Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC
Hi Martina, On Fri, 27 Dec 2019, Martina Ferrari wrote: > Norbert, I am still trying to know if all the misgendering and > deadnaming you've done was another "error", or just part of the Can you point me to *one*single* case I misgendered you or called you by the wrong name? Ar you referring to the blog post from 1 year ago, where I spelled *one* pronoun false, and fixed it within hours it was pointed out to me? Martina, I think you actively trying a defamation campaign against me, and I am pondering actions, both within and outside of Debian, to counteract you permanent defamations. (public and Debian aggregated blog calling me out as advocate of sexism, calling me repeatatly transphobe and other things in public fora, ...) I am not interested in your gender, not at all, I am interested in your complete misbehaviour. If you cannot accept responsability for calling out other people as Nazis, creators of a genocide, etc, and always take the gender as cover for your bad behaviour, I think you are really serving the LBGTQ community very badly. --> > the saying goes: if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck.. Norbert -- PREINING Norbert http://www.preining.info Accelia Inc. + IFMGA ProGuide + TU Wien + JAIST + TeX Live + Debian Dev GPG: 0x860CDC13 fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13
Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC
Hi Sam, thanks for trying to help explain things. On Mon, 23 Dec 2019, Sam Hartman wrote: > I think your messages here over the last few weeks and your blog posts > (not sindicated on planet) would reasonably lead someone to the Indeed, I have made the same failure I criticized Pierre-Elliott for, namely extrapolating from one person to a larger group. I have updated the blog post to make this clear, including an apology, but remain clear with my critic on Martina. Best Norbert (btw, it seems I am the only one in the whole group who ever admits to an error - funny how **perfect** you all are!) -- PREINING Norbert http://www.preining.info Accelia Inc. + IFMGA ProGuide + TU Wien + JAIST + TeX Live + Debian Dev GPG: 0x860CDC13 fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13
Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC
Dear Pierre-Elliott, (I am not subscribed to d-p anymore) thanks for your email. I would like to ask you for an explanation: On Sun, 22 Dec 2019, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote: > If you have troubles with diversity and the fact that to protect it, we > have to be more careful with minorities than we have to be with the > regular majority, no one is forcing you to stay in the project. Could you please tell me how you came to the conclusion that I have troubles with minorities? I have pointed at and criticized Ferrari's email without regress on her gender identity or any other personal criteria. What makes you extrapolate that I have problems with inclusiveness? To make it crystal clear, here a Gedankenexperiment: Assume I would state on the debian-project mailing list that Pierre-Elliott Bécue thinks that all foreigners living in Japan are transphobe. How would you feel/think about such a statement? But I would have done the same as you, extrapolating from one criticizing statement to criticizing the minority the person belongs to. Thanks for reading till here. Norbert (again, not subscribed anymore to d-p, only personal emails will be read) -- PREINING Norbert http://www.preining.info Accelia Inc. + IFMGA ProGuide + TU Wien + JAIST + TeX Live + Debian Dev GPG: 0x860CDC13 fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13
Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC
On Thu, 19 Dec 2019, Martina Ferrari wrote: > A judge in the UK had something to say in respect of these attitudes > yesterday: Hear hear who speaks ... we don't mention the environment you create. Norbert -- PREINING Norbert http://www.preining.info Accelia Inc. + IFMGA ProGuide + TU Wien + JAIST + TeX Live + Debian Dev GPG: 0x860CDC13 fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13
Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC
Hi, > https://everydayfeminism.com/2015/12/tone-policing-and-privilege/ Nice cartoon, but having emotions and blarping out insults is a different thing. > > And that from an AH/whatever team member, this is a shame for you and > > Debian. > > It is a shame that Debian still has transphobes in its ranks, but here > we are.. If this was directed at me, I request an apology. I was criticizing you for your insulting language, and not for your gender. > I don't want to be in the same place as transphobes, that's for sure. You are free to leave. Norbert -- PREINING Norbert http://www.preining.info Accelia Inc. + IFMGA ProGuide + TU Wien + JAIST + TeX Live + Debian Dev GPG: 0x860CDC13 fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13
