CS: Pol-No 10 rebukes Hoey in gun row
From: Janet L Jackson, [EMAIL PROTECTED] "A spokeswoman stressed Ms Hoey's views . were a clear breach of laws banning all handguns introduced in 1997" If this is really what was said by 10 Downing Street, am I alone in finding it sinister? Was there really something in the 1997 Act that made holding such views illegal? Or is this just what Downing Street and The Guardian would like? -- I think they must have meant it was a violation of Government policy, which if anything is more intriguing, because I thought it was meant to be a "free vote". Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Thermobaric Weapon..
From: "Richard Loweth", [EMAIL PROTECTED] A Tory Home Affairs spokesperson is reported today to have said, on being asked her views on thermobaric weapons: "When elected to power at the forthcoming General Election we shall actively examine the possibility of this being issued to police forces on a trial basis. Too often our brave police men and women have to risk their lives in entering besieged buildings whilst equipped with inadequate weapons to counter the modern terrorist, criminal or firearm certificate holder. we have got to get the balance right. Such new technology as the thermobaric grenade will one more tilt the playing field back in favour of the police constable doing his or her job. Whilst remaining proud of our handgun ban we are not content to rest on our laurels. It is vital that these new technologies are available not just our armed forces but our police forces too" -- Oh my, we are in a sarcastic mindset today... Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Kate Hoey
From: Michael Burns, [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Might I suggest that the "proper" way of both getting Blair to realise th= > e > support we wish to give Kate Hoey AND at the same time to express that > thanks to her is to write one letter only, direct to Tony Blair at 10 > Downing Street or House of Commons asking if he will pass on your (the > writer's) thanks to Kate Hoey for her recent remarks etc. etc. This meth= > od > "contrives somehow a double debt to pay". > Don't you mean "Tony Blair's 3rd Secretary's bin"? (this phrase was coined by a friend of mine to ridicule the standard Student Politician response to everything...) mike Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Kate Hoey
From: Michael Burns, [EMAIL PROTECTED] ANOther Paper, today "Renegade Politician recieves stern rebuff from No.10 for telling the truth" London, yesterday. Renegade MP Kate Hoey recieved yet another blow to her New Labour career yesterday when she was disciplined by No.10 Spin doctors for failing to toe the party line. She has consistently refused to submit to being Tony's footstool, and party insiders claim that she will lose her position as Sports Minister at the next reshuffle due to a comment about the ineffectiveness of the 1997 Firearms Act. Ms Hoey is a lifelong supporter of foxhunting, as well as shooting sports, and learned to shoot at an early age. "We never hear John Prescott telling us that the laws on registration of motor vehicles don't prevent them falling into criminal hands, do we?" A.Nonny Mouse, Labour candidate for Somewherelseville said. "She should never have criticised Our Tone on such an emotive matter", a paid anti-everything supporter said, as she recieved a large wad of notes from a passing Government member. POLICE RAID A leaked document tells us that the house of a Ms. K. Hoey will be raided tonight because of rumours that she may have illegal weapons there. She is an anti-government supporter of shooting and heck, she's Irish after all. Do the police need more of an excuse? Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-the L85A2
I have uncovered another source for information on our "new" service rifle (and he's a source who should know), apparently the bit I posted about them being issued as of next month is bogus, apparently this is the date of the contract award and it is possible there may be some by the end of February but probably not. Also the comment was made that even the TMH may be replaced, meaning essentially a brand new rifle. No-one seems absolutely crystal clear on that point, I think the original information I got is more likely to be true though. However my source (who is extremely experienced with other assault rifles) says the modified guns that H&K submitted for trials are very reliable, though he thought (like the rest of us) that the Diemaco C7A1 (Canadian M16) would have been a better choice. BTW, anything to do with the military in the future I will post with the heading "Military", as we do seem to have an awful lot of threads on military stuff. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-No 10 rebukes Hoey in gun row
From: George Barnard, [EMAIL PROTECTED] >A spokeswoman stressed Ms Hoey's views, which drew immediate condemnation >from anti-gun campaigners, were not shared by the prime minister and were a >clear breach of laws banning all handguns introduced in 1997. Really? What happened to our so-called "freedom of speech"? George Barnard -- Well, it is the Guardian. You expect accuracy from journalists? Perhaps this was a slip and they meant "policy". Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Shotguns/forensic
From: "E.J. Totty", [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Can anyone on the list help with a hypothetical situation for a fiction I'm >working on? --snip-- >Barry Woodward >-- >There's quite a lot of ways, comparison of firing pin indents on >the primers, they can also determine what ammunition was used to >shoot the victim, fire it through the gun and compare it >ballistically, if it was close range they can compare the burns >on the victim with burns obtained during testing and so on. > >Steve. Steve, & Barry, While looking up information for at least one answer to your questions, I came across this gem from "Firearms Investigation Identification and Evidence", by J.S. Hatcher (yes, that Hatcher), Frank J. Jury, and Jac Weller, The Stackpole Company, 1956 edition, pp 332-333: "It is remarkable today that those regions where the family shotgun stands in a corner of the living-room, or on hooks over the mantel in the style