RE: [darktable-user] Darktable 3.2, a short review

[Marc Cabuy]

Thanks Michael (sorry for late reaction, found your mail in my spam folder).

Indeed I posted already 2 questions on pixls.us and got very helpful
replies.
Marc.

-Oorspronkelijk bericht-
Van: Michael Rasmussen [mailto:m...@miras.org] 
Verzonden: donderdag 20 augustus 2020 20:49
Aan: darktable-user@lists.darktable.org
Onderwerp: Re: [darktable-user] Darktable 3.2, a short review

On Thu, 20 Aug 2020 20:21:33 +0200
Marc Cabuy  wrote:
> encountered in the very first weeks with dt. But is there somewhere a 
> blog (in English or French) that you can advise where ideas are 
> exchanged/posted about (creative) use of dt's capabilities?
> 
Have you tried this? https://pixls.us/

--
Hilsen/Regards
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Re: [darktable-user] Darktable 3.2, a short review

[Mikael Ståldal]

I guess it's a bit hard to define what is the "natural" look of bright 
sun, because we usually do not look directly at bright sun (since that 
could damage our eyes).



On 2020-09-01 17:26, Top Rock Photography wrote:
Do not get caught up on the Sharpen module. I remember reading an 
article which claimed that ALL digital images NEED sharpening, and 
justified it by claiming that ALL digital cameras do unsharpening with 
the OLPF, a.k.a., AA filter. This is not true. My Pentax, (and every 
Pentax since the K-5 IIs, and several other manufacturers since the K-5 
IIs), no longer put an OLPF on sensors with more than 16 Mpx.


The truth which Pentax realised is that there is no point to make 
something unsharp, just to try and sharpen it again with an unsharp 
mask. One gets more detail by simply never unsharpening it in the first 
place; no OLPF. Then why was it put there in the first place??? To 
combat moiré. Then why did Pentax get rid of it? Because on high Mpx 
sensors, moiré is less of a problem, and there are other ways to combat 
moiré than blurring an image, (and if one needed to, they have a 
simulated AA filter with two strengths options).


Fact is, that unless one has an OLPF in their camera, one probably does 
not need an unsharp mask, except for what it was invented. Back in the 
emulsion days, an unsharp mask was not a normal part of the workflow; it 
was a creative tool for a creative effect. (It also took advantage of 
“depletion zones” in emulsions, to bring about the effect. CMOS/CCD 
sensors do not have these depletion zones).


But, if one insists on using the Sharpen module, whenever I used it, (on 
the pre-3.2.1 releases), was to not use the default method, but the 
other method, and got better results. (I just opened up Dt to look at 
what the two methods were called, and realised that Dt ver 3.2.1 has 
only one method to do sharpening, or at least my build only has one 
method. Did not realise that until now, as I rarely use it).


Furthermore, if one will be scaling down the image to lower resolution, 
then sharpening is not only unnecessary, but whatever sharpening is done 
on the high Mpx original, will probably get lost, anyway, (depends on 
how much one re-sizes down).


Regarding highlight/shadow recovery, no real image processor can recover 
what was never there. If the sensor had hit saturation, the highlight 
detail is forever lost. If the light level was very low, then shot noise 
overwhelms the details, which can never be truly brought back. Some 
image processors use computer learning/AI to create what was never there 
in the first place, and sometimes, just sometimes, the results look 
acceptable. Usually, not natural.


In a video where Aurelein was demonstrating how to do professional edits 
with time constraints, someone submitted an awful image with a grossly 
under-exposed subject, with a heavily clipped sky, (sun behind clouds). 
One person had asked, when Aurelein was done, why the sun was not 
yellow. Well, the sun is NOT yellow, so it ought not be. However, some 
other programs, when they reconstruct such images, make the bright area 
quite yellow.


This is because, if one had a bright sun in a blue sky, as one 
approaches the sky, the blue is the first to clip, the red is the last. 
As the AI is trying to figure out what was supposed to be there, it 
concludes that what was there was obviously mostly blue, and least red, 
reproducing a mostly blue+green area, —the sensor is mostly green,— 
making the sun yellow. This fading into yellow may possibly look better 
than fading to a big white blob, but nevertheless is unnatural. This is 
what some are used to seeing when they “reconstruct/recover” the highlights.


Similarly for shadows, in that, what the AI thinks is there, may look 
better than what was actually there, but is nevertheless, unnatural.


What one may think is a “better job,” may just be what one is used to 
getting from badly coded AI algorithms.


Sincerely,

Karim Hosein
Top Rock Photography
754.999.1652



On Tue, 1 Sep 2020 at 04:39, Kneops > wrote:


DT is great :), the only two things that currently hold me back is that
I still think LR overall does a better job in highlight / shadow
recovery and detail/sharpness. I just played with an image of wooden
beach poles and LR gives me more detail and edge sharpness, even when
adding sharpness + local contrast + the highpass filter in DT.

I'm a linux user and have 2 pc's, and there is no doubt in my head that
I would turn my newest and really fast pc back into an Linux machine
too
if I can get those two things right, because I currently consider that
investment a waste of money if I only use it for LR. DT in Linux on
that
new pc is so fast I could not even see the thumbnails being created
during import, they were just there in a blink of an eye :).



Op 31-08-2020 om 21:28 schreef Matt Maguire:
 > Darktable is 

Re: [darktable-user] Darktable 3.2, a short review

[Top Rock Photography]

Do not get caught up on the Sharpen module. I remember reading an article
which claimed that ALL digital images NEED sharpening, and justified it by
claiming that ALL digital cameras do unsharpening with the OLPF, a.k.a., AA
filter. This is not true. My Pentax, (and every Pentax since the K-5 IIs,
and several other manufacturers since the K-5 IIs), no longer put an OLPF
on sensors with more than 16 Mpx.

The truth which Pentax realised is that there is no point to make something
unsharp, just to try and sharpen it again with an unsharp mask. One gets
more detail by simply never unsharpening it in the first place; no OLPF.
Then why was it put there in the first place??? To combat moiré. Then why
did Pentax get rid of it? Because on high Mpx sensors, moiré is less of a
problem, and there are other ways to combat moiré than blurring an image,
(and if one needed to, they have a simulated AA filter with two strengths
options).

Fact is, that unless one has an OLPF in their camera, one probably does not
need an unsharp mask, except for what it was invented. Back in the emulsion
days, an unsharp mask was not a normal part of the workflow; it was a
creative tool for a creative effect. (It also took advantage of “depletion
zones” in emulsions, to bring about the effect. CMOS/CCD sensors do not
have these depletion zones).

But, if one insists on using the Sharpen module, whenever I used it, (on
the pre-3.2.1 releases), was to not use the default method, but the
other method, and got better results. (I just opened up Dt to look at what
the two methods were called, and realised that Dt ver 3.2.1 has only one
method to do sharpening, or at least my build only has one method. Did not
realise that until now, as I rarely use it).

Furthermore, if one will be scaling down the image to lower resolution,
then sharpening is not only unnecessary, but whatever sharpening is done on
the high Mpx original, will probably get lost, anyway, (depends on how much
one re-sizes down).

Regarding highlight/shadow recovery, no real image processor can recover
what was never there. If the sensor had hit saturation, the highlight
detail is forever lost. If the light level was very low, then shot noise
overwhelms the details, which can never be truly brought back. Some image
processors use computer learning/AI to create what was never there in the
first place, and sometimes, just sometimes, the results look acceptable.
Usually, not natural.

In a video where Aurelein was demonstrating how to do professional edits
with time constraints, someone submitted an awful image with a grossly
under-exposed subject, with a heavily clipped sky, (sun behind clouds). One
person had asked, when Aurelein was done, why the sun was not yellow. Well,
the sun is NOT yellow, so it ought not be. However, some other programs,
when they reconstruct such images, make the bright area quite yellow.

This is because, if one had a bright sun in a blue sky, as one approaches
the sky, the blue is the first to clip, the red is the last. As the AI is
trying to figure out what was supposed to be there, it concludes that what
was there was obviously mostly blue, and least red, reproducing a mostly
blue+green area, —the sensor is mostly green,— making the sun yellow. This
fading into yellow may possibly look better than fading to a big white
blob, but nevertheless is unnatural. This is what some are used to seeing
when they “reconstruct/recover” the highlights.

Similarly for shadows, in that, what the AI thinks is there, may look
better than what was actually there, but is nevertheless, unnatural.

What one may think is a “better job,” may just be what one is used to
getting from badly coded AI algorithms.

Sincerely,

Karim Hosein
Top Rock Photography
754.999.1652



On Tue, 1 Sep 2020 at 04:39, Kneops  wrote:

> DT is great :), the only two things that currently hold me back is that
> I still think LR overall does a better job in highlight / shadow
> recovery and detail/sharpness. I just played with an image of wooden
> beach poles and LR gives me more detail and edge sharpness, even when
> adding sharpness + local contrast + the highpass filter in DT.
>
> I'm a linux user and have 2 pc's, and there is no doubt in my head that
> I would turn my newest and really fast pc back into an Linux machine too
> if I can get those two things right, because I currently consider that
> investment a waste of money if I only use it for LR. DT in Linux on that
> new pc is so fast I could not even see the thumbnails being created
> during import, they were just there in a blink of an eye :).
>
>
>
> Op 31-08-2020 om 21:28 schreef Matt Maguire:
> > Darktable is great, it has taught me some much about image processing,
> > and I haven't looked back at leaving Lightroom since.
>
> 
> darktable user mailing list
> to unsubscribe send a mail to
> darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
>
>

Re: [darktable-user] Darktable 3.2, a short review

[Guillermo Rozas]

On Tue, Sep 1, 2020, 05:38 Kneops  wrote:

> I just played with an image of wooden
> beach poles and LR gives me more detail and edge sharpness, even when
> adding sharpness + local contrast + the highpass filter in DT.
>

Have you tried some of the "deblur" presets in contrast equalizer? Lately
I've been using only that as sharpening method, maybe with a hint later of
local contrast.

Check also this:
https://discuss.pixls.us/t/up-close-and-personal-with-the-color-balance-module-an-experiment/16636/22

Regards,
Guillermo

>
>


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Re: [darktable-user] Darktable 3.2, a short review

[Kneops]

I think that was me :). I bought a new pc (64Gb, M.2 drive i7 9700, 8 
cores, 2 4Tb fast disks in Raid 1) and DT in Linux Mint was blazing fast 
compared to DT on Windows (same machine when I decided I wanted to use 
Windows + LR for a while).




Op 31-08-2020 om 21:56 schreef Top Rock Photography:
So, yes, the sports- car metaphor goes all the way. If one wants the 
best performance on the track from one's sports car, install a great 
engine, use high-octane fuel, and get an excellent driver. Use a 
multi-core processor, use a quality GPU, run it on Linux, etc. (Yes, 
there is anecdotal evidence, done using the same HW, which suggests that 
Dt runs faster on Linux, over Windows. Not sure if anyone tried Linux vs 
Mac OS, or Mac OS vs Windows, but Mac OS users seem happy).




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Re: [darktable-user] Darktable 3.2, a short review

[Kneops]

DT is great :), the only two things that currently hold me back is that 
I still think LR overall does a better job in highlight / shadow 
recovery and detail/sharpness. I just played with an image of wooden 
beach poles and LR gives me more detail and edge sharpness, even when 
adding sharpness + local contrast + the highpass filter in DT.


I'm a linux user and have 2 pc's, and there is no doubt in my head that 
I would turn my newest and really fast pc back into an Linux machine too 
if I can get those two things right, because I currently consider that 
investment a waste of money if I only use it for LR. DT in Linux on that 
new pc is so fast I could not even see the thumbnails being created 
during import, they were just there in a blink of an eye :).




Op 31-08-2020 om 21:28 schreef Matt Maguire:
Darktable is great, it has taught me some much about image processing, 
and I haven't looked back at leaving Lightroom since.


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Re: [darktable-user] Darktable 3.2, a short review

[Kneops]

Yes Karim, you're right, this is how it works at Adobe :(. My 
subscription ends in october... still thinking about what to do then.




Op 31-08-2020 om 20:29 schreef Top Rock Photography:
Regarding the Adobe subscription, whereas one can pay for the annual 
subscription in a single payment, or monthly, Adobe does NOT offer a 
month-by-month subscription; they only offer annual subscriptions. There 
is a pro-rated penalty for early termination, which is 50% of the 
outstanding balance of the full annual cost.


If you have it for a month, you may as well keep it for the year. Read 
the terms of service. Now the terms of service do mention cancellation 
of the “monthly” plan, however, Adobe does not offer a monthly 
subscription plan for sale. Then why mention it? Because, if one keeps 
their annual plan for the full year, one is THEN converted to a monthly 
subscription.


So do not think that you can just get it for a single month. That will 
cost you about ¤65 on the 1TB Lr subscription, or the 20GB Ps/Lr 
subscription, or about¤130 on the 1TB Ps/LR subscription.


However, one might possibly be able to get it for less than14 days for 
free, IF one is a first-time user, and cancel within the first 14 days!


