Re: [Cooker] more on LM8.0 beta2
On Thursday 29 March 2001 12:29, Eleknader wrote: | |And by the way, I use Mandrake because it is pentium optimized, not |because of something you call a nice gui. | | It's great that Mandrake is pentium optimized. But, for a user point of | wiev: | | I need just one window manager and one desktop. Just _one_. | I'd like to set up things with tools that have exactly the same look and | feel. Problem is that it's rather hard to choose those "one Window manager" and "one desktop". As you see, some LM users choose Gnome, some - KDE. There are also users out there who hate (dislike) both Gnome and KDE... And they use some exotic WM's like evilwm or ratpoison. What I really like in Mandrake that Mandrake guys give us: -- possibility to choose (11 WM's) -- Distribution is still on 4 CD's not on 6 (like SuSE). -- compiler (gcc 2.95 in LM 7.2, patched gcc 2.96 in LM 8.0) can compile important libs/apps, like KDE 2.1 or Gnome 1.4 - without segfault, missing libs, etc. -- I can install Gnome and try "what it is" even if I don't use it. I am on slow connection (56K dialup) so I can't download ISO images or rsync Cooker. So, I select favourite app (KDE 2.x in my case) and download/compile only it. 50MB is so much different from 1.2GB... | | We have a great environment (libralies, tools etc) that are free, and | they work | wery well. Those tools are KDE libraries and KDE Control Center. | Actually, I'd like to be 3rd (all already 4th ?) in backing system-wide KDE control center. For example, i came to my brother's office with laptop and needed to connect to Win2000-based network. Installed DHCP, login - and I don't see network. I am not so familiar with Linux internals, and don't know where to tune details for DHCP client. In NT/Win98 - you can see network if you have support for this installed. Natural way, from my point of view, is to have settings in KDE Control Center, like: - DHCP client - On/Off, then necessary confid details - DHCP server - On/Off, then again details And so on for other parts of the system. Reading man pages is *not the right way* to learn/use Linux!.. | If most people were working for the same goal, maybe we could beat Win in | issues of GUI simplicity etc. There is no use trying to reinvent the | wheel. | Right. -- Vadim Plessky http://kde2.newmail.ru (English) http://kde2.newmail.ru/index_rus.html (Russian) Do you have Arial font installed? Just test it! http://kde2.newmail.ru/font_test_arial.html
RE: [Cooker] more on LM8.0 beta2
Dans l'article [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Eleknader" [EMAIL PROTECTED] a crit : I'd also like to set up a keyboard shortcut for launching an application in KDE. Mandrake should not try to use Menudrake, since it does not work OK. Could you elaborate on that point ? What is broken in menudrake ? I've made a lot of corrections on it.. -- Frdric Crozat MandrakeSoft
RE: [Cooker] more on LM8.0 beta2
Dans l'article [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Eleknader" [EMAIL PROTECTED] a crit : I'd also like to set up a keyboard shortcut for launching an application in KDE. Mandrake should not try to use Menudrake, since it does not work OK. Could you elaborate on that point ? What is broken in menudrake ? I've made a lot of corrections on it.. To be more exact: Menudrake itself works OK. But, KDE menus in Mandrake 7.2 are not shown properly. K-menu items that have scandic characters like a-umlaut () etc are not shown correctly. Some of these characters are not shown at all (names are shorter) and in some cases there are question marks in place of them. AFAIK K-menu items are coded in UTF-8, and this might be the source of trouble. This has not been corrected with any KDE update so far. If this has been corrected, I'm wrong but very happy to be wrong... If you need a screenshot or want to ask something, please contact me! I've seen some other people asking this too (I've asked about a solution in Cooker too), but nobody seems to care. I hope this is not the level of quality Mandrake will have in future. Eleknader
RE: [Cooker] more on LM8.0 beta2
Dans l'article [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Eleknader" [EMAIL PROTECTED] a crit : To be more exact: Menudrake itself works OK. But, KDE menus in Mandrake 7.2 are not shown properly. K-menu items that have scandic characters like a-umlaut () etc are not shown correctly. Some of these characters are not shown at all (names are shorter) and in some cases there are question marks in place of them. AFAIK K-menu items are coded in UTF-8, and this might be the source of trouble. This has not been corrected with any KDE update so far. If this has been corrected, I'm wrong but very happy to be wrong... Could you test cooker version of menudrake AND kde ? Keep in mind this is cooker mailing list and we are trying to correct menudrake for 8.0 (but there is not many time left..) -- Frdric Crozat MandrakeSoft
[Fwd: Re: [Cooker] more on LM8.0 beta2]
