Re: bugs reporters and voters should asked to agree for the final release Re: [Cooker] Final in Septembre???
On Sun 2003-09-14 at 20:18:21 +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Adam Williamson a écrit : > >On Sun, 2003-09-14 at 12:16, Simon Oosthoek wrote: > > > >>Maybe something should be done (put on the Wiki) to have a more measurable > >>quantity to verify for a release? > > > >Why? Why should some entirely arbitrarily defined quantities of "bugs" > >be a more sensible arbiter of release quality than the judgement of the > >developers? > > Maybe the bug reporters or voters should be asked if the final release > can go out without them beying solved. This could be an automatic email > sent to still not solved bugs reporters with a vote system like : [...] Why do you think some user that happened to encounter a bug is better qualified to judge whether the bug he reported is a release blocker than the QA team of Mandrake? You know, the QA team has plenty of experience and feed-back (including support requests) about which kind of bugs John Doe notices and considers unbearable. The number of votes on the bug itself should be a sufficient indicator to the QA team of how important we consider it. Really, I don't know why everyone thinks Mandrake needs advice how to run their processes. IMHO, there are only handful of people on Cooker which are involved enough to know if something goes wrong and are able to cry foul rightfully. All the others (myself included), don't really have any clue about the constraints outside of Cooker, often not even about those on Cooker list itself, and can only make heavily biased assumptions and steal time from the people doing The Real Work. Bye, Benjamin.
Re: [Cooker] Final in Septembre???
On Sun, Sep 14, 2003 at 04:22:23PM +0100, Adam Williamson wrote: > On Sun, 2003-09-14 at 12:16, Simon Oosthoek wrote: > > > Maybe something should be done (put on the Wiki) to have a more measurable > > quantity to verify for a release? > > Why? Why should some entirely arbitrarily defined quantities of "bugs" > be a more sensible arbiter of release quality than the judgement of the > developers? because these developers are personally involved with their particular package(s). And there are no developers who can say "go ahead" of the distro, they can just say that of their own packages. The Q&A department of mandrake should decide whether a release is ready, but I presume they have some quantifiable measure to decide this (even management push is quantifiable ;-). My proposal was just to get these measurements out in the open and have them referred to when this kind of discussion pops up. I also had as a first measure, ZERO critical bugs on a set of known hardware. I believe Mandrake should at least be guaranteed to work on a few well known machines. (Like the ones the Q&A department of mdk has access too). Perfect Quality is an ideal situation, it should be a goal, but not a requirement. On the way towards the goal, it would be good to attempt avoiding regressions and even set stricter requirements as well. Cheers Simon
bugs reporters and voters should asked to agree for the final release Re: [Cooker] Final in Septembre???
Adam Williamson a écrit : On Sun, 2003-09-14 at 12:16, Simon Oosthoek wrote: Maybe something should be done (put on the Wiki) to have a more measurable quantity to verify for a release? Why? Why should some entirely arbitrarily defined quantities of "bugs" be a more sensible arbiter of release quality than the judgement of the developers? Maybe the bug reporters or voters should be asked if the final release can go out without them beying solved. This could be an automatic email sent to still not solved bugs reporters with a vote system like : You are the reporter/voter of bug #x still NOT SOLVED. Would you agree Mdk x.x to be released in the current state ? Put YES or NO between brackets and reply to this email. < Dont keep this line > Vote : [] < Dont keep this line > No reply within a week is assumed YES. regards, -- Léa Gris - http://www.noiraude.net/ () Campagne du ruban texte brut contre les courriels en HTML, /\ contre les pièces jointes dans un format propriétaire.
Re: [Cooker] Final in Septembre???
On Sun, 2003-09-14 at 12:16, Simon Oosthoek wrote: > Maybe something should be done (put on the Wiki) to have a more measurable > quantity to verify for a release? Why? Why should some entirely arbitrarily defined quantities of "bugs" be a more sensible arbiter of release quality than the judgement of the developers? -- adamw
Re: [Cooker] Final in Septembre???