Sincerely,

Karim Hosein
Top Rock Photography
754.999.1652



On Fri, 21 Aug 2020 at 07:45, Kneops > wrote:


…I don't
think I will ever need Prophoto though, but in case I do I can always… 


*subcribe to LR for one month ;).*


 
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Re: [darktable-user] Darktable 3.2, a short review

[Top Rock Photography]

Dt uses multi-threading, multi-core, & GPU acceleration. Adobe Lr (and Ps)
does not. If you watch YouTube tutorials on buying a computer for image
editing, they will almost all tell you to get the most powerful CPU,
regardless of how few cores it has, (e.g., a two-core i9 vs an eight-core
i3, or a 12-core Ryzen5), ignore GPU, and get at least 8GB of RAM, no more
than 16GB, (because then you have diminishing returns, with negligible
gains), and spend the rest of the money on fast storage.

That advice is based entirely on using Lr/Ps. With such a setup, it may
actually be possible that Lr outperforms Dt. I am not certain of that. But
get a less powerful CPU with 8 to 12 cores, (16 to 24 threads), & a
powerful GPU, and Dt will run circles around Lr.

As for fast storage, that has to do with the dismal performance of Lr on
importing images. I have heard pros talk about waiting overnight for Lr to
import 1,000+ images from one shoot, on spinning rust. (Who shoots 1,000
images in one day)? Using SATA SSD or even NvMe m.2 SSD speeds up Lr
imports to some extent. (really, only the writing to the drive and to the
database).

In any case, on my ten year old system, (AMD Phenom II X6, with six cores &
six threads), with a four-HDD, RAID5 storage, (a GTX 760 GPU & 32 GB of
1600MHz DDR3 RAM), I recently uninstalled DT 3.0, and in doing so,
accidentally deleted my database. I re-installed Dt 3.2.1 (I had compiled
from source), and had to re-import my images, (tens of thousands). It took
about an hour. (Granted, my side-car files were already there, so they did
not have to be written, but they all had to be read in, again, to sync with
the database). Typically, after a shoot, (maybe 300-500 images, at
worst-case), my import takes less than five minutes, if that long.

So, yes, the sports- car metaphor goes all the way. If one wants the best
performance on the track from one's sports car, install a great engine, use
high-octane fuel, and get an excellent driver. Use a multi-core processor,
use a quality GPU, run it on Linux, etc. (Yes, there is anecdotal evidence,
done using the same HW, which suggests that Dt runs faster on Linux, over
Windows. Not sure if anyone tried Linux vs Mac OS, or Mac OS vs Windows,
but Mac OS users seem happy).

Sincerely,

Karim Hosein
Top Rock Photography
754.999.1652



On Tue, 25 Aug 2020 at 04:10,  wrote:

> Terry & all readers,
>
>
>
> as a beginner this thread is very good to keep me motivated. I’ll continue
> to enthusiastically use darktable to gradually acquire the skills of a
> ‘sports car driver’.
>
>
>
> Is the comparison with the sports car also correct when it comes to the
> engine, ie the computer? I think so, but I only have experience with an
> aged version of Lightroom (5.7) on Windows. LR gave acceptable response
> with my 16 MP raw files on a 6 years old Intel dual core laptop with 8 GB
> of memory (no discrete GPU) under Windows. Use of darktable was a pain on
> that laptop. Now on my recent laptop LR (5.7) response is flashy while dt
> response is acceptable.
>
>
>
> Would anyone who uses both programs, in up-to-date versions, on the same
> computer under Windows or MacOS, comment on that?
>
>
>
> The question is somewhat important as I often interact with fellow photo
> art students at the evening school. (I hate to say this here, but they are
> mainly Mac, some on Windows, but never on Linux.)
>
>
>
> Marc.
>
>
>
> *Van:* Terry Pinfold 
> *Verzonden:* dinsdag 25 augustus 2020 0:24
> *Aan:* Kneops 
> *CC:* darktable forum 
> *Onderwerp:* Re: [darktable-user] Darktable 3.2, a short review
>
>
>
> It is really worth investing the time in learning DT. As an editing
> program it leaves LR for dead. Yes Adobe has made a very easy to use
> product. Rather than complicated modules just a few sliders and you have a
> good image. LR is like an automatic car. DT is a high performance sports
> car. Depends what you are happy to settle for. I have LR so my preference
> is not based on what I am willing to pay for, but which program is more
> capable. For me, Darktables drawn paths to localise adjustments leaves the
> adjustment brush in LR looking a little sad.
>
>
>
> On Mon, 24 Aug 2020 at 17:08, Kneops  wrote:
>
> Hi Michael. I agree ofcourse with what you say, but 'After a month'...
> is exactly what I mean. If it takes a month, something is not right. I
> never used LR, but opening it and - like I said - I could edit 99% of my
> images the way I want within 5 minutes. I even don't use Gimp anymore,
> unless my sensor had become too dirty ;).
>
>
>
> Op 22-08-2020 om 22:04 schreef Mikael Ståldal:
> > The filmic module can be a bit intimidating and unfamiliar if you are
> > used to Lightroom. But if you just spend a few hours watching videos and
> > 

Re: [darktable-user] Darktable 3.2, a short review

[Matt Maguire]

The other thing that cheesed me off about Adobe is that they will
automatically renew that annual subscription, and there is no way to opt
out of this automatic renewal. You need to wait until the month that your
current subscription expires, then cancel it manually, and if you forget
you will be up for another year's fees. This annoyed me so much, and after
watching JCristina's "Cutting the Cord with Adobe" series on Youtube, I
moved over the darktable, cancelled the subscription mid-contract and payed
out the early termination fee. At least it gave them less of my money than
if I'd let the contract run to term. Darktable is great, it has taught me
some much about image processing, and I haven't looked back at leaving
Lightroom since.

On Tue, 1 Sep 2020 at 04:30, Top Rock Photography <
ka...@toprockphotography.com> wrote:

> Regarding the Adobe subscription, whereas one can pay for the annual
> subscription in a single payment, or monthly, Adobe does NOT offer a
> month-by-month subscription; they only offer annual subscriptions. There is
> a pro-rated penalty for early termination, which is 50% of the outstanding
> balance of the full annual cost.
>
> If you have it for a month, you may as well keep it for the year. Read the
> terms of service. Now the terms of service do mention cancellation of the
> “monthly” plan, however, Adobe does not offer a monthly subscription plan
> for sale. Then why mention it? Because, if one keeps their annual plan for
> the full year, one is THEN converted to a monthly subscription.
>
> So do not think that you can just get it for a single month. That will
> cost you about ¤65 on the 1TB Lr subscription, or the 20GB Ps/Lr
> subscription, or about¤130 on the 1TB Ps/LR subscription.
>
> However, one might possibly be able to get it for less than14 days for
> free, IF one is a first-time user, and cancel within the first 14 days!
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Karim Hosein
> Top Rock Photography
> 754.999.1652
>
>
>
> On Fri, 21 Aug 2020 at 07:45, Kneops  wrote:
>
>> …I don't
>> think I will ever need Prophoto though, but in case I do I can always…
>
>  *subcribe to LR for one month ;).*
>>
>>
> 
> darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to
> darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
>


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Re: [darktable-user] Darktable 3.2, a short review

[Top Rock Photography]

Regarding the Adobe subscription, whereas one can pay for the annual
subscription in a single payment, or monthly, Adobe does NOT offer a
month-by-month subscription; they only offer annual subscriptions. There is
a pro-rated penalty for early termination, which is 50% of the outstanding
balance of the full annual cost.

If you have it for a month, you may as well keep it for the year. Read the
terms of service. Now the terms of service do mention cancellation of the
“monthly” plan, however, Adobe does not offer a monthly subscription plan
for sale. Then why mention it? Because, if one keeps their annual plan for
the full year, one is THEN converted to a monthly subscription.

So do not think that you can just get it for a single month. That will cost
you about ¤65 on the 1TB Lr subscription, or the 20GB Ps/Lr subscription,
or about¤130 on the 1TB Ps/LR subscription.

However, one might possibly be able to get it for less than14 days for
free, IF one is a first-time user, and cancel within the first 14 days!

Sincerely,

Karim Hosein
Top Rock Photography
754.999.1652



On Fri, 21 Aug 2020 at 07:45, Kneops  wrote:

> …I don't
> think I will ever need Prophoto though, but in case I do I can always…

 *subcribe to LR for one month ;).*
>
>


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Re: [darktable-user] Darktable 3.2, a short review

[Kneops]

No not yet, I just tried one of the images posted there but I don't 
understand how it works. The help pages of that website are not loading. 
I have edited one of those images but don't understand how I can upload 
my version.





Have you tried posting some problematic images as PlayRaw on
discuss.pixls.us? (Note the licence requirements.)
https://discuss.pixls.us/c/processing/playraw/30

Kofa

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Re: [darktable-user] Darktable 3.2, a short review

[Marc Cabuy]

Indeed helpful to post a problematic picture on 
https://discuss.pixls.us/c/processing/playraw/30
I got my sample picture with a clipping red highlight back recovered through 
the tone equalizer module.
Marc.

> Op 29 aug. 2020 om 17:05 heeft KOVÁCS István  het 
> volgende geschreven:
> 
>> On Sat, 29 Aug 2020 at 16:46, Kneops  wrote:
>> 
>> what is your
>> opininion on highlight and shadow recovery in DT versus LR? My
>> experience is that LR gives better and more natural results so far. I
>> used masks a lot in DT, but at a certain point highlight recovery just
>> makes the area look more grey, not a recovery at all.
> 
> Have you tried posting some problematic images as PlayRaw on
> discuss.pixls.us? (Note the licence requirements.)
> https://discuss.pixls.us/c/processing/playraw/30
> 
> Kofa
> 
> darktable user mailing list
> to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
> 

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Re: [darktable-user] Darktable 3.2, a short review

[KOVÁCS István]

On Sat, 29 Aug 2020 at 16:46, Kneops  wrote:
>
> what is your
> opininion on highlight and shadow recovery in DT versus LR? My
> experience is that LR gives better and more natural results so far. I
> used masks a lot in DT, but at a certain point highlight recovery just
> makes the area look more grey, not a recovery at all.

Have you tried posting some problematic images as PlayRaw on
discuss.pixls.us? (Note the licence requirements.)
https://discuss.pixls.us/c/processing/playraw/30

Kofa

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Re: [darktable-user] Darktable 3.2, a short review

[Kneops]

Hi Terry, thanks for this view on DT and LR. I agree on everything I 
think, although I'm a Linux user who had to buy a Windows pc to use LR 
for the first time. Since you use both extensively, what is your 
opininion on highlight and shadow recovery in DT versus LR? My 
experience is that LR gives better and more natural results so far. I 
used masks a lot in DT, but at a certain point highlight recovery just 
makes the area look more grey, not a recovery at all.





Op 26-08-2020 om 01:52 schreef Terry Pinfold:

Hi Marc,
       one of my jobs is teaching photography and imaging classes for 
Adult Education classes. I have done this since 2002. Because of this I 
need to have Photoshop and LR loaded on my computers for teaching. I 
also have creative cloud access to every Adobe program because of my 
daytime job at a University. Well over ten years years ago I stopped 
using Photoshop for anything but teaching purposes. I exclusively use 
and recommend GIMP in preference to Photoshop. I have a 
perpetual licence of Adobe CS6 Master suite which includes Photoshop and 
all the programs needed by a graphic artist. If I was a graphic artist 
or web designer I might use Photoshop as part of the suite of programs 
to do my job. Photoshop after all is a graphic artist's tool that 
photographers just happen to have a use for. Since I am a photographer I 
find GIMP is suitable to my needs as a photographer and I don't 
need a suite of programs. I love the ease that I can open images as 
layers, the way I can create my own keyboard shortcuts to speed up my 
workflow with GIMP. I also love that there is no economic barrier to my 
students when I recommend GIMP over Photoshop. I feel there is some snob 
appeal in people picking PS over GIMP. I have often  heard the comment 
"you get what you pay for". GIMP was used to make films like Harry 
Potter and Stewart Little so I don't see them using a B-grade program.


As for LR, I tried version 1, 2, 3, 4, and  5 as trial versions when 
they were released. Just didn't like them. Then LR6 was released and I 
am not sure if I changed or LR changed, but I fell in love with LR. I am 
never going to knock LR. Adobe have built PS for Graphic artists but 
with LR they designed a program for photographers and did a great job. I 
would never try and talk anyone out of using LR. It is well designed, 
relatively simple to use and gives good results fast. However, I came 
across some very challenging images that LR was incapable of processing 
to the required standard so the prints could be exhibited and sold 
through an art gallery. I invested a lot of time on these images for the 
person because I love challenges. During this process I ended up 
exploring both RawTherapee and Darktable. RawTherapee is a great program 
at tackling noise issues. This starts with selecting specific demosaic 
algorithms and ends with removing salt and pepper noise and hot pixels. 
However, Rawtherapee  is limited to global adjustments for the whole 
image. On the other hand, Darktable has masking options to localise 
adjustments.