forwarding to the list I meant to send this to the list, but it doesn't have the Reply to header set to the list. Most other messages (but not all) from the list have the Reply to header set to the list, which made me think the list software sets that header. Does it? Should it? (It seems to on emails I send to the list.) Thanks, Randy Kramer I just want to second Sarang's proposals for name changes. Thanks, Randy Kramer Sarang Lakare wrote: - I have said this before.. but I am repeating.. give good names to your configuration programs. Can anybody tell me what sort of order is there in these names? : DrakConf, mousedrake, XFDrake, draknet etc.. First of all the "drake" comes anywhere.. there is no thought given to cases.. "drake" is sometimes "drak" (draknet etc.)... I propose to get rid of that "drake" word.. it may be very obvious to people at LM, but its strange for others/new_users. Mandrake is now pretty famous and they don't need to put "drake" into every other name. Here is a my new proposal for naming: "setup" - to setup/configure u're system by default, setup will run DrakConf (yes.. now u can simply simlink setup - DrakConf and keep those "drake" names which are obvious to you) "setup" will take parameters.. "setup mouse" will start mousedrake, "setup X" will start XFDrake, "setup network" will start draknet and so on... This is very similar to the excellent "service service_name start/stop/status".. as a heavy user, i find such things really simple.. I work with RH, SUSE and others too.. and I hate that all distros have their own names for setting up stuff.. so please think seriously about this issue.. its a simple question of writing a script called "setup" which will look at the input and run the appropriate command. So in future even if u decide to change the names of u're executables, it'll be always transparent to the end-user. Same goes with the desktop.. why "DrakConf" and that not-so-professional-looking icon for configuration? Why not simply name it "Setup" or "System Configuration"?? Internall it'll run DrakConf .. thats fine.. but why are u forcing user to remember "DrakConf"? Again this is very easy for u guys to do.. I have a lot of really good people here and when they ask how to setup something, I am surprised.. coz even though they work on the machine, they often miss that "DrakConf" icon on the screen.. firstly coz the icon is not-so-obvious, and secondly, coz the name "DrakConf" is not-so-obvious. So pleassseee change this! - Add a call to DrakConf from inside Gnome and KDE control centers.. that way users have a central place to go to all the time. Thats it.. hoping to see these trivial but very important modifications before the next beta.. People who have earlier given excellent reviews for LM 7.2 and who rated it as the best distro, are now doing the same to SUSE.. coz they have done real improvements to the GUI (although they are still behind you guys in terms of h/w detection and they don't have ISOs!!!). Implement the above suggestions and see u're ratings gove past SUSE 7.1 again! Remember that the above suggestions are from a person not working at MandrakeSoft, is a heavy user of linux, deals with a lot of distros and understands what new users/newbies are looking for! thanks for reading sarang PS : This is the right time for you guys to change names and implement a new policy.. since u are moving from 7.2 to 8.0.. Also remember that I am not saying get rid of "DrakConf" name.. it'll still be there.. but in all u're demos, tutorials, teach the user to use "setup", "setup mouse" etc.. Those who do remember DrakConf will be able to run it anyway!
Re: [Cooker] more on LM8.0 beta2
So sprach Eleknader am Thu, Mar 29, 2001 at 03:29:54PM +0300: We have a great environment (libralies, tools etc) that are free, and they work wery well. Those tools are KDE libraries and KDE Control Center. Or GNOME and gnomecc... Mandrake should not try to use Menudrake, since it does not work OK. Why doesn't menudrake work? Okay, I don't use KDE and thus I don't care about KDE - but in GNOME they look alright. Alexander Skwar -- How to quote: http://learn.to/quote (german) http://quote.6x.to (english) Homepage: http://www.digitalprojects.com | http://www.iso-top.de iso-top.de - Die guenstige Art an Linux Distributionen zu kommen Uptime: 0 hours 24 minutes
RE: [Cooker] more on LM8.0 beta2
My two cents... your GUIs till now) look really horrible. They are nowhere compared to Qt/KDE GUIs.. this could be because i work with them under KDE.. if that is the case then you guys shld make sure that gtk gets a theme which looks good under both KDE and GNOME.. right now they simply suck... and thats the reason why i say that it could be because of Gtk.. I know for sure that Qt and KDE applications look the same under GNOME.. and hence if I were you, I would prefer Qt.. And what did you do to help? And by the way, I use Mandrake because it is pentium optimized, not because of something you call a nice gui. It's great that Mandrake is pentium optimized. But, for a user point of wiev: I need just one window manager and one desktop. Just _one_. I'd like to set up things with tools that have exactly the same look and feel. We have a great environment (libralies, tools etc) that are free, and they work wery well. Those tools are KDE libraries and KDE Control Center. If most people were working for the same goal, maybe we could beat Win in issues of GUI simplicity etc. There is no use trying to reinvent the wheel. I'd also like to set up a keyboard shortcut for launching an application in KDE. Mandrake should not try to use Menudrake, since it does not work OK. so now hackers have a new library to hack! And people with big mouths have to learn to shut them up. What about "free" in sense of freedom of speech? Regards, Eleknader
