Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-13 Thread Theodore Ts'o
On Sun, Dec 12, 2004 at 12:28:08AM +1100, Hamish Moffatt wrote:
 
 Not really. The rest of the explanation for non-US is that those
 packages weren't illegal to USE in the USA, but were illegal to
 EXPORT. We don't have a section for packages that you aren't
 allowed to have, or aren't allowed to use.

France makes it illegal to use or posses cryptography (at least at one
time, during the height of the crypto iron wall era --- Al Gore, Tear
Down This Wall!).  Yet we still shipped crypto code despite the fact
that possessession of crypto without a license could land you in jail
in France.

Saying that we won't ship code just because it might be illegal in
some random country is a very slippery slope.

- Ted




Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-12 Thread Ron Johnson
On Sun, 2004-12-12 at 02:18 +0100, Robert Millan wrote:
 On Tue, Dec 07, 2004 at 01:06:11PM +0900, Clemens Schwaighofer wrote:
   
   True, the Koran just invites to kill your ennemy bloodily, that's very
   different...
  
  Thats wrong, thats just an interpretion.
 
 I wonder how could text be written such that the question wether it invites
 to kill someone bloodily is open to interpretation.

Are there other places in the Koran that say different things?

An example from the Bible: the Old Testament says that homosexuals
must be stoned to death, but many times, it says, You shall love 
your neighbor as yourself.  The true Christian response, *IMHO*, 
would be, love the sinner, hate the sin, since ROMANS 13:9 
QUOTE 
9 For the commandments, You shall not commit adultery, You shall
not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness,
You shall not covet, and if there is any other commandment, are 
all summed up in this saying, namely, You shall love your neighbor
as yourself.
/QUOTE

But, exegesis is a thorny topic, and really shouldn't be on d-devel.

-- 
-
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson, LA USA
PGP Key ID 8834C06B I prefer encrypted mail.

There's nothing wrong with the average person that a good
psychiatrist can't exaggerate.
Toronto Star Newspaper



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Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-12 Thread Philip Charles
On Sun, 12 Dec 2004, Ron Johnson wrote:

 On Sun, 2004-12-12 at 02:18 +0100, Robert Millan wrote:
  On Tue, Dec 07, 2004 at 01:06:11PM +0900, Clemens Schwaighofer wrote:
   
True, the Koran just invites to kill your ennemy bloodily, that's very
different...
  
   Thats wrong, thats just an interpretion.
 
  I wonder how could text be written such that the question wether it invites
  to kill someone bloodily is open to interpretation.

 Are there other places in the Koran that say different things?

 An example from the Bible: the Old Testament says that homosexuals
 must be stoned to death,

Nonsence, people were to be stoned for many things, but homosexuality was
not one of them.

 But, exegesis is a thorny topic, and really shouldn't be on d-devel.

Phil.

--
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   +64 3 488 2818Fax +64 3 488 2875Mobile 025 267 9420
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] - preferred.  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-12 Thread Ron Johnson
On Sun, 2004-12-12 at 22:24 +1300, Philip Charles wrote:
 On Sun, 12 Dec 2004, Ron Johnson wrote:
 
  On Sun, 2004-12-12 at 02:18 +0100, Robert Millan wrote:
   On Tue, Dec 07, 2004 at 01:06:11PM +0900, Clemens Schwaighofer wrote:

 True, the Koran just invites to kill your ennemy bloodily, that's very
 different...
   
Thats wrong, thats just an interpretion.
  
   I wonder how could text be written such that the question wether it 
   invites
   to kill someone bloodily is open to interpretation.
 
  Are there other places in the Koran that say different things?
 
  An example from the Bible: the Old Testament says that homosexuals
  must be stoned to death,
 
 Nonsence, people were to be stoned for many things, but homosexuality was
 not one of them.

You're right.  It doesn't say stoned.  However, they shall 
surely be put to death, is, how shall we say, a superset of 
stoned to death.  Therefore, I was close enough.

  Leviticus 20
  
13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, 
  both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely 
  be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

-- 
-
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson, LA USA
PGP Key ID 8834C06B I prefer encrypted mail.

Anyone who thinks that religion is Sooo Eeevil should remember:
- The number of Soviet citizens that the religion is the opiate
of the masses Soviets killed or let starve is between 20M and
60M.
- The number of Chinese killed or allowed to starve by the
Chinese Communists is estimated to be as many as 66M.
Now *that* is True Evil.



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Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-12 Thread David Mandelberg
Ron Johnson wrote:
 On Sun, 2004-12-12 at 22:24 +1300, Philip Charles wrote:
 
On Sun, 12 Dec 2004, Ron Johnson wrote:


On Sun, 2004-12-12 at 02:18 +0100, Robert Millan wrote:

On Tue, Dec 07, 2004 at 01:06:11PM +0900, Clemens Schwaighofer wrote:

True, the Koran just invites to kill your ennemy bloodily, that's very
different...

Thats wrong, thats just an interpretion.

I wonder how could text be written such that the question wether it invites
to kill someone bloodily is open to interpretation.

Are there other places in the Koran that say different things?

An example from the Bible: the Old Testament says that homosexuals
must be stoned to death,

Nonsence, people were to be stoned for many things, but homosexuality was
not one of them.
 
 
 You're right.  It doesn't say stoned.  However, they shall 
 surely be put to death, is, how shall we say, a superset of 
 stoned to death.  Therefore, I was close enough.
 
   Leviticus 20
   
 13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, 
   both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely 
   be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
 
That's not anti-homosexual, that's anti-bisexual. as he lieth with a woman
implies that he has to lie with women the same way as with men for it to be
applicable.

-- 
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Version: 3.1
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--END GEEK CODE BLOCK--

David Mandelberg
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-11 Thread Tollef Fog Heen
* Thomas Bushnell BSG 

| That's a bad reason; if you applied it consistently you'd have to get
| rid of frozen-bubble.

everybody knows that frozen-bubble is useful for delaying Debian
releases.

-- 
Tollef Fog Heen,''`.
UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are  : :' :
  `. `' 
`-  




Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-11 Thread Ian Campbell
On Sat, 2004-12-11 at 00:13 +, Rich Walker wrote:
  It is outrageous to think that China's or Saudia Arabia's censorship
  regimes should somehow influence our decision making in the slightest.
 
 I believe the correct flame-inducing argument at this point is tell
 that to the first person tortured or executed for possessing a Debian CD
 with hot-babe on it *who was not aware it was there*.

If you live in a country with such draconian laws, then surely you ought
to make sure as a matter of course about anything that you obtain from
anywhere outside that country, regardless of the policy of the source
with regards to including things that could get you in trouble. After
all it is your life at stake.

So, even if Debian were to take the position that they aren't going to
include anything which might be illegal somewhere in the world[0] and
that they made a genuine concerted effort, in good faith, to make sure
that this was true, then I would suggest that since your life could be
at stake you ought to make pretty damn certain for yourself that the CD
isn't going to get you hung. Or perhaps you might like to trust that
responsibility to some group whose aim is to produce a Debian CD that
can safely be distributed in your country, but trusting that
responsibility to the Debian developers as a whole, when your life may
be at stake, would be pretty stupid of you. 

How many DD's do you think have the knowledge of, for example, Saudi law
(not to mention incentive, time etc) necessary to make a guarantee to a
person living in Saudi that a package won't get them hung? Crossed with
the same knowledge for China? Crossed with the next place? You'd have to
be an idiot to trust your life to those odds.

[0] which I certainly don't think it should. I agree with Thomas on this
one, it would be outrageous to pander to such countries. The fact that a
DD is willing to package and distribute something under their local laws
seem to me to imply that the package is at least safe to possess in the
reasonable countries in the world, in that they won't hang you or
otherwise throw the book at you for unwittingly possessing something
which happens to be illegal in your jurisdiction.

Ian.

-- 
Ian Campbell

When in doubt, lead trump.


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Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-11 Thread cobaco (aka Bart Cornelis)
On Saturday 11 December 2004 01:13, Rich Walker wrote:
 Thomas Bushnell BSG [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  Rich Walker [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 [3]  Non-US exists because export of strong crypto from the US is an
  illegal act in the US. Hence, Debian has already accepted that
  local laws trump idealism.

actually non-us is a good example of letting packages into Debian despite it 
being illegal in certain areas. 
As discussed elsewhere in this thread this translated nobody is against 
giving people the option of classifying packages in Debian (into 'legal in 
China', 'not legal in China', ...), and giving people the option to easily 
exclude packages in a certain category. ). Provided off course that:
the people that care about such classifications do the actual work (and not 
offload it to the rest of us)

At least one mechanism for making classifications is available (debtags), 
though a mechanism for exluding packages from mirrors/CD's based on tags 
seams currently to be missing.
-- 
Cheers, cobaco (aka Bart Cornelis)
  
1. Encrypted mail preferred (GPG KeyID: 0x86624ABB)
2. Plain-text mail recommended since I move html and double
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Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-11 Thread Hamish Moffatt
On Sat, Dec 11, 2004 at 01:24:32PM +0100, cobaco (aka Bart Cornelis) wrote:
 On Saturday 11 December 2004 01:13, Rich Walker wrote:
  Thomas Bushnell BSG [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
   Rich Walker [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  [3]  Non-US exists because export of strong crypto from the US is an
   illegal act in the US. Hence, Debian has already accepted that
   local laws trump idealism.
 
 actually non-us is a good example of letting packages into Debian despite it 
 being illegal in certain areas. 

Not really. The rest of the explanation for non-US is that those
packages weren't illegal to USE in the USA, but were illegal to
EXPORT. We don't have a section for packages that you aren't
allowed to have, or aren't allowed to use.

I'm all for omitting hot-babe just because it's more cruft.
How many CPU monitors can we possibly use? I'm not too concerned
about where it's legal for adults to use it.

Hamish
-- 
Hamish Moffatt VK3SB [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]




Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-11 Thread cobaco (aka Bart Cornelis)
On Saturday 11 December 2004 14:28, Hamish Moffatt wrote:
 On Sat, Dec 11, 2004 at 01:24:32PM +0100, cobaco (aka Bart Cornelis) 
wrote:
  On Saturday 11 December 2004 01:13, Rich Walker wrote:
   Thomas Bushnell BSG [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Rich Walker [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  
   [3]  Non-US exists because export of strong crypto from the US is an
illegal act in the US. Hence, Debian has already accepted that
local laws trump idealism.
 
  actually non-us is a good example of letting packages into Debian
  despite it being illegal in certain areas.

 Not really. The rest of the explanation for non-US is that those
 packages weren't illegal to USE in the USA, but were illegal to
 EXPORT. We don't have a section for packages that you aren't
 allowed to have, or aren't allowed to use.
point taken, make that: 
non-us is a good example of letting packages into Debian
in a way that avoids it trumping local laws.

- if it's illegal to ofer it on some-site don't offer it there, but keep 
it elsewhere

 I'm all for omitting hot-babe just because it's more cruft.
 How many CPU monitors can we possibly use? I'm not too concerned
 about where it's legal for adults to use it.
If we have a DD wanting to package and mantain some cpu-monitor, then we 
obviously have at least 1 person who:
1) thinks the package is worthwhile
2) is willing to do the work to support it as part  of Debian

Given that on what basis do we decide which cpu-monitors[1] meeting the 
above we allow in, and which we don't? First x of any category are allowed, 
is not a good solution IMHO (and definately less then ideal).

Moreover why should we decide any such thing? Why should we not offer 
software for which some DD meets 2) above? It simply gives our users more 
options, which (IMHO) is a good thing. 

