Re: OT: desktop advocacy (was Re: [Cooker] whose bright idea?)
On Mon, 10 Mar 2003, Michael Scherer wrote: I still don't know how thing can be as they are even with Sun's enginners working on usability. How much people are trying to do a good desktop with gnome ? And how many people does it take to write a good dialog ! Look, if you really don't know what you're talking about, just keep quiet OK? The file chooser is one of the most (if not THE most) touchy subjects in GNOME development land. *It is being worked on*, and suffice it to say it's not as easy as just drawing up a new dialog. And, I am pretty sure that's only because GNOME should not look like windows... BS. -- Reinout van SchouwenArtificial Intelligence student email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]mobile phone: +31-6-44360778 GPG public key http://www.cs.vu.nl/~reinout/reinout.asc MandrakeClub member
Re: [Cooker] whose bright idea?
Le lun 10/03/2003 à 03:42, James Sparenberg a écrit : Don't waste your time, everybody knows FreeBSD is better than Linux :o Damian I've avoided that one (but notice I'm not arguing) Anyways, every one know that BSD is dying ;-) (Cool, I can't be modded down here, unlike slashdot ;-) Jean-Michel
Re: [Cooker] whose bright idea?
On Mon, 2003-03-10 at 04:02, Levi Ramsey wrote: On Sun Mar 09 22:07 -0500, Austin wrote: Well, at the very least, it's a great reason to switch to gnome. :-) Let's go for broke with this thread and bring emacs vs. vi, postfix vs. qmail, and Java vs. anything (anybody else have ideas?) into it... ;o) Don't forget every IM client vs. every other IM client! :) -- adamw
Re: [Cooker] whose bright idea?
On Sun, 2003-03-09 at 23:14, Jean-Michel Dault wrote: Le lun 10/03/2003 à 03:42, James Sparenberg a écrit : Don't waste your time, everybody knows FreeBSD is better than Linux :o Damian I've avoided that one (but notice I'm not arguing) Anyways, every one know that BSD is dying ;-) (Cool, I can't be modded down here, unlike slashdot ;-) Jean-Michel Not dying it's alive and well and living all over the place in some OS calle Line Uks or something like that ... *grin*
Re: [Cooker] whose bright idea?
On Mon, 2003-03-10 at 06:20, Brook Humphrey wrote: Remember I'm not talking about computer savvy users here but by far the majority of normal everyday business users who just think the computer is a tool and if something is different it throws them off for weeks just to figure it out. For these types of uses kde cant be beat. Gnome does have it's place but for simplicity sake gnome is not it. Er, I don't quite understand that. This is exactly the segment GNOME is aiming at. By default it behaves rather more like Windows than KDE does (double-click is default, window behaviour is similar) and the whole philosophy of the 2.x series is to simplify things down as far as possible...can you back up the argument that KDE 3 is simpler than GNOME 2? -- adamw
Re: [Cooker] whose bright idea?
On Mon, 10 Mar 2003, Jean-Michel Dault wrote: Well, Gnome can be hard, *even* for computer savvy people. Back to gnome-ppp, I just spent like 20 hours so far trying to know what was going on with a bug report. It's not like that I don't know what I'm gnome-ppp sucks. A lot. And it should not ever be put under any Mandrake users' nose (as has been the case in previous releases). Kppp should be the default. However IIRC it's not included with GNOME 2.x any more and it's simply ridiculous to measure the quality of GNOME for either new or advanced users by it. I could go on and start a GNOME-KDE flamewar now, but I won't because I have better things to do. ;-) regards, -- Reinout van SchouwenArtificial Intelligence student email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]mobile phone: +31-6-44360778 GPG public key http://www.cs.vu.nl/~reinout/reinout.asc MandrakeClub member
Re: [Cooker] whose bright idea?
On Sunday 09 March 2003 20:21, Brent Hasty wrote: whose un-bright idea was it to make double click default in mdk 9.1 rc2?` Forever it has been a single click enviroment in KDE, this change is really throughing a wrench at users who are familiar with and prefer a single click enviroment, makes it a real pain to have to go through and adjust the mouse clicks fore each useser on the network. I hope by the time 9.1 goes full release, single clik will again be the default for KDE Well for those of us who prefer double-click, and for that matter think it makes more sense (especially when I just want to select something), thank you Mandrake. OTOH: Why not just ask for the setting during the install, or in Mandrake First Time when you select KDE as your desktop. -- John Allen, Email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] MandrakeClub Silver Member.
Re: [Cooker] whose bright idea?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On March 10, 2003 05:22, John Allen wrote: Well for those of us who prefer double-click, and for that matter think it makes more sense (especially when I just want to select something), thank you Mandrake. Frankly, I'm realy puzzled by these repeated references by people who long to be able to select with a single click. Perhaps it's because I find it insanely simple to just Ctrl-click to select. Or am I somehow delusional? OTOH: Why not just ask for the setting during the install, or in Mandrake First Time when you select KDE as your desktop. Yes, I think we could all agree that choice is good. I really need to re-iterate my previous point about repetitive strain disorder, though. To me, defaulting to a single click costs nothing. Since it's trivially easy to change to double-click, the arguments against a single click default are entirely spurious. Not defaulting to single click is like saying it's not necessary that public buildings be wheelchair accessible. Let's not forget, we're young, virile, muscle-bound. iron-pumping code jockeys right now but wait just a few years of mousing 12 to 16 hr a day and we'll see who argues for two clicks when one might do. - -- Dave Fluri PGP Public Key-ID 3F64B9AC -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+bIb5o1mPmT9kuawRAoDXAJ4x/WM7sA8dg4XQgB8Ldoi1ia/T4QCfc5BD 4I3OqM0EH0a3z49+Zt5V9eI= =bqVZ -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Cooker] whose bright idea?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Jean-Michel Dault wrote: Le dim 09/03/2003 à 23:07, Austin a écrit : I'll bite the troll here ;-) Gnome is a good environment for experienced Linux people, but it lacks a lot of polish for people coming from the Windows world. Take the file dialog for example. Tell some corporate users they have to save everything on the file server, in /mnt/corporate. They'll have to click on the .. entry, then they'll get in /home and see all the users, be confused, and maybe they'll try .. again and then click on /mnt and then click on /corporate and finally save their stuff at the right place. Then look at the KDE file dialog, at the left, you have a nice place where people can make their shortcuts. Put it in the system wide configuration, and every user will have a FILESERVER icon that they can use easily. Yes, and you can put url's like fish://webserver/ or ftp://ftpserver or (if kio_smb works well enough) smb://sambaserver/share or (if kio_lan works well enough) lan://localhost there. You can't beat opening a html page from an ftpserver from Konqueror in Quanta, and just being able to hit CTRL-S. Even when Gnome eventually gets a tree view in the file dialog (AFAIK coming soon), they still won't have this funtionality for quite a while ... Now we just need to have a replacement for kio_smb, which smbmount's instead of smbclient's (which could get things like locking between windows and linux clients etc working). Buchan - -- |--Another happy Mandrake Club member--| Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager Cellphone * Work+27 82 472 2231 * +27 21 8828820x121 Stellenbosch Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za GPG Key http://ranger.dnsalias.com/bgmilne.asc 1024D/60D204A7 2919 E232 5610 A038 87B1 72D6 AC92 BA50 60D2 04A7 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE+bJWJrJK6UGDSBKcRAk7pAJ9kEunQ+lkrPfCP3txvFLJwcmMgpACfW/cw KUqeZkYnY6cqrbX50A8AlHo= =ugPd -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Cooker] whose bright idea?