Re: [crossfire] Banking system
Oh that sounds good. I'd also like to have valued_as gold18k, gold14k, and gold10k (nuggets are not pure gold by weight as it is (good idea IMHO, makes sence), so we need those aswell). gold18k etc should be computed by gold/(whatever it's ratio is). --- Brendan Lally [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 1/4/06, Miguel Ghobangieno [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: this would be looked up and the value computed. That way you could have flucuation gold etc values. if you add a valued_as then value should be ignored completely. But if you combined the two, it would be useful for many more items. Whilst a gold bar or gold dust would probably have value zero, a cursed gold ring should have that gold value minus an amount representing the badness of the curse - and making it worth melting down - of course the melting process shouldn't be entirely efficiant either That would allow both the price of gold bars to vary and the price of gold items to vary too ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire __ Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Banking system
Yes I know, it's a buyers market right now :). Silver is, however, getting rarer. It is believed to be only 2 or 4x as abundant as gold now as the silver is used up as a rapid pace in industrial processes. If you want we could up silver to 2:10 or maybe even 4:10 rather then the 1:10 it is now and put copper at 1:10. Your thoughts? If you want to do this I'll be happy to change the archtypes. Someone will need to change the bank exchange tables though (I'll do mlab). So should we keep it at 1:10. Put it at 2:10 or 4:10 ? (or 3:10 ? (odd numbers are unfun at division though)) --- Brendan Lally [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 1/2/06, Miguel Ghobangieno [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Changing the value of the metal coins isn't doable as silver has a set weight to value ratio... Well, today silver has about 1/80th of the weight to value ratio of gold. So changing the relative prices is certainly possible. ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire __ Yahoo! for Good - Make a difference this year. http://brand.yahoo.com/cybergivingweek2005/ ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Banking system
gold and silver coins are not fiate currencies, their value can't be just inflated. You need paper money for that (or money who's value is more then the value of the material). I won't support inflating gold and silver etc. I will support creating paralell fiat currencies, and yes they did exist in the ancient world. --- Brendan Lally [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 1/3/06, Miguel Ghobangieno [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So should we keep it at 1:10. Put it at 2:10 or 4:10 ? (or 3:10 ? (odd numbers are unfun at division though)) I'm inclined to think that if this is going to be done, then their would need to be a currency system independent of the values of the individual coins. Instead of using gold, silver and platinum, define a unit and one or two subunits, give them absolute values, and then make gold, silver and platinum coins worth some value relative to that. (maybe even a sliding value) so, if we take something like the old spanish system, where there is the dollar/peso, (or 'pieces of eight' as they were called), each being worth 8 reals, which in turn is worth 85 maravedíes (depending on /which/ real you are refering to, but you only need to pick one). In that case then, value 1 would be a maravedies, prices would be given in terms of dollars, reals, and maravedies, and silver gold and platinum would have values that floated about that, with a whole slew of other coins as well. To extend this line of reasoning further, if these were tied to areas of the game world, it would allow macro-economic effects, as various currancies became debased due to economic pressure (something that happened quite frequently in the past - the real was originally 3 maravedies). This would also lead to a somewhat evil way to control wealth acquisition, just hyper-inflate the coinage or commodities most of the wealth is being stored in. (not that anyone would do that of course.) ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire __ Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Banking system
On 1/3/06, Miguel Ghobangieno [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: gold and silver coins are not fiate currencies, their value can't be just inflated. You need paper money for that (or money who's value is more then the value of the material). I won't support inflating gold and silver etc. I will support creating paralell fiat currencies, and yes they did exist in the ancient world. Ah, but now you have to consider what is actually fluctuating. Is it that the value of gold is dropping, or the value of the currency is increasing. In recent history, it has tended to be the case that fluctuations in the prices of gold/silver etc, have overwhelmingly /not/ taken other prices with them. Just because the US dollar weakens against gold (or if you prefer that gold strengthens against the dollar) doesn't mean that the price of bread alters. Certainly it is fair to say that gold has traditionally been quite consistent with reference to other commodities but silver-backed currencies (and especially silver-backed currencies with a debased coinage, which is what I am describing here, rather than fiat currencies) have fluctuated over time with respect to the price of gold. Whether you make the 'value' field relative to a fixed commodity, or a currency, is really an irrelevant point, once you have the same relationship between them being expressed, however, if we take the consumer's-eye view of the economy, prices are significant relative to wages, which are fixed in a currency, not to a commodity that few of them will ever trade in (plus it involves modifying fewer object values). ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Banking system
