Target-Irish Lee Enfield accuracy problem.
From: nick royall, [EMAIL PROTECTED] I presume it is a No4, in which case the fit of the woodwork around the bedding bolt is critical. You may need to have it epoxy bedded if the wood is warped or shrunken. get a gunsmith to have a look at it, it is not an expensive job. new woodwork is available from Peter Sarony amongst others. Nick Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
Legal-Murderer Used Former Police Firearm
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Picked this up in my local paper, it may have a bearing on the reasons why >the police are now destroying surplus firearms. --snip-- > >It was revealed that the weapon was a Smith and Wesson which had once been >used as a policeman's gun. Strathclyde police had sold it on to a registered >gun dealer and records show it was later destroyed. > >However, it found its way into the underworld and was wrapped in a towel and >used to shoot Wilson at close range. --snip rest-- Steve, & DMB, Interesting here, that the firearm that was used in the crime is pointedly referred to as having been a privately held arm, and note too that the element of police/government involvement is minimized. The sixty four thousand dollar questions are: Is it really worth a rat's arse to know who owned the firearm priorly? What particular piece of forensic evidence can be gleaned from this? Would it have saved anyone's life to know? And, if not that particular pistol, then why not another from elsewhere? Maybe the UK government ought outlaw towels? Now there is an idea which time has come! -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= "Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves." --William Pitt to the House of Commons, 18 November 1783 =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET -- I find it rather ironic that Strathclyde Police licensed the RFD they sold their own gun to, now ACPO are saying that RFDs are not to be trusted, apparently. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
Target-range accident
From: nick royall, [EMAIL PROTECTED] I now have more information on the accident, the person was Keith Haskel, former ambassador to Brazil and member of the Stickledown Club who were partaking of their annual Nov 5th shoot. Other members include the Chaiman of the NRA and Piffa Shroder as president who are both embroiled in the problems of the funding of Bisley Shooting Ground Ltd and other things that meant that Sport England were not prepared to cough up lottery funding for the clay pigeon complex at Bisley. He apparently got cramp and accidentally shot himself in the foot by firing before he was ready to. Unless his intended target was indeed his foot this is a negligent discharge. He was taken to hospital to have the wound cleaned and inspectd where he was interviewed by the police. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
Pol-HO survey of police forces
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Steve wrote: Are you sure this questionnaire is from the Home Office? It sounds more like something that ACPO would dream up. The HO usually leave it to ACPO to do things like this. Anyway, you can still follow the plan I have stated before - write to your local force director of finance, find out how much money they give to ACPO and then see your local councillor and complain. Steve. Steve, This is on Home Office Headed notepaper - definitely HO - NOT ACPO Chris Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
Misc-police corruption
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Then why are you not reporting this and getting their >certs pulled, especially if you are correct about the >"..potentially dangerous..." ones? I don't know where you >get this from but in the 14 years I've been shooting I can't >honesty say that 5% of the people I've shot with were >unpleasant and certainly not potentially dangerous. >Believe me if I thought they were I would be reporting >them myself. >Jonathan Laws. >-- >Even if what IG was saying had an element of truth to it, (a) >it's more like 0.005% and (b) why hasn't he had their certificates >revoked? --- Come on guys - you are being totally unfair on IG - he has simply not stated WHAT he has done about the dodgy 5%, and you are assuming he has done nothing - don't condemn a man with insufficient information - that's how Tony Bliar and Jack Boot Straw operate ..and as for the statistic of 5%, lets not forget that as a licencing police person, IG sees ALL of the FAC/SGC holders and applicants in HIS area - do you? He is far better placed to judge the number!! Chris (Still very angry and still totally pi**ed off) Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
Misc-Cops & Shooters tarred w. same brush?
From: "pendrous", [EMAIL PROTECTED] HI, By Terry Pendrous, Can I interject on this for a minute. That comment by Tony on the 'Met', not letting Truckers into London under the premise that they could harbour bombs!! which was stated, has really bothered me. I took part in the memorial parade at the Cenotaph in London this year as part of the South Atlantic Medal Association. We were all issued with written passes for access into HorseGuards Parade where the columns were all mustered prior to the march. In addition, our association were advised to bring our membership cards which have photo's attached to aid identification. Remember, this is the W/E the truckers were supposed to reach London. Accepting our friendly "cover" that one gets for these occasions, were goofing from the odd roof of adjacent buildings, there was no check of any identification on entry whatsoever. Whats more, some of us were carrying brollies and bags etc etc. At no time were we ever even asked about or searched for dodgy implements. In fact the whole affair was carried out successfully in a relaxed and pleasant manner. Now I appreciate that the Police were well involved long before the event, and have to put in much effort and hard work. My point!! if there had been a threat of any kind!!! and they had intelligence of such a threat, the Security would have been really tight, and quite rightly so. So where did the excuse for banning the Truckers raise its head from?? because who ever!! were bullshitting, and were using it as an excuse. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
Pol-NRA-ILA FAX ALERT
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] NRA-ILA FAX ALERT Vol. 7, No. 46 11/17/00 AMERICA STILL WAITS FOR FLORIDA It's been 10 days since Election Day 2000, and we still do not know who will be the 43rd President of the United States of America. Several states remain too close to call, but all eyes are watching Florida, as the eventual winner of that state should be our next President. The initial vote count in the Sunshine State ended with Texas Governor George W. Bush (R) winning the state's popular vote and, thus, its 25 electoral votes, pending the final count of absentee ballots. But the margin by which Bush won was so narrow that Florida law required a recount. After the mandated recount, Governor Bush still held the lead in the popular vote, although it had narrowed. Under normal circumstances, the state would thus far be declared for Bush, unless the absentee ballots tipped the balance of votes in Vice President Al Gore's (D) favor. Historically, however, absentee ballots tend to favor Republicans, so most people would consider the state almost certainly Bush's. But as we have all seen over the last week, current circumstances are far from normal. The controversy over Florida started the actual night of the elections, Nov. 7, when several Democrats began claiming that the now-famous butterfly ballots in Palm Beach County may have confused a small percentage of the voters in that county. While the vast majority of the nearly 500,000 voters who cast ballots in Palm Beach County had no trouble marking their ballots, approximately 19,000 ballots were disqualified because two candidates had been marked, instead of one. (It should be noted that several counties in Florida experienced similar numbers of disqualified ballots, while others experienced what amounted to an even higher percentage of rejected ballots.) Several Democrats claimed that the ballot design was the problem, although similar designs are used in many areas throughout the country, and have also been used in Palm Beach County. In addition, the ballot had been designed by a Democrat, was approved by Democrats, and samples of it were published in the local papers, and posted at the polls. If anyone thought the ballots were confusing, the time to raise those concerns was before Nov. 7, not after the numbers started looking bad for Gore. Furthermore, not everyone agrees the ballots were disqualified because of confused voters making too many marks, thus taking votes away from Gore. A recent statistical analysis by Robert Cook, PE, (http://www.nraila.org/news/20001116-GeneralInfo-001.shtml) indicates that the roughly 19,000 ballots may have been deliberately destroyed after the votes were cast, and the votes should have actually gone to Bush. Cook is a nuclear engineer, with an MS in statistical quality control, a software testing specialist and QA manager, who has a track record for analyzing and correcting trends, errors, and mistakes in heavy construction projects for more than twenty years. You can find Cook's study by going to the NRA-ILA website at NRAILA.org. It should also be noted that economist John Lott, a senior research scholar at the Yale University Law School, estimates that when the media prematurely declared Gore the winner in Florida, the announcement cost Bush as many as 10,000 votes in Florida's conservative western Panhandle. The declaration was made prior to the polls closing in that part of the state, and Lott estimates that thousands of discouraged Bush supporters chose to stay home, rather than vote. You can find a link to an article on this subject by Lott (http://www.nraila.org/news/20001115-GeneralInfo-001.shtml) in the Philadelphia Inquirer by going to the NRA-ILA website. But the latest focus of attention has been on a proliferation of legal activity. Most of the legal activity centers around the demands of the Gore campaign that manual recounts (in other words, a third counting of ballots) be conducted in certain counties that have strong Democratic majorities. Even when Miami-Dade County voted not to do a manual recount, the Gore campaign threatened a suit to force Dade to run the recount. Opponents to the manual recount contend that counting ballots by hand opens the door to the possibility of even further error, and perhaps mischief by ballot counters with their own political agenda. Since the Gore campaign is only seeking manual recounts in heavily Democratic counties, it's easy to see why those interested in seeing a fair election result would be concerned. But while the Gore team has been demanding manual recounts, the Florida Secretary of State, Katherine Harris (R), has been upholding Florida election laws. When she first ruled that all counties had to submit to her office their final vote counts by 5:00 p.m., on Nov. 14, Gore's legion of attorneys quickly filed suit to challenge her reading of Florida's election laws. The suit resulted in Leon County circuit Judge Terry Lewis ruling that counties coul