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Jean-Michel Dault wrote: Le lun 10/03/2003 à 02:20, Brook Humphrey a écrit : Well, Gnome can be hard, *even* for computer savvy people. Back to gnome-ppp, I just spent like 20 hours so far trying to know what was going on with a bug report. It's not like that I don't know what I'm doing, I founded three ISPs for god sakes, I installed hundreds and hundreds of modems, gave support to thousands of users, and can even recognize some brands and models of modems just by the sound they make by connecting! You would expect just giving the phone number, username and password, and expect it to connect, but no... You need to edit your pap-secrets file manually, give your username *twice* in the setup (username and remotename), and even then, there might still be problems because it always specifies an MRU of 296, even if you change it in the gnome-ppp settings, it will give the mru 296 option to pppd, and this option, unfortunately, can not be overriden by specifying a MRU in /etc/ppp/options, so you're screwed if your ISP supports IPV6, because the RFCs specify that the MRU must be at least 1280, and that the default should always be 1500. (wow, I'm pissed of and it shows in the length of my sentences ;-) You may want to give the mserver/gmasqdialer/kmasqdialer combo a try, even on a standalone box, since you can then have any user dial the connection. Even better when you are using the box for ICS with windows/linux clients. Buchan - -- |--Another happy Mandrake Club member--| Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager Cellphone * Work+27 82 472 2231 * +27 21 8828820x121 Stellenbosch Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za GPG Key http://ranger.dnsalias.com/bgmilne.asc 1024D/60D204A7 2919 E232 5610 A038 87B1 72D6 AC92 BA50 60D2 04A7 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE+bJifrJK6UGDSBKcRAgPvAKCI2teo9vFhCMLGJRHnfrB94UYL+wCeJWs5 XVdeFjeGl7zNBuxHSX4A5QA= =4los -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Cooker] whose bright idea?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 D F wrote: On March 10, 2003 05:22, John Allen wrote: Yes, I think we could all agree that choice is good. I really need to re-iterate my previous point about repetitive strain disorder, though. To me, defaulting to a single click costs nothing. Since it's trivially easy to change to double-click, the arguments against a single click default are entirely spurious. Not defaulting to single click is like saying it's not necessary that public buildings be wheelchair accessible. Let's not forget, we're young, virile, muscle-bound. iron-pumping code jockeys right now but wait just a few years of mousing 12 to 16 hr a day and we'll see who argues for two clicks when one might do. That's fine, but what about people who have been using windows for 10+ years (ie starting with windows 3.0 or so), and use linux occasionally. My dad (in his 50s) has problems remembering not to double click on links on webpages and the icons on the quicklaunch bar in windows. He would not be very happy if every time he clicked on an office document he had OpenOffice start up (leaving it's splash screen up for 10 seconds or more by default). In some cases, older people may be better of ;-). Buchan - -- |--Another happy Mandrake Club member--| Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager Cellphone * Work+27 82 472 2231 * +27 21 8828820x121 Stellenbosch Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za GPG Key http://ranger.dnsalias.com/bgmilne.asc 1024D/60D204A7 2919 E232 5610 A038 87B1 72D6 AC92 BA50 60D2 04A7 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE+bJ3OrJK6UGDSBKcRAhBgAJ9a6+NlkzDlWHL9DglXsxcEQ2nxgACfRBrn 9JZ6KfTr5lSsFWhwCxlb+to= =rXPV -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Cooker] whose bright idea?
On Monday 10 March 2003 01:20 am, Adam Williamson wrote: On Mon, 2003-03-10 at 06:20, Brook Humphrey wrote: Remember I'm not talking about computer savvy users here but by far the majority of normal everyday business users who just think the computer is a tool and if something is different it throws them off for weeks just to figure it out. For these types of uses kde cant be beat. Gnome does have it's place but for simplicity sake gnome is not it. Er, I don't quite understand that. This is exactly the segment GNOME is aiming at. By default it behaves rather more like Windows than KDE does (double-click is default, window behaviour is similar) and the whole philosophy of the 2.x series is to simplify things down as far as possible...can you back up the argument that KDE 3 is simpler than GNOME 2? Well I would answer you but Jean Michael has done a better job of explaining. Gnome is fine for more advanced users the kind on this list that is why you guys don't see it but there are allot of users out there that think the computer is like a toaster you just flip a button and it works. There is no use explaining the difference between software and hardware because it's all a computer right? If it wont start because windows is messed up they tell you the system wont start and when asked they suggest that it simply doesn't turn on when in reality windows only needs to be installed. I'm not trying to start a war here it's just the facts. Allot of users are barely competant to use even microsoft word let alone understand what is going on with the system. So for all you power users out there go live it up enjoy your gnome but don't ask me to install it by default for my business users who can barely even turn a computer on much figure out all the setting for the window manager. You guys unless you do the it stuff for some big places really don't have any idea. In finishing there are some outstanding gnome apps. Evolution, xchat, gftp, and gaim comes to mind but until the ease of use is there for all their apps it's not feasible. By the way I have both installed on my own system not that it matters. -- -~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~- Brook Humphrey Mobile PC Medic, 420 1st, Cheney, WA 99004, 509-235-9107 http://www.webmedic.net, [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Holiness unto the Lord -~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-
OT: desktop advocacy (was Re: [Cooker] whose bright idea?)
