CS: Pol-.50
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Occasionally one has some very limited sympathy for the criminals. I sat listening a few years ago to a plea of guilty at Southwark CC for unlawful possession; discharge with intent to endanger life; att. murder(acquitted of the latter) well-known drug dealer in the proverbial BMW was cut up by a white Transit in Balham High Road; he let off a magazine from a Browning Hi-Power at the Transit, mercifully wounding no-one. There but for the grace of God... I mast be a bit slow because I fail to see any reason for sympathy here. Jonathan Laws Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-.50
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Not after the comment about Pistol AD. I was at the last one and so was Lord Cullen and neither of us saw anything that you mention. You say later on Pistol 94, so possibly you are getting confused as to the dates, but Pistol 96 did not have anything going on that was remotely unsavoury, at least from what I saw and I was there for two days, and Cullen was there on one of the days I wasn't. Lord Cullen even commented on how well-regulated the sport appeared. Steve. __ You are right, it was 1995 Anno Domini meeting as my letter to Sandy Ewing, who was then Chief Executive of NRA is dated 6th June, 1995. But even if you went to that meeting, you may not have seen the group I described because they stayed only one day and I used to go every day as I live only 25 miles from Bisley. But the date does not alter the validity of the argument. On another occasion at my club we had a visit form the local Parish Councillors. Our range is in one of 5 ex.military hospital wards, all of which have been converted to civilian leisure use and the councillors (who are in fact our landlords) visit all clubs on site on a fact finding mission. Well, this visit was after Dunblane in the Summer of 1996 and we debated how best to present our sport. My suggestion that we should stick to something very tame and boring like UIT shooting at 25 metres, but the majority opinion was that we should not pretend but show them a Service match with turning targets. When our visitors came one or two male councillors had a go and evidently enjoyed themselves, but at the end of this "presentation" an older woman said that it sent shivers down her spine seeing us shoot at "the pictures of soldiers" and she asked if we enjoyed imagining shooting at people!!! Fortunately, I expected the question and I replied that the targets were no more than means of scoring the shots and that their design was not up to us but was regulated internationally. "Of course we would prefer to shoot at the traditional round bull targets, but if we are to compete in international matches we have to use the prescribed targets." I said. I thought I handled the embarrassing moment rather well, but after they had gone I got a lot of flack from several members, who thought that I was ashamed of what we were doing.etc., etc., I do hope that I have made my point clear - we do depend on public opinion and if, though ignorance, they show concern at what they see, we should try to reassure them, explain what is it all about, rather than bash them with our rights. Our sport is easily linked with violence and crime and we should be wary of any behaviour that might show us in that light. Now, if some members of this list still think that this is "the sensible approach that can only lead to ..!", I am afraid that is all I can offer. But I did not always think this. The time for protests and bloody mindedness was during the Cullen Enquiry! We wasted precious weeks and months examining "evidence" and writing "submissions" when we should have taken the firm stand against our sport being examined and against any recommendations made as regards its future when the massacre had nothing to do with any of us. Even if Hamilton were the Chairman of NRA and His Holiness the Pope at the same time, what he did had nothing to do with me, you, Kenneth and 57,000 other pistol shooters and that is and always will be my opinion. Alex -- My explanation would have been to point out that most target shooting sports have their roots in military practice, even ISSF, so it is hardly surprising the targets look like enemy soldiers. But then you were there, sometimes it is better to use an unsophisticated argument depending on the brain power of who you are talking to. It was important to make submissions to the Cullen Inquiry, that wasn't a mistake, the mistake was that too many people listened to BSSC and the crazy suggestion that we "keep quiet" when everyone should have been writing to their MPs, newspapers, etc. (In fact BSSC actually suggested that only they should make a submission to the inquiry - it didn't even mention any of the criminology arguments). I wrote to every member of the House of Lords and actually got phone calls from peers thanking me for my letter and saying that they had only received one or two others. In at least a few cases those letters made the difference on how the peer voted. However this is crying over spilt milk. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-.50
From: "Earl W", [EMAIL PROTECTED] I was concerned too that at the last "Pistol AD" that there were a number of black people present also. One can most definitely "judge a book by its cover"! Drug dealers and illegal "Yardies" seeking to buy "off-ticket guns" with money made from prostitution and false-passport rackets. It made my flesh shiver to see their brown hands handling fine Smith Wesson pistols and asking "How much". Richard, I do sincerely hope that you are taking the piss! Are you of totally pure heritage, one of the "master race" or are you taking the piss??? My apologies if you are joking. The very basis of the sport of shooting in all its forms, is that anyone of any Nationality, Sex, Ability or Disability (or "Class") can compete against anyone else on a level basis - The Para-Olympics springs to mind. There are not should not be any barriers to anyone starting the sport of shooting as long as they meet the safety requirements to do so. Men, Women, Boys Girls, can all compete on level footing against each other on the same level - WHY HAS THIS NOT BEEN PROMOTED??? At my local