of our ancestor, are almost completely free of organized crime. Neither tyranny no crime flourishes where citizens both own and can use weapons." As Steve said above, the pin indent is one way, and the others that are mentioned case markings caused by tool marks or machines that are imparted to the case of the shell, either upon insertion, upon firing (case expands), and upon extraction. Not knowing of other possible forensic science advances that would be able to determine from what barrel of what firearm the shot was launched from, Hatcher indicates that collection of the shot was necessary to identify what the possible bore size arm was involved. The other things would be the wadding, and particles of gun powder/propellent for later comparison to a possible murder weapon. Usually, the expert will observe the pattern of the shot to determine distance at which the arm was discharged, what the choke was, and the size of the shot. Case ID, if any are found, can help determine the firearm, because even with few marks, most shotguns makes and types have a family of characteristics, from semis, to single and double barrels. Hope that helps a bit. -- =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= Liberty: Live it . . . or lose it. =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= =*= ET Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Article In The Mirror
From: James Walton, [EMAIL PROTECTED] I don't know if you saw the article in today's Mirror about a blind man in the US being granted a CCW permit. I emailed the author and he responded quite quickly (and patronisingly, I thought). I reproduce my email and his response below: __ Dear A Lines, I read with interest your article in today's Mirror regarding the issue of a firearms permit to a "blind" American man. I was rather disappointed by the inaccurate nature of your reporting and I am writing to bring a few points to your attention: (1) Not all people designated "blind" have no vision at all. Many have a degree of vision and some have enough to shoot accurately and safely. Shooting and archery for the blind are safe, established sports in many parts of the world. (2) You state that 5,285 children were killed by gunfire in the US in 1998. Although you do not give a source for this figure, I have heard numbers of this magnitude quoted before and they are typically grossly inflated. In the US the term "child" covers all people under 19 years old, and shooting statistics inlude those killed in the pursuit of criminal activity such as those shot in self defence or murdered in drug disputes. Although all shootings are regretable, I suspect that most of the 5,285 children in question are not innocent victims. The number of children killed or wounded with guns BY ACCIDENT is closer to 1000 per year (source: Handgun Control Inc). (3) You state that many Americans "mistakenly" believe that they have a right to bear arms under the Second Amendment. This Amendment reads: "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." A number of people have suggested that this refers to a national right to bear arms such as the formation of state National Guards rather than an individual right. This interpretation is INCORRECT. The "state's right" position has been comprehensively demolished in a large number of court cases and legal journals. The right to keep and bear arms is an INDIVIDUAL right in the United States. http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Zone/9653/guns.html Yours sincerely, James __ Hi James Thanks for your email it was well-thought out and better than the usual abuse I received !!! To answer your points 1) I am well aware that all people registered blind have no vision ... the issue is whether a man registered blind who had difficulty picking out a target at seven yards should be given a concealed gun licence. 2)You are absolutely right and shows the sheer absurdity and scandal of the gun situation in the US the fact that so many people have access to weapons lead to so many deaths. 3)You use the word "incorrect" this seems to sum up your argument Are you a member of the NRA Best wishes andy -- Is the Mirror still considered a newspaper? Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Field-High-cachet firms in firing line
From: RustyÿBullethole, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Times 5.1.01 High-cachet firms in firing line By Jon Ashworth and Christine Buckley RICH Americans have long heat a path to the door of James Purdey & Sons, the Mayfair gunmaker. Estahlished in 1814, a year before the Battle of Waterloo, this most English of companies is rightly lauded for its workmanship. Purdey, a small company relying on America for three quarters of its sales, is monitoring events across the Atlantic with more than a little nervousnes. With prices starting at L40,000 a gun, and frequently L100,000 for engraved models, it will be squarely in the firing line of any US economic downturn. High-priced luxury goods with an English cachet will be among the first casualties if Americans rein in. The company has invested in premises on Madison Avenue in New York. Richard Purdey, the chairman, said: "America is a very important market for us . . . 'there's the old cliche `when America sneezes, everyone else catches a cold', and I think we have to be aware that people are more inclined to place orders for our kind of product when there is long term confidence in the world economic scene." He added: "Without question, any business which is heavily dependent upon America needs to weigh up very carefully the economic comments and forecasts coming out of the US at the moment and should plan accordingly." Purdey remained family owned until 1994 when it was bought by Richemont, the Swiss-based tobacco and luxury goods company. It falls under Richemont's Vendome subsidiary, which owns Cartier, Alfred Dunhill, Montblanc, Van Cleef & Arpels and Piaget watches. Purdey guns are complemented by upmarket Purdey accessories running from clothing to cufflinks. Tom Hughes, the managing director of a 60-year-old aerospace company in Burnley, Lancashire, is keeping a sharp eye on the US economy, too. Upon its performance hinges his French-owned business's hopes for expansion. Hurel-Dubois's Burnley operation, with 700 employees, makes reverse thruster systems for aircraft, with a large proportion of its products serving the vast regional airline routes in the US. Mr Hughes said: "If there is a downturn, we would be affected quite seriously. The fact that some firm action has been taken is encouraging." Hurel-Dubois, taken over last year by the French engineering group Snecma, should be strong enough to weather a downturn, but could face pressure to rationalise. Problems now will send shockwaves down through the industry's supply chain for years to come. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Shooters' Web