[1] or text-editors, or MTA's. or ...
-- 
Cheers, cobaco (aka Bart Cornelis)
  
1. Encrypted mail preferred (GPG KeyID: 0x86624ABB)
2. Plain-text mail recommended since I move html and double
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Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-11 Thread ajax
On Fri, 2004-12-10 at 17:07 +0100, Wouter Verhelst wrote:
 Op vr, 10-12-2004 te 15:38 +, schreef Will Newton:

  Do you see why it seems like Debian is more of a political talking shop 
  that a 
  team trying to develop an operating system?
 
 Debian has always been a political organization; if we weren't, we
 wouldn't be anything called 'DFSG'.
 

If you two don't mind, I'd like to add this to a future signature file.




Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-11 Thread Robert Millan
On Thu, Dec 02, 2004 at 08:03:42AM +, Helen Faulkner wrote:
 
 Yes, you are being absurd.  Since you are presumably not understanding the 
 point, let me explain more clearly:
 
 Pornography is widely regarded as being demeaning and insulting to women.

The female body is beautiful.  Why would drawing/displaying a picture of a
woman be insulting to anyone?

-- 
 .''`.   Proudly running Debian GNU/kFreeBSD unstable/unreleased (on UFS2+S)
: :' :
`. `'http://www.debian.org/ports/kfreebsd-gnu
  `-




Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-11 Thread Robert Millan
On Tue, Dec 07, 2004 at 01:06:11PM +0900, Clemens Schwaighofer wrote:
  
  True, the Koran just invites to kill your ennemy bloodily, that's very
  different...
 
 Thats wrong, thats just an interpretion.

I wonder how could text be written such that the question wether it invites
to kill someone bloodily is open to interpretation.

-- 
 .''`.   Proudly running Debian GNU/kFreeBSD unstable/unreleased (on UFS2+S)
: :' :
`. `'http://www.debian.org/ports/kfreebsd-gnu
  `-




Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-11 Thread Robert Millan
On Fri, Dec 03, 2004 at 03:45:23AM +0100, Tollef Fog Heen wrote:
 * John Hasler 
 
 | William Ballard writes:
 |  The Bible should be in Debian.  But the Koran, the Torah, and the Vishnu
 |  texts (name escapes me at the moment) should all be in there too.
 | 
 | Debian is not Project Gutenberg.  Debian is about _software_.
 
 But the recent GR clarified that data is also software.

To be exact, it stated that we don't care wether data is software, as long as
it's free.

-- 
 .''`.   Proudly running Debian GNU/kFreeBSD unstable/unreleased (on UFS2+S)
: :' :
`. `'http://www.debian.org/ports/kfreebsd-gnu
  `-




Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-10 Thread Russell Coker
On Thursday 09 December 2004 14:06, Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 You're coming very late to the conversation.  A District
 Attorney angling for higher office or someone in the Morality
 Police (think Saudi Arabia) or a petty member of the CCP might not
 care about there will be conflicts like this.

Let's forget about Saudi law.  Saudi law is something for people who live 
there to worry about not for those of us who live in the free world.

-- 
http://www.coker.com.au/selinux/   My NSA Security Enhanced Linux packages
http://www.coker.com.au/bonnie++/  Bonnie++ hard drive benchmark
http://www.coker.com.au/postal/Postal SMTP/POP benchmark
http://www.coker.com.au/~russell/  My home page




Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-10 Thread Ron Johnson
On Fri, 2004-12-10 at 22:48 +1100, Russell Coker wrote:
 On Thursday 09 December 2004 14:06, Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  You're coming very late to the conversation.  A District
  Attorney angling for higher office or someone in the Morality
  Police (think Saudi Arabia) or a petty member of the CCP might not
  care about there will be conflicts like this.
 
 Let's forget about Saudi law.  Saudi law is something for people who live 
 there to worry about not for those of us who live in the free world.

It is. if we want people in Arabia to be able to possess Debian 
disks.

-- 
-
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson, LA USA
PGP Key ID 8834C06B I prefer encrypted mail.

Pacifism can act more effectively against democracy than for
it.
George Orwell, 1941



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Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-10 Thread Thomas Bushnell BSG
Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 It is. if we want people in Arabia to be able to possess Debian 
 disks.

The solution to censorious regimes is not to say, well, ok, we'll
censor ourselves so you don't even have to bother.




Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-10 Thread Will Newton
On Friday 10 Dec 2004 15:13, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote:
 Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  It is. if we want people in Arabia to be able to possess Debian
  disks.

 The solution to censorious regimes is not to say, well, ok, we'll
 censor ourselves so you don't even have to bother.

Which is a fine point of view if you are making a political point. But as far 
as I am aware we are trying to make an operating system.




Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-10 Thread Wouter Verhelst
Op vr, 10-12-2004 te 15:22 +, schreef Will Newton:
 On Friday 10 Dec 2004 15:13, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote:
  Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
   It is. if we want people in Arabia to be able to possess Debian
   disks.
 
  The solution to censorious regimes is not to say, well, ok, we'll
  censor ourselves so you don't even have to bother.
 
 Which is a fine point of view if you are making a political point. But as far 
 as I am aware we are trying to make an operating system.

Sure. So we should not censor ourselves.

-- 
 EARTH
 smog  |   bricks
 AIR  --  mud  -- FIRE
soda water |   tequila
 WATER
 -- with thanks to fortune




Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-10 Thread Will Newton
On Friday 10 Dec 2004 15:24, Wouter Verhelst wrote:

  Which is a fine point of view if you are making a political point. But as
  far as I am aware we are trying to make an operating system.

 Sure. So we should not censor ourselves.

I don't see how that follows from what I said.


Here's a couple of examples:

We don't agree with censorship, so anything packageable goes in the 
distribution. This means we have a number of worthless and crufty packages 
that no-one uses and our time to release is getting ever longer. We also end 
up with packages that offend many people and may even cause legal problems 
for our distributors.

We clarify the DFSG just prior to an intended release and nearly derail the 
whole release in the process.

We are soon to refuse to ship binary firmware blobs when the writing is quite 
clearly on the wall that this is going to be something more and more people 
will have to deal with in the years to come.


Do you see why it seems like Debian is more of a political talking shop that a 
team trying to develop an operating system?

I don't want to start a flame war and I will probably not reply to this thread 
any longer, but the latest discussions on debian-devel have pushed me to the 
edge of resigning from this project.




Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-10 Thread Wouter Verhelst
Op vr, 10-12-2004 te 15:38 +, schreef Will Newton:
 On Friday 10 Dec 2004 15:24, Wouter Verhelst wrote:
   Which is a fine point of view if you are making a political point. But as
   far as I am aware we are trying to make an operating system.
 
  Sure. So we should not censor ourselves.
 
 I don't see how that follows from what I said.

Censoring is done by people who try to make a political point. Creating
an operating system involves throwing a pile of software together,
integrate it, remove any and all bugs you find, and release that. It
does not involve censoring.

In Debian's case, we censor only based on the question whether a package
is DFSG-free, nothing else. It would be wrong to act otherwise.

 Here's a couple of examples:
 
 We don't agree with censorship, so anything packageable goes in the 
 distribution.

That is currently not the case. There are four requirements for a
package to be in main, and these are clearly spelled out in policy: they
need to be DFSG-free, they must not depend on software out of main, they
need to be not so buggy that we refuse to support them, and they need to
be policy-compliant.

 This means we have a number of worthless and crufty packages 
 that no-one uses and our time to release is getting ever longer.

Packages that are worthless, crufty, unused, and unmaintained are
routinely being removed from the archive.

 We also end 
 up with packages that offend many people and may even cause legal problems 
 for our distributors.

Have you taken a look at what hot-babe actually looks like? I suspect
you haven't. I don't think it will offend anyone.

[...]
 Do you see why it seems like Debian is more of a political talking shop that 
 a 
 team trying to develop an operating system?

Debian has always been a political organization; if we weren't, we
wouldn't be anything called 'DFSG'.

-- 
 EARTH
 smog  |   bricks
 AIR  --  mud  -- FIRE
soda water |   tequila
 WATER
 -- with thanks to fortune




Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-10 Thread Will Newton
On Friday 10 Dec 2004 16:07, Wouter Verhelst wrote:

 Have you taken a look at what hot-babe actually looks like? I suspect
 you haven't. I don't think it will offend anyone.

I have looked at it. And I don't think it is an acceptable thing to ship as 
part of an operating system. I am an atheist and a liberal but the majority 
of people in the world are not.




Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-10 Thread David Pashley
On Dec 10, 2004 at 16:30, Will Newton praised the llamas by saying:
 I have looked at it. And I don't think it is an acceptable thing to ship as 
 part of an operating system. I am an atheist and a liberal but the majority 
 of people in the world are not.

I don't think it is an acceptable thing to ship as it has no use.

-- 
David Pashley
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione.




Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-10 Thread Andreas Rottmann
David Pashley [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 On Dec 10, 2004 at 16:30, Will Newton praised the llamas by saying:
 I have looked at it. And I don't think it is an acceptable thing to ship as 
 part of an operating system. I am an atheist and a liberal but the majority 
 of people in the world are not.

 I don't think it is an acceptable thing to ship as it has no use.

Well, I tried hot-babe and it was a bit amusing for a minute or two,
but I personally don't find it useful/amusing enough seeing any need
for it. If, on the other hand, someone finds it useful aneough to
package and maintain it, and there are a few other users interested in
running it, well I can't really say anything against it. Usefulness is
a subjective thing.

Rotty
-- 
Andreas Rottmann | [EMAIL PROTECTED]  | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | [EMAIL 
PROTECTED]
http://yi.org/rotty  | GnuPG Key: http://yi.org/rotty/gpg.asc
Fingerprint  | DFB4 4EB4 78A4 5EEE 6219  F228 F92F CFC5 01FD 5B62

Any technology not indistinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.
   -- Terry Pratchett




Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-10 Thread Thomas Bushnell BSG
Will Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 On Friday 10 Dec 2004 15:24, Wouter Verhelst wrote:
 
   Which is a fine point of view if you are making a political point. But as
   far as I am aware we are trying to make an operating system.
 
  Sure. So we should not censor ourselves.
 
 I don't see how that follows from what I said.

This way: we will not submit to the decision of the Saudi Arabian or
Chinese governments about what is and is not important to an operating
system.  




Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-10 Thread Thomas Bushnell BSG
David Pashley [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 On Dec 10, 2004 at 16:30, Will Newton praised the llamas by saying:
  I have looked at it. And I don't think it is an acceptable thing
  to ship as part of an operating system. I am an atheist and a
  liberal but the majority of people in the world are not.
 
 I don't think it is an acceptable thing to ship as it has no use.

That's a bad reason; if you applied it consistently you'd have to get
rid of frozen-bubble.




Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-10 Thread Rich Walker
Thomas Bushnell BSG [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 David Pashley [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 On Dec 10, 2004 at 16:30, Will Newton praised the llamas by saying:
  I have looked at it. And I don't think it is an acceptable thing
  to ship as part of an operating system. I am an atheist and a
  liberal but the majority of people in the world are not.
 
 I don't think it is an acceptable thing to ship as it has no use.

 That's a bad reason; if you applied it consistently you'd have to get
 rid of frozen-bubble.

Though you could try the following set of criteria:

1. Are there already similar packages in Debian? NO - okay, add.

2. Does it offer significant *technical* advantages over those packages?
   YES - okay, add.

3. Are any of those other similar packages poorly maintained? YES -
   don't add another until the others are cleaned up or removed - so
   don't add

4. Hairsplitting time - is there likelihood that adding it will cause
   grave distress to some proportion of the target market? NO - don't
   add.

Default: then add it.


Since there are a *lot* of CPU monitors, and a finite number of
developers, and I'm sure at least one CPU monitor needs more
maintenance, and wmbubblemon does the same job better, why add another?

cheers, Rich.