club, there is a mix of sexes ages from 17 - 84 of men women, where else at what other clubs/sports do you get such a diversity of individuals (except for SCUBA Diving which costs L1500 to get started in - though interestingly many Shooters, are also Divers) I have competed against Champions, Beginners all in between I have taught Firearms proficiency to friends girlfriends, cousins, nieces, all of whom are now safer, more aware proficient in the subject of firearms ( not believing the anti's BS) than they would otherwise be. Where the shooting organisations fail miserably is to promote the BENEFITS OF SHOOTING, this is what they should concentrate on. The Benefits to the Individual, - Concentration, Dexterity, better health, ingenuity, mental skills - maths, judging distances, wind speed, the effect that the various factors will have on the projectile etc - The Eyesight is maintained through the regular exercise of sighting the firearm, Stigmatism's can be fixed by this method, even individual use of each eye can be achieved - how many non shooters have that skill, definitely a bonus when driving in traffic!!! The Benefits to History, the American West would only have been recorded as a Hollywood version if it was not for the efforts of firearm historians The Benefits to the Economy The Benefits to Community Society - Disciplined, Law abiding, caring, thoughtful individuals who are able to work as a team. -Conservation maintenance of the ranges, resulting in a wider array of wildlife The Benefits to Crime reduction - Lower rates of Burglary in areas where the burglar may encounter an armed householder - how many farms are burgled compared with the same number of houses? - Reduction in attacks on the person where CCW is permitted The Benefits to the Military Police - Development of new technology, If a firearm is crap we say so (SA80) it gets fixed (We aid the semi only versions of the SA80 were crap, but they banned them before the manufacturers took notice) -Customising aftermarket add ons/improvements that can be adopted or bought by the serving personnel -Developing techniques in competition that is "state of the art" long before the military / Police adopt it -Improved ballistics cartridge/powder development (Hunters in Alaska Finland) - OO Buckshot - Developed for hunting larger mammals - later adopted by Police Military to hunt Humans! -Police Military teams can compete alongside shooters, which is of benefit to all concerned, increases proficiency, respect among the teams, comments on equipment selection, technique -Snipers are really Stalkers, who at time of war hunt Humans -Shooters have a wealth of knowledge which is shared openly that the Police / Military don't have E.G. Issuing a beginners gun - Revolver / Exposed hammer auto, instead of an advanced shooters gunThe Glock 17 9mm... ie. the correct tool for the job. These are just some of the points that we the associations should promote each day, everyday every chance we get. Shooting unlike so many other sports is open to EVERYONE who wants to take part (as long as they are of sound mind), no matter what the condition of their bodies, background or race - how much trouble has there been at the Olympics between Shooting Teams compared with every other sport present, a lot less I'd wager. My Apologies again if you were joking. Can anyone add other benefits of shooting to the list - could be useful at the March In March N.B. Shooters ARE the definition of Sportsmen / Sportswomen / Sportsperson. WE are a commodity that should be revered Regards EW -- Being one of
CS: Pol-.50
From: "Robert Dashwood", [EMAIL PROTECTED] I was concerned too that at the last "Pistol AD" that there were a number of black people present also. One can most definitely "judge a book by its cover"! Drug dealers and illegal "Yardies" seeking to buy "off-ticket guns" with money made from prostitution and false-passport rackets. It made my flesh shiver to see their brown hands handling fine Smith Wesson pistols and asking "How much". This really is silly. I have been practicing at the Bar for a fair few years and have seen more unpleasant facets of one's fellow man than one would wish to. I have yet to see anyone with "mugger": "child abuser" or "murderer" tattooed on them making them stand out from the crowd. The last black chap I saw with a gun was carrying a rather nice pair of Boss, of which I was most envious, and had been at Eton. If he was a danger to anyone, it was to those on the other side of his takeover bids! That there are black criminal gangs and well-armed is known; there are also Asian, Chinese and various flavours of white UK armed criminals around. The key is that they are criminals first; the ethnicity is unimportant. Poaching where I live is a problem, skillfully handled by local police, and all those who have pointed their off-ticket 12 bores at me have been locals. If only they'd ask before taking the pigeons and rabbits, for there are more than enough. I would be surprised if any sensible criminal would attend a legit. event to scout for weapons; much more discrete is the dodgy pub, or even a quick trip to E. Europe: out by Squeezyjet and back by ferry. Eurostar occasionally searches luggage. Pre pistol ban it was always cheaper to buy unlawfully than to turn up at a shop with a licence and buy over the counter, or so some of my clients assured me. Occasionally one has some very limited sympathy for the criminals. I sat listening a few years ago to a plea of guilty at Southwark CC for unlawful possession; discharge with intent to endanger life; att. murder(acquitted of the latter) well-known drug dealer in the proverbial BMW was cut up by a white Transit in Balham High Road; he let off a magazine from a Browning Hi-Power at the Transit, mercifully wounding no-one. There but for the grace of God... Forgive the small rant and poor keyboard skills, but the Bar still believes in Phlogiston and has some way to go to find the 20th.century in my case. -- Er, I'm pretty sure Richard was being sarcastic! Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-.50