On Mon, 2003-03-10 at 14:36, Brook Humphrey wrote: Er, I don't quite understand that. This is exactly the segment GNOME is aiming at. By default it behaves rather more like Windows than KDE does (double-click is default, window behaviour is similar) and the whole philosophy of the 2.x series is to simplify things down as far as possible...can you back up the argument that KDE 3 is simpler than GNOME 2? Well I would answer you but Jean Michael has done a better job of explaining. I don't see that anywhere...but then, Cooker seems to have been missing messages again lately. Gnome is fine for more advanced users the kind on this list that is why you guys don't see it but there are allot of users out there that think the computer is like a toaster you just flip a button and it works. There is no use explaining the difference between software and hardware because it's all a computer right? If it wont start because windows is messed up they tell you the system wont start and when asked they suggest that it simply doesn't turn on when in reality windows only needs to be installed. I'm not trying to start a war here it's just the facts. Allot of users are Except you keep just posting stuff like the paragraph above, which *isn't* facts, it's vague assertions. It's true, but unless you start relating it to specific things in KDE and GNOME, it doesn't wash. If you *can* relate it to specific things that aren't already being worked on, I'm sure the GNOME team would like to hear from you. (This isn't trolling - I genuinely want to know what you think the difference is, and you haven't spelt it out yet.) barely competant to use even microsoft word let alone understand what is going on with the system. So for all you power users out there go live it up enjoy your gnome but don't ask me to install it by default for my business users who can barely even turn a computer on much figure out all the setting for the window manager. You guys unless you do the it stuff for some big places really don't have any idea. I just don't see the difference, to be honest. Your average luser runs an email client and a browser, right? I just don't see the difference between giving him a desktop with KMail and Konq buttons, and one with Evo and Galeon buttons...most business users would probably prefer Evo to KMail, too, since it's a dead ringer for Outlook. In finishing there are some outstanding gnome apps. Evolution, xchat, gftp, and gaim comes to mind but until the ease of use is there for all their apps it's not feasible. By the way I have both installed on my own system not that it matters. xchat and gftp aren't GNOME apps, they're GTK+ apps, not part of the GNOME project. There's a difference. They don't integrate with the GNOME framework at all (afaik), intentionally. gaim is almost the same - its GNOME integration is optional and currently very limited. -- adamw
Re: [Cooker] whose bright idea?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Brook Humphrey wrote on Mon, Mar 10, 2003 at 06:36:30AM -0800 : I'm not trying to start a war here it's just the facts. Allot of users are barely competant to use even microsoft word let alone understand what is going on with the system. So for all you power users out there go live it up A lot of users will be confused for 10 minutes if you move their Word icon somewhere else on the screen. It will be 30 minutes if you delete that icon. It will take another 10 minutes of your time to train them how to use the Start button to launch Word from the menus. At that point, they tell the office they are a power user and offer to fix other people's computers when they have a problem. It's ok to laugh, but it's true. Blue skies... Todd - -- Todd Lyons -- MandrakeSoft, Inc. http://www.mandrakesoft.com/ Favourite shell: bash, though I also like 'init=/usr/bin/emacs' --Andrew Tridgell Mandrake Cooker Devel Version, Kernel 2.4.21-0.12mdk -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE+bOQGlp7v05cW2woRAoDLAJ9Q8XuId2hFunv/J6IHfrMZzcBf7gCgo8Gh o86nfbysYg3N667+ylHQYrg= =Zl7T -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: OT: desktop advocacy (was Re: [Cooker] whose bright idea?)
Le lun 10/03/2003 à 14:00, Adam Williamson a écrit : ...can you back up the argument that KDE 3 is simpler than GNOME 2? Well I would answer you but Jean Michael has done a better job of explaining. I don't see that anywhere...but then, Cooker seems to have been missing messages again lately. Here is a cut-and-paste of what I said: Gnome is a good environment for experienced Linux people, but it lacks a lot of polish for people coming from the Windows world. Take the file dialog for example. Tell some corporate users they have to save everything on the file server, in /mnt/corporate. They'll have to click on the .. entry, then they'll get in /home and see all the users, be confused, and maybe they'll try .. again and then click on /mnt and then click on /corporate and finally save their stuff at the right place. Then look at the KDE file dialog, at the left, you have a nice place where people can make their shortcuts. Put it in the system wide configuration, and every user will have a FILESERVER icon that they can use easily. Take gnome-ppp versus kppp. gnome-ppp insists on a MRU of 296, and even if you change the settings, it doesn't use them, the 296 value is hard-coded into the gnome-ppp binary. This breaks EarthLink, who will not accept 296 as a valid MRU (that 296 value was valid when everyone was using 9600 modems BTW). It's little things, but all these little things add up... Jean-Michel relating it to specific things in KDE and GNOME, it doesn't wash. If you *can* relate it to specific things that aren't already being worked on, Are my examples specific enough? I would add to this the fact that gnome always complains if the hostname doesn't resolve (this is a PITA), the icons are really bad compared to the KDE ones (specially the home icon), that kcalc does hexadecimal, octal, binary, while the gnome one doesn't even have a % key (WTF?). I start konqueror, click on a .tar.gz, it shows the contents, if I try the same thing with Nautilus, it says it has no viewer. Maybe these issues can be easily adressed, but it really looks like the GNOME team is too focused on the environment, and not enough focused on the applications. I just don't see the difference, to be honest. Your average luser runs an email client and a browser, right? I just don't see the difference For the most part, yes, but there are many other things to do. Calculator, chat, instant messaging for example. xchat and gftp aren't GNOME apps, they're GTK+ apps, not part of the GNOME project. There's a difference. They don't integrate with the GNOME framework at all (afaik), intentionally. gaim is almost the same - its GNOME integration is optional and currently very limited. Does GNOME provide any apps besides the file manager, browser and e-mail client? ;-) Now I don't say GNOME is not suitable for some people, just that for new users, it might have some rough edges. Jean-Michel
Re: OT: desktop advocacy (was Re: [Cooker] whose bright idea?)