On Sat, Sep 13, 2003 at 06:05:51PM -0700, Todd Lyons wrote: > Emmanuel wanted us to know: > > > I agree with you but I find it so frustrating that such a good distro > > misses being a great distro on every releases. I have tried Redhat and > > Please do not use the mailing lists for trolling. It serves no purpose. Is it trolling when someone voices a concern in the best way he can come up with at that time? If this thread keeps re-occuring, there must be something to be concerned about, at least by a group of people who are more than just users of mandrake (but maybe not active developers). > EVERY damned cycle some loon tries to change the world by telling > Mandrake to hold off cause it's not ready. Every cycle, it gets delayed > a week or more from the announced schedule. That is the perfect > embodiment of management listening to the users and developers. It will > continue to be this way. Maybe something should be done (put on the Wiki) to have a more measurable quantity to verify for a release? I suggest something like this: 0 critical bugs for a certain list of well known hardware. no more than X critical bugs in the bugzilla database for any hardware. no more than Y serious bugs in the main desktop environments no more than. etc. categories like security, stability are of course very important. It's up to Mandrakesoft and the main developers to set these measures, but once set, it is clear for everyone when a release is "ready" and no discussion can be had on the when, but only on the measures. That is a good discussion to have and it will be very constructive to do so. Most importantly, this will not influence the release process by these "Trolls" as you call them. After every release people can evaluate whether a set of measures was sufficient or too strict and they can be adjusted. This is a process called "Engineering", which is known to result in quality after a certain amount of time. (I don't mean to imply that Mandrake is not using engineering practices, just that they are not very visible on the outside) Cheers Simon
Re: [Cooker] Final in Septembre???
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Emmanuel wanted us to know: > I agree with you but I find it so frustrating that such a good distro > misses being a great distro on every releases. I have tried Redhat and Please do not use the mailing lists for trolling. It serves no purpose. > I don't hink that Mandrake is bleeding edge anymore (i.e. compare > MDK9.1 and RH9, very few differences) at least not as much as it used > to be in the old days (when Mandrakesoft was run like a proper Linux > company (i.e. release software when it's ready)). Let's not forget back then: CD1 -> Main , CD2 -> Contrib now: CD1,2,3 -> Main , CD4,5 -> Contrib See a pattern here? There's LOTS more going on now. Don't start spouting cries of "run by management or developers." Of course it's run by management, but the management takes some cues from the developers. EVERY damned cycle some loon tries to change the world by telling Mandrake to hold off cause it's not ready. Every cycle, it gets delayed a week or more from the announced schedule. That is the perfect embodiment of management listening to the users and developers. It will continue to be this way. - -- Blue skies... ToddPublic key: http://www.mrball.net/todd.asc ...and I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger, those who attempt to poison and destroy my binaries, and you will know my name is root, when I lay my vengeance upon thee. Linux kernel 2.4.21-0.25mdk 4 users, load average: 0.03, 0.06, 0.07 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: http://www.mrball.net/todd.asc iD8DBQE/Y77vIBT1264ScBURAuHdAKCLxcGKPe4nExWEZwcTd2xJwu+YvgCeNLzb 7xloDi7mBvP3PUpJnDpTvHk= =oVfv -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Cooker] Final in Septembre???
El jue, 11-09-2003 a las 16:14, Michael Scherer escribió: > On Thursday 11 September 2003 18:09, Pierre Jarillon wrote: > > Le Jeudi 11 Septembre 2003 10:56, Simon Oosthoek a écrit : > > > On Thu, Sep 11, 2003 at 09:10:51AM +0100, Emmanuel wrote: > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > > > Quick question for all of you guys: will Mandrakesoft release 9.2 > > > > even if it is not ready??? i.e. is Mandrakesoft desperate to get > > > > a version out before the end of Septembre or is there any chance > > > > for a RC3 ?? i.e. does management or development rule > > > > Mandrakesoft??? > > > > > > Based on past experience, 9.2 will be released on schedule on 20th > > > of September even when it doesn't install for some people who have > > > reported serious issues for their particular hardware. I suppose > > > this is a company's way of making compromises :-( > > > > I hope a RC3. There are too much bugs in RC2 to call this a Release > > Candidate. If we compare with OOo, they made RC which was really RC. > > It is obvious that a distro is more complicated because of the great > > diversity of hardware. But the number of misses is not a problem of > > hardware. > > In fact RC2 is a beta 4. Please, make a RC3 ! Don't waste the good > > reputation of Mandrake with a lack of finition. > > This is very funny, because, _each_ release, this is the same story, > people say that rcX is not good enough and we need a rcX+1. ( and there > is always someone to make the statement i am doing ) And you forgot about the end of this " _each_release " process: Mandake goes final, and in reviews it gets a mere 7/10 score with the reviewer saying thins like "Ooh, what a pity they didn't fix that ugly bug, but other than that, it works very well!" or "My first installation attempt hung and i had to reboot it, but after that it worked ok." > There is always too much bugs. There's always too little time.