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] I was concerned too that at the last "Pistol AD" that there were a number of black people present also. One can most definitely "judge a book by its cover"! Drug dealers and illegal "Yardies" seeking to buy "off-ticket guns" with money made from prostitution and false-passport rackets. It made my flesh shiver to see their brown hands handling fine Smith Wesson pistols and asking "How much". _ I don't think they would be asking: "How much?", if they were drug dealers, but you can most certainly judge the book by its cover and that's why the "comprehensively educated" do not read books! I don't know whether you are serious, but I was shooting more than once on the Gallery at Bisley and listened the conversations on the next firing point. "I bought this (a 1911) because it would flatten anybody with one shot!" said one. "But you only have seven in the magazine. I feel better with 15." replied the other. "Definitely not in the Olympic class." I thought looking at their targets, but very dangerous for the survival of the sport in the country where target shooting was the only legal reason for owning pistols. Alex -- Actually I think Richard has a point Alex, for all you knew they were talking about shooting steel plates. I have to wonder whether your perception is colouring your views because really I have never encountered the things you say you have. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-.50
From: "Richard Loweth", [EMAIL PROTECTED] I was concerned too that at the last "Pistol AD" that there were a number of black people present also. One can most definitely "judge a book by its cover"! Drug dealers and illegal "Yardies" seeking to buy "off-ticket guns" with money made from prostitution and false-passport rackets. It made my flesh shiver to see their brown hands handling fine Smith Wesson pistols and asking "How much". Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-.50
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Alex, you seem to want to misconstrue nearly everything I write. I'll have one more go then give up... If that's a firm promise, Kenneth, I will try to explain, but without inserting yet again everything that was written before. My reference to ~Ferocious looking characters, unshaven, unwashed, wearing camouflage uniforms, pot bellied with knives sticking out of their boots ... was to a specific TV programme in the aftermath of Dunblane. I don't know whether they were real or hired actors, but I have seen them myself. The last NPA Anno Domini meeting was visited by a load of flower-power types, with "Last of the Mohicans" hair cuts, painted faces, wearing camouflage gear and accompanied by their women and many small, unwashed children! They arrived in an ex.military vehicle - one of those very high, six wheeled, lightly armoured troop transports, except that they cut out the roof and made a kind of double decker out of it, from which they waved to onlookers with "peace brother" and all that rubbish. I noticed that they were well photographed, as were several Brenguns on open display (deactivated of course, buy who could be sure) and stands that sold body armour, T bar truncheons and similar merchandise "so essential for target shooting". I also noticed several characters walking around bare to the waist with long beards and pony-tails, wearing holstered 1911s and positively festooned with loaded magazines. Not many, only 5 or 6, but they lowered us all into the pits!!! I actually wrote to NRA and suggested that ex.military vehicles should not be allowed into the camp at similar gatherings and that the "participants" should be asked not wear holstered pistols but to leave them in the boots of their cars and soon afterwards the rules had been tightened in line with what I suggested. That was in 1994 and the 1995 Anno Domini meeting appeared less "objectionable", but I think that it was already too late. I don't want to start yet another boring debate about tolerance, but I would like to say that I genuinely support all sports, but people who need body armour, T truncheons and like to drive around looking like Colombian bandits have no place in any sport that depends as much as we do on good public image as ours does. if anybody asks what 50 cal shooting is, that is terrible! Why?~ Pardon? As Harold Macmillan said of one of Khruschev's outbursts in the UN - could I have a translation of that please. In my original post, I asked what 50cal shooting was all about, because I have never seen a 50cal rifle, never heard of it being used for any sporting purpose. Military used it for long range sniping (definitely not a sport), large calibre rifles were used as anti-tank weapons (not effectively) and Browning Machine Gun is not a target rifle.I have been at several HBSA meeting at with the 50cal had been referred to as "anti-material" rifle. So, my genuine question led to immediate assumption that I approved of a ban, that I was prepared to sacrifice somebody else's sport in order to save mine, which was all product of an active imagination as I neither said nor implied any of those things. I was referred to as a Luddite, TR was not to be missed and even the NRA was dragged into this sterile argument. Oh! You mean democracy. Well, that finished in this country a few years back when elective dictatorship took over. Maybe you haven't noticed yet. Democracy always appears as a dictatorship to any minority, but let us not go over that again! ~In terms of publicly perceived danger 50 calibre is somewhat above any other discipline that I can think of.~ I responded: You must be joking here, 90% of the population have never heard of it. You responded ~But the government has heard of it.~ Sorry Alex but you quite clearly wrote ~ publicly perceived ~ you've just moved the goal posts. No, I have not, but I tried to tell you that the government and its agents, if it so chooses, will present 50cal rifles as especially dangerous and then the public will be told to provoke demands for the ban. ~But had I called him a Luddite, told him that he did not know what he was taking about (even though he didn't) bashed myself in the chest and demanded my rights, I am sure he would have walked away convinced that the pistol ban was the best thing since sliced bread!~ You said that you have had enough of "sensible answers" and that the time has come to be bloody minded - or was it someone else that wrote that!? I have tried to illustrate our dependence on good public relations and especially the very urgent need to get the public opinion on our side. I really do believe that a "bloody minded small minority" is less likely to get anywhere in our flawed democracy. As Steve says you have stereotyped me as an unthinking boor. Your