On Mon, 2003-03-10 at 18:25, Jean-Michel Dault wrote: Le lun 10/03/2003 à 14:00, Adam Williamson a écrit : ...can you back up the argument that KDE 3 is simpler than GNOME 2? Well I would answer you but Jean Michael has done a better job of explaining. I don't see that anywhere...but then, Cooker seems to have been missing messages again lately. Here is a cut-and-paste of what I said: Thanks. Yes, this message did get lost somewhere. Gnome is a good environment for experienced Linux people, but it lacks a lot of polish for people coming from the Windows world. Take the file dialog for example. Tell some corporate users they have to save everything on the file server, in /mnt/corporate. They'll have to click on the .. entry, then they'll get in /home and see all the users, be confused, and maybe they'll try .. again and then click on /mnt and then click on /corporate and finally save their stuff at the right place. Then look at the KDE file dialog, at the left, you have a nice place where people can make their shortcuts. Put it in the system wide configuration, and every user will have a FILESERVER icon that they can use easily. File dialog is one legitimate problem, it's well known and well discussed, and is in the works for GNOME 2.4. No-one can agree on exactly what to do with it, though =). It's just a hangover, basically. GNOME 2.0 was a framework release so they just ported the old file dialog to GTK+ 2, and then there were more pressing things to work on for 2.2. One very nice thing to try in the GNOME file dialog that doesn't work in KDE, AFAICT - tab-completion! Type a partial directory name in the entry box, hit tab, see what happens...=) Take gnome-ppp versus kppp. gnome-ppp insists on a MRU of 296, and even if you change the settings, it doesn't use them, the 296 value is hard-coded into the gnome-ppp binary. This breaks EarthLink, who will not accept 296 as a valid MRU (that 296 value was valid when everyone was using 9600 modems BTW). It's little things, but all these little things add up... As someone pointed out, the gnome-network stuff is incredibly obsolete and not shipped with GNOME anymore. So the point now is: KDE has kppp, GNOME doesn't have anything :). relating it to specific things in KDE and GNOME, it doesn't wash. If you *can* relate it to specific things that aren't already being worked on, Are my examples specific enough? Yes, but as I mentioned, gnome-ppp is obsolete and the file dialog *is* being worked on. I would add to this the fact that gnome always complains if the hostname doesn't resolve (this is a PITA), the icons are really bad compared to the KDE ones (specially the home icon), that kcalc does hexadecimal, octal, binary, while the gnome one doesn't even have a % key (WTF?). I start konqueror, click on a .tar.gz, it shows the contents, if I try the same thing with Nautilus, it says it has no viewer. Can't say I mind the icons, personally. The default calculator is simple by design: if you want something more capable, use the scarily fully-featured gcalctool. file-roller ought to deal with archive contents, I think... Maybe these issues can be easily adressed, but it really looks like the GNOME team is too focused on the environment, and not enough focused on the applications. Hmm, you've got to do both, really :) I just don't see the difference, to be honest. Your average luser runs an email client and a browser, right? I just don't see the difference For the most part, yes, but there are many other things to do. Calculator, chat, instant messaging for example. gcalctool, xchat, gaim. xchat and gaim are strengths of the GTK+ environment, I know several KDE users who use them...there's GnomeICU, too. xchat and gftp aren't GNOME apps, they're GTK+ apps, not part of the GNOME project. There's a difference. They don't integrate with the GNOME framework at all (afaik), intentionally. gaim is almost the same - its GNOME integration is optional and currently very limited. Does GNOME provide any apps besides the file manager, browser and e-mail client? ;-) Well, it all depends on the definition of app, really ;). The stuff in Fifth Toe (galeon and some other programs) will be part of GNOME at some point, and from a certain angle you can call things like gnome-system-monitor apps. But the point is that you can make an app that uses the GTK+ toolkit but no other bits of the GNOME framework, or you can make one that, er, does :). Now I don't say GNOME is not suitable for some people, just that for new users, it might have some rough edges. I don't see the rough edges as particular to new users, really. It's better just to say GNOME 2.2 still has some rough edges :). Most of them are being industriously filed down for 2.4, though. :) -- adamw
Re: OT: desktop advocacy (was Re: [Cooker] whose bright idea?)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Adam Williamson wrote: On Mon, 2003-03-10 at 18:25, Jean-Michel Dault wrote: File dialog is one legitimate problem, it's well known and well discussed, and is in the works for GNOME 2.4. No-one can agree on exactly what to do with it, though =). It's just a hangover, basically. GNOME 2.0 was a framework release so they just ported the old file dialog to GTK+ 2, and then there were more pressing things to work on for 2.2. AFAICR, this was originally promised for 2.0! Then again for 2.2! It's been years since they have promised to have this fixed. And it won't be as functional when it is done either. One very nice thing to try in the GNOME file dialog that doesn't work in KDE, AFAICT - tab-completion! Type a partial directory name in the entry box, hit tab, see what happens...=) It may not work in the Location field, but it does work (not via tabbing, via a drop-down box) in the recently-used directory drop-down. I just don't see the difference, to be honest. Your average luser runs an email client and a browser, right? I just don't see the difference For the most part, yes, but there are many other things to do. Calculator, chat, instant messaging for example. gcalctool, xchat, gaim. xchat and gaim are strengths of the GTK+ environment, I know several KDE users who use them...there's GnomeICU, too. Remember, JM mentioned corporates. Besides email and web (which are often not striclty work), our users never need irc/chat/im stuff. One of the biggest issues is file management etc, and Nautilus just doesn't cut it. Also, Gnome doesn't have an OpenOffice quick starter any more. Well, it all depends on the definition of app, really ;). The stuff in Fifth Toe (galeon and some other programs) will be part of GNOME at some point, and from a certain angle you can call things like gnome-system-monitor apps. But the point is that you can make an app that uses the GTK+ toolkit but no other bits of the GNOME framework, or you can make one that, er, does :). Exactly the reasons Gnome fails to be consistent. The only Qt/non-KDE apps around are those that are specifically cross-platform. It looks like the GNOME people go out of their way to create a non-consistent desktop. Now I don't say GNOME is not suitable for some people, just that for new users, it might have some rough edges. I don't see the rough edges as particular to new users, really. It's better just to say GNOME 2.2 still has some rough edges :). Most of them are being industriously filed down for 2.4, though. :) When last did Gnome not have rough edges? KDE2.2.x was pretty good, KDE3.0.x was better. Nothing since Gnome1.4 has shown any promise IMHO (except that Nautilus seems to have gotten a little bit faster). Buchan - -- |--Another happy Mandrake Club member--| Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager Cellphone * Work+27 82 472 2231 * +27 21 8828820x121 Stellenbosch Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za GPG Key http://ranger.dnsalias.com/bgmilne.asc 1024D/60D204A7 2919 E232 5610 A038 87B1 72D6 AC92 BA50 60D2 04A7 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE+bPRErJK6UGDSBKcRAmsZAJ9zuELCm5LiHonNs+Q4UZPcUurTvACgmvZT yXguTsR1c0SL5rqBnLKaVbE= =MBdR -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: OT: desktop advocacy (was Re: [Cooker] whose bright idea?)
