Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation - H.H.

[RoadsEnd]

 -Caveat Lector-

Listen -up Barb and Jim,
This is my list to run as I wish. I can expose myself to any idea I wish.

 If you believe that my and many others are "simply unable to bear the
discomfort that can result from exposure to the ideas of others, and are
especially
confounded when those ideas directly challenge their own world view. "

You are sadly mistaken.

I do not have to, nor will I sustain promulugation of disruption and 'evil'.
Racism and nazism are evil created by man. That is were evil comes from, man.
IMHO

Go look in the archives, Hawk and his psuedonymphette Charlene added very few
informational posts and if you read their posts, most are very disruptive and
dissension creating.

All of a sudden the lIst was topping over its 100 a message limit everyday and
there is still 'stupid' dissension and discussion going on.

The utility of the list is a big concern, for with more traffic comes problems
of time and functionality of the list and then dealing with the 'problem'.

For the problem must be dealt with or one is left with the spectacle such as
alt.conspiracy, which is awash with " ideas directly challenge" your "own
world view. "

So if you wish to challenge your world view then go right ahead. Go to
alt.conspiracy and wallow.  I have found nothing in nazism, racism and
dogmatic theocratism that is worth discussing, except about what they are,
wrong.

And I have challenged my world-view many times.

Go, back in the archives and read the record and while you are at it you may
notice all what you two fine persons have contributed to  our understandings.

Om
K





 I understand, some persons are simply unable to bear the discomfort that
 can result from exposure to the ideas of others, and are especially
 confounded when those ideas directly challenge their own world view.  It is
 probably better that you filter, rather than overextend.

 Barb
 Jim Norman:  Thanks Barb, for a excellent thought, expertly crafted and
clear
to
 its meaning.  You have helped crystalize in my mind the words to express a
 nagging "what's wrong with this picture" feeling as I followed this thread.
I
 couldn't understand why Hawk was castigated for simply expressing ideas.

Jim Norman

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==
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screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation - H.H.

[nurev]

 -Caveat Lector-

Hawk wrote:

  Enjoy your Mercedes. Have a nice day.

 I will... or maybe the Cadillac... Gee If I were to get rid of the Cadillac, 
would
 it materialize in some African's front yard?

 Hawk

Don't bother, I'm sure that someone will come and take it when they
need it. Maybe they'll leave you a thank you note. Nah!

Joshua2

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
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and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation - H.H.

[Barb Witt]

 -Caveat Lector-

At 08:13 PM 1/17/99 -0800, Chris wrote:
 -Caveat Lector-

[EMAIL PROTECTED],Internet writes:
I understand, some persons are simply unable to bear the discomfort that
can result from exposure to the ideas of others, and are especially
confounded when those ideas directly challenge their own world view.  It
is
probably better that you filter, rather than overextend.

Barb


maybe you and squawk ought to start your own list, then you could expose
each other to the truth and logic of your ideas. and you would not be
lonely because you would have each other.

grinnin' dis time,
chris

Chris, you know I'd never leave without you!!  Besides, you need truth and
logic and who would worry about your meds??

Barb

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
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screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Om

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation - H.H.

[Carlene M. Wojahn]

E Mail wrote:
-Caveat Lector-
[EMAIL PROTECTED],Internet writes:
>I understand, some persons are simply unable to bear the discomfort
that
>can result from exposure to the ideas of others,
Yes, it can be difficult to look at other ideas,
but if you don't you are stuck in a rut, and learning, learning is limited
to what you believe. Some times your beliefs should be challenged,
when they are you see the other way people can look at things, and your
beliefs might get stronger. Are some of the people on the list, so
insecure, they have to resort to name calling. Let us get back to
the topic, and to references..and follow the rules that this list was built
on...no emailing.
and are especially
>confounded when those ideas directly challenge their own world view.
It
>is
>probably better that you filter, rather than overextend.
>>>AMEN
maybe you and squawk ought to start your own list,
then you could expose
each other to the truth a
Well, the truth or even discussing another point of view is not
welcomed here, at least not on this subject. It appears in looking
back at the archive people have drawn this Hawk guy into a conversation,
by saying stuff like why aren't you answeringwell not in those words
but means the same and when he does, when anyone else does, with a different
point of view you attack.
and logic of your ideas
>>Logic...yes logic is needed on this list or at least with this
discussion. I hate name calling of any kind, and it looks like that is
what is expected on this list. If someone has a different point of
view you knock him/her down. You have to learn to take your blinders
off
and look at the whole picture...like different mores...and the like.
What happened in the past can not be judged correctly by today's mores.
bet you even think...that we should apologize...going to another war here,
for the bombing of Hiroshima.
and you would not be lonely because you would have
each other.
>>>and probably a lot more. You answering with your rudeness
is what I meant by Kris setting the tone, for this listabusive, narrow
minded.at least with this subject and how this discussion
has been going.

grinnin' dis time,
chris

>Wait !! Are you the same Kris...that has this list.now I am sounding
paranoid.and you knowgrinning can be done by even an idiot...G>
lol
See what I mean...this is how you sound...abusive.

>Your minds seem to be closed to any learning..all SOME of you want
to do, is find a clique and go by that. There is no basis for name
calling here.
>>Remember me sending this following post in reply to someone writing
this.
I would say that this list is in deep trouble---again.
Well I thought things quieted down, but I was wrong, people have
to keep badgering one another and it isn't from the newbies.
> >
Remember me writing this in one of my previous posts(trying to
get back onto the topic...just watch..for name calling)
>>>Well, I wasn't wrong, was I ? Tried to get it
back on to the topic and what happens ? People get called names
again !!!
I would say that this list is in deep trouble---again.
> >
>Right !! Let us get back to the topic..at hand.
 I do want to learn and will, if we can
get back to the points at hand.
Now we're doing it with some other guys who think
some slavery is okay?
I never said it was okay..try to relate to the past. Can
we condemn those, the society for different mores. It was not
necessarily wrong at
that time.
Carlene
(trying to get back onto the topic...just watch..for name
calling)

Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation - H.H.

[Jim Norman]

 -Caveat Lector-

Barb Witt wrote:

  -Caveat Lector-

 At 07:05 PM 1/17/99 +,  Snobird wrote:
  -Caveat Lector-

 Congratulations, Hawk!
 
 You have made it to my Filter-Delete list.
 
 I have absolutely no idea what you are doing here. I have absolutely no idea
 what
 you're trying to say to people on this list that has any value.. And until
 something
 convinces me otherwise, I want to save the bandwith.
 
 IMO, Kris is making a mistake trying to "argue" with you. I'm sorry to see
 that. You
 are clearly a no-win kinda guy.
 