-- 
rich walker |  Shadow Robot Company | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
technical director 251 Liverpool Road   |
need a Hand?   London  N1 1LX   | +UK 20 7700 2487
www.shadow.org.uk/products/newhand.shtml




Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-10 Thread Thomas Bushnell BSG
Rich Walker [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Though you could try the following set of criteria:

We could have all kinds of criteria.  The ones you propose are not, in
fact, our criteria.  Our criteria are something like:

1. Does the license meet the DFSG?
2. Is there a Debian maintainer willing to maintain or sponsor the
   package?

Now, you might want a different set of criteria, in which case, please
suggest them in the proper forum, which is not here.

My concern is that Saudi Arabia and China don't get to tell us what
our criteria are, and I would oppose any criterion that amounts to
give China a veto.  Your proposal allows China a veto in some cases,
and this makes it unreasonable to me.

It is outrageous to think that China's or Saudia Arabia's censorship
regimes should somehow influence our decision making in the slightest.

Thomas




Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-10 Thread Rich Walker
Thomas Bushnell BSG [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Rich Walker [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Though you could try the following set of criteria:

[I added these back in for the sake of clarity]

1. Are there already similar packages in Debian? NO - okay, add.

2. Does it offer significant *technical* advantages over those packages?
   YES - okay, add.

3. Are any of those other similar packages poorly maintained? YES -
   don't add another until the others are cleaned up or removed - so
   don't add

4. Hairsplitting time - is there likelihood that adding it will cause
   grave distress to some proportion of the target market? NO - don't
   add.

Default: then add it.


 We could have all kinds of criteria.  The ones you propose are not, in
 fact, our criteria.  Our criteria are something like:

 1. Does the license meet the DFSG?
 2. Is there a Debian maintainer willing to maintain or sponsor the
package?


These are givens. I know this. It can't move from valid-ITP to package
without this.


 Now, you might want a different set of criteria, in which case, please
 suggest them in the proper forum, which is not here.

Actually, I don't want a different set of criteria. As a user, I am
concerned that Debian is in danger of having a thousand CPU
monitors[1] all with RC bugs. A process for restricting addition of
semi-duplicate packages might reduce workloads all round, and improve
quality of installed packages.

 My concern is that Saudi Arabia and China don't get to tell us what
 our criteria are, and I would oppose any criterion that amounts to
 give China a veto.  Your proposal allows China a veto in some cases,
 and this makes it unreasonable to me.

Not quite. I simply suggest that *in the absence of any technical reason
why*, and *in the presence of a social reason why not*, it would be
polite to adopt why not. 

That social reason might be I can get tortured for possessing this and
it might be pornview is tacky as a package name - come[2] up with a
better one or just I believe this license isn't DFSG-free.

Of course, the fact that the package under discussion can make
possession of a Debian CD illegal in certain countries[3] trumps either
of our arguments.

 It is outrageous to think that China's or Saudia Arabia's censorship
 regimes should somehow influence our decision making in the slightest.

I believe the correct flame-inducing argument at this point is tell
that to the first person tortured or executed for possessing a Debian CD
with hot-babe on it *who was not aware it was there*.

Testimony elsewhere in this thread suggests that *possession* in those
countries is a capital crime, with or without knowledge.

This would seem to make adding this package a breach of the Social
Contract, clause 4. Getting your users executed un-necessarily is, it's
true, a very idealist thing to do, but I can't see everyone signing up
to it.



cheers, Rich.





Footnotes: 
[1]  Or any other common package type. Editors. MP3 players. Playlist
 managers. RSS feed agglomeraters. Xbiff clones. 

[2]  For my English readers - I did that on purpose

[3]  Non-US exists because export of strong crypto from the US is an
 illegal act in the US. Hence, Debian has already accepted that
 local laws trump idealism.

-- 
rich walker |  Shadow Robot Company | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
technical director 251 Liverpool Road   |
need a Hand?   London  N1 1LX   | +UK 20 7700 2487
www.shadow.org.uk/products/newhand.shtml




Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-10 Thread Thomas Bushnell BSG
Rich Walker [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Actually, I don't want a different set of criteria. As a user, I am
 concerned that Debian is in danger of having a thousand CPU
 monitors[1] all with RC bugs. A process for restricting addition of
 semi-duplicate packages might reduce workloads all round, and improve
 quality of installed packages.

That's not a problem for our procedures.  Optional packages with RC
bugs do not hold up the release; they simply get dropped.

  My concern is that Saudi Arabia and China don't get to tell us what
  our criteria are, and I would oppose any criterion that amounts to
  give China a veto.  Your proposal allows China a veto in some cases,
  and this makes it unreasonable to me.
 
 Not quite. I simply suggest that *in the absence of any technical reason
 why*, and *in the presence of a social reason why not*, it would be
 polite to adopt why not. 

Your proposal gives China a veto *in some cases*.  I think it should
get a veto *in no cases*.  Regardless, the discussion belongs on
debian-project. 

Thomas




Re: Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-09 Thread Hamish Moffatt
On Wed, Dec 08, 2004 at 01:34:58PM -0800, Scott Robinson wrote:
 As long as Debian is a distribution - a precomposed packaging of as much
 software as possible - then there will be conflicts like this.

Perhaps that's the crux of the problem - an emphasis on quantity
rather than quality.

Hamish
-- 
Hamish Moffatt VK3SB [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]




Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-08 Thread Russell Coker
On Wednesday 08 December 2004 07:42, Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:
   Fortunately, though, pictures of naked dogs are *not* considered
   to be appealing to prurient interests.  Unless, *maybe*, a hyper-
   horny 13 year old boy is seeing a picture of dogs copulating, and
   not in the context of some scientific value, i.e., a text book.
   Even in that case, though, the boy would probably be told to wash
   his hand and stop being a pervert.
 
  So you have no objections to bestiality web sites then?

 How does a picture of dogs copulating get morphed into bestiality?

When such pictures appear on porn sites they are presumably used in the same 
manner as other porn (not for scientific or artistic purposes).

I haven't actually seen a picture of two dogs copulating on a bestiality site 
(when it was my job to kill such sites I just looked at the front page which 
was usually enough to determine whether it met the non-commercial criteria).  
I have seen pictures of dogs genitals on bestiality sites that were not in 
any way connected to humans.

 Are you are purposefully misinterpreting what I wrote?

When you give an example of a boy needing to wash his hands after seeing a 
picture of dogs copulating you are obviously referring to dog-copulation 
porn pictures.  I was interpreting it in EXACTLY the same way as you.

-- 
http://www.coker.com.au/selinux/   My NSA Security Enhanced Linux packages
http://www.coker.com.au/bonnie++/  Bonnie++ hard drive benchmark
http://www.coker.com.au/postal/Postal SMTP/POP benchmark
http://www.coker.com.au/~russell/  My home page




Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-08 Thread Ron Johnson
On Wed, 2004-12-08 at 19:57 +1100, Russell Coker wrote:
 On Wednesday 08 December 2004 07:42, Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
Fortunately, though, pictures of naked dogs are *not* considered
to be appealing to prurient interests.  Unless, *maybe*, a hyper-
horny 13 year old boy is seeing a picture of dogs copulating, and
not in the context of some scientific value, i.e., a text book.
Even in that case, though, the boy would probably be told to wash
his hand and stop being a pervert.
  
   So you have no objections to bestiality web sites then?
 
  How does a picture of dogs copulating get morphed into bestiality?
 
 When such pictures appear on porn sites they are presumably used in the same 
 manner as other porn (not for scientific or artistic purposes).
[snip]
 
  Are you are purposefully misinterpreting what I wrote?
 
 When you give an example of a boy needing to wash his hands after seeing a 
 picture of dogs copulating you are obviously referring to dog-copulation 
 porn pictures.  I was interpreting it in EXACTLY the same way as you.

But still, a picture of dogs copulating is *not* bestiality,
and I never inferred that the picture would be on a porn site 
(there's more to life than than the internet, after all), so I'm
confused as to made the leap.

-- 
-
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson, LA USA
PGP Key ID 8834C06B I prefer encrypted mail.

If you wish for peace be ready for war.
Proverb
To be prepared for war is one of the most effective means of
preserving peace.
George Washington



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Re: Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-08 Thread Scott Robinson
 If my wife saw my son with these pictures on a disk that I gave him, she'd
 take a frying pan and beat me dead.

And what would she say about any number of other iffy packages?

bible-kjv? Probably nothing because it isn't offensive to her.
fortunes-off? Because hot-babe uses graphics it's worse?

As long as Debian is a distribution - a precomposed packaging of as much
software as possible - then there will be conflicts like this.

Scott.

-- 
http://quadhome.com/- Personal webpage


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Re: Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-08 Thread Ron Johnson
On Wed, 2004-12-08 at 13:34 -0800, Scott Robinson wrote:
  If my wife saw my son with these pictures on a disk that I gave him, she'd
  take a frying pan and beat me dead.
 
 And what would she say about any number of other iffy packages?
 
 bible-kjv? Probably nothing because it isn't offensive to her.
 fortunes-off? Because hot-babe uses graphics it's worse?

Definitely fortunes-off, too.

 As long as Debian is a distribution - a precomposed packaging of as much
 software as possible - then there will be conflicts like this.

You're coming very late to the conversation.  A District
Attorney angling for higher office or someone in the Morality
Police (think Saudi Arabia) or a petty member of the CCP might not
care about there will be conflicts like this.

-- 
-
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson, LA USA
PGP Key ID 8834C06B I prefer encrypted mail.

I'll call you women instead of girls, just so long as I get paid
more than you do.
Tom Lehrer



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Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-07 Thread Russell Coker
On Tuesday 07 December 2004 11:22, Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Tue, 2004-12-07 at 10:01 +1100, Brian May wrote:
  So are you saying I should take my web pages of my naked dogs down?

 Depends on who's prurient interests are appealed to by your naked
 dogs.

 Fortunately, though, pictures of naked dogs are *not* considered
 to be appealing to prurient interests.  Unless, *maybe*, a hyper-
 horny 13 year old boy is seeing a picture of dogs copulating, and
 not in the context of some scientific value, i.e., a text book.
 Even in that case, though, the boy would probably be told to wash
 his hand and stop being a pervert.

So you have no objections to bestiality web sites then?

Some years ago a server in Amsterdam that I was running was overloaded due to 
thousands of downloads per hour of a bestiality AVI.  I removed the site due 
to technical reasons (the entire ISP ran slow because of all the bestiality 
downloads).

The same server had the same problem with pictures of Britney Spears, should I 
have removed the Britney pictures because they were obscene (no prises for 
guessing what they were used for) but left the animal sex pictures?

-- 
http://www.coker.com.au/selinux/   My NSA Security Enhanced Linux packages
http://www.coker.com.au/bonnie++/  Bonnie++ hard drive benchmark
http://www.coker.com.au/postal/Postal SMTP/POP benchmark
http://www.coker.com.au/~russell/  My home page




Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-07 Thread Frank Küster
Russell Coker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 On Tuesday 07 December 2004 11:22, Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Fortunately, though, pictures of naked dogs are *not* considered
 to be appealing to prurient interests.  Unless, *maybe*, a hyper-
 horny 13 year old boy is seeing a picture of dogs copulating, and
 not in the context of some scientific value, i.e., a text book.
 Even in that case, though, the boy would probably be told to wash
 his hand and stop being a pervert.

 So you have no objections to bestiality web sites then?

 Some years ago a server in Amsterdam that I was running was overloaded due to 
 thousands of downloads per hour of a bestiality AVI.  I removed the site due 
 to technical reasons (the entire ISP ran slow because of all the bestiality 
 downloads).

Did this AVI really show dogs copulating with each other (not pervert
humans with a dog)? And people downloaded this in masses? The world is
strange.