Misc-Police Corruption
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] << rambo wannabes who fulfill their fantasies with fully autos, >> Well done mate. Through your own ignorance you have just condemned the people who like to shoot practical rifle. Because of the laws in this country it is somewhat restricted. Are you suggesting that practical shooters should not have an F.A.C? They are as entitled as you are to have their own shooting disciplines (as long as they are within the current law) And being that fully autos have been banned since 1920 something you 5% must be less. We have enough people trying to stop us shooting already! Steve did warn that anti shooters read this web sight. Are you one?! -- Full-autos have been banned since 1936. Or actually 1989, if you mean burst-fire firearms. I cannot understand at all why anyone would have a problem with practical rifle, AR-15s, L98A1s and all. They might look meaner but they're not even semi-automatic and I reckon your average Lee-Enfield could put out a higher rate of fire. When was the last time a crime was committed in this country with a centrefire rifle? You can count them on the fingers of one hand for any given year. I think it's totally barmy for ACPO to whinge on about straight- pull AR-15s because the net result if they're banned is that people will go out and buy an ordinary bolt-action rifle that is equally as dangerous. I'm hard pressed to think of how a distinction could even be drawn between them, which is probably the real danger as how can you ban a bolt-action AR-15 and not a bolt-action Remington 700? The L98A1 was expressly designed to be a Section 1 firearm, making those Section 5 would require Section 5 authority for a lot of schools, as they were designed for cadets! Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
Misc-Cops & Shooters tarred w. same brush?
From: "Tom Charnock", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Surely the most blatant use of the Police to execute political "whims" was their arresting and removing from the streets the peaceable, placard carrying, protesters against the Chinese "Head Mans" visit in the last year (sorry not got his name or exact date). What I do recall was the BBC news footage of ordinary, nice people (lots girls in them) being manhandled / shunted off the pavement into vans and down side streets. Just so the Blair visitor could see a nice Britain. To hell with a persons Right to demonstrate. Why did the police allow themselves to be used as such an obvious political pawn?? Tom C Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
Pol-Police close "bad apple" website
From: "Tom Charnock", [EMAIL PROTECTED] ET Try the following which was to be their new site http://www.policecorruption.co.uk/ Tom C Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
Misc-Artists Rifles
From: Norman Bassett, [EMAIL PROTECTED] On http://www.abebooks.com I had several "hits" for "artists rifles" in the title field. Steep but available. Regards Norman Bassett drakenfels.org Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
Misc-Police Corruption
From: andrew, [EMAIL PROTECTED] >The people I consider shouldn't be allowed to possess firearms are those that pose a danger to society. > I think IG has too is being a bit misleading when he says he is preventing the "wrong" sort of people from owning firearms. You are doing no such thing! Only preventing certain people, who you don't like, from LEGALLY owning firearms. All you are really achieving, if anything, is to force people who want to own a firearm (for whatever reason) to do so without putting up with the expense and hassle of jumping through your hoops. And it all comes down to your personal prejudices doesn't it? A while ago firearms inquiries officer, I think it was you, told of refusing a firearm certificate to someone who had a picture of Adolph hitler on display; well sixty years ago and only a few hundred miles from you are now, having a portrait of hitler would be seen by a policeman as being a sign of being a good citizen. So it is just personal prejudice - which you wouldn't be allowed to express in any other field of police work. I wonder what you would have done if the picture was of any of the 20th. century's other mass murderers, like lenin or mao, and the applicant was a well connected left wing councillor who was not afraid to expose your bigotry in the courts. As for your assertion that wanting to fire automatic firearms makes one an unfit person - well that rules out all members of her majesties armed forces doesn't it! Worse still I hear they go around all the while dressed in camo outfits! In the end you have to realize that what gun control is really all about is TRUST. You cannot say to someone that you don't trust them with something, whether it is a firearm, a book, a computer, whatever and expect trust in return. That is not the way it works. In the end as I said earlier you only preventing someone from owning firearms legally. You would not be allowed to express you opinions about someone who owned a firearm illegally as they would be a criminal and would therefore have rights! Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
Misc-Police Corruption
From: Neil Francis, [EMAIL PROTECTED] >What about the formerly vociferous shooting organisation now sunk without >trace? Hang - on - is this the one I have just paid another 20 odd quid to for a subscription rewnewal? I demand a recount. On the subject - just what is the state of the SRA? Neil Francis Trowbridge, UK [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- I think the SRA is still about but Richard now only has time for it on the weekend because his conviction has put him out of the gun business and into the double-glazing business. I was under the impression he was trying to get enough money together to appeal his conviction. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
Legal-Texas Lawsuit
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Texas Lawsuit Defends Gun Industry NewsMax.com Wires Thursday, Nov. 16, 2000 AUSTIN, Texas (UPI) - A group of Texas legislators said Wednesday they would file a lawsuit seeking damages and other relief from 19 cities and five counties across the country that have sued gun companies seeking to hold them liable for crimes involving guns. Twenty-five legislators were plaintiffs in the lawsuit scheduled to be filed Wednesday in state court at Lubbock, Texas. It contends the cities and counties conspired to violate the Second Amendment and the Commerce Clause of Article One of the U.S. Constitution. "We are filing this lawsuit to stop these cities from damaging our right to keep and bear arms and the right of gun stores to conduct their businesses free from harassing lawsuits," said state Rep. Suzanna Hupp, R-Lampasas. Jerry Patterson, a former state senator and president of the Civil Liberties Defense Foundation, said the plaintiffs want to put a halt to "attempts by litigious attorneys to hold lawful industries liable for the criminal misuse of their products." Since October 1998, 31 cities, counties and the state of New York have filed lawsuits against the gun industry, retailers and trade associations. They seek to hold the gun industry liable for crime costs such as emergency medical services and law enforcement. The lawsuits have not been decided on their merits as yet, according to the foundation, but they have had damaging effects, such as forcing three gun makers into bankruptcy. Beyond the Second Amendment question, the lawsuit said the legal action by the 19 cities and five counties drove up the costs of guns. It alleged if the entire industry is bankrupted, more than 600 Texas gun stores would go out of business. The legislators also argued that the lawsuits attempted to usurp the power of the Texas Legislature to regulate guns in its own state. The lawsuit names the cities of Atlanta; Boston; Bridgeport, Conn.; Chicago; Camden, N.J.; Cincinnati; Miami; Newark, N.J.; Gary, Ind.; New Orleans; St. Louis; Philadelphia; San Francisco; Wilmington, Del.; Compton, Calif.; West Hollywood, Calif.; Sacramento, Calif.; San Mateo, Calif.; Berkeley, Calif.; and the counties of Los Angeles, Calif.; Miami-Dade, Fla.; Camden, N.J.; Wayne, Mich.; Alameda, Calif.; and the District of Columbia. Copyright 2000 by United Press International. All rights reserved. >> Kenneth Pantling Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
Misc-Police Corruption
From: Mike Taylor, [EMAIL PROTECTED] >From: "IG", INTERNET:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >he would have been hanged.>> > >The law didn't allow, so where is the point you are making? I thought my point was fairly clear. Norman put forward the point that (paraphrasing) it was wrong not to hang criminals on the thin excuse that the police had hanged a few innocents along with the guilty. By typing *AGREED!!!* after it I thought that indicated your agreement with that view. I disagree and used the case of Stefan Kisko to illustrate the dangers. Kisko was wrongly convicted under circumstances which reflect very badly on those involved. Under your preferred system he would have hanged. Evidently you consider the accidental/malicious hanging of a few innocents a price worth paying. I do not. > >The law didn't allow Hindley, Brady, Dennis Neilsen, Peter Sutcliffe, >Black, the Wests, too many paedophiles to mention and many others to go the >way they rightly should have. >Go on then, make me out a good reason why they are still alive? (Apart from >Fred West, who did the honourable thing). > >IG >(member of the Pierrepoint fan club) > I'm a member too. Hanging has much to commend it, not least that the recidivism rate is low. As for those named above, if they are guilty then hang them. But how guilty do they have to be? As guilty as Kisko was for 16 years? More guilty? Where do you draw the line when the system which administers justice is so deeply flawed? Lyndon Johnson (I think) said that laws should be examined from the standpoint of the harm they would do if improperly administered, not from the standpoint of the benefits they would confer if they were properly administered. He had a point. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
Target-Phoenix 2000 results
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Anyone know if the full results are available for the 2000 Phoenix meeting? Downloadable preferably, but otherwise an address or telephone number to contact. Thanks in advance. -- Ian Harris Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
Pol-questionnaire?
