Re: [CTRL] A Fresh Look At Clinton

[William Hugh Tunstall]

 -Caveat Lector-

With all due respect, Reverend, I think you are confused on a number of
key issues. The Republican party has championed the idea of trying to
impose the Christian fundamentalist agenda on the country.  It is
President Bill Clinton who has tried bring some measure of diversity to
the political process ( his willingness to appoint gays and women to key
positions in government).

On Thu, 17 Dec 1998, Reverend S. Michael Wilson wrote:

  -Caveat Lector-

 WARNING:  What follows is a personal opinion piece that does NOT go into
 detail about perjury under oath, dishonesty, political scandal, cigars, or
 anything else that has been gracing the headlines for the past months.  Do not
 simply delete this, thinking that it is nothing but more of the same old
 Republican Moralistic Posturing, or outraged cries of “It’s not about sex!”
 The following is something I consider to be fresh stomping ground, and should
 cause those who are capable of thinking to do so.
 With Bill Clinton’s impeachment trials just around the corner, and public
 opinion on the fairness and legitimacy of the crusade against Clinton being
 espoused and dictated by more polls and editorials than the average human can
 normally stomach in a single sitting, I have decided to finally throw my own
 conscience grenades into the philosophical battlegrounds.  I fully realise
 that anybody and everybody has their own beliefs on the subject of Clinton’s
 “High Crimes  Misdemeanours” as of late, and be they political or moral
 justifications, most of them tend to echo and repeat one another with similar
 (if not identical) arguments.
 It is with this knowledge that I am offering my own thoughts on the matter
 for public consumption, for I feel that I have taken a standpoint on this
 whole Circus Politicus that has not been touched upon by anybody.  Some may
 have hinted in this direction, and others may have poorly summed it up in a
 snappy catch-phrase of some kind, but I am positive that what follows has not
 yet been properly preached by anyone.  Allow me to be the first.
 Simply put, I say nail the bastard, and for no other reason than getting
 even.  What do I mean?  Well, many of Clinton’s defenders are quit fond of
 stating that the only thing that The President is guilty of is cheating on his
 wife and lying about it, and while Adultery is a bad and naughty thing, it is
 by no means reason for impeachment, and should only be of concern to “him, his
 wife, and his priest”.  Not a bad argument, especially for anyone like myself,
 who feels that the personal life of one individual is no business of anybody
 but himself, as long as his personal life is in no way harming or victimising
 another individual.  Since most people tend to be (or merely think of
 themselves as) rational on this level, this argument tends to hold its own.
 After all, this is a free country.
 Or is it?
 Aren’t we free to consume what we please, as long as we do not harm or
 victimise anybody else?  Yes, we are.  But then, what about the countless
 Americans that are arrested and imprisoned for using recreational drugs that
 are not deemed legal by our government?  Does the pot smoker who lives in the
 apartment next to me pose any direct threat to me or anybody else, merely
 because he is smoking pot?  Is he any more of a threat to you or me then the
 millions of people who consume legal drugs like nicotine and caffeine and
 alcohol.  People are harassed and imprisoned, their possessions confiscated
 and sold, their lives torn apart, not because they have used a mind altering
 substance for recreational purposes, but because they have used a mind
 altering substance that our government does not approve of for recreational
 purposes.
 Aren’t we free to pursue personal and intimate relationships with whomever we
 want to, as long as we do not harm or victimise anybody else in the process?
 Yes, we are.  But then, what about the countless men and women who are
 arrested and imprisoned for sleeping with one another, because one of them has
 paid the other for the privilege?  Does the prostitute standing on the street
 corner or sitting in the brothel pose any direct threat to me or anybody else,
 simply because she is offering to have sex with someone in exchange for money?
 Or the john that of his own free will offers to pay her for her services, does
 he pose any direct threat to me or anybody else, merely because he is willing
 to take her up on her offer?  Going beyond that, what about all of the gay and
 lesbian couples who are unable to legally enjoy a mutual existence the way any
 heterosexual couple can, because our government has seen fit to judge them as
 unworthy of vowing themselves to one another?  What about the gays and
 lesbians who have been told that they are not worthy of fighting and possibly
 dying for their country because of their sexual preference, but that they may
 still join as 

Re: [CTRL] Honour Among ...

[Sno0wl]

 -Caveat Lector-

On 17 Dec 98 , Alamaine wrote:

  -Caveat Lector-

 From http://www.rollcall.com

 Livingston Confesses Affairs

 By Jim VandeHei

 House Speaker Bob Livingston (R-La.) tonight plans to disclose to the
 Republican Conference that he has had sexual affairs in his past and will
 offer to resign his post, according to GOP sources.

And I say that before they hold Clinton over the spit, let every
single on of those legislators who has had an extramarital affair
step downand let's see who's left.

I think the scene might look like one of those lottery commercials.
You know--the one where everyone races out of the concert hall.


sno0wl

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Re: [CTRL] A Kinder, Gentler Lynch Mob

[Sno0wl]

 -Caveat Lector-

On 17 Dec 98 , Alamaine wrote:

  -Caveat Lector-

 Not to nose in nor to be imprudent, but:

 Ironically, whether the Congress or the people who (supposedly) put them
 there like it or not, the whole debate has raised the level of
 understanding about their government.  I'm not sure anyone really intended
 for this to happen or is ready for the results, outcome, or conclusion.  I
 liken it to a distilling process where all the ingredients -- including
 impurities -- are being precipitated out of the mass.  I have never seen
 the government in so much chaos -- it's as if the ship of state has been
 caught in a typhoon and we're hoping someone knows how to steer it to
 calmer waters.  Nonetheless, everyone's sailorness is being tested and new
 knowledge and skills are being gained at every tossing by the waves and
 every gust of wind.  I imagine some will be unable to keep their bearings
 and some will swept overboard.

Almaine, you write as if we're not all on this boat together, as if
most of us are not locked in steerage and have no chance to
contribute our sailorly skills.  Someone else is at the wheel and
they've made it clear they're not gonna take any advice. So, if the
boat's going down. we're all gonna go down together.

Personally, I think the guys ostensibly at the wheel need a course in
navigation pronto.


sno0wl

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Re: [CTRL] A Kinder, Gentler Lynch Mob

[Sno0wl]

 -Caveat Lector-

On 17 Dec 98 , [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

   Yes, we see now that there is no difference between d's and r's.
   Bush
  had a War for his interests in oil, and Clinton is having a War to draw
  attention away from the impeachment.   

 Why didn't you want to impeach George Bush?  Prudy

GB's Desert Storm revolved around billions of dollars in personal
profits.BC's Desert Fox revolves around a lie about being in a
room with a young woman who wanted to be alone with him

Why didn't we impeach George Bush?
sno0wl

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
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Re: [CTRL] Perjury

[Sno0wl]

 -Caveat Lector-

On 17 Dec 98 , KA wrote:

  -Caveat Lector-

 On Thu, 17 Dec 1998 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  sexual harassment IS a crime. 
 
 I don't think asking is a crime?

 Sure it is, if the person asking is in a position of authority.

Gee, June--
My Mom was a pretty young secretary at a fancy celebrity club and my
Dad was an older "celebrity" when they met. Guess my Dad committed a
crimeand here I am!  Always thought there was something fishy
about the whole situation, although, for a time there, my Mom thought
she had gotten a real good deal!

Actually, it was their greatest hope that I would do the same
thing--get a job as a young clerk and marry an important,
wealthy executive. Lots of people did it in the 40s and 50s. Needless
to say, I was a great disappointment.

I take it you favor a strict caste system. Would you say that "The
Nanny" portrays a criminal situation?

sno0wl

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
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Om

Re: [CTRL] A Kinder, Gentler Lynch Mob

[M. A. Johnson]

 -Caveat Lector-

William Hugh Tunstall wrote (with snippage):

The Family Leave Act was an excellent idea.
Also, the Clinton administration attempt to get a national health
insurance program going.
MJ:
How is socialism compatible with a Nation founded upon LIBERTY,
FREEDOM and an individual's RIGHT to his OWN life?  Can you cite
any Constitutional authority for this?

It is unfortunate that so many are SCARED of these ideals.


William Hugh Tunstall wrote (with snippage):
But perhaps President Clinton's greatest contribution during
the past eight years has been his willingness to insure that
some of the more draconian social measures of the Republican
party were not signed into law.
MJ:
Can you elaborate?  I thought the Duopoly were pretty consistent
with one another -- you have the 'well to the left Ds AND the just
to the 'right' of them Rs (yet still 'well to the left').

Regard$,
--MJ

Our Unconstitutional Congress
by Walter E. Williams

Stephen Moore, director of fiscal studies at the Washington-based
Cato Institute, spoke at Hillsdale College. His comments were
published in Imprimus. Reading through his remarks, one can
safely conclude that today's Washington politicians, compared
to those of yesterday, are constitutional cowards and rogues.

In 1794, James Madison, disapproving a $15,000 appropriation for
French refugees said, "I cannot undertake to lay my finger on
that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress
of expending, on the objects of benevolence, the money of their
constituents." That Congress should heed the Constitution was
forcefully restated two years later by Virginia's Congressman
William Giles when he condemned a disaster relief measure
saying it was neither the purpose nor the right of Congress
to "attend to what generosity and humanity require, but to what
the Constitution and their duty require."

This kind of constitutional respect was also found in the White
House. In 1854, President Franklin Pierce vetoed a bill to help
the mentally ill, saying, "I cannot find any authority in the
Constitution for public charity. . . . [and to approve such
spending] would be contrary to the letter and the spirit of the
Constitution and subversive to the whole theory upon which the
Union of these States is founded." President Grover Cleveland
vetoed hundreds of congressional spending bills because, as he
often wrote, "I can find no warrant for such an appropriation
in the Constitution."

The Constitution enumerates what Congress can do: establish Post
Offices, raise and support an army and navy, declare war and
conduct a few other activities related mostly to national defense.
To my knowledge, the Constitution has not been amended to
authorize Congress to spend money for farm subsidies, bailouts,
Social Security, welfare, not to mention midnight basketball
and tennis court and swimming pool construction.

Congress has found ingenious ways to subvert constitutional
limitations; one of them is the "interstate commerce clause."
In a recent case before the U.S. Supreme Court, Justice Scalia
asked the Justice Department's Solicitor General to name a
single activity or program that our modern-day Congress might
undertake that would fall outside the bounds of the Constitution.
The stunned Clinton appointee could not think of any. The Framers
would cringe at that response.

The bottom line conclusion is that we have a corrupt Congress
and White House aided and abetted by a derelict Supreme Court.
While they do their mischief, we're being led down the road to
serfdom. But what can we do about it? There are drastic measures
suggested by people like Thomas Jefferson, who said, "Rebellion
to tyrants is obedience to God." Jefferson added that, "The tree
of Liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood
of patriots and tyrants."

However, before we even think about drastic measures, we have
to own up to the fact that politicians are a relatively small
part of the problem. After all what would we do, as voters, to
a congressman, like William Giles of yesteryear, who respected
the Constitution and condemned fire relief payments because
they exceeded congressional authority? What would we do to a
President who took Franklin Pierce's position that there's no
constitutional authority for public charity? We'd run them out
of town on a rail. Our kind of Congressman or President is the
person who "cares" and has the deepest contempt for constitution
limitations.

None of this means that we're going down the tubes as a great
nation right away. After all when the Titanic struck that
iceberg, everything was okay . . . for a while.

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and 

Re: [CTRL] Honour Among ...

[M. A. Johnson]

 -Caveat Lector-

Sno0wl wrote:
   And I say that before they hold Clinton over the spit, let
   every single on of those legislators who has had an extramarital
   affair step downand let's see who's left.

MJ:
Perhaps I missed it, but could you kindly posit those articles
of impeachment which 'condemn' the President for an 'extramarital
affair'?

Regard$,
--MJ

You vote for me and I´ll give you family values. ... I promise
you the most ethical administration in the history of our
country. -- Bill Clinton.

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Om

Re: [CTRL] Honour Among ...

[A.C. Szul]

 -Caveat Lector-

The private lives of our reps ought to remain as such.

Papers like Roll Call and dirt mags like Hustler, both allegedly involved in the
Livingston expose, apparently have nothing better to do but go on WH tips and
reveal crap no one out here really cares about. Yuck!

Tonite, Drudge reports that the WH knew about the Livingston affairs. Three words,
folks: 900 FBI files.

Does anyone really care whether a guy, who's been married for over 30 years, with
a couple kids, strays? Naw, I sure don't. And I would say the same thing if he was
a Dem!

Now before ya'll jump all over this and say it's a double standard b/c we're after
BC for his affairs, hold your horses.

Livingston didn't
  -lie about it to a federal grand jury;
  obstruct justice b/c of those affair(s);
  consciously have others lie for him;
  and so forth.

Livingston did none of that. And Livingston ain't the POTUS either. The POTUS is
held to a higher standard. Higher than anyone else. And he knows it. We know. And
the House knows it. That's why BC ought to be impeached tomorrow.

Sno0wl wrote:

  -Caveat Lector-

 On 17 Dec 98 , Alamaine wrote:

   -Caveat Lector-
 
  From http://www.rollcall.com
 
  Livingston Confesses Affairs
 
  By Jim VandeHei
 
  House Speaker Bob Livingston (R-La.) tonight plans to disclose to the
  Republican Conference that he has had sexual affairs in his past and will
  offer to resign his post, according to GOP sources.

 And I say that before they hold Clinton over the spit, let every
 single on of those legislators who has had an extramarital affair
 step downand let's see who's left.

 I think the scene might look like one of those lottery commercials.
 You know--the one where everyone races out of the concert hall.

 sno0wl

-snip
Regards,
-A
http://www.erols.com/mack97
"The sharpest tool in the shed." -- anonymous

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
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Om

Re: [CTRL] Honour Among ...

[William Hugh Tunstall]

 -Caveat Lector-

MJ-

I guess you're not up on your Clinton trivia.  The Republican Party's
campaign to subvert two national elections began eight years ago...
Starting with Larry Nichols/Rush Limbaugh...and other honchos in the
Republican party who used talk radio to do character assassinations of
President Clinton...  Usually, these dirty tricks campaign involved
drumming up one phony allegation after another and serving it up for the
ditto heads. Clinton had Vince Foster murdered; Clinton operated a
satanic kiddie porno ring at the Governor's School in Little Rock; Clinton
ran drugs out of Mena, Arkansas;... one allegation after another...

Your brethren on the far right decided that they could bring him down by
destroying his character.  and of course, it didn't work very well,
MJ.  He was reelectedand to the horror of your compatriots, the public
really weren't interested in what the far right was serving up.  That is
why Newt was asked to step down..



On Fri, 18 Dec 1998, M. A. Johnson wrote:

  -Caveat Lector-

 Sno0wl wrote:
And I say that before they hold Clinton over the spit, let
every single on of those legislators who has had an extramarital
affair step downand let's see who's left.

 MJ:
 Perhaps I missed it, but could you kindly posit those articles
 of impeachment which 'condemn' the President for an 'extramarital
 affair'?

 Regard$,
 --MJ

 You vote for me and I´ll give you family values. ... I promise
 you the most ethical administration in the history of our
 country. -- Bill Clinton.

 DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
 ==
 CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
 screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
 and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
 frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
 spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
 gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
 be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
 nazi's need not apply.

 Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

 
 To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
 SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
 SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Om


DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Om

Re: [CTRL] A Kinder, Gentler Lynch Mob

[William Hugh Tunstall]

 -Caveat Lector-

MJ-
I respectfully disagree with your idea that the nation was founded upon
LIBERTY.first disagreement: Liberty for whom?  White males? Blacks?
Women? Native Americans?

Socialism means what to you?  We can spend an eternity parsing words...'
I would only point out that these abstractions (capitalism, socialism,
etc) are debatable terms..

On Fri, 18 Dec 1998, M. A. Johnson wrote:

  -Caveat Lector-

 William Hugh Tunstall wrote (with snippage):

 The Family Leave Act was an excellent idea.
 Also, the Clinton administration attempt to get a national health
 insurance program going.
 MJ:
 How is socialism compatible with a Nation founded upon LIBERTY,
 FREEDOM and an individual's RIGHT to his OWN life?  Can you cite
 any Constitutional authority for this?

 It is unfortunate that so many are SCARED of these ideals.


 William Hugh Tunstall wrote (with snippage):
 But perhaps President Clinton's greatest contribution during
 the past eight years has been his willingness to insure that
 some of the more draconian social measures of the Republican
 party were not signed into law.
 MJ:
 Can you elaborate?  I thought the Duopoly were pretty consistent
 with one another -- you have the 'well to the left Ds AND the just
 to the 'right' of them Rs (yet still 'well to the left').

 Regard$,
 --MJ

 Our Unconstitutional Congress
 by Walter E. Williams

 Stephen Moore, director of fiscal studies at the Washington-based
 Cato Institute, spoke at Hillsdale College. His comments were
 published in Imprimus. Reading through his remarks, one can
 safely conclude that today's Washington politicians, compared
 to those of yesterday, are constitutional cowards and rogues.

 In 1794, James Madison, disapproving a $15,000 appropriation for
 French refugees said, "I cannot undertake to lay my finger on
 that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress
 of expending, on the objects of benevolence, the money of their
 constituents." That Congress should heed the Constitution was
 forcefully restated two years later by Virginia's Congressman
 William Giles when he condemned a disaster relief measure
 saying it was neither the purpose nor the right of Congress
 to "attend to what generosity and humanity require, but to what
 the Constitution and their duty require."

 This kind of constitutional respect was also found in the White
 House. In 1854, President Franklin Pierce vetoed a bill to help
 the mentally ill, saying, "I cannot find any authority in the
 Constitution for public charity. . . . [and to approve such
 spending] would be contrary to the letter and the spirit of the
 Constitution and subversive to the whole theory upon which the
 Union of these States is founded." President Grover Cleveland
 vetoed hundreds of congressional spending bills because, as he
 often wrote, "I can find no warrant for such an appropriation
 in the Constitution."

 The Constitution enumerates what Congress can do: establish Post
 Offices, raise and support an army and navy, declare war and
 conduct a few other activities related mostly to national defense.
 To my knowledge, the Constitution has not been amended to
 authorize Congress to spend money for farm subsidies, bailouts,
 Social Security, welfare, not to mention midnight basketball
 and tennis court and swimming pool construction.

 Congress has found ingenious ways to subvert constitutional
 limitations; one of them is the "interstate commerce clause."
 In a recent case before the U.S. Supreme Court, Justice Scalia
 asked the Justice Department's Solicitor General to name a
 single activity or program that our modern-day Congress might
 undertake that would fall outside the bounds of the Constitution.
 The stunned Clinton appointee could not think of any. The Framers
 would cringe at that response.

 The bottom line conclusion is that we have a corrupt Congress
 and White House aided and abetted by a derelict Supreme Court.
 While they do their mischief, we're being led down the road to
 serfdom. But what can we do about it? There are drastic measures
 suggested by people like Thomas Jefferson, who said, "Rebellion
 to tyrants is obedience to God." Jefferson added that, "The tree
 of Liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood
 of patriots and tyrants."

 However, before we even think about drastic measures, we have
 to own up to the fact that politicians are a relatively small
 part of the problem. After all what would we do, as voters, to
 a congressman, like William Giles of yesteryear, who respected
 the Constitution and condemned fire relief payments because
 they exceeded congressional authority? What would we do to a
 President who took Franklin Pierce's position that there's no
 constitutional authority for public charity? We'd run them out
 of town on a rail. Our kind of Congressman or President is the
 person who "cares" and has the deepest contempt for constitution
 limitations.

 None of 

Re: [CTRL] Honour Among ...

[William Hugh Tunstall]

 -Caveat Lector-

Public discourse has sunk to this level because one of our major parties
is on a crusade.

As a result of their error, they've lost seven seats in the House and
their leader has had to take a hike...

On Fri, 18 Dec 1998, A.C. Szul wrote:

  -Caveat Lector-

 The private lives of our reps ought to remain as such.

 Papers like Roll Call and dirt mags like Hustler, both allegedly involved in the
 Livingston expose, apparently have nothing better to do but go on WH tips and
 reveal crap no one out here really cares about. Yuck!

 Tonite, Drudge reports that the WH knew about the Livingston affairs. Three words,
 folks: 900 FBI files.

 Does anyone really care whether a guy, who's been married for over 30 years, with
 a couple kids, strays? Naw, I sure don't. And I would say the same thing if he was
 a Dem!

 Now before ya'll jump all over this and say it's a double standard b/c we're after
 BC for his affairs, hold your horses.

 Livingston didn't
   -lie about it to a federal grand jury;
   obstruct justice b/c of those affair(s);
   consciously have others lie for him;
   and so forth.

 Livingston did none of that. And Livingston ain't the POTUS either. The POTUS is
 held to a higher standard. Higher than anyone else. And he knows it. We know. And
 the House knows it. That's why BC ought to be impeached tomorrow.

 Sno0wl wrote:

   -Caveat Lector-
 
  On 17 Dec 98 , Alamaine wrote:
 
-Caveat Lector-
  
   From http://www.rollcall.com
  
   Livingston Confesses Affairs
  
   By Jim VandeHei
  
   House Speaker Bob Livingston (R-La.) tonight plans to disclose to the
   Republican Conference that he has had sexual affairs in his past and will
   offer to resign his post, according to GOP sources.
 
  And I say that before they hold Clinton over the spit, let every
  single on of those legislators who has had an extramarital affair
  step downand let's see who's left.
 
  I think the scene might look like one of those lottery commercials.
  You know--the one where everyone races out of the concert hall.
 
  sno0wl

 -snip
 Regards,
 -A
 http://www.erols.com/mack97
 "The sharpest tool in the shed." -- anonymous

 DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
 ==
 CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
 screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
 and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
 frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
 spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
 gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
 be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
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DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
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screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
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Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Om

Re: [CTRL] A Kinder, Gentler Lynch Mob

[M. A. Johnson]

 -Caveat Lector-

William Hugh Tunstall wrote:
I respectfully disagree with your idea that the nation was
founded upon LIBERTY.first disagreement: Liberty for
whom?  White males? Blacks? Women? Native Americans?