Re: [Cooker] more on LM8.0 beta2
On Thursday 29 March 2001 07:39, Sarang Lakare wrote: - PLEASE IMPROVE GUI!! are the artists at LM listening? rpmdrake looks yuck to say the least (sorry!).. Just compare kpackage and rpmdrake.. they are MILES apart in looks.. And if u say looks don't matter.. then go use debian/slackware/redhat.. We expect cool GUIs from LM.. I have suggested this b4 and will again suggest it.. USE QT There is nothing like Qt out there.. If you keep using Gtk, u're GUIs will always suck.. Again, for those who don't want to use/keep Qt on u're machines, go use debian/slackware/red-hat.. Hey , don't be so extremist . Just matter of taste . Look.. I am not being an extremist.. its a fact that the current (and all your GUIs till now) look really horrible. They are nowhere compared to Qt/KDE GUIs.. this could be because i work with them under KDE.. if that is the case then you guys shld make sure that gtk gets a theme which looks good under both KDE and GNOME.. right now they simply suck... and thats the reason why i say that it could be because of Gtk.. I know for sure that Qt and KDE applications look the same under GNOME.. and hence if I were you, I would prefer Qt.. [...] I second this (just in case anyone is listening) -- Linux Mandrake release 7.2 (Odyssey) for i586 KDE 2.1 Linux 2.2.17-27mdkWin4Lin, Uptime 2 hours 49 minutes
Re: [Cooker] more on LM8.0 beta2
So sprach Sarang Lakare am Wed, Mar 28, 2001 at 09:35:36PM -0500: b4 and will again suggest it.. USE QT There is nothing like Qt out Okay, you like the look of Qt - I don't. Now what? I can't stand how Qt looks, and please don't tell me to piss off - I don't like this either! Gtk is more flexible and the themes look nicer. - I have said this before.. but I am repeating.. give good names to your configuration programs. Can anybody tell me what sort of order is there in these names? : DrakConf, mousedrake, XFDrake, draknet etc.. First of all the "drake" comes anywhere.. there is no thought given to cases.. "drake" is sometimes "drak" (draknet etc.)... I propose to get rid of that "drake" word.. it may be very obvious to people at LM, but its strange for others/new_users. Mandrake is now pretty famous and they don't need to put "drake" into every other name. I disagree. All the Mandrake tools should be named DrakeXY IMHO. This would make very clear that this is a Mandrake tool, and would also allow easy finding of the tools on the CLI. Just type DrakeTABTAB and you'll see a list of all the Drake tools available. Same goes with the desktop.. why "DrakConf" and that not-so-professional-looking icon for configuration? Why not simply name it "Setup" or "System Configuration"?? Internall it'll run DrakConf .. thats fine.. but why are u forcing user to remember "DrakConf"? Again this is very Something I don't like about the way you write - you try to press you're opinions on others. Sorry to say this, but I don't know - somehow all you're kewlness makes your texts hard to read. I'm not attacking you now: For this reason, it seems like you're a 12 year old who doesn't know how to write (somewhat) correctly. Again: Don't take it personally, it's not meant that way. PS : This is the right time for you guys to change names and implement a new policy.. since u are moving from 7.2 to 8.0.. Also remember that I am not Maybe you're a little, naah, a lot too late. Mandrake 8.0 is already at Beta 2, and I doubt that the Mandrake guys will do such a drastic move at such a late stage... Alexander Skwar -- How to quote: http://learn.to/quote (german) http://quote.6x.to (english) Homepage: http://www.digitalprojects.com | http://www.iso-top.de iso-top.de - Die guenstige Art an Linux Distributionen zu kommen Uptime: 0 hours 32 minutes
Re: [Cooker] more on LM8.0 beta2
On 29 Mar 2001 09:01:08 +0200, Klaas Barends wrote: Look.. I am not being an extremist.. its a fact that the current (and all your GUIs till now) look really horrible. They are nowhere compared to Qt/KDE GUIs.. this could be because i work with them under KDE.. if that is the case then you guys shld make sure that gtk gets a theme which looks good under both KDE and GNOME.. right now they simply suck... and thats the reason why i say that it could be because of Gtk.. I know for sure that Qt and KDE applications look the same under GNOME.. and hence if I were you, I would prefer Qt.. And what did you do to help? And by the way, I use Mandrake because it is pentium optimized, not because of something you call a nice gui. so now hackers have a new library to hack! And people with big mouths have to learn to shut them up. -- mvg. Klaas Barends GBU InternetServices http://www.gbu-is.nl/ I learned to keep mine shut and will continue doing so until I become a better and more involved developer.