It would be nice to beable to set in for instance: Object goldbar name goldbar weight 1 value gold Object goldcoin name goldcoin weight 10 (or whatever it is) value gold that way the value will be * by the current value to weight ration (in thiscase 1/1) --- Brendan Lally [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 1/3/06, Miguel Ghobangieno [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: gold and silver coins are not fiate currencies, their value can't be just inflated. You need paper money for that (or money who's value is more then the value of the material). I won't support inflating gold and silver etc. I will support creating paralell fiat currencies, and yes they did exist in the ancient world. Ah, but now you have to consider what is actually fluctuating. Is it that the value of gold is dropping, or the value of the currency is increasing. In recent history, it has tended to be the case that fluctuations in the prices of gold/silver etc, have overwhelmingly /not/ taken other prices with them. Just because the US dollar weakens against gold (or if you prefer that gold strengthens against the dollar) doesn't mean that the price of bread alters. Certainly it is fair to say that gold has traditionally been quite consistent with reference to other commodities but silver-backed currencies (and especially silver-backed currencies with a debased coinage, which is what I am describing here, rather than fiat currencies) have fluctuated over time with respect to the price of gold. Whether you make the 'value' field relative to a fixed commodity, or a currency, is really an irrelevant point, once you have the same relationship between them being expressed, however, if we take the consumer's-eye view of the economy, prices are significant relative to wages, which are fixed in a currency, not to a commodity that few of them will ever trade in (plus it involves modifying fewer object values). ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire __ Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Banking system
On 1/3/06, Miguel Ghobangieno [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It would be nice to beable to set in for instance: Object goldbar name goldbar weight 1 value gold Object goldcoin name goldcoin weight 10 (or whatever it is) value gold that way the value will be * by the current value to weight ration (in thiscase 1/1) This is an interesting idea, and one I hadn't thought of before. Probably for ease of parsing however, it would need to be a new property 'valued_as'? maybe that should be in addition to the value field? For example, a gold necklace might have a fixed value based on the workmanship of the necklace, plus an inherent value based on the weight of the gold. The final value then would be the combination of the two. This would also scale nicely to enchanted weapons and the like. For example a sword could be valued_as steel, with a value of 20 (say) but a sword +1 might have a value of 1000, and a sword -1 a value of -500 (this would require negative values, but allow in principle that a player could make money by melting down cursed items, and reforming them. The questions then become, is it better to hijack the 'material' value for that, and what effect would that have on the things that material is currently used for? ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Banking system
:( The value of a gold bar shouldn't be it's setvalue and gold spot combination. It should only be the gold spot. That won't work. Also we shouldn't use the materials thing for value. --- Brendan Lally [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 1/3/06, Miguel Ghobangieno [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It would be nice to beable to set in for instance: Object goldbar name goldbar weight 1 value gold Object goldcoin name goldcoin weight 10 (or whatever it is) value gold that way the value will be * by the current value to weight ration (in thiscase 1/1) This is an interesting idea, and one I hadn't thought of before. Probably for ease of parsing however, it would need to be a new property 'valued_as'? maybe that should be in addition to the value field? For example, a gold necklace might have a fixed value based on the workmanship of the necklace, plus an inherent value based on the weight of the gold. The final value then would be the combination of the two. This would also scale nicely to enchanted weapons and the like. For example a sword could be valued_as steel, with a value of 20 (say) but a sword +1 might have a value of 1000, and a sword -1 a value of -500 (this would require negative values, but allow in principle that a player could make money by melting down cursed items, and reforming them. The questions then become, is it better to hijack the 'material' value for that, and what effect would that have on the things that material is currently used for? ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire __ Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Banking system
Changing the value of the metal coins isn't doable as silver has a set weight to value ratio... Perhapse it is best to forget about copper coins. --- Mark Wedel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Miguel Ghobangieno wrote: I suggest an addum to the mappers handbook don't put jade and amber coins in you duengons as rewards. Then will come the question why have them then! Well then why have most of the things we have in CF? We could probably chuck most of our archtypes.. why even have CF? CF isn't needed in the world etc. Updating the map guide could be done. I just wonder how many people read it :). That said, the map check scripts could be modified to look for unauthorized arches also - some cases may be acceptable, but noting that jade coin appears in map xyz coudl still be useful. I'd also like copper coins, this will require value to have decemal points. Could we do that? IMO, no. There will always need to be a minimum value, and