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] It has come to my attention that our wonderful Home Office have recently sent out a questionnaire to all Police licencing depts..because they want firearms to be given classificationslong-barrelled AND TOTALLY LEGAL revolvers are obviously causing concern; and get this... .50 cals are to be classed as "MATERIAL DESTRUCTION" weapons. .22's such as the calico are to be classed separately and considered as handgunsthe list goes on I am led to believe. It is an obvious precursor to a whole new swathe of rules and regulations to stuff law-abiding shooters YET AGAIN!!! Don't the police have enough problems administering the existing laws? When was the last incident with .50's or calico's or long-barrelled revolvers? This is outrageous!!! Do any of our wonderful shooting organisations know about this? have they had any input? WHY THE HELL WON'T THEY WAKE UP TO WHAT IS GOING ON AND FOR CHRIST'S SAKE FORM ONE UNITED SHOOTING ORGANISATION?and I don't mean that shambolic poodle of an excuse for one called the BSSC. If this isn't a wake up call that gets treated with the appropriate response, then we do not deserve to have ANY shooting sports in this poxy country...Tiny Bliar and Jack Boot Straw will have won - IS THAT WHAT YOU ALL WANT? Chris (Very angry and totally pissed off) -- Are you sure this questionnaire is from the Home Office? It sounds more like something that ACPO would dream up. The HO usually leave it to ACPO to do things like this. Anyway, you can still follow the plan I have stated before - write to your local force director of finance, find out how much money they give to ACPO and then see your local councillor and complain. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
Crime-Armed Rape
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] NB: Please note language in 3rd par (sic - KP) 151818 NOV 10 DEPRAVED' GANG PUT BEHIND BARS FOR RAPING SPANIARD By Shenai Raif, PA News Members of a gang who raped a Spanish visitor to London were given long sentences today after an Old Bailey judge told them they were depraved. Judge Brian Duckworth said the three men were "disgusting, despicable, degenerate and depraved". He said: "You exposed this unfortunate young lady to an appalling experience of violent, humiliating gang banging." The 25-year-old had been snatched off the street, yards from the house where she was staying in Pimlico, central London, threatened and her money stolen from a cash machine. Then she was taken to a strange house where for three hours she was "ravished" and subjected to "repeated, nauseating, stinking sex". After her ordeal in April, she was "chucked out" of their car in Eaton Square, said the judge. The defence had tried to slur the woman's character but she was a "wholly chaste, respectable, decent young lady" who was now trying to rebuild her life back in Spain. He jailed Abdul Quadir, 28, of Kew, west London, for a total of 15 years for three rapes, blackmail and kidnapping the woman, and for a sexual attack and ú50 robbery on a 16 year-old schoolgirl two weeks earlier. Asif Iqbal, 18, of Chiswick, west London, was given 12 years' youth custody for three rapes, kidnapping and blackmail. Ahmed Moalin, 18, of no fixed address, was given four years' youth custody for robbery and kidnapping. They were found guilty by a jury after denying all the offences. Quadir admitted the attack on the schoolgirl. Michael Worsley, QC, prosecuting, said two guns used in the attacks by Quadir, had been found in his home. The 16-year-old had been attacked by him and threatened with a gun as she was yards from a friend's house in Holland Park, west London. Kenneth Pantling Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
Legal-Dunblane Transcript
From: Norman Bassett, [EMAIL PROTECTED] This was just forwarded to me by the people who are preparing the entire 1996 Cullen Inquiry for the web, the evidence of Grace Jones Ogilvie, a neighbour of Thomas Hamilton. "STV" is Scottish Television - the visitor gave evidence at the Inquiry. Note the regular "police visitor" and the "smell of burning Bakelite" from the fires. Regards Norman Bassett "GRACE JONES OGILVIE (63), Sworn, EXAMINED BY MR. BONOMY: Are you a retired shop assistant? - Yes. And I think that you live at 11 Kent Road in Stirling? - Yes. Now, that would make you a neighbour of Thomas Hamilton? - Yes. Can you tell us the relationship between the two houses, how close they were? - 1, 2, 3 and 4 and that is me and that was Mr. Hamilton. So he was bottom left and you are top right? - Top right. When did he first move to that address roughly? - I think it may be seven or eight years ago. I'm not too sure. But you were already there? - I was there, yes. And at that time were what you would understand to be his mother and father also in the house? - Yes. The lady who was known as his sister but was actually his mother, was she there as well? - No, she didn't stay there. Did you ever see her? - Yes, I did see her. How frequently was she a visitor initially? - I would have said maybe once a week. When did you find out the true relationship of the members of the family? - After this incident happened. Now, I think Mrs. Hamilton, senior died about/ about a couple of years after the family moved to 7 Kent Road? - I think so, yes. And were you then aware of Mr. Hamilton, senior moving out? - No, I didn't know he had moved out but I was told later. And were you aware then that Thomas Hamilton was living in the house on his own? - Well, when I had been told, yes. Roughly when was that? When did you know that? - Well, I would say maybe about five or six years ago. Now, during the intervening period until now, or until the 13th of March, were there many visitors to the house? - Yes. Can you tell me something of who these visitors were? - Well, mostly STV. That is an STV van or car? - Yes, a car. A car with STV on it? - Yes. And this is a private visitor as you would understand it who happened to have such a car? - Yes. The police. How frequently were the police there? - Well, maybe once or twice a month but quite often the police car was down. Anyone else? - There was a landscape gardener came. What was his name? - James Gillespie. Did you know him? - No. How did you learn his name? - It was on his van. At any stage while Mr. Hamilton lived there did you know anything of what he did for a living? - Well, I did know that he did boys' camps. Is that all you ever knew of what he had actually/ actually done for a living? - Well, that's all I knew about, yes. How did you know about the boys' camps? - He told me. How frequently did you have talks, conversations, with him? - Not a lot but one or two conversations I had with him. Out the back in the garden or on the road. If you met in the street would you acknowledge each other? - If I was on the same side as him, yes, but if I was on the other side, no. Would you stop in the street or would it be very rarely you would actually have occasion to stop and speak to him? - No, I wouldn't stop and speak to him. So that on the occasions when there was some conversation between you, who was it that started the conversaton off? - It was him and I nearly jumped out of my skin. Can you remember the first time that happened? - Well, if I was maybe out the back hanging out my washing, he was there. I never heard him coming but he was there and he would speak and I just got a fright and I would talk but then I just left him. Did he ever do anything that you saw that either upset you or caused you any anxiety? - Well, he didn't really upset me but he asked me into his house and I was caught unawares and I went into his house but I was most uneasy. That sort of upsetting. Was it just one occasion you were inside the house? - One occasion, yes. Apart from that, and I will come back to that in a minute, there was not anything else you were aware of going on in the area which caused you any concern? - Just the way he went about. He was a sort of odd character. The way he walked and spoke. Tell me something about the way he walked? - He sort of crept. He was very head down and sort of crept along. What about the way he spoke? - He was very proper and soft spoken. He has been described as a slow, deliberate speaker? - Yes. Was there any sign in the activity around his house that he had an interest in boys' clubs? - Oh, yes. What were the signs? - Well, he used to get a van from Central Region and he told me it was for camps on Loch Lomondside or at Queen Victoria School and he used to have big boards and he would take them down the back and paint them white. That was for flooring at the camp
Pol-Olympic Condoms Yes - Pistols No