Bye, Frank
-- 
Frank Küster
Inst. f. Biochemie der Univ. Zürich
Debian Developer




Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-07 Thread Russell Coker
On Wednesday 08 December 2004 01:09, Frank Küster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Fortunately, though, pictures of naked dogs are *not* considered
  to be appealing to prurient interests.  Unless, *maybe*, a hyper-
  horny 13 year old boy is seeing a picture of dogs copulating, and
  not in the context of some scientific value, i.e., a text book.
  Even in that case, though, the boy would probably be told to wash
  his hand and stop being a pervert.
 
  So you have no objections to bestiality web sites then?
 
  Some years ago a server in Amsterdam that I was running was overloaded
  due to thousands of downloads per hour of a bestiality AVI.  I removed
  the site due to technical reasons (the entire ISP ran slow because of all
  the bestiality downloads).

 Did this AVI really show dogs copulating with each other (not pervert
 humans with a dog)? And people downloaded this in masses? The world is
 strange.

It involved a donkey.  As far as I recall not enough of the woman was visible 
to be regarded as porn if it wasn't for what she was doing with the donkey.  
But my recollection isn't particularly clear and I never looked at it too 
closely.

The only reason I watched it is that I forced every manager in the area to 
watch it in it's entirity to try and force them to give me permission to 
delete it (I am still surprised that so many managers were prepared to watch 
that AVI right through instead of granting me permission to delete it).

Bestiality is legal in the Netherlands so I had to establish a new company 
policy on deleting commercial web sites that caused too much traffic and cost 
too much.  It was a free web server - people who want to run commercial porn 
sites are supposed to pay for their bandwidth.


Americans want to be moral so they ban hard-core porn.  So the hard-core porn 
sites get run in places like the Netherlands and cater to an American 
audience.  Americans then say that people who live in the Netherlands are 
perverted because they allow Americans to do what they want and make money 
from it.  The world is indeed strange.

-- 
http://www.coker.com.au/selinux/   My NSA Security Enhanced Linux packages
http://www.coker.com.au/bonnie++/  Bonnie++ hard drive benchmark
http://www.coker.com.au/postal/Postal SMTP/POP benchmark
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Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-07 Thread Andrew Suffield
On Mon, Dec 06, 2004 at 09:25:31PM +0100, Andrea Bedini wrote:
 Il giorno lun, 06-12-2004 alle 01:49 +, Andrew Suffield ha scritto:
  Word games. Censorship is when a citizen of one body chooses to have
  that body distribute something (by being a citizen and distributing
  it), and another citizen tries to stop them.
 
 This is not the case: one member of a community chooses to do something
 on which community doesn't agree. So community decides to not follow his
 member and *let him do what he wants by his own*. Debian should not do
 everything a single developer wants to do; as a community we have to
 find a general consensus on our policy.

That's censorship. Know what you're advocating, and consider its
implications.

-- 
  .''`.  ** Debian GNU/Linux ** | Andrew Suffield
 : :' :  http://www.debian.org/ |
 `. `'  |
   `- --  |


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Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-07 Thread Andrew Suffield
On Mon, Dec 06, 2004 at 04:51:59AM -0800, Steve Langasek wrote:
  Editing would be if the maintainer decided to remove the
  package. Censorship is when some other developer tries to force him.
 
 If an ftp-master in the course of doing the work of processing NEW rejects
 a package, or a member of the release team in the course of doing the work
 of preparing the next stable release excludes a package from consideration,
 is this editing, or is it censorship?

snip

All of those things could be either. It is precisely because the
boundaries are not clear that we must stay away from them. That's the
reason why everybody who starts down the path of censorship ends up in
the same place.

 It's extremely frustrating to see so many words spent on the notion of
 censorship here.  At the end of the day, Debian, *as an organization*,
 has the right (and responsibility) to decide what it publishes on behalf of
 its member developers, and doing so is *not* *censorship*.

It can be. In the proposed scenario it would be.

 And it's no wonder that Debian is slow to release when people are criticized
 on public lists for showing an interest in the contents and quality of
 packages that aren't theirs; for daring to ask the question, is this
 something that Debian needs?

Nobody in this thread has seriously asked that question.

 This discussion shouldn't be about censorship, or other forms of coercion;

Aye, but it is, and that line of thinking needs to be stopped while we
still can. Frankly the package is irrelevant to this discussion, and
the subject line is misleading.

 And contrary to much of
 the rhetoric in this thread, it is possible to think a package like hot-babe
 is a bad idea without wanting to be set up as a censor for all ideas they
 disagree with.

However, it's extremely unlikely that it is possible to ban it for
that reason without going down that path. There's a significant
difference between thinking something is a bad idea and trying to stop
it.

-- 
  .''`.  ** Debian GNU/Linux ** | Andrew Suffield
 : :' :  http://www.debian.org/ |
 `. `'  |
   `- --  |


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Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-07 Thread Manoj Srivastava
On Mon, 6 Dec 2004 10:32:14 +, Will Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: 

 On Monday 06 Dec 2004 10:01, Andrew Suffield wrote:
 The difference being that editing is a choice made by the person
 doing the work, while censorship is a choice made by an otherwise
 unrelated person in the same organisation.
 
 Editing would be if the maintainer decided to remove the
 package. Censorship is when some other developer tries to force
 him.

 I don't think this holds. Censoring is editing for ideological
 reasons, which is a subset of editing. It has nothing to do with who
 does it. A censor is a third party, and editor is a third party, at
 least in literary terms.

Is removing legal material to protect the viewer from material
 that is deemed ideologically inappropriate by some considered 
 editing for ideological reasons?

manoj
-- 
Like all women, she believed that rest and pleasure were bad for
men. Fritz Leiber, _Swords and Ice Magic_
Manoj Srivastava   [EMAIL PROTECTED]  http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/
1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B  924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C




Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-07 Thread Ron Johnson
On Tue, 2004-12-07 at 20:31 +1100, Russell Coker wrote:
 On Tuesday 07 December 2004 11:22, Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  On Tue, 2004-12-07 at 10:01 +1100, Brian May wrote:
   So are you saying I should take my web pages of my naked dogs down?
 
  Depends on who's prurient interests are appealed to by your naked
  dogs.
 
  Fortunately, though, pictures of naked dogs are *not* considered
  to be appealing to prurient interests.  Unless, *maybe*, a hyper-
  horny 13 year old boy is seeing a picture of dogs copulating, and
  not in the context of some scientific value, i.e., a text book.
  Even in that case, though, the boy would probably be told to wash
  his hand and stop being a pervert.
 
 So you have no objections to bestiality web sites then?

How does a picture of dogs copulating get morphed into bestiality?

Are you are purposefully misinterpreting what I wrote?

[snip]

-- 
-
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson, LA USA
PGP Key ID 8834C06B I prefer encrypted mail.

Fear the Penguin!!



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Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-07 Thread Will Newton
On Tuesday 07 Dec 2004 20:26, Manoj Srivastava wrote:

  I don't think this holds. Censoring is editing for ideological
  reasons, which is a subset of editing. It has nothing to do with who
  does it. A censor is a third party, and editor is a third party, at
  least in literary terms.

  Is removing legal material to protect the viewer from material
  that is deemed ideologically inappropriate by some considered 
  editing for ideological reasons?

It may well be, it could also be editing in the interests of practicality. 

I'm not interested in sophistry. If you want to call it censorship call it 
that, I don't mind. But be aware that it is an emotionally charged word and 
using it pretty much destroys any chance of a reasoned debate.




Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-07 Thread Thomas Bushnell BSG
Russell Coker [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 So you have no objections to bestiality web sites then?

The assumption here is that one must either have no objections, or
else have objections and then proceed to object and want things
removed.  Perhaps I have misunderstood you, but there are many who
hold such a view even if you do not, so it's worth addressing.

I do have objections to hot-babe.  I think it's degrading to people I
care about.  So I wouldn't package it.

But that does *not* mean that I think nobody should be allowed to; my
primary concern with respect to Debian is that we follow our actual
policies, and if people want a new policy, they should make it the
usual way.

Debian can choose to publish hot-babe or not; either way I don't care
much about it, except that I would not be willing to package it
myself.

Please don't paint me in a corner by saying that if someone is against
prohibiting a package, it must be because they have no objections to
it.

As Manoj has pointed out, many of us have objections to vi also.

Thomas




Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-07 Thread Andrea Bedini
Il giorno mar, 07-12-2004 alle 18:37 +, Andrew Suffield ha scritto: 
  This is not the case: one member of a community chooses to do something
  on which community doesn't agree. So community decides to not follow his
  member and *let him do what he wants by his own*. Debian should not do
  everything a single developer wants to do; as a community we have to
  find a general consensus on our policy.
 
 That's censorship. Know what you're advocating, and consider its
 implications.

First: You need to understand that nobody stop you to do anything by
your own. Make your debs and put in your homepage, take your
responsibilities it's ok. This does not imply I can't press our
community to exclude distributing that package (we've done the same
thing in other cases)

Second: Please justify what you say when reply.

2 again.






Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-06 Thread Brian May
 Russell == Russell Coker [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Russell As an example see some of the books of advice for
Russell pregnant women.  They have LOTS of photos of nudity
Russell including nipples and public hair.  Women seem to buy
Russell such books in quantity.

From time to time they even have naked photos on broadcasted shows
too. Sorry, I can't remember all the ratings now.  I suspect one show
was G (General), or similar (science show aimed at teenagers).

What is scary is that I have all these nude photos on my website of
some friends. Included is one bitch (hmmm... should include the other
bitch sometime). No, I am not swearing (see dictionary reference for
bitch if you are uncertain; in particular, see the K9
version). Should my website get censored? The subjects in question
don't mind or understand...

I think the issue, for the general case (some cultures may be
different), isn't so much seeing the naked body is bad, rather,
seeing pictures that present the body as a sex item is seen as bad.
There is a fine line between the two, people will have different
opinions.
-- 
Brian May [EMAIL PROTECTED]




Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-06 Thread Ron Johnson
On Mon, 2004-12-06 at 16:55 +1100, Matthew Palmer wrote:
 On Sun, Dec 05, 2004 at 09:53:00PM -0800, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote:
  Matthew Palmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  
Also, to the best my knowledge the kernel doesn't contain any pictures
of naked people either. I might be mistaken.
   
   It does have language which qualifies as obscene.
  
  Not in the United States, at least, where obscene, as a matter of
  constitutional law, cannot describe text.
 
 Pfft, constitution.  Like that'll ever hold up in court.

Free Speech is not an absolute.

For example, in most all of the US, if someone (especially an adult
or teenager) yells out, Fuck you! in a playground full of younger
children, and a policeman is nearby, the Sayer Of Foul Language 
could easily be hauled off.  

Circumstances that would make the Sayer more likely to be carted
off would be the attitude of the policeman, whether a parent
complains, or whether the yell was a one time offense, or whether
it's a constant stream of off-color crudity.

There was a case last year where a group of adults were floating
down a river, making a constant, loud stream of crude comments.  
Just downstream was a couple of families with young children.  A
parent video-taped the scene, found a local sheriff, and the off-
enders were arrested.  The convictions were held up on appeal.

-- 
-
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson, LA USA
PGP Key ID 8834C06B I prefer encrypted mail.

Sometime they'll give a war and nobody will come.
Carl Sandburg
Oh, come on. Sure they will. That's what testosterone is for...



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Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-06 Thread Miros/law Baran
6.12.2004 pisze Brian May ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):

[...]

 Also, to the best my knowledge the kernel doesn't contain any pictures
 of naked people either. I might be mistaken.

It is much, much worse. There is a picture of naked animal there.

Jubal

-- 
[ Miros/law L Baran, baran-at-knm-org-pl, neg IQ, cert AI ] [ 0101010 is ]
[ BOF2510053411, makabra.knm.org.pl/~baran/, alchemy pany ] [ The Answer ] 

   ,,Freund, es ist auch genug. Im Fall du mehr willst lesen,
 so geh und werde selbst die Schrift und selbst das Wesen.''
 (Angelus Silesius)




Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-06 Thread Ron Johnson
On Mon, 2004-12-06 at 16:57 +1100, Brian May wrote:
  Russell == Russell Coker [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
 Russell As an example see some of the books of advice for
 Russell pregnant women.  They have LOTS of photos of nudity
 Russell including nipples and public hair.  Women seem to buy
 Russell such books in quantity.
 