Re: [Cooker] Final in Septembre???
On Thursday 11 September 2003 04:10 am, Emmanuel wrote: > Hi all, > > Quick question for all of you guys: will Mandrakesoft release 9.2 even > if it is not ready??? i.e. is Mandrakesoft desperate to get a version > out before the end of Septembre or is there any chance for a RC3 ?? i.e. > does management or development rule Mandrakesoft??? > I'm wondering because the end of the month is only 2+ weeks away and > only 3 of the bugs I reported have been fixed (some major showstoppers > have not and no-one seems to be wanting more info). Furthermore, > everybody knows that OpenOffice 1.1 is only 2-3 weeks away, it would be > a real shame to ship 9.2 with 1.1RCx and then get users to download > 100Mb+ of software to get the final version (I can't see any major > corporation willing to do that - out of the box is very important) > I was wondering how long it was going to take for this thread to start. You can count on it just as the sun comes up every morning. BTW, please fix your reply-to. It is not needed when it is the same as your from and it screws up the reply function of most mail clients. -- /g "Outside of a dog, a man's best friend is a book, inside a dog it's too dark to read" -Groucho Marx
Re: [Cooker] Final in Septembre???
On Thu, 2003-09-11 at 09:56, Simon Oosthoek wrote: > On Thu, Sep 11, 2003 at 09:10:51AM +0100, Emmanuel wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > Quick question for all of you guys: will Mandrakesoft release 9.2 even > > if it is not ready??? i.e. is Mandrakesoft desperate to get a version > > out before the end of Septembre or is there any chance for a RC3 ?? i.e. > > does management or development rule Mandrakesoft??? > > Based on past experience, 9.2 will be released on schedule on 20th of > September even when it doesn't install for some people who have reported What past experience? Both 9.0 and 9.1 were delayed beyond their initial release dates to fix serious problems. -- adamw
Re: [Cooker] Final in Septembre???
On Fri, Sep 12, 2003 at 12:46:46AM +0800, Victor Roetman wrote: > On Friday 12 September 2003 00:09, Pierre Jarillon wrote: > > In fact RC2 is a beta 4. Please, make a RC3 ! Don't waste the good > > reputation of Mandrake with a lack of finition. > > Although I read this discussion and understand the issues involved, the fact > is that Mandrake is already getting a bit of a bad reputation. Chinese was > broken in the last release, so many people I know went to Redhat because > Chinese support was very important for them, and they don't have the ability > to fix a broken system as some of us do. It may be difficult to bring them > back. I agree with Pierre, a little more time to fix and test would be very > beneficial, not only for us as users and developers, but also for Mandrake's > reputation. I think this release is very important for Mandrake. I think every release is important... Anyway, I have some fresh figures. I am running a Mandrake mirror, and a RedHat mirror. Traffic is equal these days, or mandrake is actually 5 % more for the last month than RedHat. This is quite an improvement for Mandrake compared to about half a year ago, where redHat was double of Mandrake. I think this reflects the success of MDK 9.1. best regards keld
Re: [Cooker] Final in Septembre???
On Thursday 11 September 2003 18:09, Pierre Jarillon wrote: > Le Jeudi 11 Septembre 2003 10:56, Simon Oosthoek a écrit : > > On Thu, Sep 11, 2003 at 09:10:51AM +0100, Emmanuel wrote: > > > Hi all, > > > > > > Quick question for all of you guys: will Mandrakesoft release 9.2 > > > even if it is not ready??? i.e. is Mandrakesoft desperate to get > > > a version out before the end of Septembre or is there any chance > > > for a RC3 ?? i.e. does management or development rule > > > Mandrakesoft??? > > > > Based on past experience, 9.2 will be released on schedule on 20th > > of September even when it doesn't install for some people who have > > reported serious issues for their particular hardware. I suppose > > this is a company's way of making compromises :-( > > I hope a RC3. There are too much bugs in RC2 to call this a Release > Candidate. If we compare with OOo, they made RC which was really RC. > It is obvious that a distro is more complicated because of the great > diversity of hardware. But the number of misses is not a problem of > hardware. > In fact RC2 is a beta 4. Please, make a RC3 ! Don't waste the good > reputation of Mandrake with a lack of finition. This is very funny, because, _each_ release, this is the same story, people say that rcX is not good enough and we need a rcX+1. ( and there is always someone to make the statement i am doing ) There is always too much bugs. -- Mickaël Scherer
Re: [Cooker] Final in Septembre???
