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RE: OPPOSE THE WAR! We are going to ruin Iraq to get the oil. Who's next?

[GaryJeffers]

My Fellow Cypherpunks,

 
Nomen Nescio writes

Gary Jeffers writes:

The purpose of the coming Iraq war is to steal their oil. After we get 
 Iraq oil, which arab country is next? If U. State can get away with the
theft of Iraq, then why not just keep on stealing?
The beneficiaries of this war are:
1. United State:
2. Corporations, connected.
3. The ruling elite families.
4. The Zionists.

Nomen Nescio writes
Even if all this were true, so what? All of the groups above woulddo better things with the oil. The represent the forces of enterprise,initiative and enlightenment in the world today. 
OH, WHERE TO START?
How about United State(s)?
Here are a few of the items:

1. We got the American land by alternating 
 1.slaughtering Indians, goto 2.
 2. make peace treaty, goto 3
 3. break peace treaty, goto 1
Its bad enough that we killed the Indians, but dishonoring ourselfs by breaking our word is just beyond the pale.
oh yes, we used germ warfare - the infected blankets. This was back in the old days when we had "moral fiber".

2. We got silly and got into WW1. Its ok to get silly but don't get into a WW with it.

3. By crushing Germany with reparations we helped start WW2 - basically a continuation of WW1 ("the war to end all wars").

4. FDR forced the Japs into war by embargoing steel and oil to them. He also silenced the Pearl Harbor attack alarm.

5. We had the fire storm bombings of the German cities.

6. After Japan was pushing hard for a peace treaty, Truman unnecessarily dropped 2 fission bombs on Jap cities.

7. Johnson's Gulf of Tolken resolution, after his Tolken attack lie.

8. Alice Glasspie, US Ambassadore to Iraq, tells Saddam that "Iraq's relations with Kuwait Iraq's business" and thus starts Desert Storm war.
 Saddam is fooled into attacking. THE US STARTED THE WAR!

9. Wasn't it the Kuwait Ambassadore's kid who lied about the premature Kuwait babies being taken out of the incubators by evil Iraqis and then 
 incubators taken to Iraq. US Press ate this lie up and fed it to US people. This got US people sentiment up for war.

10. We defeat Iraq in DESERT STORM war and then throw giangantically expensive victory away by leaving Saddam in power.

11. Then to force Iraq people to get rid of Saddam, we imbargo Iraq's oil and thus starve millions of people for years.

12 Previous imbargo, Cuba still going strong - for decades. We put millions of people in poverty to encourage people to overthrow Castro.
 Say! Do Saddam and Castro eat well?

13. Spanish American war started when one of our warships accidentally explodes. Captain thought it was an accident. Hearst press 
 propagandises that Spain did it to start war. We started another war.

14. 9/11 done by CIA, Zionists, corporations, other U.S. elements and ruling elites to start war to steal arab countrieS oil. - Arabs blamed.
 WHO BENEFITS?!

15. Bush the Elder, former CIA chief and oil family man becomes US president.
 A few elections later, his son Bush Jr.(govenor of Texas) becomes president after unbelievable close election - decided in brother 
 govenors(son of former CIA chief) Florida state after lots of voter fraud and JUDICIAL DECISION. HEY! IS SOMETHING QUEER GOING ON HERE?

16. Oh yes, we put Saddam into power and supported him in Iran war. We also supplied him hugely with weapons.

16,. I believe that it was not too long ago that we supported Bin Laden?

17. Gun control

18. Private Federal Reserve and IRS. 


fools see 17 and 18.
Democracy see 4, 6, 7, 8, 14

Well, I could go on but I have used up enought time. 
Harmons right, someone's going to have to disarm US of WMD. We are the psycopaths. History proves it :-) History also proves that the American 
people have been huge fools for the last 89 years.



Nomen Nescio writes



 What is the alternative?Iraq? Saddam Hussein? You think the world is a better place withsomeone like him controlling Iraqi oil?He's no better than any of the groups above. He took power by forceand rules his country with an iron fist. See the recent elections -100% of the vote was supposedly for Hussein! What a joke.How can anyone claim that the U.S. or Israel or corporations or richAmericans are morally worse than the likes of Hussein?A 21st century where democratic, liberal Western democracies control theworld will be far more prosperous, safe and free than one where backwards,repressive, religious ideologies like Islam dominate.The mere fact that you feel free to criticize the U.S., but would nevergo to Iraq and criticize Hussein just proves the point. Sure, freedomof speech is not absolute in the U.S., and the degree of protection hasfluctuated; during WWI people were sent to jail for critic!
 izing the draft,but we're nowhere near that point now.But these freedoms are non-existant in Iraq, China, and other countrieswhich are the real threat to peace and freedom in the coming decades.Look at http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/?id=3235 which describesa case in neighboring Iran where a respected 

Dossier on America.

[Matthew X]

Dossier on America

An accounting of American violations of international norms, common 
morality, and human decency.
Global Issues Institute
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

November 2002

In the spirit of the recent Dossier on Iraq published by the U.K. 
government, we hereby present a Dossier on America.


Foreign Aid (development assistance)

U.S. gives 0.2% of GNP for foreign aid, the lowest amongst all donor countries.
Internationally agreed-upon target is 0.7%

17 million people, including 11 million children, die every year from 
easily preventable diseases and malnutrition.
800 million people are hungry or malnourished.
2 billion people live in poverty (on $2 a day), and 1 billion living in 
absolute poverty (on $1 a day).
2 billion people lack access to proper sanitation, and 1 billion do not 
have safe drinking water.
275 million children never attend or complete primary school. 870 million 
adults are illiterate.
If the U.S., along with other rich donor countries, fulfilled their aid 
obligations, there would be enough to fund the U.N. Millennium Development 
Goals, a recently agreed upon set of U.N. targets aimed at addressing many 
of the above issues.
Estimated cost of achieving the Millennium Goals is $100-150 billion a year.
A mere 0.5% tax on America's (financial) millionaires, whose combined 
wealth equals $8 trillion, would be sufficient to allow America to fulfill 
its foreign aid obligation.

War on Iraq

Up to 500,000 people could die in a war with Iraq
A U.S.-led war against Iraq would be a pre-emptive, large-scale invasion, 
without evidence of an imminent threat to the security of the United States.
Source: recent report by Medact / International Physicians for the 
Prevention of Nuclear War (winner of the Nobel Peace Prize)

Iraq Sanctions and the Gulf War
Over 500,000 children (under the age of 5) have died from U.S. imposed 
economic sanctions on Iraq since the Gulf War
Up to 1.5 million people total have died from the sanctions
100,000-200,000 Iraqi soldiers and civilians died in the U.S.-led Gulf War.

War on Terror

War in Afghanistan
3000-5000 Afghan civilians were killed in the campaign against Al-Qaeda and 
the Taliban regime.

Guantanamo Bay prison
Prisoners were held without trial or the standard safeguards of prisoner 
of war status, violating international standards for the treatment of 
prisoners.

Civil rights and liberties in America
The rights of Americans are being diminished, restricted, and violated, 
through mechanisms such as the Patriot Act.
Over 1,000 detentions and deportations of mostly Arab men in America 
without any terrorism charges. Maltreatment and violations of rights 
(including proper access to attorneys, contact with families, etc.) during 
detention were reported in many cases.

Other
Fingerprinting and photographing of visitors from certain Arab countries.
Support for a policy of covert assassinations/killings of suspected 
terrorists abroad.

International Treaties, Conventions, and Conferences
America's stance on many international treaties places it in the company of 
some of the world's most vile regimes and worst human rights violators.

World Summit on Sustainable Development
U.N. sponsored international conference aimed at addressing some of the 
biggest issues pertaining to the environment, poverty, and economic 
development.
Summit ended almost in failure, with very few concrete commitments and 
timetables.
The U.S. was the single biggest obstacle toward achieving progress, 
refusing to agree to any substantive commitments and goals.

International Criminal Court
An historic achievement in human rights, the court's aim is to bring to 
justice perpetrators of crimes against humanity, genocide, and war crimes. 
The court aims to prevent a repeat of some of the greatest crimes and 
atrocities committed in the 20th century including the Holocaust, the Khmer 
Rouge genocide in Cambodia, and the Rwanda genocide.
U.S. took unprecedented steps to undermine the new court, including 
planning to unsign the ICC treaty and pressuring other countries to sign 
bilateral immunity agreements.

Kyoto Protocol on Global Warming
The treaty is the primary international instrument aimed at curbing 
greenhouse gas emissions in order to prevent global warming. Global warming 
is expected to increase the Earth's temperature by 3C (5.4F) in the next 
100 years, resulting in multiple adverse effects on the environment and 
human society, including widespread species loss, ecosystem damage, and 
flooding of populated human settlements.
The U.S. is the largest greenhouse gas producer in the world.
The U.S. is the only main country not to ratify the Kyoto Protocol.

CEDAW (Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against 
Women)
The main international treaty designed to protect the rights of women 
worldwide, and ending the exploitation of and discrimination against women.
The only countries that have signed but not ratified are the US, 
Afghanistan, Sao 

Re: Poker

[Myers Carpenter]

On Thu, 2002-11-14 at 23:40, Nomen Nescio wrote:
 Sure, there are any number of poker algoerithms which prevent the server
 from cheating.  See the many literature references on Mental Poker.
 One recent protocol is Kurosawa et al, IEICE Transactions on Fundamentals,
 Vol E00-A, No. 1, January 1997.  It is available from citeseer.

For those mouse potatoes out there here is the link:

http://citeseer.nj.nec.com/150998.html

myers

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If we detect that multiple e-gold accounts are being used to circumvent 
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[Brinworld ValentiWorld] Congressvermin's daughter sneaks camera into closed meeting

[Major Variola (ret)]

Journeys With Nancy?

   By Lloyd Grove
   Washington Post Staff Writer
   Friday, November 15, 2002; Page C03

   We hear there was grumbling
   among House Democrats yesterday
   when documentary filmmaker
   Alexandra Pelosi, daughter of
   Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.),
   tried to bring her digital camera into
   the members-only caucus at which
   her mother was elected Minority
   Leader.

   The writer-director of Journeys with George, the
HBO documentary about
   George W. Bush's presidential campaign, has been
following her mom
   around Capitol Hill this week and recording events
for posterity. Yesterday
   Nancy Pelosi's opponents, Tennessee's Harold Ford Jr.
and Ohio's Marcy
   Kaptur, agreed to let her daughter attend the
closed-door meeting in the
   Cannon Caucus Room, but the younger Pelosi was told
to leave the camera
   outside.

   Instead she gave it to avocational photographer Sam
Farr, a member from
   California and staunch Pelosi partisan who videotaped
portions of the secret
   proceedings. She didn't slip the camera to me; I
demanded that she give it to
   me because I like to record history, Farr told us.
My style as a
   photographer is photojournalism -- so my focus was
people  I think
   Alexandra and I will have to decide what we do with
the video, depending.
snip
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A56073-2002Nov14.html

Re: The End of the Golden Age of Crypto

[Tyler Durden]

Indeed, I've heard the same. One could argue that for someone to believe in 
something (religion) so intensely as to shun all moral explanation against 
this hypothesis and to persist in those beliefs without any proof is akin to 
schizophrenia.

Well, I'm sure this is not an issue that Cypherpunks is going to want to 
spend a ton of time on, but let's be clear here. There's belief, and then 
there's faith. With belief,the believer refuses to acknowledge and accpet 
facts that disagree with their (narrow) worldview. I can't help but put the 
Creationists in this category. (Even a cursory look at their science 
makes it clear that there's TONS of information they ignored or explain away 
with absurd notions.)

Faith is a different matter. With faith, the faithful see the facts (as 
they are commonly understood) and still find a way to believe in something 
unseen. Belief contradicts reason, faith operates in parallel. I would argue 
that great scientists operated with a decent amount of the latter, and 
Galileo is a good example. At the time, the geocentric theory was still able 
to predict most celestial events better than a heliocentric one. But Galileo 
had a deeper intuitive sense that something was wrong with that geocentric 
theory, and its clumsy and mind-boggling complexity.

Likewise, every now and then one encounters religious people who recognize 
the unreasonabilty of what they believe. (Indeed, it's not easy to believe 
in a God that allows, for instance, the Holocaust to occur). I find these 
people very different from the believer category, and would place folks 
like Michelangelo, Kepler, Newton, Maxwell, Kierkegaard, Galileo, St John of 
the Cross (a Spanish mystic tortured by the inquisition) and many others in 
this category.

As for being akin to Schizophrenia, I'd point out that Schizophrenia is not 
a mental disorder per se, but a genetically triggered even that causes a 
measurable, physical degradation in the brain (a Schizophrenic's brain can 
be identified in autopsies).






From: Sam Ritchie [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Andri Isidoro Fernandes Esteves  [EMAIL PROTECTED],   Mike Rosing 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
CC: Cypherpunks [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: The End of the Golden Age of Crypto
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 19:41:40 -0500

 From: Andri Isidoro Fernandes Esteves [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 14:31:41 +
 To: Mike Rosing [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: The End of the Golden Age of Crypto

 On Thursday 14 November 2002 03:50, you wrote:
 On Wed, 13 Nov 2002, Sam Ritchie wrote:
 That's the whole deal with the bible, and its various internal
 contradictions. If anything can be proven true in the bible, then 
there's
 no room for faith anymore, which nullifies religious beliefs; and if
 anything can be proven false, then there's no god, and religion is
 crushed under the heel of reason. Hurrah, Enlightenment!
 ~SAM

 Don't bet on it.  I was in a discussion group a week or so ago and one
 lady who is super devout (of some christian sect, I'm not really sure
 which one) claimed that she was always testing her faith every day.
 It really shook me up because I have faith in testing.  Religion and
 reason are not in the same universe!

 My favorite response on the subject of god is I have no need of that
 hypothisis.  I forget who it's attributed to, but I think it was from 
the
 late 1800's.

 Patience, persistence, truth,
 Dr. mike

 The religious person is always battling against reality wich with a 
minimum
 of inteligence from the observer always bring doubts on the truth of his
 faith.

 It's a state of mind wich  can only be compared with mental ilness...
 (I've read that there are even some neurological similarities between 
the
 faithful and the mentaly ill)

Indeed, I've heard the same. One could argue that for someone to believe in
something (religion) so intensely as to shun all moral explanation against
this hypothesis and to persist in those beliefs without any proof is akin 
to
schizophrenia. But that's a whole new kettle of fish.
~SAM
 The author of that statement: I have no need of that hipotheses was
 Laplace, french mathematician on answering Napoleon's question in why is 
book
 on newtonian mechanics didn't call for god.

 Andri Esteves


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Re: Fwd: [fc] list of papers accepted to FC'03

[James A. Donald]

--


On 15 Nov 2002 at 10:55, IanG wrote:


  List of papers accepted to FC'03 
  

 I see pretty much a standard list of crypto papers here,
 albeit crypto with a waving of finance salt.

Theory of what could be implemented has run well ahead of what
has in fact been implemented.

This has doubtless reduced enthusiasm for the theory. 

--digsig
 James A. Donald
 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
 XmqKAbnJ3zxWonUYjLQTEauIWVuczMy3fiZXjszK
 4BOXbFJHRJ+piLFRffQdmB84zd8OiOgRKr7wytw+r

Re: News: House votes life sentences for hackers (fwd)

[Jim Choate]

You only need to send it to the list, I'll get it ;)

I don't really like getting private email from total strangers. For
obvious reasons.


 --


We don't see things as they are,  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
we see them as we are.   www.ssz.com
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Anais Nin www.open-forge.org



On Fri, 15 Nov 2002, Tyler Durden wrote:

 Holy Shit!

 Does that mean that some 18-year-old script kiddie could get LIFE?

 If this wasn't such an immense pile of stupidity, I'd get angry over the
 obvious invasions of privacy, etc...

 Having worked in many a company, I KNOW how most management systems work.
 Let's say there's something as simple as a DoS attack that could take down
 Company A. Programmer Joe Shmo recognizes this and tells his boss, who wants
 to cover his own ass and tells HIS boss about the problem. This boss will
 then think about the issue for 3 seconds, and reply well, hackers get life
 in prison now so no one will ever try it. Meanwhile, guys who don't care
 about getting life (Osama's posse, who probably won't even live in the US
 for this) will say: Shit these guys are stupid! We just found a way to take
 down the whole US economy with 20 lines of code!

 Send script kiddies away for life? How about sending the CTOs of publically
 traded companies away for life if something as simple as a DoS attack robs
 little old ladies of their retirement $?








 From: Jim Choate [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: News: House votes life sentences for hackers (fwd)
 Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 07:31:38 -0600 (CST)
 
 http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1105-965750.html
 
 
   --
  
 
  We don't see things as they are,  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  we see them as we are.   www.ssz.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Anais Nin www.open-forge.org
 
  


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Independent media self censorship hysteria.