 Enjoy your Mercedes. Have a nice day.
 sno0wl

 I understand, some persons are simply unable to bear the discomfort that
 can result from exposure to the ideas of others, and are especially
 confounded when those ideas directly challenge their own world view.  It is
 probably better that you filter, rather than overextend.

 Barb
 Jim Norman:  Thanks Barb, for a excellent thought, expertly crafted and clear to
 its meaning.  You have helped crystalize in my mind the words to express a
 nagging "what's wrong with this picture" feeling as I followed this thread.  I
 couldn't understand why Hawk was castigated for simply expressing ideas.

Jim Norman

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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Om

Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation - H.H.

[Sno0wl]

 -Caveat Lector-

On 14 Jan 99, , Hawk wrote:

  -Caveat Lector-

 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

   -Caveat Lector-
 
  Howdy Hypocrite,

 Good morning... Having a nice day?

  Whatsa matter, ain't got time to reply to my queries?

 I haven't seen any Is it something you sent today?

  So, pray tell, what are the "proper hermaneutical procedures"? Are they
  consistent?

 "Hermaneutics" is the art or science of "interpretation" primarily of written
 documents, and is usually applied to biblical interpretation.  However, the
 "rules" are common in literature and historical/archealogical fields, and are not
 restricted to bible study.  Check this site:
 http://www.greatnorthern.net/~ken/herm.html

Congratulations, Hawk!

You have made it to my Filter-Delete list.

I have absolutely no idea what you are doing here. I have absolutely no idea what
you're trying to say to people on this list that has any value.. And until something
convinces me otherwise, I want to save the bandwith.

IMO, Kris is making a mistake trying to "argue" with you. I'm sorry to see that. You
are clearly a no-win kinda guy.

Enjoy your Mercedes. Have a nice day.





sno0wl

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation - H.H.

[Hawk]

 -Caveat Lector-

Sno0wl wrote:

 Congratulations, Hawk!

 You have made it to my Filter-Delete list.

Good.

 I have absolutely no idea what you are doing here.

You also apparently have no idea what YOU are doing here.

 I have absolutely no idea what you're trying to say to people on this list that has
 any value..

I wouldn't think that you would.

 And until something convinces me otherwise, I want to save the bandwith.

Good.

 IMO, Kris is making a mistake trying to "argue" with you. I'm sorry to see that. You
 are clearly a no-win kinda guy.

I hadn't noticed...

 Enjoy your Mercedes. Have a nice day.

I will... or maybe the Cadillac... Gee If I were to get rid of the Cadillac, would
it materialize in some African's front yard?

Hawk

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation - H.H.

[E Mael]

 -Caveat Lector-

[EMAIL PROTECTED],Internet writes:
I understand, some persons are simply unable to bear the discomfort that
can result from exposure to the ideas of others, and are especially
confounded when those ideas directly challenge their own world view.  It
is
probably better that you filter, rather than overextend.

Barb


maybe you and squawk ought to start your own list, then you could expose
each other to the truth and logic of your ideas. and you would not be
lonely because you would have each other.

grinnin' dis time,
chris

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
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Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation - H.H.

[Carlene M. Wojahn]

 -Caveat Lector-

YnrChyldzWyld wrote:

  -Caveat Lector-

 On Fri, 15 Jan 1999, Sno0wl wrote:
 I would say that this list is in deep trouble---again.
 

Since you said new, and I believe I am the newest,  it appears that you are
talking about me.  I would say it is because of name calling, I do want to learn if
we can get back to the points at hand.




 Didn't we go through all this already with the guys who thought some Nazis were
 "nice."  Now we're doing it with some other guys who think some slavery is okay?

I never said it was okay..try to relate to the past.  Can we condemn those, the
society for different mores.  It was not necessarily wrong at that time.

Carlene
(trying to get back onto the topic...just watch..for name calling)


 and who are doubletalking about racism?

 I am not talking about racism, and I am not a racist, .  Please show me a
 statement that show that I am racistnope I don't think so.  (Thinking about
 conversations I have had with my family...they  defintiely know that I am not.
 However, I will point out things, that things that are acceptable for society..and
 right for that society..at that time, can not be judged by today.

 I hope other 'old timers' on this list also notice a distinct similarity,


Right !! Let us get back to the topic..at hand.

 not only between this new crop and the old neonazi group, but also a
 strange similarity amongst the postings of the 'new' pro-slavery
 'crowd'...almost as if it were the same person talking...   ;-)

 Wha's goin' on here? I haven't got the time to waste.

Yeah right !! Huh !! Oh, ok now I am a neo-nazi ? Yeah right, far from it.  If you
want details on my beliefs let me know.

 Carlene


DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
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screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation - H.H.

[Carlene M. Wojahn]

 -Caveat Lector-

  Kris is merely calling the kettle black and asking him to
 answer his legitimate questions.
 Thank you.


With name calling ??
Oh !!! Ok...but then ...I am confusedhe did not want any talk about the Bible,
and name calling on the listbut there is a discussion going on...oh never
mind.but thanks...for your information.

Carlene

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation - H.H.

[Carlene M. Wojahn]

 -Caveat Lector-

"Carlene M. Wojahn" wrote:

  -Caveat Lector-

   Kris is merely calling the kettle black and asking him to
  answer his legitimate questions.
  Thank you.
 

 With name calling ??
 Oh !!! Ok...but then ...I am confusedhe did not want any talk about the Bible,
 and name calling on the listbut there is a discussion going on...oh never
 mind.but thanks...for your information.

 Carlene


Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation - H.H.

[Hawk]

 -Caveat Lector-

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Carlene, you need to realize something.  RoadsEnd, otherwise known as Kris
 Milligan IS THE LIST OWNER and chief moderator/editor, therefore he can do
 anything he wants.  Additionally do you think he is going to sit idly by while
 people make ridiculous statements in support of slavery using the Bible for
 justification?

You, Sir, are an ignorant son-of-a-bitch... I issue the same challenge to you that
I issued to dumb-ass... You show me ONE statement I made "in support of slavery."
Then, while you're at it, show me ONE biblical passage that condemns slavery.  You
cannot do it, and yet you add your stupid remarks to those of Kris... I keep
asking him, and now I challenge you... Show me just one biblical passage that says
slavery is immoral... AND show me just one place where I have supported slavery or
said I was advocate slavery.

 Kris is merely calling the kettle black and asking him to answer his legitimate
 questions.

Damn! You're stupid!  What Kris has been doing, and what you are applauding is
dumb-ass Kris's continually calling me a hypocrite and a liar, but never ONCE
producing evidence of a lie or any inconsistency with what I say and what I
practice.  On the other hand, I have patiently answere EVERY question the dumb-ass
has asked... Take up the challenge... show me otherwise.

Hawk

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
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screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

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Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation - H.H.

[Hawk]

 -Caveat Lector-

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  I thought this issue was satisfactorily addressed, why is it that you are
 having a hard time with it?  Calling someone a hypocrite when they are one is
 not name calling it is merely telling it like it is.