The two MAIN problems under gnome are certainly file management and...PRINTING Abiword has it's own printbox, so does galeon, so does gnumeric, so does ggv...can someone do something pretty about that ! You can't tell a new user to open an xterm and type lpr...and what if you want to print landscape ? Please read man lpr. That's not serious. That's a shame because there are really very good things in gnome panel (i love the two menus concept) , desktop (icons resizing) , control-center (really easier than kcontrol) and nautilus (image zoom with the mouse..) for ex. We need those two very important dialog boxes : printing and file selection. Buchan Milne a écrit: Adam Williamson wrote: On Mon, 2003-03-10 at 18:25, Jean-Michel Dault wrote: File dialog is one legitimate problem, it's well known and well discussed, and is in the works for GNOME 2.4. No-one can agree on exactly what to do with it, though =). It's just a hangover, basically. GNOME 2.0 was a framework release so they just ported the old file dialog to GTK+ 2, and then there were more pressing things to work on for 2.2. AFAICR, this was originally promised for 2.0! Then again for 2.2! It's been years since they have promised to have this fixed. And it won't be as functional when it is done either. One very nice thing to try in the GNOME file dialog that doesn't work in KDE, AFAICT - tab-completion! Type a partial directory name in the entry box, hit tab, see what happens...=) It may not work in the Location field, but it does work (not via tabbing, via a drop-down box) in the recently-used directory drop-down. I just don't see the difference, to be honest. Your average luser runs an email client and a browser, right? I just don't see the difference For the most part, yes, but there are many other things to do. Calculator, chat, instant messaging for example. gcalctool, xchat, gaim. xchat and gaim are strengths of the GTK+ environment, I know several KDE users who use them...there's GnomeICU, too. Remember, JM mentioned corporates. Besides email and web (which are often not striclty work), our users never need irc/chat/im stuff. One of the biggest issues is file management etc, and Nautilus just doesn't cut it. Also, Gnome doesn't have an OpenOffice quick starter any more. Well, it all depends on the definition of app, really ;). The stuff in Fifth Toe (galeon and some other programs) will be part of GNOME at some point, and from a certain angle you can call things like gnome-system-monitor apps. But the point is that you can make an app that uses the GTK+ toolkit but no other bits of the GNOME framework, or you can make one that, er, does :). Exactly the reasons Gnome fails to be consistent. The only Qt/non-KDE apps around are those that are specifically cross-platform. It looks like the GNOME people go out of their way to create a non-consistent desktop. Now I don't say GNOME is not suitable for some people, just that for new users, it might have some rough edges. I don't see the rough edges as particular to new users, really. It's better just to say GNOME 2.2 still has some rough edges :). Most of them are being industriously filed down for 2.4, though. :) When last did Gnome not have rough edges? KDE2.2.x was pretty good, KDE3.0.x was better. Nothing since Gnome1.4 has shown any promise IMHO (except that Nautilus seems to have gotten a little bit faster). Buchan -- |--Another happy Mandrake Club member--| Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager Cellphone * Work+27 82 472 2231 * +27 21 8828820x121 Stellenbosch Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za GPG Key http://ranger.dnsalias.com/bgmilne.asc 1024D/60D204A7 2919 E232 5610 A038 87B1 72D6 AC92 BA50 60D2 04A7
Re: OT: desktop advocacy (was Re: [Cooker] whose bright idea?)
Le Lundi 10 Mars 2003 21:23, El Gringo ( aka Buchan Milne ) a écrit : Adam Williamson wrote: On Mon, 2003-03-10 at 18:25, Jean-Michel Dault wrote: File dialog is one legitimate problem, it's well known and well discussed, and is in the works for GNOME 2.4. No-one can agree on exactly what to do with it, though =). It's just a hangover, basically. GNOME 2.0 was a framework release so they just ported the old file dialog to GTK+ 2, and then there were more pressing things to work on for 2.2. AFAICR, this was originally promised for 2.0! Then again for 2.2! It's been years since they have promised to have this fixed. And it won't be as functional when it is done either. That's right. I knew that i was not dreaming. I still don't know how thing can be as they are even with Sun's enginners working on usability. How much people are trying to do a good desktop with gnome ? And how many people does it take to write a good dialog ! Even in KDE 1, it was a lot better. And, I am pretty sure that's only because GNOME should not look like windows... -- Michaël Scherer
Re: [Cooker] whose bright idea?
On Monday 10 March 2003 11:14 am, Todd Lyons wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Brook Humphrey wrote on Mon, Mar 10, 2003 at 06:36:30AM -0800 : I'm not trying to start a war here it's just the facts. Allot of users are barely competant to use even microsoft word let alone understand what is going on with the system. So for all you power users out there go live it up A lot of users will be confused for 10 minutes if you move their Word icon somewhere else on the screen. It will be 30 minutes if you delete that icon. It will take another 10 minutes of your time to train them how to use the Start button to launch Word from the menus. At that point, they tell the office they are a power user and offer to fix other people's computers when they have a problem. It's ok to laugh, but it's true. Blue skies... Todd This is exactly what I was saying. Thanks. -- -~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~- Brook Humphrey Mobile PC Medic, 420 1st, Cheney, WA 99004, 509-235-9107 http://www.webmedic.net, [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Holiness unto the Lord -~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-
Re: OT: desktop advocacy (was Re: [Cooker] whose bright idea?)