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hi all, well, despite being really busy with personnal commitments, we have now finished the updating of the ShootersWeb website. New system If you haven't entered your club yet, do so now! You can now do this on-line, as we have set it up so that anyone can enter club details. Please take a look at yours, and update and ammend as you see fit. You will need your username and password, which will have been emailed to you already. If you have forgotten it, the site has a reminder service under the "security" link on the front page. Enter your email address, and your password will be sent to you by the power of Perl! Keywords With regards to the updating of your details, please bear in mind that the search system works off the keywords in your text. In the pipeline is a set of pre-set search buttons to allow those looking for a club to press a button and see all the, for example, .22 carbine clubs in Wales. We will be sending another list to confirm the key words for description, but for the moment, please type out "black powder", ".22 rimfire", "practical rifle" etc. as this makes it easier for us to write the search, it is easier for you to be found, and, of course, newcomers won't get confused with the meaning of terms. Success A new page devoted to firearm safety will be written, to celebrate both owners of this site gaining the NRA Range Conducting Officer qualification under Richard V. Malbon's personal supervision. (Hurray!) Coming soon(ish) Also coming this month will be the predefined search buttons, along with a glossary, a calendar and a classified ads service. The glossary will define things such as what .22 means, along with PR, BP, prone, sling, fullbore, carbine, rimfire etc. The Calendar will allow a listing of important events, such as guest days, competitions, meetings, etc. that are open to all comers, or at least those who hold an FAC. (Obviously not just your normal hours, as you already put them in the clubs listing, didn't you!) The Classified Ads will be open to all, selling whatever they want. Since we will be charging any dealers who wish to advertise a nominal sum, we will be doing likewise with the Classified Ads, since they will involve substantial work. We look forward to suggestions of a suitable (non-zero!) rate. We will not be having a discussion board at present. If demand is high we may consider adding this feature. Submissions Any submissions for the site should be sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with details of preferred usage. Many thanks to Jim Craig, of Dechmont Airgun Club in Glasgow, who provided the article "A Breath of Fresh Air". Coming soon will, hopefully, be a write-up from Tony Di Domenico, of BAE SYSTEMS Warton Rifle Club in Lancashire, of the largest ever Interfactory shoot, which "Admin" of ShootersWeb competed at. For those of you who cannot wait, the article can be read in the latest NRA Journal. Thank-You for your support of your sport! Nigel Tolley and Kate Cormack Shooters' Web Admin [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.shootersweb.co.uk 0870 44 217 99 Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Grenade that goes through walls
From: RustyÿBullethole, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Britain works on grenade that goes through walls By Michael Smith Defence Correspondent BRITAIN is developing an urban warfare grenade that can be fired through the wall of a building to disable all those inside. Larger versions of the bomb have been widely criticised by human rights groups because they are indiscriminate, killing many civilians if used in urban areas. The bomb releases a cloud of inflammable gas, vapour, or explosive particles which is then detonated. The shock wave and vacuum pressure destroy the internal organs of anyone within range. The effects can be horrific, with liver and spleen ruptured, lungs collapsed and eyes forced out of their sockets. The weapon, previously known as the fuel air bomb, was developed during the Vietnam War as an alternative to napalm for deforestation of areas used by Viet Cong guerrillas. It was also used in the desert against Iraq's Republican Guard during the Gulf War. It achieved notoriety from its use by the Russians in Chechnya, where substantial numbers of civilians were killed. The largest ones have a destruction range similar to that of a small thermo-nuclear device, but the Ministry of Defence stressed that the weapon being developed for the Army was hand-held, with a much smaller range. Menzies Campbell, Liberal Democrat defence spokesman, said it was difficult to see how it might be used without breaching the spirit of the Geneva Convention. He called on the Government to take the lead in drawing up an agreement limiting their use. He said: "I think a lot of people will be surprised to learn that the MoD is taking such an interest in a weapon designed for offensive, urban warfare. "These weapons can inflict terrible injury in human beings, whether hand-held or not. Dum-dum bullets are outlawed by international convention. Should not these weapons be treated in the same way?" The MoD said British Armed Forces did not have such weapons, but, given that they had existed for some time, it would be "irresponsible" not to consider their possible use. A spokesman said that the hand-held weapons would be for use in circumstances such as the Balkan wars, where infantry came up against heavily fortified positions in concrete or brick buildings or bunkers,. The spokesman said: "This is intended to be a lightweight, precision weapon which must be capable of being fired by a