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I do love the Olympics - but I do loath their politics. Mike P http://209.210.181.2/hserver/area=slt.local.articles/adsize=banner1/ACC_RANDOM =974406910410 Utah's 'Oly Guns' Idea Fails to Amuse IOC Thursday, November 16, 2000 One of the two prototype "Olympic edition" pistols made for the 2002 Winter Games security personnel before the IOC voided the agreement with gun maker SIG Sauer. (Al Hartmann/The Salt Lake Tribune) BY CHRISTOPHER SMITH (c) 2000, THE SALT LAKE TRIBUNE What may be the most valuable souvenirs of the 2002 Winter Olympics are secreted away in a vault at the Salt Lake County Sheriff's Department, probably never to be viewed by the public. The pair of sleek, black .40-caliber semiautomatic pistols are engraved in 24-karat gold with the Salt Lake 2002 Winter Games logo and the five Olympic rings. The guns are rare not only because there has never been an official Olympics handgun, but because there never will be, according to the International Olympic Committee. The prototype pistols are all that remains of a failed sponsorship deal to outfit Utah law enforcement officers conducting 2002 Games security with special "Olympic edition" SIG Sauer firearms. After Salt Lake County Sheriff Aaron Kennard and his staff spent more than two years winning the approval of the Salt Lake Organizing Committee and the U.S. Olympic Committee, the merchandise licensing contract was killed by the IOC in May, only hours before it was to have been signed. "I felt it was a good thing for law enforcement to have everybody with the same weapons. I had Sen. [Orrin] Hatch helping us and Mitt [Romney] approved it, but the IOC was very queasy and put the kabosh on it," said Kennard. "I was quite disappointed. Heaven forbid we do anything for law enforcement to thank these men and women for putting their lives on the line." Although Kennard figured the licensing deal could yield as much as $500,000 to SLOC, IOC Director of Marketing Michael Payne rejected it. SLOC asked IOC Vice President Dick Pound to intercede, but he "dismissed it outright," according to an IOC spokesman. "Please understand that the U.S. is unique in its relationship with firearms," said Franklin Servan-Schreiber, director of IOC communications in Lausanne, Switzerland. "The rest of the world would not understand, nor accept, the idea of a firearm with the Olympic rings on it." The Olympic movement has licensed almost any product, from champagne to condoms, as the "official" nonesuch of the games. Yet firearms, along with tobacco and hard liquor, remain taboo with the European-based IOC. "It's an excellent gun, a work of art, that would only be carried by the trained men and women protecting these Games," said Salt Lake County Sheriff's Range Master and Firearms Unit Director Nick Roberts, the catalyst for the proposal. "SIG wanted to help the cops, to do something good for law enforcement, just to be able to say in their brochures in 2001 that they were an official licensee." Roberts was boarding a plane May 17 to deliver the completed agreement to SIG Arms President Dieter Strich when he got the call that the IOC had abruptly nixed the deal. He and Kennard reworked the contract -- including removing the Olympic rings and just allowing a Salt Lake 2002 logo to be engraved -- and offered to go to Switzerland at their own expense to plead the case of law enforcement. But SLOC withdrew its support for the gun deal and never broached the subject with the IOC again. Through a spokeswoman, SLOC President Mitt Romney declined comment. The plan would have allowed SIG Arms, the North American subsidiary of Swiss gunmaker SIG Sauer, to manufacture at its New Hampshire plant between 5,000 and 6,000 commemorative sidearms of various calibers and models as specified by officers. Each would be engraved with Olympic logos and serial numbers identifying the particular law enforcement agency and limited-edition issue. The handguns were to be sold only to certified law enforcement personnel or agencies at a discounted price. For every gun sold, SIG Arms would pay a $30 royalty to SLOC, with a minimum guarantee of $150,000 for licensing rights to use the Salt Lake logo and Olympic rings on the weapons. Additionally, SIG Sauer was to donate 120 model 551 and 552 automatic tactical rifles, similar to AR-15 assault rifles, to be divvied up among SWAT teams of Salt Lake County, Salt Lake City, West Valley City, Ogden, Provo, Park City and the state Department of Public Safety. The company would also pay for training the SWAT teams in use of the rifles, and training a Salt Lake County Sheriff's employee as a factory armorer. "Every agency would get the training and rifles for free, and that way no matter what happens during the Olympics, the people protecting these Games would be working from the same sheet o
Misc-Shooters' Web
Sorry, I'm going through this stuff a bit too quick, ignore the other message with this title, I think it was meant for me only! Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
Misc-Bill Harriman Comes Through
From: Norman Bassett, [EMAIL PROTECTED] This was copied to me by the BASC: "From: Bill Harriman Sent: 14 November 2000 16.10 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Transcript of Lord Cullen's inquiry on the internet Dear Mr Lodge I write as Head of Firearms at the British Association for Shooting and Conservation. BASC is the UK's largest shooting association with over 130,000 members. One of these members, a Mr Norman Bassett of Manchester, has contacted me in connection with his request to you to have the transcript of Lord Cullen's inquiry placed on the internet. BASC would be very pleased to see this material available on government websites and hope that you will be able to achieve this before too long. I know that my colleagues on the British Shooting Sports Council would also find this to be a useful resource. With Best Wishes Yours sincerely Bill Harriman" Join the BASC today! http://www.basc.org.uk Regards Norman Bassett drakenfels.org Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
Misc-Shooters' Web
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Shooters' Web is now set up so that you can log in and register/edit your club's details yourself. As an existing registered club, you have been issued with a username and password as follows: username: birmingham password: passage4 These details are for Birmingham Shooting Centre The URL for this club's details is http://www.shootersweb.co.uk/clubs/birmingham Please log on as soon as possible and check all details are correct. Shooters' Web Admin [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.shootersweb.co.uk 0870 44 217 99 Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
Misc-Some History Worth Remembering
From: "John Hurst", [EMAIL PROTECTED] This was passed on to me and now to you all. Particularly relavent with veterans day refections I believe. - ciao, Wayne Some History Worth Remembering. Subject: IWO JIMA Date: Sat, 11 Nov 2000 00:21:54 EST Each year I am hired to go to Washington DC with the eighth grade class from Clinton, WI, where I grew up, to videotape their trip. I greatly enjoy visiting our nation's capitol, and each year I take some special memories back with me. This fall's trip was especially memorable. On the last night of our trip we stopped at the Iwo Jima memorial. This memorial is the largest bronze statue in the world and depicts one of the most famous photographs in history - that of the six brave Marines raising the American Flag at the top of a rocky hill, Mount Suribatchi (Sp) on the Island of Iwo Jima, Japan during WW II. Over one hundred students and chaperones piled off the buses and headed towards the memorial. I noticed a solitary figure at the base of the statue, and as I got closer he asked, "Where are you guys from?" I told him that we were from Wisconsin. "Hey, I'm a cheesehead too! Come gather around, Cheeseheads, and I will tell you a story." (James Bradley just happened to be in Washington DC to speak at the memorial the following day.) He was there that night to say good night to his dad, who has since passed away. He was just about to leave when he saw the buses pull up. I videotaped him as he spoke to us, and received his permission to share what he said from my videotape. It is one thing to tour the incredible monuments filled with history in Washington DC. But it is quite another to get the kind of insight we received that night. When all had gathered , he reverently began to speak. Here are his words that night. "My name is James Bradley and I'm from Antigo, Wisconsin. My dad is on that statue, and I just wrote a book called "Flags of Our Fathers'" which is #5 on the New York Times Best Seller list right now. It is the story of the six boys you see behind me. Six boys raised the flag. The first guy putting the pole in the ground is Harlon Block. Harlon was an all-state football player. He enlisted in the Marine Corps with all the senior members of his football team. They were off to play another type of game. A game called "War." But it didn't turn out to be a game. Harlon, at the age of 21, died with his intestines in his hands. I don't say that to gross you out, I say that because there are generals who stand in front of this statue and talk about the glory of war. You guys need to know that most of the boys in Iwo Jima were 17, 18, and 19 years old. (He pointed to the statue.) You see this next guy? That's Rene Gagnon from new Hampshire. If you took Rene's helmet off at the moment this photo was taken, and looked in the webbing of that helmet, you would find a photograph. A photograph of his girlfriend. Rene put that in their for protection, because he was scared. He was 18 years old. Boys won the battle of Iwo Jima. Boys. Not old men. The next guy here, the third guy in this tableau, was Sergeant Mike Strank. Mike is my hero. He was the hero of all these guys. They called him the "old man" because he was so old. He was already 24. When Mike would motivate his boys in training camp, he didn't say, "Let's go kill some Japanese" or "Let's die for our country." He knew he was talking to little boys. Instead he would say, "You do what I say, and I'll get you home to your mothers." The last guy on this side of the statue is Ira Hayes, a Pima Indian, from Arizona. Ira Hayes walked off Iwo Jima. He went into the White House with my dad. President Truman told him, "You're a hero." He told reporters, "How can I feel like a hero when 250 of my buddies hit the island with me and only 27 of us walked off alive?" So you take your class at school. 