keeping that minimum 1 to me makes perfect sense. Adding decimalization adds a fair amount of complication, and as is, a value 1 object really isn't worth anything. I'd much rather go the approach of revalueing the existing money. Make the new copper coin worth 1. Make silver coins worth 5. If gold (10) and platinum (50) coins keep the same value, such a change in valuation isn't likely to affect things very much (unless players make huge piles of silver to anticipate that change). Or perhaps one that seems like more a hack but wouldn't have that problem - create 'new' coin - new copper, new silver, new gold, new platinum, etc coins as new archetypes. Put whatever valuation you want in them. Update treasure lists (and perhaps maps, but I'm not sure how many maps actually have coins piled on them) Maybe change the existing coins to be 'old' coins or 'ancient' coins. Thus, all new coinage that shows up should be these new coins with new valuation. However, those old coins still exist and can still be used with no inflation in value, so a player that has stockpiled piles of them doesn't get anything more from them (and if they find them in maps or something, not a big deal - old coins sitting in a dungeon wouldn't be that odd). I say all this because, as I've said before, at some level, you need a minimum value on objects. You can't use floats to store value because the precision for high/low values isn't there, and you'll get into all sorts of errors. So the only way to do this is what Brendan (I think it was) described, which is to multiply and divide internally. But even then, you are still stuck with some minimum, based on the multiply/divide values that are set up (if for example it is 100, then your minimum value is .01 - anything less is lost). But really, it comes down to the fact (to me) that a value 1 object is pretty nearly worthless, and I can't see need to have stuff worth less than that. So this really becomes a matter of a new coin standard, and that can be done with just archetype changes, which to me seems like the much better way to go. ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire __ Yahoo! for Good - Make a difference this year. http://brand.yahoo.com/cybergivingweek2005/ ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Banking system
On 1/2/06, Miguel Ghobangieno [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Changing the value of the metal coins isn't doable as silver has a set weight to value ratio... Well, today silver has about 1/80th of the weight to value ratio of gold. So changing the relative prices is certainly possible. ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Banking system
Who said jade and amberonium coins would be in any duengons? I am not putting them as treasures in my maps atleast (and does anyone else map anymore besides me?). As for we have gems/this/that which can be used instead it's nice to have multiple ways to do things. The role of jade etc IMHO, since I'm not going to put them in my duengons as treasure (and hopefully others won't either) is to beable to have 10,000 dollar notes kindof thing. All apprasals etc should be in silver, gold, plat and never jade and amber. I suggest an addum to the mappers handbook don't put jade and amber coins in you duengons as rewards. Then will come the question why have them then! Well then why have most of the things we have in CF? We could probably chuck most of our archtypes.. why even have CF? CF isn't needed in the world etc. I'd also like copper coins, this will require value to have decemal points. Could we do that? --- Rick Tanner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Post on behalf of Todd Mitchell (Avion): The Imperial Banking system was not intended to be a modern bank, more of an old fashioned type bank. The Imperial Note is not money, it is a credit note. Basically it was to allow players to carry and transfer large amounts of wealth between cities or as a way to pay for large ticket items (such as guilds) while avoiding inflation of value that large coins would bring. The coin system is based on weight and this is a good thing that limits the amount of treasure folks can carry. Because they are low weight and easy to carry, the Imperial notes are not supposed to be worth anything intrinsically and cannot be used as money, but can be used to transfer large sums of money (and always for a convenience fee). All this talk of large denomination coins seems to be to me misplaced since the point of the coins is to limit what can be hauled out of dungeons easily and limit wealth accumulation. Large coins will lead to inflation as they allow players to carry more cash on hand. As for 'credit cards' and other stuff to pay for big purchases? - why bother when you can easily make special altars (or use scripting) for expensive things that accept Imperial notes. They are already credit notes. Allowing their use as *money* however would simply make them into large coins and defeat their purpose. Also the bank code was designed to allow for alternate credit institutions and easily changable service fees. ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire __ Yahoo! for Good - Make a difference this year. http://brand.yahoo.com/cybergivingweek2005/ ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Banking system
Checkbook arch committed. There is also a bankcard arch. --- Rick Tanner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 ERACC wrote: That is why I suggested a bank card that debits the bank account rather than a credit card. I don't think CF should implement a credit system. I see ways to exploit /that/ right now. Hmm.. I thought the discussion all along was for some sort of debit/check/cheque card that automatically deducts the money from your bank account *assuming* you have enough cash in there to cover the purchase. Otherwise you see some sort of message showing how much more money you need to make the purchase. I agree, I think it's a bad idea for a credit card or making purchases without cold hard cash to back it up. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFDsbmDhHyvgBp+vH4RAqqqAKDNYdG9Psbcuw2XfLmwSujwwRon/wCg7O68 Y0Soiyofjh3eTWQ1wdnhcZ0= =zXPP -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire __ Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Banking system