On Thu, 2003-09-11 at 18:46, Mark Belanger wrote: > On Thu, 11 Sep 2003 17:58:05 +0100 > Eric Fernandez <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Victor Roetman wrote: > > The problem is that if every Chinese user (or any other feature) wait > > for the last RC to begin to test if it works, it does not give a lot of > > time to fix the problems. You could have 5 or 6 RC, there will always be > > people who will try Mandrake when the final is released. > > Very true. How about a numbering system like > 10.0.0 - major new release > 10.1.0 - significant changes > 10.1.1 - bugfix release. Agree, and it would be nice if X.Y.z CD images were made available as well as the updates. The next release after 9,2.0 should be 10.0.0 and based on the 2.6 kernel. > Following this model, we would be in the process of releasing > 9.2.0. > When released, many users would start using it and find stuff like > the chinese problem which could then be fixed in 9.2.1 > > -Mark
Re: [Cooker] Final in Septembre???
On Thu Sep 11, 2003 at 01:46:32PM -0400, Mark Belanger wrote:
> > >>In fact RC2 is a beta 4. Please, make a RC3 ! Don't waste the good
> > >>reputation of Mandrake with a lack of finition.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >Although I read this discussion and understand the issues involved, the fact
> > >is that Mandrake is already getting a bit of a bad reputation. Chinese was
> > >broken in the last release, so many people I know went to Redhat because
> > >Chinese support was very important for them, and they don't have the ability
> > >to fix a broken system as some of us do. It may be difficult to bring them
> > >back. I agree with Pierre, a little more time to fix and test would be very
> > >beneficial, not only for us as users and developers, but also for Mandrake's
> > >reputation. I think this release is very important for Mandrake.
> > >
> > >
> > The problem is that if every Chinese user (or any other feature) wait
> > for the last RC to begin to test if it works, it does not give a lot of
> > time to fix the problems. You could have 5 or 6 RC, there will always be
> > people who will try Mandrake when the final is released.
>
> Very true. How about a numbering system like
> 10.0.0 - major new release
> 10.1.0 - significant changes
> 10.1.1 - bugfix release.
>
> Following this model, we would be in the process of releasing
> 9.2.0.
> When released, many users would start using it and find stuff like
> the chinese problem which could then be fixed in 9.2.1
Sure. Cooker was 9.2.0, when we hit freeze we were at 9.2.1 and what we
release will be 9.2.2 but we'll call it 9.2 for convenience.
How's that? =)
(Please don't start this silly numbering thread again)
--
MandrakeSoft Security; http://www.mandrakesecure.net/
Online Security Resource Book; http://linsec.ca/
"lynx -source http://linsec.ca/vdanen.asc | gpg --import"
{FE6F2AFD : 88D8 0D23 8D4B 3407 5BD7 66F9 2043 D0E5 FE6F 2AFD}
pgp0.pgp
Description: PGP signature
Re: [Cooker] Final in Septembre???
On Thu, 11 Sep 2003 17:58:05 +0100 Eric Fernandez <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Victor Roetman wrote: > > >On Friday 12 September 2003 00:09, Pierre Jarillon wrote: > > > > > >>In fact RC2 is a beta 4. Please, make a RC3 ! Don't waste the good > >>reputation of Mandrake with a lack of finition. > >> > >> > > > >Although I read this discussion and understand the issues involved, the fact > >is that Mandrake is already getting a bit of a bad reputation. Chinese was > >broken in the last release, so many people I know went to Redhat because > >Chinese support was very important for them, and they don't have the ability > >to fix a broken system as some of us do. It may be difficult to bring them > >back. I agree with Pierre, a little more time to fix and test would be very > >beneficial, not only for us as users and developers, but also for Mandrake's > >reputation. I think this release is very important for Mandrake. > > > > > The problem is that if every Chinese user (or any other feature) wait > for the last RC to begin to test if it works, it does not give a lot of > time to fix the problems. You could have 5 or 6 RC, there will always be > people who will try Mandrake when the final is released. Very true. How about a numbering system like 10.0.0 - major new release 10.1.0 - significant changes 10.1.1 - bugfix release. Following this model, we would be in the process of releasing 9.2.0. When released, many users would start using it and find stuff like the chinese problem which could then be fixed in 9.2.1 -Mark -- Mark Belanger LTX Corporation
Re: [Cooker] Final in Septembre???