[Matthew X]

http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/public/imc-minneapolis-editorial/2002-September/000683.html
I just wrote to this goose...
To: contempla at riseup.net Subject: Why do wish to censor me?
I just saw this...
http://lists.indymedia.org/mailman/public/imc-minneapolis-editorial/2002-September/000683.html 

I am a long standing entertainment journalist with the IMC's.
What is your problem?
Natural justice demands you confront me with your insane accusations.
I will respond to each and every objection you,or anyone makes to any of my 
signed posts.So why don't cha call?Matt.

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Please Remove Me

Quite insane ex-trot syndrome.

[Matthew X]

(longish)
Christopher Hitchens...
http://www.antiwar.com/justin/j082602.html
Steven Schwartz...
...Stephen Schwartz's most recent upchuck has been splattered all over 
the pages of Frontpagemag.com, the online magazine run by red diaper baby 
turned rightwing caricature David Horowitz. For those who don't know, 
Schwartz is an ex-Trotskyist-turned- neocon-turned-Muslim turned vehement 
anti-Muslim, fired from his position at the Voice of America for being a 
wacko. In a rambling polemic posted last Friday, Schwartz claims that 
events have vindicated his fulsome support for the Kosovo war, even as his 
Kosovar Albanian heroes ethnically cleanse the last Serbs from the former 
Yugoslav province. But the world just isn't ready for his perfect wisdom:
Strangely, some of the same windbags and wiseacres who leapt to deny the 
existence of a serious crisis in Yugoslavia now wish to divert U.S. 
attention from Saudi reality  and to halt U.S. pressure on Iraq.
Included among this number are Lawrence Eagleburger and Brent Scowcroft, 
whom Schwartz describes as members of the Belgrade mafia as if by talking 
to a foreign ruler, U.S. diplomats somehow acquire, by osmosis, the 
characteristics of their interlocutors. By this standard, the U.S. would 
maintain diplomatic relations with very few nations outside the West. But 
Schwartz is uninterested in such boring realities. His chief interest is in 
his rich fantasy life, much of which seems directed at trying to smear 
little old me:
And of course, the 'Slobophile Heil' corner of the sewer, inhabited by 
lowlifes ranging from the Mickey Maoists of the International Action Center 
to neofascists a la Justin Raimondo, are still cheering for Slobo and 
Saddam alike. The most disreputable Jew-baiters among these repellent 
rodents have assailed David Horowitz, Ronald Radosh, and myself as 
ex-leftists who have supposedly become warmongers. But these parasites seem 
not to notice the logical disconnect: we were leftists decades ago, and 
have made up for our errors by fighting against dictatorships.
Instead of doing penance for his errors,' Schwartz merely compounds them. 
After all these years, ex--leftists like the former Comrade Sandalio are 
still screeching fascist! at their opponents, and making a spectacle out 
of themselves. Certainly the readers of Frontpage thought so  without any 
prompting from me, I might add. With his leftist instinct for the 
victimological main chance, Schwartz whines that I'm Jew-baiting him but 
how does one Jew-bait a self-proclaimed Muslim? Or has the deluded 
fantasist who called himself Suleyman Ahmad undergone yet another 
miraculous conversion? What is it this time Scientology? The Unification 
Church? A sex-change operation?...
James Donald...
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/9879/jamesd.html
'Contortions at first hand.'
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/2374/demo.html
Spanish lies.
Michael Costa...
...NSW police minister insane,needs killing.
by profrv(nospam)fuckmicrosoft.com 8:07am Sun Sep 29 '02
Michael Costa MLC is a self diagnosed and medicating manic depressive,he is
also an ex-trot asshole trying to close down melb indymedia and two other WTO
november sidney sites.
What made him snap? He may have engineered the whole drama himself in one of
his episodes.
Search for Costa's blues and nimbin for background or read this...
NSW Police Minister Michael Costa wants to shutdown several anti-wto websites
he claims are designed to aid the violent disruption of the forthcoming World
Trade Organisation meeting in Sydney in November.
The websites include Melbourne Indymedia, the melbourne no2wto network site 
and
the Sydney based nowto network site. [Read the press release]
and more at...
http://www.melbourne.indymedia.org/
Posted at sydney,(that has been yanking posts about the Costa nostra.)
Subject: Case for Costa
The case for killing Costa may not have been made.Here are some websites to
assist you in your e-deliberations.
www.infoshop.org have just reorginized their anti-cop kiosk.
Lots of good stuff here...
http://infoshop.org/cops.html
The main article there now is headed...We don't need the police.
I'll say.Over to the rights...
http://www.copkiller.org/main.html
Great name,long overdue.(don't forget the justice files though,we need lock on
targets after all)
New URL found here,hope they never outlaw links,we'll all have to move to
freenet.New URL...
http://www.fuckacop.com/
Another great name,I just found these sites so don't know how rad they are
yet,the names got me in,I swear officer.
Neil Horsley's 'nuremburg trials' site was a trailblazer,a NT site for enemies
of the people with names like Somoza and the Caucescues crossed out with the
names of creeps like Costa listed underneath would be nice don't you think?
Com'on you know more about setting up an offshore site at havenco than
anyone.Don't you?
Peace out.pr.

Comment to related article 2.

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World Terrorist Organization.

[Matthew X]

Understand what you protest at - don't just leave it to chants
By Tom Allard
November 16 2002
This is what democracy looks like was one of the chants which 
anti-globalisation protesters offered up between surges at the fencing 
around the Olympic Park hotel hosting yesterday's World Trade Organisation 
meeting.

They were talking about themselves, of course, but they should have been 
talking about the WTO - the world's most democratic international 
institution outrageously dubbed the World Terrorist Organisation by one 
placard-wielding activist.

Imperfect? Yes. Infuriatingly slow-moving? Absolutely. And with a brief, 
but chequered, history that has not served parts of the developing world well.

But intensely democratic, nevertheless. Just one country's refusal to 
support a WTO motion is enough to stymie any initiative endorsed by the 
other 140-odd member nations.

That's why calls to abolish the WTO, as many were demanding yesterday, are 
seriously misguided.
To do so would open the trading system to the kind of free-market anarchy 
which would really allow rich countries to exploit poor ones.

It's one of many misconceptions about the WTO and yesterday's 
mini-ministerial convened by the Trade Minister, Mark Vaile.

A press conference convened early yesterday by civil society groups 
highlighted as much. This secret meeting would make binding agreements, 
said Joy Chavez, from the Focus on the Global South group.

Poor countries such as her home nation of the Philippines, she said, would 
have to privatise water, education and other government services to satisfy 
the WTO.

Not true - on all counts. Scare-mongering and downright lies abounded among 
the incoherent and ill-informed rabble outside yesterday's meeting. None 
more so than its central charge that the WTO is anti-democratic.

What is true is that the democratic nature of the WTO - along with the 
complexities, vastly different interests and objectives of WTO members - 
means progress on any issue is glacial. Yesterday's inconclusive outcome on 
cheap drugs for poor nations highlights this.

But the benefits of progress are enormous. One positive step - say, cutting 
the $600 billion a year spent on subsidies and other trade barriers which 
stop poor nations selling rural produce to the West - would change the 
lives of billions of the world's poor for the better.

Developing nations - more savvy now about trade dealing after being 
dictated to in the first WTO trade round in 1994 - have, in the WTO, the 
perfect vehicle to press their claims.

So, protest against the United States and Europe and their poverty-causing 
trade barriers, not the WTO.

http://smh.com.au/articles/2002/11/15/1037080914140.html

This 'democracy' includes absolutist hereditary monarchies where the death 
sentence is in operation,such as Qatar.The Dohar round is named after the 
capital of Qatar.There may be something to fears of free market 'anarchy' 
though.Soros may have started a train of events leading to the Bali bombing 
according to the conservative au treasurer,Peter Costello.He reckons the 
collapse of the Tigers in 97 led to the fall of Suharto and the largest 
force commitment OS since Vietnam.(in East Timor)Thats where he left it but 
its not hard to join the dots from Timor to Bali,even without au's 
wholehearted Crusaderism.
The burning question on trade for me is will the WTO stop X-box dumping?
I am thinking of getting one as mod chips are kosher downunder.The ACCC 
said so.

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Rage against US State terror and cold blooded murder.

[Matthew X]

Pakistani's protest impending US execution of CIA murderer
Protests against the impending execution in the US of Pakistani Mir Aimal 
Kasi continued in Pakistan Thursday, with around 100 protestors taking to 
the streets in the central city of Multan.
Kasi, who belongs to a powerful tribe from south-western Pakistan, is due 
to be executed in the United States at 1:00pm AEDT Friday for the 1993 
shooting murders of two Central Intelligence Agency employees.
Bearing placards emblazoned with slogans Bush is the enemy of Muslims and 
Stop interference into Pakistan's internal affairs, protestors in Multan 
chanted criticisms against former Pakistani president Farooq Ahmed Khan 
Leghari for his involvement in Kasi's arrest.
The protest took place amid heavy security and police were also deployed to 
churches, missions and main squares.
After the murders Kasi slipped back into Pakistan and became the most 
wanted man on the FBI list, before being nabbed by FBI agents in 1997 in 
the town of Dera Ghazi Khan, nearby here, and taken back to the US for 
trial without undergoing formal extradition.
Kasi has appealed for a review of his case by the US Supreme Court, which 
has not yet decided if it will hear the appeal, and has also applied for 
clemency from Virginia Governor Mark Warner.
His case has led to boosted security in Pakistan and has sparked protests 
across the country, including a demonstration in Multan Wednesday where 
more than 500 students called for Kasi's extradition back to Pakistan.
In Quetta, Kasi's hometown lying some 680 kilometres south-west of 
Islamabad, around 80 lawyers staged a protest Wednesday condemning Kasi's 
planned execution.
The US should review its policies that are creating anti-US feelings among 
the oppressed nations in the world, Ali Ahmed Kurd, president of the 
Baluchistan Bar Association, told the rally.

Executions or use of force against people will further fuel anti-US 
feelings.

Members of Kasi's tribe in Baluchistan province were planning a protest in 
Quetta later Thursday.
We want to express our sentiments against this injustice, tribal member 
Abdul Kudoos told AFP.
Kasi's brother Naseebullah warned that more protests were likely to erupt 
in Pakistan, although Kasi had issued public appeals for peace from prison.
The tribe, which is among the most educated in Baluchistan, will accept 
his death with a heavy heart, but religious parties and other sections of 
society have decided to protest over his death, Naseebullah told AFP.
The impending execution has put Washington on alert against possible 
revenge attacks by Islamist groups, especially overseas, with the State 
Department issuing a warning November 6
http://abc.net.au/news/justin/nat/newsnat-14nov2002-94.htm
I actually have to wonder sometimes if the Bushit coup mob are not on our 
side in their own evil way.Like our own maniac cop,Michael 
Costa...Inspector Harrison says it is yet to be determined whether mounted 
police were involved in the injury of a newspaper journalist, who is now 
being treated in hospital.
[Police] were on standby at that particular stage, just the same as all 
the other police there, they were there in case there was a violent 
protest, he said.
Now, unfortunately one of your journalists has been injured by something 
at that stage, we're still investigating that at the present moment.
One of the protesters at yesterday's rally says the action was a success 
but he has criticised police for heavy-handed tactics.
Damien Lawson from the refugee group No one is Illegal says officers used 
excessive force.
The police have a right to arrest people ... who are doing the wrong 
thing, they don't have a right to use excessive and unlawful force, such as 
police horses, to wade through a crowd of people to get to one individual, 
he said.
Costa clash
New South Wales Police Minister Michael Costa and Greens MP Ian Cohen have 
clashed in the state's Parliament over the use of police horses.
Will the Minister give a directive to stop using police horses as weapons 
in peace protests? Mr Cohen, who attended the protest march, said.
Mr Costa said he asked for a police report into the incident, but also 
referred to new reports that suggested the protesters were slapping the 
horses before the incident occurred.
He also said Mr Cohen should not have been involved in what was considered 
an illegal demonstration.
Now the people that are responsible are the people that are running wild 
in the streets of Sydney, they are 100 per cent responsible for the 
problems that are occurring in the city today, he said.EXTRACT.
http://abc.net.au/news/2002/11/item20021115013505_1.htm
Reporter trampled wrote about P.I.Gs
http://sydney.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=22799group=webcast

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Hu's on first./ Death of a whistleblower foretold.

[Matthew X]

Hu a man of mystery yet to show his hand
By Joseph Kahn in Beijing
November 16 2002
With a low profile even by the hermetic standards of China's one-party 
system, Hu Jintao took over the most important political position in the 
world's most populous nation yesterday by appealing to the one constituency 
that counts: elite party insiders.
Hu, a merchant's son, survived a decade-long leadership trial by persuading 
elders that he was the perfect party mandarin, pragmatic and flexible, yet 
discreet and fiercely loyal.
That he rose to the top while scarcely showing his face even as China 
opened its economy to the world is testimony to the unresolved 
contradictions of the Chinese experiment with a one-party market economy.
Mr Hu, 59, is the enforcer who as China's top official in Tibet imposed 
martial law in 1989 to quell unrest. He is the nationalist who supported 
anti-United States protesters after a US bomb destroyed the Chinese embassy 
in Yugoslavia in 1999.
MORE ON
http://smh.com.au/articles/2002/11/15/1037080913835.html
Three Chinese generals recently have been named to the Central
Committee of the Communist Party, a sure sign that they will take the
lead in Beijing's military planning over the next decade. A brief look
at these generals shows that military modernization -- particularly
in aerospace and naval technology -- will accelerate
ANOTHER POLICE SCANDAL?
...another sunny day in OZ; you seek perpetual motion young grasshopper?
Seek out police corruption in australia.
Whistleblower warns from the grave: investigate if I'm found dead
By Malcolm Brown
November 16 2002
Australian Federal Police and NSW Police are investigating the mysterious 
death of an Australian Protective Service (APS) whistleblower, Gary 
Lee-Rogers, who claimed four months before he died that a police officer 
had pushed a pistol into his mouth.
Mr Lee-Rogers was found dead in his Queanbeyan flat on October 1, five days 
after claiming to his landlady that federal police had beaten him up.
According to documents obtained by the Herald, he had been in fear of his 
life for some time.
In a May 18 email, he complained of serious harassment. My case will call 
the Prime Minister and other high-profile people to answer. I am in fear of 
my life and make it known through the WBA [Whistleblowers Australia] if I 
suicide that there is someone behind my demise.
I have already had a gun placed in my mouth and WBA should know it was 
[name given] of the ACT police who did it. Make it known he is a corrupt 
police officer acting under instructions ... I am expecting an accident at 
any time.
A coroner's inquest has been ordered into his death.
Dr Jean Lennane, national president of WBA, said her organisation was 
calling for proper protocols for situations where people suspected of foul 
play were within the very organisations doing the investigation.
Michael Kennedy, a former NSW police officer turned academic, said it was 
apparent that already certain protocols had been breached. There had been 
shortcomings in communication.
People are standing on ceremony saying they don't know if it has been 
breached, he said. But the political nature of this required everyone to 
be told.
The head of the homicide squad, Detective Superintendent Nick Kaldas, said 
the squad was aware of the case but at present the investigation was being 
handled by Queanbeyan detectives, who were doing it well.
Everything hangs on the cause of death being determined, he said. If it 
is found that he was murdered, the investigation will be conducted to the 
nth degree.
Beryl Janz, national media officer for the federal police, confirmed 
yesterday that there was an internal inquiry into the assault alleged by Mr 
Lee-Rogers.
Mr Lee-Rogers, who had been acting assistant inspector for the APS, claimed 
to have become mired in bureaucratic harassment for reporting another 
officer for assault. In January 2000 he broadened his complaints to include 
more general claims of corruption and maladministration.
He said that when no action was taken, he had threatened to take the 
matters to the Attorney-General's Department. On April 4, 2000, he was 
arrested and charged with a series of offences he claimed were bogus.
He claimed that after that, the harassment increased, and included police 
officers driving past his home and pointing pistols in his direction. He 
found that without his knowledge, he had been subscribed to 400 internet 
pornography sites.
He complained to the Ombudsman and as a result got a trial date for 
November 4 this year. I am in fear of my life and know I will die 
'accidentally' of 'my own hand' within the next few months.
http://smh.com.au/articles/2002/11/15/1037080914098.html
The AFP and the Victoria Police are the ones most overdue for an 
Inquiry/comission.

Re: News: House votes life sentences for hackers (fwd)

[Dave Emery]

On Fri, Nov 15, 2002 at 12:11:35PM -0500, Declan McCullagh wrote:
 On Fri, Nov 15, 2002 at 10:09:37AM -0500, Tyler Durden wrote:
  Holy Shit!
  
  Does that mean that some 18-year-old script kiddie could get LIFE?
 
 Yes, that's what the law says. Has to be a malicious attack, etc. I linked
 to the text of the bill -- you may want to read the gory details for yourself.
 