MJ:
That of course was left up to the STATES to decide, though they
were instructed regarding the MODEL for government in Article 4,
section 4.

Regard$,
--MJ

In the end more than they wanted freedom, they wanted security.
When the Athenians finally wanted not to give to society but for
society to give to them, when the freedom they wished for was
freedom from responsibility, then Athens ceased to be free.
-- Edward Gibbon (1737-1794)

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Om

Re: [CTRL] Honour Among ...

[M. A. Johnson]

 -Caveat Lector-

Mr. Tunstall,

With all due respect ... I think you have me confused with
a Republican -- who in general are merely a little to the
'right' of the Democrats who are 'well to the left'.  *I*
am just to the left of Anarchy realizing that government
is needed to avoid endless gang warfare -- prefering a
simple standard found within the Document that dissolved
the government bonds within this country and formed the
philosophy by which our Constitution was drafted.

If you would like to posit a response to my post rather than
putting me in a box which is more easily dismissed -- at least
by association, I am all ears.

Regard$,
Michael


What's *just* has been debated for centuries but let me offer
you my definition of social justice: I keep what I earn and you
keep what you earn. Do you disagree? Well then tell me how much
of what I earn *belongs* to you -- and why?   --Walter Williams


William Hugh Tunstall wrote:

  -Caveat Lector-

 MJ-

 I guess you're not up on your Clinton trivia.  The Republican Party's
 campaign to subvert two national elections began eight years ago...
 Starting with Larry Nichols/Rush Limbaugh...and other honchos in the
 Republican party who used talk radio to do character assassinations of
 President Clinton...  Usually, these dirty tricks campaign involved
 drumming up one phony allegation after another and serving it up for the
 ditto heads. Clinton had Vince Foster murdered; Clinton operated a
 satanic kiddie porno ring at the Governor's School in Little Rock; Clinton
 ran drugs out of Mena, Arkansas;... one allegation after another...

 Your brethren on the far right decided that they could bring him down by
 destroying his character.  and of course, it didn't work very well,
 MJ.  He was reelectedand to the horror of your compatriots, the public
 really weren't interested in what the far right was serving up.  That is
 why Newt was asked to step down..

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Om

[CTRL] Second Opinion

[Laura Shipton]

 -Caveat Lector-

Well worth reading.

http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/living/SecondOpinion/secondopinion.html

Laura
aka The Pied Piper
--

my ICQ# 14484977
Education: A House of Mirrors
http://members.xoom.com/ThePiedPiper/Intro2.htm
Legislation and what we are allowing by Letting our
children be labeled as only ADD or ADHD
http://www.cec.sped.org/faq/gt-ld.htm (New 16 Oct 98)

3) Uncover Myths in Education
Myth 1 That Home Schoolers Need to be under the
Umbrella of a Church or Religious Group.
http://www.home-ed-press.com/INF/FREE/hsinfo_far1.html
**
1. Take the 60-day No Aspartame Test and send us your case history.
Mission Possible International
5950-H State Bridge Rd. #215
Duluth, GA 30097 USA
2. Tell your doctor and all of your friends!
3. Return Asparcidal food to the store.
(anything with Monsanto's
NutraSweet/Equal/Spoonful/Benevia/NatraTaste)
VISIT http://www.dorway.com/possible.html Get links to over 30 sites
VISIT http://www.holisticmed.com/aspartame/   ..FAQs  Cases
VISIT http://www.notmilk.com Exposing Bovine Growth Hormone
Disability and Death are not acceptable costs of business!

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Om

Re: [CTRL] A Kinder, Gentler Lynch Mob

[Alamaine Ratliff]

 -Caveat Lector-

In reference to "myrmidons":  I tend to think of myself as one who's just
buying or bought a season {lifetime} ticket to the event (watching the
'race') ... I would agree that there may be an objective to (exert, retain)
'influence' (over) the public ... but one must be able to look beyond the
stage set or what is made apparent to the casual viewer ... look at TV as
though you were one of the crew on the set ... a delving into the art of it
all rather than the illusory reality; seeing the mirrors rather than the
multiple reflections therein ...


AER

The only real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes
but in having new eyes. -Marcel Proust

--
: From: M. A. Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
: To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
: Subject: Re: [CTRL] A Kinder, Gentler Lynch Mob
: Date: Thursday, December 17, 1998 5:26 PM
:
:  -Caveat Lector-
:
: Alamaine Ratliff wrote:
: Ironically, whether the Congress or the people who (supposedly)
: put them there like it or not, the whole debate has raised the
: level of understanding about their government.
:
: MJ:
: Are you certain it is NOT a 'race' to see who can 'instruct'
: the public on what they are to believe?  We are a body politic
: of myrmidons for the most part.
:
: Regard$,
: --MJ
:
: It doesn't matter what is true, it only matters what people
: believe is true.
:  -- Paul Watson, founder of Greenpeace and Sea Shepherd
:
: DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
: ==
: CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting
propagandic
: screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid
matters
: and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and
outright
: frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor
effects
: spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
: gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to
readers;
: be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
: nazi's need not apply.
:
: Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.
:
: 
: To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
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:
: Om

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Om

Re: [CTRL] A Kinder, Gentler Lynch Mob

[Alamaine Ratliff]

 -Caveat Lector-

I'll have to extend my metaphor into a 'fleet', where the flagship pretty
much leads and the rest of the ships, boats, watercraft in this political
regatta just follow along ... in this sense, no, we're not all on the same
vessel, but theoretically heading toward the same port of call ... once the
tempest hits, it's pretty much each vessel that must find it's own way to
calmer waters ... the 'someone' is indefinite; when it's a matter of sail
or sink, sailorliness can be found in the most unlikely of persons.  This
would apply to Y2K survivalists, e.g.  As a matter of fact, where are
Abbott  Costello ("What's on first ...") ?

What's struck me in the last week is the sheer power the president has at
the same time when the House of Congress is preparing the political yardarm
or plank, led by a fellow who has an outstanding warrant for a similar but
perhaps lesser offense, who's fought to replace another fellow about to go
on walkabout.  Then there's Lott ... listened to him today; didn't
understand a word he said ...

It's as though the sea anchor has been let out and everyone's just gonna
ride out the storm, checking the knots and wind direction every so often
.. I agree with Billio:  it's like a fiction with a random plot ...

There was a movie some years back in which the main portion of the cast
would travel through time just to witness disasters -- as if on a tour.
Can't remember the name.  It's like that:  just hanging around to see what
the next plot twist will be, which disaster is next on the intinerary.


AER

The only real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes
but in having new eyes. -Marcel Proust

--
: From: Sno0wl [EMAIL PROTECTED]
: To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
: Subject: Re: [CTRL] A Kinder, Gentler Lynch Mob
: Date: Thursday, December 17, 1998 4:00 PM
:
:  -Caveat Lector-
:
: Almaine, you write as if we're not all on this boat together, as if
: most of us are not locked in steerage and have no chance to
: contribute our sailorly skills.  Someone else is at the wheel and
: they've made it clear they're not gonna take any advice. So, if the
: boat's going down. we're all gonna go down together.
:
: Personally, I think the guys ostensibly at the wheel need a course in
: navigation pronto.
:
:
: sno0wl
:
: DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
: ==
: CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting
propagandic
: screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid
matters
: and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and
outright
: frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor
effects
: spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
: gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to
readers;
: be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
: nazi's need not apply.
:
: Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.
:
: 
: To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
: SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
:
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:
: Om

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Om

Re: [CTRL] Honour Among ...

[Alamaine Ratliff]

 -Caveat Lector-

From listening to some of the 'news' shows last evening, it may be likely
that BL's past liaisons could be investigated or just looked into ... never
know what can turn up when it's least expected; after all, even Revvin'
Jerry was taken aback by BL's drive to get the Speaker seat when he knew
his own history better than anyone ... considering one person's
indiscretion wound up on the House floor, what's to stop any more ?


AER

The only real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes
but in having new eyes. -Marcel Proust

--
: From: A.C. Szul [EMAIL PROTECTED]
: To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
: Subject: Re: [CTRL] Honour Among ...
: Date: Thursday, December 17, 1998 11:13 PM
:
: Now before ya'll jump all over this and say it's a double standard b/c
we're after
: BC for his affairs, hold your horses.
:
: Livingston didn't
:   -lie about it to a federal grand jury;
:   obstruct justice b/c of those affair(s);
:   consciously have others lie for him;
:   and so forth.
:
: Livingston did none of that. And Livingston ain't the POTUS either. The
POTUS is
: held to a higher standard. Higher than anyone else. And he knows it. We
know. And
: the House knows it. That's why BC ought to be impeached tomorrow.
:

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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[CTRL] Not really conspiracy but Ian Smith's quote is very apt

[John Taylor]

 -Caveat Lector-

"What I learnt from British politicians was that diplomacy is just a polite word for 
deceit"



SUNDAY TIMES
December 13 1998

Smith defies Mugabe's land-grabbers
by R W Johnson
Harare

THOUGH 80 next year and a little gaunt, Ian Smith has aged well. He is instantly 
recognisable as the man who issued Rhodesia's unilateral declaration of independence 
(UDI) in 1965, a rebellion he finally surrendered in 1980 when one-man, one-vote 
elections brought President Robert Mugabe to power in what is now Zimbabwe.
Today Smith's farm at Shurugwi is on the list of 841 properties that Mugabe has 
designated for state seizure in order, he says, to allow resettlement by landless 
Africans.
"It's got nothing to do with land for the poor," said Smith. "The state's already 
taken over 2m acres of land, but it's not been distributed to the landless. The 
gangsters have got most of it."
By the gangsters, he explains, he means the government and its cronies.
"I can take you out and show you 20 farms within a 40-mile radius of Harare that were 
once productive, flourishing enterprises, homes where people brought up their children 
and provided employment for many hundreds. Mugabe pushed those people off their land 
and today it's just sterile," he said.
What Smith says is true enough. The head of the army, General Rex Nhongo, who as a 
guerrilla led the first attack on a white farm, is a member of the Zanu politburo. 
Despite his claimed socialist views, he has Zimbabwe's biggest land holding, with 17 
farms. Joshua Nkomo, the vice-president, has interests in 16 farms. Abandoned 
farmhouses around Harare have been looted and the termites are now at work - a sad 
scene of devastation.
What will Smith do? "I got their letter. I told them I wasn't interested. The 
agreement was that they wouldn't take over family farms or highly developed ones and 
mine is both those things," he said.
"Janet [my wife] and I have farmed there for 50 years and we've invested millions in 
it. We're not going to be pushed off. I'll go to the appeal court and with so many 
cases pending it'll take them 10 years to hear them all. I don't expect to be around 
by then anyway. Meanwhile, I'm not budging. My children are here and so are my 
grandchildren. I'm not going anywhere."
Is he not afraid that the government will single him out for exemplary treatment? The 
telephone is tapped, of course, Smith says.
"Janet and I have been arrested three times and they've confiscated my firearms and 
papers. But I just ignored them, and when they realised they were getting nowhere they 
stopped. I've always spoken my mind and I always will," he said.
In Mugabe's first year in power, Smith helped him. "We got on like a house on fire. I 
was very impressed. But then he started all this nonsense about wanting a one-party 
state, and I told him I'd have to criticise him publicly for that. He hasn't spoken to 
me once in the 17 years since then."
Does he not feel partly responsible for the mess now? Was it not the long guerrilla 
war following UDI that produced Mugabe? Rubbish, Smith says, the fault lay with the 
British politicians who sold the country down the river.
"Rab Butler promised us independence but refused to write it down, saying it was 
unnecessary because 'we were all part of the family'," said Smith.
" The most two-faced of the lot was that Lord Carrington fellow. The Tories would put 
their arm around you and say, 'You're one of us', and then betray you. What I learnt 
from British politicians was that diplomacy is just a polite word for deceit."
Many Zimbabweans are horrified at the scale of their country's deterioration. 
Inflation is 45%, unemployment 50%, the currency has collapsed, no investment is 
coming in and as the economy spirals downwards, Mugabe simply tries to blame it all on 
the whites.
Does Smith realise that many South Africans look at Zimbabwe, their northern 
neighbour, and worry that Thabo Mbeki, their next president, could follow the Mugabe 
model?
Smith will have none of this. He has the greatest admiration for Nelson Mandela and 
Mbeki, he says. They are not gangsters and they know much better than to kill the 
goose that lays the golden eggs.
"White South Africans have to face up to the bad things they did. It will take time to 
get apartheid out of that system. You've got to allow for that, but South Africa is 
the hope of Africa and I have confidence in it," he said.
Smith is not without hope for Zimbabwe. "The most hopeful thing is that their own 
people are fed up with them now," he said, pointing to recent riots over food and fuel 
price rises. More and more black people are complaining to him about how their 
children go to bed hungry at night.
The denouement of the Zanu party leadership is becoming clear. Mugabe has sent 6,000 
troops to war in the Congo without even asking parliament. The country cannot afford 
the war and most believe that the troops are there to protect the financial interests 
of 

Re: [CTRL] A Kinder, Gentler Lynch Mob

[William Hugh Tunstall]

 -Caveat Lector-

sorry for the delay in the response.  so "the states" decided that certain
human beings could be defined as property.  This doesn't bother you, even
just a tad bit?
MJ, the problem is you do not have a keen sense of irony. They speak in
terms of "liberty," yet they own human beings.  They revere "property,"
yet they seize the property of the English sovereign.

Have you ever been to Monticello?  a beautiful place.  and the same man
who wrote so elegantly and beautifully about the rights of man could walk
outside his door and behold the shanties of his black slaves  Are you
familiar with the story of Sally Hemmings?

On Fri, 18 Dec 1998, M. A. Johnson wrote:

  -Caveat Lector-

 William Hugh Tunstall wrote:
 I respectfully disagree with your idea that the nation was
 founded upon LIBERTY.first disagreement: Liberty for
 whom?  White males? Blacks? Women? Native Americans?

 MJ:
 That of course was left up to the STATES to decide, though they
 were instructed regarding the MODEL for government in Article 4,
 section 4.

 Regard$,
 --MJ

 In the end more than they wanted freedom, they wanted security.
 When the Athenians finally wanted not to give to society but for
 society to give to them, when the freedom they wished for was
 freedom from responsibility, then Athens ceased to be free.
 -- Edward Gibbon (1737-1794)

 DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
 ==
 CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
 screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
 and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
 frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
 spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
 gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
 be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
 nazi's need not apply.

 Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

 
 To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
 SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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 SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Om


DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
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Re: [CTRL] Perjury

[Alamaine Ratliff]

 -Caveat Lector-

Did anyone notice that the "civil rights" settlement was gained once the
Nose job had healed?


AER

The only real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes
but in having new eyes. -Marcel Proust

--
: From: Gerald Harp [EMAIL PROTECTED]
: To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
: Subject: Re: [CTRL] Perjury
: Date: Thursday, December 17, 1998 8:48 PM
:
:  -Caveat Lector-
:
: In a message dated 12/17/98 7:09:46 PM Eastern Standard Time,
: [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
:
: 
:   I don't care if she pranced into the Oval Office stark naked and threw
:   herself on him
:
: Isn't it a little overboard to believe that every consensual illicit
affair
: between adults is a case of sexual harassment?
:
: DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
: ==
: CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting
propagandic
: screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid
matters
: and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and
outright
: frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor
effects
: spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
: gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to
readers;
: be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
: nazi's need not apply.
:
: Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.
:
: 
: To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
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:
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: Om

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
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Re: [CTRL] !!! NEWS FLASH !!!

[Alamaine Ratliff]

 -Caveat Lector-

Commander in Chief (CINC), Arkansas National Guard (Air and Army); plus
they have an active C-130 base in Little Rock and used to have something at
Blytheville (Eaker?) ...


AER

The only real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes
but in having new eyes. -Marcel Proust

--
: From: KA [EMAIL PROTECTED]
: To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
: Subject: Re: [CTRL] !!! NEWS FLASH !!!
: Date: Thursday, December 17, 1998 6:38 PM
:
:
: "Trent 'draft dodger' Lott"?
:
: Perhaps you can elucidate on CLINTON's military experience for us?

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Om

[CTRL] Iraqiana: 12-18

[Alamaine Ratliff]

 -Caveat Lector-

From wsws.org



WSWS : News  Analysis : Middle East : Iraq

UNSCOM aided Pentagon targeting

Controversy mounts over role of UN inspectors in Iraq

By Martin McLaughlin
18 December 1998

The role of the United Nations Special Commission (UNSCOM) in Iraq has come
under public attack, with charges that the UN weapons inspectors
deliberately provoked a confrontation with Iraqi officials to provide the
Clinton administration with a pretext for launching its air war.

Russian officials at the UN Security Council denounced UNSCOM chief
inspector Richard Butler, saying that the crisis "was created artificially
as a result of irresponsible acts" by Butler. Russian Foreign Minister Igor
Ivanov demanded that Butler resign, charging that he "bore personal
responsibility for this turn of events."

Both UN and US officials have confirmed the extraordinary degree of
collaboration between UNSCOM and the Pentagon and CIA. Secretary of Defense
William Cohen indicated that US officials had been kept informed of UNSCOM
activities minute-by-minute during the month between the last previous
confrontation with Iraq, which ended November 15, and the launching of
Wednesday's air strikes.

While President Clinton claimed that Butler's report on UNSCOM's inspection
activities during the past month, officially delivered to the UN Security
Council on Tuesday, was the trigger for the air raids, both UN and Pentagon
officials said that the US government actually participated in the drafting
of the document, essentially writing its own pretext for war.

The actual record of UNSCOM activities shows virtually complete cooperation
by Iraq with even the most provocative demands of the UN inspectors. UNSCOM
inspectors carried out 299 visits to previously inspected sites and 128
visits to new sites during the period from November 15 to December 14. Of
those 427 visits, there were a total of 5 in which they claim to have
encountered "obstacles" from Iraq.

These five incidents, the supposed cause for the massive US air strikes,
include one instance where UN inspectors were kept waiting for 45 minutes,
another where Iraqi officials sought to limit the number of inspectors to
four, and two more where entry was denied at locations where the entire
work force had gone home because it was Friday, a day of rest in many
Moslem countries.

In their attempts to deflect criticism that Clinton launched the air
strikes to divert public attention from the impeachment drive in
Washington, US government spokesmen have revealed that the war against Iraq
was being planned down to the last detail for at least a month.

From the time that Clinton called off air raids November 15, with US B-52
bombers actually in the air and headed for Baghdad, the Pentagon planners
had targeted the week beginning December 14 as the next possible window of
opportunity for air strikes, because the new moon provides the best
conditions for nighttime air raids.

The "routine" recycling of US military forces, allowing those stationed in
the Persian Gulf for the past six months to return home for the holidays,
meant that during the week before Christmas there would be two aircraft
carriers in the region, one arriving and one preparing to leave, thus
doubling the available forces. Similarly, two groups of B-52 bombers are
now at the US base on Diego Garcia island, in the Indian Ocean, from which
they have launched devastating cruise missile attacks.

There is no doubt that the actions of the UNSCOM inspectors, as well as the
timing of Butler's report to the Security Council, were just as carefully
planned as the movement of ships and planes. According to General Henry
Shelton, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, since Butler's report was
due to be delivered December 15--a fact known well in advance--December 16
was always the prime target day for US air strikes.

UNSCOM not only cooperated in providing the political pretext for the
attacks, the UN inspectors served as virtual bomb spotters for the
Pentagon. A series of reports in the American press provides
extraordinarily blunt confirmation of the intelligence gathering role of
the supposedly neutral and "professional" agency.

The Los Angeles Times wrote December 17, "The Pentagon has been
accumulating information since the Gulf War that it could use for such an
assault. It has a pile of information from the work of the United Nations
Special Commission." The Washington Post, in its front-page account of the
preparation of the air strikes, wrote, "U.S. planners benefited immensely
from seven years of intelligence gathered by UN weapons inspectors."

The Wall Street Journal spelled out the UN role in the most detail,
writing: "American military planners know a lot more about Iraq than they
did in January 1991. Back then, the targeting followed just six months of
hurried work by military-intelligence specialists, much of it guesswork. By
contrast, the campaign that began yesterday draws on seven years of study,

Re: [CTRL] Honour Among ...

[Barb Witt]

 -Caveat Lector-


At 10:00 PM 12/17/98 +, you wrote:
 -Caveat Lector-

On 17 Dec 98 , Alamaine wrote:

  -Caveat Lector-

 From
http://www.rollcall.com

 Livingston Confesses Affairs

 By Jim VandeHei

 House Speaker Bob Livingston (R-La.) tonight plans to disclose
to the
 Republican Conference that he has had sexual affairs in his past
and will
 offer to resign his post, according to GOP sources.

And I say that before they hold Clinton over the spit, let 
every
single on of those legislators who has had an extramarital
affair
step downand let's see who's left.

I think the scene might look like one of those lottery
commercials.
You know--the one where everyone races out of the concert hall.


sno0wl

No intellectually honest person believes that Clinton's plight is simply
due to philandering. As has been stated innumerable
times, no one, conservative, liberal or in between cares if Clinton
engages in extramarital sex an infinite number of times with countless
persons. 

Your attitude regarding Clinton - blind faith, unthinking
loyalty, absurd denial in the face of facts admitted by Clinton himself
- is quintessential fundamentalist/cult thinking. Does
endorsing Clinton's politics and embracing his political vision really
require that you defend EVERYTHING he does, no matter how
illegal??? 

As far as Livingston, or any of the other philanderers/crooks in office,
they too can screw their brains out, they just cannot lie about it before
a trial court and a grand jury. 