The issue has not been addressed AT ALL, much less "satisfactorily."  Calling
someone a hypocrite WITHOUT A SHRED OF EVIDENCE is nothing by juvenile
name-calling and hasn't a damn thing to do with 'telling it like it is.'
However, I'm glad you jumped in here Teo10 or whatever... YOU point out the
inconsistency between what I say and what I do... Ball's in your court... jump on
it..

 Discussion of the Bible WHEN IT IS USED TO PROSELYTIZE, OR ARGUE BELIEFS, AND OR
 FAITH IS NOT APPROPRIATE FOR THIS LIST.

Then maybe you should remind your pal Kris of this rule... I certainly have not
violated it.. If so, show me where I used the bible to proseliytize... nor have I
urged anyone to believe it.. What I said was that calling something a "sin"
requires a bit more than mere personal opinion, and that the Southern people in
the mid 1800's looked to the bible as their source for determining right and
wrong.. If that isn't a fact, then YOU produce evidence to the contrary.. This is
beginning to sound like a broken record...

 Using the Bible in arguing CONSPIRACY THEORY is acceptable, or to try and
 support ideas that are related to conspiracy theory.

Have you reminded Kris of this rule?  Where is this rule posted?  Did you make it
up just now?

 You want to argue religious conspiracy, like how Paul, formerly known as Saul,
 becomes the chief proponent of "Christianity" and an Apostle when he never met
 the Lord, and worked so much evil against the nascent church, that is okay.
 You want to argue how Paul's writing contradict those of Jesus on a number of
 points, or perhaps how he seemed to have many friends in Rome and may not have
 suffered as he would have everyone believe, that is okay too.  Arguments that
 point out Paul's reliance upon the Mystery religions, such as Mithras and
 Attis worship for the main forms of religious expression in "Christianity"
 would also be acceptable.

Stupid, but anything goes...

 These are only examples of course, and many others would also have equal
 validity as things that might require the Bible to support the position.  No
 proselytizing is allowed, so questions of faith and belief are not acceptable.

blah, blah, blah give me a break!

 The reason that Kris is going into the Bible himself is that he is trying to
 illustrate the hypocrisy of Hawk in his statements regarding slavery.

And, I might add, he's doing a piss poor job... He hasn't found a singe passage or
verse ... and neither will you... Prove me wrong.

hawk

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Om

Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation - H.H.

[RoadsEnd]

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 1/15/99 9:20:47 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  -Caveat Lector-

 My, my getting testy aren't we.

 In a message dated 1/14/99 11:58:24 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
   -Caveat Lector-
 
  Gee, hypocrite hawk, how come we are not still doing this today? Taking
 slaves in warfare? I mean the Bible says we can; sez H. Hawk.
 
 We, who?  I'm not, for one reason, because I'm not fighting any wars at
this
 time... Maybe later.
 =
 Well, let us see, hawk didn't answer this question. Just some 'cute' words.
 =

I told you why "we" are not taking slaves in warfare.. One reason is because
I
am
not engaged in any applicable warfare in which slaves might be taken..
Another
reason is, as I have said many times, I do not want any slaves.  If by "we"
you
mean the United States, I cannot answer for the govm't... I could only
presume
that they would rather kill people than take slaves.  It doesn't mean that
they
necessarily have an aversion to slavery... and in fact (to keep this
topical),
I
venture there are plans (conspiracies) in the pot right now to enslave
people.
=
Again a 'cute' answer, while evaded any real answer. I submitt that 'we' as a
nation do not take slaves is because it is Wrong and can't be sold under even
wuth some muddle-headed 'religious doctrine'. Not because our government
wishes to kill humans instead of taking slaves -a truly ignorant answer.
Conspiracies to decieve people and to 'enslave' them to political and
technocratic pogroms is different than the institution of humans OWNING other
humans.
=

  So a slave has his personal sovereignty?  I would submit that his
personal
  sovereignty has been stolen. You just continue to show yourself to be an
  ignorant hypocrite.
 
 And you continue to show yourself the equivalent of a gradeschool fool...
I
 think whatever you are doing, you are needed somewhere as the village
idiot.
 =
 Again, hawk has not answered any question or dealt with the issue at hand
but
 has resorted to name calling and more 'cute' answers. I submit again, does
a
 slave have personal sovereignty?
 =

I do not know the definition of words or phrases you concoct.  If by
"personal"
you mean "as an individual" and "sovereignty" you mean absolute control over
his
affairs, then my answer is "No, a slave does not have personal sovereignty."
In
fact, neither do non-slaves.
=
Ok, who took the personal sovereinty from the slave? Does this not constitute
theft?
Again you try and change the subject by commiserating on the political
realities of today.
=

  Did Jesus have long hair?
 
 I don't know...
 =
 Hawk can you please tell me what rules are valid in the Old Testament and
 which aren't?
 =

Which "rules" are you asking about?  I don't know how you are using the word,
"valid."  If you mean do the "laws" of Leviticus have jurisdiction over
Christians, the answer is "no."  If, for instance, you mean "The 10
Commandments,"
the answer is "None of them."  and I base that on, among other passages,
Romans
7.  There are many passages (particularly entire book of Galatians, and much
of
Ephesians) that teach specifically, "If you wish to apply any portion of the
law
upon yourself as an obligation, then you must apply all of it.  It is a
package
deal."  However for you, as a Celtic Bhuddist, whatever in the hell that is,
it
ALL applies to you, according to my understanding of New Testament doctrine
on
this matter.
=
So if none of the above rules apply, why did you hypocritically quote certain
'rules' from Numbers to back-up your assertion that slavery isn't a wrong
action.
I have never claimed to be a Celtic Buddhist.
So what are the rules, Pope Hawk? And how come you favour the words of
saul/paul over the words of Jesus the Nazerite AKA The Christ?

Do you really enjoy showing the world your hypocrisy and ignorance? There is
some entertainment value, though.
=
Hawk
-
Aloha, He'Ping,
Om, Shalom, Salaam.
Em Hotep, Peace Be,
Omnia Bona Bonis,
All My Relations.
Adieu, Adios, Aloha.
Amen.
Roads End
Kris

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation - H.H.

[Carlene M. Wojahn]

 -Caveat Lector-

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  -Caveat Lector-


 Well now, calling someone a hypocrite is not name-calling, It is stating a
 fact.  You seem to inordiantely involved in this debate. Any particular
 reason?

No...except the name calling ends up in my mailbox..I do enjoy your other
post, which you write with foresight and thought, so I start reading these name
calling ones...which is aggravating, because it lessens my opinion of you in a
way.  I mean right after reading a great post of yours, which I enjoyed
immensely...you lower yourself to this.IMHO

 If you think that it is proper to use the Lord's name in vain with a
 curse whilst making my opinion again you are sadly mistaken.