It is these masking options that new users of DT should focus on first. 
When you get used to working with various drawn and parametric masks you 
will fall in love with DT and see its real potential. Coming from LR I 
first reached for the brush to draw the mask. It is not as user friendly 
as LR's brush and will leave you disappointed.  I suspect many people 
give up on DT because of this. But, then I stumbled on the drawn mask 
using the path option. This allowed me to draw along the skyline of 
mountain ranges, or the bright side or shadow side of a person's face, 
or select a region in a streetscape and then I could apply an exposure 
correct. The result initially can look terrible but then I can reshape 
and feather the path until I get a smooth and invisible transition. The 
results left for dead what I could do with LR's adjustment brush. I just 
needed to learn to use this one new tool and then I became a DT devotee.


My advice to new users is learn to use the drawn mask with the path tool 
(read the manual) and use this tool to do simple exposure corrections on 
your images. That is the first lesson to learn in DT. Later worry about 
batch processing, styles, Filmic and all the other modules.


As for the question of speed. LR works quicker on images because it is 
only working on a preview of the image. DT is slower because it does 
more intensive processing of the images. But I believe this is being 
addressed to some degree in the newer versions. Maybe one of the 
developers could comment on this. I have a windows computer and I read 
that it works fastest on Linux computers.


BTW, if a person has a perpetual licence for Photoshop or LR such as 
your LR5 and they have a Windows computer all is fine. But if they are a 
Mac user and they upgrade to Catalina OS the perpetual LR and PS will 
no longer be compatible. They will be forced into a subscription for the 

RE: [darktable-user] Darktable 3.2, a short review

[marc.cabuy]

Terry, Jack,

Thank you for your feedback. 

Terry, 
I was really waiting your reply since I suspected you had good experience with 
LR and dt. This confirms also that dt can use a powerful computer if one 
doesn’t want to feel refrained in his creativity. I am indeed experimenting 
masks, including a parametric mask inside a drawn mask. And that often gives 
remarkable results. I most often use it with the basic adjustments module.

Jack,
I feel also that shadow recovery in LR is easier.  But have you tried dt’s tone 
equaliser with its included mask tuning (there is a good video by Bruce 
Williams) ? On a few of my landscape pictures it gave me great results. However 
I found it not always useable and then I use masks.

Marc.

-Oorspronkelijk bericht-
Van: Kneops  
Verzonden: woensdag 26 augustus 2020 10:37
Aan: Terry Pinfold ; Marc Cabuy 
CC: darktable forum 
Onderwerp: Re: [darktable-user] Darktable 3.2, a short review

Hi Terry, thanks for this view on DT and LR. I agree on everything I think, 
although I'm a Linux user who had to buy a Windows pc to use LR for the first 
time. Since you use both extensively, what is your opininion on highlight and 
shadow recovery in DT versus LR? My experience is that LR gives better and more 
natural results so far. I used masks a lot in DT, but at a certain point 
highlight recovery just makes the area look more grey, not a recovery at all.




Op 26-08-2020 om 01:52 schreef Terry Pinfold:
> Hi Marc,
>one of my jobs is teaching photography and imaging classes for 
> Adult Education classes. I have done this since 2002. Because of this 
> I need to have Photoshop and LR loaded on my computers for teaching. I 
> also have creative cloud access to every Adobe program because of my 
> daytime job at a University. Well over ten years years ago I stopped 
> using Photoshop for anything but teaching purposes. I exclusively use 
> and recommend GIMP in preference to Photoshop. I have a perpetual 
> licence of Adobe CS6 Master suite which includes Photoshop and all the 
> programs needed by a graphic artist. If I was a graphic artist or web 
> designer I might use Photoshop as part of the suite of programs to do 
> my job. Photoshop after all is a graphic artist's tool that 
> photographers just happen to have a use for. Since I am a photographer 
> I find GIMP is suitable to my needs as a photographer and I don't need 
> a suite of programs. I love the ease that I can open images as layers, 
> the way I can create my own keyboard shortcuts to speed up my workflow 
> with GIMP. I also love that there is no economic barrier to my 
> students when I recommend GIMP over Photoshop. I feel there is some 
> snob appeal in people picking PS over GIMP. I have often  heard the 
> comment "you get what you pay for". GIMP was used to make films like 
> Harry Potter and Stewart Little so I don't see them using a B-grade program.
> 
> As for LR, I tried version 1, 2, 3, 4, and  5 as trial versions when 
> they were released. Just didn't like them. Then LR6 was released and I 
> am not sure if I changed or LR changed, but I fell in love with LR. I 
> am never going to knock LR. Adobe have built PS for Graphic artists 
> but with LR they designed a program for photographers and did a great 
> job. I would never try and talk anyone out of using LR. It is well 
> designed, relatively simple to use and gives good results fast. 
> However, I came across some very challenging images that LR was 
> incapable of processing to the required standard so the prints could 
> be exhibited and sold through an art gallery. I invested a lot of time 
> on these images for the person because I love challenges. During this 
> process I ended up exploring both RawTherapee and Darktable. 
> RawTherapee is a great program at tackling noise issues. This starts 
> with selecting specific demosaic algorithms and ends with removing salt and 
> pepper noise and hot pixels.
> However, Rawtherapee  is limited to global adjustments for the whole 
> image. On the other hand, Darktable has masking options to localise 
> adjustments.
> 
> It is these masking options that new users of DT should focus on first. 
> When you get used to working with various drawn and parametric masks 
> you will fall in love with DT and see its real potential. Coming from 
> LR I first reached for the brush to draw the mask. It is not as user 
> friendly as LR's brush and will leave you disappointed.  I suspect 
> many people give up on DT because of this. But, then I stumbled on the 
> drawn mask using the path option. This allowed me to draw along the 
> skyline of mountain ranges, or the bright side or shadow side of a 
> person's face, or select a region in a streetscape and then I could 
> apply an exposure correct. The result initially can look terrible

Re: [darktable-user] Darktable 3.2, a short review

[KOVÁCS István]

Hi,

[sorry, meant to send this to the list, but at first replied to Kneops
by accident]

On Sat, 29 Aug 2020 at 12:11, Kneops  wrote:

> But when I went to for instance horse jumping competition, a city trip
> or whatever, with lots of different lighting conditions, and I have 100
> or 200 images to process for a client, I want to do it easy and fast and
> good.

Have you seen this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vP5m1YmSRw8

Kofa

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Re: [darktable-user] Darktable 3.2, a short review

[Kneops]

Hi Marc,

You know, I don't mind fiddling around with many modules to get the best 
possible image , if I have the time and it is only one or two images. 
But when I went to for instance horse jumping competition, a city trip 
or whatever, with lots of different lighting conditions, and I have 100 
or 200 images to process for a client, I want to do it easy and fast and 
good. With DT many times I have the feeling I have to start all over 
with every image, even when I have several presets saved. That's the 
reason I mainly use LR at this moment, while learning to work faster 
with DT. Until now I have been able to use LR for almost every image, 
although sometimes I open an image in DT because local contrast is nicer.





Op 26-08-2020 om 17:09 schreef marc.ca...@gmail.com:

Terry, Jack,

Thank you for your feedback.

Terry,
I was really waiting your reply since I suspected you had good experience with 
LR and dt. This confirms also that dt can use a powerful computer if one 
doesn’t want to feel refrained in his creativity. I am indeed experimenting 
masks, including a parametric mask inside a drawn mask. And that often gives 
remarkable results. I most often use it with the basic adjustments module.

Jack,
I feel also that shadow recovery in LR is easier.  But have you tried dt’s tone 
equaliser with its included mask tuning (there is a good video by Bruce 
Williams) ? On a few of my landscape pictures it gave me great results. However 
I found it not always useable and then I use masks.

Marc.


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Re: [darktable-user] Darktable 3.2, a short review

[Jesus Arocho]

I have used an HP Pavilion g series for many years and have not had issues
with it.  However, I mostly work on photos one at a time, seldom engaging
in automated changes through a large number of them.

On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 4:11 AM  wrote:

> Terry & all readers,
>
>
>
> as a beginner this thread is very good to keep me motivated. I’ll continue
> to enthusiastically use darktable to gradually acquire the skills of a
> ‘sports car driver’.
>
>
>
> Is the comparison with the sports car also correct when it comes to the
> engine, ie the computer? I think so, but I only have experience with an
> aged version of Lightroom (5.7) on Windows. LR gave acceptable response
> with my 16 MP raw files on a 6 years old Intel dual core laptop with 8 GB
> of memory (no discrete GPU) under Windows. Use of darktable was a pain on
> that laptop. Now on my recent laptop LR (5.7) response is flashy while dt
> response is acceptable.
>
>
>
> Would anyone who uses both programs, in up-to-date versions, on the same
> computer under Windows or MacOS, comment on that?
>
>
>
> The question is somewhat important as I often interact with fellow photo
> art students at the evening school. (I hate to say this here, but they are
> mainly Mac, some on Windows, but never on Linux.)
>
>
>
> Marc.
>
>
>
> *Van:* Terry Pinfold 
> *Verzonden:* dinsdag 25 augustus 2020 0:24
> *Aan:* Kneops 
> *CC:* darktable forum 
> *Onderwerp:* Re: [darktable-user] Darktable 3.2, a short review
>
>
>
> It is really worth investing the time in learning DT. As an editing
> program it leaves LR for dead. Yes Adobe has made a very easy to use
> product. Rather than complicated modules just a few sliders and you have a
> good image. LR is like an automatic car. DT is a high performance sports
> car. Depends what you are happy to settle for. I have LR so my preference
> is not based on what I am willing to pay for, but which program is more
> capable. For me, Darktables drawn paths to localise adjustments leaves the
> adjustment brush in LR looking a little sad.
>
>
>
> On Mon, 24 Aug 2020 at 17:08, Kneops  wrote:
>
> Hi Michael. I agree ofcourse with what you say, but 'After a month'...
> is exactly what I mean. If it takes a month, something is not right. I
> never used LR, but opening it and - like I said - I could edit 99% of my
> images the way I want within 5 minutes. I even don't use Gimp anymore,
> unless my sensor had become too dirty ;).
>
>
>
> Op 22-08-2020 om 22:04 schreef Mikael Ståldal:
> > The filmic module can be a bit intimidating and unfamiliar if you are
> > used to Lightroom. But if you just spend a few hours watching videos and
> > reading instructions, and practice on a dozen of your own images, you
> > can become effective faster than you think. And it just got easier with
> > Darktable 3.2!
> >
> > After about a month of using Darktable, I feel that I can do about the
> > same as I did in Lightroom. And I have the option to spend some
> > additional learning effort and be able to do a lot more that was not
> > possible with Lightroom.
> >
> > So I agree with the sentiment: great and impressive work by the
> > development team!
> >
> >
> >
> > On 2020-08-20 09:38, Kneops wrote:
> >> I agree, it is a marvellous piece of work, unbelievable really and I
> >> love it but not use it as much as I would like to. And I would never
> >> recommend it to friends :(. Even for me as a freelance photographer
> >> (20+ years of experience) it feels like it is made for techies, not
> >> (yet) intuitive enough. For example the filmic module is so full of
> >> options and sliders and words that are not obvious/comprehensible for
> >> most people and even I have much difficulty in understanding what they
> >> do. I just start using the sliders and always slide in the wrong
> >> direction at first ;). My feeling says that when I see a slider that
> >> says 'White relative exposure' I want to drag it to the right to get
> >> more white tones, but the opposite happens.
> >>
> >> I'm not a fan of Windows, Adobe and LR, but I still use the latter
> >> because it is intuitive. With a few sliders I get almost exactly what
> >> I want with 99% of my images and very fast (even though LR lacks speed
> >> and I don't like the catalogs/collections system of it). That is why
> >> most people still use LR I think. It has sliders that are called White
> >> Tones, Black Tones, Highlights, Texture, all very clear in what they
> >> do and how to use them. If DT wants to drag a lot of people to its
> >

RE: [darktable-user] Darktable 3.2, a short review

[marc.cabuy]

Terry & all readers,

 

as a beginner this thread is very good to keep me motivated. I’ll continue to 
enthusiastically use darktable to gradually acquire the skills of a ‘sports car 
driver’.

 

Is the comparison with the sports car also correct when it comes to the engine, 
ie the computer? I think so, but I only have experience with an aged version of 
Lightroom (5.7) on Windows. LR gave acceptable response with my 16 MP raw files 
on a 6 years old Intel dual core laptop with 8 GB of memory (no discrete GPU) 
under Windows. Use of darktable was a pain on that laptop. Now on my recent 
laptop LR (5.7) response is flashy while dt response is acceptable.

 

Would anyone who uses both programs, in up-to-date versions, on the same 
computer under Windows or MacOS, comment on that? 

 

The question is somewhat important as I often interact with fellow photo art 
students at the evening school. (I hate to say this here, but they are mainly 
Mac, some on Windows, but never on Linux.)

 

Marc.