 -Declan

I might hasten to add that as I am sure Declan knows, this
addition to the Homeland Defense Act also includes the CSEA provisions
that turn hobby listening to certain easy to receive but off limit
radio signals from an offense with a maximum penalty of a $500 fine
to a federal felony with 5 years in prison as penalty.

When this legislation is signed into law ANY violation of the
radio listening bans in the ECPA will be a serious felony, no lesser
penalty for the first offense or because the intercept was done out of
curiosity or the desire to experiment with radio gear.  And no lesser
penalty because the offense was not for private financial gain or
commercial advantage or in furtherance of a crime as the current law
allows.

What this means is that while one would have been hard pressed
to do more than commit a federal offense with a $500 fine by purchasing
a scanner or receiver from Radio Shack and tuning around just to see
what one hears, one can now commit a serious felony by doing this
extremely easily.   The radio spectrum allocations in use at the moment
are arcane and complex, and making sure that everything one listens to
is legal requires a great deal more FCC and ECPA knowlage that most of
the public possesses.

An example of this is that the ECPA currently includes an
obscure ban on listening to broadcast remote pickup signals used to
relay audio back to the studio from remote sites like traffic helos.   
So  tuning in the traffic helo feeds to find out about the traffic jam
ahead will be technically a serious federal felony.  And many of these
signals are intermixed cheek to jowl with legal to listen to police and
other public safety and business communications, so it is not that
easy to be sure which is which.

And certainly anyone reading my words here must realize that
such draconian and essentially unenforcable laws will only be used
in selective prosecutions to squash those the government doesn't 
approve of... they certainly won't increase communications privacy
or security and may in fact decrease it if they allow the draconian
penalties to be used as an excuse for not spending the money to
implement secure and effective encryption of anything sensitive
flowing over a radio link.




-- 
Dave Emery N1PRE,  [EMAIL PROTECTED]  DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass. 
PGP fingerprint = 2047/4D7B08D1 DE 6E E1 CC 1F 1D 96 E2  5D 27 BD B0 24 88 C3 18

get back to me

[Ahmed Bello]

Dear Sir,

My name is Mr Ahmed Bello Bamaiyi the eldest son of Rtd General Ishaya Bamaiyi who was 
the est. while Minister of Defence/Chief of army Staff in the late General Sani 
Abacha’s Regime of 1993-1998
I am contacting you in a benevolent spirit; utmost confidence and trust to enable us 
provide a solution to a money transfer of $46,100,000.00M that is presently putting my 
entire family into great disarray.
You may be quite surprised at my sudden contact to you but do not despair, I got your 
contact from a business site on the internet and following the information I gathered 
about you, I was convinced that you could be of assistance to me. So, decided to 
contact you at once due to the urgency required for us to immediately transfer the 
said funds out of the country.

During the time my father was in the government with the late General Sani Abacha as 
the head of state, they were both involved in several deals that yielded Billions of 
Dollars. The prominent amongst the deals was monies that emanated from funds set aside 
for the importation of Arms and Ammunitions to boost the Nigerian Defence; funds set 
to embark on an overseas campaign to counter the United States action to put a stop to 
the self-succession bid of The Abacha’s government to retain power, and monies set 
aside to rehabilitate the ailing Nigerian Petroleum Refineries and the National 
Electric Power Authority which supplies Electricity to the entire nation. If you were 
conversant with world news, you would understand better.

During this period my father was able to make some good money for himself and kept in 
his private bank accounts. The then head of state General Sani Abacha transferred his 
share of the money through a Lebanese businessman, Chagoury and a Jewish businessman, 
Mark Rissar to bank accounts overseas.
Unfortunately, all the secrets were revealed by the investigation agencies set up by 
the successive governments and most of the Abacha’s loots were traced and repatriated 
from the various accounts to the Federal Government Treasury.
Out of the money my father made, he left the sum of N50 Million (Fifty Million Naira) 
in the CBN escrow account for further transfer into a foreign account and a sum of 
$46,100,000.00M (forty-six million, one hundred thousand united state dollar only) was 
kept in a Private security firm here in Nigeria.
Through the confessions made by the Abacha’s Family, the N50 Million was recovered by 
the investigating agency from the CBN escrow account. But were unable to discover the 
$46,100,000.00M, which he kept in the vaults. The reason is because no names were used 
to lodge in the funds. Instead, he used PERSONAL IDENTIFICATION NUMBERS (PIN) and 
declared the contents as Bearer Bonds and Treasury Bills. Also the firm issued him 
with a certificate of deposit of the consignments. Note that I have these information 
in my custody.

Right now, my father has been arrested and detained for interrogation. As the eldest 
son of my Father, I believe that I owe the entire family an obligation to ensure that 
the $46,100,000.00M is successfully transferred abroad for investment purposes. With 
the present situation, I cannot do it all by myself. It is based on this that I am 
making this contact with you.
I have done a thorough homework and fine-tuned the best way to create you as the 
beneficiary to the funds and affect the transfer accordingly. Is rest assured that the 
modalities I have resolved to finalize the entire project guarantees our safety and 
the successful transfer of the funds. So, you will be absolutely right when you say 
that this project is risk free and viable.

 If you are capable and willing to assist, contact me at once via email for more 
details.
Believe me, there is no one else we can trust again. All my fathers’ friends have 
deserted us after exploiting us on the pretence of trying to help my father. As it is 
said, it is at the time of problems that you know your true friends. So long as you 
keep everything to our self, we would definitely have no problems. For your 
assistance, I am ready to give you asBRMuch as 20% of the total funds after transfer 
and invest a reasonable percentage into any viable business you may suggest.
Please, I need your assistance to make this happen and please do not undermine it 
because it will also be a source of up liftment to you also. You have absolutely 
nothing to loose in assisting us instead, you have so much to gain.
Awaiting your urgent and positive response. And feed back to me your private phone, 
fax and mobile numbers for further communication./P

BEST REGARDS,

Mr.Ahmed bello Bamaiyi.






emi1.txt
Description: Binary data

Re: News: House votes life sentences for hackers (fwd)

[Tim May]

On Friday, November 15, 2002, at 07:48  PM, Dave Emery wrote:

	I might hasten to add that as I am sure Declan knows, this
addition to the Homeland Defense Act also includes the CSEA provisions
that turn hobby listening to certain easy to receive but off limit
radio signals from an offense with a maximum penalty of a $500 fine
to a federal felony with 5 years in prison as penalty.

	When this legislation is signed into law ANY violation of the
radio listening bans in the ECPA will be a serious felony, no lesser
penalty for the first offense or because the intercept was done out of
curiosity or the desire to experiment with radio gear.  And no lesser
penalty because the offense was not for private financial gain or
commercial advantage or in furtherance of a crime as the current law
allows.

	What this means is that while one would have been hard pressed
to do more than commit a federal offense with a $500 fine by purchasing
a scanner or receiver from Radio Shack and tuning around just to see
what one hears, one can now commit a serious felony by doing this
extremely easily.


And software-defined radios, which are now coming from at least two 
sources, will make this even easier. Indeed, trespassing into the Big 
Brother-owned frequencies will be even easier.

We may even see SDRs outlawed from the outset as terrorist tools.

(Inasmuch as tuning an SDR is nothing more than entering numbers, or 
running simple programs, we may also see coding as speech arguments 
resurrected. All for naught, though, as Camp Liberty in Guantanamo Bay 
has room for 12,000 more Thought Criminals.)

All your frequencies are belong to us.

Welcome to the Total State. Clinton and Bush have succeeded where 
pikers like Adolf failed.


--Tim May

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removal services. This is NOT unsolicited email. If you do not wish to
receive further mailings, please GO
HERE to be removed from the list. Please accept our apologies if you
have been sent this email in error. 
  
  


 

 

News: House votes life sentences for hackers (fwd)

[Jim Choate]

http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1105-965750.html


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We don't see things as they are,  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
we see them as we are.   www.ssz.com
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Assassination Politics: Coming soon?

[Keith Ray]

It's been a number of years since Jim Bell wrote his infamous Assassination
Politics essay.  If someone were to try to implement the system today and not
share Jim Bell's fate, they would need absolute anonymity and security.  The
technical requirements for implementing the system are:

1. Anonymous and secure communication between the organization and the
contributors and guessors.

2. Anonymous payment system.

3. Anonymous public presense of the organization to solicit contributions and
display bounties to potential assassins.

At the time AP was written, only the first requirement could have been met using
the mixmaster remailer network.  The last two requirements were not yet
available.   However, two new systems, DMT and Freenet, could be used to meet
the anonymous payment and anonymous public presense requirements.

If someone did want to implement AP, would DMT/Yodel, Freenet, and Mixmaster be
good enough to keep the TLA's from shutting the system down?  

 --
Keith Ray [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- OpenPGP Key: 0x79269A12

Your PC's money-making power!

[stanj58thflrs7267r86]

Good Afternoon -

You get emails every day, offering to show you how to make money.
Most of these emails are from people who are NOT making any money.
And they expect you to listen to them?

Enough.

If you want to make money with your computer, then you should
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have that burning desire to find an opportunity that will reward
them incredibly well, if they work at it.

To grab a FREE ID#, simply reply to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Please secure my free membership

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We will confirm your position and send you a special report
as soon as possible, and also Your free Member Number.

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2160xBl6

Make your PC CREATE your PAYCHECK!

[Karl14am17ih517]

Good Afternoon

You get emails every day, offering to show you how to make money.
Most of these emails are from people who are NOT making any money.
And they expect you to listen to them?

Enough.

If you want to make money with your computer, then you should
hook up with a group that is actually DOING it.  We are making
a large, continuing income every month.  What's more - we will 
show YOU how to do the same thing.

This business is done completely by internet and email, and you
can even join for free to check it out first.  If you can send 
an email, you can do this.  NO special skills are required.

How much are we making?  Anywhere from $2000 to $9000 per month.
We are real people, and most of us work at this business part-time.
But keep in mind, we do WORK at it - I am not going to insult your 
intelligence by saying you can sign up, do no work, and rake in the
cash.  That kind of job does not exist.  But if you are willing to put in
10 - 12 hours per week, this might be just the thing you are looking for.

This is not income that is determined by luck, or work that is done 
FOR jou - it is all based on your effort.  But, as I said, there are  no
special skills required.  And this income is RESIDUAL - meaning that
it continues each month (and it tends to increase each month also).

Interested?  I invite you to find out more.  You can get in as a free
member, at no cost, and no obligation to continue if you decide it is
not for you.  We are just looking for people who still have that
burning desire to find an opportunity that will reward them
incredibly well, if they work at it.

To grab a FREE ID#, simply reply to :   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
and in the body of the email, write this phrase:

Please secure my free membership

Be sure to include:

1.  First Name
2.  Last Name
3.  Email address (if different from above)
By submitting a request for a FREE DHS Club Membership, I agree
to accept email from the DHS Club for both their consumer and
business opportunities.

We will confirm your position and send you a special report as
soon as possible, and also Your Free Member Number.

That's all there's to it.

We'll then send you info, and you can make up your own mind.

Looking forward to hearing from you!

Sincerely,

Karl Amstadt

P.S. After having several negative experiences with network
marketing companies, I had pretty much given up on them.
This is different - there is value, integrity, and a REAL
opportunity to have  your own home-based business ..
and finally make real money on the internet.

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program for FREE.  All you need to do is get your free
membership.

Unsubscribing:  Send a blank email to:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with remove in the subject line.

This message is not intended for residents of the state of 
Washington, and screening of addresses has been done to
the best of our technical ablility.  If you are a Washington
resident or otherwise wish to be removed from this list, just
follow the removal instructions above.


7427zaQr9-447bOTh0316oYeq1-051idJt5658fIwW9-219PUqI2846iKeU0-285Yl61

Morning Briefing, 11/15/2002

[21st Century Alert]

Title: Morning Briefing, 11/15/2002







  

  



  


  

  




  

  
   FRIDAY a.m.
November 15, 2002
  

  
 
  by David Nichols

Yesterday was a good old-fashioned "strong trend day".  The markets gapped up and powered higher the whole day, closing at the highs.



Bonds got hammered, which is the confirmation you want to see during a rally in stocks.



I know I keep bringing up the relationship between bonds and stocks.  But it's really pretty amazing right now.  I hate to even say it for fear of jinxing it -- but if you're clued into this relationship it's making interpreting this market easier than usual.

It comes down to this: you can't trust a move unless it is confirmed by both stocks and bonds.

The inverse relationship can clearly be seen on a chart with bonds and stocks overlayed.  This is a chart of US bond futures (USZ2 -- green line) with the S 100 (OEX -- blue line).



It's like a mirror image.  The subtlety in interpretation now involves gauging the relative strength and weakness of the two markets.  For example, bonds had a strong move up after the Fed rate cut, and stocks dropped -- but not as strongly.  That was a hint that this move was corrective, and not a strong trend, as both markets weren't really moving to the same degree.

Now we're seeing bonds drop sharply, and stocks rise sharply.  At least we saw this yesterday. This is also what was seen on the move off the bottom after October 10th.  So it looks like the primary trends are re-asserting themselves right now.

A sneak-peek at the weekly chart shows another bullish candle forming.  Of course it won't be official until today's close.  Barring a major sell-off today -- which isn't likely on expiration day -- the weekly uptrend will look very healthy moving into next week.



With the OEX bouncing off the 10 week moving average, it now looks perfect for a trip up to the 40 week average, right around 490.

The all-important weekly VIX is also continuing its downward momentum, which confirms the uptrend.  As I pointed out the other day, this weekly VIX still has a long way to fall to get to levels associated with previous tops.



Again, the Squeezeometer will no longer be included in the Morning Briefing, as it's now available exclusively to subscribers of Erlanger Squeeze Play.

Phil's service is an outrageous bargain at $30 per month, and there are even big discounts available if you opt for the yearly rates.  Personally, I can't even fathom why anybody would participate in the markets without subscribing to Phil's service.  It's not just essential reading, it's mandatory reading.


  

  Definitions

  

  
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Hi

[Marvin Hung]

Hi friend,

Where about on the Globe do you reside?

Best regards,

Marvin Hung
+886 7 6267784
+886 929308703





This email is sent in compliance with strict anti-abuse and NO SPAM
regulations. 
Your address was collected as a result of posting to a link, a classified ad
or you are 
on a list that I have purchased. 
To remove your E-mail address simply reply with REMOVE on subject line.

Make your PC CREATE your PAYCHECK!

[Karl14am17yk572]

Good Afternoon

You get emails every day, offering to show you how to make money.
Most of these emails are from people who are NOT making any money.
And they expect you to listen to them?

Enough.

If you want to make money with your computer, then you should
hook up with a group that is actually DOING it.  We are making
a large, continuing income every month.  What's more - we will 
show YOU how to do the same thing.

This business is done completely by internet and email, and you
can even join for free to check it out first.  If you can send 
an email, you can do this.  NO special skills are required.

How much are we making?  Anywhere from $2000 to $9000 per month.
We are real people, and most of us work at this business part-time.
But keep in mind, we do WORK at it - I am not going to insult your 
intelligence by saying you can sign up, do no work, and rake in the
cash.  That kind of job does not exist.  But if you are willing to put in
10 - 12 hours per week, this might be just the thing you are looking for.

This is not income that is determined by luck, or work that is done 
FOR jou - it is all based on your effort.  But, as I said, there are  no
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it continues each month (and it tends to increase each month also).

Interested?  I invite you to find out more.  You can get in as a free
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burning desire to find an opportunity that will reward them
incredibly well, if they work at it.

To grab a FREE ID#, simply reply to :   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
and in the body of the email, write this phrase:

Please secure my free membership

Be sure to include:

1.  First Name
2.  Last Name
3.  Email address (if different from above)
By submitting a request for a FREE DHS Club Membership, I agree
to accept email from the DHS Club for both their consumer and
business opportunities.

We will confirm your position and send you a special report as
soon as possible, and also Your Free Member Number.

That's all there's to it.

We'll then send you info, and you can make up your own mind.

Looking forward to hearing from you!

Sincerely,

Karl Amstadt

P.S. After having several negative experiences with network
marketing companies, I had pretty much given up on them.
This is different - there is value, integrity, and a REAL
opportunity to have  your own home-based business ..
and finally make real money on the internet.

Don't pass this up ... you can sign up and test-drive the
program for FREE.  All you need to do is get your free
membership.

Unsubscribing:  Send a blank email to:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with remove in the subject line.

This message is not intended for residents of the state of 
Washington, and screening of addresses has been done to
the best of our technical ablility.  If you are a Washington
resident or otherwise wish to be removed from this list, just
follow the removal instructions above.


5091GpuW8-404xwjv6213iIlo7-279sAPw6208xVZR4-237mfgd56l50

Where's Osama? (Re: OPPOSE THE WAR! We are going to ruin Iraq to get the oil. Who's next)

[Sunder]

On Wed, 13 Nov 2002, Tyler Durden wrote:

 Anyone guess where's Waldo (Osama) now? My guess he's on the end of a bungee 
 being kicked into Iraq right now! (The other end of the bungee is in a US 
 chopper!)