On Monday 10 March 2003 10:00 am, Adam Williamson wrote: I'm not trying to start a war here it's just the facts. Allot of users are Except you keep just posting stuff like the paragraph above, which *isn't* facts, it's vague assertions. It's true, but unless you start relating it to specific things in KDE and GNOME, it doesn't wash. If you *can* relate it to specific things that aren't already being worked on, I'm sure the GNOME team would like to hear from you. (This isn't trolling - I genuinely want to know what you think the difference is, and you haven't spelt it out yet.) Oh well it all comes down to usability and besides when the customer says this is what I want no amount of arguing one way or the other will change there mind. You simply do your best to give them what they want. I cant say in each specific case why they prefer what they do and quite frankly it does not matter all I know is this is what they want so I give it to them. The simplest solution is the best one. Besides I did note there are specific apps which do stand out. Evolution is a very good example. only for my use For my personal use I've been using kde for a long time. Unless gnome has importers for my addressbook and who knows what else I will not switch over besides I'm comfortable with what I have and gnome although offers the same functionality does not offer anything that is compelling for me to switch when I can simply run the few gnome apps under kde that meet my need. /only for my use barely competant to use even microsoft word let alone understand what is going on with the system. So for all you power users out there go live it up enjoy your gnome but don't ask me to install it by default for my business users who can barely even turn a computer on much figure out all the setting for the window manager. You guys unless you do the it stuff for some big places really don't have any idea. I just don't see the difference, to be honest. Your average luser runs an email client and a browser, right? I just don't see the difference between giving him a desktop with KMail and Konq buttons, and one with Evo and Galeon buttons...most business users would probably prefer Evo to KMail, too, since it's a dead ringer for Outlook. It's more like the default layout I think but I'm not really sure. Whatever the case I simply try to fulfill the customers wishes. In finishing there are some outstanding gnome apps. Evolution, xchat, gftp, and gaim comes to mind but until the ease of use is there for all their apps it's not feasible. By the way I have both installed on my own system not that it matters. xchat and gftp aren't GNOME apps, they're GTK+ apps, not part of the GNOME project. There's a difference. They don't integrate with the GNOME framework at all (afaik), intentionally. gaim is almost the same - its GNOME integration is optional and currently very limited. Ah sorry I was unaware of this for my own personal use it's just best of breed that wins out. For me personally whatever does what I need and is the easiest to use with the most functionality is the app that gets the most use. Again here for my own use I do check gnome stuff out every so often but I eventually go back to kde. Not because of anything inherently with gnome but for me I simply prefer the kde desktop. Call it comfort from long years of use. I did start using gnome years ago but the first time I used a kde desktop I fell in love with it myself. I've preferred kde since. Gnome has come a long way since then and gtk and gnome 2 are huge leaps above the older stuff but it's not enough for me to switch. I keep looking though. -- -~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~- Brook Humphrey Mobile PC Medic, 420 1st, Cheney, WA 99004, 509-235-9107 http://www.webmedic.net, [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Holiness unto the Lord -~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-
Re: OT: desktop advocacy (was Re: [Cooker] whose bright idea?)
On Mon, 2003-03-10 at 20:51, Henri wrote: The two MAIN problems under gnome are certainly file management and...PRINTING Abiword has it's own printbox, so does galeon, so does gnumeric, so does ggv...can someone do something pretty about that ! You can't tell a new user to open an xterm and type lpr...and what if you want to print landscape ? Please read man lpr. That's not serious. That's a shame because there are really very good things in gnome panel (i love the two menus concept) , desktop (icons resizing) , control-center (really easier than kcontrol) and nautilus (image zoom with the mouse..) for ex. We need those two very important dialog boxes : printing and file selection. Hmm, interesting point. Let me check... Current development abiword and galeon have v. different print boxes to the older versions, but you're right, they're still not the same =). Galeon's is better, and has a landscape printing option (development abiword's doesn't, but then, for me printing doesn't work at all, so I guess that's still in progress :P). I don't have gnumeric. Current ggv doesn't appear to have a print dialog at all, the print document menu option just prints it. Which is a pain, I didn't want my test document printed...oh well :). Resizable icons - that's because GNOME has spiffy SVG support, hehe. I guess the KDE guys are gonna include this too, though. I think printing is supposed to be dealt with via the gnome-print package...current development abiword doesn't do GNOME integration, so maybe when they start working on that, printing will go through gnome-print and be standardised. I'm not sure where Galeon's print dialog comes from. But that's a good point, it would be a decent improvement...guess I'll have a chat with some GNOME people and see what's happening with it. -- adamw
Re: [Cooker] whose bright idea?
On Mon, 2003-03-10 at 01:14, Adam Williamson wrote: On Mon, 2003-03-10 at 04:02, Levi Ramsey wrote: On Sun Mar 09 22:07 -0500, Austin wrote: Well, at the very least, it's a great reason to switch to gnome. :-) Let's go for broke with this thread and bring emacs vs. vi, postfix vs. qmail, and Java vs. anything (anybody else have ideas?) into it... ;o) Don't forget every IM client vs. every other IM client! :) Dang Adam thanks... almost forgot that one... O can we include my font is cleaner than your font too!!! uh uh can we!
Re: [Cooker] whose bright idea?
On Mon, 2003-03-10 at 05:39, Buchan Milne wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Jean-Michel Dault wrote: Le dim 09/03/2003 à 23:07, Austin a écrit : I'll bite the troll here ;-) Gnome is a good environment for experienced Linux people, but it lacks a lot of polish for people coming from the Windows world. Take the file dialog for example. Tell some corporate users they have to save everything on the file server, in /mnt/corporate. They'll have to click on the .. entry, then they'll get in /home and see all the users, be confused, and maybe they'll try .. again and then click on /mnt and then click on /corporate and finally save their stuff at the right place. Then look at the KDE file dialog, at the left, you have a nice place where people can make their shortcuts. Put it in the system wide configuration, and every user will have a FILESERVER icon that they can use easily. Yes, and you can put url's like fish://webserver/ or ftp://ftpserver or (if kio_smb works well enough) smb://sambaserver/share or (if kio_lan works well enough) lan://localhost there. You can't beat opening a html page from an ftpserver from Konqueror in Quanta, and just being able to hit CTRL-S. Even when Gnome eventually gets a tree view in the file dialog (AFAIK coming soon), they still won't have this funtionality for quite a while ... Now we just need to have a replacement for kio_smb, which smbmount's instead of smbclient's (which could get things like locking between windows and linux clients etc working). Buchan Dang I could use something like that just to get our salesmans win20 and xp and 98 laptops talking to each other... let alone Linux integration... *grin*
Re: [Cooker] whose bright idea?
On Mon, 2003-03-10 at 02:22, John Allen wrote: On Sunday 09 March 2003 20:21, Brent Hasty wrote: whose un-bright idea was it to make double click default in mdk 9.1 rc2?` Forever it has been a single click enviroment in KDE, this change is really throughing a wrench at users who are familiar with and prefer a single click enviroment, makes it a real pain to have to go through and adjust the mouse clicks fore each useser on the network. I hope by the time 9.1 goes full release, single clik will again be the default for KDE Well for those of us who prefer double-click, and for that matter think it makes more sense (especially when I just want to select something), thank you Mandrake. OTOH: Why not just ask for the setting during the install, or in Mandrake First Time when you select KDE as your desktop. And for those of us using another WM ... Thanks Mandrake for not abandoning us either. James
Re: [Cooker] whose bright idea?