RE: [Cooker] more on LM8.0 beta2
If most people were working for the same goal, maybe we could beat Win Stop fighting, children. We do need to work together. On the other hand, let us not all be sheep, that's for the dozer users. Comrades, let us unite! And let us also think as individuals. Just feeling philisophical. Blue Lizard
Re: [Cooker] more on LM8.0 beta2
Sarang Lakare [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hi, Here are some more impressions/experiences with LM8.0 Beta2 [...] SUGGESTIONS: - PLEASE IMPROVE GUI!! are the artists at LM listening? rpmdrake looks yuck to say the least (sorry!).. Just compare kpackage and rpmdrake.. they are MILES apart in looks.. And if u say looks don't matter.. then go use debian/slackware/redhat.. We expect cool GUIs from LM.. I have suggested this b4 and will again suggest it.. USE QT There is nothing like Qt out there.. If you keep using Gtk, u're GUIs will always suck.. Again, for those who don't want to use/keep Qt on u're machines, go use debian/slackware/red-hat.. Hey , don't be so extremist . Just matter of taste . For those people I would like to ask : Why are you using Netscape??? Is the code open? why do u use real-player?? What has Qt done that everybody is against it? They have an open-source product which is GPLed.. And before it was , hackers got used to code in GTK ;) what more do u want??? remember that enterprise has money and so they'll buy when they want to sell proprietery product.. there is nothign wrong in that. If LM were to use Qt, their GUIs will look awesome! An ideal solution would be to use Qt, but have 2 versions of all GUIs.. one based on KDE and other Qt-only.. it won't be too difficult.. simply change the main.C and compile again don't use any KDE widgets Give us fuel (resources time ) to do so . - Please mention if u are using LILO or GRUB? The boot screen is simply awesome, but there is no mention that its a OS chooser.. A small note at the bottom of the screen saying this is LILO or GRUB won't affect! Will be considered . Francois ?? [...] - urpmi shld be case insensitive. For eg. i wanted to install mySQL devel package.. so i obv. said "urpmi mysql" and it showed me 2 packages which i didn't understand what the were.. after searching for mysql on the web, i found that its actually MySQL! rpm is case sensitive :( [...] - urpmi shld ask b4 installing all the dependency packages... Huh! that's the case . I think it shld [...] - I have said this before.. but I am repeating.. give good names to your configuration programs. Can anybody tell me what sort of order is there in these names? : DrakConf, mousedrake, XFDrake, draknet etc.. To make you happy , i just linked DrakConf to mcc (standing for Mandrake control Center ) First of all the "drake" comes anywhere.. there is no thought given to cases.. "drake" is sometimes "drak" (draknet etc.)... I propose to get rid of that "drake" word.. it may be very obvious to people at LM, but its strange for others/new_users. Mandrake is now pretty famous and they don't need to put "drake" into every other name. Thanx for this inputs, /methink that this should be discussed seriously. Here is a my new proposal for naming: "setup" - to setup/configure u're system by default, setup will run DrakConf (yes.. now u can simply simlink setup - DrakConf and keep those "drake" names which are obvious to you) And what should we do with the genuine setup binary on the system ?? "setup" will take parameters.. "setup mouse" will start mousedrake, "setup X" [...] - Add a call to DrakConf from inside Gnome and KDE control centers.. that way users have a central place to go to all the time. Good idea .