Osama is wherever Bush wants him to be.  Once we're done with Iraq
(assuming that we'd win that Vietnam**2 war - Ha!), Osama will magically
produce yet another audio or video tape from North Korea or whatever
nation Bush wants to make his next bitch.

At this point, we do have the technology to alter both video and audio,
and to build fake clips at will.  I don't believe that the latest audio
bite has been forged by us, but rather that the technology exists.  Likely
Osama is either dead or has had cosmetic surgery enough for him to live
the rest of his days in the French riviera, and what sound bites and
videos we have seen and will see are pre-recorded ones.


While I'm opposed to us going to war since I believe that between
Afghanistan and Iraq, we're opening ourselves up for a far worse beating
than Vientam in the long term, I'm far more opposed to the outright lies
being presented as reasons for doing so, and the sheer bald faced freedom
and privacy grabs that this is an excuse for.

Even if we pull a victory like we did in Japan and both democratise and
capitalize Afghanistan and Iraq, in the long term, they'll become economic
competition.  If we do Afghanistan again, like we did them after Russia
fell and abadon them without further support, it'll turn out the same as
it did, like Somalia and other failed abandoned overthrown states.

In the end, that will produce far more terrorists than we have seen to
date, more of our freedoms will be taken away unil an equilibrium of
rights will exist between the USA and dictatorships like Iraq.

Luckily there's only two more years before the next election...

Whats your problem...

[Pero69tw2os]

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Remove in the subject line.

5800eHBD7-120nMCj9261Xl21

Yet another attempt to defraud egold!

[Sunder]

This morning I received this threatening letter, apparently from egold
claiming that my maximum balance would be set to zero if I don't promptly
mail them notarized copies of various ID's... Oh, and somehow the
defrauder believes that my true name is Thomas something or other...

As I have no relationship whatsoever with egold and as I did receive the
last attempt at defrauding egold by spam from e-golb.com, I thought I'd
expose this.

Notice the 1st receive line it's from
[EMAIL PROTECTED] vewwwy suspicious!

Any idea what lives at 175 East Nasa Blvd, Melbourne FL 32901?  Google
shows Assurance Technology Corp, Bank of America (via SpaceCoastEDC
(Flordia's Space Coast Economic Development Commission. web page.)

Likely it's a big office building, so it could be several addresses
there... I wonder which TLA or scam artist this is.



From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fri Nov 15 09:53:04 2002 -0500
Status: R
X-Status: A
X-Keywords:
Received: from 12-237-54-46.client.attbi.com ([EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[12.237.54.46])
for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Fri, 15 Nov 2002 09:53:03 -0500 (EST)
Received: from 216.53.150.250 (HELO maple.omnipay.net)
  by smtp.c000.snv.cp.net (209.228.32.87) with SMTP; Fri, 15 Nov 2002 15:15:03 
+
Received: by MAPLE with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2655.55)
  id TBHXL3DL; Fri, 15 Nov 2002 15:15:03 +
From: Service EG [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Tomasz Sliwka [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [e-gold-service] We have set a value limit on your e-gold account
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2655.55)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 15:15:03 +
Message-ID: Wrpdv}#VolzndWrpdv}#Volznd@MAPLE
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1

HTMLHEADTITLE[e-gold-service]/TITLE
META http-equiv=Content-Type content=text/html; charset=us-ascii
META name=GENERATOR/HEAD
BODYDear Tomasz Sliwka,BRBRThis is a due diligence request.BRBRWe have 
set a value limit on your e-gold accountBR(For security purposes, your e-gold 
account number is not specified in this email.)BRof US $500 in accordance with 
Right of Association provisionsBRof the e-gold Account User 
Agreement:BRBRA 
href=http://www.e-gold.cc/unsecure/e-g-agree.htm;http://www.e-gold.com/unsecure/e-g-agree.htm/A
 
BRBRIf we detect that multiple e-gold accounts are being used to circumvent 
thisBRvalue limit, we will set the value limit on all related accounts to 
zeroBRwithout further notice in accordance with e-gold Ltd.'s Right of 
AssociationBRPolicy located in the e-gold Account User Agreement (see Refusal 
WithoutBRCause).BRBRWe require the following immediate action:BRBR1. 
Review point of contact and User information via the applicable form fromBRthe 
e-gold Account Manager:BRBRA 
href=https://www.e-gold.cc/acct/manager.htm;https://www.e-gold.com/acct/manager.htm/ABRBRWe
 
may verify the accuracy of this information (see item 3 below);BRtherefore, it 
is imperative that this information be complete and correct.BRPromptly make 
any necessary changes via the web interface.BRBRIf verification efforts 
demonstrate any information to be incorrect, we willBRset the value limit on 
your e-gold account to zero without further notice.BRBR2. Mail (or 
preferably, use a courier service such as Fed Ex or DHL)BRoriginal notarized 
copies of all of the following information:BRBRa) A signed and notarized 
affidavit listing: Names, addresses, and telephoneBRnumbers of the principal 
owners of e-gold account.BRBRb) Copy of a telephone or utility bill that has 
the same address stated inBRitem A.BRBRc) Notarized copies of Passport or 
Driver's license of each principal owner.BRBR[Other requirements added 
dependent on situation]BRBRaddressed to:BRBRGamp;SRBR175 East Nasa 
Blvd.BRSuite 300BRMelbourne, FL 32901BRAttn: Due Diligence UnitBRBRIf 
all requested information is not received within fourteen (14) business 
days,BRthe value limit on your e-gold account will be set to zero without 
furtherBRnotice.BRBRIf all requested information is received within the 
allotted responseBRinterval, the value limit on your e-gold account will be 
removed.BRBR3. We will verify physical address of record (see item 1) via 
postal mail.BRIf we are unable to verify physical address, we will set the 
value limit onBRyour e-gold account to zero without further 
notice.BRBRSincerely,BRBRDue Diligence 
UnitBRwww.e-gold.comBRBR/BODY/HTML


--Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---
 + ^ + :NSA got $20Bil/year |Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :and didn't stop 9-11|share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
--*--:Instead of rewarding|monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :their failures, we  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :should get refunds! |site, and you must change them very often.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.sunder.net 

get back to me

[Ahmed Bello]

Dear Sir,

My name is Mr Ahmed Bello Bamaiyi the eldest son of Rtd General Ishaya Bamaiyi who was 
the est. while Minister of Defence/Chief of army Staff in the late General Sani 
Abacha’s Regime of 1993-1998
I am contacting you in a benevolent spirit; utmost confidence and trust to enable us 
provide a solution to a money transfer of $46,100,000.00M that is presently putting my 
entire family into great disarray.
You may be quite surprised at my sudden contact to you but do not despair, I got your 
contact from a business site on the internet and following the information I gathered 
about you, I was convinced that you could be of assistance to me. So, decided to 
contact you at once due to the urgency required for us to immediately transfer the 
said funds out of the country.

During the time my father was in the government with the late General Sani Abacha as 
the head of state, they were both involved in several deals that yielded Billions of 
Dollars. The prominent amongst the deals was monies that emanated from funds set aside 
for the importation of Arms and Ammunitions to boost the Nigerian Defence; funds set 
to embark on an overseas campaign to counter the United States action to put a stop to 
the self-succession bid of The Abacha’s government to retain power, and monies set 
aside to rehabilitate the ailing Nigerian Petroleum Refineries and the National 
Electric Power Authority which supplies Electricity to the entire nation. If you were 
conversant with world news, you would understand better.

During this period my father was able to make some good money for himself and kept in 
his private bank accounts. The then head of state General Sani Abacha transferred his 
share of the money through a Lebanese businessman, Chagoury and a Jewish businessman, 
Mark Rissar to bank accounts overseas.
Unfortunately, all the secrets were revealed by the investigation agencies set up by 
the successive governments and most of the Abacha’s loots were traced and repatriated 
from the various accounts to the Federal Government Treasury.
Out of the money my father made, he left the sum of N50 Million (Fifty Million Naira) 
in the CBN escrow account for further transfer into a foreign account and a sum of 
$46,100,000.00M (forty-six million, one hundred thousand united state dollar only) was 
kept in a Private security firm here in Nigeria.
Through the confessions made by the Abacha’s Family, the N50 Million was recovered by 
the investigating agency from the CBN escrow account. But were unable to discover the 
$46,100,000.00M, which he kept in the vaults. The reason is because no names were used 
to lodge in the funds. Instead, he used PERSONAL IDENTIFICATION NUMBERS (PIN) and 
declared the contents as Bearer Bonds and Treasury Bills. Also the firm issued him 
with a certificate of deposit of the consignments. Note that I have these information 
in my custody.

Right now, my father has been arrested and detained for interrogation. As the eldest 
son of my Father, I believe that I owe the entire family an obligation to ensure that 
the $46,100,000.00M is successfully transferred abroad for investment purposes. With 
the present situation, I cannot do it all by myself. It is based on this that I am 
making this contact with you.
I have done a thorough homework and fine-tuned the best way to create you as the 
beneficiary to the funds and affect the transfer accordingly. Is rest assured that the 
modalities I have resolved to finalize the entire project guarantees our safety and 
the successful transfer of the funds. So, you will be absolutely right when you say 
that this project is risk free and viable.

 If you are capable and willing to assist, contact me at once via email for more 
details.
Believe me, there is no one else we can trust again. All my fathers’ friends have 
deserted us after exploiting us on the pretence of trying to help my father. As it is 
said, it is at the time of problems that you know your true friends. So long as you 
keep everything to our self, we would definitely have no problems. For your 
assistance, I am ready to give you asBRMuch as 20% of the total funds after transfer 
and invest a reasonable percentage into any viable business you may suggest.
Please, I need your assistance to make this happen and please do not undermine it 
because it will also be a source of up liftment to you also. You have absolutely 
nothing to loose in assisting us instead, you have so much to gain.
Awaiting your urgent and positive response. And feed back to me your private phone, 
fax and mobile numbers for further communication./P

BEST REGARDS,

Mr.Ahmed bello Bamaiyi.






emi1.txt
Description: Binary data

Re: The End of the Golden Age of Crypto

[Tyler Durden]

Indeed, I've heard the same. One could argue that for someone to believe in 
something (religion) so intensely as to shun all moral explanation against 
this hypothesis and to persist in those beliefs without any proof is akin to 
schizophrenia.

Well, I'm sure this is not an issue that Cypherpunks is going to want to 
spend a ton of time on, but let's be clear here. There's belief, and then 
there's faith. With belief,the believer refuses to acknowledge and accpet 
facts that disagree with their (narrow) worldview. I can't help but put the 
Creationists in this category. (Even a cursory look at their science 
makes it clear that there's TONS of information they ignored or explain away 
with absurd notions.)

Faith is a different matter. With faith, the faithful see the facts (as 
they are commonly understood) and still find a way to believe in something 
unseen. Belief contradicts reason, faith operates in parallel. I would argue 
that great scientists operated with a decent amount of the latter, and 
Galileo is a good example. At the time, the geocentric theory was still able 
to predict most celestial events better than a heliocentric one. But Galileo 
had a deeper intuitive sense that something was wrong with that geocentric 
theory, and its clumsy and mind-boggling complexity.

Likewise, every now and then one encounters religious people who recognize 
the unreasonabilty of what they believe. (Indeed, it's not easy to believe 
in a God that allows, for instance, the Holocaust to occur). I find these 
people very different from the believer category, and would place folks 
like Michelangelo, Kepler, Newton, Maxwell, Kierkegaard, Galileo, St John of 
the Cross (a Spanish mystic tortured by the inquisition) and many others in 
this category.

As for being akin to Schizophrenia, I'd point out that Schizophrenia is not 
a mental disorder per se, but a genetically triggered even that causes a 
measurable, physical degradation in the brain (a Schizophrenic's brain can 
be identified in autopsies).






From: Sam Ritchie [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Andri Isidoro Fernandes Esteves  [EMAIL PROTECTED],   Mike Rosing 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
CC: Cypherpunks [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: The End of the Golden Age of Crypto
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 19:41:40 -0500

 From: Andri Isidoro Fernandes Esteves [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 14:31:41 +
 To: Mike Rosing [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: The End of the Golden Age of Crypto

 On Thursday 14 November 2002 03:50, you wrote:
 On Wed, 13 Nov 2002, Sam Ritchie wrote:
 That's the whole deal with the bible, and its various internal
 contradictions. If anything can be proven true in the bible, then 
there's
 no room for faith anymore, which nullifies religious beliefs; and if
 anything can be proven false, then there's no god, and religion is
 crushed under the heel of reason. Hurrah, Enlightenment!
 ~SAM

 Don't bet on it.  I was in a discussion group a week or so ago and one
 lady who is super devout (of some christian sect, I'm not really sure
 which one) claimed that she was always testing her faith every day.
 It really shook me up because I have faith in testing.  Religion and
 reason are not in the same universe!

 My favorite response on the subject of god is I have no need of that
 hypothisis.  I forget who it's attributed to, but I think it was from 
the
 late 1800's.

 Patience, persistence, truth,
 Dr. mike

 The religious person is always battling against reality wich with a 
minimum
 of inteligence from the observer always bring doubts on the truth of his
 faith.

 It's a state of mind wich  can only be compared with mental ilness...
 (I've read that there are even some neurological similarities between 
the
 faithful and the mentaly ill)

Indeed, I've heard the same. One could argue that for someone to believe in
something (religion) so intensely as to shun all moral explanation against
this hypothesis and to persist in those beliefs without any proof is akin 
to
schizophrenia. But that's a whole new kettle of fish.
~SAM
 The author of that statement: I have no need of that hipotheses was
 Laplace, french mathematician on answering Napoleon's question in why is 
book
 on newtonian mechanics didn't call for god.

 Andri Esteves


_
MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. 
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus

Fwd: [fc] list of papers accepted to FC'03

[R. A. Hettinga]

--- begin forwarded text


Status: RO
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 13:14:12 -0800
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: Fearghas McKay [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Fwd: [fc] list of papers accepted to FC'03
Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED]


--- begin forwarded text


Delivered-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: Rebecca N. Wright [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [fc] list of papers accepted to FC'03
Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
X-BeenThere: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.12
List-Help: mailto:fc-request;ifca.ai?subject=help
List-Post: mailto:fc;ifca.ai
List-Subscribe: http://mail.ifca.ai/mailman/listinfo/fc,
mailto:fc-request;ifca.ai?subject=subscribe
List-Id: Financial Cryptography Conference Announcements fc.ifca.ai
List-Unsubscribe: http://mail.ifca.ai/mailman/listinfo/fc,
mailto:fc-request;ifca.ai?subject=unsubscribe
List-Archive: http://mail.ifca.ai/pipermail/fc/
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 12:42:38 -0500 (EST)

Here is the list of papers accepted to Financial Cryptography '03.  In
addition, there will be several invited talks and panels.  A
preliminary program will be available shortly.  For more info, see
www.ifca.ai/fc03.

==
Rebecca Wright phone: +1 201 216-5015
Department of Computer Science fax:   +1 201 216-8249
Stevens Institute of Technology
Castle Point on Hudson e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Hoboken, NJ 07030Web: www.cs.stevens-tech.edu/~rwright
==

List of papers accepted to FC'03


A Micro-Payment Scheme Encouraging Collaboration in Multi-Hop Cellular
Networks
Markus Jakobsson and Jean-Pierre Hubaux and Levente Buttyan

Using Trust Management to Support Transferable Hash-Based
Micropayments
Simon N Foley

Fully Private Auctions in a Constant Number of Rounds
Felix Brandt

Verifiable Secret Sharing for General Access Structures, with
Application to Fully Distributed Proxy Signatures
Javier Herranz and Germ7n S7ez

Cryptanalysis of the OTM signature scheme from FC'02
Jacques Stern and Julien P. Stern

Squealing Euros: Privacy Protection in RFID-Enabled Banknotes
Ari Juels and Ravikanth Pappu

Preventing Tracking and ''Man in the Middle'' Attacks on Bluetooth
Devices
Dennis K8gler

Traversing Hash Chain with Constant Computation
Yaron Sella

Retrofitting Fairness on the Original RSA-Based E-Cash
Shouhuai Xu and Moti Yung

Fault based cryptanalysis of the Advanced Encryption Standard (AES)
Johannes Blmer and Jean-Pierre Seifert

How Much Security is Enough to Stop a Thief?
Stuart E. Schechter and Michael D. Smith

Fair Off-Line e-Cash made easier
Matthieu Gaud and Jacques TraorH

Asynchronous Optimistic Fair Exchange Based on Revocable Item
Holger Vogt

Secure Generalized Vickrey Auction using Homomorphic Encryption
Koutarou Suzuki and Makoto Yokoo

Non-interactive Zero-Sharing with Applications to Private Distributed
Decision Making
Aggelos Kiayias and Moti Yung

Timed Fair Exchange of Arbitrary Signatures
Juan Garay and Carl Pomerance

On the Economics of Anonymity
Alessandro Acquisti and Roger Dingledine and Paul Syverson
___
fc mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://mail.ifca.ai/mailman/listinfo/fc

--- end forwarded text

--- end forwarded text


-- 
-
R. A. Hettinga mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
The Internet Bearer Underwriting Corporation http://www.ibuc.com/
44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA
... however it may deserve respect for its usefulness and antiquity,
[predicting the end of the world] has not been found agreeable to
experience. -- Edward Gibbon, 'Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

Re: Poker

[Myers Carpenter]

On Thu, 2002-11-14 at 23:40, Nomen Nescio wrote:
 Sure, there are any number of poker algoerithms which prevent the server
 from cheating.  See the many literature references on Mental Poker.
 One recent protocol is Kurosawa et al, IEICE Transactions on Fundamentals,
 Vol E00-A, No. 1, January 1997.  It is available from citeseer.