 

Van: Terry Pinfold  
Verzonden: dinsdag 25 augustus 2020 0:24
Aan: Kneops 
CC: darktable forum 
Onderwerp: Re: [darktable-user] Darktable 3.2, a short review

 

It is really worth investing the time in learning DT. As an editing program it 
leaves LR for dead. Yes Adobe has made a very easy to use product. Rather than 
complicated modules just a few sliders and you have a good image. LR is like an 
automatic car. DT is a high performance sports car. Depends what you are happy 
to settle for. I have LR so my preference is not based on what I am willing to 
pay for, but which program is more capable. For me, Darktables drawn paths to 
localise adjustments leaves the adjustment brush in LR looking a little sad.   

 

On Mon, 24 Aug 2020 at 17:08, Kneops mailto:kne...@gmail.com> > wrote:

Hi Michael. I agree ofcourse with what you say, but 'After a month'... 
is exactly what I mean. If it takes a month, something is not right. I 
never used LR, but opening it and - like I said - I could edit 99% of my 
images the way I want within 5 minutes. I even don't use Gimp anymore, 
unless my sensor had become too dirty ;).



Op 22-08-2020 om 22:04 schreef Mikael Ståldal:
> The filmic module can be a bit intimidating and unfamiliar if you are 
> used to Lightroom. But if you just spend a few hours watching videos and 
> reading instructions, and practice on a dozen of your own images, you 
> can become effective faster than you think. And it just got easier with 
> Darktable 3.2!
> 
> After about a month of using Darktable, I feel that I can do about the 
> same as I did in Lightroom. And I have the option to spend some 
> additional learning effort and be able to do a lot more that was not 
> possible with Lightroom.
> 
> So I agree with the sentiment: great and impressive work by the 
> development team!
> 
> 
> 
> On 2020-08-20 09:38, Kneops wrote:
>> I agree, it is a marvellous piece of work, unbelievable really and I 
>> love it but not use it as much as I would like to. And I would never 
>> recommend it to friends :(. Even for me as a freelance photographer 
>> (20+ years of experience) it feels like it is made for techies, not 
>> (yet) intuitive enough. For example the filmic module is so full of 
>> options and sliders and words that are not obvious/comprehensible for 
>> most people and even I have much difficulty in understanding what they 
>> do. I just start using the sliders and always slide in the wrong 
>> direction at first ;). My feeling says that when I see a slider that 
>> says 'White relative exposure' I want to drag it to the right to get 
>> more white tones, but the opposite happens.
>>
>> I'm not a fan of Windows, Adobe and LR, but I still use the latter 
>> because it is intuitive. With a few sliders I get almost exactly what 
>> I want with 99% of my images and very fast (even though LR lacks speed 
>> and I don't like the catalogs/collections system of it). That is why 
>> most people still use LR I think. It has sliders that are called White 
>> Tones, Black Tones, Highlights, Texture, all very clear in what they 
>> do and how to use them. If DT wants to drag a lot of people to its 
>> open source alternative, imho it needs to be simplified. LR lacks 
>> power and options for more adjustments, but what it does it does quite 
>> nicely. Highlight and shadow recovery always looks very natural, 
>> whereas in DT highlight recovery is not good enough and shadow 
>> recovery can look very harsh and artificial.
>>
>> But... I'm really a fan of DT and hope I can use it on a daily basis 
>> and convert my newest pc back into a Linux machine, because LR is the 
>> only reason I bought it (my other Linux computer is for webdesign 
>> work). Could have been Capture One or

Re: [darktable-user] Darktable 3.2, a short review

[Girts Gailans]

For what it's worth ...

I used to be an enthusiastic LR user. In fact, I used LR when it was a free 
program developed by a small band of enthusiasts. I can't even remember if it 
was called LR before Adobe bought it, but the point is that I'm a very long 
time user of LR in all its incarnations. Loved it. Then I switched to Linux and 
had to work with a box to accomodate Windows and LR. That became a hassle, so I 
looked for an alternative and guess what came on the scene. Tentatively, I 
downloaded DT and was amazed to find that it happily opened my LR files and 
more often than not they were as I had edited them. Not always, but you always 
get interesting results from translating a book, say, from one language to 
another. So that sometimes gave me an unexpected alternative edit to consider. 
Sometimes better, sometimes not.

I confess that I decided the best way to learn is to play. Just use it and see 
what happens. You can't break it, but you'll find out quickly what you can and 
can't do. Then if all else fails, read the instructions. So that's how I 
learned to use DT in a very short time. There's still a huge amount it can do 
that I don't use, and I'll work that out when I need it. In other words, for me 
DT is highly intuitive and easy to use, perhaps because I don't treat it as if 
it's LR and then feel disappointed when it doesn't behave like LR.

I dropped LR some 6 years ago, maybe more. And I'm a professional photographer, 
recently retired now, specialising in architectural work where precise 
rendering is important, and images for book jackets where creativity and 
atmosphere are important. DT copes with both these extremes far better than LR 
ever did.

So my heartfelt thanks and admiration to the amazing work and dedication of the 
individuals who create this wonderful program simply because they want to.

Well done guys!

Girts Gailans

2minty studio

 Original Message 
On 24 Aug 2020, 21:14, Jesus Arocho wrote:

> Agreed. I have been using DT for several years. Last year I purchased LR for 
> several months and was lost; dropped the sub and continued on DT. I compile 
> from the latest dev branch on ubuntu and on a small Windows machine for 
> travel (laptop) is heavier.
>
> On Mon, Aug 24, 2020 at 12:55 PM Pascal Obry  wrote:
>
>> Le lundi 24 août 2020 à 11:54 -0400, Jason Polak a écrit :
>>> I wonder though if some of that is not the psychology of used first
>>> vs. second, though.
>>
>> I think that's exactly that indeed. People don't want to change their
>> mind and learn new things.
>>
>> On my side, I've been a Lr user for 5 years+ when I decided to switch
>> to dt. I did develop only one picture with it for each batch developed
>> with Lr. I was far more productive with Lr, found dt more difficult to
>> grasp and I had too many pictures to develop to switch yet. But I had
>> the strong motivation to leave Adobe product for good. After many
>> months working this way I felt more confortable.
>>
>> Now what about my current edits in Lr? Okay, I decided to step in and
>> do the Lr conversion module which is integrated in dt. All my tags,
>> color labels, stars and some devs can be converted with it.
>>
>> Almost one year, yes one year, after trying dt for the first time I
>> decided to fully switch to it.
>>
>> So people trying it, not reading manuals, not looking at the excellent
>> Youtube tutorials around and wanting to prepare an exhibition or nice
>> gallery won't switch at all. This has been said again and again, dt is
>> not Lr and you cannot just switch to it without reviewing your full
>> workflow and investing quite some time on it.
>>
>> My 2 cents!
>>
>> --
>> Pascal Obry / Magny Les Hameaux (78)
>>
>> The best way to travel is by means of imagination
>>
>> http://www.obry.net
>>
>> gpg --keyserver keys.gnupg.net --recv-key F949BD3B
>>
>> 
>> darktable user mailing list
>> to unsubscribe send a mail to 
>> [darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org](mailto:darktable-user%2bunsubscr...@lists.darktable.org)
>
>  
> darktable user mailing list to unsubscribe send a mail to 
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Re: [darktable-user] Darktable 3.2, a short review

[Terry Pinfold]

It is really worth investing the time in learning DT. As an editing program
it leaves LR for dead. Yes Adobe has made a very easy to use product.
Rather than complicated modules just a few sliders and you have a good
image. LR is like an automatic car. DT is a high performance sports car.
Depends what you are happy to settle for. I have LR so my preference is not
based on what I am willing to pay for, but which program is more capable.
For me, Darktables drawn paths to localise adjustments leaves the
adjustment brush in LR looking a little sad.

On Mon, 24 Aug 2020 at 17:08, Kneops  wrote:

> Hi Michael. I agree ofcourse with what you say, but 'After a month'...
> is exactly what I mean. If it takes a month, something is not right. I
> never used LR, but opening it and - like I said - I could edit 99% of my
> images the way I want within 5 minutes. I even don't use Gimp anymore,
> unless my sensor had become too dirty ;).
>
>
>
> Op 22-08-2020 om 22:04 schreef Mikael Ståldal:
> > The filmic module can be a bit intimidating and unfamiliar if you are
> > used to Lightroom. But if you just spend a few hours watching videos and
> > reading instructions, and practice on a dozen of your own images, you
> > can become effective faster than you think. And it just got easier with
> > Darktable 3.2!
> >
> > After about a month of using Darktable, I feel that I can do about the
> > same as I did in Lightroom. And I have the option to spend some
> > additional learning effort and be able to do a lot more that was not
> > possible with Lightroom.
> >
> > So I agree with the sentiment: great and impressive work by the
> > development team!
> >
> >
> >
> > On 2020-08-20 09:38, Kneops wrote:
> >> I agree, it is a marvellous piece of work, unbelievable really and I
> >> love it but not use it as much as I would like to. And I would never
> >> recommend it to friends :(. Even for me as a freelance photographer
> >> (20+ years of experience) it feels like it is made for techies, not
> >> (yet) intuitive enough. For example the filmic module is so full of
> >> options and sliders and words that are not obvious/comprehensible for
> >> most people and even I have much difficulty in understanding what they
> >> do. I just start using the sliders and always slide in the wrong
> >> direction at first ;). My feeling says that when I see a slider that
> >> says 'White relative exposure' I want to drag it to the right to get
> >> more white tones, but the opposite happens.
> >>
> >> I'm not a fan of Windows, Adobe and LR, but I still use the latter
> >> because it is intuitive. With a few sliders I get almost exactly what
> >> I want with 99% of my images and very fast (even though LR lacks speed
> >> and I don't like the catalogs/collections system of it). That is why
> >> most people still use LR I think. It has sliders that are called White
> >> Tones, Black Tones, Highlights, Texture, all very clear in what they
> >> do and how to use them. If DT wants to drag a lot of people to its
> >> open source alternative, imho it needs to be simplified. LR lacks
> >> power and options for more adjustments, but what it does it does quite
> >> nicely. Highlight and shadow recovery always looks very natural,
> >> whereas in DT highlight recovery is not good enough and shadow
> >> recovery can look very harsh and artificial.
> >>
> >> But... I'm really a fan of DT and hope I can use it on a daily basis
> >> and convert my newest pc back into a Linux machine, because LR is the
> >> only reason I bought it (my other Linux computer is for webdesign
> >> work). Could have been Capture One or one of the other options as well
> >> by the way, what I'm trying to say is not LR specific.
> >>
> >>
> >> So, a lot of love and admiration for DT, but some suggestions for the
> >> future :).
> >>
> >>
> >> Jack
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Op 19-08-2020 om 10:00 schreef Pascal Obry:
> >>>
> >>> Hi Jason,
> >>>
>  Overall impressions: a worthy improvement (thanks, developers!). I am
>  going to adjust to a new workflow with darktable 3.2, but it is not a
>  big adjustment. I think overall darktable has come very far since the
>  early days, and it is hard to believe such a program is free
>  software.
> >>>
> >>> Nice to read such message among all the bug reports. This amazing piece
> >>> of work is maintained by many talented people accros the planet. The
> >>> best we can do to keep our freedom against the big players trying to
> >>> lock us down in their world which ressemble to a golden jail.
> >>>
> >>> Cheers,
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> 
>
> >>
> >> darktable user mailing list
> >> to unsubscribe send a mail to
> >> darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
> >>
> >
> 
>
> >
> > darktable user mailing list
> > to unsubscribe send a mail to
> > darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
> >

Re: [darktable-user] Darktable 3.2, a short review

[Jesus Arocho]

Agreed.  I have been using DT for several years.  Last year I purchased LR
for several months and was lost; dropped the sub and continued on DT.  I
compile from the latest dev branch on ubuntu and on a small Windows machine
for travel (laptop) is heavier.

On Mon, Aug 24, 2020 at 12:55 PM Pascal Obry  wrote:

> Le lundi 24 août 2020 à 11:54 -0400, Jason Polak a écrit :
> > I wonder though if some of that is not the psychology of used first
> > vs. second, though.
>
> I think that's exactly that indeed. People don't want to change their
> mind and learn new things.
>
> On my side, I've been a Lr user for 5 years+ when I decided to switch
> to dt. I did develop only one picture with it for each batch developed
> with Lr. I was far more productive with Lr, found dt more difficult to
> grasp and I had too many pictures to develop to switch yet. But I had
> the strong motivation to leave Adobe product for good. After many
> months working this way I felt more confortable.
>
> Now what about my current edits in Lr? Okay, I decided to step in and
> do the Lr conversion module which is integrated in dt. All my tags,
> color labels, stars and some devs can be converted with it.
>
> Almost one year, yes one year, after trying dt for the first time I
> decided to fully switch to it.
>
> So people trying it, not reading manuals, not looking at the excellent
> Youtube tutorials around and wanting to prepare an exhibition or nice
> gallery won't switch at all. This has been said again and again, dt is
> not Lr and you cannot just switch to it without reviewing your full
> workflow and investing quite some time on it.
>
> My 2 cents!
>
> --
>   Pascal Obry /  Magny Les Hameaux (78)
>
>   The best way to travel is by means of imagination
>
>   http://www.obry.net
>
>   gpg --keyserver keys.gnupg.net --recv-key F949BD3B
>
>
> 
> darktable user mailing list
> to unsubscribe send a mail to
> darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
>
>


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Re: [darktable-user] Darktable 3.2, a short review

[Kneops]

Almost my path in raw software. Started with RT and DT, than found 
Aftershot Pro (= Bibble) which was decent enough but no development 
(indeed Corel fucked up the original software and are deceiving new 
users), than back to DT for about 2 years until I tried LR. Not lost but 
instead remarkably easy to use (only editing). Now I use LR on a Windows 
machine and everything else (including learning DT) on Linux.