That was an example...and I forgot to blank out another letter,,,and besides
that I did not type it all out nor did I use a capital G which would denote our
God.

 And as for your syntax advice,  . . . . Many times my remarks have been followed
 by MHO, which stands for my humble opinion.

NOT LATELY

  Hawk is a classic hypocrite.  There is much written proof that Hawk is
 a hypocrite and truly don't feel that he has anything in mind but disruption
 of this list. But ya have to understand, we been disrupted by eruditer
 hypocrites than hawk.

 Why are you defending HawK's hypocrisy with your innanities about name-calling
 and such?

I am not defending Hawk if you would notice...I should you how to use correct
syntax if you so wanted to continue doing this..this way no one gets into any
legal trouble.

We have gotten off on a tangent here...with this name calling and would like to
see your intelligent comments, which I so enjoy, with this topic and get back
discussing facts.

 Oh and thanks for calling me stupid. Do you have documentation?

 I was giving examples...in all of my post I was calling anyone anything.

Like I said after posting an example "After reading this thought I would let
you know that, that was only an example..Iamnot calling Hawk.
this name.Kris," AND VICE A VERSA.

 However now that I think of it..even though I did  not call you stupid ...I
 said "it seems that you  are acting quite stupid, to be doing this to your list.
 I knowyou payfor it, but you have to set standards..well you have but your
 not following them."  A list owner usually set the tone of the list, at least in
 my observations.

Like I said before, I do enjoy reading some of your other posts, but for some
reason you don't seem to use this logic when addressing Hawk. I don't know why.

 Carlene






  it
 
 seems that you  are acting quite stupid, to be doing this to your list. I
 know
 you pay
 
 for it, but you have to set standards..well you have but your not following
 them."
 
 
 
  Anyhow you catch the drift you got to use a word like seems, appears, looks
 like,
 or I
 
 think can help you call names in a more efficient manner...
 
 
 
  OkI will help Hawk out here..with his response to ignorant..when he
 uses
 the word
 
  stupid.  He should be saying something like this..it seems...I think..in my
 opinion
 you
 
  are stupid because you are calling me names and not proving a G##-Dam%
 thing.
  Well
 
  that is what he could say if he uses those words.
 
 
 
 -
 Aloha, He'Ping,
 Om, Shalom, Salaam.
 Em Hotep, Peace Be,
 Omnia Bona Bonis,
 All My Relations.
 Adieu, Adios, Aloha.
 Amen.
 Roads End
 Kris

 DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
 ==
 CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
 screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
 and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
 frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
 spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
 gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
 be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
 nazi's need not apply.

 Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.
 
 Archives Available at:
 http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

 http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
 
 To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
 SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
 SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Om

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of 

Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation - H.H.

[Hawk]

 -Caveat Lector-

Alamaine Ratliff wrote:

  -Caveat Lector-

 Okay, I'll bite.  Biblical documentation (courtesy NIV) at

 Matt 6 (esp 6:5) {long, I won't reproduce -- especially because of the
 written word}

Don't see any connection to slavery.

 John 8:31ff:  "To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold
 to my teaching, you are really my disciples.  Then you will know the truth,
 and the truth will set you free."  They answered him, "We are Abraham's
 descendants and have never been slaves on anyone.  How can you say we shall
 be set free?"

Apparently these fellows had never been slaves, and said so.. They also apparently
"missed the point," that Jesus wasn't talking about literal/physical slavery..
which you also seem to have missed.

 Acts 7:6ff:  "G*d spoke to him {Abraham} in this way: 'Your descendants
 will be strangers in a country not their own, and they will be enslaved and
 mistreated four hundred years.  But I will punish the nation they serve as
 slaves,' G*d said, 'and afterward they will come out of that country and
 worship me in this place.'  Then he gave Abraham the convenant of
 circumcision.  And Abraham became the father of Isaac and circumcised him
 eight days after his birth.  Later Isaac became the father of Jacob, and
 Jacob became the father of the twelve patriarchs."

 I stumbled onto the above after looking through my Strong's Exhaustive
 Concordance of the Bible.  There's not a bunch on "slave" or "slavery" but
 more on "bondage" which translates back to "slavery" in the NIV.  The
 Matthew part was what I originally intended to offer but the rest just came
 along.

But, the passage you quoted said nothing about it being "evil" or "wrong" for the
Hebrews to be held in bondage.  It merely said that they WOULD be, and that Egypt
WOULD be punished, which it was... But the punishment was not because the Hebrews
were slaves there, rather because Pharoah did not release them when God told him
to... It was his (1) unreasonable harshness to the Hebrew slaves, and (2) his
refusal to let them go when directed -- Read it in context and this becomes
clear.  There was a time (read the part about Joseph) when God BLESSED Egypt
because of Pharaoh's relationship (master over slave) with Joseph.

 I really lean more toward Celtic Buddhism so these forays into Xtian
 theological texts is rather illuminating.

That's good... Since some of these folks are offended by biblical texts, I would
be very glad to discuss the above passages, or any others, with you... Could be my
"take" on them is 100% wrong... but maybe I am not wrong at all.  You be the
judge, after having an opportunity to study the passages using proper
hermaneutical procedures.  In looking through your concordance, don't look for
"slave" but rather "servant" which IS a slave unless it says "hired" servant.

Hawk

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation - H.H.

[Carlene M. Wojahn]

 -Caveat Lector-

I don't believe this sh++ !  It is so juvenile, I don't know much about this
person, but no one should be badgered like this, is this acceptable on this list
?  If so I suppose I could do this toowhere are you coming from...take it
private.(the only reason my private post got sent to the list, is because I was an
oversight, received some bad news and my concentration was not there)

But this is a deliberate attempt to disrupt this list, which I have been accused
of.

Carlene

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  -Caveat Lector-

 Howdy Hypocrite,

 Whatsa matter, ain't got time to reply to my queries?

 So, pray tell, what are the "proper hermaneutical procedures"? Are they
 consistent?

 Hypocrite Hawk sez:

 "But, the passage you quoted said nothing about it being "evil" or "wrong" for
 the
 Hebrews to be held in bondage."

 So let, us review, unless Hypocrite Hawk, can determine through "proper
 hermaneutical procedures" if the Bible says an action is 'evil' or 'wrong'.

 Do you have a list of "evil" or "wrong", oh, old, wise one?

 I am not offended by Biblical texts, but by hypocrites that abuse them.

 Oh, Hypocrite, you didn't answer my query about your intel secret ops? Cat got
 your tongue?

 What a . . . chauvanistic goober.