The he did it too! argument is reminiscent of grade school
where young children attempt to avoid punishment by deflecting the
attention to someone else (i.e., snitching). Or even junior high
when everyone does it! is the preferred rationale for base
behavior. 

Barb

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting
propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid
matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and
outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor
effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said,
CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to
readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial
and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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email:
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DECLARATION & DISCLAIMER
ÝÝÝCTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

o subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
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[CTRL] Britania: Haves and Not Haves

[Alamaine Ratliff]

 -Caveat Lector-

From wsws.org



WSWS : News  Analysis : Europe : Britain

Labour's reform of the House of Lords

A travesty of democracy

By the Editorial Board
18 December 1998

Anyone concerned with democratic principles must view the existence of the
British House of Lords as an affront. This unelected second chamber, which
dates back to feudal times, consists mainly of hereditary peers. Its
abolition has long been regarded as an essential component of any struggle
for a more just, egalitarian society.

Yet last month Prime Minister Tony Blair negotiated a secret deal with the
then Tory leader in the Lords, Viscount Robert Cranborne, that will
preserve a large hereditary component within Britain's government into the
next Millenium. This allows 91 hereditary peers--one-tenth of the total
number of peers--to retain voting and speaking rights during the first
phase of the chamber's long-awaited reform, with another 16 to remain as
officials alongside the existing Life Peers. According to the present
proposals, Blair--who as prime minister has the power to appoint Life
Peers--will then make 50 such appointments to bring Labour's numbers in the
Lords into line with the Tories.

Labour's "challenge" to the hereditary principle is so farcical that it not
only won the overwhelming support of the Lords, but of the monarch herself.
Blair has been in secret discussions with the Crown for months and promised
Her Majesty that the measures would have no impact on her own considerable
privileges and role as head of state.

The immediate outcome of this subterfuge is the creation of a largely
appointed second chamber, whose composition will be determined by political
patronage.

Constitutional changes were a major part of Labour's 1997 election
manifesto. Two factors motivated this commitment. It enabled Labour to
posture as a "radical" alternative to the Tories, despite its appropriation
of much of the latter's social and economic policies. Blair claimed that
his constitutional measures would extend democracy to "the people" and
ensure that the Tory party could never again dominate British government
for so long.

This met up with widespread, though politically inchoate, demands for
change by working people at the time of the last general election. Almost
two decades of job losses and attacks on welfare provisions produced a
degree of social inequality not witnessed this century. Increasingly,
Parliament and its second chamber were seen as a Tory institution in league
with big business against ordinary people.

Labour's constitutional reforms, however, were never aimed at righting this
"democratic deficit". They articulate the strident demands for change from
within sections of the bourgeoisie itself.

Over the course of the last two decades a new layer of the "super-rich" has
emerged, whose fortunes have been accrued through investment on the global
markets, in the new hi-tech industries, or by cashing in on the speculative
boom and the Tory government's privatisation programme in the 1980s.

This development has altered the composition of the British establishment.
Although the hereditary peers represent an aristocratic elite who still
possesses large fortunes, they no longer constitute the most influential
sections of the bourgeoisie. In 1989 the Sunday Times began to compile a
"Rich List" of the top 200 wealthy in the UK, each requiring at least £30
million to qualify for entry. At that time, inherited wealth accounted for
57 percent of this total. By 1998 the list was enlarged to the cover top
1,000 with the entry qualification lowered to £20 million. Inherited wealth
had dwindled to just 30.7 percent.

This year the Sunday Times noted: "When the first Rich List was compiled in
1989, Gordon Crawford was a 33-year-old computer specialist working to
establish London Bridge software, his two-year-old business, in the City.
Last year he floated the company at £47m and kept a stake worth £35m. By
the time of our valuations in January this year, his stake was worth £89m.
At the end of March, beyond our valuation date, his stake had risen to just
under £170m. Thus, in a little over 11 weeks, helped by the bull market, he
added £81m to his paper fortune, or about £1m a day."

Britain's new millionaires and billionaires were intensely dissatisfied
with many aspects of the Tory government's policy, in particular its
divided and incoherent stance on European Monetary Union (EMU). Moreover,
they felt that the existing constitutional set-up restricted their ability
to exercise a political influence in keeping with their economic weight.

Faced with the collapse of the Tory party, these layers looked to the
Labour Party to articulate their interests. Blair reoriented Labour towards
securing a new social base in sections of the middle class who had suffered
in the latter part of Conservative rule, and won the elections as a result
of capturing the marginal seats in so-called "Middle England". He denounced
the class 

Re: [CTRL] Honour Among ...

[William Hugh Tunstall]

 -Caveat Lector-

MJ
Sorry for placing you in a box.  I'm glad that you are appreciative of the
need for government.  As a strict Constitutionalist (I'm making an
assumption that you consider yourself as one...), you favor a small
government, I presume.  At least, one that does not abrogate to itself any
rights that are not delegated to it.  That is an attractive idea... and I
won't belabor this point..but I think that you must take into
consideration the changed nature of American social, economic, political,
cultural realities... We (as a nation) have moved from being thirteen
states to a global empire (superpower) of today.  Since I assume that you
are a student of history, I think a comparison with Greece and Rome is in
order.. Clearly, we are in the "empire" phase, wouldn't you agree?
Whether you or I like this...is somewhat irrelevant.  If we could turn
back the clock to the eighteenth centuryor perhaps, the early
nineteenth centurywe would find the US of A being quite different in
terms of its demographics, degree of industrialization, extent of
commercial development.. The need for laws, social cooperation, social
cohesiveness was minimalwouldn't you agree?  But now look at the
country!  It is a very very different place, isn't it?  We have gone the
way of empirewestward expansion...seizing more land, placing more
individuals under the power of our government.  Do I approve?  Well, what
is the typical fate of empires? But, on the other hand, if we had not
expanded, there are arguments to be made that we would still be under
British rule.  At least, so goes the argument for the westward expansion..
And if we are to speak in terms of property and libertyof course, our
national government legally (via a series of treaties) seized enormous
chunks of territory in order to expand  So, expansion is very much
part of the American temperament..  We went through a period in our
national history when we wanted our "lebensraum"  But as we expanded
and became a global empire, new realities have come into play.  Hence the
government must deal with problems the original government never faced..


On Fri, 18 Dec 1998, M. A. Johnson wrote:

  -Caveat Lector-

 Mr. Tunstall,

 With all due respect ... I think you have me confused with
 a Republican -- who in general are merely a little to the
 'right' of the Democrats who are 'well to the left'.  *I*
 am just to the left of Anarchy realizing that government
 is needed to avoid endless gang warfare -- prefering a
 simple standard found within the Document that dissolved
 the government bonds within this country and formed the
 philosophy by which our Constitution was drafted.

 If you would like to posit a response to my post rather than
 putting me in a box which is more easily dismissed -- at least
 by association, I am all ears.

 Regard$,
 Michael


 What's *just* has been debated for centuries but let me offer
 you my definition of social justice: I keep what I earn and you
 keep what you earn. Do you disagree? Well then tell me how much
 of what I earn *belongs* to you -- and why?   --Walter Williams


 William Hugh Tunstall wrote:
 
   -Caveat Lector-
 
  MJ-
 
  I guess you're not up on your Clinton trivia.  The Republican Party's
  campaign to subvert two national elections began eight years ago...
  Starting with Larry Nichols/Rush Limbaugh...and other honchos in the
  Republican party who used talk radio to do character assassinations of
  President Clinton...  Usually, these dirty tricks campaign involved
  drumming up one phony allegation after another and serving it up for the
  ditto heads. Clinton had Vince Foster murdered; Clinton operated a
  satanic kiddie porno ring at the Governor's School in Little Rock; Clinton
  ran drugs out of Mena, Arkansas;... one allegation after another...
 
  Your brethren on the far right decided that they could bring him down by
  destroying his character.  and of course, it didn't work very well,
  MJ.  He was reelectedand to the horror of your compatriots, the public
  really weren't interested in what the far right was serving up.  That is
  why Newt was asked to step down..

 DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
 ==
 CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
 screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
 and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
 frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
 spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
 gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
 be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
 nazi's need not apply.

 Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

 
 To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
 

Re: [CTRL] Honour Among ...

[Barb Witt]

 -Caveat Lector-

At 12:13 AM 12/18/98 -0500, you wrote:
 -Caveat Lector-

The private lives of our reps ought to remain as such.

Papers like Roll Call and dirt mags like Hustler, both allegedly involved
in the
Livingston expose, apparently have nothing better to do but go on WH tips and
reveal crap no one out here really cares about. Yuck!

Tonite, Drudge reports that the WH knew about the Livingston affairs.
Three words,
folks: 900 FBI files.

Does anyone really care whether a guy, who's been married for over 30
years, with
a couple kids, strays? Naw, I sure don't. And I would say the same thing
if he was
a Dem!

Now before ya'll jump all over this and say it's a double standard b/c
we're after
BC for his affairs, hold your horses.

Livingston didn't
  -lie about it to a federal grand jury;
  obstruct justice b/c of those affair(s);
  consciously have others lie for him;
  and so forth.

Livingston did none of that. And Livingston ain't the POTUS either. The
POTUS is
held to a higher standard. Higher than anyone else. And he knows it. We
know. And
the House knows it. That's why BC ought to be impeached tomorrow.


Perfectly stated!

Barb


Sno0wl wrote:

  -Caveat Lector-

 On 17 Dec 98 , Alamaine wrote:

   -Caveat Lector-
 
  From http://www.rollcall.com
 
  Livingston Confesses Affairs
 
  By Jim VandeHei
 
  House Speaker Bob Livingston (R-La.) tonight plans to disclose to the
  Republican Conference that he has had sexual affairs in his past and will
  offer to resign his post, according to GOP sources.

 And I say that before they hold Clinton over the spit, let every
 single on of those legislators who has had an extramarital affair
 step downand let's see who's left.

 I think the scene might look like one of those lottery commercials.
 You know--the one where everyone races out of the concert hall.

 sno0wl

-snip
Regards,
-A
http://www.erols.com/mack97
"The sharpest tool in the shed." -- anonymous

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting
propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and
outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to
readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Om


DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
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Re: [CTRL] Perjury

[Barb Witt]

 -Caveat Lector-

Are you off your meds again, Chris??

Barb

At 04:18 PM 12/17/98 -0800, you wrote:
 -Caveat Lector-

[EMAIL PROTECTED],Internet writes:
Perhaps *you* should take your own advice.


i will take my own advice. you seem to be the penultimate narcissist, no
one can touch you. it would be adding hominem to suggest that the real red
herring is the one in your underpants so i won't, much.

you will let me know if you have any more advice for me, won't you?

hahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

chris

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting
propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and
outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to
readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
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DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
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Re: [CTRL] Fwd: 'Tis the Season to Be Homeless

[William Hugh Tunstall]

 -Caveat Lector-

Thanks for the post, Roads.



On Thu, 17 Dec 1998 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:




DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
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[CTRL] Brits and Americans: Stone Age Fools and Murderers

[flw]

This document contains frames, which cannot be edited. The original document 
is attached.
Title: The Times 




	

	
		
		

	

	



  
THE TIMES INTERNET EDITION

Your current browser will not allow you to navigate around our complete site, but we have also 
produced a text-only version of the day's edition which you can use. Click 
here to enter the text-only version

To navigate the full site with frames and tables please download the latest version of
 Netscape Navigator or Microsoft Internet Explorer.

Re: [CTRL] A Kinder, Gentler Lynch Mob

[KA]

 -Caveat Lector-

On Thu, 17 Dec 1998, William Hugh Tunstall wrote:
I respectfully disagree with your idea that the nation was founded upon
LIBERTY.first disagreement: Liberty for whom?  White males? Blacks?
Women? Native Americans?

It WAS founded on liberty, albeit a flawed one...

But what other country in 1776 (or 1783) gave social and political
liberty to blacks, women, or native populations?

At least the founding fathers gave us a document whereby we could
peacefully and legally alter the government via the amendment process, so
that we COULD at a later date include these populations in the
electorate...

And they gave us a document that spells out the peaceful and legal
process whereby the electorate (thru their elected representatives) are
able to remove officials in public office who are guilty of misconduct in
office, including the President...


June

 !  _  _  _  _  _  _` __  _ _  _  |_ . _  _  _  |
   -~*~-  _/_)(/_(_|/_)(_)| )/_)  (_|| (/_(/_ |  || )(_|/_) o
/!\_| _|
   /%;@\
  o/@,%\o
  /%;`@,\
 o/@'%',\o
 '^^^M^^^`

www.xs4all.nl/~klr

*---*
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Re: [CTRL] Honour Among ...

[KA]

 -Caveat Lector-

On Thu, 17 Dec 1998, Sno0wl wrote:
And I say that before they hold Clinton over the spit, let every
single on of those legislators who has had an extramarital affair
step downand let's see who's left.

Did any of those legislators perjure themselves regarding the affair?

Did they have an affair with an employee while undergoing a sexual
harassment suit by another employee?

You see Marilyn (and KNOW very well, altho you refuse to admit it), it
has NOTHING to do with sex, within or without the boundaries of the
marriage contract...

Clinton is being impeached for PERJURY, and OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE...

Altho WAR CRIMINAL should now be added to the list...

So it is irrelevant if Livingston's had an affair in his own past...it is
irrelevant if EVERYONE in the House of Representatives has had an
extramarital affair, since the impeachment ISN'T ABOUT SEX...


June

 !  _  _  _  _  _  _` __  _ _  _  |_ . _  _  _  |
   -~*~-  _/_)(/_(_|/_)(_)| )/_)  (_|| (/_(/_ |  || )(_|/_) o
/!\_| _|
   /%;@\
  o/@,%\o
  /%;`@,\
 o/@'%',\o
 '^^^M^^^`

www.xs4all.nl/~klr

*---*
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screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
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spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
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Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Re: [CTRL] Perjury

[KA]

 -Caveat Lector-

On Thu, 17 Dec 1998, Sno0wl wrote:
I take it you favor a strict caste system. Would you say that "The
Nanny" portrays a criminal situation?

Potentially.

Are you saying your parents situation equates to the Clinton/Lewinsky
matter?  Did your Mom lap dance with a cigar while your father kept an
important business meeting waiting as he watched your Mom's performance?

What sort of performance reviews did your Mom get from your Dad while she
was dating him?  How did her coworkers feel about it, if they were passed
over for promotion, or at the very least got lesser performance reviews
than your Mom, solely due to your mother enjoying a cozy relationship
with your eventual Dad?

Once again, you know very well what the difference is, but refuse to
recognize it, or are deliberately obfuscating matters...


June

 !  _  _  _  _  _  _` __  _ _  _  |_ . _  _  _  |
   -~*~-  _/_)(/_(_|/_)(_)| )/_)  (_|| (/_(/_ |  || )(_|/_) o
/!\_| _|
   /%;@\
  o/@,%\o
  /%;`@,\
 o/@'%',\o
 '^^^M^^^`

www.xs4all.nl/~klr

*---*
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screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
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Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Re: [CTRL] Perjury

[KA]

 -Caveat Lector-

On Thu, 17 Dec 1998, Gerald Harp wrote:
Isn't it a little overboard to believe that every consensual illicit affair
between adults is a case of sexual harassment?

Ask the other people in the office who are passed over for promotion,
people who have the experience and qualifications for the job, while the
young chippy who lapdances for the boss gets the promotion...

Or the coworkers who are expected to be at work on time, not come back
late from lunch, and at least leave work on time, if not put in overtime,
while the babe who's blowing the boss gets away with coming in late,
taking long lunches, leaving work early, taking excessive time off, etc.
etc.


June

 !  _  _  _  _  _  _` __  _ _  _  |_ . _  _  _  |
   -~*~-  _/_)(/_(_|/_)(_)| )/_)  (_|| (/_(/_ |  || )(_|/_) o
/!\_| _|
   /%;@\
  o/@,%\o
  /%;`@,\
 o/@'%',\o
 '^^^M^^^`

www.xs4all.nl/~klr

*---*
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 It is UNLAWFUL to send unsolicited commercial email to this email
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==
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and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
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Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Om

Re: [CTRL] A Kinder, Gentler Lynch Mob

[BStokes45]

 -Caveat Lector-

trea*son (noun)

[Middle English tresoun, from Old French traison, from Latin tradition-,
traditio active of handing over, from tradere to hand over, betray -- more at
TRAITOR]

First appeared 13th Century

 1 : the betrayal of a trust : TREACHERY

 2 : the offense of attempting by overt acts to overthrow the government of
the state to which the offender owes allegiance or to kill or personally
injure the sovereign or the sovereign's family

 I included this definition so there would be no misunderstanding of what
treason is.  In the United States we have no King or Queen although many
believe all citizens are sovereign.  My take on this is that a traitor is
someone who, by whatever means would overthrow our government and/or the
Constitution (rules for our government) or injure Americans by his acts or
deeds.

 Rather than reword and repost several articles and take up a lot of my
time Just follow the link below and read my posts on the CTRL archives.
If you count each action or inaction of President Clinton it adds up to
much more than twenty counts and has nothing to do with  MonicaGate which only
serves to divert attention from the real reasons President Clinton should be
impeached.


A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/scripts/wa.exe?A1=ind9811bL=ctrlD=0H=0
O=AT=1#6"CTRL archives -- November 1998, week 2/A

Mr. Turnstall wrote:
The Family Leave Act was an excellent idea.  Also, the Clinton
administration attempt to get a national health insurance program going.
We're the only industrialized nation without a national health insurance
program for its citizens.. Those businesses which do provide coverage for
their employees have to pick up the tab for the businesses which
don't...look at the fast food service industry...and the retail sector.

But, of course, that idea was squelched by the usual special interests who
control our political process..

 Here you are stating that he didn't get his programs passed by enacting
them into law... he failed.  While we may be the only industrialized nation
without a national health plan We are also the only industrialized nation
that hasn't succumbed entirely to socialism.  I lived in Europe for five years
and if you talk to the people in England they will tell you that it isn't all
they thought it would be.  Look at London newspapers and you will find the
truth about socialized medicine, about people who die waiting in line for an
organ transplant or who become severely disabled because their illness or
injury was not an emergency (mostly due to infection).

Mr Turnstall wrote:
But perhaps President Clinton's greatest contribution during the
past eight years has been his willingness to insure that some of the more
draconian social measures of the Republican party were not signed into
law.
His policies have been moderate, for the most part...  certainly, not
liberal by any stretch of the imagination.  But perhaps his greatest
contribution has been just being theregiving the lunatic fringe and
Nazis on the Far Right someone to hate.

 I wish you would have stated some of these "draconian social measures" so
I would know exactly what you are talking about.  "Lunatic fringe" what about
him selling/giving technology to the Chinese... missles, telecommunications,
super computers, encryption technology?  Nazi, Far Right... China calls itself
Communist which you seem to agree with (Communist/Socialist seem the same to
me) kills their own people who want freedom... remember the Square in 1989?
Or, what about the law that says a family may only have one child.  The
Chinese are not our buddies.  Ever read the Communist Manifesto... they want
to take over the world, that means the US also.

Seems to me President Clinton has no defense, no measureable "good deeds" that
anyone can enumerate.

Regards,
Bob Stokes

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==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
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be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

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Om

[CTRL] sweden and ww2

[eleonora.natanzon]

 -Caveat Lector-

I know this is a long shot, but does anyone have some information
or theorys about Sweden during the ww2.

daniel n.

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==
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and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Re: [CTRL] sweden and ww2

[Yardbird]

 -Caveat Lector-

It was a hotbed of espionage and certain elements were sympathetic to the
Nazis; viz. big business, aristocratic/upper class elitists. I believe
though that cells of the Norwegian and Finnish resistance often hid just
over the border with the help of the rural population. Sweden actively
traded with Germany, the Enskilda Bank and SKF had a virtual monopoly on
ball bearing production and when the Allies tried to pressure Sweden into
curtailing shipments to Germany they threatened to end shipments to
Britain and the USA in retaliation. As far as I can tell the Swedes
basically tried to play both sides for profit like the Swiss.

Jamieson

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==
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screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
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Re: [CTRL] !!! NEWS FLASH !!!

[KA]

 -Caveat Lector-

On Fri, 18 Dec 1998, Alamaine Ratliff wrote:
Commander in Chief (CINC), Arkansas National Guard (Air and Army); plus
they have an active C-130 base in Little Rock and used to have something at
Blytheville (Eaker?) ...

What actual military grade did Clinton achieve during the Vietnam War?

You accuse Trent Lott of being a draft dodger, but I don't seem to
remember Clinton being drafted, either...

Serving as CIC as part of one's elected office doesn't count...spell out
for us just when Clinton himself was drafted, what military grade he
achieved, and where he was stationed...


June

 !  _  _  _  _  _  _` __  _ _  _  |_ . _  _  _  |
   -~*~-  _/_)(/_(_|/_)(_)| )/_)  (_|| (/_(/_ |  || )(_|/_) o
/!\_| _|
   /%;@\
  o/@,%\o
  /%;`@,\
 o/@'%',\o
 '^^^M^^^`

www.xs4all.nl/~klr

*---*
revcoal AT connix DOT com
*---*
 It is UNLAWFUL to send unsolicited commercial email to this email
 address per United States Code Title 47 Sec. 227.  I assess a fee of
 $500.00 US currency for reading and deleting such unsolicited commercial
 email.  Sending such email to this address denotes acceptance of these
 terms.  My posting messages to Usenet neither grants consent to receive
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 email.
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DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
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screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Om

Re: [CTRL] Honour Among ...