 From time to time they even have naked photos on broadcasted shows
 too. Sorry, I can't remember all the ratings now.  I suspect one show
 was G (General), or similar (science show aimed at teenagers).
 
 What is scary is that I have all these nude photos on my website of
 some friends. Included is one bitch (hmmm... should include the other
 bitch sometime). No, I am not swearing (see dictionary reference for
 bitch if you are uncertain; in particular, see the K9
 version). Should my website get censored? The subjects in question
 don't mind or understand...
 
 I think the issue, for the general case (some cultures may be
 different), isn't so much seeing the naked body is bad, rather,
 seeing pictures that present the body as a sex item is seen as bad.
 There is a fine line between the two, people will have different
 opinions.

If you are presenting pictures that appeal to the prurient interest
and lacks serious literary, artistic, political or scientific value,
then you very well might be violating your ISP's AUP.

-- 
-
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson, LA USA
PGP Key ID 8834C06B I prefer encrypted mail.

In America, only the successful writer is important, in France
all writers are important, in England no writer is important, and
in Australia you have to explain what a writer is.
Geoffrey Cottrell



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Re: Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-06 Thread Mike Hommey
On Sun, Dec 05, 2004 at 09:13:29PM -0600, Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 No.  We are not calling on the Morality Police to take the
 particular web site down.  We are not saying, you can not
 install that app on your computer.
 
 There's a *fundamental* difference between don't want hot-babe
 in Debian and don't want hot-babe to *exist*.

That doesn't contradict the fact that this could be considered stupid
and/or hypocritic, while *not* censorship.

Mike




Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-06 Thread Ron Johnson
On Mon, 2004-12-06 at 07:03 +0100, Miros/law Baran wrote:
 6.12.2004 pisze Brian May ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):
 
 [...]
 
  Also, to the best my knowledge the kernel doesn't contain any pictures
  of naked people either. I might be mistaken.
 
 It is much, much worse. There is a picture of naked animal there.

Ok, I'll bite: which file?

-- 
-
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson, LA USA
PGP Key ID 8834C06B I prefer encrypted mail.

ACHTUNG - ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS
Das Machine is nicht fur gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist
easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit
spitzensparken. Ist nicht fur gewerken by das dummkopfen. Das
rubbernecken sightseeren musten keepen das cotten-pickenen hands
in das pockets - relaxen und watchen das blinkenlights.



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Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-06 Thread Manoj Srivastava
On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 22:32:29 -0600, Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: 

 On Sun, 2004-12-05 at 19:24 -0800, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote:
 Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
  There's a *fundamental* difference between don't want hot-babe
  in Debian and don't want hot-babe to *exist*.
 
 Currently, the procedures for the inclusion of packages in Debian
 allow each developer to decide what to package, provided the
 licenses permit distribution.

 Yes, I know.  AFAICT, the only way for h-b to not be in Debian would
 be if Thibaut VARENE, who filed the original ITP, decided not to
 submit the package to Debian.

That shall not work, since if the ITP is not followed upon,
 other people may chose to put the package in Debian. ITP's can be
 hijacked if the original author does not follow through.

manoj
-- 
NEWARK has been REZONED!!  DES MOINES has been REZONED!!
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Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-06 Thread Manoj Srivastava
On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 20:50:25 -0600, Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: 

 On Sun, 2004-12-05 at 15:07 +, Andrew Suffield wrote:
 On Sun, Dec 05, 2004 at 08:45:56AM -0600, Steve Greenland wrote:
  On 05-Dec-04, 04:55 (CST), James Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   
   There's no excuse for censorship, ever.
   
  
  Okay everybody, repeat after me: Choosing not to distribute a
  given package is NOT censorship.
 
 And telling somebody else that they can't distribute a given
 package IS censorship.
 
 You evidently have chosen not to do it. That's not
 censorship. You're presumably also trying to tell somebody else not
 to do it. That's censorship.

 Then the DFSG is censorship, and newspaper editors are censors.

 Be real, man.  Steve Greenland said it perfectly: Choosing not to
 distribute a given package is NOT censorship.  ...  This is not a
 subtle difference.


You choose not to put such a thing in Debian, your choice. You
 tell me that something I have worked upon, is legal, and free, and my
 work can't be put into debian because of your narrow morality, then
 it is indeed censorship.

manoj
-- 
What kind of sordid business are you on now?  I mean, man, whither
goest thou? Whither goest thou, America, in thy shiny car in the
night? -- Jack Kerouac
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Re: Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-06 Thread Ron Johnson
On Mon, 2004-12-06 at 15:36 +0900, Mike Hommey wrote:
 On Sun, Dec 05, 2004 at 09:13:29PM -0600, Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
  No.  We are not calling on the Morality Police to take the
  particular web site down.  We are not saying, you can not
  install that app on your computer.
  
  There's a *fundamental* difference between don't want hot-babe
  in Debian and don't want hot-babe to *exist*.
 
 That doesn't contradict the fact that this could be considered stupid
 and/or hypocritic, while *not* censorship.

True.  Censorship and stupidity/hypocrisy are orthogonal.

-- 
-
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson, LA USA
PGP Key ID 8834C06B I prefer encrypted mail.

The difference between RockRoll and Country Music?
Old Rockers still on tour are pathetic, but old Country singers
are still great.



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Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-06 Thread Don Armstrong
On Mon, 06 Dec 2004, Ron Johnson wrote:
 On Mon, 2004-12-06 at 07:03 +0100, Miros/law Baran wrote:
  6.12.2004 pisze Brian May ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):
   Also, to the best my knowledge the kernel doesn't contain any pictures
   of naked people either. I might be mistaken.
  
  It is much, much worse. There is a picture of naked animal there.
 
 Ok, I'll bite: which file?

Hell, it's even worse. We distribute a picture with a naked animal
admonishing impressionable youngsters to imbibe!

Upstream doesn't even stoop to our levels of depravity.


Don Armstrong

[Oh No! My signature may make those impressionable youngsters go out
and get heavy water and start drinking radioactive coffee! And they
won't know when to stop because their gieger counters won't start
clicking because they haven't learned elementry particle physics!]

-- 
UF: What's your favourite coffee blend?
PD: Dark Crude with heavy water. You are understandink? If geiger
counter does not click, the coffee, she is just not thick.

http://www.donarmstrong.com  http://rzlab.ucr.edu




Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-06 Thread Manoj Srivastava
On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 19:36:13 -0800, Bruce Perens [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: 

 Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote:
 Maybe we should have such a process; maybe not.  But regardless,
 the current process allows each individual developer that judgment.
 
 
 All Debian process is a result of having a problem, and not having a
 process. The problem in this case is that a lot of people think they
 know what's right, but have not walked through all of the
 implications and distilled it to process, and aren't interested in
 doing that work.

I amnot sure setting up a process to censor packages is
 something the project should be interested in doing, no.

manoj
-- 
Argue for your limitations, and sure enough, they're yours. Messiah's
Handbook : Reminders for the Advanced Soul
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Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-06 Thread Manoj Srivastava
On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 17:27:39 -0800, Bruce Perens [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: 

 Steve Greenland wrote:
 Okay everybody, repeat after me: Choosing not to distribute a given
 package is NOT censorship. We are not telling people that they
 can't install, use, and/or distribute the package, just that we
 don't care to make it available as an official Debian package from
 our servers. This is not a subtle difference.
 
 Steve
 
 
 Agreed.

 We are obligated to respect your right of free speech. We aren't
 obligated to provide the venue for your speech.

Who's we here, kemo sabe? Last I looked, you are not a project
 member. 

Now, Debian distributes legal, and free, programs that the
 members package. That has not changed. We do not block packages cause
 the contents are not to our liking.

manoj
-- 
Half a mind is a terrible thing to waste!
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Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-06 Thread Manoj Srivastava
On Sun, 5 Dec 2004 12:21:04 -0600, Steve Greenland [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: 

 On 05-Dec-04, 09:07 (CST), Andrew Suffield [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Sun, Dec 05, 2004 at 08:45:56AM -0600, Steve Greenland wrote:
  On 05-Dec-04, 04:55 (CST), James Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   
   There's no excuse for censorship, ever.
   
  
  Okay everybody, repeat after me: Choosing not to distribute a
  given package is NOT censorship.
 
 And telling somebody else that they can't distribute a given
 package IS censorship.

 I haven't told anyone that they can't distribute it. We, Debian, can
 choose not to distribute certain materials w/o it being censorship.

We do not as a project decide to include or not include
 packages. The people who do the work decide what they work on. No one
 decided we should or should not have slat in the project. 

If I  package a package, you do not have a right to tell me it
 shall not be included just because you do not like it. Either prove
 it is illegal, or it goes in.

 My local library does not buy and circulate every single book that
 comes on the market. That's not censorship. They have limited
 resources, and thus must make choices.

The resources such a small package usees are the maintianers
 time -- and one that has been provided, rejecting a donated book
 because of the content would be censorship.

manoj
-- 
Don't worry about people stealing your ideas.  If your ideas are any
good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats. -- Howard Aiken
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Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-06 Thread Manoj Srivastava
On Sun, 5 Dec 2004 14:23:52 +0100, Jonas Meurer [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: 

 On 05/12/2004 James Foster wrote:
 Pornography may be offensive to some. Is the package description
 for hot-babe accurate? Are people who do not want it installed
 being forced to install it?
 
 People who may be offended by the package should read its
 description and make up their own mind about whether or not they
 would like to install it.
 
 [...]
 
 There's no excuse for censorship, ever.

 so you would even accept nazi propaganda material in debian, just
 because you dislike censorship?

Hell yes. I even tolerate KKK marches in town even though
 their stated cause is getting rid of people like me.


Freedom is not just for ideas we approve of.

 did you ever think about the issue, that discriminating
 positions/POVs themselves are censoring, as they eliminate the
 thoughts of suppressed individuals?

And have you tho=oiught that tolerating intolerance may be as
 repugnant to others?

 in my eyes there shouldn't be any tolerance for intolerance, as you
 woun't get respect in return. rather your tolerance will be
 exploited.

Right. I am not about to go about tolerating people who are
 intolerant of artr, jsut because it celebrates the naked human body. 

manoj
-- 
The more you speak of yourself, the more you are likely to lie.  --
Zimmerman
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Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-06 Thread Ron Johnson
On Sun, 2004-12-05 at 22:49 -0800, Don Armstrong wrote:
 On Mon, 06 Dec 2004, Ron Johnson wrote:
  On Mon, 2004-12-06 at 07:03 +0100, Miros/law Baran wrote:
   6.12.2004 pisze Brian May ([EMAIL PROTECTED]):
Also, to the best my knowledge the kernel doesn't contain any pictures
of naked people either. I might be mistaken.
   
   It is much, much worse. There is a picture of naked animal there.
  
  Ok, I'll bite: which file?
 
 Hell, it's even worse. We distribute a picture with a naked animal

Umm, all animals (except humans) are naked.

 admonishing impressionable youngsters to imbibe!

???  I'm sure there's a picture somewhere of Tux drinking a 
beer.  Which package is it in, just out of curiosity.

 Upstream doesn't even stoop to our levels of depravity.

Certainly not to mine... :o

-- 
-
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson, LA USA
PGP Key ID 8834C06B I prefer encrypted mail.

It is an unfortunate fact that we can secure peace only by
preparing for war.
John F Kennedy



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Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-06 Thread Manoj Srivastava
On Sun, 5 Dec 2004 15:55:27 +, Matthew Garrett
[EMAIL PROTECTED] said:  

Hmm. Let it not be said that I don't respond in a fashion that
 the responded is likely to understand.