I think you should have to go to the bank to convert coins to other currencies etc. If people don't want to bother with money they can use the checkbook and have to put up with the small % fees. --- Mark Wedel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My point about dropping money in the shop is more a convenience thing, not realism (using the 'r' word with crossfire is never a good idea). But my general thought is that if a bankkeeper is willing to accept usage of the check card (or whatever its called), it just makes it easier for players so they don't have to run to the bank every time they want to get rid of their coins. That's not one of the things I really like in real life, so could do without it in a game. As far as check books, various thoughts: 1) the bank itself could charge some fee (fixed percentage) of the money being deposited. After all, they are taking all those coins and storing them away. Number should probably be relatively low. 2) Shops could add some surcharge if using such a card. Perhaps make this a map property. Arguably, the bigger the purchase, the smaller (percentage wise) this charge would be. If you're buying something for 4 gp, its a bit of a bother for the shopkeeper to take that check and get the money. If you're spending 50,000 pp, the shop keeper would probably prefer that money get transferred directly to their bank account - they don't want 5 tons of platinum. If one was going to be more realistic, there really should be regional banks (scorn bank, navar city bank, etc), and you'd need to use the appropriate check book in the appropriate city (or the shops should demand a lot more money for using accounts of a foreign nature). Or perhaps the at the bank itself, you could transfer money, but with a fairly hefty fee (have to use magic after all to really confirm there is the money in that remote account, etc). But that really just makes things more a bother for the player. ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire __ Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Banking system
Miguel Ghobangieno wrote: I suggest an addum to the mappers handbook don't put jade and amber coins in you duengons as rewards. Then will come the question why have them then! Well then why have most of the things we have in CF? We could probably chuck most of our archtypes.. why even have CF? CF isn't needed in the world etc. Updating the map guide could be done. I just wonder how many people read it :). That said, the map check scripts could be modified to look for unauthorized arches also - some cases may be acceptable, but noting that jade coin appears in map xyz coudl still be useful. I'd also like copper coins, this will require value to have decemal points. Could we do that? IMO, no. There will always need to be a minimum value, and keeping that minimum 1 to me makes perfect sense. Adding decimalization adds a fair amount of complication, and as is, a value 1 object really isn't worth anything. I'd much rather go the approach of revalueing the existing money. Make the new copper coin worth 1. Make silver coins worth 5. If gold (10) and platinum (50) coins keep the same value, such a change in valuation isn't likely to affect things very much (unless players make huge piles of silver to anticipate that change). Or perhaps one that seems like more a hack but wouldn't have that problem - create 'new' coin - new copper, new silver, new gold, new platinum, etc coins as new archetypes. Put whatever valuation you want in them. Update treasure lists (and perhaps maps, but I'm not sure how many maps actually have coins piled on them) Maybe change the existing coins to be 'old' coins or 'ancient' coins. Thus, all new coinage that shows up should be these new coins with new valuation. However, those old coins still exist and can still be used with no inflation in value, so a player that has stockpiled piles of them doesn't get anything more from them (and if they find them in maps or something, not a big deal - old coins sitting in a dungeon wouldn't be that odd). I say all this because, as I've said before, at some level, you need a minimum value on objects. You can't use floats to store value because the precision for high/low values isn't there, and you'll get into all sorts of errors. So the only way to do this is what Brendan (I think it was) described, which is to multiply and divide internally. But even then, you are still stuck with some minimum, based on the multiply/divide values that are set up (if for example it is 100, then your minimum value is .01 - anything less is lost). But really, it comes down to the fact (to me) that a value 1 object is pretty nearly worthless, and I can't see need to have stuff worth less than that. So this really becomes a matter of a new coin standard, and that can be done with just archetype changes, which to me seems like the much better way to go. ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Banking system
On 25/12/05, Brendan Lally [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 12/25/05, Anton Oussik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I suspect this would also fix the client bug when the client crashes when it steps on a tile where something has nrof 2^32. Wouldn't stepping on non-money items which have a sufficiantly high nrof also trigger such a crash? Yes, it does. However you seldom encounter anything else in such quantities. ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Banking system