CS: Pol-.50
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Alex, you seem to want to misconstrue nearly everything I write. I'll have one more go then give up... For clarity's sake I will preface quotes from your posting between ~ ~ marks. ~Ferocious looking characters, unshaven, unwashed, wearing camouflage uniforms, pot bellied with knives sticking out of their boots ... get the picture?~ No, I don't get the picture. In nearly 30 years I have never shot with characters like you describe. You must mix with some rum types. ~But you are not fighting the government, are you! You are fighting me and people like me! ~ I partially agree with you, I am fighting the misrule of the present government and I am fighting for all shooting sports. If that means I am against people who would sacrifice one person's sport to save their own, and you seem to be one of those, yes I am fighting you too. TR, but if anybody asks what 50 cal shooting is that is terrible! Why?~ Pardon? As Harold Macmillan said of one of Khruschev's outbursts in the UN - could I have a translation of that please. ~When did it start!? Well over 2,000 years ago in Athens.~ Oh! You mean democracy. Well, that finished in this country a few years back when elective dictatorship took over. Maybe you haven't noticed yet. ~In terms of publicly perceived danger 50 calibre is somewhat above any other discipline that I can think of.~ I responded: You must be joking here, 90% of the population have never heard of it. You responded ~But the government has heard of it.~ Sorry Alex but you quite clearly wrote ~ publicly perceived ~ you've just moved the goal posts. Alex, it was you who said: ~your remarks are well and truly out of place~ about me. So when you answer: ~Why? Are they? Can you be more specific (although I would rather you were not).~ I find it a bit difficult to understand what you are getting at. ~But had I called him a Luddite, told him that he did not know what he was taking about (even though he didn't) bashed myself in the chest and demanded my rights, I am sure he would have walked away convinced that the pistol ban was the best thing since sliced bread!~ As Steve says you have stereotyped me as an unthinking boor. Your remarks are not well taken. ~You keep your dislikes to yourself and if you do not see any point in fighting to save Bisley, don't!~ Plainly you have not read what I wrote: referring to TR I said: I wouldn't miss the Bisley type of full bore rifle shooting if it ceased to exist tomorrow. However, I am prepared to do everything in my power to make sure it doesn't because any type of shooting sport is worth preserving. How you manage to get from that to ~if you do not see any point in fighting to save Bisley, don't~ leaves me gasping. I visit Bisley 2 or 3 times a year and love going there, however I don't consider Bisley worth saving if it means I have to play the turncoat and sacrifice other shooters. ~I genuinely have never seen a 50 cal rifle and did not know the courses of fire nor anything about it, other than its military origins.~ Perhaps one of the 50 cal owners might like to comment on that but I think the civilian 50 cal shooters predated the military. However, if you want an example of shooting with military origins try TR. As I understand it, it really got its boost from the 19th Century Volunteer Movement and isn't there something about defence of the realm in the NRA's constitution? I would hasten to add, I see nothing wrong in that but you seem to have a problem with it. Incidentally the only 50 cal rifle I have ever seen was at Bisley. It was for sale, not being shot. Alex, all I am saying is that I support all shooting sports and I now publicly undertake not to try to sacrifice another person's shooting to save mine. All I ask is that you do the same. Kenneth Pantling -- Given that 7.62mm is no longer the standard military calibre, I could make just as strong an argument for banning it as the argument for banning .50. Who needs to be able to shoot a 7.62mm at 1,000 yards? The arguments for banning it are exactly the same as for banning .50BMG. The differences between banning handguns v. banning TR and banning 50 v. banning TR are quite large, but any TR shooter arguing for a ban on .50BMG (or rather, saying they don't care if it is banned) is being truly naive, IMO. I think perhaps the .50 shooters could help themselves out by inviting along some TR shooters for a look-see though. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-.50
From: "Richard Loweth", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ferocious looking characters, unshaven, unwashed, wearing camouflage uniforms, pot bellied with knives sticking out of their boots ... get the picture? If they were playing violins I would consider banning music! What? Do you mean like Nigel Kennedy? Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-.50
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] And your point is? If you seriously think that rapid fire competitions caused the demise of pistol shooting then you aren't on the same planet as me. No, Kenneth, I don't think that rapid fire had much to do with it! Ferocious looking characters, unshaven, unwashed, wearing camoufage uniforms, pot bellied with knives sticking out of their boots ... get the picture? If they were playing violins I would consider banning music! However I have competed in Police Pistol, Military Pistol and conventional slow fire competitions. I now shoot muzzle loading pistol and gallery rifle competitions. I have also shot clay pigeon competetions and actively engage in rough shooting. So which of my "type of shooting" don't you think is going to survive. Probably none of it. (that is my OPINION, but I neither wish it nor support any ban) Frankly if I really thought that we were fighting JUST to keep the "Bisley type of shooting" going, and I take it you mean TR, then I wouldn't bother. I support shooting generally, not just my, fairly catholic, interests. I