single soldier and of penetrating the wall of a building rather than having to be fired through a door or a window. It must have a limited area of effect such that it can be safely used at ranges as close as 30 metres without risk of injury to either our troops or civilians nearby." The weapon, which will weigh no more than 22lb, and will be based on explosive particles rather than flammable vapour or gas, will have a maximum range of at least 185 yards. It is being developed at the Defence Evaluation and Research Agency site at Fort Halstead, near Rochester, Kent. Major Ian Orr, head of the team investigating weapons for use in built-up areas, told Radio 4's Today programme that it was also looking at ways of protecting soldiers from the effects of similar enemy weapons. "These things are out there. We have got to acknowledge that. We cannot legally produce something which is a flame weapon but we can produce something which is a blast weapon." Hand-held thermobaric devices were developed by Russia and used in Afghanistan against guerrillas in buildings, caves and tunnels. The grenade of a Russian RPO70 Schmel, known to the guerrillas as "Satan Sticks", has a destruction area of 50 square metres. Telegraph picture http://www.telegraph.co.uk/graphics/01/1/5/ngrenbig.gif Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Field-Cougar stalks and kills woman skier
From: RustyÿBullethole, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Times 5.1.00 Cougar stalks and kills woman skier
CS: Misc-Shotguns/forensic
From: RustyÿBullethole, [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Once the police put it through forensic tests, is it in anyway possible to >link that gun with a former killing? I know it's easy with a rifled weapon, >but what can be done with a shotgun? >The way I see it any cartridges impounded with the gun could be linked >forensically by batch number, plaswads, maybe shot. But I'm hazy on this. If the spent cartridges are removed from the scene it is very difficult/impossible to link a smoothbored gun with a particular crime. For instance deep scores or scratches in the barrel (chokes also) can leave marks on plastic wads. On sawn-off shotguns, the coarse hacksaw burrs often extend into the mouth of the barrel, scratching the wad as it exits the muzzle - not many "blaggers" are known to re-crown their muzzles! The only evidence left when someone is shot with a good smoothbore gun (when the cartridges are not left at the scene and the gun is thoroughly cleaned afterwards) is the distance fired and type of and make of cartridge - markers within the powder of a cartridge may also be found at the scene which could potentially give up a batch number and consequently a point of sale of the cartridge. If a cartridge manufacturer produces shot cups from a readily identifiable source of plastic, then plastic fouling may point to a gun as having fired a particular brand of cartridge. Microscopic scratching of plastic wads or shot cups may be relevant but once again this may be negated by a barrel in good condition, also the plastic used in wads is often very limiting in this respect - many plastics, polythene being one of them, tend to "self heal" and are dificult to examine in this way. So much so that several years ago Remington introduced some plastic coated 158gr 38 sp ammo to cut down on lead fumes on indoor ranges, the ammo was quickly dropped when it was realised that the rifling marks on the spent bullet were disappearing shortly after firing due to the plastic healing. Rusty Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Sportsman's Association January Newsletter
From: "SA Mail", [EMAIL PROTECTED] SPORTSMAN'S ASSOCIATION NEWSLETTER JANUARY 2001 As I write this Newsletter I note that the present Government is preparing to use its authority, under the Parliament Act, to force through their legislation to reduce the age of consent for homosexual acts to 16 years despite the obvious opposition to the notion from the vast majority of the population. That just about sums it up, doesn't it? In their absolute determination to appear at all times to subscribe to the latest fashion, Political Correctness, the Government will, at least in public, support any minority group that may provide them with a few more votes at the next Election. The actual rights or wrongs of a case do not seem to matter. As a personal viewpoint, a sixteen-year-old boy is still, legally, a child (as, indeed, is a sixteen-year-old girl) and should be accorded civilised protection as a child but that is, as I say, a personal view. Our Rulers have, many times in the past, expressed their concerns about the possible development of a 'gun culture' amongst the population and declared that their legislative activities are, at least in part, designed to prevent that from happening. We have many times countered by saying that there is no more a gun culture amongst legitimate shooters than there is a golf culture amongst golfers. Any problems in this regard are squarely attributable to the criminal classes and none of the Government's legislation has impinged upon them. By definition, laws can only provide guidance, or a code of practice, for the law-abiding and prescribe penalties for those law-breakers who actually get caught. We would like to see much more effort being devoted to the latter rather than to the former. What is to be done about it all? This Association believes that the only effective long-term solution is to use the political system rather than to fight it. By using it we can gradually bend it to our will rather than being constantly trying to defend ourselves from the whims of others. However, this will involve considerable effort by all people who believe in freedom of choice. Most people, I imagine, do not want to get involved in politics - which is why militant groups can achieve domination of any organisation that they wish to 'take over'. Political action has always been a very important part of The Sportsman's Association strategy for the return of our pistols and the implementation of fair and sensible Firearms legislation. We have tried to influence politicians by presenting them with fair and, hopefully, informed submissions on the subject of firearms law. We have held