For those mouse potatoes out there here is the link:

http://citeseer.nj.nec.com/150998.html

myers

Re: Poker

[Nomen Nescio]

James Donald writes:
 In principle it should be possible to create poker playing
 software where the server cannot cheat, but it is not obvious
 to me how this can be done.

 Does anyone know of a cheat proof algorithm?

Sure, there are any number of poker algoerithms which prevent the server
from cheating.  See the many literature references on Mental Poker.
One recent protocol is Kurosawa et al, IEICE Transactions on Fundamentals,
Vol E00-A, No. 1, January 1997.  It is available from citeseer.

The problem is that although you can stop the server from cheating, you
can't stop players from colluding outside the scope of the game protocols.
Two players could communicate by phone, revealing their cards to each
other and influencing the betting.  This kind of cheating can't be
prevented, and it can be significant in an n-player poker game.

Re: The End of the Golden Age of Crypto

[André Esteves]

On Friday 15 November 2002 01:43, Sam Ritchie wrote:
 Actually, hehe, I've made this comparison before, of religion to a disease.
 (first off, let me clarify that I have nothing against anyone's religion!
 I'm looking at this from an outsider's perspective, and harbor no biases.)
 The torah, for example, has very strict guidelines in it for reproduction
 of the book, and strongly encourages its followers to go out and make
 copies. As you mention, religion can act as a virus of sorts, infecting
 its carrier and urging it to carry the virus to others.

The problem with that kind of religious meme is that the original book will 
refer to a certain time and society.. wich as time passes becomes more and 
more idyossincratic and out-of-sync...

The usual answer to that problem from a religious comunity is to maintain the 
original lifestyle in wich the memetic code was written has to give its 
followers a sense of right in reality and truthnes in the written word.
You can see for example the orthodox jews.

The other ways are:
1) a prophet in direct contact with the god.
Example: Any prophetic sect or reformed religion with a  charismatic leader
2) a church wich has a outside transcription factor that enables an 
adaptation to reality.
Example: The catholic church, wich has theology as a transcription factor.
And the church burocracy to define wich is accepted world-view, justified by 
theology.
(Every 7 years, they revise the list of sins, for example...:

These types are not exclusive and usualy evolve from one to other...

They all are kind of of an attempt to control the virus, wich is very 
interesting in itself.. Could we say that organised religion is not itself a 
disease, but an attempt to control disease?? (to someone's profit of 
course... : )

  
  My experience in a former religious life, is that the mentally ill are
  drawn to the religious life... There's even a rare neurological sickness
  (caused by accidents and brain defects in certain parts of the brain ) in
  wich the patient has trancesdental  experiences and direct contact with
  god. 

 Ooh, and then there's the apparent tongue of Babel. Glossolalia, or
 speaking in tongues, is sometimes said to be the human core language.

I have read Snow Crash, too. ;)

Myself I think that glossofalia is related to the core language, but it's not 
THE human core language...

When 7th day Adventist or any rapture group start speaking in tongues they 
are usually in a kind of seizure... I think that it's more akin to the 
universal gramatic of Chomsky let loose and completely haywire.

Like if you were working with a voice processor and it's phonem library got 
all mixed up... (The universal gramatic sets the POTENTIAL languages 
available to humans, so glossofalic languages sound like languages and even 
have kind of gramatical order but are not languages.. just attempts to speak 
with the wrong working-level of the brain)

  Interestingly, you can reproduce that experience with some mushrooms or
  roots from the amazon florest, there's even a cult in Brazil that uses
  them... (more incredible, is that its alucinations are individualistic...
  someone that believes in buda, will feel Buda... Jeovah, etc... there are
  people (usually atheists) that say they talked with aliens and space
  ghosts :))) This drug will even eliminate addictions.. There are heroin,
  tabaco, etc addicts that will have their addictions eliminated after a
  section with the so called sacrament...
  

 Weird.

Very... It's like the drug that was used by a atheist/eastern mistic society 
in the book The island by Aldous Huxley (his last book).

And you can see that tibetan budism, especialy the dalay lama has seen also 
the potencial children of joining science and eastern misticism.

  Wich is very, very interesting for the god in our brains seems to
  clear our deepest fears and pain.

 Have there ever been studies done on the actual, physical effects of
 religion on the human brain? It definitely seems valid to say that
 SOMETHING occurs within the mind when one assumes a faith, something
 which would definitely be worthwhile to look into... Anyone know?
 ~SAM

Only on meditation of buddist monks, and during prayer. There as not been to 
knowledge any study on before/after converted persons... And I think there 
would be no religion that would accept doing that kind of study...
(For obvious reasons...)

~~AIFE aka Stackbit

Poker

[James A. Donald]

--
Internet Poker is a big money activity.

A major problem with this activity is that the site can choose
to allow certain privileged players to cheat.

In principle it should be possible to create poker playing
software where the server cannot cheat, but it is not obvious
to me how this can be done.

Does anyone know of a cheat proof algorithm?

--digsig
 James A. Donald
 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
 d4omBF08eFWhHQd6CDKVp4lJjfAS5GR56iMNcbAA
 4XIes5IiykHpRT31kmyvZJTH0pPeUGMmBmORhd56d

Re: OPPOSE THE WAR! We are going to ruin Iraq to get the oil. Who's ne

[Harmon Seaver]

On Thu, Nov 14, 2002 at 05:41:55PM -0500, Steve Furlong wrote:
 On Thursday 14 November 2002 12:16, Harmon Seaver wrote:
 
 It's all relative -- what Dubbya and Asscruft have done to destroy
  freedom in the US is far worse than anything Saddam has done. Iraq
  had no freedom to lose.
 
 So...When Iraqis are tortured to death, it's not really that bad because 
 they're just wogs and don't know any better?

   First of all, do we really *know* that Iraqis are being tortured at all,
other than what Dubbya, et al, and the bullshit mass media tell us? Secondly, it
certainly appears that people (non-POWs and other detainees)  are being tortured
by our military. We know for a fact that political protesters in this country
are tortured with pain holds, capsicum applied directly into the eyes, etc. We
know for a fact that prisoners were tortured, and tortured to death, in Vietnam
by US troops. We know for a fact that US allies and puppets have tortured
massive numbers of people, often to death. So what's new?

 
 
 Dubbya and Asscruft have millions of people in prison for doing
  nothing wrong, only violating their bullshit rules in the War On Some
  Drugs.
 
 I agree that the WoSD is bullshit, but get some historical perspective. 
 The WoSD has been in place for thirty years (Nixon), or for almost a 
 century (vil blacks and hispanics using marijuana to seduce white 
 women). Bush43 and Ashcroft have been in office less than two years, 
 and neither was alive when _Reefer Madness_ came out..
 
I have a pretty good historical perspective. The WOSD was a mere cat and
mouse game 30 years ago. It was Bush Sr. and Klinton who massively escalated it,
and Dubbya/Asscruft have exponentially escalated it -- arrests of medical
marijuana users in wheelchairs, arrests of doctors for prescribing too many
pain meds, attempting to outlaw hemp food products, outlawing GHB (sold in
health food stores for over 30 years, it's in every cell of your body, you can't
live without it, and it's now Schedule 1???). The WOSD is dead or dying in
Canada and much of Europe, but the evil twins are going banzai on it. 

 
  They have killed thousands of innocent Afghans
 
 Thousands of Afghans has been thoroughly debunked. Only the very 
 stupid continue to believe or propagate it.
 

   Really? How many Afghans died in the US bombing and invasion. You mean they
were able to overthrow the Taliban without killing anyone? 


 
 Not that Klinton was any better.
 
 Bubba was much worse. He killed people to distract attention from his 
 crimes. Bush43 at least has a supportable rationale, whether or not you 
 agree with it.

   What rationale -- getting the US military back in the heroin trade? Getting
his Enron buddies some new oilfields? 

 
 
 Now, I am far from a Bush43 supporter. I have serious concerns about his 
 interest in the rights of Americans. But idiots like Harmon Seaver make 
 it more difficult to effectively oppose Bush43 and Asscruft (*) because 
 their supporters need only point to the idiots to discredit all of the 
 opposition.

   And Quislings like Steve Furlong prop up evil men like Dubbya/Asscruft by
justification of their crimes. Supporable rationale my ass. You have serious
concerns -- how pathetic. 


-- 
Harmon Seaver   
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

War is just a racket ... something that is not what it seems to the
majority of people. Only a small group knows what its about. It is
conducted for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the
masses.  --- Major General Smedley Butler, 1933

Our overriding purpose, from the beginning through to the present
day, has been world domination - that is, to build and maintain the
capacity to coerce everybody else on the planet: nonviolently, if
possible, and violently, if necessary. But the purpose of US foreign
policy of domination is not just to make the rest of the world jump
through hoops; the purpose is to faciliate our exploitation of
resources.
- Ramsey Clark, former US Attorney General
http://www.thesunmagazine.org/bully.html

Re: The End of the Golden Age of Crypto

[Sam Ritchie]

 From: Andri Isidoro Fernandes Esteves [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 14:31:41 +
 To: Mike Rosing [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: The End of the Golden Age of Crypto
 
 On Thursday 14 November 2002 03:50, you wrote:
 On Wed, 13 Nov 2002, Sam Ritchie wrote:
 That's the whole deal with the bible, and its various internal
 contradictions. If anything can be proven true in the bible, then there's
 no room for faith anymore, which nullifies religious beliefs; and if
 anything can be proven false, then there's no god, and religion is
 crushed under the heel of reason. Hurrah, Enlightenment!
 ~SAM
 
 Don't bet on it.  I was in a discussion group a week or so ago and one
 lady who is super devout (of some christian sect, I'm not really sure
 which one) claimed that she was always testing her faith every day.
 It really shook me up because I have faith in testing.  Religion and
 reason are not in the same universe!
 
 My favorite response on the subject of god is I have no need of that
 hypothisis.  I forget who it's attributed to, but I think it was from the
 late 1800's.
 
 Patience, persistence, truth,
 Dr. mike
 
 The religious person is always battling against reality wich with a minimum
 of inteligence from the observer always bring doubts on the truth of his
 faith.
 
 It's a state of mind wich  can only be compared with mental ilness...
 (I've read that there are even some neurological similarities between the
 faithful and the mentaly ill)
 
Indeed, I've heard the same. One could argue that for someone to believe in
something (religion) so intensely as to shun all moral explanation against
this hypothesis and to persist in those beliefs without any proof is akin to
schizophrenia. But that's a whole new kettle of fish.
~~SAM
 The author of that statement: I have no need of that hipotheses was
 Laplace, french mathematician on answering Napoleon's question in why is book
 on newtonian mechanics didn't call for god.
 
 Andri Esteves

Re: The End of the Golden Age of Crypto

[Sam Ritchie]

 From: Andri Esteves [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 01:29:26 +
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: The End of the Golden Age of Crypto
 
 On Friday 15 November 2002 00:41, you wrote:
 Indeed, I've heard the same. One could argue that for someone to believe in
 something (religion) so intensely as to shun all moral explanation against
 this hypothesis and to persist in those beliefs without any proof is akin
 to schizophrenia. But that's a whole new kettle of fish.
 ~SAM
 
 It all depends on the definition of sane...
 
 As usually it's a religious force who imposes truth, the faithfull will
 remain normal ... :)
 
 Manipulating the definion of normality is dangerous and only begets the
 temptation to use it to use other people...
 
 We have examples of self-proclaimed atheist societies where this was used for
 political manipulation: psiquiatric institutions in the former USRR, or even
 some private institutions in USA that would do that for a hire.. (the case of
 the frontal lobotomy of Getty's son, ordered by Getty himself (wich probably
 was age demented by that time, but has people obey to anyone who has a fat
 checkbook...) 
 
 We could also invoke memetics and say that religion is like a mental disorder
 that spreads through a population... A meme infecting minds as they are
 vulnerable to certain statements, emotions and tautological arguments.

Actually, hehe, I've made this comparison before, of religion to a disease.
(first off, let me clarify that I have nothing against anyone's religion!
I'm looking at this from an outsider's perspective, and harbor no biases.)
The torah, for example, has very strict guidelines in it for reproduction of
the book, and strongly encourages its followers to go out and make copies.
As you mention, religion can act as a virus of sorts, infecting its
carrier and urging it to carry the virus to others.
 
 My experience in a former religious life, is that the mentally ill are drawn
 to the religious life... There's even a rare neurological sickness (caused by
 accidents and brain defects in certain parts of the brain ) in wich the
 patient has trancesdental  experiences and direct contact with god.
 
Ooh, and then there's the apparent tongue of Babel. Glossolalia, or speaking
in tongues, is sometimes said to be the human core language.

 Interestingly, you can reproduce that experience with some mushrooms or roots
 from the amazon florest, there's even a cult in Brazil that uses them...
 (more incredible, is that its alucinations are individualistic... someone
 that believes in buda, will feel Buda... Jeovah, etc... there are people
 (usually atheists) that say they talked with aliens and space ghosts :)))
 This drug will even eliminate addictions.. There are heroin, tabaco, etc
 addicts that will have their addictions eliminated after a section with the
 so called sacrament...
 
Weird.

 Wich is very, very interesting for the god in our brains seems to clear
 our deepest fears and pain.

Have there ever been studies done on the actual, physical effects of
religion on the human brain? It definitely seems valid to say that SOMETHING
occurs within the mind when one assumes a faith, something which would
definitely be worthwhile to look into... Anyone know?
~~SAM 
 Yours faithfully,
 
 Andri Esteves

Re: OPPOSE THE WAR! We are going to ruin Iraq to get the oil. Who's ne

[Harmon Seaver]

On Thu, Nov 14, 2002 at 11:13:06AM -0500, Mike Diehl wrote:
 Dubbya has only been in office about a year and a half, and in that time, he 
 has destroyed Freedom in this country?  I don't think so.  I'm still able to 
 practice my religion freely. 

   How wonderful for you. Many of us sincerely wish we could practice our
religion freely as well. 


 I can criticize my government and stay out of 
 prison.

   Can you? As long as you do it at home or in your local bar, I suppose. Try
taking it out on the street and getting in their face.

  I don't have soldiers living with/watching me.

   Plenty of pigs watching a lot of us. The fedzis are everywhere these
days. Perhaps you've heard about them infiltrating church groups, demanding the
reading lists from libraries, etc. How do you know they haven't bugged your
house? Your computer? Got Carnivore at your ISP? 


  Saddam is just as 
 bad as most dictators, but let's not confuse the issue; he's still a DICTATOR!

What do you call an unelected president?

 
  Dubbya and Asscruft have millions of people in prison for doing
   nothing wrong, only violating their bullshit rules in the War On Some
   Drugs. 
 
 Hey, the law is posted.  You may not agree with it, but it is the law.

   Fuck that. The Nazis posted a law saying all Jews were illegal. People didn't
agree with it, but it was the law -- right? 

  I 
 wouldn't have agreed with Prohibition, but I would have followed the law 
 while at the same time trying to abolish it. 

 Yup, just following orders, right? 

 Guess what, I have that 
 freedom, still.  Personall, I don't care what you do in the privacy of your 
 own home, but I won't want to drive on the same street, go to work with, or 
 have my child watched, by anyone who is high on some drug.

   You don't use any drugs yourself, of course. Never touch any alcohol or
tobacco, eh?

  If that means 
 smoking dope keeps someone from being imployed, that's not my problem.
 
Yes, I keep hearing this same theme from a lot of fat-cat amerikans -- I
don't care what the gov't does, they aren't bothering me. I don't care if they
read my email. I don't have anything to hide, who cares if they tap all the
phones?


  They have killed thousands of innocent Afghans, and are intent
   on murdering hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis just to steal
   their oil. This makes Dubbya a mass-murder far beyond the scale of
   Saddam.
 
 Well, mass-murder is a bit strong.  I believe we are motivated by oil; not 
 arguement there. 

   So it's okay to take what belongs to someone else if your strong enough to do
it, eh? Hmmm, where do you live? Got any nice toys? How much cash do you usually
carry?