 Om
 k

 In a message dated 1/13/99 10:47:36 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 -Caveat Lector-
 
 Alamaine Ratliff wrote:
 
   -Caveat Lector-
 
  Okay, I'll bite.  Biblical documentation (courtesy NIV) at
 
  Matt 6 (esp 6:5) {long, I won't reproduce -- especially because of the
  written word}
 
 Don't see any connection to slavery.
 
  John 8:31ff:  "To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold
  to my teaching, you are really my disciples.  Then you will know the truth,
  and the truth will set you free."  They answered him, "We are Abraham's
  descendants and have never been slaves on anyone.  How can you say we shall
  be set free?"
 
 Apparently these fellows had never been slaves, and said so.. They also
 apparently
 "missed the point," that Jesus wasn't talking about literal/physical
 slavery..
 which you also seem to have missed.
 
  Acts 7:6ff:  "G*d spoke to him {Abraham} in this way: 'Your descendants
  will be strangers in a country not their own, and they will be enslaved and
  mistreated four hundred years.  But I will punish the nation they serve as
  slaves,' G*d said, 'and afterward they will come out of that country and
  worship me in this place.'  Then he gave Abraham the convenant of
  circumcision.  And Abraham became the father of Isaac and circumcised him
  eight days after his birth.  Later Isaac became the father of Jacob, and
  Jacob became the father of the twelve patriarchs."
 
  I stumbled onto the above after looking through my Strong's Exhaustive
  Concordance of the Bible.  There's not a bunch on "slave" or "slavery" but
  more on "bondage" which translates back to "slavery" in the NIV.  The
  Matthew part was what I originally intended to offer but the rest just came
  along.
 
 But, the passage you quoted said nothing about it being "evil" or "wrong" for
 the
 Hebrews to be held in bondage.  It merely said that they WOULD be, and that
 Egypt
 WOULD be punished, which it was... But the punishment was not because the
 Hebrews
 were slaves there, rather because Pharoah did not release them when God told
 him
 to... It was his (1) unreasonable harshness to the Hebrew slaves, and (2) his
 refusal to let them go when directed -- Read it in context and this becomes
 clear.  There was a time (read the part about Joseph) when God BLESSED Egypt
 because of Pharaoh's relationship (master over slave) with Joseph.
 
  I really lean more toward Celtic Buddhism so these forays into Xtian
  theological texts is rather illuminating.
 
 That's good... Since some of these folks are offended by biblical texts, I
 would
 be very glad to discuss the above passages, or any others, with you... Could
 be
 my
 "take" on them is 100% wrong... but maybe I am not wrong at all.  You be the
 judge, after having an opportunity to study the passages using proper
 hermaneutical procedures.  In looking through your concordance, don't look
 for
 "slave" but rather "servant" which IS a slave unless it says "hired" servant.
 
 Hawk
 -
 Aloha, He'Ping,
 Om, Shalom, Salaam.
 Em Hotep, Peace Be,
 Omnia Bona Bonis,
 All My Relations.
 Adieu, Adios, Aloha.
 Amen.
 Roads End
 Kris

 DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
 ==
 CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
 screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
 and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
 frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
 spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
 gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
 be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial 

Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation - H.H.

[Hawk]

 -Caveat Lector-

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  -Caveat Lector-

 Howdy Hypocrite,

Good morning... Having a nice day?

 Whatsa matter, ain't got time to reply to my queries?

I haven't seen any Is it something you sent today?

 So, pray tell, what are the "proper hermaneutical procedures"? Are they
 consistent?

"Hermaneutics" is the art or science of "interpretation" primarily of written
documents, and is usually applied to biblical interpretation.  However, the
"rules" are common in literature and historical/archealogical fields, and are not
restricted to bible study.  Check this site:
http://www.greatnorthern.net/~ken/herm.html

There are books on the subject, and quite a few "hits" can be found using the
"Hotbot" search engine.  Here are some general principles:

Hermaneutics- Rules for Correct Biblical interpretation


1. TAKE THE WORDS IN THEIR USUAL AND ORDINARY SENSE.

   A. as the people to whom they were written would have understood
   B. NOT necessarily literal
   C. CAREFULLY note the response of the hearers ( do they understand or not )
 [ only go as far as you need to in the rules ]


2. TAKE THE WORDS IN THE SENSE THAT THE PHRASE INDICATES (short context)

  How is the phrase using this word? [in the Original language] ( verb, noun,
etc.) - "faith" could mean 'the act of believing' or 'the elements of believe'(as
in statement of faith) or 'the whole religion itself' (as in the Christian faith).
ex.- an (anarthrous noun); nn (noun); repro (relative pronoun)

3. TAKE THE WORDS IN CONTEXT ( long context )
   this is sometimes referred to as ' reading around the text' ( several verses
before and after the target text )

4. CONSIDER THE OBJECT OR DESIGN OF THE PASSAGE

   A. General purpose of the writer ( stated or un-stated )
   B. Specific purpose of the writer ( stated or un-stated )

5. CONSULT PARALLEL PASSAGES (P.P.) - direct quotes (of this or others)

   A. is it a parallel?
   B. is it an inexact parallel?

6. RECOGNIZE PARALLEL EXCLUSIONS

   A. note any absence of your target text in any other related passages
   B. note any absence of your target text in any parallel passages

 Hypocrite Hawk sez:

 "But, the passage you quoted said nothing about it being "evil" or "wrong" for
 the Hebrews to be held in bondage."

 So let, us review, unless Hypocrite Hawk, can determine through "proper
 hermaneutical procedures" if the Bible says an action is 'evil' or 'wrong'.

The above is somewhat muddled, but presumably, anyone following the principles of
hermaneutics should be able to arrive at a reasonably accurate understanding of
written documents... Otherwise, why do automobiles come with "Owner's Manuals?"
On the other hand, it could be that the document's author was unable to clearly
state what he was trying to say, or that his ideas were inconsistent, and in such
cases, it is more difficult, or sometimes impossible to determine the meaning --
For instance, "How to program your VCR" written by some Korean guy who is
unfamiliar with English... In which case, you would probably have to resort to the
original language (the reason for having study tools such as "Vines Expository
Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words.")

 Do you have a list of "evil" or "wrong", oh, old, wise one?

Certainly... however I would not call it an "exhaustive list."  Some examples
are:  Do not steal, do not commit murder, do not commit adultary, etc.

 I am not offended by Biblical texts, but by hypocrites that abuse them.

I feel the same way about it.  I do not approve of hypocrisy.

 Oh, Hypocrite, you didn't answer my query about your intel secret ops? Cat got
 your tongue?

I don't think I saw any query about intel secret ops.  But even if I had, I don't
know anything at all about the subject of intel secret ops, and don't even know
what it means.

 What a . . . chauvanistic goober.

Well, maybe so... I may be one of those, since I don't even know what it is.  I
think I am chauvanistic about some issues As for being a goober, I think that
is slang (or African) for "peanut," and I am fairly certain that I am not of that
species.