250 of you spending a year together having fun, doing everything together. Then all 250 of you hit the beach, but only 27 of your classmates walk off alive. That was Ira Hayes. He had images of horror in his mind. Ira Hayes died dead drunk, face down at the age of 32, ten years after this picture was taken. The next guy going around the statue is Franklin Sousley from Hilltop, Kentucky. A fun-lovin' hillbilly boy. His best friend, who is now 70, told me, "Yeah you know, we took two cows up on the porch of the Hilltop General Store. Then we strung wire across the stairs so the cows couldn't get down. Then we fed them Epson salts. Those cows crapped all night." Yes he was a fun-lovin' hillbilly boy. Franklin died on Iwo Jima at the age of 19. When the telegram came to tell his mother that he was dead, it went to the Hilltop General Store. A barefoot boy ran that telegram up to his mother's farm. The neighbors could hear her scream all night and into the morning. The neighbors lived a quarter of a mile away. The next guy, as we continue to go around
Target-Irish Lee Enfield accuracy problem.
From: "David M", [EMAIL PROTECTED] I have recently bought an ex-Irish government 303. The rifle is in beautiful condition but is not nearly as accurate as my old 1942 Longbranch (now regretfully sold). I have tried a card shim under the front of the barrel to impart a slight upward pressure to the barrel but testing today did not result in a startling improvement. I have now reduced the thickness to try again. Has anyone heard of any other tricks that I might try? The barrel band screws are firm but not over tight. The king screw is tight, the bedding with the woodwork at the action and the first 2 inches of the barrel appears to be firm and snug. On a day when I did my part with sand bags front and rear the Longbranch would put ten rounds into a group of 3 inches at 100 yards with no fliers. With the same batch of ammo the Irish is struggling to achieve twice that which I do not consider satisfactory. I am really pleased to have this "last" of the 303s and I really want it to shoot well. Any suggestions gratefully received, Thanks, David. -- I remember a similar problem with one of these guns in the US, I can't recall how the owner solved it, but the gunsmith got it shooting okay eventually. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
Pol-Heston attacks UK gun laws in Oxford address
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Heston attacks British gun laws Hollywood actor Charlton Heston has attacked the UK's anti-gun laws in a speech to students at Oxford University. The Oscar-winning actor, and president of the influential National Rifle Association (NRA) in the US, said British anti-gun laws had led to an increase in gun-related crime. In an address to the Oxford Union, he said the right to carry arms, enshrined in the US Constitution, maintained freedom and actually saved lives. He described the UK's anti-gun laws as nothing but "cultural cowardice and a subtle form of surrender to the criminals". The actor said those UK laws were the result of an unwritten constitution which gave politicians too much power. He said: "I have spent my life in service to these two sacred sets of work. The gift of human passion in William Shakespeare and the gift of human freedom enshrined in the American bill of human rights." The staunch Republican supporter, and a campaigner for Governor George W Bush, also described the cliff-hanger US elections as a mess. Mr Heston said: "I think Mr Gore is filing these lawsuits and it is inappropriate." "It certainly is making a mess of things as they stand." He added: "Whichever man is installed in the Oval Office will have his tenure in question. He will not have an easy time." The NRA vociferously opposed Al Gore in the build-up to the recent US election. The76-year-old actor surprised some by reading from an autocue at the Oxford Union, which has witnessed speeches from political leaders and celebrities. In a well-researched, carefully-argued speech he spoke little of his cinematic career and instead spoke about his fight to retain the right to bear arms. He said: "I submit that the freedom I advance saves lives and the freedoms denied in this country do not only cost lives but cheapen lives." He told the assembled students: "Since the Labour Government banned hand guns in 1997 firearms crimes have risen." Mr Heston said he would be "safer stepping off the plane in Los Angeles... than walking the streets of London." The NRA has five million members and is widely regarded as one of the most powerful private interests lobby groups in the US. "Before you look fretfully down your noses, ask yourselves why crime is on the rise because we need more gun laws or because we need to enforce the laws you have." 'Unfashionable cause' The actor said that defending firearms freedom was not fashionable in Hollywood and denied that the NRA was a gun lobby. "Possession of a gun does not make a man a criminal or more likely to commit a crime," he argued. Some questions from students about the role of the NRA and the nature of gun violence in the US were ignored. Mr Heston described the American Constitution as an "almost flawless" document and said the bill of human rights "deepened and expanded" the place of the US in the world. Mr Heston has starred in some of the greatest movies ever to have come out of Hollywood. He took lead roles in epics Ben Hur, El Cid and The Ten Commandments. One of his favourite films, he said, was Planet of the Apes, which is being re-made by Batman director Tim Burton. The veteran said he was in discussions with the producers to take a cameo role in the film. But he said he doubted the original could be bettered. "It has got the best ending of any film", referring to the scene when his character confronts a broken Statue of Liberty embedded in the sand. ~~~ Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/entertainment/newsid_1024000/1024076.stm The source is worth looking at for the links. This was shown as a link on the BBC font page of thier web site for about 2 hours midday today (15/11/00). From their on in it was relegated to the entertainment section. One would have thought that it was mostly political. Kenneth Pantling Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
Crime-Plane diverts after passenger remembers he is carrying gun
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Pol-Another stupid ACPO policy
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reminds me of the sales stands at Pistol AD after the Princess Anne Mall attempted kidnapping. The PPK jammed because of inept handling so almost all police forces got rid of them - ex-police PPs and PPKs were selling for not much over L100! It also brought to light several forces that did no rotate their guns. A contact in D J Litt's told me they had bought in a largish quanity of police guns (mainly S&W Model 10HB's but with a smattering of PPs and PPKs). They fell into three catagories :- 'Range guns' - almost shot to bits, well worn barrels and loose actions. Almost unsaleable junk. 'Carry Guns' - well worn external finish but internally excellent. Sold off cheaply or used as the basis for PP2 and 3 conversions. 'Armoury Queens' - Almost as they came out of the box new. But many were so full of accumulated rubbish, debris and dust they had to have the actions stripped so they would cycle! Times have changed since then. Regards Jerry -- I don't think so, because the HMIC report in 1994 was pretty damning of police maintenance practices of firearms, I seem to recall they said about half of the guns were so badly maintained as to be unusable. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
Target-range accident
From: nick royall, [EMAIL PROTECTED] I am informed that there was an accident on Stickledown last week where a match rifle shooter using the supine position managed to shoot himself in the foot. Normally a negligent discharge would get you up in front of the NRA disciplinary committee but on this occasion this will probably not be happening because the person "was unwell" at the time. Perhaps the NRA has different rules for different ranges or maybe it depends on what kind of club or society you are a member of because the NRA seems prepared to alter the application of its rules at whim. Nick Why me? Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
Misc-Police Corruption