also do not agree that our opinions are irrelevant, if I did I wouldn't be continuing the fight. But you are not fighting the government, are you! You are fighting me and people like me! You think it is OK to say that you would not miss TR, but if anybody asks what 50 cal shooting is that is terrible! Why? What really matters is what the government thinks that the population wants When did that start? If it was true we wouldn't be subject to such a lot of lying propaganda everytime they want to ban something. When did it start!? Well over 2,000 years ago in Athens. In terms of publicly perceived danger 50 calibre is somewhat above any other discipline that I can think of. You must be joking here, 90% of the population have never heard of it. But the government has heard of it. And whed they send a TV team to investigate they will find a few shooters, keen to demonstrate how a 50 cal can kill a man through a double brick wall, or penetrate lightly armoured vehicle..! And if they don't find anybody willing to demostrate that, they will pose as shooters and do it themselves. Then the public will hear about it (go back and read about "ferocious looking characters)! your remarks are well and truly out of place Why? Are they? Can you be more specific (although I would rather you were not). Only a few days ago I was talking to a head master of a local school and he told me that he thought that the government did the right thing to ban "all guns" after Dunblane. I think I managed to convince him that he was wrong. But had I called him a Luddite, told him that he did not know what he was taking about (even though he didn't) bashed myself in the chest and demanded my rights, I am sure he would have walked away convinced that the pistol ban was the best thing since sliced bread! Would it not be more sensible and less boring if we were to agree to differ and say no more about 50 cal? You keep your dislikes to yourself and if you do not see any point in fighting to save Bisley, don't! As for myself, I like all forms of shooting, but available time does not allow me to participate in everything and I genuinely have never seen a 50 cal rifle and did not know the courses of fire nor anything about it, other than its military origins. Alex -- Alex, you're attempting to condone improper behaviour. If a TV crew dresses up as shooters and ponces about with a .50 (very unlikely, IMO) then _they_ are doing something wrong, not the shooters. They are the ones who should be complained about, not the shooters. That is why we have the ITC etc (although they don't do a lot of good). Also, this opinion of shooters wearing camo gear etc. is nonsensical gibberish, and the reason quite frankly why so many non-TR shooters do look down on TR shooters. It's a myth. The extent of shooters wearing camo gear are a few diehards out on the range in cold weather attempting to keep warm with cheap army surplus gear. IPSC and UKPSA rules specifically prohibit wearing it, I might add. As do NRA rules and the rules of just about every other target shooting organisation I can think of. Stop repeating stereotypes, you're helping no-one by doing so. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-.50
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Alex Hamilton wrote: Synchronised Swiming is not a sport. It a very small part of Swiming, which is practiced by many thousands in UK alone - probably millions worldwide. Well if synchronised swimming is a very small part of swimming then .50 Rifle is a very small part of shooting and should be treated with respect as such. showing lines of ferocious looking characters blasting away with shotguns and large magasine capacity pistols at humanoid targets at the rate of 15 rounds in 5 seconds until the targets competely disintergrated and they were ankle deep in fired brass and empty magazines. And 99.99% of great British women cried in agony when they heard that that such harmless and worthwhile sport was in danger... then signed the Snowdrop petition twice And your point is? If you seriously think that rapid fire competitions caused the demise of pistol shooting then you aren't on the same planet as me. You will need to accept and quickly too that "Bisley type of shooting" is better able to survive without your support than your type of shooting (you have not told us what that was) without our support, but that is somewhat academical now because both our opinions are truly irrelevant. I was a founder member of the UKPSA Council and actively competed for about 5 years at national level. However I have competed in Police Pistol, Military Pistol and conventional slow fire competitions. I now shoot muzzle loading pistol and gallery rifle competitions. I have also shot clay pigeon competetions and actively engage in rough shooting. So which of my "type of shooting" don't you think is going to survive. Frankly if I really thought that we were fighting JUST to keep the "Bisley type of shooting" going, and I take it you mean TR, then I wouldn't bother. I support shooting generally, not just my, fairly catholic, interests. I also do not agree that our opinions are irrelevant, if I did I wouldn't be continuing the fight. What really matters is what the government thinks that the population wants When did that start? If it was true we wouldn't be subject to such a lot of lying propaganda everytime they want to ban something. In terms of publicly perceived danger 50 calibre is somewhat above any other discipline that I can think of. You must be joking here, 90% of the population have never heard of it. your remarks are well and truly out of place I merely asked for consideration of other people's shooting interests. I don't not withdraw that remark or apologise for it. AT the moment the public are disinterested and that is our great loss, so concentrate on getting them on our side and there might yet be hope fo us. Sorry but we are fighting a propaganda machine in the government and media that we can't beat. All we can do is make a real nuisance of ourselves to the extent that they don't think we're worth it. That means fighting every step and not throwing over other shooter's interests to save your own. Kenneth Pantling Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-.50