demonstrations (our own marches) to show that we represent a lot of people, we lobbied MP's etc. - i.e. we tried to use the weapons of democracy. The results of these efforts are, unfortunately, plain for all to see - we lost! We will now have to extend our range of activity to include encouraging suitable people to stand for Local Council elections, General elections etc. and influence party political thinking. We recently wrote to the leaders of our major political parties to find out what their current official policies were regarding Firearms legislation. Copies of the original letter from us, and the party responses, can be found on our website, but I will summarise briefly for the benefit of those without Internet access: i.. The Conservative Party indicated that they were still formulating their Firearms policy and invited us to meet with them to discuss the matter. We intend to do this before Christmas this year. ii. The Labour Party response was, sadly, predictable, being a brief summary of the recent Government response to the HASC report. iii.The Liberal Democrat leader passed the matter on to their Home Affairs spokesman and we are still awaiting a full response. We are also awaiting a full response from Plaid Cymru. iv.The Scottish Nationalist Party gave perhaps the most definitive response. Following the Dunblane massacre they suggested that all existing certificates for handguns be revoked, and after a transitory period returned to their owners under conditions including an absolute ban on home storage of weapons; the prevention of holding more than one gun in any calibre and insisting upon the prior and continuing membership of a 'gun club' by each and every applicant. This is still the SNP's official policy. We will provide further information about the Firearms policy of our political parties as and when we receive it. The value of this information is obvious with a General Election possibly only six months away. Obviously we would not dream of trying to influence how anyone should place his vote in a General Election, in that sense we are an apolitical Association, but we hope Shooters will find the information useful when considering how to cas
CS: Target-Rem 700 problems
From: "Charles B", [EMAIL PROTECTED] The following email was recieved from a lister of a site I subscribe to and you might be interested in the article referenced that allegedly comes from your site. Read below. Charles B Listers: I don't usually look at the title page of the VDD/GNA website. But was shocked when I checked it tonight. I suggest everyone check out: http://www.vdd-gna.org/ There you will find an article entitled: "NEWSBULLETIN! Possible Misfires With Remington 700" (rifles). I have a Remington 700 BDL (7mm mag.) and my brother has one. I'm a life member of NRA and I have not seen anything about this problem before. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Tony Martin and David Mellor
From: "Jeff Wood", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Anthony quoted: "Somebody defined rightists as those who want to be ruled by daddy - who will tell them what is what, and punish them when they're naughty - while leftists want to be ruled by mummy - who will feed them their medicine, wipe their bottoms, and tuck them up in bed at night." Not bad at all I think. I suppose the point is that a real adult becomes their own mother and father both as far as possible. A good start to the process is teaching one's children to shoot: the safe handling of firearms is one of the few adult responsibilities with which a youngster can be entrusted. Perhaps this was one of the reasons the antis got stuck into Kate Hoey. No 10 has joined in, and I predict she gets the hemlock to drink soon after the next election. While I'm here, may I thank those who helped me out on the King's African Rifles, both on-list and privately. You cleared up some obscure points. Am I right in my belief that to have fought in France in WW1, the ancestor must have transferred out to another regiment? Jeff Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] Public PGP Key at: ldap://certserver.pgp.com Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Honours list
From: "Rachel C. Dixon", [EMAIL PROTECTED] >I see that some shooters have made the honours list: > >Richard Faulds MBE (Olympic mens double trap Gold) > >Stephanie Cook MBE (Olympic modern pentathalon Gold) > >Isabel Newstead MBE (Paralympic 10M Air rifle Gold) > > >Regards >Mally >-- >No press coverage, as per usual. > >Steve. Sorry, just catching up with New Year emails... Surprisingly enough, there was actually a half page article about Stephanie Cook in the sports section of the Times last week, including a large picture of her posing with an air pistol. Rachel Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Tony Martin and David Mellor
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] << -- Bear in mind this article in the People was written by the same David Mellor who on national TV when it was pointed out to him that someone could commit a mass murder with a shotgun said "Well, then the spotlight might shift and we may have to think about banning them." I still think he's a tosser! >> Or as the late George Carmen has been quoted as saying... Mr. Mellor was like an ostrich, burying his head in the sand and thus exposing his thinking parts. Kenneth Pantling Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Evening Times telephone poll
From: "jim.craig", [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Strathclyde Evening Times has published the result of its telephone poll on the question 'Should children be taught to shoot'. Contrary to their usual practice of publishing the percentage of votes cast for or against the proposition they merely claim that a 'substantial majority' of votes cast were opposed to the idea of teaching children to shoot. I've written and asked for a breakdown of the figures but I doubt if we'll hear any more from them. Thanks to all who responded. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-Shops flout teenage knife law