Op 24-08-2020 om 20:30 schreef Patrick Shanahan:

I once tried lightroom and was completely lost.  Went back to bibble, but
bibble abandoned it's users for $$$s from Corel who fsck everything and I
changed to dt which presented a workflow quite similar, and have never
looked back.


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Re: [darktable-user] Darktable 3.2, a short review

[Kneops]

True! I'm using LR now for going through my archive and I agree that at 
some point it can get restrictive, but as I said earlier, for 99% of my 
images it works very well and very fast. I don't like the library system 
though, so at some point I will import everything in DT.



Op 24-08-2020 om 19:51 schreef Patrick Shanahan:

However, I also appreciate that because of the additional manual steps
required in darktable, you eventually get to a point where you have more
control and personality that you can put into your images, so after that
initial period of learning (the "month"), trying to use lightroom feels
awfully restrictive.


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Re: [darktable-user] Darktable 3.2, a short review

[Kneops]

A penny worth of thoughts :) More than that.
Yes it could be time, but I just want to add that I'm in no way new to 
editing software and have switched many times.


I started in the nineties with Photoshop, then used many brands of 
software while working in a design company until I switched to Linux in 
2007. Before that I used software from Macromedia (Dreamweaver, Flash, 
Freehand), Adobe (Illustrator, GoLive, Premiere), QuarkExpress, 
Paintshop Pro and after that many different programs that run under 
Linux, including Gimp, Aftershot Pro, Krita. I could almost work with 
them without ever reading a manual, all quite ituitive. Except DT. But I 
will keep on trying (!!!) because I too want to be independent of 
Windows and Adobe. Since most people are very happy with DT I assume it 
must be me.


In general I have always believed that the best 
devices/software/machines are those that don't need a manual to operate 
(except advanced usage perhaps), because the UI is easy and transparent.


My God, this sounds like I don't like DT, but I do! It's love/hate at 
the moment I guess :).





I think that's exactly that indeed. People don't want to change their
mind and learn new things.

On my side, I've been a Lr user for 5 years+ when I decided to switch
to dt. I did develop only one picture with it for each batch developed
with Lr. I was far more productive with Lr, found dt more difficult to
grasp and I had too many pictures to develop to switch yet. But I had
the strong motivation to leave Adobe product for good. After many
months working this way I felt more confortable.

Now what about my current edits in Lr? Okay, I decided to step in and
do the Lr conversion module which is integrated in dt. All my tags,
color labels, stars and some devs can be converted with it.

Almost one year, yes one year, after trying dt for the first time I
decided to fully switch to it.

So people trying it, not reading manuals, not looking at the excellent
Youtube tutorials around and wanting to prepare an exhibition or nice
gallery won't switch at all. This has been said again and again, dt is
not Lr and you cannot just switch to it without reviewing your full
workflow and investing quite some time on it.

My 2 cents!



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Re: [darktable-user] Darktable 3.2, a short review

[Patrick Shanahan]

* Michael  [08-24-20 14:21]:
> On Mon, Aug 24, 2020 at 1:53 PM Patrick Shanahan  wrote:
> >
> > * Jason Polak  [08-24-20 11:56]:
> > > I wonder though if some of that is not the psychology of used first vs.
> > > second, though. Because, I started out with darktable, and only years
> > > later did I try lightroom, and I found doing things in Lightroom
> > > confusing even after half an hour with it. And when I first started out
> > > with darktable, I found it pretty intuitive.
> >
> > have to agree with this.  It has been my experience.  Try rawtherapee if
> > you want to experience another *completely* different work path.
> >
> 
> Is that why we prefer dt?

we as "most of this list's users" I would think.

but many user rt and other software.  

I once tried lightroom and was completely lost.  Went back to bibble, but
bibble abandoned it's users for $$$s from Corel who fsck everything and I
changed to dt which presented a workflow quite similar, and have never
looked back.

AND, I have used the master/development version most of that time.
I have *never* lost an image as a fault of dt or the particular version,
or my library.

I have had to vacuum and "pragma integrity_check", where I once could not
open the library.  But I also had backups, but would have lost two
sessions of work, maybe 800 image worth, if I had to use the backup.

dt just works!

-- 
(paka)Patrick Shanahan   Plainfield, Indiana, USA  @ptilopteri
http://en.opensuse.orgopenSUSE Community Memberfacebook/ptilopteri
Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo   paka @ IRCnet freenode

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Re: [darktable-user] Darktable 3.2, a short review

[Michael]

On Mon, Aug 24, 2020 at 1:53 PM Patrick Shanahan  wrote:
>
> * Jason Polak  [08-24-20 11:56]:
> > I wonder though if some of that is not the psychology of used first vs.
> > second, though. Because, I started out with darktable, and only years
> > later did I try lightroom, and I found doing things in Lightroom
> > confusing even after half an hour with it. And when I first started out
> > with darktable, I found it pretty intuitive.
>
> have to agree with this.  It has been my experience.  Try rawtherapee if
> you want to experience another *completely* different work path.
>

Is that why we prefer dt?

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Re: [darktable-user] Darktable 3.2, a short review

[Pascal Obry]

Le lundi 24 août 2020 à 18:25 +0100, Ricardo Kozmate.Net a écrit :
> "Don't want to" is bit tough on people.

Don't you have crossed people thinking like this, with dubious
arguments to not use Linux, dubious arguments to not learn Libre
Office, dubious arguments to not use GIMP or dt... Because they are
already comfortable with Windows, MS Office, etc...

> So something that does not solve my problem my way is, obviously,
> wrong.

Wrong? No just maybe something that is not working for you.

> So, instead of saying people are lazy or stupid,

I certainly didn't say stupid, so please to not put words on my mouth.
Thanks. But yes lazy, we are all a bit like that and it really needs
quite a bit of energy to restart something from scratch, un-learning
and spending more time using another way for some time.

-- 
  Pascal Obry /  Magny Les Hameaux (78)

  The best way to travel is by means of imagination

  http://www.obry.net

  gpg --keyserver keys.gnupg.net --recv-key F949BD3B


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Re: [darktable-user] Darktable 3.2, a short review

[Patrick Shanahan]

* Jason Polak  [08-24-20 11:56]:
> I wonder though if some of that is not the psychology of used first vs.
> second, though. Because, I started out with darktable, and only years
> later did I try lightroom, and I found doing things in Lightroom
> confusing even after half an hour with it. And when I first started out
> with darktable, I found it pretty intuitive.

have to agree with this.  It has been my experience.  Try rawtherapee if
you want to experience another *completely* different work path.

> I don't think this explains everything, though. There is of course user
> experience, and then I am sure there are some things easier to do in
> Lightroom. In fact, I will admit that one thing about Lightroom that
> seems easier is sensible defaults when it comes to exposure and colour
> correction. It does seem to have some pretty good defaults when you just
> want some basic adjustments.

I find the latest filmic module to supply very good defaults.

> However, I also appreciate that because of the additional manual steps
> required in darktable, you eventually get to a point where you have more
> control and personality that you can put into your images, so after that
> initial period of learning (the "month"), trying to use lightroom feels
> awfully restrictive.

amen.

 g

-- 
(paka)Patrick Shanahan   Plainfield, Indiana, USA  @ptilopteri
http://en.opensuse.orgopenSUSE Community Memberfacebook/ptilopteri
Photos: http://wahoo.no-ip.org/piwigo   paka @ IRCnet freenode

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Re: [darktable-user] Darktable 3.2, a short review

[Mikael Ståldal]

I think you misunderstood. I am not a professional photographer, and I 
don't do photo editing every day. It would have been way less than I 
month if I have spent a couple of hours every day on this.


Calendar time vs. effective time.


On 2020-08-24 09:07, Kneops wrote:
Hi Michael. I agree ofcourse with what you say, but 'After a month'... 
is exactly what I mean. If it takes a month, something is not right. I 
never used LR, but opening it and - like I said - I could edit 99% of my 
images the way I want within 5 minutes. I even don't use Gimp anymore, 
unless my sensor had become too dirty ;).




Op 22-08-2020 om 22:04 schreef Mikael Ståldal:
The filmic module can be a bit intimidating and unfamiliar if you are 
used to Lightroom. But if you just spend a few hours watching videos 
and reading instructions, and practice on a dozen of your own images, 
you can become effective faster than you think. And it just got easier 
with Darktable 3.2!


After about a month of using Darktable, I feel that I can do about the 
same as I did in Lightroom. And I have the option to spend some 
additional learning effort and be able to do a lot more that was not 
possible with Lightroom.


So I agree with the sentiment: great and impressive work by the 
development team!




On 2020-08-20 09:38, Kneops wrote:
I agree, it is a marvellous piece of work, unbelievable really and I 
love it but not use it as much as I would like to. And I would never 
recommend it to friends :(. Even for me as a freelance photographer 
(20+ years of experience) it feels like it is made for techies, not 
(yet) intuitive enough. For example the filmic module is so full of 
options and sliders and words that are not obvious/comprehensible for 
most people and even I have much difficulty in understanding what 
they do. I just start using the sliders and always slide in the wrong 
direction at first ;). My feeling says that when I see a slider that 
says 'White relative exposure' I want to drag it to the right to get 
more white tones, but the opposite happens.


I'm not a fan of Windows, Adobe and LR, but I still use the latter 
because it is intuitive. With a few sliders I get almost exactly what 
I want with 99% of my images and very fast (even though LR lacks 
speed and I don't like the catalogs/collections system of it). That 
is why most people still use LR I think. It has sliders that are 
called White Tones, Black Tones, Highlights, Texture, all very clear 
in what they do and how to use them. If DT wants to drag a lot of 
people to its open source alternative, imho it needs to be 
simplified. LR lacks power and options for more adjustments, but what 
it does it does quite nicely. Highlight and shadow recovery always 
looks very natural, whereas in DT highlight recovery is not good 
enough and shadow recovery can look very harsh and artificial.


But... I'm really a fan of DT and hope I can use it on a daily basis 
and convert my newest pc back into a Linux machine, because LR is the 
only reason I bought it (my other Linux computer is for webdesign 
work). Could have been Capture One or one of the other options as 
well by the way, what I'm trying to say is not LR specific.



So, a lot of love and admiration for DT, but some suggestions for the 
future :).



Jack



Op 19-08-2020 om 10:00 schreef Pascal Obry:


Hi Jason,


Overall impressions: a worthy improvement (thanks, developers!). I am
going to adjust to a new workflow with darktable 3.2, but it is not a
big adjustment. I think overall darktable has come very far since the
early days, and it is hard to believe such a program is free
software.


Nice to read such message among all the bug reports. This amazing piece
of work is maintained by many talented people accros the planet. The
best we can do to keep our freedom against the big players trying to
lock us down in their world which ressemble to a golden jail.

Cheers,



 


darktable user mailing list
to unsubscribe send a mail to 
darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org


 


darktable user mailing list
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darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org


 


darktable user mailing list
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darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org




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Re: [darktable-user] Darktable 3.2, a short review

[Ricardo Kozmate.Net]

Hi, all.

Em 24/08/2020 17:47, Pascal Obry escreveu:

Le lundi 24 août 2020 à 11:54 -0400, Jason Polak a écrit :

I wonder though if some of that is not the psychology of used first
vs. second, though.

I think that's exactly that indeed. People don't want to change their
mind and learn new things.


"Don't want to" is bit tough on people.

I think we, people, tend to believe that the first thing we've learned 
and that is enough to solve all our (known) needs and wishes, is *the 
right thing*.


So something that does not solve my problem my way is, obviously, wrong.

Spending time, a year you say?, learning *the wrong thing* is a most 
obviously wrong option. So people don't.


So, instead of saying people are lazy or stupid, we should tell them 
that DT solves different problems. I don't know, I never used LR, but 
from what I read, the main advantages are price and better artistic control.


The price advantage is obvious, and most people coming from LR is 
probably coming for that reason, so no need to highlight it much, and 
anyway the site's main page already does so.


The site - main page and features page - also highlight a lot of 
goodies. Fine.


Probably it should also state upfront that we will be able to make basic 
editing right after installation but then to really get it going on it 
will take time, but then we will be able to do (this) and (that) better 
than (-LR-) just about anywhere else.


Yes, any good application takes time to master, anyone should know that, 
but it does not hurt if people gets reminded upfront, does it?



(I am just an amateur user very very far from mastering it)


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Re: [darktable-user] Darktable 3.2, a short review

[Pascal Obry]

Le lundi 24 août 2020 à 11:54 -0400, Jason Polak a écrit :
> I wonder though if some of that is not the psychology of used first
> vs. second, though.