On 12/27/05, Anton Oussik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Also replying to several posts. Firstably card vs chequebook: I don't think there is plastic in CF, and so things should not be made out if it. Why do you assume that credit cards /must/ be made out of plastic? They could be made out of wood, or copper. In fact, credit cards give a saner way to charge the player, because real loan sha^W^W banks do exactly the same thing. Charge a fixed amount each year/month, everytime you buy something, send a request for payment of an amount vaguely related to the amount owed. Every $STUPIDLY_SHORT_SPACE_OF_TIME increment by BIGNUM You could then have differing credit limits backed by the amount that you have in the bank (and, maybe, the level of the player). - These could also have differing costs. Maybe there could also be a few cards that offer gimmicks - like a free dragon flight after you spend above a certain limit. In case you couldn't gues, I don't like credit card companies very much. ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Banking system
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 ERACC wrote: That is why I suggested a bank card that debits the bank account rather than a credit card. I don't think CF should implement a credit system. I see ways to exploit /that/ right now. Hmm.. I thought the discussion all along was for some sort of debit/check/cheque card that automatically deducts the money from your bank account *assuming* you have enough cash in there to cover the purchase. Otherwise you see some sort of message showing how much more money you need to make the purchase. I agree, I think it's a bad idea for a credit card or making purchases without cold hard cash to back it up. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFDsbmDhHyvgBp+vH4RAqqqAKDNYdG9Psbcuw2XfLmwSujwwRon/wCg7O68 Y0Soiyofjh3eTWQ1wdnhcZ0= =zXPP -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Banking system
My point about dropping money in the shop is more a convenience thing, not realism (using the 'r' word with crossfire is never a good idea). But my general thought is that if a bankkeeper is willing to accept usage of the check card (or whatever its called), it just makes it easier for players so they don't have to run to the bank every time they want to get rid of their coins. That's not one of the things I really like in real life, so could do without it in a game. As far as check books, various thoughts: 1) the bank itself could charge some fee (fixed percentage) of the money being deposited. After all, they are taking all those coins and storing them away. Number should probably be relatively low. 2) Shops could add some surcharge if using such a card. Perhaps make this a map property. Arguably, the bigger the purchase, the smaller (percentage wise) this charge would be. If you're buying something for 4 gp, its a bit of a bother for the shopkeeper to take that check and get the money. If you're spending 50,000 pp, the shop keeper would probably prefer that money get transferred directly to their bank account - they don't want 5 tons of platinum. If one was going to be more realistic, there really should be regional banks (scorn bank, navar city bank, etc), and you'd need to use the appropriate check book in the appropriate city (or the shops should demand a lot more money for using accounts of a foreign nature). Or perhaps the at the bank itself, you could transfer money, but with a fairly hefty fee (have to use magic after all to really confirm there is the money in that remote account, etc). But that really just makes things more a bother for the player. ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Banking system
A random thought is that if bank cards are used, and the shops can automatically add/debit them, then the question becomes how much different is that than just adding a stat. Although, I suppose a good case can be made the coins found in the dungeon would have to remain coins until you do get to town to deposit them (that said, life could be made easier - dropping a pile of coins in a shop automatically debits your card, etc). My only real point in all this is one should think of the long term plans and how this all works out. As for as deflating the economy, I see that as real difficult at current time. If we could go back in time, having copper coins or more valued coins make sense. But adding a new coin at 1/10th the price of the current silver makes no sense IMO. As it is, silver is already somewhat worthless (get a big enough pile, may be worth something, but you're never really going to use individual silver coins for much of anything. And to refactor all the current items in the games, those on maps, those in players inventories, etc, seems like a near impossible task. And this in itself doesn't help balance the economy much - I think it is fair to say the main source of money isn't gathering the coins, but rather selling the items you find, so it becomes more about the relation of those values. For that reason, reducing the money to a float, or conversion at load time, doesn't make a lot of sense. The minimum value being 1 is perfectly fine - at some level, you need some minimal value, and as things stand now, I can't see any reason something less than 1 is needed. It would be like adding a 1/10th cent to the US banking system - as things stand right now, the US 1 cent coin is pretty much worthless - what is the point add at 1/10th coin. ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Banking system
On 12/25/05, Anton Oussik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 25/12/05, Mark Wedel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anton Oussik wrote: On 24/12/05, Mark Wedel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At some level, it becomes a question of why not just make money a 'stat'. As said, this wouldn't be really hard. Add a uint64 field to the player object. I suspect this would also fix the client bug when the client crashes when it steps on a tile where something has nrof 2^32. Wouldn't stepping on non-money items which have a sufficiantly high nrof also trigger such a crash? ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Banking system