From: "niel fagan", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Oh how reasonable a reply. But I have seen very similar ones from those defending their "self-actions" on the previous bans ie the NRA , and the Deer Society, and the many other self-interest groups who junked someone else's sport to help them keep their own. snip You have taken up Gallery Rifle, oh that new sport with not so many shooters, using what the ACPO would love to see set aside, those high capacity lever actions, h. slash There are over 40 shooters of 50/55 cal rifles in private ownership, and use, here in the UK trim Tom PS the ACPO really doesn't have to do anything, they can leave it to the shooters to sell each other out. ~ Tom's hit this one squarely on the head, those of us who like the bigger calibres (my personal fave. is .6 of an inch all bar 4 thou. "true bore") along with gallery rifles (esp. in PISTOL calibres, mines a .38/.357 MAGNUM BTW) have become an expendable resource to various of the shooting organizations, infighting promoted by them and the state of mind they require of their members can also be a real problem. This week I met two shooters I didn't know here at work, one has converted to bow sports only and finds it much nicer than the carpet humping (.22 indoor prone) league shooting he'd given up to take-up full bore pistol, which when that was banned meant going back or changing directions, the lack of aggro., at the moment, means bow sports suit him very well. The other who shares the same office still shoots, full bore mil. (he's pissed at loosing his ar15, then his pistols) rifle (bolt action) and gallery rifle, also having given up carpet humping. Both agreed the selling out by the appeasers, along with the emotional bias they lend the press from within the shooting world is probably one of the most damaging things to our "minority" sports. If you look carefully at every slightly different shooting activity they can all be considered minorities, and look what happened when the ethnic minorities got their act together, yes they do still fight amongst themselves, but its rarely seen by the public, if you can't loose your contempt, at least keep it private! Niel, still an occasional carpet humper, and I've got a gold somewhere to prove it! Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-.50
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Alex Hamilton's comment exhibits the kind of Luddite mentality that is in danger of killing our sport. The same attitude applied to golf would have everyone playing with one club. He should perhaps remember that many of us were first taught to shoot in the army and then transferred the skills we acquired into civilian life. If it were not for the numbers and diversity of the shooting community he should understand that not only would his particular type of shooting be prohibitively expensive it would also be a lot harder to pursue as many ranges would not be able to survive if they were only patronised by 'gravel-bellies'. Tony Jeeves -- I have to say in equal measure I don't like this disparagement of people who shoot TR or MR any more than I like practical shooters or .50 shooters being put down either. Most of them are the same people in my experience! The only thing I can say against TR is that the NRA seems to forget that there are other fullbore shooting disciplines as I grow increasingly frustrated at their attitude towards 300m (with the range now closed six months out of the year, mind-numbingly daft as it has covered points and more likely to be used by TR shooters as well during the winter) and also their gross stupidity, subsidising GR and various other events at the Imperial and doing very little to promote them. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-.50
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] To claim that something is a sport implies that a large number of people are participating. The fact that something is shot in Switzerland or USA does not constitute a sport here - I wish it did, but we have to be realistic. Ah! And just how many people do synchronised swimming I wonder and that's in the Olympics. Incidentally full bore target rifle isn't so where does that leave your sport. __ Cricket is not in the Olympics either but it is still a sport. I think Steve's example (balooning) was better in terms of rarity, because Synchronised Swiming is not a sport. It a very small part of Swiming, which is practiced by many thousands in UK alone - probably millions worldwide. There is also an important point in that neither the balooninsts nor the swimers use any device or implement that could be used to kill at a distance or to rob a building society! I am not being flippant! Alex your argument is total rubbish. Following your line of thought no new shooting discipline would ever get off the ground. Practical pistol, one of the greatest boosts the shooting sports got in the '70s, certainly would never have started. Yes, I remember several TV programmes during the post Dunblane build up to the pistol ban, showing lines of ferocious looking characters blasting away with shotguns and large magasine capacity pistols at humanoid targets at the rate of 15 rounds in 5 seconds until the targets competely disintergrated and they were ankle deep in fired brass and empty magazines. And 99.99% of great British women cried in agony when they heard that that such harmless and worthwhile sport was in danger... then signed the Snowdrop petition twice Alex as far as interest is concerned I wouldn't miss the Bisley type of full bore rifle shooting if it ceased to exist tomorrow. You will need to accept and quickly too that "Bisley type of shooting" is better able to survive without your support than your type of shooting (you have not told us what that was) without our support, but that is somewhat academical now because both our opinions are truly irrelevant. What really matters is what the government thinks that the population wants and it terms of publicly perceived danger 50 calibre is somewhat above any other discipline that I can think of. However, I am prepared to do everything in my power to make sure it doesn't because any type of shooting sport is worth preserving. Could you show the same sort of consideration please? Had you read