[Linda Minor]

 -Caveat Lector-

William Hugh Tunstall wrote:

I guess you're not up on your Clinton trivia.  The Republican Party's
campaign to subvert two national elections began eight years ago...
Starting with Larry Nichols/Rush Limbaugh...and other honchos in the
Republican party who used talk radio to do character assassinations of
President Clinton...  Usually, these dirty tricks campaign involved
drumming up one phony allegation after another and serving it up for the
ditto heads. Clinton had Vince Foster murdered; Clinton operated a
satanic kiddie porno ring at the Governor's School in Little Rock; Clinton
ran drugs out of Mena, Arkansas;... one allegation after another...

Your brethren on the far right decided that they could bring him down by
destroying his character.  and of course, it didn't work very well,
MJ.  He was reelectedand to the horror of your compatriots, the public
really weren't interested in what the far right was serving up.  That is
why Newt was asked to step down..

+


Thanks for your posts.  What some people with tunnel-vision or blinders on
this list can't seem to comprehend is what my favorite teachers in
undergraduate school always called, laughingly, "the Big Picture."  This is
why Hitler was able to control the German people so easily.  You can take a
good idea (like preventing sexual harrassment in the business world), then
get a law passed.  If you can't control the president any other way, you
select someone to set him up (like Monica, with her sexually obsessive
background and ties to wealthy families like Peter Straus), then get her a
job as an unpaid intern.   She flirts, smiles, wiggles, and does all the
things Bill is known to respond to.  When he repeatedly says no to her, she
suddenly is befriended by someone with a long background of "intelligence"
connections who starts warning her about the need to have evidence to
protect herself.  That's when Starr's friends, associates and former
partners in various jobs he's held can be seen to be manipulating Lucianne
Goldberg and Linda Tripp to send Monica back to make more enticements.  At
the same time they were bribing Paula Jones and actually putting up the
money to keep her lawsuit going alleging harrassment, when her reputation in
sexual matters was equally as seedy as Monica's.  But it was a legal
technicality, and that's all they had to hang their hat on.

Anyone who refuses to see that this was a set up is no different than the
people who followed Hitler blindly into the holocaust.  It's easy to create
a law and then focus on its technicalities.  That's why we no longer have
justice under the American system of jurisprudence.  The big picture of the
Constitution, due process, fundamental fairness have been removed.  All for
the sake of--what?  What motivates these technocrats?  It certainly isn't
morality.  Ask yourself who these people really are; what is their
background?  Do some research and use your brain.

That's what I like about your posts, William.  They show you think and ask
questions.  Thanks.

Linda Minor

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Om

Re: [CTRL] Honour Among ...

[KA]

 -Caveat Lector-

On Fri, 18 Dec 1998, Linda Minor wrote:
get a law passed.  If you can't control the president any other way, you
select someone to set him up (like Monica, with her sexually obsessive
background and ties to wealthy families like Peter Straus), then get her a
job as an unpaid intern.   She flirts, smiles, wiggles, and does all the
things Bill is known to respond to.  When he repeatedly says no to her, she

It was fine up until the last bit (altho I'd argue whether Lewinsky was
part of a deliberate setup)...

But to suggest that Clinton 'repeatedly' said no to Lewinsky is the most
hilarious thing I've heard from you Clintonistas...especially since both
he and Lewinsky verify the fact that it didn't take much more than
Lewinsky batting her eyelashes to get Clinton to go down on her...

There is NOTHING in Clinton's own decidedly flawed testimony where he
implies that Lewinsky had to work very hard to get him interested in an
illicit relationship with her...


Goldberg and Linda Tripp to send Monica back to make more enticements.  At
the same time they were bribing Paula Jones and actually putting up the
money to keep her lawsuit going alleging harrassment, when her reputation in
sexual matters was equally as seedy as Monica's.

Again, I'd argue that either Ms. Jones or Ms. Lewinsky had 'seedy'
reputations (except amongst you Clintonistas, who endeavor at all costs
to besmirch their reputations -- a real shame in the case of Ms.
Lewinsky, who seems to actually be in love with Bubba)...

But since even prostitutes can be victims of rape, your argument is
meaningless anyways...


Anyone who refuses to see that this was a set up is no different than the
people who followed Hitler blindly into the holocaust.

No, it's you Clintonistas who are slavishly devoted to a charismatic
leader who is leading you ultimately to doom and destruction...if not
quite on the level of Hitler, then definitely in a class like Jim Jones,
or Heaven's Gate...


It's easy to create
a law and then focus on its technicalities.  That's why we no longer have
justice under the American system of jurisprudence.  The big picture of the
Constitution, due process, fundamental fairness have been removed.

Uh, let's see...when two original articles of the Constitution are
followed strictly to the letter, you interpret that as being unfair?

I suppose throwing the Constitution out the window, and doing something
unconstitutional, like censure, WOULD be considered fair by you?

Or perhaps not doing anything at all, allowing Clinton to get away with
perjury, while any regular citizen committing perjury would find the full
weight of the jurisprudence system crashing down on their heads -- such a
double standard would be 'fair' to you?


 June

 !  _  _  _  _  _  _` __  _ _  _  |_ . _  _  _  |
   -~*~-  _/_)(/_(_|/_)(_)| )/_)  (_|| (/_(/_ |  || )(_|/_) o
/!\_| _|
   /%;@\
  o/@,%\o
  /%;`@,\
 o/@'%',\o
 '^^^M^^^`

www.xs4all.nl/~klr

*---*
revcoal AT connix DOT com
*---*
 It is UNLAWFUL to send unsolicited commercial email to this email
 address per United States Code Title 47 Sec. 227.  I assess a fee of
 $500.00 US currency for reading and deleting such unsolicited commercial
 email.  Sending such email to this address denotes acceptance of these
 terms.  My posting messages to Usenet neither grants consent to receive
 unsolicited commercial email nor is intended to solicit commercial
 email.
**

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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[CTRL] Fwd: Han Young arrests!

[PRUDYL]

Anyone else out there interested in this matter?  Prudy



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UNIONISTS ARRESTED IN TIJUANA!
posted December 17, 1998

Tijuana, Mexico: Enrique Hernandez Felix, General Secretary of the  6th of
October Union of Workers in Industry  Commerce (the union representing the
Han Young workers) and Jose Angel Penaflor, the lawyer for the union, were
arrested this morning. This is part of an ongoing pattern of repression and
violations of human rights and Mexican labor law by officials of the Mexican
government. We hope to be able to post more information - as well as an
action request - soon, when we can consult further with the Support
Committee for Maquiladora Workers.

Meanwhile, local activists are urged to continue their leafleting activities
at Hyundai Motors dealerships. (Han Young produces chassis for another
division of Hyundai, which assembles tractor trailers.)

Background Information

Located in Tijuana, Mexico, the Han Young factory welds chassis for nearby
Hyundai operations, where the chassis are assembled into tractor trailers
("semi's"). Since June of 1997, workers at Han Young have been struggling to
win representation for an independent union and to get management to bargain
a new contract. Core issues are substandard wages (many skilled welders
receive the equivalent of only $4 US / $5.70 a day Canadian for a 10- to
11-hour shift) and life-threatening health and safety issues (totally
inadequate safety equipment, lack of ventilation for toxic gases, having to
stand in puddles of water while using high voltage equipment with frayed
cables, decrepit cranes which drop their loads without warning or swing
wildly out of control).

A clear majority of the workers has voted three times to be represented by
an independent union. The workers have stood firm in the face of armed
thugs, bribes, firings, disinformation campaigns and a host of illegal
actions by management and government officials in Mexico. The workers won
certification of their union in January after a 26-day hunger strike, but
management has refused to negotiate a contract with the independent October
6 union. Since May 22 of this year, when the previous contract expired,
virtually the entire regular workforce at Han Young has been on strike.

Throughout this struggle, international pressure has remained strong. The
two essential elements of international solidarity are: political pressure
on the Mexican federal government to enforce its own labor law and economic
pressure on Hyundai to use its considerable leverage with Han Young, which
produces only for Hyundai.

Re: [CTRL] A Kinder, Gentler Lynch Mob

[PRUDYL]

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 12/17/98 6:39:05 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


o The Legislation is UNCONSTITUTIONAL
o This is one of the government's direct causes for the
  increase in temporary agencies
o This 'act' has caused MORE abuses
o It is not government's place to circumvent a contract 

The temp agencies have been around a lot longer than the family leave act, and
unless the Supreme Court (you know, your friend Rehnquist) has declared it
unconstitutional, I guess it may not be.  Everything causes abuses.  The
Government's place is to insure that workers are treated fairly, and are paid
the minimum wage.  If you want to know how easy it is to live on that, read
the article in January's "Harper Magazine."  It's called "Nickel-and-Dimed"
and it's by Barbara
Ehrenreich.  If that doesn't keep you in school, nothing will.  Prudy

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
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screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Om

Re: [CTRL] Perjury

[PRUDYL]

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 12/17/98 7:11:39 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Sure it is, if the person asking is in a position of authority. 

Man, when I think of the millions I could have made--the executives I could
have brought down.  There it was--the opportunity for power and money--even
fame--and I missed the boat entirely.   Prudy

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
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screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Om

Re: [CTRL] Ru Mills' Dream

[PRUDYL]

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 12/17/98 7:19:24 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 I sincerely doubt this happened, as the President of the United States
 can not be subjected to criminal proceedings until he is out of office... 

Absolutely right.  That's why Ken Starr and his jury are sitting on the fence
outside the White House just waiting for the opportunity.  The rest of the
Republicans are just impatient.  Prudy

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
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screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Om

Re: [CTRL] !!! NEWS FLASH !!!

[PRUDYL]

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 12/17/98 7:38:19 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Perhaps you can elucidate on CLINTON's military experience for us? 

Please forgive us, June, most of us still cling to that moment when Christ
said, "Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone."  It's not that
Clinton had military experience, it's the vast number of members of Congress
who managed quite neatly not to go out to defend their country or whatever who
keep railing at Clinton as a draftdodger.  My husband did 28 years in the US
Military.  He was in the Korean war and the whatever you want to call it in
Vietnam.  He was a professional military man, and it was his business to go
where ever his organization sent him.  He is also not stupid, and he knew what
the Vietnam thing was.  Did he do his duty.  Of course.  Does he blame Clinton
for managing not to have to go there.  No he does not.  In fact, we might call
a lot of folks who actually served in the military, draft dodgers.  I worked
with a ton of guys who enlisted into the Air Force to keep from being drafted
into the army.  The time was longer, but the time actually under fire was
shorter.  They were pretty up front about it.   Prudy

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Om

Re: [CTRL] Fwd: 'Tis the Season to Be Homeless

[PRUDYL]

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 12/17/98 9:03:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:

 The U.S. Conference of Mayors reported Wednesday that 15 percent more
homeless
 families requested shelter this year than last. The mayors cited cuts in
 public assistance and the lack of affordable housing as two reasons for the
 increase. 

Well, in the Middle East, they sit outside the mosque and public buidings
wrapped in rags and beg.  No reason why they can't do that here.  That's how
the third world handles poverty.  That keeps taxes lower.  Prudy

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Om

Re: [CTRL] Honour Among ...

[PRUDYL]

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 12/17/98 7:06:35 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Sources say Livingston was called recently and told a story about his past
 could be coming out soon. 

Yeah, well if some kind soul had called Clinton and told him about Linda baby,
the tapes and the dress Monica was keeping for posterity, he probably would
have told "all" as well.Prudy

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Om

[CTRL] Another Great Drug War Victory!

[flw]

 -Caveat Lector-

Congratulations Fellow Americans! You have just won another great victory in
the  Drug War.

Good Idea: Why doesn't the DEA plant some marijuana in Saddam's house.
No doubt a SWAT team will kick in his door and shoot the dirty pot smoking
S.O.B.
flw




. Patient Who Was Denied Liver Transplant For Using Medical
   Marijuana Dies

- Dale Gieringer, California NORML

California NORML is sorry to note the death of Ed Plotner,
who was removed from a liver transplant list for using
medical marijuana.  Plotner, who suffered multiple hepatitis
infections, had used marijuana to combat severe appetite and
weight loss.  He was accepted but then dropped by a liver
transplant program which demanded that he pass a drug test
for marijuana.

Unlike other drugs, including cocaine, heroin, and alcohol,
marijuana is not a risk factor for hepatitis.  Even though
many patients find medical marijuana is useful -- not only
for weight gain, but also for helping to avoid drugs that
are toxic to the liver -- it is banned in most transplant
programs.

California NORML attorney Eric Shevin attempted to get
Plotner restored to the transplant list, but his efforts
proved too late. After being kept off the list a year, Ed
expired on November 21.

"Ed was a tragic victim of drug testing abuse," says
California NORML coordinator Dale Gieringer.  "He was killed
by the anti-marijuana bigotry and ignorance of medical
'experts' who should have known better."

Ironically, Plotner, who was from Redding, California, had
sought treatment in San Francisco, where voters
overwhelmingly approved medical marijuana by 80%-20%.
(Dale Gieringer can be reached at [EMAIL PROTECTED]
California NORML is online at http://www.norml.org/canorml/.

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Om

Re: [CTRL] Desert Fox

[flw]

 -Caveat Lector-

How ironic and revealing that the term "Desert Fox" was the code name for
Gen. Edwin Rommel, a famous Nazi general who fought the Nazi desert
campaign.
flw

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Om

Re: [CTRL] A Kinder, Gentler Lynch Mob

[M. A. Johnson]

 -Caveat Lector-

MJ:
  o The Legislation is UNCONSTITUTIONAL
  o This is one of the government's direct causes for the
  increase in temporary agencies
  o This 'act' has caused MORE abuses
  o It is not government's place to circumvent a contract 

Prudy:
The temp agencies have been around a lot longer than the family leave act,
MJ:
Note the above states 'increase' not 'creation'.


Prudy:
   and unless the Supreme Court (you know, your friend Rehnquist) has
   declared it unconstitutional, I guess it may not be.
MJ:
Can you cite the relevant Constitutional article, section and clause or
amendment?

You do realize you are not only providing the Supreme Court with powers they
do not possess, but you are implying we have 'Robed Masters'.


Prudy:
 The Government's place is to insure that workers are treated fairly, and
 are paid the minimum wage.
MJ:
Who defines 'treated fairly'?

Should the Government not ALSO look out for 'employers' ... afterall they
are individual citizens as well.  Would a better standard not be for Government
to protect ALL (regardless of 'group' one desires to place them) from FORCE
and FRAUD?


You agree to perform Task A in exchange for Wage X for me.

   o So long as our agreement is 'honored' by both of us, why would
  Government need to involve themselves?
   o Where does a 'minimum wage' come into play? -- afterall we
   both agreed to the terms of our exchange

Can you cite Constitutional article, section and clause for either a 'minimum
wage' or 'fair worker treatment' (whatever that one might mean)?


Regard$,
--MJ

Congress cannot, under pretext of executing delegated power, pass
laws for the accomplishment of objects not entrusted to the Federal
Government. -- Linder v. US, 268 US 5, 17 (1925).

No doctrine can be sound that releases a legislature from the
control of a constitution. ...although always liable to be
altered by the people who formed it, [it] is not alterable
by any other authority; certainly not by those chosen by the
people to carry it into effect. This is so vital a principle,
and has been so justly the pride of our popular government,
that a denial of it cannot possibly last long or spread far.
-- James Madison (1825)

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Om

[CTRL] Fwd: Richard Mellon Scaife Speaks

[RoadsEnd]

Subject: Richard Mellon Scaife Speaks!
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (David Goldman)
Date: Thu, Dec 17, 1998 16:16 EST
Message-id: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

The Right's answer to the Hollywood Money Bags...

   Scaife Accuses Clintons of Cover-up

   Thursday, December 17, 1998; 2:30 a.m. EST

   WASHINGTON (AP) -- Conservative billionaire Richard
   Mellon Scaife says President Clinton is ``an
   embarrassment'' but denies that Scaife money helps support
   a right-wing conspiracy out to hurt the president.

   ``I just want the truth to come out about Whitewater,'' the
   reclusive Pittsburgh philanthropist told George magazine
   editor John F. Kennedy Jr. in a rare interview.

   ``I think there's been a massive cover-up about what Bill
   Clinton's administration has been doing, and what he was
   doing when he was governor of Arkansas,'' said Scaife,
   who funds many anti-Clinton groups.

   Saying Clinton ``can order people done away with at his
   will,'' Scaife suggested that the president might be linked to
   the deaths of dozens of administration officials and
   associates, including White House aide Vince Foster,
   whose death was determined to be a suicide by
   investigators, and former Commerce Secretary Ron Brown,
   who died in a plane crash.

   The 66-year-old heir to the Mellon oil and banking fortune,
   estimated at over $1 billion, also had harsh words for
   Independent Counsel Kenneth Starr, whose investigation
   led to the Monica Lewinsky probe and the specter of
   impeachment now threatening Clinton's presidency.

   ``Four years and $40 million later, we haven't gotten
   anything,'' Scaife said. ``Maybe Ken Starr is a mole working
   for the Democrats.''

   Scaife controls several foundations that have given millions
   of dollars to organizations run by critics of Clinton. That
   money included $1.7 million for a project at the
   conservative American Spectator magazine to dig up
   information about Clinton's role in the Whitewater real
   estate deal.

   A federal grand jury is probing whether some of the money
   was improperly diverted to Whitewater figure David Hale,
   an Arkansas businessman and convicted felon who testified
   against Clinton in the Starr investigation. Hale has denied
   receiving any money.

   Scaife was reportedly called as a witness in the grand jury
   probe.

   Scaife's money also helped fund a chair at Pepperdine
   University that was to go to Starr. The prosecutor later
   turned the job down.

   Earlier this year Hillary Rodham Clinton said there was a
   ``vast right-wing conspiracy'' out to destroy her husband.
   The comment was considered by some to be a veiled
   reference to a cadre of Scaife-funded anti-Clinton groups.

   ``If there is one, I don't know of it,'' Scaife said when
asked
   if such a conspiracy exists.

   He said he doesn't hate Clinton and gives money to support
   groups ``presenting ideas that most colleges and universities
   and television don't promote.''

  © Copyright 1998 The Associated Press

[CTRL] Fwd: The '60s -- but Upside-Down

[RoadsEnd]

But what tie was he wearing?

by columnist Rob Morse, San Francisco Examiner, Dec 17, 1998

 Madness. Complete madness. It was schizophrenic,
split-brain, manic-depressive cognitive dissonance in the
streets.
 San Francisco lives in its own world, but on Wednesday the
town's insanity was just a locked-ward version of the national
nervous breakdown.
 Three hours after President Clinton bombed Iraq, previously
scheduled pro- and anti-impeachment demonstrations turned into a
duel between conservative doves and liberal hawks. They were
birds of strange feathers, anyway.
 On one side of the police fence were hundreds of
conservative demonstrators chanting for the impeachment of Bill
Clinton and arguing against the bombing of a Third World country.
 On the other side of the fence were somewhat dispirited
liberal demonstrators chanting against impeachment and defending
our attack on the Third World country. Some of them, anyway.
 Cindy Jacobson, who came from Palo Alto to be on the
pro-Clinton side of the fence, had to laugh after hearing
conservatives condemn Clinton's bombing of Iraq and liberals
defend it.
 "It was like a complete flip-flop from the '60s years,"
she said.
 On his way to the anti-Clinton side of the fence, James
Topscott of San Francisco said he ran into a large anti-war
demonstration at Fifth and Market.
 "At least they're consistent,"  he said.  "They don't care
who the president is."
 Those demonstrators carried signs like  "Impeach the system
that kills Iraqi children,"  and as always they marched on the
San Francisco newspapers, the West Coast branch of the Pentagon,
with secret cruise missile launchers on the roof.
 Just kidding, folks. Just kidding. It's paranoid enough
around here.
 Another '60s flip-flop: Many of the people on the
pro-Clinton side of the fence accused the anti-Clinton
conservatives of being outside agitators, of having been bused
in.
 "Go back to Hooterville,"  yelled Clinton supporter Mark
McClendon of San Francisco.
 KSFO talk show host Melanie Morgan, who had a bullhorn and
was leading the chants (including  "Pray for Chelsea" ) said she
managed to call out the demonstrators on 24 hours notice, using
her talk show and the Internet.
 "We've brought out 5,000 demonstrators to other
demonstrations,"  she said,  "but the media never noticed."
 Well, it took a Christmas bombing by Clinton. Nixon once
gave us a Christmas like that, too.
 Across the fence, a fence with no fence-sitters, the Glide
Church choir sang  "Love Train,"  and the Rev. Cecil Williams and
the Rev. Amos Brown gave anti-impeachment speeches.
 Mayor Brown and his arch-enemy, talk-show host Bernie Ward,
even sat on the same dais. Is that  "dais,"  or  "daze,"  which
is what I'm in?
 Other '60s flip-flops: The conservatives had better signs,
even one saying  "Give impeachment a chance," held by a guy who
said,  "Hey, make love, not war."
 I don't know what his definition of making love was, but
presumably it was within sanctified marriages.
 More '60s flip-flops: The anti-Clinton conservatives had
better and stronger chants, borrowing the left-wing's "Hey, hey,
ho, ho"  model.
 "Hey, hey, ho, ho, the dirty liar's got to go."
 It took a while for the liberals to respond with their own
lame hey-hey chants, and metrically clumsy ones like  "Hey, hey,
ho, ho, the Republican Congress has got to go."
 The best hey-hey-ers probably were back at Fifth and
Market protesting both Clinton and his attack on Iraq.
 Whatever happened to  "Hidey, hidey, hidey ho"  anyway?
 All this was a fitting end to one of the wildest days in
American history. The day before Congress was scheduled to begin
impeachment hearings, Clinton launched an attack against Saddam
Hussein's weapons of mass destruction and his Republican Guard.
 He scored a direct hit on the American Republican Guard,
gaining high poll ratings, making Sen. Trent Lott foam at the
mouth, and perhaps delaying the impeachment hearings until the
next Congress is sworn in.
 The timing was exquisite, with the first cruise missiles
arriving just as people on the East Coast sat down in front of
the national news.
 An hour later, the president went on TV, and then left
Secretary of Defense William Cohen the task of accusing Hussein
of  "denial, delay and obstruction."
 Sound familiar? But Hussein is completely evil. Think Linda
Tripp with anthrax bombs.
 A couple of minutes after Clinton's speech, the ack-ack
started again and CNN cut back to Christiane Amanpour in Baghdad,
just as a bomb went off in a street right in front of the camera.
 "It looks produced,"  said an employee of Nordstrom's Pub,
where I was watching the action with a dozen stupefied waiters
and shoppers.
 I didn't even want to think it. Is the Pentagon using CNN
to aim its missiles?
 I hate to be paranoid here, but everyone's paranoid here.