I think it should be made clear that these denomination notes are ankin to 10,000 USD and 1000,000 USD notes, respectivly. This should be put in the mappers hand book. I will be careful to not inflate my prices. Another thing I would like to have is the value variable as a double. That way we could have copper coins. Then we can make copper the new silver and deflate the economy (by editing the random wealth arch treasure list and the low and mid level monsters lists and putting in copper where silver is and silver where gold is and gold where plat is (and rarely a plat). This way money will have value again. Also conversion tables in banks for these new denominations, as they sound like something that would come from the east, shouldn't be in scorn or navar or brest. I think the conversion tables should only be in azamuindo, maybe (or maybe not) darcap (it may have stumbled upon some). All shops should accept them ofcourse but not give them as change (unless perhapse the shop has a given region set (azamuindo(sp)? darcap?). (Note: I'm opposed to the money as stat idea, I guess that was just a point being raised though for contrast). --- Mark Wedel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anton Oussik wrote: On 24/12/05, Mark Wedel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At some level, it becomes a question of why not just make money a 'stat'. Instead of gold pieces, silver, platinum, etc, floating in your inventory, something just says you have 123456 gold pieces. All this starts to get away from the discussion at hand, but is food for thought No, it is very much on topic - the main issue here is to avoid the need to have large piles of money lying about in apartments and having to carry more than your own weight in platinum in order to go outside to the shop (perhaps the subject is misnamed though ;-) ). Your idea seems more sensible. Perhaps make all players carry a special wallet/money pouch item, which is a container into which money automatically go and become weightless (or near enough so), which will say you have foo gold when clicked, and from which you can drop money? This could also be implemented as a property and interfaced by adding new server commands and adding a UI pouch... but that is for version 2 of CrossFire. As said, this wouldn't be really hard. Add a uint64 field to the player object. Modify the pickup code to check item type being picked up. if type == MONEY, add it to that stat, a don't insert it (this could actually be done in the insert_ob_in_ob for that matter to make sure all cases are caught). For new clients, add a mechanism for server to tell client this value - probably via stats command makes the most sense. For these new clients, it is then up to them how they should display that (could just be next to exp or something). For older clients, or maybe all clients until altars and the like are somehow fixed up, the server would fake inventory items for the coins. For simplicity, probably only fake gold pieces (I don't think anything actually requires silver or platinum, and faking only 1 object instead of 3, makes sense). When player tries to drop some gold, the server would catch it is a fake object, and convert the objects into a pile of gold and insert it into the map. Covers those altars, tables, etc. Also, allows players to trade gold easily. For these fake objects, the draw_look function of previous/next object in large stacks could be used - basically set the high bit on the object tag, and drop and examine would catch this special tag and do the right thing. It actually isn't that hard to do, and probably a good thing to do. The biggest issue is making sure it works - having a bug and wiping out peoples gold would be a pain. the only real oddity is the weight values - that 'stat' of gold would basically be weightless (or presumably a much lower weight than currently in place). That said, it would seem an easy fix right now is just change the current weight of coins - the weight is currently 10 - it could be reduced to 1, and increase carrying capacity tenfold. ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire __ Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Banking system
Please do not implement this. Gold is gold, silver is silver, plat is plat; elements, metals, useful in their own right. If you want a money pouch then what you want is a checkbook in addition to using what we have now. Mark was making a point in his post, saying basically 'this will make money as if it is nothing', contrast that thought with having a physical gold coin in you hand... gold coins are real not thin air. You want a checkbook. I can make the archtype face pic and perhapse cave can do the code, however real gold etc must not be mangled. --- Anton Oussik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 24/12/05, Mark Wedel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At some level, it becomes a question of why not just make money a 'stat'. Instead of gold pieces, silver, platinum, etc, floating in your inventory, something just says you have 123456 gold pieces. All this starts to get away from the discussion at hand, but is food for thought No, it is very much on topic - the main issue here is to avoid the need to have large piles of money lying about in apartments and having to carry more than your own weight in platinum in order to go outside to the shop (perhaps the subject is misnamed though ;-) ). Your idea seems more sensible. Perhaps make all players carry a special wallet/money pouch item, which is a container into which money automatically go and become weightless (or near enough so), which will say you have foo gold when clicked, and from which you can drop money? This could also be implemented as a property and interfaced by adding new server commands and adding a UI pouch... but that is for version 2 of CrossFire. ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire __ Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Banking system NO MONEY STAT, Use a checkbook if you want that.