 Or, putting it another way: failing to include this piece of code
 does Debian no demonstrable harm. Including it does. I know we have
 something of a reputation for preferring philosophical masturbation
 to actually doing the useful thing, but that shouldn't result in a
 several hundred post flamewar. What are you all, stupid or
 something?

No, moron, but you are.  Let me try and express this in as few
 polysyllabic words as I can.

Stupidly enough, you have committed the idiotic mistake of
 assuming that everyone holds to your premises, that firstly,
 tolerating intolerance is somehow a good thing -- why should it be is
 beyond me.

Secondly, that giving in to the intolerant bigots is not going
 to hurt Debian -- it is going to hurt its reputation in enlightened
 circles, people who are against narrow minded bigotry, and wo
 recognize art --- even if Bruno Bellamy is not on their own preferred
 artists of the century list.

Not permitting this package would be an indication that Debian
 has been overrun by art hating, narrow minded, right wing bigoted
 censors who are pursuing their agenda of imposing narrow minded so
 called morality on the rest of society.

An, in case you do not get it, that is a bad thing.

manoj
-- 
I will make no bargains with terrorist hardware. Peter da Silva
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Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-06 Thread Manoj Srivastava
On Sun, 5 Dec 2004 22:57:19 +0100, Jan Ingvoldstad [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: 

 Here's one useful suggestion, I think:

 If hot-babe is useful as a .deb, make it available as such through
 its own web site or something.  This works for many other packages
 not accepted into the Debian tree for whatever reason, why shouldn't
 it work for hot-babe?

The reason other packages are not accepted into Debian is
 usually license issues -- they are not fre. Here we have a free
 package,m and the only reason to keep it out is narrow minded
 bigotry. I see that as a big deal.

 Or, if those of you who really really want hot-babe in a kind of
 distribution feel like it, create your own distribution tree with
 hot-babe and other stuff that's not regularly distributed in main,
 contrib, non-free or non-US.  I'm sure there's enough interest
 around to make it popular.

I have. This distribution has been called Debian. I make you
 the same offer: if you dislike freedom so much, make your own
 distro. Good luck.

manoj
-- 
She blinded me with science!
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Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-06 Thread Ron Johnson
On Mon, 2004-12-06 at 00:39 -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
 On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 22:32:29 -0600, Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: 
 
  On Sun, 2004-12-05 at 19:24 -0800, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote:
  Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  
   There's a *fundamental* difference between don't want hot-babe
   in Debian and don't want hot-babe to *exist*.
  
  Currently, the procedures for the inclusion of packages in Debian
  allow each developer to decide what to package, provided the
  licenses permit distribution.
 
  Yes, I know.  AFAICT, the only way for h-b to not be in Debian would
  be if Thibaut VARENE, who filed the original ITP, decided not to
  submit the package to Debian.
 
   That shall not work, since if the ITP is not followed upon,
  other people may chose to put the package in Debian. ITP's can be
  hijacked if the original author does not follow through.

Picky, picky.  You get my point, though.  But probably not.

-- 
-
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson, LA USA
PGP Key ID 8834C06B I prefer encrypted mail.

One sword keeps another in the sheath.
George Herbert



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Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-06 Thread Ron Johnson
On Mon, 2004-12-06 at 00:57 -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
 On Sun, 5 Dec 2004 22:57:19 +0100, Jan Ingvoldstad [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: 
 
  Here's one useful suggestion, I think:
 
  If hot-babe is useful as a .deb, make it available as such through
  its own web site or something.  This works for many other packages
  not accepted into the Debian tree for whatever reason, why shouldn't
  it work for hot-babe?
 
   The reason other packages are not accepted into Debian is
  usually license issues -- they are not fre.

But that's censorship!

-- 
-
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson, LA USA
PGP Key ID 8834C06B I prefer encrypted mail.

All machines, no matter how complex, are considered to be based
on 6 simple elements: the lever, the pulley, the wheel and axle,
the screw, the wedge and the inclined plane.
Marilyn Vos Savant



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Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-06 Thread Ron Johnson
On Mon, 2004-12-06 at 00:38 -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
 On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 20:50:25 -0600, Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: 
 
  On Sun, 2004-12-05 at 15:07 +, Andrew Suffield wrote:
  On Sun, Dec 05, 2004 at 08:45:56AM -0600, Steve Greenland wrote:
   On 05-Dec-04, 04:55 (CST), James Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

There's no excuse for censorship, ever.

   
   Okay everybody, repeat after me: Choosing not to distribute a
   given package is NOT censorship.
  
  And telling somebody else that they can't distribute a given
  package IS censorship.
  
  You evidently have chosen not to do it. That's not
  censorship. You're presumably also trying to tell somebody else not
  to do it. That's censorship.
 
  Then the DFSG is censorship, and newspaper editors are censors.
 
  Be real, man.  Steve Greenland said it perfectly: Choosing not to
  distribute a given package is NOT censorship.  ...  This is not a
  subtle difference.
 
 
   You choose not to put such a thing in Debian, your choice. You
  tell me that something I have worked upon, is legal, and free, and my
  work can't be put into debian because of your narrow morality, then
  it is indeed censorship.

Sigh  I never said it *can't*.  The tone has been, *should* it
be in Debian.

-- 
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Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson, LA USA
PGP Key ID 8834C06B I prefer encrypted mail.

I have been assured by a very knowing American of my
acquaintance in London, that a young healthy child well nursed is
at a year old a most delicious, nourishing, and wholesome food,
whether stewed, roasted, baked, or boiled; and I make no doubt
that it will equally serve in a fricassee or a ragout.
A MODEST PROPOSAL FOR PREVENTING THE CHILDREN OF POOR PEOPLE IN
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Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-06 Thread Manoj Srivastava
On Mon, 06 Dec 2004 00:45:20 -0600, Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: 

 On Mon, 2004-12-06 at 15:36 +0900, Mike Hommey wrote:
 On Sun, Dec 05, 2004 at 09:13:29PM -0600, Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
  No.  We are not calling on the Morality Police to take the
  particular web site down.  We are not saying, you can not
  install that app on your computer.
  
  There's a *fundamental* difference between don't want hot-babe
  in Debian and don't want hot-babe to *exist*.
 
 That doesn't contradict the fact that this could be considered
 stupid and/or hypocritic, while *not* censorship.

 True.  Censorship and stupidity/hypocrisy are orthogonal.

You have got to be kidding. Or you do not understand the
 meaning of the word orthogonal.

manoj
-- 
He'll sit here and he'll say, Do this!  Do that!  And nothing will
happen. Harry S. Truman, on presidential power
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Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-06 Thread Manoj Srivastava
On Mon, 06 Dec 2004 01:08:31 -0600, Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: 

 On Mon, 2004-12-06 at 00:57 -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
 On Sun, 5 Dec 2004 22:57:19 +0100, Jan Ingvoldstad
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
 
  Here's one useful suggestion, I think:
 
  If hot-babe is useful as a .deb, make it available as such
  through its own web site or something.  This works for many other
  packages not accepted into the Debian tree for whatever reason,
  why shouldn't it work for hot-babe?
 
 The reason other packages are not accepted into Debian is usually
 license issues -- they are not fre.

 But that's censorship!

No, dear idiot, it is not. We do not distribute illegal
 software, cause we are not scofflaws. We do not distribute non--free
 stuff, cause that is the core of what we are.  And if no DD does the
 work, it is not here to be distributed. We do not censor based on
 content.

I don't know why I bother explaining all this.

manoj
-- 
Nuclear war would really set back cable. Ted Turner
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Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-06 Thread Manoj Srivastava
On Mon, 06 Dec 2004 01:07:32 -0600, Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: 

 On Mon, 2004-12-06 at 00:39 -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
 On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 22:32:29 -0600, Ron Johnson
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
 
  On Sun, 2004-12-05 at 19:24 -0800, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote:
  Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  
   There's a *fundamental* difference between don't want
   hot-babe in Debian and don't want hot-babe to *exist*.
  
  Currently, the procedures for the inclusion of packages in
  Debian allow each developer to decide what to package, provided
  the licenses permit distribution.
 
  Yes, I know.  AFAICT, the only way for h-b to not be in Debian
  would be if Thibaut VARENE, who filed the original ITP, decided
  not to submit the package to Debian.
 
 That shall not work, since if the ITP is not followed upon, other
 people may chose to put the package in Debian. ITP's can be
 hijacked if the original author does not follow through.

 Picky, picky.  You get my point, though.  But probably not.

No, what is your point? Just convincing the original ITP filer
 is not enough. That was my point.

manoj
-- 
I took a fish head to the movies and I didn't have to pay. Fish Heads,
Saturday Night Live, 1977.
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Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-06 Thread Ron Johnson
On Mon, 2004-12-06 at 01:18 -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
 On Mon, 06 Dec 2004 01:08:31 -0600, Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: 
 
  On Mon, 2004-12-06 at 00:57 -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
  On Sun, 5 Dec 2004 22:57:19 +0100, Jan Ingvoldstad
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
  
   Here's one useful suggestion, I think:
  
   If hot-babe is useful as a .deb, make it available as such
   through its own web site or something.  This works for many other
   packages not accepted into the Debian tree for whatever reason,
   why shouldn't it work for hot-babe?
  
  The reason other packages are not accepted into Debian is usually
  license issues -- they are not fre.
 
  But that's censorship!
 
   No, dear idiot, it is not. We do not distribute illegal
  software, cause we are not scofflaws. We do not distribute non--free
  stuff, cause that is the core of what we are.  And if no DD does the
  work, it is not here to be distributed. We do not censor based on
  content.

Legal, illegal, what's the difference?  *I* want to package it.
Therefore, anyone who tries to stop me is censoring me.

-- 
-
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson, LA USA
PGP Key ID 8834C06B I prefer encrypted mail.

Experience should teach us to be most on our guard to protect
liberty when the Government's purposes are beneficent. Men born
to freedom are naturally alert to repel invasion of their liberty
by evil-minded rulers. The greatest dangers to liberty lurk in
insidious encroachment by men of zeal, well-meaning, but without
understanding.
Justice Louis Brandeis, dissenting, Olmstead v US (1928)



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Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-06 Thread Bruce Perens
Ron Johnson wrote:
Legal, illegal, what's the difference?  *I* want to package it.
Therefore, anyone who tries to stop me is censoring me.
 

Nobody can stop you from creating a package of it. Folks on the Debian 
project can collectively decide whether or not the project should be a 
party to distributing it.

   Thanks
   Bruce


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Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-06 Thread Thomas Bushnell BSG
Bruce Perens [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Nobody can stop you from creating a package of it. Folks on the Debian
 project can collectively decide whether or not the project should be a
 party to distributing it.

Currently the only procedure we have in place for this, short of
convincing the maintainer to withdraw it, is a GR.  So while you are
right, your attempts to pretend that there is some other sort of
procedure, or perhaps to pressure people to act as if there were one,
is unwelcome.  And, IIRC, you aren't one of those folks anyway, right?




Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-06 Thread Ron Johnson
On Sun, 2004-12-05 at 23:44 -0800, Bruce Perens wrote:
 Ron Johnson wrote:
 
 Legal, illegal, what's the difference?  *I* want to package it.
 Therefore, anyone who tries to stop me is censoring me.
   
 
 Nobody can stop you from creating a package of it. Folks on the Debian 
 project can collectively decide whether or not the project should be a 
 party to distributing it.

Yes.  I was trying to make a point by taking Manoj's censorship
article to the extreme.

-- 
-
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson, LA USA
PGP Key ID 8834C06B I prefer encrypted mail.

One sword keeps another in the sheath.
George Herbert



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Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-06 Thread Bruce Perens
Manoj Srivastava wrote:
Who's we here, kemo sabe? Last I looked, you are not a project member. 
 