[CTRL] Fwd: Teleracketeers

[RoadsEnd]

Covert Operation Nets Telemarketers

WASHINGTON (AP) -- A 2 1/2-year federal and state investigation in which
undercover agents taped telephone solicitations has produced criminal charges
against nearly 1,000 telemarketers, Attorney General Janet Reno announced
Thursday.

More than 40 telemarketers were arrested and more than 20 sites searched by
agents on Thursday alone, Reno told a news conference.

Operation Double Barrel was ``the most extensive operation ever directed at
dishonest telemarketing,'' Reno said.

FBI agents, retired agents and senior citizens recruited by the American
Association of Retired Persons posed as previous victims, who frequently are
contacted again by telemarketers in ``reload'' scams. They recorded the calls
for evidence.

``Now each time a telemarketer picks up the phone, they are taking a risk.
When telemarketers call, we have often answered,'' Reno said. ``But we cannot
become complacent. We've got to see what they get into next.''

Since Double Barrel began in July 1996, 795 people have been charged with
federal crimes, including wire and mail fraud, money laundering and
racketeering, and 194 others have been charged with state crimes in 14 states.
An additional 394 people have been sued in civil actions.

Federal convictions have resulted in some prison sentences as long as 14 and
20 years.

The investigation was joined by 20 U.S. attorney's offices, 21 FBI field
offices, 35 state attorneys general, the Postal Inspection Service, the
Federal Trade Commission, the Securities and Exchange Commission and the
Commodity Futures Trading Commission.

``Our reach is now national in scope,'' said Georgia Attorney General Thurbert
Baker. ``But to say we've cured the problem would be a misstatement.''

``I believe we are having a significant impact,'' said deputy assistant FBI
director Ted Jackson, noting that the probe reached into 38 states.

The operation grew out of an earlier, smaller effort, Operation Senior
Sentinel, which ended in 1995. Senior Sentinel was the first undercover effort
directed at telemarketing fraud. It investigated 180 telemarketing ``boiler
rooms'' concentrated in Buffalo, N.Y., Chattanooga, Tenn., and Las Vegas and
convicted 598 individuals.

Jonathan Rusch, Justice Department special counsel for fraud prevention,
explained that ``those who were not arrested then moved into smaller scale,
more mobile operations, like investment scams and `recovery rooms'.''

`Recovery room' operations tell victims of previous scams they can obtain
refunds if they pay a fee. Often these crooks pose as FBI, IRS or Customs
agents.

Reno described one in which a telemarketer called a previous victim pretending
to be an FBI agent trying to catch the earlier telemarketer. The counterfeit
agent mailed a phony court order to the victim purporting to authorize a
wiretap of the victim's telephone.

Next, the crook called back using a different voice and promised to recover
the victim's loss for a 10 percent fee, Reno said.

In a third call, the crook again posed as an FBI agent and urged the victim to
send the money so the telemarketer could be caught red-handed.

``Anyone who calls you, tells you they're from the FBI, and asks you to pay a
fee so they can get your money back, is lying,'' Reno said. ``No federal or
state law enforcement agency will ever charge fraud victims a dime when they
try to get money back for victims.''

AARP president-elect Tess Canja said 56 percent of telemarketing victims are
elderly, often active, outgoing and well-educated.

``They are very trusting,'' Canja said. Her group trains people to spot
illegitimate pitches and hang up.

The state attorneys general were from: Arkansas, Arizona, Connecticut,
Delaware, Florida, Georgia, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kentucky, Louisiana,
Maine, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Missouri, Nevada, New
Jersey, New Mexico, New York, North Carolina, Ohio, Oklahoma, Oregon,
Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Vermont, Virginia,
Washington, West Virginia and Wisconsin.

Re: [CTRL] sweden and ww2

[RoadsEnd]

 -Caveat Lector-

What in particular are you looking for, political, industrial, espionage? Are
you looking for nazi links? Scandanavia was considered by some nazis as a
'purer' aryans.

Om
K
-

In a message dated 12/18/98 4:00:12 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

I know this is a long shot, but does anyone have some information

or theorys about Sweden during the ww2.



daniel n.
-
Aloha, He'Ping,
Om, Shalom, Salaam.
Em Hotep, Peace Be,
Omnia Bona Bonis,
All My Relations.
Adieu, Adios, Aloha.
Amen.
Roads End
Kris

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
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screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Om

[CTRL] BRAZIL AGAIN APPROACHES THE BRINK

[Carl Amedio]

 -Caveat Lector-

BRAZIL AGAIN APPROACHES THE BRINK

Only a month ago, it appeared that Brazil might solve its
economic problems and avoid a currency collapse which would
deeply affect U.S. banks and bring on an Asian-style debacle in
the rest of Latin America.

But the country's politicians are balking at vital reforms and,
indeed, appear oblivious to the potential chaos their inaction
invites, financial analysts contend.

   o   A bill limiting social security benefits to former
   bureaucrats has been voted down in the county's Congress
   by members of the government's own coalition.

   o   Efforts to introduce key legislation in Congress have been
   opposed by the president of the Senate -- on the grounds
   that he was not properly informed.

   o   Brazilian policy makers are in denial about the country's
   internal debt problem -- claiming that the highly
   patriotic Brazilians will hold on to government-issued
   securities come what may, rather than rushing to bail
   themselves out in an orgy of self-interest.

Brazil's economic salvation lies in embracing three policies,
analysts say.

   o   The government must adopt new expenditure cuts.

   o   It should get serious about its privatization program --
   including divestment of such sacred cows as Brazil's
   National Development Bank and Petrobras, the state-owned
   oil company.

   o   Finally, it should adopt a currency board to dispel the
   notion of devaluation.

Economists say that with these three measures in place, interest
rates -- now as high as 35 percent -- would rapidly decline,
growth would resume and Brazil would be able to move toward
heretofore elusive prosperity.

Source: Sebastian Edwards (UCLA's Anderson Graduate School of
Management), "Brazilia Is Playing Chicken With Investors," Wall
Street Journal, December 18, 1998.

For more on Currency Issues
http://www.ncpa.org/pi/internat/intdex2.html

For more on South America
http://www.ncpa.org/pi/internat/intdex9.html

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
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Om

Re: [CTRL] Honour Among ...

[RoadsEnd]

 -Caveat Lector-

May I had an amen.  Personally I don't really care for all the  banter, but it
does serve a purpose and lets us see all the silly, explorations that go on
and how 'history' is written, myopically.

Dogmatic actions begat by 'thought' 'boxes' prepared well in advance.

Life is but a stage and we are actors, well, don't forget about the prop guy,
the lighting folks, the stage hands, etc; the scenery, the author and the
stage and theatre itself.

Om
k


In a message dated 12/18/98 4:50:28 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Thanks for your posts.  What some people with tunnel-vision or blinders on

this list can't seem to comprehend is what my favorite teachers in

undergraduate school always called, laughingly, "the Big Picture."  This is

why Hitler was able to control the German people so easily.  You can take a

good idea (like preventing sexual harrassment in the business world), then

get a law passed.  If you can't control the president any other way, you

select someone to set him up (like Monica, with her sexually obsessive

background and ties to wealthy families like Peter Straus), then get her a

job as an unpaid intern.   She flirts, smiles, wiggles, and does all the

things Bill is known to respond to.  When he repeatedly says no to her, she

suddenly is befriended by someone with a long background of "intelligence"

connections who starts warning her about the need to have evidence to

protect herself.  That's when Starr's friends, associates and former

partners in various jobs he's held can be seen to be manipulating Lucianne

Goldberg and Linda Tripp to send Monica back to make more enticements.  At

the same time they were bribing Paula Jones and actually putting up the

money to keep her lawsuit going alleging harrassment, when her reputation in

sexual matters was equally as seedy as Monica's.  But it was a legal

technicality, and that's all they had to hang their hat on.



Anyone who refuses to see that this was a set up is no different than the

people who followed Hitler blindly into the holocaust.  It's easy to create

a law and then focus on its technicalities.  That's why we no longer have

justice under the American system of jurisprudence.  The big picture of the

Constitution, due process, fundamental fairness have been removed.  All for

the sake of--what?  What motivates these technocrats?  It certainly isn't

morality.  Ask yourself who these people really are; what is their

background?  Do some research and use your brain.



That's what I like about your posts, William.  They show you think and ask

questions.  Thanks.



Linda Minor


DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
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Om

Re: [CTRL] Honour Among ...

[RoadsEnd]

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 12/18/98 5:07:16 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Or perhaps not doing anything at all, allowing Clinton to get away with
perjury, while any regular citizen committing perjury would find the full
weight of the jurisprudence system crashing down on their heads -- such a
double standard would be 'fair' to you?

Personally, I think the president should resign.  Perjury is not an
impeachable offense. Even if it is perjury. That is up to a criminal court He
may be indicted in a criminal indictment but he may not be brought to a
criminal trial untill after he leaves office. There are many other 'offenses'
that Clinton could be impeached on but those involve both political parties
and the cryptocracy.

The whole show orchestrated with polarizing affectations.

You may wake-up to the truth now or in twenty years when the princples tell
the truth.

Isn't it time to stop being lead by our noses and stand-up like human beings
and think on our feet instead of reactive Nuero-Linguistic-Programming?

MHO.

Om
K

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
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Om

Re: [CTRL] Some Thought on Iraq

[Hilary Thomas]

 -Caveat Lector-

-Original Message-
From: Gerald Harp [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thursday, December 17, 1998 1:34 PM
Subject: Re: [CTRL] Some Thought on Iraq


 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 12/17/98 1:38:19 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 The peoples of Iraq face the same dilemma that Americans do - removing a
  unfit leader (some believe his is unfit) from office.  Each of our
peoples
  are presented with problems in doing just that.  Though considering the
  growing number of corpses surrounding the Clinton Administration I
suspect
  that these problems that one could encounter are very similar indeed.

It's really inconvenient when the facts get in the way, as Reagan would
say.

HmmI'm not sure what you are referring to in my post here as you
later suggest that the corpse concept is an urban legend.  Please clarify.

Most Americans are not confronted with the problem of removing their
democratically elected leader.  Most Americans are confronted with a
radical
right-wing cabal and a compliant press who are attempting to remove the
President on a trivial legalism.

Indeed.  It is a dilemma.  Does one boot out a President on a "trivial
legalism" because the supposed greater offenses have not been proven?  Is
this the only way the House and Senate can get rid of him without dragging
out all the dirty laundry which would implicate numerous people or is all of
this "dirty laundry" a bunch of conspiracy nonsense?

Re: trivial legalism.  Most people would lie about a sexually indiscretion.
It doesn't make it right but, it is understandable.  However, I will
maintain my position that Clinton is the President of the United States and
therefore must abide by a higher standard of conduct for in not doing so he
directly affects the lives of countless millions of people adversely.  It
may not seem fair but, it is necessary IMHO and it's a position that I
continue to maintain.  If Clinton does not want to abide by these strict
"rules" then he needs to step down from office.

As for the corpses, i suggest that you visit the urban legends site.

I have.  I have also done considerable research in the area.

Thanks for the feedback.

Hilary

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting
propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid
matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and
outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor
effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to
readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Om


Together We Create Heaven on Earth
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

=

Come join exploration - a discussion list dedicated to keeping up-to-date on
new technologies, advancements in medicine, environmental concerns,
'conspiracy theories' and, of course, UFO stuff.  Discussion is encouraged.
Bashing and soapboxing will get you bounced off the list.

To subscribe to exploration go to:

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

List Moderator:  Hilary A. Thomas

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Om

Re: [CTRL] Desert Fox

[RoadsEnd]

 -Caveat Lector-

Also, fox in general numerological conversion eguals 666.

Om
K

In a message dated 12/18/98 6:58:57 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

How ironic and revealing that the term "Desert Fox" was the code name for

Gen. Edwin Rommel, a famous Nazi general who fought the Nazi desert

campaign.

flw

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
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Om

[CTRL] OEN 12/18/98

[RoadsEnd]

 -Caveat Lector-

from:
http://www.aci.net/kalliste/
A HREF="http://www.aci.net/kalliste/"The Home Page of J. Orlin Grabbe/A
-


Impeachment Bombing

Ex-U.N. Weapons Inspector Says Iraq Crisis Provoked by U.S.

Butler  Clinton co-ordinated to justify bombing

Former chief U.N. weapons inspector Scott Ritter says U.S. officials
prodded inspection teams to return to Iraq last month to provoke a
crisis to justify bombing.
"What [chief U.N. weapons inspector] Richard Butler did last week with
the inspections was a set-up," Ritter told The Post yesterday. "This was
designed to generate a conflict that would justify a bombing."

Ritter said U.S. government sources told him three weeks ago when the
inspections resumed that "the two considerations on the horizon were
Ramadan [the monthlong Muslim holiday beginning this weekend] and
impeachment.

"You have no choice but to interpret this as 'Wag the Dog.' You have no
choice," he said.

"If you start assessing what's happened since November 19 [when
inspectors resumed their work in Iraq], you have to wonder if the U.S.
isn't perverting a good cause."

Ritter's comments - and his reference to the movie about a president who
created a phony war to divert attention from his domestic problems -
came hours before U.S. military forces struck in the Persian Gulf,
destroying suspected biological and chemical weapons sites in Iraq.

In mid-November, U.S. and British forces were on the verge of massive
bombing attacks on Iraq. The attacks were called off at the last minute
after Saddam Hussein reversed Baghdad's Oct. 31 refusal to cooperate
with U.N. weapons inspectors.

After Saddam capitulated, inspectors were rushed back in to resume their
duties.

"UNSCOM [the U.N. Special Commission] knew there were no weapons at the
sites they were sending their inspectors to. We've been doing this for
seven years. We know that when the inspectors leave, Iraq shuffles up
the deck, moves the weapons."

"Why then did the U.S. urge these inspectors to carry out immediate
inspections?"

Ritter assailed Butler's report, released late Tuesday night, that said
Iraq was not complying with the inspections. That report was in contrast
with one released by the International Atomic Energy Agency which said
Iraq was complying.

Ritter insists Butler's report - while necessary - was politically
motivated.

"If you dig around, you'll find out why Richard Butler yesterday ran to
the phone four times. He was talking to his [U.S.] National Security
adviser. They were telling him to sharpen the language in his report to
justify the bombing."

Ritter quit the inspections team in August, saying the Clinton
administration and the United Nations had stymied the efforts of
inspectors to uncover Saddam's weapons of mass destruction.

He said that before he quit, inspectors had acquired detailed
information about where weapons were hidden - but the Iraqis have since
had time to move them and probers will have to begin the process all
over again.

Yesterday, Ritter charged that the only way to achieve the objective of
disarming Iraq is to demand - under threat of a crippling, large-scale
military attack - that they not only turn over their weapons, but detail
for inspectors exactly how and where they diverted the weaponry to avoid
detection.

A limited air attack on Iraq will achieve very little, Ritter said,
though he said it would be in keeping with the Clinton administration's
latest policy of containment with Iraq.

"No inspector should go back until Iraq admits it has lied and details
how they hid their weapons.

"Instead, we send inspectors back in to continue the failed process of
inspections. There are still weapons in Iraq. There's no doubt about
that.

"But we've been doing this since 1991 and its not working."

New York Post, Dec. 17, 1998


Impeachment Bombing

Pentagon Questions Timing of War

Clinton decision not related to noncompliance report

The White House notified the Joint Chiefs of Staff on Sunday that
President Clinton would order air strikes this week, 48 hours before he
saw a United Nations report declaring Iraq in noncompliance with weapons
inspectors, it was learned from authoritative sources last night.
Several Pentagon officials have questioned Mr. Clinton's timing to order
strikes on the eve of the House impeachment debate.

Pentagon sources said National Security Council aides told the Joint
Chiefs to quickly update a bombing plan that was shelved in mid-November
and were told that a strike would be ordered in a matter of days.

Israeli spokesman Aviv Bushinsky said yesterday in Jerusalem that
President Clinton discussed preparations for an attack with Israeli
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu just minutes before Mr. Clinton flew
home from Israel's Ben-Gurion Airport on Tuesday, ending a three-day
peace mission.

White House spokesman Joe Lockhart insisted that Mr. Clinton made the
strike decision 

Re: [CTRL] Desert Fox

[Hilary Thomas]

 -Caveat Lector-

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Friday, December 18, 1998 10:17 AM
Subject: Re: [CTRL] Desert Fox


 -Caveat Lector-

Also, fox in general numerological conversion eguals 666.

Om
K



Kris,

Care to elaborate on this significance this has for you?  Not so much the
666 since that is fairly well understood but the Fox part.  Do you see this
going some where?  Perhaps WWIII?

Hilary

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting
propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid
matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and
outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor
effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to
readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Om


Together We Create Heaven on Earth
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

=

Come join exploration - a discussion list dedicated to keeping up-to-date on
new technologies, advancements in medicine, environmental concerns,
'conspiracy theories' and, of course, UFO stuff.  Discussion is encouraged.
Bashing and soapboxing will get you bounced off the list.

To subscribe to exploration go to:

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

List Moderator:  Hilary A. Thomas

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
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Om

[CTRL] FC: Know Your Customer -- the system behind it all

[Hilary Thomas]

Yikes!  The who's who list covers just about everyone.

Hilary

Together We Create Heaven on Earth
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

=

Come join exploration - a discussion list dedicated to keeping up-to-date on
new technologies, advancements in medicine, environmental concerns,
'conspiracy theories' and, of course, UFO stuff.  Discussion is encouraged.
Bashing and soapboxing will get you bounced off the list.

To subscribe to exploration go to:

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

List Moderator:  Hilary A. Thomas






-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thursday, December 17, 1998 9:54 PM
Subject: [CTRL] Fwd: FC: Know Your Customer -- the system behind it all







My "Banking with Big Brother" article:
  http://www.wired.com/news/news/politics/story/16749.html

This is the existing system that will keep track of "suspicious activities"
under the Know Your Customer proposed regulation. I described it in my
article.
This Department of Justice published this description today.

-Declan


System name:
Suspicious Activity Reporting System (the ``SAR System'').

System location:
The SAR System is housed at the Internal Revenue Service Computing
Center (``DCC'') in Detroit, Michigan and is managed by the Financial
Crimes Enforcement Network (``FinCEN''), 2070 Chain Bridge Road, Suite
200, Vienna, VA 22182, with the assistance of the staff of DCC.

Categories of individuals covered by the system:
The SAR System contains information about: (1) Individuals or
entities that are known perpetrators or suspected perpetrators of a
known or suspected federal criminal violation, or pattern of criminal
violations, committed or attempted against a financial institution, or
participants in a transaction or

[[Page 69745]]

transactions conducted through the financial institution, that has been
reported by the financial institution, either voluntarily or because
such a report is required under the rules of FinCEN, one or more of the
Federal Supervisory Agencies (the Board of Governors of the Federal
Reserve System (``the Board''), the Office of the Comptroller of the
Currency (``OCC''), the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation
(``FDIC''), the Office of Thrift Supervision (``OTS''), and the
National Credit Union Administration (``NCUA'') (collectively, the
``Federal Supervisory Agencies'')), or both. (2) Individuals or
entities that are participants in transactions, conducted or attempted
by, at or through a financial institution, that have been reported
because the institution knows, suspects, or has reason to suspect that:
(a) The transaction involves funds derived from illegal activities, the
transaction is intended or conducted to hide or disguise funds or
assets derived from illegal activities as part of a plan to violate or
evade any law or regulation or to avoid any transaction reporting
requirement under Federal law; (b) the transaction is designed to evade
any regulations promulgated under the Bank Secrecy Act, Pub. L. 91-508,
as amended, codified at 12 U.S.C. 1829b, 12 U.S.C. 1951-1959, and 31
U.S.C. 5311-5330; or (c) the transaction has no business or apparent
lawful purpose or is not the sort in which the particular customer
would normally be expected to engage, and the financial institution
knows of no reasonable explanation for the transaction after examining
the available facts, including the background and possible purpose of
the transaction; (3) Individuals who are directors, officers,
employees, agents, or otherwise affiliated with a financial
institution; (4) Individuals or entities that are actual or potential
victims of a criminal violation or series of violations; (5)
Individuals who are named as possible witnesses in connection with
matters arising from any such report; (6) Individuals or entities named
as preparers of any such report; (7) Individuals or entities named as
persons to be contacted for assistance by government agencies in
connection with any such report; (8) Individuals or entities who have
or might have information about individuals or criminal violations
described above; and (9) Individuals or entities involved in evaluating
or investigating any matters arising from any such report.

Categories of records in the system:
The SAR System contains information reported to FinCEN by financial
institutions on a Suspicious Activity Report (``SAR'') required under
the authority of FinCEN or one or more of the Federal Supervisory
Agencies, or both. SARs contain information about the categories of
persons or entities specified in ``Categories of Individuals Covered by
the System.'' The SAR System may also contain records pertaining to
criminal prosecutions, civil actions, enforcement proceedings, and
investigations resulting from or relating to SARs. Additionally, it
will contain records pertaining to criminal prosecutions, civil
actions, enforcement proceedings, and investigations relating to

Re: [CTRL] Perjury

[Hilary Thomas]

 -Caveat Lector-

-Original Message-
From: Sno0wl [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thursday, December 17, 1998 10:09 PM
Subject: Re: [CTRL] Perjury


-Caveat Lector-

On 17 Dec 98 , KA wrote:

  -Caveat Lector-

 On Thu, 17 Dec 1998 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  sexual harassment IS a crime. 
 