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Source: http://www.itn.co.uk/news/20010104/britain/12knives.shtml An investigation has found that teenagers are easily able to buy knives over the counter, despite increasing concern over stabbings following the murder of Damilola Taylor. It is illegal for knives to be sold to children under 16, but two 13-year-old actors who took part in an investigation for ITV's Tonight with Trevor McDonald programme found shops were flouting the law. They were filmed by an undercover camera buying Stanley knives, Swiss Army knives and a set of kitchen knives. The investigation shows that retailers are unwittingly arming under-16s with the kind of weapons which killed 10-year-old Damilola last year in Peckham, south London. Frances Lawrence's headmaster husband Philip was stabbed to death outside his school in Kilburn, north London five years ago. During the programmed, she calls for a knives' amnesty and a review of sentencing for people who carry them. She said: "There is a distinct lack of energy in dealing with the knife problem. "I do feel that anyone who carries a knife is a potential murderer - we shouldn't shut our eyes to that and pussyfoot around." The two young actors featured in the investigation managed to buy knives from four retailers in London without being asked for identification to prove they were over 16. One of the knives even carried a large sticker emphasising that buyers had to be over 16. Mrs Lawrence added: "I think there are many reasons why young people carry knives and I know this because of the work I have carried out with young people. "I think that one thing is this feeling of powerlessness - if they don't feel that they have a sense of power in one area of their lives, then this knife gives them a very false sense of power. "I think it's our job to say to them or try to make them see that carrying a knife is a very cowardly act. "The punishment isn't severe enough and it obviously doesn't act as a deterrent. I would like to see a more severe punishment. "I feel a sense of despair and it just seems to me that a little child like Damilola, the most precious and most vulnerable of all our treasures, and the fact that we can't protect them, is too terrible for words." Analysis Retailers say sorry Investigators for ITV's Tonight with Trevor McDonald used a hidden camera to film the 13-year-old actors shopping for knives - and walking out into the street armed with lethal weapons again and again. Some of the biggest names in British retailing flouted the law by selling knives to the under-aged actor. The final haul included Stanley, Swiss Army, and several kitchen knifes. One of the shops that sold them was close to the North London school where head teacher Philip Lawrence was fatally stabbed five years ago. It was his death that prompted new laws controlling the sale of knives. The retailers caught out include Band Q, Robert Dyas and Blacks. Blacks said it was extremely sorry, Robert Dyas claimed to be treating the matter very seriously, and Blacks said it was not their policy to sell knives to persons under 16. ~~~ So they bought a Swiss Army Knife! This must be one of the most stupid laws ever passed. Even the anti-gun laws aren't as plain daft as this simply because just can't go to your kitchen drawer and get a Colt 1911. Kenneth Pantling Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Legal-Shops flout teenage knife law
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Source: http://www.itn.co.uk/news/20010104/britain/12knives.shtml An investigation has found that teenagers are easily able to buy knives over the counter, despite increasing concern over stabbings following the murder of Damilola Taylor. It is illegal for knives to be sold to children under 16, but two 13-year-old actors who took part in an investigation for ITV's Tonight with Trevor McDonald programme found shops were flouting the law. They were filmed by an undercover camera buying Stanley knives, Swiss Army knives and a set of kitchen knives. The investigation shows that retailers are unwittingly arming under-16s with the kind of weapons which killed 10-year-old Damilola last year in Peckham, south London. Frances Lawrence's headmaster husband Philip was stabbed to death outside his school in Kilburn, north London five years ago. During the programmed, she calls for a knives' amnesty and a review of sentencing for people who carry them. She said: "There is a distinct lack of energy in dealing with the knife problem. "I do feel that anyone who carries a knife is a potential murderer - we shouldn't shut our eyes to that and pussyfoot around." The two young actors featured in the investigation managed to buy knives from four retailers in London without being asked for identification to prove they were over 16. One of the knives even carried a large sticker emphasising that buyers had to be over 16. Mrs Lawrence added: "I think there are many reasons why young people carry knives and I know this because of the work I have carried out with young people. "I think that one thing is this feeling of powerlessness - if they don't feel that they have a sense of power in one area of their lives, then this knife gives them a very false sense of power. "I think it's our job to say to them or try to make them see that carrying a knife is a very cowardly act. "The punishment isn't severe enough and it obviously doesn't act as a deterrent. I would like to see a more severe punishment. "I feel a sense of despair and it just seems to me that a little child like Damilola, the most precious and most vulnerable of all our treasures, and the fact that we can't protect them, is too terrible for words." Analysis Retailers say sorry Investigators for ITV's Tonight with Trevor McDonald used a hidden camera to film the 13-year-old actors shopping for knives - and walking out into the street armed with lethal weapons again and again. Some of the biggest names in British retailing flouted the law by selling knives to the under-aged actor. The final haul included Stanley, Swiss Army, and several kitchen knifes. One of the shops that sold them was close to the North London school where head teacher Philip Lawrence was fatally stabbed five years ago. It was his death that prompted new laws controlling the sale of knives. The retailers caught out include Band Q, Robert Dyas and Blacks. Blacks said it was extremely sorry, Robert Dyas claimed to be treating the matter very seriously, and Blacks said it was not their policy to sell knives to persons under 16. ~~~ So they bought a Swiss Army Knife! This must be one of the most stupid laws ever passed. Even the anti-gun laws aren't as plain daft as this simply because just can't go to your kitchen drawer and get a Colt 1911. Kenneth Pantling Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Shotguns/forensic