my reply to Tom Charnock (appered on this list yesterday) you would have known that I am not just prepared but that I am actually doing everything I can to save any sport, including foxhunting, and your remarks are well and truly out of place. Too much has been compromised away already in the name of eing realistic, its time to be bloody minded. This is where I have to disagree and say that the only thing that stands between us and the government (read "ban") is the Great British Public and we will not endear ourselves to them by demanding our rights and by being bloody minded. AT the moment the public are disinterested and that is our great loss, so concentrate on getting them on our side and there might yet be hope fo us. Alex -- Alex, if you think the public in general can perceive any difference between TR and shooting .50s I think you are being naive. I think we are in danger here of letting the police define the context of the debate. Rifles are almost never used in crime in this country or any other European country for that matter, period, regardless of action type or calibre. There is no danger. This is merely paranoia on the part of ACPO, brought on by reading some of the silly stories that have come out of the US. None of which are even remotely relevant here at all, even if they were true, which they aren't. Also I think taking a swipe at practical pistol is unhelpful. I really don't think it would have mattered what type of target shooting was portrayed on TV, and I have to say I don't recall seeing any footage of practical or anything else for more than a fraction of a second. The issue was never really debated, it was a pure kneejerk reaction. If what you are doing to help shooting sports is to say that it is okay for .50s and practical pistol to be banned, then you aren't helping. Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-50 cal
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] If you read my reply to Tom Charnock email, Paul, you would have known that I do more for you that you do for me and that I am spending more that anyone half a working week every week on trying to do what I can for all shooting sports. All that aside, do bear in mind that you have no "right" to do anything and no guarantee of freedom beyound that that the Joe Public or the Sun Reader is willing to tolerate. Calling people names whenever they disagree with you will get us all banned. I never said that shooting 50 calibre rifles endengers anything. I asked the question whether it did. Did you not see a sign like this (?) at the end of that sentence? Alex Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-.50
From: "Tom Charnock", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Oh how reasonable a reply. But I have seen very similar ones from those defending their "self-actions" on the previous bans ie the NRA , and the Deer Society, and the many other self-interest groups who junked someone else's sport to help them keep their own. Just for interest ask the NRA for a copy of their submission to the Home Office on 50cal shooting, that sells it out too. Seems they looking to add a new power limit, much closer to 308 for all shooting on Bisley. For me, your reply does not cut any ice, and it concerns me that you spend so much time "lobbying" for gun interests (yours no doubt). It would be too much to hope that it is for ALL SHOOTING Sports, and not just the ones that you, Mr Hamilton approve of. You have taken up Gallery Rifle, oh that new sport with not so many shooters, using what the ACPO would love to see set aside, those high capacity lever actions, h. Yes, I could be uncomplimentary about YOUR sport, though I could not taint it so foully with the dubious mention of "sniping", though you so ungenerously spotlight my 50cal shooting sport with it. There are over 40 shooters of 50/55 cal rifles in private ownership, and use, here in the UK. It is NOT a "new" sport, the guns have been about, and shot regularly since WWII (Boyes). The technical change to 50BMG was by ordinary shooters, to enhance long range target shooting, which after the civilians mastered it, the military came along for their use. The last UK shoot (FEB 2001) had over 20 shooters present and 3 of the 4 UK privately-owned Barrett rifles present. The busiest shoot last year had over 35 shooters present. WE are a group of dedicated shooters, we have spent a small fortune on our rifles (up to 6,000) and every time you pull the trigger that's at least another 2. We have to shoot in the week, so losing a days pay (this to fit in with military ranges use). We have occasional visits from special branch, and get heaps of bleatings from our local Firearms Officers. We can now add to that the whining of (supposedly) fellow shooters, looking to appease the ACPO with this years sacrifice of someone else's special interest, and all based upon a person who has never seen a 50 used, nor understands what its about. If that is the basis for your lobbying, then maybe its you that will do worst for shooting. Tom PS the ACPO really doesn't have to do anything, they can leave it to the shooters to sell each other out. If this was an Olympic sport then we have a BAG-FULL of Golds Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-.50
From: "Richard Loweth", [EMAIL PROTECTED] I personally do not think that anybody should be allowed to own any gun of a type that I personally do not shoot. And those should be strictly licensed. Furthermore no-one has any use of military and police type weapons such as pistols, carbines or large magazine rifles. If people want to shoot these sort of things then they should go and join the Army! -- Okay, enough sarcasm for one day ;-) Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-.50