I think that's exactly that indeed. People don't want to change their
mind and learn new things.

On my side, I've been a Lr user for 5 years+ when I decided to switch
to dt. I did develop only one picture with it for each batch developed
with Lr. I was far more productive with Lr, found dt more difficult to
grasp and I had too many pictures to develop to switch yet. But I had
the strong motivation to leave Adobe product for good. After many
months working this way I felt more confortable.

Now what about my current edits in Lr? Okay, I decided to step in and
do the Lr conversion module which is integrated in dt. All my tags,
color labels, stars and some devs can be converted with it.

Almost one year, yes one year, after trying dt for the first time I
decided to fully switch to it.

So people trying it, not reading manuals, not looking at the excellent
Youtube tutorials around and wanting to prepare an exhibition or nice
gallery won't switch at all. This has been said again and again, dt is
not Lr and you cannot just switch to it without reviewing your full
workflow and investing quite some time on it.

My 2 cents!

-- 
  Pascal Obry /  Magny Les Hameaux (78)

  The best way to travel is by means of imagination

  http://www.obry.net

  gpg --keyserver keys.gnupg.net --recv-key F949BD3B


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Re: [darktable-user] Darktable 3.2, a short review

[Jason Polak]

I wonder though if some of that is not the psychology of used first vs.
second, though. Because, I started out with darktable, and only years
later did I try lightroom, and I found doing things in Lightroom
confusing even after half an hour with it. And when I first started out
with darktable, I found it pretty intuitive.

I don't think this explains everything, though. There is of course user
experience, and then I am sure there are some things easier to do in
Lightroom. In fact, I will admit that one thing about Lightroom that
seems easier is sensible defaults when it comes to exposure and colour
correction. It does seem to have some pretty good defaults when you just
want some basic adjustments.

However, I also appreciate that because of the additional manual steps
required in darktable, you eventually get to a point where you have more
control and personality that you can put into your images, so after that
initial period of learning (the "month"), trying to use lightroom feels
awfully restrictive.

Jason

On 24/08/2020 03.07, Kneops wrote:
> Hi Michael. I agree ofcourse with what you say, but 'After a month'...
> is exactly what I mean. If it takes a month, something is not right. I
> never used LR, but opening it and - like I said - I could edit 99% of my
> images the way I want within 5 minutes. I even don't use Gimp anymore,
> unless my sensor had become too dirty ;).
> 
> 
> 
> Op 22-08-2020 om 22:04 schreef Mikael Ståldal:
>> The filmic module can be a bit intimidating and unfamiliar if you are
>> used to Lightroom. But if you just spend a few hours watching videos
>> and reading instructions, and practice on a dozen of your own images,
>> you can become effective faster than you think. And it just got easier
>> with Darktable 3.2!
>>
>> After about a month of using Darktable, I feel that I can do about the
>> same as I did in Lightroom. And I have the option to spend some
>> additional learning effort and be able to do a lot more that was not
>> possible with Lightroom.
>>
>> So I agree with the sentiment: great and impressive work by the
>> development team!
>>
>>
>>
>> On 2020-08-20 09:38, Kneops wrote:
>>> I agree, it is a marvellous piece of work, unbelievable really and I
>>> love it but not use it as much as I would like to. And I would never
>>> recommend it to friends :(. Even for me as a freelance photographer
>>> (20+ years of experience) it feels like it is made for techies, not
>>> (yet) intuitive enough. For example the filmic module is so full of
>>> options and sliders and words that are not obvious/comprehensible for
>>> most people and even I have much difficulty in understanding what
>>> they do. I just start using the sliders and always slide in the wrong
>>> direction at first ;). My feeling says that when I see a slider that
>>> says 'White relative exposure' I want to drag it to the right to get
>>> more white tones, but the opposite happens.
>>>
>>> I'm not a fan of Windows, Adobe and LR, but I still use the latter
>>> because it is intuitive. With a few sliders I get almost exactly what
>>> I want with 99% of my images and very fast (even though LR lacks
>>> speed and I don't like the catalogs/collections system of it). That
>>> is why most people still use LR I think. It has sliders that are
>>> called White Tones, Black Tones, Highlights, Texture, all very clear
>>> in what they do and how to use them. If DT wants to drag a lot of
>>> people to its open source alternative, imho it needs to be
>>> simplified. LR lacks power and options for more adjustments, but what
>>> it does it does quite nicely. Highlight and shadow recovery always
>>> looks very natural, whereas in DT highlight recovery is not good
>>> enough and shadow recovery can look very harsh and artificial.
>>>
>>> But... I'm really a fan of DT and hope I can use it on a daily basis
>>> and convert my newest pc back into a Linux machine, because LR is the
>>> only reason I bought it (my other Linux computer is for webdesign
>>> work). Could have been Capture One or one of the other options as
>>> well by the way, what I'm trying to say is not LR specific.
>>>
>>>
>>> So, a lot of love and admiration for DT, but some suggestions for the
>>> future :).
>>>
>>>
>>> Jack
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Op 19-08-2020 om 10:00 schreef Pascal Obry:

 Hi Jason,

> Overall impressions: a worthy improvement (thanks, developers!). I am
> going to adjust to a new workflow with darktable 3.2, but it is not a
> big adjustment. I think overall darktable has come very far since the
> early days, and it is hard to believe such a program is free
> software.

 Nice to read such message among all the bug reports. This amazing piece
 of work is maintained by many talented people accros the planet. The
 best we can do to keep our freedom against the big players trying to
 lock us down in their world which ressemble to a golden jail.

 Cheers,

>>>
>>> 

Re: [darktable-user] Darktable 3.2, a short review

[Kneops]

Hi Michael. I agree ofcourse with what you say, but 'After a month'... 
is exactly what I mean. If it takes a month, something is not right. I 
never used LR, but opening it and - like I said - I could edit 99% of my 
images the way I want within 5 minutes. I even don't use Gimp anymore, 
unless my sensor had become too dirty ;).




Op 22-08-2020 om 22:04 schreef Mikael Ståldal:
The filmic module can be a bit intimidating and unfamiliar if you are 
used to Lightroom. But if you just spend a few hours watching videos and 
reading instructions, and practice on a dozen of your own images, you 
can become effective faster than you think. And it just got easier with 
Darktable 3.2!


After about a month of using Darktable, I feel that I can do about the 
same as I did in Lightroom. And I have the option to spend some 
additional learning effort and be able to do a lot more that was not 
possible with Lightroom.


So I agree with the sentiment: great and impressive work by the 
development team!




On 2020-08-20 09:38, Kneops wrote:
I agree, it is a marvellous piece of work, unbelievable really and I 
love it but not use it as much as I would like to. And I would never 
recommend it to friends :(. Even for me as a freelance photographer 
(20+ years of experience) it feels like it is made for techies, not 
(yet) intuitive enough. For example the filmic module is so full of 
options and sliders and words that are not obvious/comprehensible for 
most people and even I have much difficulty in understanding what they 
do. I just start using the sliders and always slide in the wrong 
direction at first ;). My feeling says that when I see a slider that 
says 'White relative exposure' I want to drag it to the right to get 
more white tones, but the opposite happens.


I'm not a fan of Windows, Adobe and LR, but I still use the latter 
because it is intuitive. With a few sliders I get almost exactly what 
I want with 99% of my images and very fast (even though LR lacks speed 
and I don't like the catalogs/collections system of it). That is why 
most people still use LR I think. It has sliders that are called White 
Tones, Black Tones, Highlights, Texture, all very clear in what they 
do and how to use them. If DT wants to drag a lot of people to its 
open source alternative, imho it needs to be simplified. LR lacks 
power and options for more adjustments, but what it does it does quite 
nicely. Highlight and shadow recovery always looks very natural, 
whereas in DT highlight recovery is not good enough and shadow 
recovery can look very harsh and artificial.


But... I'm really a fan of DT and hope I can use it on a daily basis 
and convert my newest pc back into a Linux machine, because LR is the 
only reason I bought it (my other Linux computer is for webdesign 
work). Could have been Capture One or one of the other options as well 
by the way, what I'm trying to say is not LR specific.



So, a lot of love and admiration for DT, but some suggestions for the 
future :).



Jack



Op 19-08-2020 om 10:00 schreef Pascal Obry:


Hi Jason,


Overall impressions: a worthy improvement (thanks, developers!). I am
going to adjust to a new workflow with darktable 3.2, but it is not a
big adjustment. I think overall darktable has come very far since the
early days, and it is hard to believe such a program is free
software.


Nice to read such message among all the bug reports. This amazing piece
of work is maintained by many talented people accros the planet. The
best we can do to keep our freedom against the big players trying to
lock us down in their world which ressemble to a golden jail.

Cheers,



 


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Re: [darktable-user] Darktable 3.2, a short review

[Mikael Ståldal]

The filmic module can be a bit intimidating and unfamiliar if you are 
used to Lightroom. But if you just spend a few hours watching videos and 
reading instructions, and practice on a dozen of your own images, you 
can become effective faster than you think. And it just got easier with 
Darktable 3.2!


After about a month of using Darktable, I feel that I can do about the 
same as I did in Lightroom. And I have the option to spend some 
additional learning effort and be able to do a lot more that was not 
possible with Lightroom.


So I agree with the sentiment: great and impressive work by the 
development team!




On 2020-08-20 09:38, Kneops wrote:
I agree, it is a marvellous piece of work, unbelievable really and I 
love it but not use it as much as I would like to. And I would never 
recommend it to friends :(. Even for me as a freelance photographer (20+ 
years of experience) it feels like it is made for techies, not (yet) 
intuitive enough. For example the filmic module is so full of options 
and sliders and words that are not obvious/comprehensible for most 
people and even I have much difficulty in understanding what they do. I 
just start using the sliders and always slide in the wrong direction at 
first ;). My feeling says that when I see a slider that says 'White 
relative exposure' I want to drag it to the right to get more white 
tones, but the opposite happens.


I'm not a fan of Windows, Adobe and LR, but I still use the latter 
because it is intuitive. With a few sliders I get almost exactly what I 
want with 99% of my images and very fast (even though LR lacks speed and 
I don't like the catalogs/collections system of it). That is why most 
people still use LR I think. It has sliders that are called White Tones, 
Black Tones, Highlights, Texture, all very clear in what they do and how 
to use them. If DT wants to drag a lot of people to its open source 
alternative, imho it needs to be simplified. LR lacks power and options 
for more adjustments, but what it does it does quite nicely. Highlight 
and shadow recovery always looks very natural, whereas in DT highlight 
recovery is not good enough and shadow recovery can look very harsh and 
artificial.


But... I'm really a fan of DT and hope I can use it on a daily basis and 
convert my newest pc back into a Linux machine, because LR is the only 
reason I bought it (my other Linux computer is for webdesign work). 
Could have been Capture One or one of the other options as well by the 
way, what I'm trying to say is not LR specific.



So, a lot of love and admiration for DT, but some suggestions for the 
future :).



Jack



Op 19-08-2020 om 10:00 schreef Pascal Obry:


Hi Jason,


Overall impressions: a worthy improvement (thanks, developers!). I am
going to adjust to a new workflow with darktable 3.2, but it is not a
big adjustment. I think overall darktable has come very far since the
early days, and it is hard to believe such a program is free
software.


Nice to read such message among all the bug reports. This amazing piece
of work is maintained by many talented people accros the planet. The
best we can do to keep our freedom against the big players trying to
lock us down in their world which ressemble to a golden jail.

Cheers,



 


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Re: [darktable-user] Darktable 3.2, a short review

[Kneops]

Thanks Marc! Usually I don't need that high a quality, most of my 
clients are very satisfied with hirez RGB jpegs (print and screen), but 
it is certainly an idea to export them also as 16 bit tiffs. I don't 
think I will ever need Prophoto though, but in case I do I can always 
reopen the raw file in DT, or subcribe to LR for one month ;). Currently 
my plan is to edit and export everything I could have use for in the 
future within my current year subscription of LR.




Op 21-08-2020 om 12:17 schreef marc.ca...@gmail.com:

Hello Jack,

LR exit :  LR export - dt import


My LR exit strategy involves exporting my best photos as 16 bit Tiff's in 
Prophoto colorspace. These can be ugly coloured when displayed on an sRGB 
display (my system's colour management cannot deal with this).  But after 
importing them into darktable the colours are entirely recovered (dt's colour 
management does a great job !). I then set the working colourspace (input 
profile module) on Linear Prophoto RGB.  As such I should (expect to) obtain 
high (16 bit) precision if I still want to do small edits on them. I keep the 
Raw's too of course.  It must be said those Tiff's are 2.5 times the size of 
the Raw's.


Marc.

-Oorspronkelijk bericht-
Van: Kneops 
Verzonden: vrijdag 21 augustus 2020 9:45
Aan: darktable-user@lists.darktable.org
Onderwerp: Re: [darktable-user] Darktable 3.2, a short review

My current reason for using LR is that I'm re-editing all my digital images I 
find worthwhile saving, starting from 2002, and then export them in 3 different 
ways: jpeg small for web, RGB and Adobe RGB high quality jpegs. Those I will 
keep on several backup drives.