 I don't think asking is a crime?

 Sure it is, if the person asking is in a position of authority.

Gee, June--
My Mom was a pretty young secretary at a fancy celebrity club and my
Dad was an older "celebrity" when they met. Guess my Dad committed a
crimeand here I am!  Always thought there was something fishy
about the whole situation, although, for a time there, my Mom thought
she had gotten a real good deal!

Actually, it was their greatest hope that I would do the same
thing--get a job as a young clerk and marry an important,
wealthy executive. Lots of people did it in the 40s and 50s. Needless
to say, I was a great disappointment.

I take it you favor a strict caste system. Would you say that "The
Nanny" portrays a criminal situation?

sno0wl

snoOwl,

This sounds like a very romantic situation for both of your parents.  One of
the big differences is that your mother was not employed by your father - he
was a client of the club.

Hilary

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting
propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and
outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to
readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

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Come join exploration - a discussion list dedicated to keeping up-to-date on
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DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
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screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

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Om

[CTRL] Fwd: [priory-of-sion] Re: All Those P's

[RoadsEnd]

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Seeker1)

 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 We've been throwing around p1 and p2 as though everybody knows what they
 refer to.  I'm assuming they relate to Priory-1 and Priory-2, but could
 someone explain the difference between the two groups.

 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

According to DM, most major religious monastic or anchoritic organizations
(such as the Dominicans, Franciscans, Cistercians, etc.) have a higher and
lower order.

"P1" is the higher or inner order of the Priory, "P2" is the lower or outer
order. How this lines up with the grade system in HBHG is unclear. I still
don't know whether "P1" has 5, 7, or 9 grades.

DM maintains "P2" is 'split' - the European branch is up to all that
nastiness going on in Italy and elsewhere, his American branch is busy
helping homeless people and doing charitable work. There could possibly be
other "P2's" on other continents, but I doubt it, I can't see much reason
why they'd have branches operating in Africa or Asia.

(Now, watch as soon as I finish saying this, a new African POSer named
"Kumata Grailata" descended from Prester John of Ethiopia pops on the
list.)

(DM's "NWP2" has two tiers itself - the higher order is his International
Gnostic Catholic Church, with 22 degrees, and the lower order is his Sword
 Shield with - hmm - was that seven? )

SM's sources have told her, however, that the chain doesn't stop there -
apparently there is a "P3" through "P7."

If there really are 7 "P's", and each of them has several grades with an
arithmetically progressing membership, then the Priory consists of a
HELLUVA lot of people. But according to Guelfi, it seems like some of the
lower "P's" (like the Dragon Order) belong to orders controlled by Sion who
have no idea they're actually controlled by it. They are in the PoS, in a
sense, without even knowing it! As Robert Anton Wilson once put it,
"Sometimes you don't even know you're in the Illuminati... until it's too
late."

Yours,

Steve Mizrach   [aka Seeker1]
TechnoCulturalist, CyberAnthropologist, HyperMediac, AnthroFuturist
Home Page URL: http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/seeker1/cyberanthro/newhome.html
"Why?  Why not?" -- Timothy Leary's last words












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Re: [CTRL] Desert Fox

[RoadsEnd]

 -Caveat Lector-

just an aside. As to what it means; quien sabe? Sign of the times?

Om
k
In a message dated 12/18/98 9:24:39 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Care to elaborate on this significance this has for you?  Not so much the

666 since that is fairly well understood but the Fox part.

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

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Om

[CTRL] Tenet Healthcare

[Robert Tatman]

 -Caveat Lector-

Does anyone have any information on the background of Tenet Healthcare? They
just recently bought something like half of the hospitals in the Philadelphia
area from Allegheny University. (Allegheny is another story in itself; its top
executives had been raiding endowment funds to pay off heavy debt...just
before they declared bankruptcy!) Some preliminary research shows that Tenet,
and its former incarnation as NME, had run into heavy trouble as a result of
bottom-line marketing; I will admit I haven't gone into this too deeply yet. I
am also curious to know whether there is any connection between Tenet
Healthcare and George Tenet, the Director of Central Intelligence.

Bob

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==
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and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Om

Re: [CTRL] !!! NEWS FLASH !!!

[Gerald Harp]

 -Caveat Lector-

  From: KA [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  : To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  : Subject: Re: [CTRL] !!! NEWS FLASH !!!
  : Date: Thursday, December 17, 1998 6:38 PM
  :
  :
  : "Trent 'draft dodger' Lott"?
  :
  : Perhaps you can elucidate on CLINTON's military experience for us?


The difference between Clinton and guys like Lott, Gingrich, Armey, Gramm et
al is that Clinton was against the Vietnam War because he realized that it was
corrupt and against US interests, even participated in a demonstration against
it.  These other fellow were all for the war.  Armey even said that his draft
dodging was OK since he always spoke out in favor of the war.  Many of these
hawks would say that we must support the war (prolong it) since that would be
in support of our troops.  Does anyone not know how one of our soldiers in
Vietnam would have responded to a sudden cessation of the fighting and going
back home with the war unwon?  I fully respect those draft dodgers who were
motivated by the evil of the war or even simply realized that it did not make
sense.  I do not respect the draft dodging of the war supporters.

(The reaction of Private Ryan was baloney - the reality is that our soldiers
in WWII were never rotated.  If they were front-line troops, they remained in
the thick of it until the war ended, they were injured, or they were killed.
Any one of them would have fell to his knees and after thanking God, would
have eagerly permitted Tom Hanks to escort them to safety.)

Jerry Harp

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
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screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Om

Re: [CTRL] Desert Fox

[Hilary Thomas]

 -Caveat Lector-

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Friday, December 18, 1998 11:09 AM
Subject: Re: [CTRL] Desert Fox


 -Caveat Lector-

just an aside. As to what it means; quien sabe? Sign of the times?

Om
k
In a message dated 12/18/98 9:24:39 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Care to elaborate on this significance this has for you?  Not so much the

666 since that is fairly well understood but the Fox part.

Kris,

You are, of course, being annoyingly vague!  AND to toss out another tease,
"Sign of times?"  Geez, bubba!  :)  I won't push.  I was just curious.

Hilary

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting
propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid
matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and
outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor
effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to
readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Om

Together We Create Heaven on Earth
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

=

Come join exploration - a discussion list dedicated to keeping up-to-date on
new technologies, advancements in medicine, environmental concerns,
'conspiracy theories' and, of course, UFO stuff.  Discussion is encouraged.
Bashing and soapboxing will get you bounced off the list.

To subscribe to exploration go to:

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

List Moderator:  Hilary A. Thomas

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Om

Re: [CTRL] Honour Among ...

[Gerald Harp]

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 12/18/98 2:55:14 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


 As far as Livingston, or any of the other philanderers/crooks in office,
they
 too can screw their brains out, they just cannot lie about it beforea trial
 court and a grand jury.


In any ethics class or discussion, your statement would be an excellent
example of narrow legalism taking the place of objective reality.

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Re: [CTRL] Honour Among ...

[Gerald Harp]

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 12/18/98 6:28:04 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 the impeachment ISN'T ABOUT SEX...

Just keep telling yourself that.

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
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screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Re: [CTRL] Honour Among ...

[E Mael]

 -Caveat Lector-

[EMAIL PROTECTED],Internet writes:
Or perhaps not doing anything at all, allowing Clinton to get away with
perjury, while any regular citizen committing perjury would find the full
weight of the jurisprudence system crashing down on their heads -- such a
double standard would be 'fair' to you?


 June


it is the pervasiveness of alcoholic poisoning in this country that
accounts for the all pervasive symptom that people think that they can
change someone's mind about anything at all. furthermore it is only the
ones who step out from the alcoholic poisoning loop who know that, no
matter what method you may use, there is no way that anyone can change
anyone else's mind about anything.

what do you drink june, and how often?

chris

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
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screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Re: [CTRL] Perjury

[E Mael]

 -Caveat Lector-

[EMAIL PROTECTED],Internet writes:

Or the coworkers who are expected to be at work on time, not come back
late from lunch, and at least leave work on time, if not put in overtime,
while the babe who's blowing the boss gets away with coming in late,
taking long lunches, leaving work early, taking excessive time off, etc.
etc.


June


seems like sour grapes to me june. maybe you ought to get in on some of
the action. sounds like you have been missing out on some benefits. go out
here and get some of yours. it is, after all, the american way.

chris

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Re: [CTRL] Honour Among ...

[E Mael]

 -Caveat Lector-

[EMAIL PROTECTED],Internet writes:
So it is irrelevant if Livingston's had an affair in his own past...it is
irrelevant if EVERYONE in the House of Representatives has had an
extramarital affair, since the impeachment ISN'T ABOUT SEX...


June


you are right june; as everyone knows it is the party, not what was or was
not done. the republicrats are showing the world that they will damned
well get what they want, no matter what the price. something about the
narcissistic delusion that expects imediate gratification and money is no
object. custom made for people born on 2nd and 3rd base, who have not had
enough trouble in their lives and make it their life long business to stir
it up at every opportunity. you support a society of some pretty sick
s.o.b.'s. i think they are commonly referred to as shit disturbers. keep
stirring june, your tempest in a teapot will bring trouble on someone yet.

chris

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
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screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

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Re: [CTRL] The Holocaust[2]Anti-Semite and Jew - An exploration of the etiology of hate

[Jim Condit Jr.]

 -Caveat Lector-

Man, Roads End, quick research. I'm too bogged down right now to analyze in
depth the pscho-babble of the pathetic Jean-Paul Sarte --- but I'll take
this up when I post Fr. Fahey's short, concise clear definition of
"anti-Semitism." Jim Condit Jr.

On Thursday, December 17, 1998 1:00 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] wrote:
  -Caveat Lector-

 In a message dated 12/17/98 7:09:06 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 analysis of the word "anti-Semitism"

 an excerpt from:
 Anti-Semite and Jew - An exploration of the etiology of hate
 Jean-Paul Sarte
 George J Becker(translator)
 Schocken Books(C)1948,1976
 New York, NY
 Paul Morhien(C)1946
 Paris, France
 ISBN 0-8052-1047-4
 --(2)--
 We must not confuse this precedence the anti-Semite enjoys by virtue of
his
 principles with individual merit. The anti-Semite is not too anxious to
 possess individual merit. Merit has to be sought, just like truth; it is
 discovered with difficulty; one must deserve it. Once acquired, it is
 perpetually in question: a false step, an error, and it flies away.
Without
 respite, from the beginning of our lives to the end, we are responsible
for
 what merit we enjoy. Now the anti-Semite flees responsibility as he flees
his
 own consciousness, and choosing for his personality the permanence of
rock, he
 chooses for his morality a scale of petrified values. Whatever he does,
he
 knows that he will remain at the top of the ladder; whatever the Jew
does, he
 will never get any higher than the first rung.

 We begin to perceive the meaning of the anti-Semite's choice of himself.
He
 chooses the irremediable out of fear of being free; he chooses mediocrity
out
 of fear of being alone, and out of pride he makes of this irremediable
 mediocrity a rigid aristocracy. To this end he finds the existence of the
Jew
 absolutely necessary. Otherwise to whom would he be superior? Indeed, it
is
 vis-a-vis the Jew and the Jew alone that the anti-Semite realizes that he
has
 rights. If by some miracle all the Jews were exterminated as he wishes,
he
 would find himself nothing but a concierge or a shopkeeper in a strongly
 hierarchical society in which the quality of "true Frenchman" would be at
a
 low valuation, because everyone would possess it. He would lose his sense
of
 rights over the country because no one would any longer contest them, and
that
 profound equality which brings him close to the nobleman and the man of
wealth
 would disappear all of a sudden, for it is primarily negative. His
 frustrations, which he has attributed to the disloyal competition of the
Jew,
 would have to be imputed to some other cause, lest he be forced to look
within
 himself. He would run the risk of falling into bitterness, into a
melancholy
 hatred of the privileged classes. Thus the anti-Semite is in the unhappy
 position of having a vital need for the very enemy he wishes to destroy.

 The equalitarianism that the anti-Semite seeks with so much ardor has
nothing
 in common with that equality inscribed in the creed of the democracies.
The
 latter is to be realized in a society that is economically hier archical,
and
 is to remain compatible with a diversity of functions. But it is in
protest
 against the hierarchy of
 functions that the anti-Semite asserts the equality of Aryans. He does
not
 understand anything about the division of labor and doesn't care about
it.
 From his
 point of view each citizen can claim the title of Frenchman, not because
he
 co-operates, in his place or in his occupation, with others in the
economic,
 social, and
 cultural life of the nation, but because he has, in the same way as
everybody
 else, an imprescriptible and inborn right to the indivisible totality of
the
 country. Thus the society that the anti-Semite conceives of is a society
of
 juxtaposition one can very well imagine, since his ideal of property is
that
 of real and basic property. Since, in point of fact, anti-Semites are
 numerous, each of them does his part in constituting a community based on
 mechanical solidarity in the heart of organized society.

 The degree of integration of each anti-Semite with this society, as well
as
 the degree of his equality, is fixed by what I shall call the temperature
of
 the community. Proust has shown, for example, how anti-Semitism brought
the
 duke closer to his coachman, how, thanks to their hatred of Dreyfus,
bourgeois
 families forced the doors of the aristocracy. The equalitarian society
that
 the anti-Semite believes in is like that of mobs or those instantaneous
 societies which come into being at a Iynching or during a scandal.
Equality in
 them is the product of the non-differentiation of functions. The social
bond
 is anger; the collectivity has no other goal than to exercise over
certain
 individuals a diffused repressive sanction. Collective impulsions and
stereo
 types are imposed on individuals all the more strongly because none of
them is
 defended by any specialized function. Thus the 

Re: [CTRL] The Holocaust

[Jim Condit Jr.]

 -Caveat Lector-

Right, Jerry, I'm not an anti-semite. Here's a test for you: name some
criticism of anything the dominant Jewish Lobby is doing that could be
criticized without you suspecting the person was an "anti-semite" -- and,
my "uncharacteristic" syntax errors come from not double checking
everything I write because I'm super busy and often writing these in the
middle of the night after I get done a long day's work. But, as Fr. Fahey
says, it has long been a tactic to try to associate criticism of anything
Jewish with a lack of mental balance, as you have once again demonstrated.
Yes, you do need Fr. Fahey to explain to you the difference between
anti-Semitism and necessary criticism of movement's which oppose the order
of the world, and I will be posting his short passage on that soon, as well
as the titles of his books and where to get them. His books are "the"
essential reading for conspiracy researchers, in order to get a balance
between the relationship between high-level plotting (less of a problem)
and the clash of social organisms which have conflicting moral agendas
(much more of the cause of unrest in the world).

Incidentally, war-monger Clinton has already cravenly put more bombs into
Iraq than Bush did according to MSNBC --- this is the first time our
beloved America has attacked another country at length when that country
had not first invaded  or committed aggression against ourselves or someone
else. PROOF that America is now under alien occupation at the Federal
level. And Clinton declared this war WITHOUT Congressional approval. But
I'm sure you couldn't care less about the constitution when it comes to
killing for the New World Order and its "most favored" nation, Israel. Have
fun . . . . . Jim Condit Jr.

On Thursday, December 17, 1998 2:23 PM, Gerald Harp [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
wrote:
  -Caveat Lector-

 In a message dated 12/17/98 10:09:06 AM Eastern Standard Time,
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 
   Incidentally, today's unbelievable, brazen, crass act of war against
Iraq
   by Clinton and the claque of Jews around him (Cohen, Berger, Albright,
   Emanuel, and on and on and on) goes will go along way within six
months to
   have many more Americans using the term ZOG (zionist occupational
   governement) and JOB (Jewish Occupational Government). This attack has
   nothing to do with American interests, as more and more Americans are
   waking up to that simple reality. Jim Condit Jr.

 You're not an anti-Semite?  The dictionaries should show your face in the
 definition space.  Incidentally, i don't need Fr. Fahey to tell me what
anti-
 Semitism is since i have seen it all my life and find it disgusting.
 Your
 uncharacteristic errors in syntax betrays your blind rage.

 President Clinton launched the attack to cripple Saddam's WMD capability.
 Saddam had placed so many restrictions on UNSCOM that UNSCOM left Iraq.
 Therefore, there was no longer any surveillance of Saddam's WMD
development
 status.  However, the final UNSCOM report stated that Iraq was proceeding
as
 fast as it could given the presence of UNSCOM.  Since Iraq could develop
a
 serious arsenal in just a few months, President Clinton had to move
fairly
 fast.  Since it would be awkward to start the bombing during Ramadan, the
JCS
 advised him to act now.  The brouhaha about the timing is just more
Republican
 hysteria.  Anyway, it is not a big deal to put off the impeachment (coup
 d'etat) vote for another few weeks.

 Jerry harp

 DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
 ==
 CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting
propagandic
 screeds are not allowed. Substance-not soapboxing!  These are sordid
matters
 and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and
outright
 frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor
effects
 spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
 gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to
readers;
 be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
 nazi's need not apply.

 Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

 
 To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
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 Om

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
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screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence 

[CTRL] An Interesting Email Thread

[Robert Tatman]

 -Caveat Lector-

This is the substance of an interesting thread that appeared on another
mailing list (headers, etc., have been stripped for space and privacy).
==
original message
Hello,

Does anybody know something about a sociology (communication arts)
department, that is specialized in conspiracy theories.

Thanks Markus

reply #1
Do you know  *any* sociological theory which is not based on conspiracy?
BK

reply #2
what's it to you and why do you need to know?



=
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==
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screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
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Om

Re: [CTRL] A Kinder, Gentler Lynch Mob

[E Mael]

 -Caveat Lector-

[EMAIL PROTECTED],Internet writes:
And they gave us a document that spells out the peaceful and legal
process whereby the electorate (thru their elected representatives) are
able to remove officials in public office who are guilty of misconduct in
office, including the President...


June


by the same measure everyone is guilty. i think that we need to bring the
whole damned system down. why is anyone bothering about the personalities.
most of the presecutors are guiltier than the defendant. let's have some
real justice and no more of this make believe crap you keep harping on.

chris

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
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Om

Re: [CTRL] Honour Among ...

[Stopforth, Jamie]

 -Caveat Lector-

 Oh so it IS about sex after all...  Yeah, the president is getting
impeached because he's a horrible sex toy according to Monica...   Alrighty
then...

 Jamie


 -Original Message-
 From: Gerald Harp [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Friday, December 18, 1998 12:25 PM
 To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  Re: [CTRL] Honour Among ...

  -Caveat Lector-

 In a message dated 12/18/98 6:28:04 AM Eastern Standard Time,
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  the impeachment ISN'T ABOUT SEX...

 Just keep telling yourself that.



DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
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Om

Re: [CTRL] The Holocaust[2]Anti-Semite and Jew - An exploration of the etiology of hate

[RoadsEnd]

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 12/18/98 10:45:21 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Man, Roads End, quick research. I'm too bogged down right now to analyze in

depth the pscho-babble of the pathetic Jean-Paul Sarte --- but I'll take

this up when I post Fr. Fahey's short, concise clear definition of

"anti-Semitism." Jim Condit Jr.

Here is some info on your Fr. Fahey.  Pathetic, I guess, is in the eye of . .
.
-
an excerpt from:
Shrine of the Silver Dollar
John L. Spivak(C)1940
Modern Age Books
New York, NY
-

VII

PHONY PATRIOTS
NAZIS AND COUGHLIN

ON JULY 9, 1938, Vladimir Kositzan, one of the most active Nazi propagandists
in the United States, wrote the following code letter to Ernst Goerner of
Milwaukee, another active Nazi agent: "The seeds are on way to you. More of
the Italian and English available yet. Polish will follow later, from my
Erfurt nursery. I want to get rid of my supplies before my probable
departure."

The "Erfurt nursery" is the press in Erfurt, Germany, where World Service, a
Nazi propaganda organ, is published in various languages for distribution
throughout the world. Nazi ships smuggle this material into the United States
where secret German agents distribute it to groups, organizations and
individual propagandists. The "seeds," of course., were copies of World
Service, printed in the languages Kositzan listed. It was part of Kositzan's
work to keep Goerner supplied with propaganda material and informed of likely
prospects who would help distribute the smuggled literature. Kosit zan was a
sort of wholesaler, while Goerner was one of the numerous agents handling the
retail end.

At the top of his letter to Goerner, Kositzan typed this name and address:
"Miss B. R. Burchett, 3411 Race St., Philadelphia, Pa." and scrawled in
pencil: "Needs material. Mention me. Very active."

July, 1938, was also the period when the Reverend Charles E. Coughlin, who had
already begun disseminating Nazi propaganda issued by the Ministry of
Propaganda in Berlin, launched his extreme anti-Semitic campaign. His efforts
to arouse racial and religious hatred in this country brought immediate
protests, not only from Jews but from high dignitaries of the Catholic church
and prominent Catholic laymen. Several radio stations announced they would not
sell time to the priest unless he submitted his script for advance reading to
see if he was "bearing false witness" as former Governor 'Alfred E. Smith had
publicly charged. When Coughlin would not agree to this "censorship," the
radio stations refused to let him go on the air.

Suddenly groups to defend Coughlin popped up. They called meetings to demand
that he be given his "constitutional rights of free speech." What these groups
were and the leaders' strange tie-ups will be dealt with in this chapter. At
the moment I am interested in Bessie Burchett, formerly head of the department
of foreign languages in the South Philadelphia High School for Girls, the lady
whose name Kositzan had sent to Goerner.