From: "Alex Hamilton", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Actually, Tom, I have never seen a 50 cal rifle and certainly never heard or seen one being shot. I shoot regularly at Bisley and other MoD ranges and although I shoot Target Rifle up to 1000 yds. Match Rifle is shot up to 1200 and they do not use 50 calibre. To claim that something is a sport implies that a large number of people are participating. The fact that something is shot in Switzerland or USA does not constitute a sport here - I wish it did, but we have to be realistic. I was actually a well known pistol shooter before the ban and I lost 6 pistols as a result of it. Then, shooting rifle was of secondary interest to me, but I took up gallery rifle, small bore rifle and classic rifle disciplines after the ban. I never did own a self-loading fullbore rifle, but was going to buy an AK-47 if it had not been baned. I spend much of my time on political lobbying, writing and similar activities in an attempt to resist future oppressive legislation of any kind and especially the gradual tightening of gun control legislation. I am fortunate in that I was able to retire at 51, so I have time to spend up to 3 full working days each week trying to save what is left of shooting sport, but that does not mean that my efforts have been or will result in anything worthwhile - I just do it because I feel that that is the right thing to do. Therefore, your comments (or may I call them the outburst) are not just totally misplaced, but you will not endear yourself to anyone outside the sport with that attitude. In fact, you are probably undoing what little people like me have been able to achive and I emphasise the "little" although it was not for want of trying. I don't want any type of shooting banned, but as I have not seen 50 cal being used anywhere, I was asking what it was used for here - never mind Switzerland and USA! There was also an implied question as to whether it is better to introduce fringe shooting activities that could lead to a wider ban, or to stick with the well established disciplines and not test the patience of the legislators. Well, I am still not sure of the answer to that and your reply has not added anything to the argument. Alex -- .50 BMG can't be used at Bisley, it's used at Ash ranges though. The primary arguments against banning it are (a) it's daft; standard lead core or mild steel core .50 BMG is nothing special in terms of lethality compared to say a .338 Lapua Magnum etc.; (b) if handguns are too small and .50s are too big, then they can get away with banning anything based on spurious arguments about size. Goldilocks gun laws. BTW to say something is a sport does not imply there are large numbers of people participating. How many people race balloons around the world? Is that a sport? Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-.50
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Alex Hamilton said: To claim thatsomething is a sport implies that a large number of people are participating. The fact that something is shot in Switzerland or USA does not constitute a sport here - I wish it did, but we have to be realistic. Ah! And just how many people do synchronised swimming I wonder and that's in the Olympics. Incidentally full bore target rifle isn't so where does that leave your sport. Alex your argument is total rubbish. Following your line of thought no new shooting discipline would ever get off the ground. Practical pistol, one of the greatest boosts the shooting sports got in the '70s, certainly would never have started. Alex as far as interest is concerned I wouldn't miss the Bisley type of full bore rifle shooting if it ceased to exist tomorrow. However, I am prepared to do everything in my power to make sure it doesn't because any type of shooting sport is worth preserving. Could you show the same sort of consideration please? Too much has been compromised away already in the name of being realistic, its time to be bloody minded. Kenneth Pantling Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-.50
From: "Tom Charnock", [EMAIL PROTECTED] CLIPPED, From: "Alex Hamilton", INTERNET:[EMAIL PROTECTED] So, what is the attraction of .50 cal? Very good for long range sniping? Is that a sport? Hunting of game and vermin I understand. I also recognise and accept target shooting. I am also in favour of the concept of legal preparedness for self-defence. Where does 50 cal fit in any of these? === Thank you Alex. I guess that as my hobby is outside of your personal comfort zone it needs to be trashed. It was "thinking" souls like you who agreed readily that semi-auto rifles had no "proper" use (as did the Deer Society, Bisley gravel-bellies etc) I lost my HK G3 following that display of comrade support. Then the pistols came up for trashing. Again the limp-wristed, "lets appease the Government" brigade said lets ban them. So again, I lost my pistols, and another segment of my hobby ended Now, with your selfish, inwardly looking righteous support, you would have me lose another element of my hobby. Just when will you be happy to stop trashing, legal, legitimate sports?? What do the 50cal shooters do?? In the UK we have about 5 or 6 shoots per year, out to 1,200m. There is a yearly shoot in Switzerland, and dozens in the USA each year. Your sneer at "sniping" (with the intended nasty connotations) is in reality the ability to improve the techniques of shooting, firearm design, ammunition loading, and ability to read the environment, to try and beat the current 5 shot World 50cal Record of 2-5/8 inch at 1,000yds That's what my hobby is about, so instead of supporting the latest ban from the ACPO why don't you get on and support ALL shooters, as no doubt when its your turn to lose your element of shooting, you will want (AND, DESPITE YOUR ATTITUDE TO MY SPORT, WILL GET) my support Tom C Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Learn More. Surf Less. Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Topics You Choose. http://www.topica.com/partner/tag01
CS: Pol-50 calibre
From: "M-P", [EMAIL PROTECTED] Can any body advise how this proposed ban will affect .50 Cal. BLACK POWDER. Rifles and Muskets/Shotguns For some time now I have been wanting to purchase a .50 Cal. Flint lock rifle for Deer stalking. Comments please, Rgds, Clive Y2K A Cynic is what a Romantic calls a realist.. -- There is no proposed ban, but ACPO wants one. Rather than sitting worrying about how it might affect you I suggest writing to the FCC at 50 Queen Anne's Gate, London, SW1H 9AT and telling them it's a bad idea! Steve. Cybershooters website: http://www.cybershooters.org List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ T O P I C A http://www.topica.com/t/17 Newsletters, Tips and Discussions on Your Favorite Topics