 Perhapse Dubbya is looking out for the US's, and his own? 
 best interests.  I'll bet you drive a car and like a warm home, and like that 
 electricity stuff. 

Yup, but I'm making my own biodiesel to run my van and pickup on, and soon
will have a gasifier to produce all the heat and electricity I need from
biomass, mostly waste. But we lived for 18 years with *no* electricity and only
wood for all our heating and cooking, it's no biggy. I don't need or want a drop
of Iraqi oil.

 Well, it all NEEDS OIL!  The average American Sheep would 
 riot in the street if they couldn't drive their SUV to church on sunday.
 
   
You sound pretty much like one of those sheeple. I'll laugh my ass off when
the oil well goes dry. I sincerly hope a lot of those fat ass amerikans who
support the likes of Dubbya starve and freeze to death.


-- 
Harmon Seaver   
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

War is just a racket ... something that is not what it seems to the
majority of people. Only a small group knows what its about. It is
conducted for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the
masses.  --- Major General Smedley Butler, 1933

Our overriding purpose, from the beginning through to the present
day, has been world domination - that is, to build and maintain the
capacity to coerce everybody else on the planet: nonviolently, if
possible, and violently, if necessary. But the purpose of US foreign
policy of domination is not just to make the rest of the world jump
through hoops; the purpose is to faciliate our exploitation of
resources.
- Ramsey Clark, former US Attorney General
http://www.thesunmagazine.org/bully.html

Re: News: House votes life sentences for hackers (fwd)

[Tyler Durden]

Holy Shit!

Does that mean that some 18-year-old script kiddie could get LIFE?

If this wasn't such an immense pile of stupidity, I'd get angry over the 
obvious invasions of privacy, etc...

Having worked in many a company, I KNOW how most management systems work. 
Let's say there's something as simple as a DoS attack that could take down 
Company A. Programmer Joe Shmo recognizes this and tells his boss, who wants 
to cover his own ass and tells HIS boss about the problem. This boss will 
then think about the issue for 3 seconds, and reply well, hackers get life 
in prison now so no one will ever try it. Meanwhile, guys who don't care 
about getting life (Osama's posse, who probably won't even live in the US 
for this) will say: Shit these guys are stupid! We just found a way to take 
down the whole US economy with 20 lines of code!

Send script kiddies away for life? How about sending the CTOs of publically 
traded companies away for life if something as simple as a DoS attack robs 
little old ladies of their retirement $?








From: Jim Choate [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: News: House votes life sentences for hackers (fwd)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 07:31:38 -0600 (CST)

http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1105-965750.html


 --


We don't see things as they are,  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
we see them as we are.   www.ssz.com
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Anais Nin www.open-forge.org





_
MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* 
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus

RE: OPPOSE THE WAR! We are going to ruin Iraq to get the oil. Who's next?

[GaryJeffers]

My Fellow Cypherpunks,

 
Nomen Nescio writes

Gary Jeffers writes:

The purpose of the coming Iraq war is to steal their oil. After we get 
 Iraq oil, which arab country is next? If U. State can get away with the
theft of Iraq, then why not just keep on stealing?
The beneficiaries of this war are:
1. United State:
2. Corporations, connected.
3. The ruling elite families.
4. The Zionists.

Nomen Nescio writes
Even if all this were true, so what? All of the groups above woulddo better things with the oil. The represent the forces of enterprise,initiative and enlightenment in the world today. 
OH, WHERE TO START?
How about United State(s)?
Here are a few of the items:

1. We got the American land by alternating 
 1.slaughtering Indians, goto 2.
 2. make peace treaty, goto 3
 3. break peace treaty, goto 1
Its bad enough that we killed the Indians, but dishonoring ourselfs by breaking our word is just beyond the pale.
oh yes, we used germ warfare - the infected blankets. This was back in the old days when we had "moral fiber".

2. We got silly and got into WW1. Its ok to get silly but don't get into a WW with it.

3. By crushing Germany with reparations we helped start WW2 - basically a continuation of WW1 ("the war to end all wars").

4. FDR forced the Japs into war by embargoing steel and oil to them. He also silenced the Pearl Harbor attack alarm.

5. We had the fire storm bombings of the German cities.

6. After Japan was pushing hard for a peace treaty, Truman unnecessarily dropped 2 fission bombs on Jap cities.

7. Johnson's Gulf of Tolken resolution, after his Tolken attack lie.

8. Alice Glasspie, US Ambassadore to Iraq, tells Saddam that "Iraq's relations with Kuwait Iraq's business" and thus starts Desert Storm war.
 Saddam is fooled into attacking. THE US STARTED THE WAR!

9. Wasn't it the Kuwait Ambassadore's kid who lied about the premature Kuwait babies being taken out of the incubators by evil Iraqis and then 
 incubators taken to Iraq. US Press ate this lie up and fed it to US people. This got US people sentiment up for war.

10. We defeat Iraq in DESERT STORM war and then throw giangantically expensive victory away by leaving Saddam in power.

11. Then to force Iraq people to get rid of Saddam, we imbargo Iraq's oil and thus starve millions of people for years.

12 Previous imbargo, Cuba still going strong - for decades. We put millions of people in poverty to encourage people to overthrow Castro.
 Say! Do Saddam and Castro eat well?

13. Spanish American war started when one of our warships accidentally explodes. Captain thought it was an accident. Hearst press 
 propagandises that Spain did it to start war. We started another war.

14. 9/11 done by CIA, Zionists, corporations, other U.S. elements and ruling elites to start war to steal arab countrieS oil. - Arabs blamed.
 WHO BENEFITS?!

15. Bush the Elder, former CIA chief and oil family man becomes US president.
 A few elections later, his son Bush Jr.(govenor of Texas) becomes president after unbelievable close election - decided in brother 
 govenors(son of former CIA chief) Florida state after lots of voter fraud and JUDICIAL DECISION. HEY! IS SOMETHING QUEER GOING ON HERE?

16. Oh yes, we put Saddam into power and supported him in Iran war. We also supplied him hugely with weapons.

16,. I believe that it was not too long ago that we supported Bin Laden?

17. Gun control

18. Private Federal Reserve and IRS. 


fools see 17 and 18.
Democracy see 4, 6, 7, 8, 14

Well, I could go on but I have used up enought time. 
Harmons right, someone's going to have to disarm US of WMD. We are the psycopaths. History proves it :-) History also proves that the American 
people have been huge fools for the last 89 years.



Nomen Nescio writes



 What is the alternative?Iraq? Saddam Hussein? You think the world is a better place withsomeone like him controlling Iraqi oil?He's no better than any of the groups above. He took power by forceand rules his country with an iron fist. See the recent elections -100% of the vote was supposedly for Hussein! What a joke.How can anyone claim that the U.S. or Israel or corporations or richAmericans are morally worse than the likes of Hussein?A 21st century where democratic, liberal Western democracies control theworld will be far more prosperous, safe and free than one where backwards,repressive, religious ideologies like Islam dominate.The mere fact that you feel free to criticize the U.S., but would nevergo to Iraq and criticize Hussein just proves the point. Sure, freedomof speech is not absolute in the U.S., and the degree of protection hasfluctuated; during WWI people were sent to jail for critic!
 izing the draft,but we're nowhere near that point now.But these freedoms are non-existant in Iraq, China, and other countrieswhich are the real threat to peace and freedom in the coming decades.Look at http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/?id=3235 which describesa case in neighboring Iran where a respected 

Re: The End of the Golden Age of Crypto

[Peter Fairbrother]

Jim Choate wrote:

 
 On Wed, 13 Nov 2002, Peter Fairbrother wrote:
 
 Jim Choate wrote:
 
 
 What I'd like to know is does Godel's apply to all forms of
 para-consistent logic as well

 
 However you can have eg arithmetics without Peano counting, and so on, and
 there are (trivial according to Godel, but even he acknowledged that they
 exist) systems that are both complete (all problems have answers) and
 consistent (no statement is both true and false).
 
 [SSZ: text deleted]
 
 Can you do interesting things in such systems? Yes. But you tend to leave
 intuition behind.
 
 What the hell does 'counting' have to do with para-consistent logic on
 this? Extraordinary claims...

Godel's (allegedly?) applies, as Ben pointed out, to any sufficiently
complex system. The requirement of sufficient complexity is that the
system contains Peano counting.

Systems described by Presburger, by Skolem, and by Tarski are among those
which do not include Peano counting, and which are both consistent and
complete.

The relevance of non-Peano counting is simply that you can often do more
things in a system that includes some form of counting.


One way of stating Godel is No system that includes Peano counting is both
consistent and complete.

 The answer of course is Yes, Godel's applies to Para-Consistent Logic.

Trivially, to the extent that all paraconsistent systems are not consistent
by definition, you can say yes.

You can also say no! Not all paraconsistent systems include Peano
counting. Depends what you mean by apply.

Godel also has connotations of consequences _within_ the system, eg
regarding decideability. Let me introduce a term, Godellike, to describe a
system that obeys those supposed consequences.

Are paraconsistent systems Godellike? Not necessarily, that's one of the
reasons for the development of paraconsistent systems.

 What really matters is the 'complete', not the 'consistent'. Godel's
 doesn't apply to incomplete systems because by definition there are
 statements which can be made which can't be expressed, otherwise it would
 be complete. You can't prove something if you can't express it since there
 is no way to get the machine to 'hold' it to work on it.

Ahh, those problems of definition again. Complete is normally* taken to
mean that every statement expressable within a system is provably true or is
provably false within the system. I don't know offhand of any paraconsistent
systems that have that property, but it's not impossible afaik.

IMO complete has nothing to do with statements which can be made which
can't be expressed - though I may be wrong, as I don't understand exactly
what that means.

-- Peter Fairbrother

*As in Godel's other famous theorem, the completeness theorem, which is
completely (ouch) different to his incompleteness theorem, the one we are
discussing.

Re: OPPOSE THE WAR! We are going to ruin Iraq to get the oil. Who's ne

[Mike Diehl]

On Thursday 14 November 2002 11:29 pm, Harmon Seaver wrote:
 How wonderful for you. Many of us sincerely wish we could practice
  our religion freely as well.

And just who is stopping you?  And what religion is it?

   I can criticize my government and stay out of
   prison.
 Can you? As long as you do it at home or in your local bar, I
  suppose. Try taking it out on the street and getting in their face.

H.  What do you mean by getting in their face?

I don't have soldiers living with/watching me.
 Plenty of pigs watching a lot of us. The fedzis are everywhere
  these days. Perhaps you've heard about them infiltrating church
  groups, demanding the reading lists from libraries, etc. How do you
  know they haven't bugged your house? Your computer? Got Carnivore at
  your ISP?

Well, between gpg, cryptofs, and IPSec, I doubt that they have my computer 
bugged, and I don't worry about Carnivore.  I can and do encrypt anything I 
don't wish to share.

Saddam is just as
   bad as most dictators, but let's not confuse the issue; he's still a
   DICTATOR!
  What do you call an unelected president?

I wouldn't know.  I've never seen one.  Oh wait! Your not refering to Dubbya, 
are ya?  I can't help it if our election system is flawed, but most are.

 Fuck that. The Nazis posted a law saying all Jews were illegal.
  People didn't agree with it, but it was the law -- right?

Outlawing pot and Genocide are two different things.  

   wouldn't have agreed with Prohibition, but I would have followed the
   law while at the same time trying to abolish it.
   Yup, just following orders, right?

What a major distortion of what I said.  It wouldn't hurt most people to 
sober up and come down from whatever they took last night and start living in 
the real world.

   Guess what, I have that
   freedom, still.  Personall, I don't care what you do in the privacy
   of your own home, but I won't want to drive on the same street, go
   to work with, or have my child watched, by anyone who is high on
   some drug.
 You don't use any drugs yourself, of course. Never touch any
  alcohol or tobacco, eh?

Like I said, what I do in my own house is MY business.

If that means
   smoking dope keeps someone from being imployed, that's not my
   problem.
  Yes, I keep hearing this same theme from a lot of fat-cat
  amerikans -- I don't care what the gov't does, they aren't bothering
  me. I don't care if they read my email. I don't have anything to
  hide, who cares if they tap all the phones?

Name-calling?  How sad.  I guess you are trying to attribute these statements 
to me?  I've never said any of this.  I'm not a fat-cat, and I don't agree 
with any of these statements.  Kinda blows your arguement.

   Well, mass-murder is a bit strong.  I believe we are motivated by
   oil; not arguement there.
 So it's okay to take what belongs to someone else if your strong
  enough to do it, eh? Hmmm, where do you live? Got any nice toys? How
  much cash do you usually carry?

Yer assuming that you are stong enough to take it.  I never said it was 
ok; I said the term mass-murder was a bit strong.  I even said that I didn't 
argue the point.  

   Perhapse Dubbya is looking out for the US's, and his own?
   best interests.  I'll bet you drive a car and like a warm home, and
   like that electricity stuff.
  Yup, but I'm making my own biodiesel to run my van and pickup on,
  and soon will have a gasifier to produce all the heat and electricity
  I need from biomass, mostly waste. But we lived for 18 years with *no*
  electricity and only wood for all our heating and cooking, it's no
  biggy. I don't need or want a drop of Iraqi oil.

And do you think that your solution scales well?  How long would it take to 
fix someone like me up?  Probably a long time, but I don't know.

   Well, it all NEEDS OIL!  The average American Sheep would
   riot in the street if they couldn't drive their SUV to church on
   sunday.
  You sound pretty much like one of those sheeple. I'll laugh my ass
  off when the oil well goes dry. I sincerly hope a lot of those fat ass
  amerikans who support the likes of Dubbya starve and freeze to death.

No, I just don't agree with you.  That doesn't make me a sheep.  So, you will 
laugh at amerikans starving and freezing, but you think it's wrong for 
amerika to do what it's doing?  Typical.

-- 
Mike Diehl
PGP Encrypted E-mail preferred.
Public Key via: http://dominion.dyndns.org/~mdiehl/mdiehl.asc

Re: Fwd: [fc] list of papers accepted to FC'03

[IanG]

 List of papers accepted to FC'03
 

I see pretty much a standard list of crypto papers
here, albeit crypto with a waving of finance salt.

What ever happened to Financial Cryptography?  The
organisers did say they were going to look at wider
accessibility for the coming year, but I see only
these papers that are, from the titles at least,
anything that speaks to non-cryptographers:

 Fully Private Auctions in a Constant Number of Rounds
 Felix Brandt

 Squealing Euros: Privacy Protection in RFID-Enabled Banknotes
 Ari Juels and Ravikanth Pappu

 How Much Security is Enough to Stop a Thief?
 Stuart E. Schechter and Michael D. Smith

 On the Economics of Anonymity
 Alessandro Acquisti and Roger Dingledine and Paul Syverson

Even they're a stretch.  All are specialised, and
none are of interest to the non-deep-techies.

On a related front, how much interest is there in
running EFCE this coming June?

-- 
iang

Yet another attempt to defraud egold!

[Sunder]

This morning I received this threatening letter, apparently from egold
claiming that my maximum balance would be set to zero if I don't promptly
mail them notarized copies of various ID's... Oh, and somehow the
defrauder believes that my true name is Thomas something or other...

As I have no relationship whatsoever with egold and as I did receive the
last attempt at defrauding egold by spam from e-golb.com, I thought I'd
expose this.

Notice the 1st receive line it's from
[EMAIL PROTECTED] vewwwy suspicious!

Any idea what lives at 175 East Nasa Blvd, Melbourne FL 32901?  Google
shows Assurance Technology Corp, Bank of America (via SpaceCoastEDC
(Flordia's Space Coast Economic Development Commission. web page.)

Likely it's a big office building, so it could be several addresses
there... I wonder which TLA or scam artist this is.