Re: [Cooker] more on LM8.0 beta2
- PLEASE IMPROVE GUI!! are the artists at LM listening? rpmdrake looks yuck to say the least (sorry!).. Just compare kpackage and rpmdrake.. they are MILES apart in looks.. And if u say looks don't matter.. then go use debian/slackware/redhat.. We expect cool GUIs from LM.. I have suggested this b4 and will again suggest it.. USE QT There is nothing like Qt out there.. If you keep using Gtk, u're GUIs will always suck.. Again, for those who don't want to use/keep Qt on u're machines, go use debian/slackware/red-hat.. Hey , don't be so extremist . Just matter of taste . Look.. I am not being an extremist.. its a fact that the current (and all your GUIs till now) look really horrible. They are nowhere compared to Qt/KDE GUIs.. this could be because i work with them under KDE.. if that is the case then you guys shld make sure that gtk gets a theme which looks good under both KDE and GNOME.. right now they simply suck... and thats the reason why i say that it could be because of Gtk.. I know for sure that Qt and KDE applications look the same under GNOME.. and hence if I were you, I would prefer Qt.. For those people I would like to ask : Why are you using Netscape??? Is the code open? why do u use real-player?? What has Qt done that everybody is against it? They have an open-source product which is GPLed.. And before it was , hackers got used to code in GTK ;) so now hackers have a new library to hack! what more do u want??? remember that enterprise has money and so they'll buy when they want to sell proprietery product.. there is nothign wrong in that. If LM were to use Qt, their GUIs will look awesome! An ideal solution would be to use Qt, but have 2 versions of all GUIs.. one based on KDE and other Qt-only.. it won't be too difficult.. simply change the main.C and compile again don't use any KDE widgets Give us fuel (resources time ) to do so . I am giving all the help i can.. by making LM look/feel better, u'll sell more copies and u'll get more fuel!.. if u don't improve the look and feel, there will be many who will float away to SUSE.. I don't want to see LM getting bad reviews.. Read yesterday's review of SUSE on the Duke of the URL.. they have soo much praise for their GUIs.. and they really look good and professional.. you guys seriously need to improve the looks. Business people demand professionalism and home users demand decent looks.. both of which are laking right now (and the contrast between them and KDE adds more to it!) - Please mention if u are using LILO or GRUB? The boot screen is simply awesome, but there is no mention that its a OS chooser.. A small note at the bottom of the screen saying this is LILO or GRUB won't affect! Will be considered . Francois ?? Maybe "using LILO ver..." or "using GRUB ver ..." such small things go a long way when trying to help someone out! btw, if right now i want to do "linux 3".. how do i do? earlier atleast it used to show the menu below... maybe u shld have a "press esc to go to traditional view" implemented and written there? [...] - urpmi shld be case insensitive. For eg. i wanted to install mySQL devel package.. so i obv. said "urpmi mysql" and it showed me 2 packages which i didn't understand what the were.. after searching for mysql on the web, i found that its actually MySQL! rpm is case sensitive :( hmm.. isn't it possible to add insensitivity inside or urpmi? - urpmi shld ask b4 installing all the dependency packages... Huh! that's the case . No.. I mean b4 installing every package.. right now it asks only at the beginning.. what if i want to install some of them and not all..? - I have said this before.. but I am repeating.. give good names to your configuration programs. Can anybody tell me what sort of order is there in these names? : DrakConf, mousedrake, XFDrake, draknet etc.. To make you happy , i just linked DrakConf to mcc (standing for Mandrake control Center ) hmm.. but isn't that another name to remember?? My whole point was to make LM more and more user-friendly.. and that u can do only by using names which are obvious.. thast why i suggested "setup".. I don't know which setup binary u are talking about below? there is no setup command in LM 7.2 nad LM 8.0.. And if setup is not available for any reason, then think of something that will be obvious to any linux/unix user.. like "conf" or "configure"?? If you keep adding more Mandrake-specific names, you are simply framenting linux (as in the distributions) bit by bit.. "linuxconf" is a cool name.. u could use that too.. and have "linuxconf -redhat" run the red hat version!.. SUSE and others are also doing the same stupidity by giving their own names to utilities. Again, "setup" is the best i feel.. and i see no reason why u can't use it! First of all the "drake" comes anywhere.. there is no thought given to cases.. "drake" is sometimes
Re: [Cooker] more on LM8.0 beta2
Look.. I am not being an extremist.. its a fact that the current (and all your GUIs till now) look really horrible. They are nowhere compared to Qt/KDE GUIs.. this could be because i work with them under KDE.. if that is the case then you guys shld make sure that gtk gets a theme which looks good under both KDE and GNOME.. right now they simply suck... and thats the reason why i say that it could be because of Gtk.. I know for sure that Qt and KDE applications look the same under GNOME.. and hence if I were you, I would prefer Qt.. And what did you do to help? And by the way, I use Mandrake because it is pentium optimized, not because of something you call a nice gui. so now hackers have a new library to hack! And people with big mouths have to learn to shut them up. -- mvg. Klaas Barends GBU InternetServices http://www.gbu-is.nl/