From: "Tim Jeffreys", [EMAIL PROTECTED] If it's used at close range, all sorts of give-away debris ends up on the outside of the barrel(s) and the user...especially in a confined space. A sawn-off isn't going to lend itself to long range sniping, so unless the owner of the shotgun is meticulous about cleaning it, some evidence (blood, dust, glass, fibres, etc.) will remain. I recall a television factual forensic gore-fest some time back (Channel 5?) with just such a scenario; bank robber collared because of blood and glass particles on the sawn-off barrel that he'd fired through the glass partition at the poor teller... Tim Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Crime-barmaid murdered
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] BARMAID'S KILLERS MUST BE CAUGHT - PUB BOSS 041616 JAN 10 By Brian Farmer, PA News A barmaid had contemplated calling in sick on the night she was brutally murdered during a pub raid, it emerged today. Janet Fleming, 38, of Ipswich, Sussex, had been suffering from a heavy cold but did not want to let down her boss Andrew Holl, police said. She was killed by a robber shortly after the Ipswich pub at which she worked, closed late on Sunday December 10. Detectives believe that Ms Fleming's head was repeatedly stamped upon by her killer. She died two days after the attack after failing to regain consciousness. "Mr Hull told us that ironically Janet had been thinking about not coming into work that night because she had a heavy cold," said a police spokesman. "He'd spoken to her earlier on and he said she had decided to come in because she didn't want to let him down." Mr Hull, 32, who suffered head and hand injuries during the raid and is still off work, today appeared at a media conference to appeal for help in tracing the raiders. He told how he had said good night to Janet at around 11pm and was leaving the pub a short time later when he was attacked near the door by two masked men. They had forced him into an office and made off with cash after beating him repeatedly over the head with a blunt instrument and brandishing a pistol at him. "They were very violent. I thought I was going to die," said Mr Hull. "When somebody points a gun at you and tells you to get on the floor I think they mean business." Mr Hull said he still suffered nightmares three weeks after the raid and felt distraught about Ms Fleming's death. "She was a lovely woman. Bubbly personality," said Mr Hull. "She certainly didn't deserve to die in the way that she died." He added: "We need to catch these animals before they do this again." Mr Hull said he had called police from inside the pub without realising that Ms Fleming had been attacked outside. Police, who found the barmaid's body near the entrance to the pub, believe that she may have returned after starting to walk home because she heard a disturbance. One witness has told detectives that he saw a masked man apparently jumping or stamping on something near the entrance to the pub. Police suspect the witness may have seen Ms Fleming being attacked. Detective chief Inspector Tim Beach said officers had received around 300 calls from people wanting to give information about the attack. "Mr Hull suffered a terrifying attack at the hands of the men who murdered Janet," said Mr Beach. "Hopefully his bravery in reliving his ordeal to make this appeal will encourage new people to come forward with information about this incident." Police have released a photo-fit picture of a man seen behaving suspiciously near the pub shortly before the raid. They have also issued photo-fit pictures of the home-made masks the two robbers were wearing. Kenneth Pantling Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Misc-Shotguns/forensic
From: "Richard Loweth", [EMAIL PROTECTED] There was a notable case involving just this issue some years ago. A bank clerk was shot dead with a shot gun using Eley cartridges. Some (long) time later the police raided the perpetrator's house. A box of cartridges was found and the shot was found to be the same shot in the victim, despite the fact that the cartridges found were game shooting cartridges, and yet the wad in the body was a clay shooting plastic wad. How? Because it transpired that Eley had wrongly loaded that batch of cartridges with the wrong hardness of shot. Additionally I understand that a badly sawn off barrel, could leave striations in some plastic wads. Your best bet would be to go, perhaps, along the line of cartridge being mis-loaded with a large shot size, and the police find a box of what appear to be a smaller shot size until an intelligent police man or woman suggests that the cartridges be opened and examined. Robert Churchill also made similar errors with cartridge loading. After WWII his company bought a reloaded with game shot many WWII "Home Guard" letter shot and ball cartridges. There is the famous tale recounted by Macdonald Hastings (in his annotated version of Churchill's "Game Shooting" of some ball loaded cartridges slipping through the quality control and being used at a game shoot with amusing effect. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Tony Martin and David Mellor
From: "Richard Loweth", [EMAIL PROTECTED] The fact remains, and we are still not doing enough to continually point it out day after day, that if Tony Martin had been allowed legally to possess in his home non-lethal weapons of defence such as an electric baton or a CS spray then one young man might not be dead and one old man not in prison. Perhaps those who read "The People" could write to Mellor and ask him if he agrees? Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Target-Supplemental Chambers