PLLLEASE DO NOT change the weight of gold etc. Please DO NOT MAKE MONEY A STAT. GOLD CANNOT change into silver like magic etc. Do not do this please. If you want something like this then make a checkbook tied to the banking system. If gold coins, silver, etc are made into a stat I cannot work on this project anylonger. I have invested considerable effort in bullion arches etc. PLEASE DO NOT SCREW WITH GOLD, SILVER, AND PLAT coins! PLEASE DO NOT DO THIS. You want a checkbook, it can be made, I can make the checkbook face. PLEASE DO NOT SCREW WITH THE COINS. (Ps none of the players I spoke with want this change either, so the players are against it too). If you want a crossfire-simple mode then code that in as an option or fork off to a crossfire-simple project. Gold has a weight to value ration, PLEASE DO NOT FSCK WITH THIS!. If you are so concerned with the weight of the coins then make paper money for each region (in _addition_ to the bullion). Imperials should remain the international banking note, however. Damn.. every month there is a let's remove stuff iniative. GOLD IS NOT SILVER they ARE diffrent elements. THEY HAVE EXACT WEIGHT TO VALUE IN CROSSFIRE which I have based all my bullion and other metals on. DO NOT DO THIS. --- Anton Oussik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 25/12/05, Mark Wedel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anton Oussik wrote: On 24/12/05, Mark Wedel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At some level, it becomes a question of why not just make money a 'stat'. As said, this wouldn't be really hard. Add a uint64 field to the player object. I suspect this would also fix the client bug when the client crashes when it steps on a tile where something has nrof 2^32. The biggest issue is making sure it works - having a bug and wiping out peoples gold would be a pain. I agree, it would need a lot of testing before being put into production use. That said, it would seem an easy fix right now is just change the current weight of coins - the weight is currently 10 - it could be reduced to 1, and increase carrying capacity tenfold. Yes, one can do that, but then it would only be a workaround, and one that would not fix all money carrying related problems. ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire __ Yahoo! for Good - Make a difference this year. http://brand.yahoo.com/cybergivingweek2005/ ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Banking system
On Sunday 25 December 2005 01:37 am Miguel Ghobangieno wrote: You want a checkbook. I can make the archtype face pic and perhapse cave can do the code How about a bank card that is tied to the banking system? There would then be reason to deposit money in the banks. Could charge a fee for use of the card too, or not. I think keeping the coins in the system is a good thing. Removing them, not so good. For very costly items deposit in the bank and use a bank card in the shops, etc. Also making the existing bank notes work as cash would be a good thing. Gene -- Mandriva Linux release 2006.0 (Official) for i586 19:31:37 up 10 days, 2:38, 10 users, load average: 0.00, 0.02, 0.00 ERA Computer Consulting - http://www.eracc.com/ eComStation, Linux, FreeBSD, OpenServer UnixWare resellers ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Banking system
PLEASE don't implement this (gold, plat, silver as a stat). What you want is a check book. If the player has the checkbook applied the $$ will be deducted or added to his account. Please don't alter the gold weight/value ration (nor the silver etc). Please don't make money a stat. I will make a checkbook arch face. uint64 is good. value as a double (so we can add copper coins) would be good too. Please keep the coins as they are though. Please no money stat. (Also when is the jade etc coins going in? I think they should exist and be acceppted but not given as change except if region = azamuindo (perhapse another? darcap? maybe just azamuindo). --- Brendan Lally [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 12/25/05, Anton Oussik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 25/12/05, Mark Wedel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anton Oussik wrote: On 24/12/05, Mark Wedel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At some level, it becomes a question of why not just make money a 'stat'. As said, this wouldn't be really hard. Add a uint64 field to the player object. I suspect this would also fix the client bug when the client crashes when it steps on a tile where something has nrof 2^32. Wouldn't stepping on non-money items which have a sufficiantly high nrof also trigger such a crash? ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire __ Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Banking system
On 12/24/05, Anton Oussik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thinking about lalo's patch, an interesting idea would be to make a patch that makes the banking system more useful by introducing the following changes to the banks: - Gain interest on money deposited [snip] In my opinion this will encourage people to use the banking system to store money. It would, but I think there would need to be an associated opportunity cost, otherwise there would be no incentive to keep liquid capital. maybe something like 'real' banks do, where there are two accounts, one a currant account against which cheques are drawn, and a savings account, which takes a week (or more) to take money from, has a high transaction charge, and also offers a reasonable interest rate. This would unfortunatly require a more complex interface. ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Banking system