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] We all know that the courts require more evidence than mere suspicion. Hamilton took Central Scotland Police to court on appeal didn't he, and won. That later set the scene for a McMurdo to refuse to revoke his FAC depite good evidence from several of his own officers. Unless the police have 'good reason' to revoke a certificate they probably won't, so unless there's evidence they probably won't even try if they think the certificate holder can afford an appeal to the Crown Court. Regards Jerry -- No that's totally wrong. McMurdo refused to revoke his FAC because he thought Hamilton would appeal, however Cullen was very scathing of that view and said that McMurdo should not have pre-judged it, and that McMurdo's interpretation of Section 27 was completely wrong. In addition only about 5% of appeals in Scotland at the time were successful anyway, so CSP were totally and utterly wrong on all counts. Certainly in the case of Hamilton there was more than just a vague suspicion, CSP had mountains of evidence indicating that Hamilton was unfit to hold an FAC, but they had not collated it properly and only McMurdo was aware of the bulk of it. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
Misc-Police Corruption
From: Jeremy Peter Howells, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Come on we probably all know or have met people we don't like or don't particularly trust who hold FACs or SGCs. They may have a clean criminal record and no known mental failings but theres something about them we are not happy with. On the other hand having been a police officer there were other officers whom I didn't like, didn't trust and had my suspicions of (but no evidence). The police must not only be whiter than white but must be seen to be so, that is how it had been for many years. Unfortunately in recent decades this image has been tarnished by such things as the Operation Countryman anti-corruption investigations in the Metropolitan Police (and several since), the fiasco with the West Midlands Regional Crime Squad and various miscarriages of justice. The average policeman is probably as honest as they always were but there are always going to be some bad apples in the barrel, they tarnish the rest though. This isn't helped by the police tendency to let suspect officers retire early on good pensions rather than prosecute them or make them face disciplinary action, even if obtaining a conciction would be suspect and they just want them out. Regards Jerry -- I have to say I can't recall any SGC or FAC holders that worried me to the extent that I thought they were dangerous. Some of them are a bit strange in their own way, but I suppose we would come across as being a bit strange to your average punter. I can think of some RFDs who struck me as being dodgy though, literally all of whom are either now out of business, in prison, or currently facing prosecution. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
Misc-Police Corruption
From: Norman Bassett, [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'm very pleased to hear again from IG on this subject since without debate nobody shifts their mental ground or makes converts and neither do consensuses form. I seem to detect some shiftiness in IG's comments about "taken into consideration"-distorted burglary clear-up statistics. The Maidstone police's visits to Maidstone Prison to get long lists of fake admissions signed up by convicted burglars are probably the best-known example of this. The policeman who made the complaint about the entire Maidstone CID's involvement in this was suspended for years. Paul Condon did the "investigation" as a result of which practices were allegedly changed and nobody penalised - then he got the Metropolitan Police Commissioner's job and a knighthood! The News of the World continues to occasionally publicise similar outbreaks - in Maidstone. It's also clear that the "concurrent sentence" concept is what enables police to persuade convicted burglars to sign "confessions" to hundreds of similar offences on the basis that they won't be further penalised. The concept of "concurrent" sentences is similar to the concept of driving two cars at once, sleeping in two beds at once or drinking two cups of tea at once. It's sophistry - dishonest argument. Hence my assertion that the government is running a conspiracy against us. The Home Office, judiciary and police don't want their reliable meal-tickets locked up, they want them recirculating and keeping the game going. If the entire police force knowingly benefits from faked clear-up statistics then the entire police force and not a mere 66% of them are benefitting from this form of criminal fraud for monetary gain. It's clear from cases that have occurred where courts have accepted that people who are in fact criminals have shot other criminals in self-defence that everyone's right to kill in self-defence continues in UK law. The fact that the defending criminal then got fined ú1,000 for illegally possessing the gun he legally killed another criminal in self-defence with is merely irritating. Frankly it doesn't bother me that drug-dealers have guns, it doesn't bother me that they kill each other, it bothers me that they're killing 500 people a year in the UK selling them drugs. I don't accept that what has happened in America has not happened here. Nor do I accept that what humans do in other societies has no relevance to what the Mickey Mouse British government gets up to here. And I think it would be a big step forward if the UK police accepted that they work for the public and not for the Home Office which trains them to regard the public as creatures from another world. If I saw the police force campaigning for interrogation under scopalomine, campaigning against "concurrent sentences", and going round actively saying that crime is wrong and they'd like to stop it all and it's not just a technical game they're playing for money then I'd have more time for them. Regards Norman Bassett drakenfels.org Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
Misc-Police Corruption
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Having worked with licensing for some years, I now realise the amount of > unpleasant, potentially dangerous and thoroughly objectionable people that > own firearms certificates. Before I hear the howls of protest, let me state > that these form about 5% of the total in the area that I work. That 5%, > however, colours the remaining 95%. All tarred with the same > brush.unfair, but thats the way it is! Then why are you not reporting this and getting their certs pulled, especially if you are correct about the "..potentially dangerous..." ones? I don't know where you get this from but in the 14 years I've been shooting I can't honesty say that 5% of the people I've shot with were unpleasant and certainly not potentially dangerous. Believe me if I thought they were I would be reporting them myself. Jonathan Laws. -- Even if what IG was saying had an element of truth to it, (a) it's more like 0.005% and (b) why hasn't he had their certificates revoked? Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
Crime-Man arrested for shooting his van
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Misc-Trial by Combat
From: "John Hurst", [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Legal-statutory right of entry
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > The moral of the story don't annoy the customs man > (especially at an airport or some similar place) they > can make your life hell if they chose to do so. On a similar note, I understand that one of the most powerful people you can get on the wrong side of was a coroner? If this is the case, presumably he has some powers of entry somwhere along the line? Jonathan Laws Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
Crime-cameras and others
From: "Tim Jeffreys", [EMAIL PROTECTED] >How do you spot these people? One way, they use cliches like " If you're doing nothing wrong you have nothing to worry about."< These same people presumably would have told Steven Waldorff not to worry about those annoying little bits of metal that were inconveniently tearing through his body, as he'd done nothing wrong... Tim : \ Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
Misc-Police Corruption
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > I long ago wrote a paper which is on our website about the > method for how firearms for self-defence should be reintroduced, > I was quite surprised that Nottingham Police seem to be doing > what I said. ??? Were they. Never heard that story Steve, do enlighten us. I don't think it's as difficult to do as IG makes it out to be, all the questions of who should be allowed to carry and what the criteria should be can be thrashed out by the usual methods Parliament uses in all legislation designed to regulate something. It's done all the time. I don't agree with the blanket statement that "we don't need it here", weather or not it is needed by every one all the time is of course open to debate and yes there probably are only a small number of cases where it would have actually made any difference to the outcome but there certainly are some circumstances where a firearm *could* be needed. The obvious is for people who are in potentially dangerous jobs, sercurity staff, back staff or people who regularly deal with goods that are likely to be removed from them by criminal violence, possibly people who have informed on criminals etc. All of these reasons and more *may* be satisfactory to warrant the keeping of a firearm for protection, to say that we simply "don't need that here" is as far from the mark as saying "The police don't need/do need to be armed all the time as a matter of policy" Jonathan Laws -- If you want enlightening it's still in the publications section of the website. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