Within a few weeks after the Nazi agent in Milwaukee received Kositzan's
letter, Miss Burchett was on the public platform with Nazi and Silver Shirt
leaders, demanding that Coughlin be returned to the air. Most of her talks,
delivered in an atmosphere of Hitler salutes, were vicious anti-Semitic
diatribes. At no time did she mention how she became involved in Coughlin
defense efforts or that she had received material from Nazi agents.

At about this same period a young man named Edwin Westphall, hungry-looking, a
bit shabby, and down at the heels, 'Managed to eke out an existence by
peddling razor blades to the dinner and theater crowds on Times Square in New
York. Sometimes he made a couple of dollars, but it was hard sledding. Like
most Broadway peddlers, the seedy Mr. Westphall had something quick and alert
about him and he had that gift of gab so necessary if you're going to work the
Broadway population.

Times Square, where Westphall roamed with the coming of night, was being made
a concentration point by distributors of Social Justice. Frequently a Social
Justice peddler and the hawker of razor blades found themselves side by side.
Then one day Westphall disappeared, only to pop up again in the Bronx with new
shoes and new suit, cleanshaven, spick and span--and an authority on the
Constitution and the Bill of Rights. He was indignant about the radio stations
which would not permit Father Coughlin to go on the air. The same glib tongue
that sold razor blades now sold the need of "saving America"--and Coughlin-
through the "Crusaders for Americanism," which was headed by one George A. Van
Nosdall with offices at 126 East 123rd Street, New York City.

From now on we get into a group of closely cooperating men, most of them
native Americans, some of them phonies and others just hopeful of becoming
spies for foreign governments under cover of ultrapatriotic rackets. All of
them, I found, were galvanized into action to defend Coughlin's ("right of
free 

[CTRL] When growth stops.

[nurev]

 -Caveat Lector-

WHEN GROWTH STOPS -- SUSTAINABLE DEVELOPMENT, PT. 6

Here we wrap up our discussion of sustainable development, based
on the excellent book BEYOND GROWTH by Herman Daly.[1]

Sustainable development means, first, setting physical limits on
the "throughput" of the human economy.  Throughput means all the
materials and energy flowing through the economy -- all the
things we make and use, and all the energy required to do so.
Another phrase for "throughput" is "total consumption," which is
total human population multiplied by per-capita consumption.

The total throughput of the human economy must be kept small
enough to avoid exceeding two physical limits of the ecosystem:
its capacity to regenerate itself, and its capacity to absorb
our wastes.  Each year now, scientists report new evidence that
the human economy has exceeded both of these ecosystem limits.

For example, nature creates (regenerates) new topsoil each year,
but in much of the world (particularly in the U.S.) humans are
destroying topsoil faster than nature can create it.[2]  Loss of
topsoil reduces our future farming capacity in a fundamental
way.  Topsoil destroyed today is topsoil taken from our children
and grandchildren.

Pesticides provide an example of humans producing wastes faster
than nature can absorb them.  If nature could absorb pesticide
residues as fast as humans created them, then there would be no
buildup of toxic residues.  But there has been a measurable
buildup of pesticides at the north and south poles, at the
bottom of the deepest oceans, in the drinking water of much of
the midwestern U.S., and in the breast milk of women worldwide.
We have clearly exceeded nature's capacity to absorb pesticide
wastes, thus denying our children their rightful share of
nature's detoxification capacity.

In sum, there really are "limits to growth" and we have already
exceeded some of those limits.  This means that, at some point,
continued economic growth (growth of throughout) will create
bads faster than it creates goods (an economist would say
"marginal costs will exceed marginal benefits").  Daly (pg. 40)
argues, for example, that the U.S. chemical industry may have
already passed the point at which its toxic discharges are
costing society more than the benefits provided by its products.
If this were the case, then society would receive net benefits
by shrinking the chemical industry instead of promoting its
growth.

Unfortunately, we have no way of measuring whether our economy
has passed the point at which costs have begun to exceed
benefits because, in our national accounting system (in which we
measure "gross domestic product"), we count all production of
goods and services as "goods."  In tallying up gross domestic
product (GDP) we never subtract any bads.  Chemicals are counted
as goods and the products they allow us to make are counted as
goods.  This makes sense.  But when our chemical factories
produce chemical waste dumps that must be cleaned up at huge
public expense, those costs are counted as "goods" too, instead
of being subtracted as bads.  If a few hundred or a few thousand
children get cancer from exposure to chemical wastes, their
hospitalization, their radiation treatments, their chemotherapy,
and their funeral expenses are all counted as "goods" in our
total GDP.  If their parents sue, all the resulting court
expenses are counted as goods, not bads.  In sum, the nation's
brightest economists maintain our national accounting system
with a calculator that has a plus key but no minus key.[3]
Therefore we have no way of knowing whether the costs of
economic growth have exceeded the benefits.  The nation's
economists (and politicians and business leaders) simply assume
that if GDP is rising, our standard of living is rising too.
But, as the song goes, it ain't necessarily so. (For substantial
evidence on this point, see REHW #516.)

Historically, growth is an aberration; a steady state economy is
the norm.  Only during the past 500 years has growth begun to
seem like the normal condition for human economies.  The
physical limits to growth (which we are now perceiving because
we have exceeded some of them) require us to return to the
steady state sooner or later.  If we do so by choice, we may be
able to guide the process and achieve a steady-state economy
with a reasonable approximation of the "good life" for most
people, world without end.[4]  On the other hand, if we continue
to blindly accept the ideology that growth is good, then natural
limits will reduce our numbers with an ecological meat axe and
the suffering will be immense.

Why do we have so much trouble imagining a no-growth economy?

Daly believes there is one central reason: because a
steady-state economy, one that is no longer physically growing,
will force us to confront the problem of inequality, which is
another name for the problem of poverty.  So long as the total
economic pie is growing we can say, "The poor will be lifted out
of 

Re: [CTRL] [Re: [CTRL] Outline of new Republican National Health Plan.]

[Robert Tatman]

 -Caveat Lector-

Sno0wl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 A program on TLC last night--"Armageddon"--showed the city built by
 the Swiss miles down, under the tunnel that runs through the Alps--a
 modern city equipped to house 20,000.  You don't build something like
 that if you're not expecting trouble.

 Does anyone here know even one person who would be able to enter one
 of our underground facilities in case of such trouble? Apart from
 that place in Virginia (?) does anyone know where our underground
 facilities are? (Not talking about subways.) Are any of them designed
 to be "open to the public"? Or are we all expendable?

Two points... First, the "Underground Capital" (Mount Weather, etc.) were
built to early 1950's specifications, and could not have survived a
multiple-warhead attack using high-yield nukes. Even NORAD HQ in Colorado
could not withstand a full nuclear assault. Second, from the start, the
underground shelters were never intended to provide space for the general
public, but only for the political and military elite, along with their
corporate sponsors. This was stated explicitly...

Bob

=
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DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Om

[CTRL] Howard Zinn/Iraq

[nurev]

 -Caveat Lector-

M O J O U R N A L
News from the MoJo Wire and Mother Jones magazine
December 16, 1998
http://www.motherjones.com/

S P E C I A L C O V E R A G E
___

Zinn blasts bombing / Alternative news of attack

As a reader service, and because Clinton doesn't bomb foreign countries
*all* that often, we've decided to immediately send out the MoJo Wire's
take on today's events. Included in this e-mail:

* Howard Zinn, author of A People's History of the United States, calls
the bombing "just another lie"

* Total Coverage: Where to find voices on the attack other than the big
networks and papers


IRAQ BOMBING "ANOTHER LIE," SAYS HISTORIAN ZINN

[Immediately after President Clinton announced the bombing of Iraq
today, we called Boston University historian HOWARD ZINN and asked for
his take. After a few minutes, he e-mailed this forceful accusation:]

President Clinton has just told another lie, this time not about the
relatively trivial matter of his sexual activities, but about matters of
life and death. In explaining his decision to bomb Baghdad, he said that
other nations besides Iraq have weapons of mass destruction, but Iraq
alone has used them.

He could only say this to a population deprived of history. The United
States has supplied Turkey, Israel, and Indonesia with such weapons and
they have used them against civilian populations. But the nation most
guilty is our own. No nation in the world possesses greater weapons of
mass destruction than we do, and none has used them more often, or with
greater loss of civilian life. In Hiroshima hundreds of thousands died,
in Korea and Vietnam millions died as a result of our use of such weapons.

Our economic sanctions are also weapons of mass destruction, having
resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi children.
Saddam Hussein may well have weapons of mass destruction, he may indeed
be inclined to use them, but only the United States is actually using
them, and at this very moment, people are dying in Iraq as a result.

However evil Saddam Hussein is, whatever potential danger he may
represent, he is not, as the president said tonight (telling another
lie) a "clear and present danger" to the peace of the world. We are.
And, as the president said, if there is a clear and present danger we
must act against it. It is a time for protest.

We are living in times of madness, when men in suits and ties, and yes,
a woman secretary of state, can solemnly defend the use, in the present,
of indiscriminate violence - they do not know what they are
bombing! - against a tyrant who may use violence, in the future. The
phrase "clear and present danger" has therefore lost its meaning. The
phrase "weapons of mass destruction" too has lost its meaning when a
nation which possesses more such weapons, and has used them more often,
than any other, uses those words to justify the killing of civilians "to
send a message." We who are offended by this should send our own message
to our demented leaders.

Howard Zinn is professor emeritus of history at Boston University, and
author of _A People's History of the United States_.

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
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Om

[CTRL] As Impeachment Looms, Clinton Seems In Denial (Reuters)

[Robert Tatman]

 -Caveat Lector-

As Impeachment Looms, Clinton Seems In Denial

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - To hear White House aides tell it Friday, President
Clinton is dealing with the gravest moment of his presidency his
all-but-certain impeachment -- with near total denial.

As the House of Representatives began to debate impeaching Clinton, the
political equivalent of an indictment that will put his fate in the hands of a
Senate trial, aides painted him as almost too busy with other matters to pay
attention.

Clinton began his day with a mid-morning briefing on the continuing air
strikes he launched against Iraq Wednesday, plunging the United States into a
dual crisis of military action and only the second House vote in its history
on impeaching a president.

He was to stay closeted in meetings, including a working lunch with European
Union officials, until well past sunset discussing such matters as the
minutiae of the federal budget, the spread of AIDS and the coming monetary
union in Europe.

In between, the White House said Clinton had just one meeting that touched
on his probable impeachment a session with wavering Connecticut
Republican Congressman Christopher Shays that the president did not even
request.

Asked if Clinton had a message for Shays, who is having second thoughts
about his plans to vote against impeachment, White House spokesman Joe
Lockhart said: ``No ... Shays says he had some things he wants to talk to the
president about. The president will be glad to listen and make his case.''

Lockhart said he did not know whether Clinton would have time to watch the
impeachment debate being broadcast live on television, saying that if he did
it would only be in passing.

But the portrait of studied unconcern painted by the White House was
undermined at mid-morning when first lady Hillary Rodham Clinton broke her
recent silence about the Republican drive to impeach her husband for his
efforts to conceal his affair with former White House intern Monica Lewinsky.

Walking to the White House South Lawn, where she tied a red ribbon to a Ford
Explorer to remind people not to drive drunk during the holidays, Mrs. Clinton
made an appeal for the country to find a way out of the mess.

``In this holiday season, as we celebrate Christmas, Hanukkah and Ramadan
and it's time for reflection and reconciliation among people, we in our
country ought to practice reconciliation and we ought to bring our country
together,'' she said.

``We ought to end divisiveness, because we can do so much more together,''
she said in response to a reporter's question.

Lockhart continued to argue that Clinton, who faces charges of perjury,
obstruction of justice and abuse of power, had done nothing that warranted his
impeachment.

But he could not deflect growing certainty that the Republicans have the votes
in the House to force an impeachment and prolong the crisis into next year,
when the Senate would be expected to hold a trial presided over by Chief
Justice William Rehnquist.

``If members can put the politics, the cynicism, the partisanship aside, then
I think that they will come to the same conclusion that we do,'' Lockhart
said. ``If they can't, then we may have a different result.''

=
Robert F. Tatman
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Remove "nospam" from the address to reply.

NOTICE: In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material is distributed 
without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included 
information for research and educational purposes. For
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POSTING THIS MESSAGE TO THE INTERNET DOES NOT IMPLY PERMISSION TO SEND UNSOLICITED 
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More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at 
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DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Om

Re: [CTRL] Ru Mills' Dream

[JYester]

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 12/17/98 9:12:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:


  U.S. Prez wears many hats. One hat is Commander-in-Chief. When
  Commander-in-Chief, legal argument is he's subject to U.S. Military
  Code.

  Brian Redman
  Conspiracy Nation News Service


It's a damned shame (in this instance only) that the Commander-in-Chief is NOT
subject to the MCJ. But alas, under the constitution, and in the spirit of
"separation of powers," the Commander-in-Chief IS a civilian. In other words,
the US military is constitutionally under civilian control and command.
Therefore the military has no legal power of arrest. On the other hand, the
proper constitutional process is moving forward as we speak. Let us hope that
enough Democrat senators, assuming impeachment, will have enough respect for
the constitution, or if not, enough fear of how they will be historically
judged, to vote a just verdict, ie, the ejection of this Commander-in-Chief.

Jim

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Om

[CTRL] Khazaria.......NOT!

[Daniel Holly]

 -Caveat Lector-

-  SNETNEWS  Mailing List

Idiotic nonsense. Anyone who reads history knows Jews aren't Khazars.
Before Khazaria even existed, numerous ancient witnesses doscumented the
spread of the Jews all over the world, expecially everywhere in the Roman
empire.  The Jews now in Israel came from all over the world. Their
presence there as authentic jews is predicted for the end times by the
prophets. (See the last few chapters of Zechariah in the Bible for
example)
Jewish culture shows almost no central asian cultural character. Yes some
Khazars converted to Judiaism in the early middle ages. The blatant
dishonest extrapolation of this idea is only advocated by ignorant
racists serving the interests of those who want to divert the blame from
themselves for NWO consequences and pawn the responsibility onto a single
ethnic/religous group who form but a small minority of the classification
truly responsible for the evils now becoming apparent. Its the old Hitler
trick on behalf of the European mostly non-Jewish elite sponsors.  Once
again, one has to look at the defining classification that's truly
responsible, not the
minority whose clasification has nothing inherently to do with the evil.
I'm not going to be quiet, to let idiots keep spouting lies and win
merely by the Nazi  tactic of repeating such over and over. Could use
some help thoughg.

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Om

Re: [CTRL] Khazaria.......NOT!

[Kenn Thomas]

 -Caveat Lector-

  The blatant dishonest extrapolation of this idea is only advocated by ignorant
 racists serving the interests of those who want to divert the blame from
 themselves for NWO consequences and pawn the responsibility onto a single
 ethnic/religous group who form but a small minority of the classification
 truly responsible for the evils now becoming apparent.

As much as I understand this, I think I must disagree with it. This topic was
well-researched and explained thoroughly by Arthur Koestler in the book The
Thirteenth Tribe. The argument should be made against his scholarship, not the
distortions of racists or advocates of a particular religion.

kt

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and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
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spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
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Om

Re: [CTRL] As Impeachment Looms, Clinton Seems In Denial (Reuters)

[RoadsEnd]

 -Caveat Lector-

Hilary,
There are 55 Republicans in the Senate, it will take 66 votes to convict.
Conviction will not happen. Will there be a 'paralyzing' trial'?
I believe that a natural defense for any later criminal trial would be 'double
jeopardy'. I believe Clinton has stated that he would not except a pardon for
his 'alleged' crimes.

His ace? He knows whom he got his 'job' from? Tranquilzers, etc . . .?

Om
K

In a message dated 12/18/98 1:38:25 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Well this is interesting...  Correct me if I am wrong but, once it goes to a

vote and if he is impeached isn't there automatically a criminal trial?  I

understood that if he resigned and was pardoned then he wouldn't face a

trial.  So, if he "appears" unconcerned I have to ask, what Ace does he have

up his sleeve?



Hilary

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==
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and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
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Om

Re: [CTRL] Honour Among ...

[Barb Witt]

 -Caveat Lector-

At 01:16 PM 12/18/98 -0500, you wrote:
 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 12/18/98 2:55:14 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


 As far as Livingston, or any of the other philanderers/crooks in office,
they
 too can screw their brains out, they just cannot lie about it beforea trial
 court and a grand jury.


In any ethics class or discussion, your statement would be an excellent
example of narrow legalism taking the place of objective reality.

And in any conversation outside academia among persons utilizing common
sense, your statement would be an excellent example of pseudo
intellectualism, arrogantly hurled to facilitate your attempt to change the
subject, ignore the facts and promote a particular ideology.I do
appreciate the feedback, it's just so predictable!

Try using your "narrow legalism vs. objective reality" outside a classroom,
say in a courtroom, and see how far it gets you.

Regards,

Barb

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
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and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and
outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
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gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to
readers;
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Om


DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
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screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Om

Re: [CTRL] As Impeachment Looms, Clinton Seems In Denial (Reuters)

[RoadsEnd]

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 12/18/98 2:22:19 PM, RoadsEnd wrote:

I believe Clinton has stated that he would not except a pardon for
his 'alleged' crimes.

Ok, I meant accept  --

I believe Clinton has stated that he would not accept a pardon for
his 'alleged' crimes.

Sorry,

Om
K

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
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screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

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Om

[CTRL] Murdered! Diana - Dodi, Barrantes, Alan Pakula

[RoadsEnd]

 -Caveat Lector-

from alt.conspiracy
-
As always, Caveat Lector.
Om
K
-
A HREF="aol://5863:126/alt.conspiracy:469916"Murdered! Diana - Dodi,
Barrantes, Alan Pakula/A
-
Subject: Murdered! Diana - Dodi, Barrantes, Alan Pakula
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Fri, Dec 18, 1998 12:07 PM
Message-id: 75ecln$fur$[EMAIL PROTECTED]

The results of my postings concerning the murder of
Hollywood Director Allan Pakula(recently killed in a very unusual
car accident?) and the mysterious death death of Princess Diana
and Dodi have been very interesting.

Those inside the system(?) replied with the usual stuff__
trying to conceal the fact that a true conspiracy exists.
I'm familar with their tactics__ignore the sophmoric
responses. The interesting responses have been those supportive
of my theory!

My theory being that the recent mysterious death of Alan
Pakula was the result of X-tremely high technology that could also
have been utilized to assassinate Diana and Dodi___in addition,
my theory exposes a Hollywood connection between Tinsel town,
the news story I'm working on(considered the real Pelican Brief),
and Princess Diana. H?

Upon further research I have found another interesting fact
concerning what I consider mysterious automobile accidents.

Sarah Ferguson's mother, Susan Barrantes, was killed in a
grisly automobile accident__and according to my memory,
and the article written in non-other-than the New York Post
(the same newspaper that printed the grissly details
about Director Allan Pakula being harpooned in the head
by a steel pipe while tooling down the Long Island
Expressway) said that Susan Barrantes was instantly
beheaded___sounds like another secret, secret, service
hit! I should also add that I sort a met Sarah when she
was at ABC(w 67 st, NYC) promoting her new book(1996?)__the photographs
I took of here were stolen! H?

   MOTHER OF DUCHESS OF YORK DIES IN CAR CRASH(Lycos news)


The mother of Duchess of York Sarah Ferguson was killed Saturday night
when her car and a van collided on a highway in Argentina. Police said
Susan Barrantes' Rover 420 hatchback collided head-on with a Renault
catering van. Barrantes died instantly.

Barrantes' daughter Sarah Ferguson is the former wife of Prince Andrew,
the second son of Queen Elizabeth. Barrantes left Ferguson's father,
Major Ronald Ferguson, for Argentine professional polo player Hector
Barrantes in 1975. The duchess, who remained close with
her mother and step-father, flew to Argentina Sunday night.
Barrantes will be buried near

Buenos Aires beside her second husband, who died of cancer in 1990.


For those interested in my news story and why the U.S. media
has effectively concealed the story I suggest you try the
following web pages(the website is being censored).

http://members.tripod.com/~mansue/index.html

and

http://www.geocities.com/capitolhill/5811/index.html


The website that is being censored(and has not been
revised in about 7 months)

http://www.mansue.com


Thank you and I'll keep those interested in the truth posted!

Wayne Manzo,

Freedom Fighter, Plaintiff, Engineer, Producer, Web Master



---== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==--
http://www.dejanews.com/   Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own





-
Aloha, He'Ping,
Om, Shalom, Salaam.
Em Hotep, Peace Be,
Omnia Bona Bonis,
All My Relations.
Adieu, Adios, Aloha.
Amen.
Roads End
Kris

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
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and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
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Om

Re: [CTRL] [Re: [CTRL] Skolnick: Various Dangers To Clinton and Gore]

[Robert Tatman]

 -Caveat Lector-

Brian Redman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Thu, 17 Dec 1998, Gerald Harp wrote:

   -Caveat Lector-
 
  In a message dated 12/17/98 3:48:49 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
  writes:
 
  
On Wednesday, Dec. 16, 1998, according to Mr. Skolnick's sources,
over a score of top-level military brass, Admirals and  Generals,
were  considering  how  to  go  about  arresting  President  Bill
Clinton,   their  Commander-in-Chief,  under  provisions  of  the
U.S. Military Code.
 
  This is pure bunk.

 Hmmm"pure bunk": good "sound-bite"; sounds authoritative.

  We are not some banana republic.


 On the contrary, we are the banana republic *par excelence* since,
 after all, We Are Chiquita (and United Fruit), and the others are
 just imitators.