Eric Fernandez wrote: Victor Roetman wrote: On Friday 12 September 2003 00:09, Pierre Jarillon wrote: In fact RC2 is a beta 4. Please, make a RC3 ! Don't waste the good reputation of Mandrake with a lack of finition. Although I read this discussion and understand the issues involved, the fact is that Mandrake is already getting a bit of a bad reputation. Chinese was broken in the last release, so many people I know went to Redhat because Chinese support was very important for them, and they don't have the ability to fix a broken system as some of us do. It may be difficult to bring them back. I agree with Pierre, a little more time to fix and test would be very beneficial, not only for us as users and developers, but also for Mandrake's reputation. I think this release is very important for Mandrake. vic The problem is that if every Chinese user (or any other feature) wait for the last RC to begin to test if it works, it does not give a lot of time to fix the problems. You could have 5 or 6 RC, there will always be people who will try Mandrake when the final is released. Eric PS : I meant "every user of Chinese language (or any other feature)" :) Eric
Re: [Cooker] Final in Septembre???
Victor Roetman wrote: On Friday 12 September 2003 00:09, Pierre Jarillon wrote: In fact RC2 is a beta 4. Please, make a RC3 ! Don't waste the good reputation of Mandrake with a lack of finition. Although I read this discussion and understand the issues involved, the fact is that Mandrake is already getting a bit of a bad reputation. Chinese was broken in the last release, so many people I know went to Redhat because Chinese support was very important for them, and they don't have the ability to fix a broken system as some of us do. It may be difficult to bring them back. I agree with Pierre, a little more time to fix and test would be very beneficial, not only for us as users and developers, but also for Mandrake's reputation. I think this release is very important for Mandrake. vic The problem is that if every Chinese user (or any other feature) wait for the last RC to begin to test if it works, it does not give a lot of time to fix the problems. You could have 5 or 6 RC, there will always be people who will try Mandrake when the final is released. Eric
Re: [Cooker] Final in Septembre???
On Friday 12 September 2003 00:09, Pierre Jarillon wrote: > In fact RC2 is a beta 4. Please, make a RC3 ! Don't waste the good > reputation of Mandrake with a lack of finition. Although I read this discussion and understand the issues involved, the fact is that Mandrake is already getting a bit of a bad reputation. Chinese was broken in the last release, so many people I know went to Redhat because Chinese support was very important for them, and they don't have the ability to fix a broken system as some of us do. It may be difficult to bring them back. I agree with Pierre, a little more time to fix and test would be very beneficial, not only for us as users and developers, but also for Mandrake's reputation. I think this release is very important for Mandrake. vic
Re: [Cooker] Final in Septembre???
Le Jeudi 11 Septembre 2003 18:09, Pierre Jarillon a écrit : > I hope a RC3. There are too much bugs in RC2 to call this a Release > Candidate. If we compare with OOo, they made RC which was really RC. It is > obvious that a distro is more complicated because of the great diversity of > hardware. But the number of misses is not a problem of hardware. > In fact RC2 is a beta 4. Please, make a RC3 ! Don't waste the good > reputation of Mandrake with a lack of finition. I agree. Without doing something complicated, a lot of bugs are found in this release. I know that fixing bugs is irratting specially when you can't reproduce them well, but we are releasing a 9.2 version, not a 10.0 -> this should be stable as rock. Nowadays, comparing distributions is noted with : new packages availables, and no bugs found. the first is ok. Let's take another week more to debug. If the boss isn't ok, hide the Master CD rewriter :) Emmanuel
Re: [Cooker] Final in Septembre???