Brendan Lally wrote: On 12/24/05, Anton Oussik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thinking about lalo's patch, an interesting idea would be to make a patch that makes the banking system more useful by introducing the following changes to the banks: - Gain interest on money deposited [snip] Interest is probably a bad idea - you might very well get players gaining more money from interest than they can from adventuring. In my opinion this will encourage people to use the banking system to store money. It would, but I think there would need to be an associated opportunity cost, otherwise there would be no incentive to keep liquid capital. maybe something like 'real' banks do, where there are two accounts, one a currant account against which cheques are drawn, and a savings account, which takes a week (or more) to take money from, has a high transaction charge, and also offers a reasonable interest rate. This would unfortunatly require a more complex interface. At some level, it becomes a question of why not just make money a 'stat'. Instead of gold pieces, silver, platinum, etc, floating in your inventory, something just says you have 123456 gold pieces. That would actually simplify the code - look at a lot of the shop code to try to figure out if the player has enough money, as well as to give the player money. If it was just a stat, all that becomes a simple add/delete operation. It would add some complexity to the pickup code - when picking up money, it would have to just add to that stat, but that wouldn't be that hard. The hardest part in this is dealing with things where you need to drop money to activating them. Some form of legacy interface would be needed, but even that wouldn't be that hard (could just use some unique tag number to make a synthetic object in the players inventory or something). All this starts to get away from the discussion at hand, but is food for thought ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Banking system
On 24/12/05, Mark Wedel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At some level, it becomes a question of why not just make money a 'stat'. Instead of gold pieces, silver, platinum, etc, floating in your inventory, something just says you have 123456 gold pieces. All this starts to get away from the discussion at hand, but is food for thought No, it is very much on topic - the main issue here is to avoid the need to have large piles of money lying about in apartments and having to carry more than your own weight in platinum in order to go outside to the shop (perhaps the subject is misnamed though ;-) ). Your idea seems more sensible. Perhaps make all players carry a special wallet/money pouch item, which is a container into which money automatically go and become weightless (or near enough so), which will say you have foo gold when clicked, and from which you can drop money? This could also be implemented as a property and interfaced by adding new server commands and adding a UI pouch... but that is for version 2 of CrossFire. ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
Re: [crossfire] Banking system
Anton Oussik wrote: On 24/12/05, Mark Wedel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At some level, it becomes a question of why not just make money a 'stat'. Instead of gold pieces, silver, platinum, etc, floating in your inventory, something just says you have 123456 gold pieces. All this starts to get away from the discussion at hand, but is food for thought No, it is very much on topic - the main issue here is to avoid the need to have large piles of money lying about in apartments and having to carry more than your own weight in platinum in order to go outside to the shop (perhaps the subject is misnamed though ;-) ). Your idea seems more sensible. Perhaps make all players carry a special wallet/money pouch item, which is a container into which money automatically go and become weightless (or near enough so), which will say you have foo gold when clicked, and from which you can drop money? This could also be implemented as a property and interfaced by adding new server commands and adding a UI pouch... but that is for version 2 of CrossFire. As said, this wouldn't be really hard. Add a uint64 field to the player object. Modify the pickup code to check item type being picked up. if type == MONEY, add it to that stat, a don't insert it (this could actually be done in the insert_ob_in_ob for that matter to make sure all cases are caught). For new clients, add a mechanism for server to tell client this value - probably via stats command makes the most sense. For these new clients, it is then up to them how they should display that (could just be next to exp or something). For older clients, or maybe all clients until altars and the like are somehow fixed up, the server would fake inventory items for the coins. For simplicity, probably only fake gold pieces (I don't think anything actually requires silver or platinum, and faking only 1 object instead of 3, makes sense). When player tries to drop some gold, the server would catch it is a fake object, and convert the objects into a pile of gold and insert it into the map. Covers those altars, tables, etc. Also, allows players to trade gold easily. For these fake objects, the draw_look function of previous/next object in large stacks could be used - basically set the high bit on the object tag, and drop and examine would catch this special tag and do the right thing. It actually isn't that hard to do, and probably a good thing to do. The biggest issue is making sure it works - having a bug and wiping out peoples gold would be a pain. the only real oddity is the weight values - that 'stat' of gold would basically be weightless (or presumably a much lower weight than currently in place). That said, it would seem an easy fix right now is just change the current weight of coins - the weight is currently 10 - it could be reduced to 1, and increase carrying capacity tenfold. ___ crossfire mailing list crossfire@metalforge.org http://mailman.metalforge.org/mailman/listinfo/crossfire