Admin-list problems update
Okay, we appear to have the list back on-line, however, I can't currently alter account details so subscription requests, digest requests etc. will be delayed for another day or two. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
Target-Browning HP durabilty
From: "Tony Jeeves", [EMAIL PROTECTED] In reply to Nick's follow-up to my original comment abt Hi-Power longevity. My gun was a commercial 'Vigilante' model. It was not new when I bought it but was in 'mint' condition. The majority of the number of rounds ie: 20 to 25k I put through it were relatively soft reloads using lead heads. I spent a hell of a lot of time trying to develop a good accurate light load with limited success. The gun was thoroughly cleaned after each outing and carefully stored. Interestingly, the Vigilante really began to show its accuracy potential towards the end of my ownership when one of the clubs I shot with obtained some 9mm SMG ammo (8z or 9z). At that stage I knew I was going to have to hand it in and where I probably previously would not have used this, I ended up putting quite a lot through the gun. At one stage 11 magazines in rapid succession at a final pre-hand in shoot-fest. The Browning absolutely loved this and began to give the kind of group I had strived for with my reloads. It would have been interesting to have had the opportunity to see how continued used of such ammo would have affected longevity. I think it might then have exhibited the kind of wear Nick mentions. However, my gun was virtually in the same condition when I handed it in as when I bought it. Regards Tony Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
Crime-Armed police mistake DJ's mobile phone for gun
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Crime-Woman shoots 'dead' ex-husband
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 'Dead' man living in cubby hole A man missing for 20 years and declared dead has actually been living in a cubby hole in his ex-wife's home. Ben Holmes, 48, allegedly emerged from his hiding place at the home of his former wife Addie Crawley, 50, after she re-married. He told a court he had been in hiding but emerged to demand half the house. Mrs Crawley, who said she was "terrified" and apparently thought he was dead, pulled out a .22 handgun and shot him. She was arrested by police at the house in Youngstown, Ohio. Holmes told the court in Youngstown, he had been living at the former marital home for the past two years at least and hid in a crawl space if someone came to the door. But James Crawley told the court he and his new wife Addie had been staying at his apartment and hadn't moved into her house before Holmes appeared. Mrs Crawley just happened to be readying the house for her new husband when Holmes appeared, and she shot him, reports The Beacon Journal. Mrs Crawley has been charged with assault over the shooting. A trial date has yet to be set. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
Misc-Police Corruption
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED] <> The law didn't allow, so where is the point you are making? The law didn't allow Hindley, Brady, Dennis Neilsen, Peter Sutcliffe, Black, the Wests, too many paedophiles to mention and many others to go the way they rightly should have. Go on then, make me out a good reason why they are still alive? (Apart from Fred West, who did the honourable thing). IG (member of the Pierrepoint fan club) ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
Misc-Police Corruption
From: "IG", [EMAIL PROTECTED] <> Certainly, see below. <> Fair comments...see below! The people I consider shouldn't be allowed to possess firearms are those that pose a danger to society. By that I mean characters such as those who have deviant sexual tendencies towards children, rambo wannabes who fulfill their fantasies with fully autos, those who provide criminals with firearms, those who reactivate deacts, convicted murderers, people who associate with any such saddo's. Shooters aren't like that, I hear you howl! Oh yes they are, I reply! What about a certain prominent shooting journalist now in prison? What about his buddys? What about the American chappy, now thankfully sent back to his countymen? What about Ryan? What about Hamilton? What about Sartin? What about Gregory? What about the formerly vociferous shooting organisation now sunk without trace? Need I go on? No need to be any sort of ologist to work out that people such as these shouldnt be allowed to walk the streets, never mind own firearms. As to scientific criteria.no need to be a scientist to work this out, dear ET! Common sense rules here! Anyone disagree with me? lol IG -- Yes I do, because Richard Law did not commit the offence he was convicted of, it was complete nonsense and Guy Savage was cleared of an identical charge. Richard can be a bit naive sometimes but given the actual nature of his conviction and the amount of resources Dyfed Powys put into his conviction, I know who I think was the problem there, and it wasn't Richard. Certainly Hamilton and the American were known to the police and Hamilton's FAC should have been revoked under the Guidance and that was the opinion of the public inquiry. The American you refer to had a criminal record as long as his arm, and okay fair enough the local police apparently didn't know that but you have to wonder just how naive they were, sending him Christmas cards and the like. Would you have put that American in your "5%"? Apparently the local police didn't. You're talking nonsense IG. By defintion, you are actually making the police look stupid, because you are a police officer and it is the responsibility of the police to ensure certificate holders are fit people to hold firearms. If you have any such concerns you should take action over them, rather than sitting here giving us a nebulous lecture over some vague assertion. The police need very little in the way of cause to revoke an FAC, so please tell us, exactly what characteristics of the local certificate holders that concern you flag them up as being in this 5%? It certainly doesn't inspire me with confidence to hear a copper saying he thinks he _knows_ certificate holders who aren't suitable to hold a certificate. Steve. ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
Pol-Police close "bad apple" website
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] >In today's Nov 2, 2000, "Times" there is following by Stewart Tendler, Crime >Correspondent > >""A police force took legal action to close down a website on police >corruption run by one of its own officers. > >Inspector Andrew Catlin, former head of Surrey Police's Firearms Unit, >started the site to publicise his concerns about senior officers and >complaints from colleagues and the public. > >The force was given the court injunction at the weekend to close the site >because its address is too close to that of the force's web site. Mr Catlin >was due to begin operation on www.surreypolice.com yesterday; the official >Surrey Police site is www.surrey.police.uk Steve, & Tom, I tried to access the http://www.surreypolice.com web site, and this: http://uk2.net/ turned up instead. The other http://www.surrey.police.uk takes you to what looks to be the bona fide police web site. Anybody know what happened to the 'corruption' site? ET ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
Crime-police shoot armed robber
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >This is the perfect scenario for the "couldn't they just wing him" types - >except that they legged him. Whilst I have to admire the police for their >restraint in this case, I can't help but wonder if the officer concerned >actually hit what he was aiming for. sadly, I cannot claim credit for this: "Whatever you shoot at, call it the enemy Whatever you hit, call it the target." first heard from a Col Little (late AAC) but I suspect a good deal older:-) Robert ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
Misc-Police Corruption
From: "Richard Loweth", [EMAIL PROTECTED] I have to agree with both points about trusting the police and trusting shooters! I would agree that about 5% are people who have "something" about them, an "air" of racism, sexism and unpleasantness. Of whom do I speak? Police and shooters in equal measure! I think that if we looked at ourselves as both law officers and firearms certificate holders then we could do little but agree with both IG and Ant. We can do little about that "element" with shooting, but I strongly believe that we get the police we deserve. The report into the Lawrence murder is a long belated first step. the "canteen culture" is not only a breeding ground for racism but for the nurturing of anti-gun views etc. etc. However I think that within ten years that racism will be gone from the police. Anti-gun sentiment? There will probably be no point in it as ACPO and the Police Federation will have long before seen to it that all rifled cartridge weapons are banned and all smoothbore weapons on s1. ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
Misc-Cops & Shooters tarred w. same brush?