However, I do know what a hypocrite is, and I do not think I am one of those.  I
have asked you numerous times to provide evidence of my hypocrisy, and you have
steadfastly refused to do so.  I have decided that you have no such evidence,
based on your reluctance or inability to produce it.

Hawk

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to 

Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation - H.H.

[RoadsEnd]

 -Caveat Lector-

Lord, have mercy, lady.

Shall I really go through your noise, what is your point?

[1]
Hawk is offering classic apologist argumentation. So are you by the way.

So there were black slave owners. That does does not mean slavery is/was
wrong? And your argumenyt is racist.

[2]
Oh, Carlene, so what is apropriate, let some apologist tell lies backed up by
his own personal interpretations of scripture?

[3]
How noble and hypocrotical

[4]
So you want to ba a slave? Again your answers are racist.

[5]
Weren't we benevolent. We did it for their own good. Again, you want to be a
slave?

[6]
Nice, massa,  . . . I guess if ya get raped nicely, It's OK.

[7] I am sure the courage the gentleman showd was 'instilled' into him by the
institution of slavery. You are getting close to being a gooberette.

[8] Again, ya want to be a slave?

[9] Invoking, Lincoln for what reason?

[10] Well, then that makes it right. . .

[11] Standing up for man and god.

[12] Yes slavery was wrong then and now.  Options - lick the boot or stand
tall

[13] Hawk is a hypocrite for espousing supernatural authority for the
institution of slavery for chauvanistic reason, while stating that he wouldn't
want to be a slaveholder or slave, whilst particpating in said supernaturals'
'universe'.

[14] "separate but equal" was unconstitutional and void 'ab intio'.

[15] Read it. Show me . . .

[16] The nature of the day is not legality. Separate but equal was a sham and
unconstitutional.

In a message dated 1/13/99 2:17:25 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 -Caveat Lector-

 An apologist for slavery and . . . You may think what you want, but do you
  realize your rationalzations are inhumane.

[1]"""No...I don't see him apologizing...and like I noted in a previous
post...there were black slave owers and there were white slaves as well...but
that
tends to be over looked...look at my other post for references in regard to
this.

h

 do not personally approve of slavery.  Seems you would finally get that
 through your head.

I don't either, and I have the sense to realize that was acceptable than is
not
necessarily so nowand things that are acceptable now will not be
acceptable
in
the future.  You have different societies and different mores...will find a
reference if you really need oneand you can not justify or condemn a
society..the past on the mores and beliefs of the now.

 Have you ever heard of the word hypocrite?

[2]"""Sorry to get in the middle here..but this post...oh well...did you
ever
hear of the term.never mind...not appropriate on the list.



 I do not say that "owning a human being is a humane idea" -- but neither is
it
 an inhumane act.

  personally do not wish to own a slave nor be a slave.
 -


 Gosh, again, how noble. Gee, you wouldn't wish to be a slave.

[3]Didn't this gentleman also say he did not want to own slaves as well,

 Which I will stand-up again, and again and say  -you are wrong.
 [4]I am sorry don't understand what he is wrong about.
 ===
Blacks are deprived ?
 http://memory.loc.gov/
 gi-
bin/query/D?wpa:8:./temp/~ammem_DgOA::@@@mdb=cwar,fsaall,vv,detr,wtc,dag,gotts
cho,horyd,nfor,papr,wpa,aap,bdsbib,nawbib,consrvbib,varstg,presp,cowellbib,cal
bkbib,suffrg,pan,gmd,mcc,toddbib,mgw,hlaw,bbpix,award97,ncr,musdibib,alad,lhbu
mbib,hh,bbcards,mussm,rbpebib,raelbib

 http://e.usia.gov/education/amstudy/hislink.htm

[5]Do you really know what there options were ?  If they stayed in Africa
what
do
you think would of happened ??  Many times being a slave was safer than other
alternatives at the time.

[6]Look at the following article and see what is all providedI know
your mind
is set one way, but look at the other side of the coin.

Here is an article you might enjoy...and it is documentated.

"""Atlanta Journal and Constitution,  Thurs. Nov. 26,
1998
 SecD-14

 "Slaves' descendants honor slavemaster of ancestors"

 "Defying political correctness, decendants of Panola County, Texas,
slaves are  dedicating a historical marker to the slaveholder who brought
their
families  here. .The marker will be dedicated to Spearman "Major" Holland
who brought  slaves to East Texas in the 1840's.


"Holland Quarters, a black community four miles north of Carthage in
Panola County on land once used as a plantation. has been home to
generations
descended from Holland's slaves. . Research has shown that Holland was
know
for
 generosity toward his slaves... According to Barbara Jefferson-Bonner, a
Panola
County historian.  She stated "He was a great guy. He cared for his slaves
in
a
unique kind of way.
When Spearman left here, hye left his thousands of acres to slaves, who were
 ancestors of mine." .During the Civil War, Spearman served as a captain
in
the Texas
State Troops, 4th Brigade. After the war he moved away and left the land to
the
 slaves...His brother was known to have bought slaves and then free
them.


[7]"" 

Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation - H.H.

[Hawk]

 -Caveat Lector-

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  -Caveat Lector-

 In a message dated 1/14/99 9:03:09 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Do not steal

  How about stealing a humans' sovereignity

That's a "made up" crime and a "made up" sin... something you came up with on your
own, apparently... The bible quite clearly, in many passages, indicates that
capturing a person from another country is one of the means of obtaining
slaves and it does not condemn the act as evil or sinful.

The origin of the term "slave" is traced to the German sklave, meaning a captive
of the Slavonic race who had been forced into servitude (compare Slav)

Procuring of slaves:   There are eight previously-listed methods, and now (9)
Capture in war.-- Thousands of men, women and children were taken in war as
captives and reduced, sometimes, to most menial slavery. Such slavery, however,
was more humane than wholesale butchery according to the customs of earlier times
Num 31:7-35.   The two principal sources of slave supply were poverty in peace
and plunder in war.

Read particularly Numbers 31:25 - 29.

.Num 31:25-30
25 Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying,
26 "You and Eleazar the priest and the heads of the fathers' {households} of the
congregation, take a count of the booty that was captured, both of man and of
animal;
27 and divide the booty between the warriors who went out to battle and all the
congregation.
28 "And levy a tax for the LORD from the men of war who went out to battle, one in
five hundred of the persons and of the cattle and of the donkeys and of the sheep;

29 take it from their half and give it to Eleazar the priest, as an offering to
the LORD.
30 "And from the sons of Israel's half, you shall take one drawn out of every
fifty of the persons, of the cattle, of the donkeys and of the sheep, from all the
animals, and give them to the Levites who keep charge of the tabernacle of the
LORD."
(NAS)

Hawk

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

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Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation - H.H.