Le Jeudi 11 Septembre 2003 10:56, Simon Oosthoek a écrit : > On Thu, Sep 11, 2003 at 09:10:51AM +0100, Emmanuel wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > Quick question for all of you guys: will Mandrakesoft release 9.2 even > > if it is not ready??? i.e. is Mandrakesoft desperate to get a version > > out before the end of Septembre or is there any chance for a RC3 ?? i.e. > > does management or development rule Mandrakesoft??? > > Based on past experience, 9.2 will be released on schedule on 20th of > September even when it doesn't install for some people who have reported > serious issues for their particular hardware. I suppose this is a company's > way of making compromises :-( I hope a RC3. There are too much bugs in RC2 to call this a Release Candidate. If we compare with OOo, they made RC which was really RC. It is obvious that a distro is more complicated because of the great diversity of hardware. But the number of misses is not a problem of hardware. In fact RC2 is a beta 4. Please, make a RC3 ! Don't waste the good reputation of Mandrake with a lack of finition. -- Pierre Jarillon - http://pjarillon.free.fr/ Vice-président de l'ABUL : http://abul.org/
Re: [Cooker] Final in Septembre???
Hi all, I seem to be very bad in getting my point acros (which is actually positive!) So before I reply specifically to some points, I want to explicitly say THANK YOU to all who contribute to Mandrake and Linux in advance, since that is something that I imply by using Mandrake (although you couldn't have known that from my face, which you didn't see ;-) On Thu, Sep 11, 2003 at 01:23:35PM +0200, Buchan Milne wrote: > Simon Oosthoek wrote: > > > > Based on past experience, 9.2 will be released on schedule on 20th of > > September even when it doesn't install for some people who have reported > > serious issues for their particular hardware. > > Well, it we wait until everyone's hardware is supported, the whole > distribution is likely to be 3 months behind everyone else's. I know and understand! > If you really want to have your hardware supported, and no-one has > managed to yet, jump in, test patches, report the results, maybe Thomas > will be able to merge a patch you report as working, and then push it > upstream. My experience is that I have a very difficult laptop and very little time to test stuff. I do what I can, but that's obviously not enough. I live with it :-( > Not only the company. Or do you want to keep the distro in freeze until > KDE3.2 is out so we can install ancient software on the hardware that is > current now, in 3 month's time? No, but I have different priorities, somewhat more conservative regarding features. > I don't think Mandrake is planning on releasing an update for > OpenOffice.org. unless a security bug is found, I assume... > > Probably there will be lots of "security" updates and bugfixes > announced in > > the first 2-3 months after the release of 9.2. Which is probably > better than > > not providing them at all ;-) > > Well, some bugs aren't found until the software is deployed, so if we > wait for all bugs to be fixed, we will still find new ones. true, but that is what a feature freeze is for, stabilising the system to test all the interactions of bugfixes and prevent new bugs from being introduced. I would prefer a longer freeze period, but I'm not the release manager. (In fact, I'm mostly a user/sysadmin) > > Anyway, I share your concerns, but they are/will be ignored completely by > > the Mandrake development process. > > Wow, thanks for the confidence in those people who maintain software in > the distro but aren't employed by Mandrakesoft. Ok, that didn't come out right, I'm sorry! I think I meant that a vague statement of a user that something "doesn't work" is not enough to stop a release. But I probably thought it obvious and forgot to mention it... > > PS, if I sound cynical, I am! > > And some of your statements seem unfounded ... well, maybe I forgot to qualify them, but the cynical bit comes from the difference in priority for me versus the Mandrake development process. > > But Mandrake still rules the desktop for me. > > I've learnt to live with all the cuts and bruises Mandrake's products > cause > > me, but look at all my cool scars! > > I get fewer scars on Mandrake that the other distros I have run in > production ... and I get features most other distros don't even know about. I only have a few Debian systems, all the other machines I manage are Mandrake 9.1 or Solaris. At work I setup a system with Linux servers (Mandrake/Debian) and Mandrake 9.1 desktops (about 16!) and a few Windows clients. The only real problems I have are with Printing (unstable with CUPS and Linux clients) and with Evolution, due to gconf's lock problems over NFS. Lately I noticed some problems with /var partitions filling up with logfiles, because they filled faster than logrotate rotates. Overal, Mandrake suites me, mostly because of the packaging with urpmi. Hopefully, this puts my earlier e-mail into perspective... I'm only trying to help! Cheers Simon
Re: [Cooker] Final in Septembre???