You haven't looked in a while.
   Bruce


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Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-06 Thread Bruce Perens
Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote:
Currently the only procedure we have in place for this, short of
convincing the maintainer to withdraw it, is a GR.
Yes, I will work on that.
And, IIRC, you aren't one of those folks anyway, right?
 

No, that's wrong. I was added to the active Debian developer keyring 
more than 11 months ago and meet all necessary qualifications of a 
Debian developer.

   Thanks
   Bruce


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Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-06 Thread cobaco (aka Bart Cornelis)
On Monday 06 December 2004 08:01, Ron Johnson wrote:
 On Sun, 2004-12-05 at 22:49 -0800, Don Armstrong wrote:
 Umm, all animals (except humans) are naked.

:-O and here I always thought I was naked underneed my clothes!
-- 
Cheers, cobaco (aka Bart Cornelis)
  
1. Encrypted mail preferred (GPG KeyID: 0x86624ABB)
2. Plain-text mail recommended since I move html and double
format mails to a low priority folder (they're mainly spam)


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Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-06 Thread Joey Hess
Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote:
  Nobody can stop you from creating a package of it. Folks on the Debian
  project can collectively decide whether or not the project should be a
  party to distributing it.

 Currently the only procedure we have in place for this, short of
 convincing the maintainer to withdraw it, is a GR.

Well, except for..

1. package is rejected by ftp-masters for whatever reason they feel like
   or simply left to rot in Incoming forever (mplayer)
2. DPL[1] asks ftp-master to remove a package
3. project decides to relegate a class of packages to an alternate
   repository (non-us)
4. maintainer is removed from Debian project for any of the reasons
   listed in the DMUP, or any other reason, and package is removed/rejected
   then or later due to lack of maintainer
5. project decides informally that a class of software is not in scope for
   the distribution (all DFSG free windows-only or macos-only software)
6. project decides informally that potential legal liabilities outweigh
   the benefit of putting some software in Debian, applies this on a
   slightly ad-hoc basis (certian possibly-patent-infringing software, but
   hardly all of it)
7. content of package referred to tech committee, who overrule the
   maintainer[2]
8. black helicopters
9. we all end up wanking in this thread forever whilst being titillated by
   ubuntu, never release again, and so the point is moot

Hmm, no GRs there.

My personal bets for the case that spawned this thread: 1, 6, 5, or 8^W9.

-- 
see shy jo

[1] I hesitate to provide constitutional cites because it's like
spreading blood in the water, but depending on the situation,
this could easily be allowed under 5.1.3, 5.1.1, or 5.1.4. Or just
see #1 above and consider who has oversight.
[2] That's 6.1.4


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Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-06 Thread Thomas Bushnell BSG
Joey Hess [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Well, except for..

I'm sorry, I didn't mean that these other possibilities don't exist.
Bruce was not suggesting any of them either, and my real point is that
none of them are on-topic for debian-devel. 

 6. project decides informally that potential legal liabilities outweigh
the benefit of putting some software in Debian, applies this on a
slightly ad-hoc basis (certian possibly-patent-infringing software, but
hardly all of it)

I don't know what in practice this amounts to, except the ftp-masters
or the DPL enforcing it, which reduces to the previous things.  

 7. content of package referred to tech committee, who overrule the
maintainer[2]

tech-ctte has no jurisdiction over non-technical matters.




Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-06 Thread Andrew Suffield
On Sun, Dec 05, 2004 at 09:06:00PM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote:
What is actually happening here is that one individual Debian
developer is choosing to distribute a given package, and some other
developers are trying to stop them. That's censorship. Even if they
don't have the authority to do it (that just makes it ineffective
censorship).
   
   Actually, the developer is choosing to have Debian distribute a package, 
   and 
   others are trying to stop Debian from distributing the package.
  
  Word games. Censorship is when a citizen of one body chooses to have
  that body distribute something (by being a citizen and distributing
  it), and another citizen tries to stop them.
 
 Gah!  Book publishers do not publish every manuscript that is sent
 to them.  Movie studios do not fund every screenplay sent to them.
 Libraries, as has been mentioned before, don't buy every book.

You seem to be suggesting that any case where an organisation doesn't
publish something is not censorship. That's obviously wrong, because
some of them *are* censorship.

 Such choices are made *all the time*.  It's the difference between
 editing and censoring.

The difference being that editing is a choice made by the person doing
the work, while censorship is a choice made by an otherwise unrelated
person in the same organisation.

Editing would be if the maintainer decided to remove the
package. Censorship is when some other developer tries to force him.

-- 
  .''`.  ** Debian GNU/Linux ** | Andrew Suffield
 : :' :  http://www.debian.org/ |
 `. `'  |
   `- --  |


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Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-06 Thread Will Newton
On Monday 06 Dec 2004 06:54, Manoj Srivastava wrote:

  Stupidly enough, you have committed the idiotic mistake of
  assuming that everyone holds to your premises, that firstly,
  tolerating intolerance is somehow a good thing -- why should it be is
  beyond me.

Oh, this is about intolerance is it? I thought it was about whether a rather 
pointless, possibly illegal to distribute bit of light entertainment that is 
widely held to be offensive is really a worthy addition to the universal 
operating system.

  Secondly, that giving in to the intolerant bigots is not going
  to hurt Debian -- it is going to hurt its reputation in enlightened
  circles, people who are against narrow minded bigotry, and wo
  recognize art --- even if Bruno Bellamy is not on their own preferred
  artists of the century list.

Also porn fiends might be disappointed.

  Not permitting this package would be an indication that Debian
  has been overrun by art hating, narrow minded, right wing bigoted
  censors who are pursuing their agenda of imposing narrow minded so
  called morality on the rest of society.

Art hating? Narrow minded? WTF? This is an operating system not an art gallery 
and no-one is suggesting censoring anyone.




Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-06 Thread Will Newton
On Monday 06 Dec 2004 10:01, Andrew Suffield wrote:

 The difference being that editing is a choice made by the person doing
 the work, while censorship is a choice made by an otherwise unrelated
 person in the same organisation.

 Editing would be if the maintainer decided to remove the
 package. Censorship is when some other developer tries to force him.

I don't think this holds. Censoring is editing for ideological reasons, which 
is a subset of editing. It has nothing to do with who does it. A censor is a 
third party, and editor is a third party, at least in literary terms.

Arguing about the difference is IMO word games.




Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-06 Thread Steve Langasek
On Mon, Dec 06, 2004 at 10:01:16AM +, Andrew Suffield wrote:
Actually, the developer is choosing to have Debian distribute a 
package, and 
others are trying to stop Debian from distributing the package.

   Word games. Censorship is when a citizen of one body chooses to have
   that body distribute something (by being a citizen and distributing
   it), and another citizen tries to stop them.

  Gah!  Book publishers do not publish every manuscript that is sent
  to them.  Movie studios do not fund every screenplay sent to them.
  Libraries, as has been mentioned before, don't buy every book.

 You seem to be suggesting that any case where an organisation doesn't
 publish something is not censorship. That's obviously wrong, because
 some of them *are* censorship.

  Such choices are made *all the time*.  It's the difference between
  editing and censoring.

 The difference being that editing is a choice made by the person doing
 the work, while censorship is a choice made by an otherwise unrelated
 person in the same organisation.

 Editing would be if the maintainer decided to remove the
 package. Censorship is when some other developer tries to force him.

If an ftp-master in the course of doing the work of processing NEW rejects
a package, or a member of the release team in the course of doing the work
of preparing the next stable release excludes a package from consideration,
is this editing, or is it censorship?

If they do so for legal reasons?

If they do so for technical reasons?

If they do so because, in their estimation, doing so improves the quality of
the distribution?

Publishing houses never let writers edit their own work -- at least until
they're famous and have mindless followers who'll buy and read any formulaic
tripe they slap together.  I don't think I like the idea of Debian becoming
the Stephen King of the Open Source world.

It's extremely frustrating to see so many words spent on the notion of
censorship here.  At the end of the day, Debian, *as an organization*,
has the right (and responsibility) to decide what it publishes on behalf of
its member developers, and doing so is *not* *censorship*.  Even if that
happens to mean adopting policies that some significant minority fraction of
the developership disagrees with.

It's no wonder that Debian has a hard time reaching any sort of consensus
these days when we have developers who are happy as a pig in mud to argue ad
infinitum about whether the project has a right to *exercise* consensus.
And it's no wonder that Debian is slow to release when people are criticized
on public lists for showing an interest in the contents and quality of
packages that aren't theirs; for daring to ask the question, is this
something that Debian needs?

I've seen people make comments in this thread that hot-babe is just one more
package among thousands, and that uploading it doesn't mean integrating it
with the OS.  I think this attitude lies at the heart of one of Debian's
biggest problems today, namely that far too many developers seem to look on
Debian as nothing more than a package pool instead of as an OS.  I'm sorry,
but package pool has been done before -- it's called rpmfind.net, I've
lived it, and it sucked.  That's not what I'm after as a member of this
project, and I hope it's not what most other developers are after either,
but making an OS instead of a package pool takes developers who are willing
to look at issues outside the narrow confines of their own packages.  It
means looking precisely *towards* questions of better integration between
packages, to provide something cohesively whole.  Sometimes, it means asking
yourself that hard question, does my pet package, the 24th app in class
foo, make Debian a better OS, or is there some other way I could be
contributing that would improve the quality of Debian for everyone?

This discussion shouldn't be about censorship, or other forms of coercion;
no one with anything remotely resembling the power to do so has actually
suggested suppressing this package.  It shouldn't be about legality; there's
scant little evidence that cartoon drawings of naked breasts are illegal in
any jurisdiction where Debian wouldn't already have serious problems.  What
it *should* be about is moving towards a consensus, *together with the
maintainer*[1], about what we want Debian to be.  And contrary to much of
the rhetoric in this thread, it is possible to think a package like hot-babe
is a bad idea without wanting to be set up as a censor for all ideas they
disagree with.

ObRC: 283476

-- 
Steve Langasek
postmodern programmer

[1] Did anyone else notice that none of the people carrying on in
this thread is the ITPer, and very few of the messages are actually
addressed towards him?


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Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-06 Thread Jonas Meurer
On 06/12/2004 Manoj Srivastava wrote:
  in my eyes there shouldn't be any tolerance for intolerance, as you
  woun't get respect in return. rather your tolerance will be
  exploited.
 
   Right. I am not about to go about tolerating people who are
  intolerant of artr, jsut because it celebrates the naked human body. 

right, this is finally not the problem i meant when using the
expression 'sexism'.
if we really want a result in this discussion, we should start with
differentiate between symptoms and causes.

the celebration of naked human bodies is definitely not sexism itself,
the latent discrimination of women in the society is sexism. anyway all
these topics are connected in most societies, as most societies on earth
accept (and go on with) partiarchy.

objections against the hot-babe package are only a cause of this problem ...

bye
 jonas




Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-06 Thread Jonas Meurer
On 06/12/2004 Steve Langasek wrote:
 Publishing houses never let writers edit their own work -- at least until
 they're famous and have mindless followers who'll buy and read any formulaic
 tripe they slap together.  I don't think I like the idea of Debian becoming
 the Stephen King of the Open Source world.

then we should reconsider the Social Contract and the GR, as these claim
data to be software in our (debians) point of view.

i personally always disliked the idea of all data in debian being
software, as there are to many grey areas about that topic.

bye
 jonas


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Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-06 Thread Joey Hess
Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote:
 I'm sorry, I didn't mean that these other possibilities don't exist.

So why are you muttering about GRs when at least 9 other avenues exist
and GRs are proven to be divisive and a waste of time?

 Bruce was not suggesting any of them either, and my real point is that
 none of them are on-topic for debian-devel. 