 Brian Redman

Given the level of sheer hatred of Clinton among Congressional Republicans,
and given the politically-conservative tendencies of high-ranking military
officers, it would not surprise me at all that in fact there exists a cabal of
generals and admirals planning to arrest Clinton. Gore would at least be
acceptable to them, even knowing the depth of his liberalism, because he is
after all a Vietnam veteran rather than a draft-dodger. There are others in
Washington, not necessarily among the military, whose hatred extends beyond
Clinton personally to include everything the Democratic party has historically
stood for; *they* might very well try to kill Gore to prevent a thoroughgoing
liberal from becoming president.

This country is poised on the edge of a very deep abyss. Somehow we have to
keep our balance and pull ourselves back from the brink...but there are many,
many people jumping up and down and doing their best to push us over the edge.
I hear the ghost of Jefferson murmuring, "I tremble for my country when I
reflect that God is just..."

Bob

=
Robert F. Tatman
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Om

Re: [CTRL] [[CTRL] Fwd: 'Tis the Season to Be Homeless]

[Robert Tatman]

 -Caveat Lector-

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
"The U.S. Conference of Mayors reported a 15% increase in the number of
homeless families requesting shelter this year.  It cited lack of affordable
housing as one reason for the increase.

"Welfare benefit cutoffs and reductions are kicking in all across the
country. When they do, the result seems to be the same -- more homeless
families.

"'Almost all of our emergency facilities for women and children are full,
have waiting lists and are turning people away,'' said a Baltimore homeless
shelter director.

"In 10 major cities within the last year, almost half of all families on
welfare became homeless after their benefits were reduced or eliminated."

snip

...And meanwhile, thanks to a decision by the Congress that Defense Department
funds should not be wasted on non-defense activities, the program that
distributed unused surplus military blankets to organizations serving the
homeless has been eliminated. I guess it was just more important that all
those Republican congressmen and senators get new highways in their home
districts than that the poorest of the poor get through a single night without
freezing to death... But then the homeless generally don't vote Republican, do
they?

Bob



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frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
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[CTRL] Cold War Returns

[Brian Redman]

 -Caveat Lector-

"COLD WAR" RETURNS
==

(CNNS,  12/18/98) -- It's "back to the old drawing board" for the
Global Planners, who have "thrown in the towel" on their plan for
"One World."  The Cold War days are coming back, at least for the
near future.

That  the  reverse-course,   heading   us   back  to  an  earlier
geo-political *status quo*, is on the way, is shown most  clearly
by  the  dethronement of Bill Clinton.  But there are other signs
as well.

"Ru  Mills",  in  earlier  reports,  had  described  two  warring
factions  in  the  Western intelligence community:  Faction 1 and
Faction 2.  Faction 1 was  said  to be pro-"One World"; Faction 2
was said to favor the nation-state.   "Ru  Mills"  had  reported,
about a year ago, that Faction 2 had gained control.  And Faction
2, according to the pseudonymed "Ru Mills", wants to bring back a
Cold War balance of power.

The Faction 1/"One World" plan  has  been defeated, thanks to the
fact  that  enough  Americans  stayed  awake  during  the   1990s
*blitzkrieg*  of  propaganda,  hedonism and materialism to make a
difference.  It was disheartening,  during  those times, for some
of us to see how many of  our  fellow  citizens  succumbed  to  a
virtual  reality which turned them into gibbering couch potatoes.
But the Global Planners, revealed  now as not omniscient, had not
foreseen how strong of an underground  resistance  many  ruggedly
individualistic Americans would be capable of mounting.

Now,  these  Think-Tank  overseers of "what's best" are having to
face up to the failure of  their  One World plan.  They will, for
the moment, just revise  their  computer  models  of  interacting
systems,  run  them  through  the  machines,  and  see  what  the
print-outs  have  to  say.  In the meantime, they have decided to
fall back on the old tried-and-true Cold War model.

What This Means
---
We  can  expect  a  resurgence  of  the Russian Bear.  The goodly
Russian people will now be called upon to "do their part" for the
overall benefit.  They are  now  called  upon to once more assume
their previous role of archetypal "bad guys."   CNNS  (Conspiracy
Nation News Service) wishes to thank the Russian people for their
forebearance  in  taking  on  the part they are about to perform.
Their imminent Shakespearean role is not the favored character in
the play.   Before  the  Iron  Curtain  once  more descends, CNNS
extends a  thank  you  to  a  great  nation  which  has  produced
Dostoievsky, Tolstoy, and Solzhenitsyn.

We can expect an easing of  repression, here in the U.S. Now that
"Evil Russia" is about to be cast as the major villain, the  U.S.
government will no  longer  need  "big  enemies"  here at home to
justify its existence.

We can expect somewhat of a return to traditional male and female
roles.  The human  male  is  biologically  programmed  to be "the
provider."  This term, "biologically programmed", carries with it
thousands of years of human evolution, during  which  the  male's
task has been to succor his wife and children, by providing food,
shelter,  and clothing.  Betty Frieden notwithstanding, ingrained
human biological  realities  cannot  be  over-written  by wishful
thinking.  Coinciding with the dethronement of  Bill  Clinton  is
the dethronement of Hillary Clinton, and all she represents.

We can expect  a  truly  better  employment situation, instead of
"lies, damned lies, and statistics."  The former virtual  reality
had   attempted   to  convince  us  that  there  were  plenty  of
good-paying jobs available,  even  though  this was obviously not
the  case.   The  renewed  Cold  War  will   mean   a   boom   in
manufacturing,  centered  in  the  nation-state.   And  a turning
toward traditional male/female  roles  will  mean  that many more
women  can  now  escape  the  drudgery  of   9-to-5   jobs,   and
concurrently  will  increase  =real=  demand  for  male  workers,
consequently   improving  their  rate-of-pay.   Furthermore,  the
imminent, returning, Cold  War  model,  with  its favoring of the
nation-state,  will  impede  illegal  immigration  and  resultant
competition for jobs.

 +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +

INFORMATION PLEASE:  Conspiracy Nation  News  Service (CNNS) is a
co-operative effort.  Without the hints/rumors provided  by  many
excellent  sources,  we could not exist.  Have YOU heard anything
lately  that  might  be  important?   Pass  it  along  to  us  at
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Anonymity is guaranteed.  If you  prefer, send your news tip or
clues  on  same  to:   Brian  Redman,  310  S.  Prairie   (#202),
Champaign,  IL  61820.   Or you can go to a pay phone and call in
your news tip: 217-356-4418.
  THEY will never tell us the whole truth about what is going on.
But we, the People, working together, can find out what is REALLY
happening.

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==
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Re: [CTRL] Honour Among ...

[KA]

 -Caveat Lector-

On Fri, 18 Dec 1998 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Personally, I think the president should resign.  Perjury is not an
impeachable offense.

Sure it is...legally, perjury is considered a 'weightier' crime than
bribery...

Federal judges have been impeached merely for frequenting bawdy houses...

Any behavior which is considered misconduct in office is impeachable,
somethign our founding fathers recognized, as they drew upon the history
and precedents of impeachment in the English Parliamentary system...where
members have ALSO been impeached for spending time with prostitutes...


Even if it is perjury. That is up to a criminal court He
may be indicted in a criminal indictment but he may not be brought to a
criminal trial untill after he leaves office.

Which is why the House impeaches, and the Senate holds a trial...if two-
thirds of the Senate deems that the charges have merit and vote the
president out of office, then the criminal proceedings can commence...

What you are arguing for is keeping a potentially criminally liable
person in office until his term of office ends...


There are many other 'offenses'
that Clinton could be impeached on but those involve both political parties
and the cryptocracy.

No argument there...


June


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CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Re: [CTRL] As Impeachment Looms, Clinton Seems In Denial (Reuters)

[M. A. Johnson]

 -Caveat Lector-

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
There are 55 Republicans in the Senate, it will take 66
votes to convict.  Conviction will not happen. Will there
be a 'paralyzing' trial'? I believe that a natural defense
for any later criminal trial would be 'double jeopardy'. I
believe Clinton has stated that he would not except a pardon
for his 'alleged' crimes.

 His ace? He knows whom he got his 'job' from?
 Tranquilzers, etc . . .?
MJ:
Article I, Section 3, Clause 6:

... no Person shall be convicted without the Concurrence of
two thirds of the Members present.
^^^ ^^ ^^ ^^^ ^^^ ^^^

67 in the case of 100.

The Senate is NOT the House ... Clinton finds many Ds in opposition
to what he has done to THEIR party and its tradition.  It would NOT
be advisable to 'jump' so quickly.

Regard$,
--MJ

I am certain that nothing has done so much to
destroy the juridicial safeguards of individual
freedom as the striving after this mirage of social
justice.
-- Fredrich von Hayek,
   Economic Freedom and Representative Government; 1973

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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Re: [CTRL] A Fresh Look At Clinton

[Reverend S. Michael Wilson]

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 12/18/98 12:09:27 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  -Caveat Lector-

 With all due respect, Reverend, I think you are confused on a number of
 key issues. The Republican party has championed the idea of trying to
 impose the Christian fundamentalist agenda on the country.  It is
 President Bill Clinton who has tried bring some measure of diversity to
 the political process ( his willingness to appoint gays and women to key
 positions in government).
  

Nope, no confusion here.  I'm not backing either the Republicans or
Democrats, so I'm not stuck in the position of having to attack Clinton
because I hate Democrats, nor do I feel obligated to defend Clinton because I
hate Republicans.  I think both sides have heads firmly placed in their
collective ass.  Let them fight out their territorial battles in an adult
version of "Shirts  Skins", I'll simply sit in the sidelines and shout my
opinions until I loose my voice or I'm dragged away by security.
As for Clinton the Crusader, isn't this is the same guy who refused to force
the military to conform to Discrimination Laws by allowing gays to join, but
instead passed the absurd "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy?  Didn't he also fire
someone on his cabinet (Surgeon General, perhaps?  My memory fails to recall
her name and position at the moment) for suggesting that facts about
masturbation be taught in school sex education classes to help prevent
teenagers from having sex at a young age?  (Not the greatest approach, I grant
you, but it certainly couldn't do any harm...)  And lets not forget his
crusade against tobacco companies, which might eventually lead to outlawing
tobacco products?  Hiring gays is fine and dandy, but not allowing them to
enjoy the same benifits has hetero couples simply because they fall into a
minority is far from helping personal freedom.
Just some more thoughts...

Cuddling my Furby in an impure manner,
Rev. S. Michael Wilson

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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[CTRL] I Believe

[Gavin Phillips]

 -Caveat Lector-

An oldy but goody. Gavin.

  I BELIEVE
  By Michael Kelly
  Wednesday, February 4, 1998

   I believe the president. I have always believed him. I believed him
   when he said he had never been drafted in the Vietnam War and I
   believed him when he said he had forgotten to mention that he had
   been drafted in the Vietnam War. I believed him when he said he
   hadn't had sex with Gennifer Flowers and I believe him now, when
   he reportedly says he did.

   I believe the president did not rent out the Lincoln Bedroom, did
   not sell access to himself and the vice president to hundreds of
   well-heeled special pleaders and did not supervise the largest,
   most systematic money-laundering operation in campaign finance
   history, collecting more than $3 million in illegal and improper
   donations. I believe that Charlie Trie and James Riady were
   motivated by nothing but patriotism for their adopted country.

   I believed Vice President Gore when he said that he had made
   dunning calls to political contributors "on a few occasions" from
   his White House office, and I believed him when he said that,
   actually, "a few" meant 46. I believe in no controlling legal
   authority.

   I believe Bruce Babbitt when he says that the $286,000
   contributed to the DNC by Indian tribes opposed to granting a
   casino license to rival tribes had nothing to do with his denial of
   the license. I believed the secretary when he said that he had not
   been instructed in this matter by then-White House deputy chief
   of staff Harold Ickes. I believed him when he said later that he had
   told lobbyist and friend Paul Eckstein that Ickes had told him to
   move on the casino decision, but that he had been lying to
   Eckstein. I agree with the secretary that it is an outrage that
   anyone would question his integrity.

   I believe in the Clinton Standard of adherence to the nation's
   campaign finance and bribery laws, enunciated by the president on
   March 7, 1997: "I don't believe you can find any evidence of the
   fact that I had changed government policy solely because of a
   contribution." I note with approval the use of the word "evidence"
   and also the use of the word "solely." I believe that it is proper to
   change government policy to address the concerns of people who
   have given the president money, as long as nobody can find
   evidence of this being the sole reason.

   I believe the president has lived up to his promise to preside over
   the most ethical administration in American history. I believe that
   indicted former agriculture secretary Mike Espy did not accept
   $35,000 in illegal favors from Tyson Foods and other regulated
   businesses. I believe that indicted former housing secretary Henry
   Cisneros did not lie to the FBI and tell others to lie to cover up
   $250,000 in blackmail payments to his former mistress. I believe
   that convicted former associate attorney general Webster Hubbell
   was not involved in the obstruction of justice when the president's
   minions arranged for Hubbell to receive $400,000 in sweetheart
   consulting deals at a time when he was reneging on his promise to
   cooperate with Kenneth Starr's Whitewater investigation.

   I believe Paula Jones is a cheap tramp who was asking for it. I
   believe Kathleen Willey is a cheap tramp who was asking for it. I
   believe Monica Lewinsky is a cheap tramp who was asking for it.

   I believe Lewinsky was fantasizing in her 20 hours of taped
   conversation in which she reportedly detailed her sexual
   relationship with the president and begged Linda Tripp to join her
   in lying about the relationship. I believe that any gifts,
   correspondence, telephone calls and the 37 post-employment
   White House visits that may have passed between Lewinsky and
   the president are evidence only of a platonic relationship; such
   innocent intimate friendships are quite common between
   middle-aged married men and young single women, and also
   between presidents of the United States and White House interns.

   I see nothing suspicious in the report that the president's intimate,
   Vernon Jordan, arranged a $40,000-per-year job for Lewinsky
   shortly after she signed but before she filed an affidavit saying she
   had not had sex with the president. Nor do I read anything into the
   fact that the ambassador to the United Nations, Bill Richardson,
   visited Lewinsky at the Watergate to offer her a job. I believe the
   instructions Lewinsky gave Tripp informing her on how to
   properly perjure herself in the Willey matter simply wrote
   themselves.

   I believe that The Washington Post, the Los Angeles Times, The
   New York Times, Newsweek, Time, U.S. News  World Report,
   ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN, PBS and NPR are all part of a vast
   right-wing conspiracy. Especially NPR.

   -

   Michael Kelly is a senior writer for National Journal.
   
  

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER

Re: [CTRL] Honour Among ...

[Gavin Phillips]

 -Caveat Lector-

Linda Minor says;

 Thanks for your posts.  What some people with tunnel-vision or blinders on
 this list can't seem to comprehend is what my favorite teachers in
 undergraduate school always called, laughingly, "the Big Picture."  This is
 why Hitler was able to control the German people so easily.

No, it wasn't that easy at all, it was a combination of prevailant German
philosphers, Kant and Hegel, whose views were the subjugation of the
individual to the group, the group to the company, the company to the Fuhrer;
self secrifice and doing one's duty. As Leonard Peikoff says in "The Ominous
Parallels", it was the professors and ph.D's which helped to sell nazism to
the German people, (pg 25, "(The Nazi) death camps," notes a writer in the New
York Times, "were conceived, built and often administered by ph.D's.") coupled
with a charismatic meglomaniac who told everybody he was going to pull the
country up by it's bootstraps, as long as you do your duty; throw in a lot of
greed, hundreds of thousands of people got rich or at least made money (see
"The Splendid Blond Beast") through asset stripping of the Jews. The bankers
put up much of the money, Standard oil (Rockefeller) supplied petroleum. Those
are some of the major factors responsible for Hitler's reign.

Linda says;
You can take a
 good idea (like preventing sexual harrassment in the business world), then
 get a law passed.  If you can't control the president any other way, you
 select someone to set him up (like Monica, with her sexually obsessive
 background and ties to wealthy families like Peter Straus), then get her a
 job as an unpaid intern.   She flirts, smiles, wiggles, and does all the
 things Bill is known to respond to.  When he repeatedly says no to her, she
 suddenly is befriended by someone with a long background of "intelligence"
 connections who starts warning her about the need to have evidence to
 protect herself.


I say;
What on earth are you talking about, "If you can't control the president any
other way", the man *is* totally controlled, he's a Rockefeller prodigy,
Rhodes "Scholar" and has committed so many crimes during his Arkansas Governor
days and ensuing  Presidency it's pointless going over them all again.. The
morons who call these crimes "alleged" are either living in a disassociative
state, are incurably ignorant, or are serving a particular agenda. Janet Reno
has been running major interference for Bill since becoming Attorney General
and the "Justice" Department is also rotten to the core. (checkout the inslaw
case) How do you know he repeatedly said "No to her", because Clinton says so?
Clinton is a pathological womaniser, lier, malignant narcissist whose only
emotion or thoughts revolve around his own gratification and self-
aggrandizement. Clinton's an excellent actor, as are most sociopaths, and
that's why so many people have been fooled for so long.

That's when Starr's friends, associates and former
 partners in various jobs he's held can be seen to be manipulating Lucianne
 Goldberg and Linda Tripp to send Monica back to make more enticements.  At
 the same time they were bribing Paula Jones and actually putting up the
 money to keep her lawsuit going alleging harrassment, when her reputation in
 sexual matters was equally as seedy as Monica's.  But it was a legal
 technicality, and that's all they had to hang their hat on.

I say;
Starr's "investigation" was a "Dog and pony show"; pretend you're doing
something when in reality you're doing exactly nothing; don't concentrate on
the most important cases such as Chinagate, Whitewater, Filegate, Travelgate,
Vince Foster cover-up, Ron Brown "accident", the dozens of convenient deaths
surrounding Bill, instead focus on a salacious sexual scandal which you know
the majority of Americans don't give a damn about. Starr showed his true
agenda when he concluded that Foster had committed suicide. Yes, he really is
vindictively and tenaciously trying to "nail" Clinton, isn't he?!


Linda says;
 Anyone who refuses to see that this was a set up is no different than the
 people who followed Hitler blindly into the holocaust.  It's easy to create
 a law and then focus on its technicalities.  That's why we no longer have
 justice under the American system of jurisprudence.  The big picture of the
 Constitution, due process, fundamental fairness have been removed.  All for
 the sake of--what?  What motivates these technocrats?  It certainly isn't
 morality.  Ask yourself who these people really are; what is their
 background?  Do some research and use your brain.

 That's what I like about your posts, William.  They show you think and ask
 questions.  Thanks.


I say;
The blind leading the blind. Gavin.





 Linda Minor
  

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many 

Re: [CTRL] Honour Among ...

[Gavin Phillips]

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 98-12-18 11:02:10 EST, you write:

 At 06:52 AM 12/18/98 -0600, Linda Minor wrote:
  -Caveat Lector-

 
 Anyone who refuses to see that this was a set up is no different than the
 people who followed Hitler blindly into the holocaust.

 O.k., assuming, arguendo, that your speculation is correct,  I would still
 prefer someone in the White House who is not so easily manipulated, or at
 least more in control of himself than my dog.  This is your defense - that
 Clinton is not responsible for his own actions?

 Do some research and use your brain.

 Why are certain persons on this list so friggin arrogant?  Because someone
 disagrees with you does not mean that they aren't using their brain.  Could
 your reference to tunnel vision simply be a projection of your own
 behavior???   In light of your education, the fawning veneration that you
 display for a political figure is inconceivable.
 

 That's what I like about your posts, William.  They show you think and ask
 questions.

 Translation:  You agree with my view of St. Clinton.

 Stripped of the verbiage, these defenses have been repeatedly propounded by
 the Clintonistas:

 (a) Clinton's lies were only about sex - one must be a prude to object;
 (b) Everyone engages in extra-marital affairs;
 (c) Republicans are criminals but don't get caught;
 (d) The vast right wing conspiracy is out to get Clinton; and the newest
 and most profound
 (e) Monica made him do it.

 You'll have to do much better than the above to convince anyone who has not
 worshipped at Clinton's altar.

 Barb
  

Bravo, some good points. Gavin.

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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[CTRL] Fwd: [priory-of-sion] additonal communique/Dagobert

[RoadsEnd]

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]


Message from M. Dagobert:

I will try to answer quickly to Jack:

- The role of Poussin: he was a very talented painter, born in the Andelys
in Normandy and had been initiated to the mysteries of the merovingian
dynasty.

- If you read well "the story of the Francs" by Gregoire de Tours, you
will see that after the victory of Clovis over the wisigoth kindom, most of
his sons and after, including Childeric III, got married with wisigoth
princesses who brought in the marriage a huge treasure. It is well sure that
that richess in real metal came from the famous treasure that Alaric !st
brought back from Rome in 410. It is not a legend since the Arch of Triumph of
Titus in Rome mention the treasure of Jerusalem that he himself took from the
Jews in 73 AD.

- I do not think that there was a link between the original Priory of Sion
and the free-masonry that did not exist at that time, except under the form of
companions, which means operative free-masonry/

- Sauniere probabbly did not find any important treasure in Rennes-le-
Chateau except the one of Abbe Bigou.

- However, he read the archives of the general Dagobert and of the
Philadelphes from Narbonne thanks to his brother Alfred.

- Behind the conspiration, there is of course the Opus Dei that already
supported general France against the spanish republicans.

- Of course, the religious influences are very important in the story
through the Vatican with the help of the Opus Dei qhich looks for the
restauration of the Germanic Roman Holy Empire with the olf european families
under the supervision of the Habsbourg.



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Re: [CTRL] MREs

[Jim]

 -Caveat Lector-

Hilary Thomas wrote:
 Has anyone been able to verify government stockpiling of MREs in West
 Virginia mountains or this just another hoax?

   I don't know about West Virginia but I have friends in the
Kansas City area who have emailed me that the homeless guys
that congregate in some areas to get day labor jobs have in
the recent past been picked up and worked for a week at a time
unloading trucks full of MRE's inside wire fenced government
installations in the KC area. Don't know if this helps but FWIW.

   Jim

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==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.


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