On Mon, 2003-03-10 at 06:36, Brook Humphrey wrote: On Monday 10 March 2003 01:20 am, Adam Williamson wrote: On Mon, 2003-03-10 at 06:20, Brook Humphrey wrote: Remember I'm not talking about computer savvy users here but by far the majority of normal everyday business users who just think the computer is a tool and if something is different it throws them off for weeks just to figure it out. For these types of uses kde cant be beat. Gnome does have it's place but for simplicity sake gnome is not it. Er, I don't quite understand that. This is exactly the segment GNOME is aiming at. By default it behaves rather more like Windows than KDE does (double-click is default, window behaviour is similar) and the whole philosophy of the 2.x series is to simplify things down as far as possible...can you back up the argument that KDE 3 is simpler than GNOME 2? Well I would answer you but Jean Michael has done a better job of explaining. Gnome is fine for more advanced users the kind on this list that is why you guys don't see it but there are allot of users out there that think the computer is like a toaster you just flip a button and it works. There is no use explaining the difference between software and hardware because it's all a computer right? If it wont start because windows is messed up they tell you the system wont start and when asked they suggest that it simply doesn't turn on when in reality windows only needs to be installed. I'm not trying to start a war here it's just the facts. Allot of users are barely competant to use even microsoft word let alone understand what is going on with the system. So for all you power users out there go live it up enjoy your gnome but don't ask me to install it by default for my business users who can barely even turn a computer on much figure out all the setting for the window manager. You guys unless you do the it stuff for some big places really don't have any idea. There really is a third kind of user. This one is extremely competent in what they do on a computer (Like making 3D animation rock) but couldn't for the life of them setup networking on the computer they use day in day out, if their life depended on it. There are people who are not competent to their software, but they rock with their software. James In finishing there are some outstanding gnome apps. Evolution, xchat, gftp, and gaim comes to mind but until the ease of use is there for all their apps it's not feasible. By the way I have both installed on my own system not that it matters.
Re: [Cooker] whose bright idea?
On Sun Mar 09 12:21 -0800, Brent Hasty wrote: whose un-bright idea was it to make double click default in mdk 9.1 rc2?` Forever it has been a single click enviroment in KDE, this change is really throughing a wrench at users who are familiar with and prefer a single click enviroment, makes it a real pain to have to go through and adjust the mouse clicks fore each useser on the network. I hope by the time 9.1 goes full release, single clik will again be the default for KDE Oh no, not another flamefest on this holy war... -- Levi Ramsey [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] The food of love is Mandrake root. GPG Fingerprint: 354C 7A02 77C5 9EE7 8538 4E8D DCD9 B4B0 DC35 67CD Currently playing: Monster Magnet - Take It Linux 2.4.21-0.13mdk 21:30:00 up 1 day, 5:18, 11 users, load average: 1.52, 1.39, 0.89
Re: [Cooker] whose bright idea?
Le dim 09/03/2003 à 16:21, Brent Hasty a écrit : whose un-bright idea was it to make double click default in mdk 9.1 rc2?` I don't know who it is, but *a lot* of users coming from Windows were having problems with the single click, and they ended up always starting their application twice. I don't think it's an un-bright idea, especially in the corporate environment. Forever it has been a single click enviroment in KDE, this change is really throughing a wrench at users who are familiar with and prefer a single click enviroment, makes it a real pain to have to go through and adjust the mouse clicks fore each useser on the network. If you have a lot of users, and you're the sysadmin, then it's really simple: find -type f|grep kdeglobals|xargs perl -pi -e \ s/SingleClick=false/SingleClick=true/; And it will replace all your users settings (~/.kde/share/config/kdeglobals), plus the default setting in /usr/share/config/kdeglobals. Jean-Michel
Re: [Cooker] whose bright idea?
On 2003.03.09 20:42 Jean-Michel Dault wrote: I don't know who it is, but *a lot* of users coming from Windows were having problems with the single click, and they ended up always starting their application twice. I don't think it's an un-bright idea, especially in the corporate environment. Well, at the very least, it's a great reason to switch to gnome. :-) Austin -- Austin Acton Hon.B.Sc. Synthetic Organic Chemist, Teaching Assistant Department of Chemistry, York University, Toronto MandrakeClub Volunteer (www.mandrakeclub.com) homepage: www.groundstate.ca
Re: [Cooker] whose bright idea?
Le dim 09/03/2003 à 23:07, Austin a écrit : I don't know who it is, but *a lot* of users coming from Windows were having problems with the single click, and they ended up always starting their application twice. I don't think it's an un-bright idea, especially in the corporate environment. Well, at the very least, it's a great reason to switch to gnome. :-) I'll bite the troll here ;-) Gnome is a good environment for experienced Linux people, but it lacks a lot of polish for people coming from the Windows world. Take the file dialog for example. Tell some corporate users they have to save everything on the file server, in /mnt/corporate. They'll have to click on the .. entry, then they'll get in /home and see all the users, be confused, and maybe they'll try .. again and then click on /mnt and then click on /corporate and finally save their stuff at the right place. Then look at the KDE file dialog, at the left, you have a nice place where people can make their shortcuts. Put it in the system wide configuration, and every user will have a FILESERVER icon that they can use easily. Take gnome-ppp versus kppp. gnome-ppp insists on a MRU of 296, and even if you change the settings, it doesn't use them, the 296 value is hard-coded into the gnome-ppp binary. This breaks EarthLink, who will not accept 296 as a valid MRU (that 296 value was valid when everyone was using 9600 modems BTW). It's little things, but all these little things add up... Jean-Michel
Re: [Cooker] whose bright idea?
On Sun Mar 09 22:07 -0500, Austin wrote: Well, at the very least, it's a great reason to switch to gnome. :-) Let's go for broke with this thread and bring emacs vs. vi, postfix vs. qmail, and Java vs. anything (anybody else have ideas?) into it... ;o) -- Levi Ramsey [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] The food of love is Mandrake root. GPG Fingerprint: 354C 7A02 77C5 9EE7 8538 4E8D DCD9 B4B0 DC35 67CD Currently playing: A Pleasant Drive in St Petersburg.ogg Linux 2.4.21-0.13mdk 23:00:04 up 1 day, 6:48, 11 users, load average: 0.15, 0.23, 0.25
Re: [Cooker] whose bright idea?