After I'm finished (and LR is much quicker in editing so no DT here), I don't 
think I will need to edit them a second time and I could stop my subscription 
of LR and start editing with DT again. But only if it doesn't take too long and 
the results are as natural looking as the ones I get from LR (or other 
software). Should I ever need to re-edit an image I could do that from scratch 
with DT.



Op 20-08-2020 om 18:14 schreef Remco Viëtor:

As for being held hostage: if you stop paying for LR etc., you will
not be able to easily modify your existing edits, true. Otoh, if for
whatever reason you can no longer use darktable, you'll find yourself
in the exact same situation...


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RE: [darktable-user] Darktable 3.2, a short review

[marc.cabuy]

Hello Jack,

LR exit :  LR export - dt import


My LR exit strategy involves exporting my best photos as 16 bit Tiff's in 
Prophoto colorspace. These can be ugly coloured when displayed on an sRGB 
display (my system's colour management cannot deal with this).  But after 
importing them into darktable the colours are entirely recovered (dt's colour 
management does a great job !). I then set the working colourspace (input 
profile module) on Linear Prophoto RGB.  As such I should (expect to) obtain 
high (16 bit) precision if I still want to do small edits on them. I keep the 
Raw's too of course.  It must be said those Tiff's are 2.5 times the size of 
the Raw's.


Marc.

-Oorspronkelijk bericht-
Van: Kneops  
Verzonden: vrijdag 21 augustus 2020 9:45
Aan: darktable-user@lists.darktable.org
Onderwerp: Re: [darktable-user] Darktable 3.2, a short review

My current reason for using LR is that I'm re-editing all my digital images I 
find worthwhile saving, starting from 2002, and then export them in 3 different 
ways: jpeg small for web, RGB and Adobe RGB high quality jpegs. Those I will 
keep on several backup drives.

After I'm finished (and LR is much quicker in editing so no DT here), I don't 
think I will need to edit them a second time and I could stop my subscription 
of LR and start editing with DT again. But only if it doesn't take too long and 
the results are as natural looking as the ones I get from LR (or other 
software). Should I ever need to re-edit an image I could do that from scratch 
with DT.



Op 20-08-2020 om 18:14 schreef Remco Viëtor:
> As for being held hostage: if you stop paying for LR etc., you will 
> not be able to easily modify your existing edits, true. Otoh, if for 
> whatever reason you can no longer use darktable, you'll find yourself 
> in the exact same situation...

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Re: [darktable-user] Darktable 3.2, a short review

[Kneops]

Yes this is possible and I have used them for years, but it is much 
harder to get the same results as compared to LR. I worked with DT for a 
few years and then tried LR trial version. I did not like the fact that 
I had to use the subscription model, but for now it gives me much better 
and quicker result. And the parametric masks are great, but since using 
LR which has better highlight and shadow recovery and the brush tool, I 
found that I did not need the parametric masks, except perhaps in a very 
small amount of images.


I will get back to DT in the end :) I just don't know when.




Op 20-08-2020 om 18:35 schreef Pascal Obry:

Start dt, put 5 simple modules (tone curve, exposition, color zone, wb,
crop & rotate) in your favorites. Start from this and you'll see that
it is not that difficult.

So that's certainly not difficult for everybody.


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Re: [darktable-user] Darktable 3.2, a short review

[Kneops]

My current reason for using LR is that I'm re-editing all my digital 
images I find worthwhile saving, starting from 2002, and then export 
them in 3 different ways: jpeg small for web, RGB and Adobe RGB high 
quality jpegs. Those I will keep on several backup drives.


After I'm finished (and LR is much quicker in editing so no DT here), I 
don't think I will need to edit them a second time and I could stop my 
subscription of LR and start editing with DT again. But only if it 
doesn't take too long and the results are as natural looking as the ones 
I get from LR (or other software). Should I ever need to re-edit an 
image I could do that from scratch with DT.




Op 20-08-2020 om 18:14 schreef Remco Viëtor:

As for being held hostage: if you stop paying for LR etc., you will not be
able to easily modify your existing edits, true. Otoh, if for whatever reason
you can no longer use darktable, you'll find yourself in the exact same
situation...


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Re: [darktable-user] Darktable 3.2, a short review

[Michael Rasmussen]

On Thu, 20 Aug 2020 20:21:33 +0200
Marc Cabuy  wrote:
> encountered in the very first weeks with dt. But is there somewhere a
> blog (in English or French) that you can advise where ideas are
> exchanged/posted about (creative) use of dt's capabilities?
> 
Have you tried this? https://pixls.us/

-- 
Hilsen/Regards
Michael Rasmussen

Get my public GnuPG keys:
michael  rasmussen  cc
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--
/usr/games/fortune -es says:
Your job is being a professor and researcher: That's one hell of a good
excuse for some of the brain-damages of minix.
(Linus Torvalds to Andrew Tanenbaum)


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Re: [darktable-user] Darktable 3.2, a short review

[orcinus.phil]

Hi, I absolutely agree it can be very easy to use. Darktable like all software 
apps has a learning curve but you tube has loads of videos to help, I found 
that using lightroom years ago I had the initial learning process. You can 
create styles in dt to speed things up and just apply them then fine tune 
after. I would never consider a move back to in my opinion inferior software 
with it's lack of masking options, and again in my opinion a bloated catalogue 
system taking up valuable storage on the hard drive, not to mention the cost. 
Many of my friends have moved to dt over the years and none have gone back, in 
fact many have also moved to linux on my recommendation and none of them have 
moved back to microsoft. Long live open source, it's the way forward. A big 
thanks to all the developers of darktable for there work over the years, wow dt 
3.2.1 is brilliant, the new theme's, import options, filmic rgb, tone curve etc 
etc etc.
Phil


Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Thursday, 20 August 2020 17:35, Pascal Obry  wrote:

> Le jeudi 20 août 2020 à 17:18 +0200, marc.ca...@gmail.com a écrit :
>
> > But otherwise you have to warn your friends that the threshold for
> > learning dt is high. Lightroom and others are, as you say, much
> > simpler and intuitive.
>
> I just don't agree. I had given courses on Lightroom (just to say I
> knew it pretty well) but you have to compare them with the same
> feature. I had no problem moving to darktable and you want to consider
> the feature available in Lr only when comparing. Of course dt can do
> lot better (masking, tools like Filmic, Liquify...) but this is not
> available in Lr.
>
> Start dt, put 5 simple modules (tone curve, exposition, color zone, wb,
> crop & rotate) in your favorites. Start from this and you'll see that
> it is not that difficult.
>
> So that's certainly not difficult for everybody.
>
> --
>
> Pascal Obry / Magny Les Hameaux (78)
>
> The best way to travel is by means of imagination
>
> http://www.obry.net
>
> gpg --keyserver keys.gnupg.net --recv-key F949BD3B
>
> darktable user mailing list
> to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org



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Re: [darktable-user] Darktable 3.2, a short review

[Chas G]

It appears that this email may not have been delivered - so I am re-sending
it. If this is a duplication I apologize.

I have been following this thread and agree wholeheartedly that darktable
is an incredible piece of software. I'm a bit surprised that someone could
call it very difficult.  Any really capable graphics program is going to
have many complexities and endless features., so the question of how
intuitive a program is must be evaluated against true peers and possibly on
the basis of the program's unique strengths.

The real strength of DT - for me at least -  is the speed and precision
with which various effects can be applied - mainly via masks. As far as I
know, it is unique in this regard.

I strongly suggest that beginners find good Youtube videos on DT and learn
the essentials  -  only the absolute basics of a couple of modules first.

Learn the Contrast Brightness Saturation module.

Learn the application of a mask very early.

Learn how to add new instances of a module.

Learn the interface.

Learn the Crop And Rotate module.

Get good at these two before venturing much further. Maybe a little color
management. But don't try to master ten modules at one time. Only a few
modules are needed to have enormous editing power.

Stay completely away from management of groups of images at first. For a
beginner, the management of large collections of images is a distraction
and only duplicates (mostly) the functions of many other pieces of
software.

Reading some comments convinces me that people are trying to deploy too
many features all at once, far too early in the learning process.

As far as recommending software to friends, better to briefly mention it
and then immediately change the subject. People switch software when they
are ready and not a moment before. Just because I love DT or Linux means
almost nothing to friends and acquaintances.


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Re: [darktable-user] Darktable 3.2, a short review

[KOVÁCS István]

On Thu, 20 Aug 2020 at 09:40, Kneops  wrote:
> For example the filmic module is so full of options
> and sliders and words that are not obvious/comprehensible for most
> people

You don't *have to* use them all... I set exposure in the exposure
module, set the white and black point, and that's it for filmic. For
filmic v3, there was even a style for Aurélien where you didn't even
have to touch filmic at all.
https://discuss.pixls.us/t/basic-semi-automated-style-for-darktable-3-0-filmic/17072?u=aurelienpierre

Or see https://discuss.pixls.us/t/darktable-3-0-for-dummies-in-3-modules/15849

Kofa

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Re: [darktable-user] Darktable 3.2, a short review

[Marc Cabuy]

All,

Thank you for your feedback. I highly value your reflections on my black 
statements, certainly when it comes to convince others/friends about (my recent 
discovery of) darktable.
This current blog has been very helpful, and still is, for issues that I 
encountered in the very first weeks with dt. But is there somewhere a blog (in 
English or French) that you can advise where ideas are exchanged/posted about 
(creative) use of dt's capabilities?

Also again thank you to all involved in the making and growing of dt.
Marc.



> Op 20 aug. 2020 om 18:58 heeft orcinus.phil  het 
> volgende geschreven:
> 
> Hi, I absolutely agree it can be very easy to use. Darktable like all 
> software apps has a learning curve but you tube has loads of videos to help, 
> I found that using lightroom years ago I had the initial learning process. 
> You can create styles in dt to speed things up and just apply them then fine 
> tune after. I would never consider a move back to in my opinion inferior 
> software with it's lack of masking options, and again in my opinion a bloated 
> catalogue system taking up valuable storage on the hard drive, not to mention 
> the cost. Many of my friends have moved to dt over the years and none have 
> gone back, in fact many have also moved to linux on my recommendation and 
> none of them have moved back to microsoft. Long live open source, it's the 
> way forward. A big thanks to all the developers of darktable for there work 
> over the years, wow dt 3.2.1 is brilliant, the new theme's, import options, 
> filmic rgb, tone curve etc etc etc.
> Phil
> 
> 
> Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.
> 
> ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
>> On Thursday, 20 August 2020 17:35, Pascal Obry  wrote:
>> 
>>> Le jeudi 20 août 2020 à 17:18 +0200, marc.ca...@gmail.com a écrit :
>>> 
>>> But otherwise you have to warn your friends that the threshold for
>>> learning dt is high. Lightroom and others are, as you say, much
>>> simpler and intuitive.
>> 
>> I just don't agree. I had given courses on Lightroom (just to say I
>> knew it pretty well) but you have to compare them with the same
>> feature. I had no problem moving to darktable and you want to consider
>> the feature available in Lr only when comparing. Of course dt can do
>> lot better (masking, tools like Filmic, Liquify...) but this is not
>> available in Lr.
>> 
>> Start dt, put 5 simple modules (tone curve, exposition, color zone, wb,
>> crop & rotate) in your favorites. Start from this and you'll see that
>> it is not that difficult.
>> 
>> So that's certainly not difficult for everybody.
>> 
>> --
>> 
>> Pascal Obry / Magny Les Hameaux (78)
>> 
>> The best way to travel is by means of imagination
>> 
>> http://www.obry.net
>> 
>> gpg --keyserver keys.gnupg.net --recv-key F949BD3B
>> 
>> darktable user mailing list
>> to unsubscribe send a mail to darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
> 
> 

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Re: [darktable-user] Darktable 3.2, a short review darktable-user@lists.darktable.org

[Chas G]

I have been following this thread and agree wholeheartedly that darktable
is an incredible piece of software. I'm a bit surprised that someone could
call it very difficult.  Any really capable graphics program is going to
have many complexities and endless features., so the question of how
intuitive a program is must be evaluated against true peers and possibly on
the basis of the program's unique strengths.

The real strength of DT - for me at least -  is the speed and precision
with which various effects can be applied - mainly via masks. As far as I
know, it is unique in this regard.

I strongly suggest that beginners find good Youtube videos on DT and learn
the essentials  -  only the absolute basics of a couple of modules first.

Learn the Contrast Brightness Saturation module.

Learn the application of a mask very early.

Learn how to add new instances of a module.

Learn the interface.

Learn the Crop And Rotate module.

Get good at these two before venturing much further. Maybe a little color
management. But don't try to master ten modules at one time. Only a few
modules are needed to have enormous editing power.

Stay completely away from management of groups of images at first. For a
beginner, the management of large collections of images is a distraction
and only duplicates (mostly) the functions of many other pieces of
software.

Reading some comments convinces me that people are trying to deploy too
many features all at once, far too early in the learning process.