From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fri Nov 15 09:53:04 2002 -0500
Status: R
X-Status: A
X-Keywords:
Received: from 12-237-54-46.client.attbi.com ([EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[12.237.54.46])
for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Fri, 15 Nov 2002 09:53:03 -0500 (EST)
Received: from 216.53.150.250 (HELO maple.omnipay.net)
  by smtp.c000.snv.cp.net (209.228.32.87) with SMTP; Fri, 15 Nov 2002 15:15:03 
+
Received: by MAPLE with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2655.55)
  id TBHXL3DL; Fri, 15 Nov 2002 15:15:03 +
From: Service EG [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Tomasz Sliwka [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [e-gold-service] We have set a value limit on your e-gold account
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2655.55)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 15:15:03 +
Message-ID: Wrpdv}#VolzndWrpdv}#Volznd@MAPLE
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1

HTMLHEADTITLE[e-gold-service]/TITLE
META http-equiv=Content-Type content=text/html; charset=us-ascii
META name=GENERATOR/HEAD
BODYDear Tomasz Sliwka,BRBRThis is a due diligence request.BRBRWe have 
set a value limit on your e-gold accountBR(For security purposes, your e-gold 
account number is not specified in this email.)BRof US $500 in accordance with 
Right of Association provisionsBRof the e-gold Account User 
Agreement:BRBRA 
href=http://www.e-gold.cc/unsecure/e-g-agree.htm;http://www.e-gold.com/unsecure/e-g-agree.htm/A
 
BRBRIf we detect that multiple e-gold accounts are being used to circumvent 
thisBRvalue limit, we will set the value limit on all related accounts to 
zeroBRwithout further notice in accordance with e-gold Ltd.'s Right of 
AssociationBRPolicy located in the e-gold Account User Agreement (see Refusal 
WithoutBRCause).BRBRWe require the following immediate action:BRBR1. 
Review point of contact and User information via the applicable form fromBRthe 
e-gold Account Manager:BRBRA 
href=https://www.e-gold.cc/acct/manager.htm;https://www.e-gold.com/acct/manager.htm/ABRBRWe
 
may verify the accuracy of this information (see item 3 below);BRtherefore, it 
is imperative that this information be complete and correct.BRPromptly make 
any necessary changes via the web interface.BRBRIf verification efforts 
demonstrate any information to be incorrect, we willBRset the value limit on 
your e-gold account to zero without further notice.BRBR2. Mail (or 
preferably, use a courier service such as Fed Ex or DHL)BRoriginal notarized 
copies of all of the following information:BRBRa) A signed and notarized 
affidavit listing: Names, addresses, and telephoneBRnumbers of the principal 
owners of e-gold account.BRBRb) Copy of a telephone or utility bill that has 
the same address stated inBRitem A.BRBRc) Notarized copies of Passport or 
Driver's license of each principal owner.BRBR[Other requirements added 
dependent on situation]BRBRaddressed to:BRBRGamp;SRBR175 East Nasa 
Blvd.BRSuite 300BRMelbourne, FL 32901BRAttn: Due Diligence UnitBRBRIf 
all requested information is not received within fourteen (14) business 
days,BRthe value limit on your e-gold account will be set to zero without 
furtherBRnotice.BRBRIf all requested information is received within the 
allotted responseBRinterval, the value limit on your e-gold account will be 
removed.BRBR3. We will verify physical address of record (see item 1) via 
postal mail.BRIf we are unable to verify physical address, we will set the 
value limit onBRyour e-gold account to zero without further 
notice.BRBRSincerely,BRBRDue Diligence 
UnitBRwww.e-gold.comBRBR/BODY/HTML


--Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---
 + ^ + :NSA got $20Bil/year |Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :and didn't stop 9-11|share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
--*--:Instead of rewarding|monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :their failures, we  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :should get refunds! |site, and you must change them very often.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.sunder.net 

Re: Where's Osama? (Re: OPPOSE THE WAR! We are going to ruin Iraq to get the oil. Who's next)

[Adam Stenseth]

On Thu, 14 Nov 2002, Sunder wrote:

 (assuming that we'd win that Vietnam**2 war - Ha!),

Just as a small aside, I think it's worth noting that every war
the US has gotten involved in since Vietnam has been called Vietnam 2 by
somebody: The first Iraq war, Kosovo, Somalia(even those two weren't
actually wars, perse), Afghanistan.  So far, not one of them has turned
out to be.

Is there any overwhelming reason to believe that going back to
Iraq would be any different?

-adam

Assassination Politics: Coming soon?

[Keith Ray]

It's been a number of years since Jim Bell wrote his infamous Assassination
Politics essay.  If someone were to try to implement the system today and not
share Jim Bell's fate, they would need absolute anonymity and security.  The
technical requirements for implementing the system are:

1. Anonymous and secure communication between the organization and the
contributors and guessors.

2. Anonymous payment system.

3. Anonymous public presense of the organization to solicit contributions and
display bounties to potential assassins.

At the time AP was written, only the first requirement could have been met using
the mixmaster remailer network.  The last two requirements were not yet
available.   However, two new systems, DMT and Freenet, could be used to meet
the anonymous payment and anonymous public presense requirements.

If someone did want to implement AP, would DMT/Yodel, Freenet, and Mixmaster be
good enough to keep the TLA's from shutting the system down?  

 --
Keith Ray [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- OpenPGP Key: 0x79269A12

Re: OPPOSE THE WAR! We are going to ruin Iraq to get the oil. Who's ne

[Steve Furlong]

On Thursday 14 November 2002 12:16, Harmon Seaver wrote:

It's all relative -- what Dubbya and Asscruft have done to destroy
 freedom in the US is far worse than anything Saddam has done. Iraq
 had no freedom to lose.

So...When Iraqis are tortured to death, it's not really that bad because 
they're just wogs and don't know any better?


Dubbya and Asscruft have millions of people in prison for doing
 nothing wrong, only violating their bullshit rules in the War On Some
 Drugs.

I agree that the WoSD is bullshit, but get some historical perspective. 
The WoSD has been in place for thirty years (Nixon), or for almost a 
century (vil blacks and hispanics using marijuana to seduce white 
women). Bush43 and Ashcroft have been in office less than two years, 
and neither was alive when _Reefer Madness_ came out..


 They have killed thousands of innocent Afghans

Thousands of Afghans has been thoroughly debunked. Only the very 
stupid continue to believe or propagate it.


Not that Klinton was any better.

Bubba was much worse. He killed people to distract attention from his 
crimes. Bush43 at least has a supportable rationale, whether or not you 
agree with it.


Now, I am far from a Bush43 supporter. I have serious concerns about his 
interest in the rights of Americans. But idiots like Harmon Seaver make 
it more difficult to effectively oppose Bush43 and Asscruft (*) because 
their supporters need only point to the idiots to discredit all of the 
opposition.

(*) I'm the one who came up with that nickname, so you can assume that 
my opinion of him is not favorable.

SRF

-- 
Steve FurlongComputer Condottiere   Have GNU, Will Travel

Vote Idiotarian --- it's easier than thinking

Re: OPPOSE THE WAR! We are going to ruin Iraq to get the oil. Who's ne

[Mike Diehl]

On Thursday 14 November 2002 12:16 pm, Harmon Seaver wrote:
 It's all relative 

Ya, very relative.

 -- what Dubbya and Asscruft have done to destroy
  freedom in the US is far worse than anything Saddam has done. Iraq had
  no freedom to lose. Is Saddam really any different than any other
  mid-east dictator? For that matter, the people of Korea are suffering
  far worse, and they're developing WOMD too -- why don't we attack
  them?

Dubbya has only been in office about a year and a half, and in that time, he 
has destroyed Freedom in this country?  I don't think so.  I'm still able to 
practice my religion freely.  I can criticize my government and stay out of 
prison.  I don't have soldiers living with/watching me.  Saddam is just as 
bad as most dictators, but let's not confuse the issue; he's still a DICTATOR!

 Dubbya and Asscruft have millions of people in prison for doing
  nothing wrong, only violating their bullshit rules in the War On Some
  Drugs. 

Hey, the law is posted.  You may not agree with it, but it is the law.  I 
wouldn't have agreed with Prohibition, but I would have followed the law 
while at the same time trying to abolish it.  Guess what, I have that 
freedom, still.  Personall, I don't care what you do in the privacy of your 
own home, but I won't want to drive on the same street, go to work with, or 
have my child watched, by anyone who is high on some drug.  If that means 
smoking dope keeps someone from being imployed, that's not my problem.

 They have killed thousands of innocent Afghans, and are intent
  on murdering hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis just to steal
  their oil. This makes Dubbya a mass-murder far beyond the scale of
  Saddam.

Well, mass-murder is a bit strong.  I believe we are motivated by oil; not 
arguement there.  Perhapse Dubbya is looking out for the US's, and his own? 
best interests.  I'll bet you drive a car and like a warm home, and like that 
electricity stuff.  Well, it all NEEDS OIL!  The average American Sheep would 
riot in the street if they couldn't drive their SUV to church on sunday.

 Not that Klinton was any better.

Not EVEN going to go there grin

-- 
Mike Diehl
PGP Encrypted E-mail preferred.
Public Key via: http://dominion.dyndns.org/~mdiehl/mdiehl.asc

Re: Yet another attempt to defraud egold!

[Sunder]

Also, this scammer has registered www.e-gold.cc which nic.cc doesn't give
full into in whois.  If you look at the urls, the human visible part says
www.e-gold.com, but the anchor tag actually points to www.e-gold.cc.

I noticed this after sending the original email to cypherpunks.

--Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---
 + ^ + :NSA got $20Bil/year |Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :and didn't stop 9-11|share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
--*--:Instead of rewarding|monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :their failures, we  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :should get refunds! |site, and you must change them very often.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.sunder.net 

Re: The End of the Golden Age of Crypto

[Peter Fairbrother]

Tim May wrote:
 
 There are a lot of Godel anecdotes to tell. I never met him.
 
 Two things about his theory:
 
 1. There's a more powerful (IMNSHO) formulation of it in terms of
 algorithmic information theory, usually associated with Greg Chaitin
 but also drawing on the AIT work of Kolmogorov and others. This says,
 in informal language, no theory can describe something more
 complicated than itself. If a theory has 20 bits of complexity, things
 of 21 bits or more just can't be described/proved. Rudy Rucker has a
 good description of this in his excellent book Mind Tools. And
 Chaitin has authored several books and a few very readable Scientific
 American types of articles. Google will have more on his sites, his
 papers.

I wonder at the real-world relevance. Even Peano arithmetic needs an axiom
scheme containing an infinite number of axioms (as does Presburger
arithmetic). 

I also doubt the rigor of Chaitin's work, but I'm just stating an opinion
here. He seems to omit except it doesn't apply here, and say more than he
has proved.

I suppose in terms of 15 axiom 2 rule first order predicate calculus it
might be important, but who needs that? (dons flameproof suit, I didn't mean
it entirely seriously)


 
 2. This said, my point about not looking to Godelian undecidability
 sorts of issues for crypto is that it just appears to be too far out
 there. Nobody, to my knowledge, has ever found a way to make such
 things useful in crypto...not even things like Presburger arithmetic,
 which is harder than NP-complete but not yet Godelian undecideable.

Here I agree, but I'd add the qualification so far. For instance
Paris-Harrington might lead to something interesting (though it's at most
tangential to Godelian undecideability).

-- Peter Fairbrother

Re: Fwd: [fc] list of papers accepted to FC'03

[James A. Donald]

--


On 15 Nov 2002 at 10:55, IanG wrote:


  List of papers accepted to FC'03 
  

 I see pretty much a standard list of crypto papers here,
 albeit crypto with a waving of finance salt.

Theory of what could be implemented has run well ahead of what
has in fact been implemented.

This has doubtless reduced enthusiasm for the theory. 

--digsig
 James A. Donald
 6YeGpsZR+nOTh/cGwvITnSR3TdzclVpR0+pr3YYQdkG
 XmqKAbnJ3zxWonUYjLQTEauIWVuczMy3fiZXjszK
 4BOXbFJHRJ+piLFRffQdmB84zd8OiOgRKr7wytw+r

Re: Retry: Yet another attempt to defraud egold!

[Sunder]

It is a fake, I contacted e-gold before posting it here and sent them the
email with headers, they've confirmed it and are attempting to shut down
the web site of the spoofer.

What's disturbing about this is that we are on someone's list as e-gold
customers or something, and this is very likely the same spoofer that had
earlier set up e-golb.com and attempted the same kind of spoof.

This time the urls point to e-gold.cc, but nic.cc doesn't give out much
info for them.  i.e. address, phone #, etc (not that I'd rely on those
being true anyway...)

The ip of the one I got came from a 12.x.x.x network address, I believe
these are DSL lines.  So likely the attacker looked around for open relays
and found one, and used it.  I didn't notice that ip in the headers Tim
sent, so this is likely what has happened.  Tracing the miscreant will
come down to tracing the ip address of the forged web site.


Update: I've just looked up e-gold and that address does belong to
e-gold's technical contact (See www.opensrs.org..) So the spoofer wasn't
attempting to get ID's after all (unless it's an inside job or the
technical contact is in on the scam - but if they were, they could
just change the DNS entry...) but rather get logins redirected to
their site.


--Kaos-Keraunos-Kybernetos---
 + ^ + :NSA got $20Bil/year |Passwords are like underwear. You don't /|\
  \|/  :and didn't stop 9-11|share them, you don't hang them on your/\|/\
--*--:Instead of rewarding|monitor, or under your keyboard, you   \/|\/
  /|\  :their failures, we  |don't email them, or put them on a web  \|/
 + v + :should get refunds! |site, and you must change them very often.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.sunder.net 

On Fri, 15 Nov 2002, Eric Murray wrote:

 On Fri, Nov 15, 2002 at 10:02:54AM -0800, Tim May wrote:
  On Friday, November 15, 2002, at 08:59  AM, Tim May wrote:
   I received a similar letter, and also one from PayPal/EBay which was
   quite similar in language. The full headers of the E-gold letter are
   included at the end of this message.
   Here are the headers of the E-gold message I got:
  
   From:
  
   [demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type image/tiff which had a 
   name of image.tiff]
  
  
  
  The headers got demimed, at least on the version I got back from 
  lne.com.
 
 Image.tiff? Wierd.  Could you send me a copy of the one that got demimed?
 
  
  So, I hope what follows is plain text only. (My editors say it is.)
  
   From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fri Nov 15 08:05:42 2002
  Received: by sphinx (mbox tcmay)
(with Cubic Circle's cucipop (v1.31 1998/05/13) Fri Nov 15 08:10:44 
  2002)
  X-From_: [EMAIL PROTECTED]  Fri Nov 15 07:31:14 2002
  Return-Path: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Received: from psmtp.com (exprod5mx17.postini.com [64.75.1.157])
  by sphinx.got.net (8.12.2/8.12.2/Debian -5) with SMTP id gAFFVDap010192
  for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Fri, 15 Nov 2002 07:31:14 -0800
  Received: from source ([24.51.87.108]) by exprod5mx17 ([64.75.1.245]) 
  with SMTP;
  Fri, 15 Nov 2002 10:31:13 EST
 
 I'm guessing that 24.51.87.108 is the source and the Received
 line below is fake.
 24.51.87.108 is in a netblock owned by Adelphia.
 64.75.1.245 is an MX for got.net.  Its common for spammers
 to send their spam through MX hosts to bypass blacklists.
 
 I'd compare this to other e-gold mails to be sure but I'd
 say just from loking at the headers there's a strong chance its fake.
 
 
 
  Received: from 216.53.150.250 (HELO maple.omnipay.net)
 by smtp.c000.snv.cp.net (209.228.32.87) with SMTP; Fri, 15 
  Nov 2002 15:31:32 +
  Received: by MAPLE with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2655.55)
 id TBHXL3DL; Fri, 15 Nov 2002 15:31:32 +
  From: Service EG [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: e-gold customer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Subject: [e-gold-service] We have set a value limit on your e-gold 
  account
  X-Priority: 3
  X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
  X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2655.55)
  Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 15:31:32 +
  Message-ID: h0jrog#fxvwrphuh0jrog#fxvwrphu@MAPLE
  Mime-Version: 1.0
  Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
 
 
 Eric

Re: Poker

[Bill Stewart]

James Donald writes:
 In principle it should be possible to create poker playing
 software where the server cannot cheat, but it is not obvious
 to me how this can be done.

 Does anyone know of a cheat proof algorithm?


At 05:40 AM 11/15/2002 +0100, Nomen Nescio wrote:

Sure, there are any number of poker algoerithms which prevent the server
from cheating.  See the many literature references on Mental Poker.
One recent protocol is Kurosawa et al, IEICE Transactions on Fundamentals,
Vol E00-A, No. 1, January 1997.  It is available from citeseer.


Applied Cryptography has a brief discussion of the topic as well.
The problem is that algorithms are good for manipulating cards,
while poker is mainly about manipulating people.


The problem is that although you can stop the server from cheating, you
can't stop players from colluding outside the scope of the game protocols.
Two players could communicate by phone, revealing their cards to each
other and influencing the betting.  This kind of cheating can't be
prevented, and it can be significant in an n-player poker game.


The first rule of playing poker for money is to look around the table
and figure out who the sucker is.  If you can't tell, then it's you :-)

Re: Retry: Yet another attempt to defraud egold!

[Brian McWilliams]

Don't obsess on the message headers. Look at the scam site (the URL is 
cloaked in the e-mail):

https://www.e-gold.cc/acct/manager.htm

Unencoded, the HTML appears to be stuffing stolen account info into a page 
called https://a.e-gold.cc/acct.php

In other words, there's no throwaway Hotmail drop box, etc. All the goods 
are right on that server, which appears to be hosted by Hurricane Electric 
(he.net) in Cal.

They even have an SSL certificate, although you don't need to use https to 
access the site.

Clever scam, but I wonder how many victims they can hope for. It sounds 
like they're blindly spamming out that e-maill and don't have a customer 
list, although they could probably put one together from here: 
http://www.e-gold.com/unsecure/lists.html

Brian


At 01:02 PM 11/15/2002, Tim May wrote:
On Friday, November 15, 2002, at 08:59  AM, Tim May wrote:

I received a similar letter, and also one from PayPal/EBay which was
quite similar in language. The full headers of the E-gold letter are
included at the end of this message.
Here are the headers of the E-gold message I got:

From:

[demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type image/tiff which had a name 
of image.tiff]


The headers got demimed, at least on the version I got back from lne.com.