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Simon Oosthoek wrote: > On Thu, Sep 11, 2003 at 09:10:51AM +0100, Emmanuel wrote: > >>Hi all, >> >>Quick question for all of you guys: will Mandrakesoft release 9.2 even >>if it is not ready??? i.e. is Mandrakesoft desperate to get a version >>out before the end of Septembre or is there any chance for a RC3 ?? i.e. >>does management or development rule Mandrakesoft??? > > > Based on past experience, 9.2 will be released on schedule on 20th of > September even when it doesn't install for some people who have reported > serious issues for their particular hardware. Well, it we wait until everyone's hardware is supported, the whole distribution is likely to be 3 months behind everyone else's. Some hardware issues can be fixed post-release (as Thomas proved). If you really want to have your hardware supported, and no-one has managed to yet, jump in, test patches, report the results, maybe Thomas will be able to merge a patch you report as working, and then push it upstream. > I suppose this is a company's > way of making compromises :-( Not only the company. Or do you want to keep the distro in freeze until KDE3.2 is out so we can install ancient software on the hardware that is current now, in 3 month's time? > > >>I'm wondering because the end of the month is only 2+ weeks away and >>only 3 of the bugs I reported have been fixed (some major showstoppers >>have not and no-one seems to be wanting more info). Wow, 3 bugs in about 4000 in this release cycle! Maybe: 1)Your bug report didn't indicate the seriousness 2)Wasn't easy enough to reproduce (hardware problems are always difficult) 3)Duplicates. Some bug reports get missed, and since you haven't provided your bug numbers, it's impossible for anyone to review them. > Furthermore, >>everybody knows that OpenOffice 1.1 is only 2-3 weeks away, it would be >>a real shame to ship 9.2 with 1.1RCx and then get users to download >>100Mb+ of software to get the final version (I can't see any major >>corporation willing to do that - out of the box is very important) > > > openoffice 1.1 will be in 9.2, whether it's rc3/rc4 or final depends on how > soon they are released. BTW, apparently RC4 will be identical to final unless a major bug is found in the next few days. 1.1 final should be out next week. Gwenole would not have had time to build RC4 for the 9.2RC2 ISO, which is why it had RC3 with about 6 patches from IZ. I don't think Mandrake is planning on releasing an update for OpenOffice.org. > > Probably there will be lots of "security" updates and bugfixes announced in > the first 2-3 months after the release of 9.2. Which is probably better than > not providing them at all ;-) Well, some bugs aren't found until the software is deployed, so if we wait for all bugs to be fixed, we will still find new ones. > Anyway, I share your concerns, but they are/will be ignored completely by > the Mandrake development process. Wow, thanks for the confidence in those people who maintain software in the distro but aren't employed by Mandrakesoft. This *is* the development process, and many people (including those at Mandrakesoft) share some of your concerns. > Despite this, positive reviews of mandrake > keep coming and customers seem to be satisfied (in general, AFAIK). If you > cannot stand this way of working, use Red Hat, Suse, or even Debian. They > have slightly less bleeding edge releases ;-) Right. RH9 with a broken glibc (couldn't handle large numbers of groups, was only fixed about 2 months after their release), RH8 was changing between cvs snapshots of glibc2.3 and patched glibc2.2 throughout their beta series, samba-3 only in RH's current beta (Mandrake 9.2 will default to 2.2.x but have 3 available). Of course, Debian users can choose between samba-2.2.3a (ancient, missing many features and bugfixes) and samba-3.0.0beta at present (a few Debian users on our LUG had problems due to Debian including samba3 way too early). > PS, if I sound cynical, I am! And some of your statements seem unfounded ... > But Mandrake still rules the desktop for me. > I've learnt to live with all the cuts and bruises Mandrake's products cause > me, but look at all my cool scars! I get fewer scars on Mandrake that the other distros I have run in production ... and I get features most other distros don't even know about. Regards, Buchan - -- |--Another happy Mandrake Club member--| Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager Cellphone * Work+27 82 472 2231 * +27 21 8828820x202 Stellenbosch Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za GPG Key http://ranger.dnsalias.com/bgmilne.asc 1024D/60D204A7 2919 E232 5610 A038 87B1 72D6 AC92 BA50 60D2 04A7 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/YFs3rJK6UGDSBKcRAva9AKCcWG3nG6WZ+PcfBF66HaY6xhKciACdFUzz IF
Re: [Cooker] Final in Septembre???