On Monday 10 de March 2003 01:02, Levi Ramsey wrote: On Sun Mar 09 22:07 -0500, Austin wrote: Well, at the very least, it's a great reason to switch to gnome. :-) Let's go for broke with this thread and bring emacs vs. vi, postfix vs. qmail, and Java vs. anything (anybody else have ideas?) into it... ;o) Don't waste your time, everybody knows FreeBSD is better than Linux :o Damian
Re: [Cooker] whose bright idea?
On 2003.03.09 23:02 Levi Ramsey wrote: Let's go for broke with this thread and bring emacs vs. vi, postfix vs. qmail, and Java vs. anything (anybody else have ideas?) into it... ;o) Evolution vs. Kmail source vs. binary QWERTY vs. DVORAK MP3 vs. OGG Galeon vs. Konqueror divx vs. xvid In fact, let's just split the whole linux community into factions who constantly argue until they destroy themselves. That would be wonderful. Well, at least we all agree that java sucks. :-O There's some bait for y'all!!! Austin -- Austin Acton Hon.B.Sc. Synthetic Organic Chemist, Teaching Assistant Department of Chemistry, York University, Toronto MandrakeClub Volunteer (www.mandrakeclub.com) homepage: www.groundstate.ca
Re: [Cooker] whose bright idea?
On Sunday 09 March 2003 07:07 pm, Austin wrote:
On 2003.03.09 20:42 Jean-Michel Dault wrote:
I don't know who it is, but *a lot* of users coming from Windows were
having problems with the single click, and they ended up always starting
their application twice. I don't think it's an un-bright idea,
especially in the corporate environment.
Well, at the very least, it's a great reason to switch to gnome. :-)
Austin
{cough}{spit}{hack-hack} anything but that..
--
To vacillate or not to vacillate, that is the question ... or is it?
Re: [Cooker] whose bright idea?
On Sunday 09 March 2003 06:35 pm, Jean-Michel Dault wrote: It's little things, but all these little things add up... Jean-Michel This is so true I'm not hacking on gnome and the last time I stated this somebody just blew me off saying I started using gnome right off and it great. Well for the majority of the business sector ( I do allot of sysadmin type stuff ) you would not believe how many people can barely manage to use windows. Really most the users are so illiterate it supprises me they can drive cars. For these type of user's it is worthless to try and explain this all to them. If it doesn't look and act as close to windows as possible they don't want anything to do with it. The supposed learning curve is to high or whatever excuse they come up with this week. Remember I'm not talking about computer savvy users here but by far the majority of normal everyday business users who just think the computer is a tool and if something is different it throws them off for weeks just to figure it out. For these types of uses kde cant be beat. Gnome does have it's place but for simplicity sake gnome is not it. -- -~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~- Brook Humphrey Mobile PC Medic, 420 1st, Cheney, WA 99004, 509-235-9107 http://www.webmedic.net, [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Holiness unto the Lord -~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-~`'~-
Re: [Cooker] whose bright idea?
Le lun 10/03/2003 à 02:20, Brook Humphrey a écrit : Really most the users are so illiterate it supprises me they can drive cars. BTW, I don't own a car. Where I live (Montreal, Sherbrooke now), where I go often (Paris, New York), there is a good mass transit service, so you don't need a car, which is great because people *ARE* dangerous. Remember I'm not talking about computer savvy users here but by far the majority of normal everyday business users who just think the computer is a tool and if something is different it throws them off for weeks just to figure it out. For these types of uses kde cant be beat. Gnome does have it's place but for simplicity sake gnome is not it. Well, Gnome can be hard, *even* for computer savvy people. Back to gnome-ppp, I just spent like 20 hours so far trying to know what was going on with a bug report. It's not like that I don't know what I'm doing, I founded three ISPs for god sakes, I installed hundreds and hundreds of modems, gave support to thousands of users, and can even recognize some brands and models of modems just by the sound they make by connecting! You would expect just giving the phone number, username and password, and expect it to connect, but no... You need to edit your pap-secrets file manually, give your username *twice* in the setup (username and remotename), and even then, there might still be problems because it always specifies an MRU of 296, even if you change it in the gnome-ppp settings, it will give the mru 296 option to pppd, and this option, unfortunately, can not be overriden by specifying a MRU in /etc/ppp/options, so you're screwed if your ISP supports IPV6, because the RFCs specify that the MRU must be at least 1280, and that the default should always be 1500. (wow, I'm pissed of and it shows in the length of my sentences ;-) I'm very lucky the bug reporter was very patient, and that I had a spare, non-winmodem, good old external modem, and a Linux box with the same setup at the other end so I could trace the PPP protocol and make sure this wasn't an issue with the ISP. Now imagine I was an entry-level tech support person at an unknown small regional ISP and I received a phone call from a farmer who just bought a brand-new Linux box for $200 from Wal-Mart and used gnome because he read about it in some newspaper. Imagine the conversation... I'm sure this would have resulted in the guy calling some friend who would just burn him a copy of Windows because it works with the same ISP. What's more, it has a calculator and winzip, which the farmer couldn't find on his Linux box because kdeutils is not installed by default. *Anyways*, kdeppp just plain works, username, password, number, connect, and it's a go! Jean-Michel
Re: [Cooker] whose bright idea?
On Sun, 2003-03-09 at 20:02, Levi Ramsey wrote: On Sun Mar 09 22:07 -0500, Austin wrote: Well, at the very least, it's a great reason to switch to gnome. :-) Let's go for broke with this thread and bring emacs vs. vi, postfix vs. qmail, and Java vs. anything (anybody else have ideas?) into it... ;o) heck fire can I get my favorite one in here too? startx vs booting directly into X .*grin* James
Re: [Cooker] whose bright idea?
On Sun, 2003-03-09 at 20:26, Damian Gatabria wrote: On Monday 10 de March 2003 01:02, Levi Ramsey wrote: On Sun Mar 09 22:07 -0500, Austin wrote: Well, at the very least, it's a great reason to switch to gnome. :-) Let's go for broke with this thread and bring emacs vs. vi, postfix vs. qmail, and Java vs. anything (anybody else have ideas?) into it... ;o) Don't waste your time, everybody knows FreeBSD is better than Linux :o Damian Damian I've avoided that one (but notice I'm not arguing)