From: Peter H Jackson, [EMAIL PROTECTED] >It's got to be a component of something, either ammunition >or the barrel. If you permanently insert it (like these >adapters designed to change a .30-06 to .308) then the >barrel needs to be reproved. If it's a removable one >like the ones designed to shoot .22LR through a .223 >then if you are selling it commercially with the .22LR >ammo already inserted it would be a component of ammunition >and would also be required to be proved. FOR THE AVOIDANCE OF DOUBT: There is no offence of manufacturing or selling "unproved" ammunition in Britain, let alone unproved components of ammunition. There is also no offence of altering, repairing or changing the barrel of a small arm without having it proved. The legal requirement for proof or re-proof arises only when the entire small arm is sold, exchanged, pawned, pledged, imported (except privately), exported or kept or exposed for sale, etc. (see sections 108, 109 and 122 of the Gun Barrel Proof Act). In passing, I find it interesting to speculate as to why the offence in Section 108 should apply only where there is a change of ownership, actual or in prospect, of an entire small arm, and then only if money or other goods are to be exchanged as part of the transaction. Looked at from the perspective of a modern nanny state, the omission of individual gun parts and of gifts or repairs or loans seems a rather obvious oversight on the part of the Bill's promoters. I suspect that it was, in fact, no oversight, but rather an example of the sort of respect for personal property which has rather fallen out of favour during last century. Bearing in mind that this was not a government Bill, it seems likely that the gun trade drew a careful distinction between controls to ensure that whole guns offered for sale are reasonably safe, and legislation which might be seen to interfere with the repair or renovation of the inviolable property of a private individual. Perhaps Hansard could shed some light on this, if one had time to look. >If you make ammo for yourself for your own use, it doesn't >have to be proved but commercially sold ammunition does. > >Even American ammunition has a proof mark on the box so the >ammo is legal in Europe. > >Handloaded ammunition sold commercially also has to be >proved, it is marked on the base with an X over the primer >if I recall correctly. > >I'm sure a lot of gun clubs don't realise they're violating >this requirement. There is no such "requirement" in the UK. However, under the rules imposed on our Proof Houses by the Commission Internationale Permanente (CIP) most British cartridge manufacturers voluntarily provide samples of ammunition to be subjected to test by the Proof House, which products, if satisfactory, may carry the Proof House and CIP marks. I stress, this is an entirely voluntary test procedure. The extent to which the measurement, inspection and testing of one batch of ammo in a proof house gun indicates that a different batch of ammo will be safe in a different gun is open to doubt. Perhaps some ammunition manufacturers (or their insurers) are persuaded that proof testing of ammunition offers them some legal protection in the event of a breech explosion. I would hate to think that any major manufacturer places more reliance on such tests than on their own properly-documented and audited quality assurance procedures. Rgds, Peter. www.jacksonrifles.com -- Well, I've been told explicitly that personally imported firearms do have to be proved within 28 days of the import by a guardian of the Birmingham Proof House, and he showed me the regulation. He also pointed out that no-one complies with it, but it does exist (according to him). I'm pretty sure the CIP regs are enforceable under some part or other of the law, I will check on that. In any event, if you alter the barrel of your gun and then sell it on (e.g. by permanently adding a chamber insert) when you sell it, it must be reproved. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-No 10 rebukes Hoey in gun row
From: "John Hurst.", [EMAIL PROTECTED] No 10 rebukes Hoey in gun row The Guardian. Sarah Hall political correspondent Thursday January 4, 2001 Downing Street last night slapped down the outspoken sports minister Kate Hoey after she attacked the ban on handguns introduced after the Dunblane massacre. A spokeswoman stressed Ms Hoey's views, which drew immediate condemnation from anti-gun campaigners, were not shared by the prime minister and were a clear breach of laws banning all handguns introduced in 1997. The careful distancing from the junior minister's views came after the maverick MP for Vauxhall told a shooting magazine fellow Labour MPs had taken a "very unfair attitude" towards legitimate shooting. She claimed the ban had done nothing to prevent criminals getting their hands on weapons and suggested young children should be encouraged to learn shooting. The minister appeared particularly provocative since her comments came barely a week after she contradicted the government line by calling for a return to terracing at Premiership football grounds, which have been all-seater since the Taylor Report into the Hillsborough tragedy. Ms Hoey, an Arsenal fan who learned to shoot as a farmer's daughter in County Antrim, has been no stranger to controversy. She has consistently defended foxhunting, winning plaudits from the Countryside Alliance. -- We all know how keen Tony Blair is to be seen to be "popular" - get those nominations for Kate Hoey in! Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Pol-Kate Hoey
From: "Richard Loweth", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Might I suggest that the "proper" way of both getting Blair to realise the support we wish to give Kate Hoey AND at the same time to express that thanks to her is to write one letter only, direct to Tony Blair at 10 Downing Street or House of Commons asking if he will pass on your (the writer's) thanks to Kate Hoey for her recent remarks etc. etc. This method "contrives somehow a double debt to pay". Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
CS: Target-New Air gunners Equipment
From: "Richard Loweth", [EMAIL PROTECTED] But then, of course, there is a long tradition of BB "machine guns" in the USA, for example the official BB firing .50" BMG for air gunner training. If anyone doubts, I'll post a picture and a reference. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