So, I hope what follows is plain text only. (My editors say it is.)

From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fri Nov 15 08:05:42 2002
Received: by sphinx (mbox tcmay)
 (with Cubic Circle's cucipop (v1.31 1998/05/13) Fri Nov 15 08:10:44 2002)
X-From_: [EMAIL PROTECTED]  Fri Nov 15 07:31:14 2002
Return-Path: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Received: from psmtp.com (exprod5mx17.postini.com [64.75.1.157])
by sphinx.got.net (8.12.2/8.12.2/Debian -5) with SMTP id 
gAFFVDap010192
for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Fri, 15 Nov 2002 07:31:14 -0800
Received: from source ([24.51.87.108]) by exprod5mx17 ([64.75.1.245]) with 
SMTP;
Fri, 15 Nov 2002 10:31:13 EST
Received: from 216.53.150.250 (HELO maple.omnipay.net)
  by smtp.c000.snv.cp.net (209.228.32.87) with SMTP; Fri, 15 Nov 
2002 15:31:32 +
Received: by MAPLE with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2655.55)
  id TBHXL3DL; Fri, 15 Nov 2002 15:31:32 +
From: Service EG [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: e-gold customer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [e-gold-service] We have set a value limit on your e-gold account
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2655.55)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 15:31:32 +
Message-ID: h0jrog#fxvwrphuh0jrog#fxvwrphu@MAPLE
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1

Where's Osama? (Re: OPPOSE THE WAR! We are going to ruin Iraq to get the oil. Who's next)

[Sunder]

On Wed, 13 Nov 2002, Tyler Durden wrote:

 Anyone guess where's Waldo (Osama) now? My guess he's on the end of a bungee 
 being kicked into Iraq right now! (The other end of the bungee is in a US 
 chopper!)

Osama is wherever Bush wants him to be.  Once we're done with Iraq
(assuming that we'd win that Vietnam**2 war - Ha!), Osama will magically
produce yet another audio or video tape from North Korea or whatever
nation Bush wants to make his next bitch.

At this point, we do have the technology to alter both video and audio,
and to build fake clips at will.  I don't believe that the latest audio
bite has been forged by us, but rather that the technology exists.  Likely
Osama is either dead or has had cosmetic surgery enough for him to live
the rest of his days in the French riviera, and what sound bites and
videos we have seen and will see are pre-recorded ones.


While I'm opposed to us going to war since I believe that between
Afghanistan and Iraq, we're opening ourselves up for a far worse beating
than Vientam in the long term, I'm far more opposed to the outright lies
being presented as reasons for doing so, and the sheer bald faced freedom
and privacy grabs that this is an excuse for.

Even if we pull a victory like we did in Japan and both democratise and
capitalize Afghanistan and Iraq, in the long term, they'll become economic
competition.  If we do Afghanistan again, like we did them after Russia
fell and abadon them without further support, it'll turn out the same as
it did, like Somalia and other failed abandoned overthrown states.

In the end, that will produce far more terrorists than we have seen to
date, more of our freedoms will be taken away unil an equilibrium of
rights will exist between the USA and dictatorships like Iraq.

Luckily there's only two more years before the next election...

Re: OPPOSE THE WAR! We are going to ruin Iraq to get the oil. Who's ne

[Harmon Seaver]

On Thu, Nov 14, 2002 at 11:31:23AM -0500, Ken Hirsch wrote:
 Harmon Seaver wrote:
 
I don't see that Saddam is any less moral than Dubbya and Asscruft.
 
 What can you possibly mean by saying this?  You lose all credibility for
 real criticism when you utter such inanities.  It's like comparing a
 shoplifter with Jeffrey Dahmer.  Either you're ignorant of what Saddam is
 about or you have no sense of proportion.

   It's all relative -- what Dubbya and Asscruft have done to destroy freedom in
the US is far worse than anything Saddam has done. Iraq had no freedom to
lose. Is Saddam really any different than any other mid-east dictator? For that
matter, the people of Korea are suffering far worse, and they're developing WOMD
too -- why don't we attack them? 
   Dubbya and Asscruft have millions of people in prison for doing nothing
wrong, only violating their bullshit rules in the War On Some Drugs. They have
killed thousands of innocent Afghans, and are intent on murdering hundreds of
thousands of innocent Iraqis just to steal their oil. This makes Dubbya a
mass-murder far beyond the scale of Saddam.
   Not that Klinton was any better. 

(snip)


-- 
Harmon Seaver   
CyberShamanix
http://www.cybershamanix.com

War is just a racket ... something that is not what it seems to the
majority of people. Only a small group knows what its about. It is
conducted for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the
masses.  --- Major General Smedley Butler, 1933

Our overriding purpose, from the beginning through to the present
day, has been world domination - that is, to build and maintain the
capacity to coerce everybody else on the planet: nonviolently, if
possible, and violently, if necessary. But the purpose of US foreign
policy of domination is not just to make the rest of the world jump
through hoops; the purpose is to faciliate our exploitation of
resources.
- Ramsey Clark, former US Attorney General
http://www.thesunmagazine.org/bully.html

Re: The End of the Golden Age of Crypto

[Mike Rosing]

On Thu, 14 Nov 2002, [iso-8859-1] Andri Isidoro Fernandes Esteves wrote:


 The religious person is always battling against reality wich with a minimum
 of inteligence from the observer always bring doubts on the truth of his
 faith.

 It's a state of mind wich  can only be compared with mental ilness...
 (I've read that there are even some neurological similarities between the
 faithful and the mentaly ill)

I won't disagree, but I think we better live in a bunker!

 The author of that statement: I have no need of that hipotheses was
 Laplace, french mathematician on answering Napoleon's question in why is book
 on newtonian mechanics didn't call for god.

thank you!  Looks like my date was off by 100 years :-)

Patience, persistence, truth,
Dr. mike

Re: The End of the Golden Age of Crypto

[André Esteves]

On Friday 15 November 2002 00:41, you wrote:
 Indeed, I've heard the same. One could argue that for someone to believe in
 something (religion) so intensely as to shun all moral explanation against
 this hypothesis and to persist in those beliefs without any proof is akin
 to schizophrenia. But that's a whole new kettle of fish.
 ~SAM

It all depends on the definition of sane...

As usually it's a religious force who imposes truth, the faithfull will 
remain normal ... :)

Manipulating the definion of normality is dangerous and only begets the 
temptation to use it to use other people...

We have examples of self-proclaimed atheist societies where this was used for 
political manipulation: psiquiatric institutions in the former USRR, or even 
some private institutions in USA that would do that for a hire.. (the case of 
the frontal lobotomy of Getty's son, ordered by Getty himself (wich probably 
was age demented by that time, but has people obey to anyone who has a fat 
checkbook...) 

We could also invoke memetics and say that religion is like a mental disorder 
that spreads through a population... A meme infecting minds as they are 
vulnerable to certain statements, emotions and tautological arguments.

My experience in a former religious life, is that the mentally ill are drawn 
to the religious life... There's even a rare neurological sickness (caused by 
accidents and brain defects in certain parts of the brain ) in wich the 
patient has trancesdental  experiences and direct contact with god.

Interestingly, you can reproduce that experience with some mushrooms or roots 
from the amazon florest, there's even a cult in Brazil that uses them...
(more incredible, is that its alucinations are individualistic... someone 
that believes in buda, will feel Buda... Jeovah, etc... there are people 
(usually atheists) that say they talked with aliens and space ghosts :)))
This drug will even eliminate addictions.. There are heroin, tabaco, etc 
addicts that will have their addictions eliminated after a section with the 
so called sacrament...

Wich is very, very interesting for the god in our brains seems to clear 
our deepest fears and pain. 

Yours faithfully,

Andri Esteves

Re: The End of the Golden Age of Crypto

[jayh]

I would however, reverse your two definitions, I think the word belief suggests the 
more rational, evidence based mental model, faith is a subset belief that requires no 
evidence.

All of us have beliefs (under my schema above) that are evidence based (we believe in 
the atomic model). Often our beliefs are all tagged with a mental estimate of their 
surety, based on perception of the evidence and the criticality of the belief, the 
side effects of it being wrong. Items whose falsehood is not critical can be believed 
with much less evidence than items whose falsehood is critical. I may believe that 
Walmart has the best  price on a coffeepot, and that is enough to commit a few dollars 
to the purchase, knowing I could be wrong but that it is not consequential. That same 
level of belief may not be adequate to purchase a Walmart parachute.

It's one thing to believe a newspaper story that a man has the legal name of 'Santa 
Claus', and a very different to believe he drives flying sleigh  reindeer, or that 
some 100 people wandered in a desert for 40 years WITHOUT A TRACE of evidence, 
while Egyptian military encampments (only a few dozen men)  in that same area and 
historic timeframe) have been well documented.

The key distinction between rationality and religious faith is that scientific, 
historical and other rational theories (beliefs) are known to be subject to revision, 
and are constantly evaluated in that framework. Religious faith, however, is not tied 
to evidence (sometimes searching for evidence is actively discouraged) and is 
considered true, not really subject to revision.

This is, I guess not surprising. A system that in principle takes over one's entire 
life would have problems if the subjects realized that what is 'right' today might not 
be right tomorrow. So skepticism is portrayed as evil, critical thinking discouraged 
and the truthset declared absolute to protect its stability and belief without 
evidence (faith) is represented as the highest pinnacle of thought. Protecting tat 
faith becomes more important than reaching quantifiable truths.

jay

Re: OPPOSE THE WAR! We are going to ruin Iraq to get the oil. Who's ne

[Steve Schear]

[A edited copy of a piece I published Oct 4th in the International 
Relations list.  steve]

I think that most Western nation leadership will eventually support the U.S.'
military action against Iraq. However, they may do so not because they
necessarily think Bush is right that Saddam's weapons are a threat to the
West, but because it is a politically acceptable pretext concealing longer
term economic and geo-political issues--ones they do not wish to share at
this time with their citizens.

Forked Tongue
The war with Iran, a heavily militarized powerful client state of the U.S.
under the dictatorship of the Shah, left Iraq bankrupt. Faced with
rebuilding its infrastructure destroyed in the war, Iraq needed money. No
country would loan it money except the U.S. Borrowing money from the U.S.
made Iraq its client state. A client State could take no action without the
permission of the more powerful nation.

In 1990 Saddam Hussein complained to our State Department about Kuwait's
illegal removal of Iraqi underground oil by slant drilling across the
border into Iraq. This had continued for years, but now Iraq needed the
money that this oil would supply to pay its bills. Saddam considered a war
with Kuwait but needed Washington's permission.

 From Ramsey Clark's The Fire This Time (1994, Thunder's Mouth Press),
pp.23-24:
On July 25 - the day after the United States announced Gulf exercises with
the UAE, while Iraqi troops were massing on the Kuwaiti border, and as
General Schwarzkopf readied CENTCOM for war against Iraq - Saddam Hussein
summoned Ambassador [April] Glaspie to his office in what seems to have
been a final attempt to clarify Washington's position on his dispute with
Kuwait. Glaspie assured him: We have no opinion on Arab-Arab conflicts,
like your border disagreement with Kuwait [Secretary of State] James
Baker has directed our official spokesmen to emphasize this instruction.
[83] She was expresssing official policy. On July 24, she had received a
cable from the State Department explicitly directing her to reiterate that
the United States had no position on Arab-Arab conflicts. [84]

After the war, on March 21, 1991, Glaspie denied this version of her
meeting with Hussein. She testified to the Senate Foreign Relations
Committee that she had repeatedly warned Hussein that the United States
would not tolerate Iraq's use of violence to settle the dispute with
Kuwait. She said Hussein had been too stupid to understand how the Unite
States would react. [85]

But in July 1991, Glaspie's cables to the State Department describing the
meeting were finally released to the Senate. The cable showed that her
Senate testimony was largely fabricated, and that the version released by
Iraq was accurate. [86]

On July 12, 1991 Committee Chairman Senator Claiborne Pell wrote an angry
letter to Secretary of State James Baker demanding an explanation for the
inconsistencies between Glaspie's testimony and the cable. Senator Alan
Cranston charged that Glaspie had deliberately misled Congress about her
role in the Gulf War. [the book continues with Assistant Secretary of State
Kelly telling a Congressional committee on 31 July that the US had no
treaty obligations to defend Kuwait]

Follow the Oil (eh, Money)
Its seems somewhat odd that our State Department would tell Iraq go ahead,
we don't care and shortly thereafter launch one of the largest military
actions in this century. Was this simple a case of crossed wires (pretty
hard to believe) or intentional, part of a long-term U.S. or Western
strategy to provide cover for future unilateral actions to assure the
unimpeded flow of oil? Its critical that Americans realize that Bush,
Chenney and some senior advisors come from the petroleum
industry. Whatever one may think of their politics, they are no fools when
it comes to oil.

Based on analysis of oil exploration records, Dr. M. King Hubbert developed
a model and predicted in 1956 that the USA would peak in its production of
oil around 1970. He was discouraged from disclosing this foreboding news by
his employers. He felt morally obligated to disclose the truth, and yet
when he did so, his peers laughed at him. As we all know, he was right on,
and the USA and the world suffered the first oil shock soon after the USA
reached the peak he predicted.

If oil production peaks are key economic turning points then the peak in
world production should be of keen interests to all economists; to all
citizens of developed countries. Dr. C.J.Campbell, Oil Depletion -
Updated Through 2001, http://www.hubbertpeak.com/campbell/update2002.htm
believes that ...the peak of Conventional oil may have been passed in
2000, the peak of all liquids (e.g., shale oil, etc) comes around 2010,
followed by the peak of all hydrocarbons around 2015. The entry of
deepwater production and growing NGL from gas is seen as critical. If they
come in as forecast, overall oil production need not fall below present
levels for about twenty years.

If, 

Re: Yet another attempt to defraud egold!

[Tim May]

On Friday, November 15, 2002, at 08:01  AM, Sunder wrote:

 This morning I received this threatening letter, apparently from egold
 claiming that my maximum balance would be set to zero if I don't 
 promptly
 mail them notarized copies of various ID's... Oh, and somehow the
 defrauder believes that my true name is Thomas something or other...

 As I have no relationship whatsoever with egold and as I did receive 
 the
 last attempt at defrauding egold by spam from e-golb.com, I thought I'd
 expose this.

 Notice the 1st receive line it's from
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] vewwwy suspicious!

 Any idea what lives at 175 East Nasa Blvd, Melbourne FL 32901?  Google
 shows Assurance Technology Corp, Bank of America (via SpaceCoastEDC
 (Flordia's Space Coast Economic Development Commission. web page.)

 Likely it's a big office building, so it could be several addresses
 there... I wonder which TLA or scam artist this is.


I received a similar letter, and also one from PayPal/EBay which was 
quite similar in language. The full headers of the E-gold letter are 
included at the end of this message.

I don't _have_ an E-gold account (never saw the need for it), so this 
letter is very strange.

I do have a PayPal account, used a couple of times. When I attempted to 
access the URL provided I got timed-out. No idea why. And I have no 
idea whether the timing of the two letters (both this morning) is 
related.

Here are the headers of the E-gold message I got:

From:

[demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type image/tiff which had a name of image.tiff]

[demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type image/tiff which had a name of image.tiff]

[demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type image/tiff which had a name of image.tiff]

[demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type image/tiff which had a name of image.tiff]

[demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type image/tiff which had a name of image.tiff]

[demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type image/tiff which had a name of image.tiff]

[demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type image/tiff which had a name of image.tiff]

[demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type image/tiff which had a name of image.tiff]

[demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type image/tiff which had a name of image.tiff]

[demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type image/tiff which had a name of image.tiff]

[demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type image/tiff which had a name of image.tiff]

[demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type image/tiff which had a name of image.tiff]

[demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type image/tiff which had a name of image.tiff]

[demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type image/tiff which had a name of image.tiff]

[demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type image/tiff which had a name of image.tiff]

[demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type image/tiff which had a name of image.tiff]
Dear e-gold customer,

This is a due diligence request.

We have set a value limit on your e-gold account
(For security purposes, your e-gold account number is not specified in 
this email.)
of US $500 in accordance with Right of Association provisions
of the e-gold Account User Agreement:

Re: News: House votes life sentences for hackers (fwd)

[Declan McCullagh]

On Fri, Nov 15, 2002 at 10:09:37AM -0500, Tyler Durden wrote:
 Holy Shit!
 
 Does that mean that some 18-year-old script kiddie could get LIFE?

Yes, that's what the law says. Has to be a malicious attack, etc. I linked
to the text of the bill -- you may want to read the gory details for yourself.

-Declan