[Hawk]

 -Caveat Lector-

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  -Caveat Lector-

 Short memory, hawk?

I am sometimes afflicted with short memory... What are specifically addressing?

 hawk sez:

  I was in the USAF for almost seven years as a professional military officer
 and aviator. During three of those years, I was involved in what later became
 known as the "Delta Force," but which then was "Blue Triangle" and a couple of
 other secretive names. As such, I engaged in numerous "informal" wars,
 insurrections, and general mayhem for the govm't of the U.S. -- often not even
 allowed to wear the uniform (we called these "T-shirt and blue-jean missions).
 I was also in VietNam quite a bit, before the conflict became a "war." In all
 of those missions, we were directly involved on the "wrong" side, or were
 sticking our noses into other peoples' affairs, generally helping some
 dictatorial govm't obtain or maintain its harsh control over the populace.
 Then, for three more years, I was directly involved in intelligence gathering
 operations. For three years, every morning, I saw "raw intelligence" --
 information that had not been "laundered" for public consumption. Not one time
 -- and I mean not even ONCE -- did the truth about what was going on reach the
 average American. We were lied to on a continual basis, and are being lied to
 at the present time. I was trained in the process of developing "cover
 stories" about things that happened, . . .

 Then dufus asked:

  Oh, Hypocrite, you didn't answer my query about your intel secret ops? Cat
 got  your tongue?

 Hawk said:  I don't think I saw any query about intel secret ops.

OK... I still don't know what questions or query you asked about "intel secret
ops."  As for my response that I didn't know what you were talking about, not one
time, in all my USAF career was what I did called "intel secret ops."  Its a
phrase you made up, so far as I know.  You seem to "make up" quite a lot of stuff.

Now, just what was it you wanted to know concerning what YOU call "intel secret
ops"?

Hawk

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Om

Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation - H.H.

[RoadsEnd]

 -Caveat Lector-

You sir are still a hypocrite and you are not a follower of Jesus AKA The
Christ.

Who wrote Corinthians?
Paul/Saul the persecuter and Roman stooge.

Do unto others as you would have them to do you.

What day do you keep as the sabbath?

In a message dated 1/14/99 11:16:27 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

By the way, I looked up the bible passage that supports the position that
slavery
is not evil, but never-the-less, if a person can be free, it is a preferable
status.


1 Cor 7:19-21
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but {what matters
is}
the keeping of the commandments of God.
20 Let each man remain in that condition in which he was called.
21 Were you called while a slave? Do not worry about it; but if you are able
also
to become free, rather do that.
(NAS)

Now, my position has been clearly stated a number of times, that slavery is
not
declared "evil" or "sinful" in the Bible.. I have also stated that I would
NOT
want to be a slave... I think verse 21, above, supports that position.  Thus,
adhering to that position does not qualify me for the vaunted title of
"Hypocrite"
...
-
Aloha, He'Ping,
Om, Shalom, Salaam.
Em Hotep, Peace Be,
Omnia Bona Bonis,
All My Relations.
Adieu, Adios, Aloha.
Amen.
Roads End
Kris

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Om

Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation - H.H.

[RoadsEnd]

 -Caveat Lector-

 Gee, You are pretty crafty with your answers there. Gosh , I just don't know
but like I say you are a hypocrite coward still in the pocket of a corrupt
government and military.

Ignorant also.

Om
K

In a message dated 1/14/99 11:35:02 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  -Caveat Lector-

 Short memory, hawk?

I am sometimes afflicted with short memory... What are specifically
addressing?

 hawk sez:

  I was in the USAF for almost seven years as a professional military
officer
 and aviator. During three of those years, I was involved in what later
became
 known as the "Delta Force," but which then was "Blue Triangle" and a couple
of
 other secretive names. As such, I engaged in numerous "informal" wars,
 insurrections, and general mayhem for the govm't of the U.S. -- often not
even
 allowed to wear the uniform (we called these "T-shirt and blue-jean
missions).
 I was also in VietNam quite a bit, before the conflict became a "war." In
all
 of those missions, we were directly involved on the "wrong" side, or were
 sticking our noses into other peoples' affairs, generally helping some
 dictatorial govm't obtain or maintain its harsh control over the populace.
 Then, for three more years, I was directly involved in intelligence
gathering
 operations. For three years, every morning, I saw "raw intelligence" --
 information that had not been "laundered" for public consumption. Not one
time
 -- and I mean not even ONCE -- did the truth about what was going on reach
the
 average American. We were lied to on a continual basis, and are being lied
to
 at the present time. I was trained in the process of developing "cover
 stories" about things that happened, . . .

 Then dufus asked:

  Oh, Hypocrite, you didn't answer my query about your intel secret ops?
Cat
 got  your tongue?

 Hawk said:  I don't think I saw any query about intel secret ops.

OK... I still don't know what questions or query you asked about "intel
secret
ops."  As for my response that I didn't know what you were talking about, not
one
time, in all my USAF career was what I did called "intel secret ops."  Its a
phrase you made up, so far as I know.  You seem to "make up" quite a lot of
stuff.

Now, just what was it you wanted to know concerning what YOU call "intel
secret
ops"?

Hawk

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om

Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation - H.H.

[RoadsEnd]

 -Caveat Lector-

In a message dated 1/12/99 7:24:55 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



  -Caveat Lector-



 An apologist for slavery and . . . You may think what you want, but do you

 realize your rationalzations are inhumane.



No I don't... As a matter of fact, if you could read (and understand what you

read), I have repeatedly said that I do not advocate the enslavement of
anyone.
I

do not personally approve of slavery.  Seems you would finally get that
through

your head.


Gee, Hawk, thanks for your condescending attitude. I am sure you are ready to
listen.

1. Oh, you don't PERSONALLY approve of slavery. Well, I guess that makes you a
good person(PC) or  do you have someother reason for you letting us know that
you don't PERSONALLY approve of slavery.

Have you ever heard of the word hypocrite?

hyp-o-crite (h p2õ-kr t1) n.
A person given to hypocrisy.

hy-poc-ri-sy (h -pÄk2r -sT) n., pl. hy-poc-ri-sies.
1. The practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not
hold or possess; falseness.
2. An act or instance of such falseness.


from:
A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind9901aL=ctrlD=0O=A
P=67326"CTRL archives -- January 1999, week 1 (#625)/A

Hawk sez:

I do not say that "owning a human being is a humane idea" -- but neither is it
an inhumane act.
-
in-hu-mane ( n1hyá-mEn2) adj.
Lacking pity or compassion.

in-hu-man-i-ty ( n1hyá-man2 -tT) n.,
1. Lack of pity or compassion.
2. An inhuman or cruel act.

a-pol-o-gy (õ-pÄl2õ-jT) n.,
2.a. A formal justification or defense. b. An explanation or excuse.

a-pol-gist n.
1. One who argues in defense of any person or cause.

slav-er-y (slE2võ-rT, slEv2rT) n.,
1. The state of one bound in servitude as the property of a slaveholder or
household.
2.a. The practice of owning slaves. b. A mode of production in which slaves
constitute the principal work force.

ra-tion-al-i-za-tion (rash1õ-nõ-l -zE2shõn) n.
2. An instance of rationalizing.

ra-tion-al-ize (rash2õ-nõ-lhz1) v. r
3. To devise self-satisfying but incorrect reasons for (one's behavior).

from:
A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind9901aL=ctrlD=0O=A
P=67326"CTRL archives -- January 1999, week 1 (#625)/A

Hawk sez:

I personally do not wish to own a slave nor be a slave.
-

Gosh, again, how noble. Gee, you wouldn't wish to be a slave. But by your
vaunted interpretation of scribblings you give PROVIDENTIAL AUTHORITY to the
actions of slaveholding.