As far as recommending software to friends, better to briefly mention it
and then immediately change the subject. People switch software when they
are ready and not a moment before. Just because I love DT or Linux means
almost nothing to friends and acquaintances.


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Re: [darktable-user] Darktable 3.2, a short review

[David Vincent-Jones]

I have to agree with Pascal that there is a 'simplified' way of using dt 
that essentially makes it even far easier than using lr.


I place 6 modules into my favorites, each is preset for my normal needs 
and then with 90% of my images all I need to do is to adjust the white 
and black relative exposure in filmic-rgb . nothing else!


Selective masking and all of the extra goodies that come with dt should 
always be considered secondary to being able to produce good results 
with minimum of effort.


Yes, I do have 'difficult' images that do take more time but the most 
recent iteration of dt makes basic processing a breeze.


David

On 20.08.20 18:35, Pascal Obry wrote:

Le jeudi 20 août 2020 à 17:18 +0200, marc.ca...@gmail.com a écrit :

But otherwise you have to warn your friends that the threshold for
learning dt is high. Lightroom and others are, as you say, much
simpler and intuitive.

I just don't agree. I had given courses on Lightroom (just to say I
knew it pretty well) but you have to compare them with the same
feature. I had no problem moving to darktable and you want to consider
the feature available in Lr only when comparing. Of course dt can do
lot better (masking, tools like Filmic, Liquify...) but this is not
available in Lr.

Start dt, put 5 simple modules (tone curve, exposition, color zone, wb,
crop & rotate) in your favorites. Start from this and you'll see that
it is not that difficult.

So that's certainly not difficult for everybody.




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Re: [darktable-user] Darktable 3.2, a short review

[Pascal Obry]

Le jeudi 20 août 2020 à 17:18 +0200, marc.ca...@gmail.com a écrit :
> But otherwise you have to warn your friends that the threshold for
> learning dt is high. Lightroom and others are, as you say, much
> simpler and intuitive.

I just don't agree. I had given courses on Lightroom (just to say I
knew it pretty well) but you have to compare them with the same
feature. I had no problem moving to darktable and you want to consider
the feature available in Lr only when comparing. Of course dt can do
lot better (masking, tools like Filmic, Liquify...) but this is not
available in Lr.

Start dt, put 5 simple modules (tone curve, exposition, color zone, wb,
crop & rotate) in your favorites. Start from this and you'll see that
it is not that difficult.

So that's certainly not difficult for everybody.

-- 
  Pascal Obry /  Magny Les Hameaux (78)

  The best way to travel is by means of imagination

  http://www.obry.net

  gpg --keyserver keys.gnupg.net --recv-key F949BD3B


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Re: [darktable-user] Darktable 3.2, a short review

[Remco Viëtor]

On jeudi 20 août 2020 17:18:22 CEST marc.ca...@gmail.com wrote:
> Jack,
> 
> I do indeed think that I also will not be able to easily convince friends to
> use darktable. As an amateur, my reason for trying to use dt has to do with
> the subscription model that is being established more and more by software
> publishers. Not only by Adobe, also Microsoft does that with Office 365. So
> you might convince your friends as follows.
>
 You may or may not like the subscription model, but buying the software and 
upgrades wasn't cheap either (afaik, yearly costs came to about the same 
amount). 

> “If you don't want to be held in hostage financially with your own
> collection of photos in the catalog, you should consider leaving Lightroom.
> Because you cannot control the price and the easiness of access to your own
> work in the catalog.”
>
As for being held hostage: if you stop paying for LR etc., you will not be 
able to easily modify your existing edits, true. Otoh, if for whatever reason 
you can no longer use darktable, you'll find yourself in the exact same 
situation... 

In both cases, you'll still have your original files and any edits you 
exported to an external file (jpg, tiff, png, ...)

And in both cases, if you  write sidecar files, you'll have access to all the 
metadata as well (if they weren't written with the exports).

> Furthermore, I don't really trust Capture One in that area either. There is
> speculation that they also may apply a subscription only model in the
> future.

Keep in mind that those (windows) programs are written and maintained by large 
corporations, with a *paid* staff of programmers, documentation writers etc. 
There is no way that a free open source program like darktable can reach a 
similar level of staffing. 

Remco




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RE: [darktable-user] Darktable 3.2, a short review

[marc.cabuy]

Jack,

I do indeed think that I also will not be able to easily convince friends to 
use darktable. As an amateur, my reason for trying to use dt has to do with the 
subscription model that is being established more and more by software 
publishers. Not only by Adobe, also Microsoft does that with Office 365. So you 
might convince your friends as follows. 

“If you don't want to be held in hostage financially with your own collection 
of photos in the catalog, you should consider leaving Lightroom. Because you 
cannot control the price and the easiness of access to your own work in the 
catalog.” 

Furthermore, I don't really trust Capture One in that area either. There is 
speculation that they also may apply a subscription only model in the future.

But otherwise you have to warn your friends that the threshold for learning dt 
is high. Lightroom and others are, as you say, much simpler and intuitive. I 
started using dt about 2 months ago in my free time (I have a fulltime job) and 
I only have now my 1st 4 photos to my liking. 

Also there might come more of intuitive modules, like for instance the ‘basic 
adjustments’ module. The MAC and Windows versions make it also accessible to 
the broader public.

Marc.

-Oorspronkelijk bericht-
Van: Kneops  
Verzonden: donderdag 20 augustus 2020 9:39
Aan: darktable-user@lists.darktable.org
Onderwerp: Re: [darktable-user] Darktable 3.2, a short review

@jason and @pascal,

I agree, it is a marvellous piece of work, unbelievable really and I love it 
but not use it as much as I would like to. And I would never recommend it to 
friends :(. Even for me as a freelance photographer (20+ years of experience) 
it feels like it is made for techies, not (yet) intuitive enough. For example 
the filmic module is so full of options and sliders and words that are not 
obvious/comprehensible for most people and even I have much difficulty in 
understanding what they do. I just start using the sliders and always slide in 
the wrong direction at first ;). My feeling says that when I see a slider that 
says 'White relative exposure' I want to drag it to the right to get more white 
tones, but the opposite happens.

I'm not a fan of Windows, Adobe and LR, but I still use the latter because it 
is intuitive. With a few sliders I get almost exactly what I want with 99% of 
my images and very fast (even though LR lacks speed and I don't like the 
catalogs/collections system of it). That is why most people still use LR I 
think. It has sliders that are called White Tones, Black Tones, Highlights, 
Texture, all very clear in what they do and how to use them. If DT wants to 
drag a lot of people to its open source alternative, imho it needs to be 
simplified. LR lacks power and options for more adjustments, but what it does 
it does quite nicely. Highlight and shadow recovery always looks very natural, 
whereas in DT highlight recovery is not good enough and shadow recovery can 
look very harsh and artificial.

But... I'm really a fan of DT and hope I can use it on a daily basis and 
convert my newest pc back into a Linux machine, because LR is the only reason I 
bought it (my other Linux computer is for webdesign work). 
Could have been Capture One or one of the other options as well by the way, 
what I'm trying to say is not LR specific.


So, a lot of love and admiration for DT, but some suggestions for the future :).


Jack



Op 19-08-2020 om 10:00 schreef Pascal Obry:
> 
> Hi Jason,
> 
>> Overall impressions: a worthy improvement (thanks, developers!). I am
>> going to adjust to a new workflow with darktable 3.2, but it is not a
>> big adjustment. I think overall darktable has come very far since the
>> early days, and it is hard to believe such a program is free
>> software.
> 
> Nice to read such message among all the bug reports. This amazing piece
> of work is maintained by many talented people accros the planet. The
> best we can do to keep our freedom against the big players trying to
> lock us down in their world which ressemble to a golden jail.
> 
> Cheers,
> 


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Re: [darktable-user] Darktable 3.2, a short review

[Kneops]

@jason and @pascal,

I agree, it is a marvellous piece of work, unbelievable really and I 
love it but not use it as much as I would like to. And I would never 
recommend it to friends :(. Even for me as a freelance photographer (20+ 
years of experience) it feels like it is made for techies, not (yet) 
intuitive enough. For example the filmic module is so full of options 
and sliders and words that are not obvious/comprehensible for most 
people and even I have much difficulty in understanding what they do. I 
just start using the sliders and always slide in the wrong direction at 
first ;). My feeling says that when I see a slider that says 'White 
relative exposure' I want to drag it to the right to get more white 
tones, but the opposite happens.


I'm not a fan of Windows, Adobe and LR, but I still use the latter 
because it is intuitive. With a few sliders I get almost exactly what I 
want with 99% of my images and very fast (even though LR lacks speed and 
I don't like the catalogs/collections system of it). That is why most 
people still use LR I think. It has sliders that are called White Tones, 
Black Tones, Highlights, Texture, all very clear in what they do and how 
to use them. If DT wants to drag a lot of people to its open source 
alternative, imho it needs to be simplified. LR lacks power and options 
for more adjustments, but what it does it does quite nicely. Highlight 
and shadow recovery always looks very natural, whereas in DT highlight 
recovery is not good enough and shadow recovery can look very harsh and 
artificial.


But... I'm really a fan of DT and hope I can use it on a daily basis and 
convert my newest pc back into a Linux machine, because LR is the only 
reason I bought it (my other Linux computer is for webdesign work). 
Could have been Capture One or one of the other options as well by the 
way, what I'm trying to say is not LR specific.



So, a lot of love and admiration for DT, but some suggestions for the 
future :).



Jack



Op 19-08-2020 om 10:00 schreef Pascal Obry:


Hi Jason,


Overall impressions: a worthy improvement (thanks, developers!). I am
going to adjust to a new workflow with darktable 3.2, but it is not a
big adjustment. I think overall darktable has come very far since the
early days, and it is hard to believe such a program is free
software.


Nice to read such message among all the bug reports. This amazing piece
of work is maintained by many talented people accros the planet. The
best we can do to keep our freedom against the big players trying to
lock us down in their world which ressemble to a golden jail.

Cheers,




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Re: [darktable-user] Darktable 3.2, a short review

[Terry Pinfold]

Hi Pascal and Co. You have done a great job with DT. I have access to LR
and PS and all Adobe programs because I my job but I just love DT and the
masks that allow local adjustments. I confess I would love to see Dt and
Rawtherapee join forces and become Dark Therapee, but I guess that will not
happen. Both programs have great developers and great features. DT wins out
for localised masking.

On Wed, 19 Aug 2020 at 18:05, Pascal Obry  wrote:

>
> Hi Jason,
>
> > Overall impressions: a worthy improvement (thanks, developers!). I am
> > going to adjust to a new workflow with darktable 3.2, but it is not a
> > big adjustment. I think overall darktable has come very far since the
> > early days, and it is hard to believe such a program is free
> > software.
>
> Nice to read such message among all the bug reports. This amazing piece
> of work is maintained by many talented people accros the planet. The
> best we can do to keep our freedom against the big players trying to
> lock us down in their world which ressemble to a golden jail.
>
> Cheers,
>
> --
>   Pascal Obry /  Magny Les Hameaux (78)
>
>   The best way to travel is by means of imagination
>
>   http://www.obry.net
>
>   gpg --keyserver keys.gnupg.net --recv-key F949BD3B
>
>
> 
> darktable user mailing list
> to unsubscribe send a mail to
> darktable-user+unsubscr...@lists.darktable.org
>
>

-- 
Dr Terry Pinfold
Cytometry & Histology Lab Manager
Lecturer in Flow Cytometry
University of Tasmania
17 Liverpool St, Hobart, 7000
Ph 6226 4846 or 0408 699053


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Re: [darktable-user] Darktable 3.2, a short review

[Pascal Obry]

Hi Jason,

> Overall impressions: a worthy improvement (thanks, developers!). I am
> going to adjust to a new workflow with darktable 3.2, but it is not a
> big adjustment. I think overall darktable has come very far since the
> early days, and it is hard to believe such a program is free
> software.

Nice to read such message among all the bug reports. This amazing piece
of work is maintained by many talented people accros the planet. The
best we can do to keep our freedom against the big players trying to
lock us down in their world which ressemble to a golden jail.

Cheers,

-- 
  Pascal Obry /  Magny Les Hameaux (78)

  The best way to travel is by means of imagination

  http://www.obry.net

  gpg --keyserver keys.gnupg.net --recv-key F949BD3B


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Re: [darktable-user] Darktable 3.2, a short review

[jys]

On Tue, Aug 18, 2020, at 16:36, Jason Polak wrote:

> 4. Also, on the topic of filmic, it is much easier to have a properly
> saturated image now, adjusting under the "look" tab. When first
> activated, filmic does seem to crush blacks a little, but that is easily
> adjusted.

I ended up including a small offset (-0.0030) to the black level correction in 
my default auto-applied exposure preset (along with the appropriate default 
exposure boost) and let filmic set the final black point at the other end. In 
theory it should reduce the likelihood of zeros going into the pipe, I guess... 
in any case it seems to work well for me.

...and I would also echo the appreciation for the general improvements in this 
area. I'm happy with the rendering from just exposure+filmic for all but a few 
cases now. Thanks devs!

-- 
jys

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