Discussion of 3, 5, 7 are all strictly on topic for this mailing list.

 I don't know what in practice this amounts to, except the ftp-masters
 or the DPL enforcing it, which reduces to the previous things.  

Take a look at ITPs for things that infringe on the client-side rsync
patent.

 tech-ctte has no jurisdiction over non-technical matters.

It can be phrased as a technical matter.

-- 
see shy jo


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Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-06 Thread David Nusinow
On Fri, Dec 03, 2004 at 12:12:53PM +0900, Mike Hommey wrote:
 You're being offensive, you should not be included in Debian.

Reading this one comment made this whole craptacular thread worth reading.

 - David Nusinow




Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-06 Thread Andrea Bedini
Il giorno lun, 06-12-2004 alle 01:49 +, Andrew Suffield ha scritto:
 Word games. Censorship is when a citizen of one body chooses to have
 that body distribute something (by being a citizen and distributing
 it), and another citizen tries to stop them.

This is not the case: one member of a community chooses to do something
on which community doesn't agree. So community decides to not follow his
member and *let him do what he wants by his own*. Debian should not do
everything a single developer wants to do; as a community we have to
find a general consensus on our policy.

If we think that some action (like packaging sexist material) is
offensive for out principles (yes, me may have more principles other
free software) we can decide to try to  stop that action. Debian is a
community not just a set of independent members (at least this is what
i'll like it to be)

my just 2 cents for my very first post :-)







Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-06 Thread Ron Johnson
On Mon, 2004-12-06 at 21:25 +0100, Andrea Bedini wrote:
 Il giorno lun, 06-12-2004 alle 01:49 +, Andrew Suffield ha scritto:
  Word games. Censorship is when a citizen of one body chooses to have
  that body distribute something (by being a citizen and distributing
  it), and another citizen tries to stop them.
 
 This is not the case: one member of a community chooses to do something
 on which community doesn't agree. So community decides to not follow his
 member and *let him do what he wants by his own*. Debian should not do
 everything a single developer wants to do; as a community we have to
 find a general consensus on our policy.
 
 If we think that some action (like packaging sexist material) is
 offensive for out principles (yes, me may have more principles other
 free software) we can decide to try to  stop that action. Debian is a
 community not just a set of independent members (at least this is what
 i'll like it to be)
 
 my just 2 cents for my very first post :-)

And a very well-said one, at that.

-- 
-
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson, LA USA
PGP Key ID 8834C06B I prefer encrypted mail.

The political implications of this picture are pretty amazing.
http://www-1.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/waywewore/waywewore_28.
html



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Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-06 Thread Brian May
 Ron == Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Ron Umm, all animals (except humans) are naked.

Not true; have a look at some of the photos here:
URL:http://www.tech-sol.net/humor/funphoto121.htm (note: web page
produces stupid warnings; ignore them and it seems to work).  There
probably are better photos if you looked.

While some photos are rather erotic (unfortunately), there are some
very decent photos, too.
-- 
Brian May [EMAIL PROTECTED]




Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-06 Thread Brian May
 Ron == Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Ron If you are presenting pictures that appeal to the prurient
Ron interest and lacks serious literary, artistic, political or
Ron scientific value, then you very well might be violating your
Ron ISP's AUP.

So are you saying I should take my web pages of my naked dogs down?
-- 
Brian May [EMAIL PROTECTED]




Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-06 Thread Ron Johnson
On Tue, 2004-12-07 at 10:01 +1100, Brian May wrote:
  Ron == Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
 Ron If you are presenting pictures that appeal to the prurient
 Ron interest and lacks serious literary, artistic, political or
 Ron scientific value, then you very well might be violating your
 Ron ISP's AUP.
 
 So are you saying I should take my web pages of my naked dogs down?

Depends on who's prurient interests are appealed to by your naked
dogs.

Fortunately, though, pictures of naked dogs are *not* considered
to be appealing to prurient interests.  Unless, *maybe*, a hyper-
horny 13 year old boy is seeing a picture of dogs copulating, and
not in the context of some scientific value, i.e., a text book.
Even in that case, though, the boy would probably be told to wash
his hand and stop being a pervert.

-- 
-
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson, LA USA
PGP Key ID 8834C06B I prefer encrypted mail.

Americans hate foreign policy because Americans hate foreigners,
because they *are* foreigners, and came to this country to get
away from the bad things.
P.J. O'rourke, 2004-06-25, Fox News Channel



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Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-06 Thread Matthew Palmer
On Mon, Dec 06, 2004 at 04:13:08PM +0100, Jonas Meurer wrote:
 On 06/12/2004 Steve Langasek wrote:
  Publishing houses never let writers edit their own work -- at least until
  they're famous and have mindless followers who'll buy and read any formulaic
  tripe they slap together.  I don't think I like the idea of Debian becoming
  the Stephen King of the Open Source world.
 
 then we should reconsider the Social Contract and the GR, as these claim
 data to be software in our (debians) point of view.
 
 i personally always disliked the idea of all data in debian being
 software, as there are to many grey areas about that topic.

And the award for greatest disjoint between mail and reply goes to Jonas
Meurer.  Other awards for this post include best hijacking of an unrelated
thread to reignite dead topics, and The Non-sequitur award for cognative
dissonance.

- Matt


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Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-06 Thread Glenn Maynard
On Tue, Dec 07, 2004 at 11:21:41AM +1100, Matthew Palmer wrote:
 On Mon, Dec 06, 2004 at 04:13:08PM +0100, Jonas Meurer wrote:
  On 06/12/2004 Steve Langasek wrote:
   Publishing houses never let writers edit their own work -- at least until
   they're famous and have mindless followers who'll buy and read any 
   formulaic
   tripe they slap together.  I don't think I like the idea of Debian 
   becoming
   the Stephen King of the Open Source world.
  
  then we should reconsider the Social Contract and the GR, as these claim
  data to be software in our (debians) point of view.
  
  i personally always disliked the idea of all data in debian being
  software, as there are to many grey areas about that topic.
 
 And the award for greatest disjoint between mail and reply goes to Jonas
 Meurer.  Other awards for this post include best hijacking of an unrelated
 thread to reignite dead topics, and The Non-sequitur award for cognative
 dissonance.

But JACK HOWARTH IS A FUCKING IDIOT ...

-- 
Glenn Maynard




Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-06 Thread Clemens Schwaighofer
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 12/03/2004 12:08 PM, Mike Hommey wrote:
 On Fri, Dec 03, 2004 at 01:26:50AM +0100, Michelle Konzack [EMAIL 
 PROTECTED] wrote:
 
Am 2004-12-02 18:11:03, schrieb Manoj Srivastava:


 The Bible is illegal to distribute in the most populous nation
 in the world.

Not only this, because the Old Testament glorifies the genocide...
The Thora too. But not the Quran :-)
 
 
 True, the Koran just invites to kill your ennemy bloodily, that's very
 different...

Thats wrong, thats just an interpretion.


- --
[ Clemens Schwaighofer  -=:~ ]
[ TBWA\  TEQUILA\ Japan IT Group   ]
[6-17-2 Ginza Chuo-ku, Tokyo 104-0061, JAPAN ]
[ Tel: +81-(0)3-3545-7703Fax: +81-(0)3-3545-7343 ]
[ http://www.tequila.co.jphttp://www.tbwajapan.co.jp ]
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Re: Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-05 Thread James Foster
Pornography may be offensive to some. Is the package description for
hot-babe accurate? Are people who do not want it installed being
forced to install it?

People who may be offended by the package should read its description
and make up their own mind about whether or not they would like to
install it.

I'd like to also mention that censorship is very offensive, to me. I
find it absolutely disgusting that some people think they have the
right to control what I may view, or what gets included in media
(Debian, in this case) that I use, due to their own beliefs. If they
are offended by something, and they are not being forced to expose
themselves to it, they have no good reason for complaint, and they
especially shouldn't try to stop other people from viewing/using it.

As for legal issues, there's so much software and so many packages in
Debian, that it's more or less impossible to keep track of which
packages violate which laws, and in which countries those laws apply.
It'd be nice if that were possible, but it's not. I imagine most
packages might violate some obscure law in some obscure country.
Debian needs to stick to the laws of one major country, and perhaps
provide packages that don't fit into that country's legal system as a
separate source, if possible. I live in Australia, but I think that
basing Debians decisions on US law is the most sensible option.

Which packages should be allowed into Debian? All packages with a
maintainer. This policy could lead to problems with Debian growing far
too large. To solve that, I feel there should be some discussion on
packages that might not be very useful to many people. If it is
decided that they're probably not very useful, they should be put into
a separate source, outside the main distribution, but still available
for those that want them.

There's no excuse for censorship, ever.




Re: Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-05 Thread Jonas Meurer
On 05/12/2004 James Foster wrote:
 Pornography may be offensive to some. Is the package description for
 hot-babe accurate? Are people who do not want it installed being
 forced to install it?
 
 People who may be offended by the package should read its description
 and make up their own mind about whether or not they would like to
 install it.
 
 [...]
 
 There's no excuse for censorship, ever.

so you would even accept nazi propaganda material in debian, just
because you dislike censorship?

did you ever think about the issue, that discriminating
positions/POVs themselves are censoring, as they eliminate the thoughts
of suppressed individuals?

in my eyes there shouldn't be any tolerance for intolerance, as you
woun't get respect in return. rather your tolerance will be exploited.

and apart from that, i don't need a gender war in debian. nearly every
community i know, online or reallife, ran into sexist problems sooner or
later, caused by latent disriminating structures in modern societies.

bye
 jonas




Re: Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-05 Thread Josselin Mouette
Le dimanche 05 décembre 2004 à 14:23 +0100, Jonas Meurer a écrit :
  There's no excuse for censorship, ever.
 
 so you would even accept nazi propaganda material in debian, just
 because you dislike censorship?

You're being late for invoking the Godwin law.
-- 
 .''`.   Josselin Mouette/\./\
: :' :   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
`. `'[EMAIL PROTECTED]
  `-  Debian GNU/Linux -- The power of freedom


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Re: Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-05 Thread Jonas Meurer
On 05/12/2004 Josselin Mouette wrote:
 Le dimanche 05 décembre 2004 à 14:23 +0100, Jonas Meurer a écrit :
   There's no excuse for censorship, ever.
  
  so you would even accept nazi propaganda material in debian, just
  because you dislike censorship?
 
 You're being late for invoking the Godwin law.

can you give further information about this 'Godwin law'? you mean that
i repeated what Godwin already mentioned?

bye
 jonas


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Re: Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-05 Thread Petter Reinholdtsen
[Jonas Meurer]
 can you give further information about this 'Godwin law'? you mean
 that i repeated what Godwin already mentioned?

Different Godwin, I believe.

URL:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law




Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-05 Thread Sebastian Ley
* Jonas Meurer wrote:

 can you give further information about this 'Godwin law'?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwins_law

Sebastian

-- 
PGP-Key: http://www.mmweg.rwth-aachen.de/~sebastian.ley/public.key
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Re: Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor

2004-12-05 Thread Ron Johnson
On Sun, 2004-12-05 at 14:29 +0100, Josselin Mouette wrote: 
 Le dimanche 05 décembre 2004 à 14:23 +0100, Jonas Meurer a écrit :
   There's no excuse for censorship, ever.
  
  so you would even accept nazi propaganda material in debian, just
  because you dislike censorship?
 
 You're being late for invoking the Godwin law.

In order to keep the conversation going, let's rephrase that
to:
so you would even accept vil sexist/racist/homophobic/globalist
baby-eating Republican propaganda material.

-- 
-
Ron Johnson, Jr.
Jefferson, LA USA
PGP Key ID 8834C06B I prefer encrypted mail.

The one function that TV news performs very well is that when
there is no news we give it to you with the same emphasis as if
it were.
David Brinkley




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