Which I will stand-up again, and again and say  -you are wrong.

===


 Your contention that owning people, because of interpretations of
scripture,
is

 a valid human endeavour is ill-founded.



A "valid endeaver?"  Of course its a "valid endeavor."  Murder is a "valid

endeavor," if it accomplishes the perpetrator's goal.  That doesn't make it a

"desirable" activity in which to engage one's self.


So you say that owning humans is a "valid endevor"

val-id (val2 d) adj.
1. Well grounded; just.
2. Producing the desired results; efficacious.
3. Having legal force; effective or binding.
4. Logic. a. Containing premises from which the conclusion may logically be
derived. b. Correctly inferred or deduced from a premise.
5. Archaic. Of sound health; robust. —

en-deav-or (Rn-dRv2õr) n.
1. A conscientious or concerted effort toward an end; an earnest attempt.
2. Purposeful or industrious activity; enterprise.

ear-nest1 (ûr2n st) adj.
1. Marked by or showing deep sincerity or seriousness.
2. Of an important or weighty nature; grave.

Again, you are a hypocrite. In "desirable' to you mean worth doing, advisable
or is it wrong to do?
==


 Slavery is wrong, is known by the fact of the actions of slavery, not by
any

 vaunted scribblings.



Is it "wrong" because YOU say its wrong?  Or because an amendment to the

Constitution says its wrong?  What makes an action "wrong?"  Your bemuddled

"logic" -- if such it could be called -- is "X (and action) is wrong because
the

action of X is wrong."  I fear you'll have to improve before your "argument"
is

convincing to anyone who can string a group of words together and form a
logical

statement.

==
Thanks again for mocking my syntax. I am so sorry that you have a problem
understanding it.

I was paraprhasing some wise words from a wise man. 'By the fruits, ye shall
know the tree"

Slavery is wrong from the actions of slavery. Simple.

Now, some words from "Hypocrite hawk"
from:
A HREF="http://home.ease.lsoft.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind9901aL=ctrlD=0O=A
P=67326"CTRL archives -- January 1999, week 1 (#625)/A
That is merely your opinion, and it does not comport with the Bible. You are
welcome to it, and you are certainly not alone in that opinion. But I base my
criteria on "stronger stuff" than personal opinion.

I would have to reject slavery, 

Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation - H.H.

[Alamaine Ratliff]

 -Caveat Lector-

Okay, I'll bite.  Biblical documentation (courtesy NIV) at

Matt 6 (esp 6:5) {long, I won't reproduce -- especially because of the
written word}

John 8:31ff:  "To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold
to my teaching, you are really my disciples.  Then you will know the truth,
and the truth will set you free."  They answered him, "We are Abraham's
descendants and have never been slaves on anyone.  How can you say we shall
be set free?"

Acts 7:6ff:  "G*d spoke to him {Abraham} in this way: 'Your descendants
will be strangers in a country not their own, and they will be enslaved and
mistreated four hundred years.  But I will punish the nation they serve as
slaves,' G*d said, 'and afterward they will come out of that country and
worship me in this place.'  Then he gave Abraham the convenant of
circumcision.  And Abraham became the father of Isaac and circumcised him
eight days after his birth.  Later Isaac became the father of Jacob, and
Jacob became the father of the twelve patriarchs."

I stumbled onto the above after looking through my Strong's Exhaustive
Concordance of the Bible.  There's not a bunch on "slave" or "slavery" but
more on "bondage" which translates back to "slavery" in the NIV.  The
Matthew part was what I originally intended to offer but the rest just came
along.

I really lean more toward Celtic Buddhism so these forays into Xtian
theological texts is rather illuminating.

AER

The only real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking
new landscapes but in having new eyes. -Marcel Proust
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +

------
: From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
: To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
: Subject: Re: [CTRL] Slave Documentation - H.H.
: Date: Wednesday, January 13, 1999 12:16 PM
:
:  -Caveat Lector-
:
: In a message dated 1/12/99 7:24:55 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
:
: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
: 
:   -Caveat Lector-
: 
:  An apologist for slavery and . . . You may think what you want, but do
you
:  realize your rationalzations are inhumane.
: 
: No I don't... As a matter of fact, if you could read (and understand
what you
: 
: read), I have repeatedly said that I do not advocate the enslavement of
: anyone.
: I
: 
: do not personally approve of slavery.  Seems you would finally get that
: through
: 
: your head.
: 
:
: Gee, Hawk, thanks for your condescending attitude. I am sure you are
ready to
: listen.
:
: 1. Oh, you don't PERSONALLY approve of slavery. Well, I guess that makes
you a
: good person(PC) or  do you have someother reason for you letting us know
that
: you don't PERSONALLY approve of slavery.
:
: Have you ever heard of the word hypocrite?
:
: hyp-o-crite (h p2õ-kr t1) n.
: A person given to hypocrisy.
:
: hy-poc-ri-sy (h -pÄk2r -sT) n., pl. hy-poc-ri-sies.
: 1. The practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does
not
: hold or possess; falseness.
: 2. An act or instance of such falseness.

DECLARATION  DISCLAIMER
==
CTRL is a discussion and informational exchange list. Proselyzting propagandic
screeds are not allowed. Substance—not soapboxing!  These are sordid matters
and 'conspiracy theory', with its many half-truths, misdirections and outright
frauds is used politically  by different groups with major and minor effects
spread throughout the spectrum of time and thought. That being said, CTRL
gives no endorsement to the validity of posts, and always suggests to readers;
be wary of what you read. CTRL gives no credeence to Holocaust denial and
nazi's need not apply.

Let us please be civil and as always, Caveat Lector.

Archives Available at:
http://home.ease.lsoft.com/archives/CTRL.html

http:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/

To subscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SUBSCRIBE CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To UNsubscribe to Conspiracy Theory Research List[CTRL] send email:
SIGNOFF CTRL [to:] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Om