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] << We both know the realities of our respective groups, but are unable to get people to see the wider picture! >> Very true, IG, but there is a considerable difference between our respective groups, in that the police - though not in a direct sense "government agents" - are in a position of authority over other citizens. They apply the laws, and the regulations which CCs make up by themselves, "force policy" etc, which the State uses to control us. And while bad apples among shooters can be (or should be, cf Central Scotland Police & Hamilton) weeded out by the wide discretionary powers given to CCs by e.g. Section 27, and your average shooter is not rich enough to fight oppressive rulings in court, various high-profile instances of police corruption & incompetence have confirmed that the police are a law unto themselves... While not wishing to paint absurd alarmist pictures of police oppression, or make the bobby down the road (mine's called Adrian) seem like a fascist brute, you cannot separate oppressive government policies from the agents who enforce them. In occupied France during WW2, order could not have been maintained by the German forces (comparatively few in number) without the French police, most of whom remained in their jobs. And closer to home, the co-operation of the Channel Islands authorities with the occupying forces is notorious. In both cases, the police have come in for sustained criticism, rightly so. The same principle applies to you and your colleagues, IG. You might dismiss this as paranoia - I don't know how much interest you take in politics - but an increasing number of us are seriously alarmed at the destruction of liberty in this country. When the Met say they will exclude protesting truckers from London, on the shaky pretext that terrorists might seize the opportunity to plant bombs, what are we to think? Are they concerned purely with the public good - or has some politician bent the ear of the Chief Plod? Draw your own conclusions. My point is that many people distrust the police not through superficial, unthinking prejudice based on a small number of bent coppers, but because they are alarmed by the growth of authoritarianism in government, and the readiness of the police both to encourage (cf ACPO's lobbying to squeeze gun owners out of existence) and enforce authoritarian policies. It's not good enough to say you're just obeying orders. I don't accept equivalence between the two groups - police and gun-owners - in the way you imply. BTW IG (Ian? Ieuan? Ivan?), please don't call me "Ant", or "Tone" for that matter. Anthony or Tony will do - or "Sir" if you hail me in your professional capacity... ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
Misc-Stefan Kisko
From: "Richard Loweth", [EMAIL PROTECTED] He was prosecuted by the (now) Lord Waddington who was later Secretary of State for Home affairs under the Tories. When asked to comment on the matter of Mr Kisko's innocence Lord Waddington's reply made interesting reading. ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
Legal-Murderer Used Former Police Firearm
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Picked this up in my local paper, it may have a bearing on the reasons why the police are now destroying surplus firearms. ++ Jury takes 90 minutes to clear Trevor Clouden of 'Lucky' murder -- -- RELATIVES of Warren 'Lucky' Wilson fled sobbing from court after Trevor Clouden was acquitted of his murder at the Old Bailey on Friday. Mr Clouden did not testify but his barrister, Courtenay Griffiths, QC, maintained he was framed for the murder, which he claimed was carried out by a mystery gunman. Clouden, 37, of Hartwell Drive, Kempston, was alleged to have fired four bullets into Wilson's head as he sat in a car on the corner of Church Street and Alexandra Road, Bedford, on August 17, 1997. It was revealed that the weapon was a Smith and Wesson which had once been used as a policeman's gun. Strathclyde police had sold it on to a registered gun dealer and records show it was later destroyed. However, it found its way into the underworld and was wrapped in a towel and used to shoot Wilson at close range. A street cleaner later found the weapon, still wrapped in the towel, in a flower bed. The court heard that Wilson was involved in an escalating turf war between gangsters hoping to control a drug dealing empire in Bedford. It was said that Wilson was battling against his major rivals, the Crearer brothers, who put a L12,000 price on his head. After the killing, Clouden fled to the island of Caricou in the Caribbean. With the help of his brother, he was eventually traced to an apartment in Brooklyn, New York, where he was arrested in August last year and waived his right to fight extradition. In his closing speech, Mr Griffiths claimed he was framed by police and his brother, David, who gave evidence against him. David claimed that Trevor had admitted to him that he had shot Wilson. He said: "We know how powerful the hatred one brother can have for another ever since the Old Testament when Cain killed Abel." Home Secretary Jack Straw has agreed to the release from prison of David, who was jailed for four years in July 1998 for drug dealing and has since contracted AlDS. Trevor Clouden denied murdering Wilson and the jury took 90 minutes to find him not guilty. Det Supt Dave Tomlinson, officer in charge of the inquiry said: "We had to gather evidence through a wall of silence. Many people were afraid to talk to us. Many of those who gave evidence are either in prison or have criminal records. This has been a difficult case from start to finish." ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
Misc-Artists rifles
From: "Jim Franklin", [EMAIL PROTECTED] After enquiring of Tom Morgan, an authority on WW1, he sent me the list below of books on the Artists Rifles. [.] "The Artists and the SAS" by B. A. Young. Published by the regiment, 1960 "The Artists Rifles, 28th London Regiment." Published by the Regiment, no date, but about 1933 "Once an Artist Always an Artist" by Capt. C. J. Blomfield. London, 1921 "The Regimental Roll of Honour and War Record of the Artists Rifles (1/28th, 2/28 and 3/28th Battalions, the London Regiment, T.F.) Commissions, Promotions, Appointments and Rewards for Service in the Field obtained by Members of the Corps since 4th August, 1914." Edited by Major S. Stagoll Higham. London, Howlett and Son, 1922. "Memories of the Artists Rifles" by Col. H. A. R. May. London, Howlett and Son, 1929. "The 28th (County of London) Battalion, Artists' Rifles, Abergavenny Camp, 1913, and other Photographs; in which is incorporated conditions of service and notes on the Regiment." No imprint, 1920 You've probably guessed that most of these books are going to be a little hard to get hold of! [.] Jim Franklin Orpington KENT. UK PGP key on request -- To put it mildly. Steve. ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
Pol-Another stupid ACPO policy
From: Jonathan Spencer, [EMAIL PROTECTED] >And the final incorrect assumption is that none of them >can be legally owned by civilians, the police have >a lot of shotguns and rifles that are perfectly legal >for us to own, but they are chopping them all up. For >example, I was in line to buy a police surplus P-H >bipod, but instead it has been melted down because of >this stupidity. One rural constabulary I know recently disposed of its Parker-Hale sniper rifles (in 243) onto the open market, and these were advertised by ordinary RFDs in _Target Sports_. A similar position hold with respect to the MOD's L42 rifles, and some of AI's AWs are available too. --Jonathan Spencer, firearms examiner "Justice is open to everybody in the same way as the Ritz Hotel." Judge Sturgess, 22 July 1928 -- Like I said, the policy is not legally binding, but a lot of forces are following it. Also the MoD has a policy of not selling any more guns, that is a couple of years old now. They'll sell ammunition though. Steve. ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
Misc-firearms site
From: J. Dwyer, [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.bikershome.com/~nix/firearms/fire.html FIREARMS, SURVIVAL and OUTDOORS RECREATION ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
Misc-Police Corruption
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I.G wrote:- << Personal opinion, fine, I can live with that. My personal opinion is that it would be totally insane (and unfeasable!) to expect police officers in the UK to be armed as a matter of course, whether on or off duty. We dont need to be. Yet. Neither do we want to be. Personally, I couldnt give a stuff about elsewhere. Why are we so besotted with comparing the UK to elsewhere? We are here, not there, so do what is required for us, not what suits America, Russia, Patagonia, etc. >> So why do the police\politicians always like to compare us with 'elsewheres', especially that 'gun culture' the US. <> I intend to do just that, this country\popliticians\enforcement bodies think my wife and I are sick people who are just waiting to go onto a killing spree and were\are treated accordingly it does not like us. The feeling is mutual. Besides I like flying and fast cars, neither of which fits in with this countries ideologies. Which appears to be 'go to work, watch eastenders, pay our taxes' Also, if I wanted to spend so much time 'on camera', I would've become a bloody actor, and I also do not need some pin-stripped herbert to tell me how to wipe my arse. As I been doing just that capably for some years now, I might even be older than you. If you arm yourself for defense, it might be for ONE instance when it might happen, in Florida, if I recall correctly the rape rate dropped dramatically, when women were allowed CCW, so how many women were armed but never needed it, or were not armed and never needed it, the fact remains the issue of CCW's was made public knowledge and the rape rate dropped. And I have to admit, if anything ever happens to my wife, and I'm told by a cop that they will catch him, I'll put that cop on their arse, because as far as I'm concerned that cop as good as put her there. Take Care all Roger Hardley ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