I agree with you but I find it so frustrating that such a good distro misses being a great distro on every releases. I have tried Redhat and Debian but for some reason I always come back to Mandrake. To be fair, I don't hink that Mandrake is bleeding edge anymore (i.e. compare MDK9.1 and RH9, very few differences) at least not as much as it used to be in the old days (when Mandrakesoft was run like a proper Linux company (i.e. release software when it's ready)). Let's not forget that MDK was forked from RH to create a viable desktop distro but if you look at the desktop improvements between 9 and 9.2, they are only "minor" (i.e. they have not achieve anything that other distros haven't). I do hope that 10 will be the best ever. Emmanuel Simon Oosthoek wrote: On Thu, Sep 11, 2003 at 09:10:51AM +0100, Emmanuel wrote: Hi all, Quick question for all of you guys: will Mandrakesoft release 9.2 even if it is not ready??? i.e. is Mandrakesoft desperate to get a version out before the end of Septembre or is there any chance for a RC3 ?? i.e. does management or development rule Mandrakesoft??? Based on past experience, 9.2 will be released on schedule on 20th of September even when it doesn't install for some people who have reported serious issues for their particular hardware. I suppose this is a company's way of making compromises :-( I'm wondering because the end of the month is only 2+ weeks away and only 3 of the bugs I reported have been fixed (some major showstoppers have not and no-one seems to be wanting more info). Furthermore, everybody knows that OpenOffice 1.1 is only 2-3 weeks away, it would be a real shame to ship 9.2 with 1.1RCx and then get users to download 100Mb+ of software to get the final version (I can't see any major corporation willing to do that - out of the box is very important) openoffice 1.1 will be in 9.2, whether it's rc3/rc4 or final depends on how soon they are released. Probably there will be lots of "security" updates and bugfixes announced in the first 2-3 months after the release of 9.2. Which is probably better than not providing them at all ;-) Anyway, I share your concerns, but they are/will be ignored completely by the Mandrake development process. Despite this, positive reviews of mandrake keep coming and customers seem to be satisfied (in general, AFAIK). If you cannot stand this way of working, use Red Hat, Suse, or even Debian. They have slightly less bleeding edge releases ;-) Cheers Simon PS, if I sound cynical, I am! But Mandrake still rules the desktop for me. I've learnt to live with all the cuts and bruises Mandrake's products cause me, but look at all my cool scars!
Re: [Cooker] Final in Septembre???
On Thu, Sep 11, 2003 at 09:10:51AM +0100, Emmanuel wrote: > Hi all, > > Quick question for all of you guys: will Mandrakesoft release 9.2 even > if it is not ready??? i.e. is Mandrakesoft desperate to get a version > out before the end of Septembre or is there any chance for a RC3 ?? i.e. > does management or development rule Mandrakesoft??? Based on past experience, 9.2 will be released on schedule on 20th of September even when it doesn't install for some people who have reported serious issues for their particular hardware. I suppose this is a company's way of making compromises :-( > I'm wondering because the end of the month is only 2+ weeks away and > only 3 of the bugs I reported have been fixed (some major showstoppers > have not and no-one seems to be wanting more info). Furthermore, > everybody knows that OpenOffice 1.1 is only 2-3 weeks away, it would be > a real shame to ship 9.2 with 1.1RCx and then get users to download > 100Mb+ of software to get the final version (I can't see any major > corporation willing to do that - out of the box is very important) openoffice 1.1 will be in 9.2, whether it's rc3/rc4 or final depends on how soon they are released. Probably there will be lots of "security" updates and bugfixes announced in the first 2-3 months after the release of 9.2. Which is probably better than not providing them at all ;-) Anyway, I share your concerns, but they are/will be ignored completely by the Mandrake development process. Despite this, positive reviews of mandrake keep coming and customers seem to be satisfied (in general, AFAIK). If you cannot stand this way of working, use Red Hat, Suse, or even Debian. They have slightly less bleeding edge releases ;-) Cheers Simon PS, if I sound cynical, I am! But Mandrake still rules the desktop for me. I've learnt to live with all the cuts and bruises Mandrake's products cause me, but look at all my cool scars!