Re: Some thoughts about Diversity and the CoC
Martina, please tone down you expression, three times "asshole" sprinkled with some "fuck off" is far above any acceptable limit here. Not to mention "genocide" and "nazi". And that from an AH/whatever team member, this is a shame for you and Debian. @listmaster: I consider this an actionable email, and Martina should be warned or banned, this kind of emails, and persons writing them, have no place in Debian, either. Norbert -- PREINING Norbert http://www.preining.info Accelia Inc. + IFMGA ProGuide + TU Wien + JAIST + TeX Live + Debian Dev GPG: 0x860CDC13 fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13
Re: Community Team - where we want to go
On Mon, 11 Nov 2019, Gerardo Ballabio wrote: > That is, the team would rule on individual cases, rather than issuing > "lists of things not to do". IMHO that pretty much would make it a > court with the power to judge project members. And I'm not sure that > the team not taking actual measures, but just making "recommendations" > to other people who are empowered to take action, would make a > difference. In fact, that would be curiously similar to how the > Inquisition proceeded: technically they never executed anyone, they > just sent people to the secular authority with the "recommendation" to > burn them at the stake. > > And if the people empowered to take action can disagree with the > recommendation and apply their own judgement, well, that would make > the "ultimate authority" concept void, and I would say, would nullify > the whole point of having the team "interpret the CoC". +1 Norbert -- PREINING Norbert http://www.preining.info Accelia Inc. + IFMGA ProGuide + TU Wien + JAIST + TeX Live + Debian Dev GPG: 0x860CDC13 fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13
Re: Community Team - where we want to go
Hi On Wed, 09 Oct 2019, Steve McIntyre wrote: > Name: Community Team > The team itself has no direct powers to enforce any decision, and > merely acts as an advisory body. It will aim to respond in a timely > Responsibilities include > * Interpreting the Code of Conduct; As "just another group of Debian Developers" I am not sure how you can usurp the right to exegesis of the CoC? What about if another group XYZ (like the Debian TeX Team) decides that our responsability is Interpreting the Code of Conduct ? Same old people under new name ... Same old wine in new bottles ... Nothing has changed. Best Norbert -- PREINING Norbert http://www.preining.info Accelia Inc. + IFMGA ProGuide + TU Wien + JAIST + TeX Live + Debian Dev GPG: 0x860CDC13 fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13
Re: Debian and Non-Free Services
On Sat, 05 Oct 2019, Norbert Preining wrote: > > If one slenderizes about a particular VCS URL, it means it is where he > > wishes to have pull/merge requests from. Otherwise, what's the point? > > Wrong. I don't care for PR, and accept them as well as patches to BTS, > whatever comes. This is FUD you are spreading. Forgot to mention - one can use git and "that what should not be named" with things like git format-patch / git am in case you didn't know. So I still think having a VCS at "that what should not be named" is better than no VCS field whatsoever ... but then, it is the dark side. Enjoy Norbert -- PREINING Norbert http://www.preining.info Accelia Inc. + IFMGA ProGuide + TU Wien + JAIST + TeX Live + Debian Dev GPG: 0x860CDC13 fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13
Re: Debian and Non-Free Services
> > It's based on a false premise. No one is forced to use any VCS to maintain > > Debian packages. If you don't want to talk to GitHub, send a patch to the > > BTS. > > If one slenderizes about a particular VCS URL, it means it is where he > wishes to have pull/merge requests from. Otherwise, what's the point? Wrong. I don't care for PR, and accept them as well as patches to BTS, whatever comes. This is FUD you are spreading. Anyway, consequence of the whole discussion is that I will remove all VCS fields from my packages. I have enough of that. Norbert -- PREINING Norbert http://www.preining.info Accelia Inc. + IFMGA ProGuide + TU Wien + JAIST + TeX Live + Debian Dev GPG: 0x860CDC13 fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13
Re: Standing behind GNOME Foundation against Rothschild Patent Imaging LLC?
On Sat, 28 Sep 2019, Chris Lamb wrote: > that the Debian Project would publically stand with the GNOME > Foundation against this attack on a cherished sister project of ours > and, by extension, on free software in general? Totally agreed, thanks a lot. I have invested lots of code into Shotwell over the years, and it hurts to see these patent trolls. Norbert -- PREINING Norbert http://www.preining.info Accelia Inc. + IFMGA ProGuide + TU Wien + JAIST + TeX Live + Debian Dev GPG: 0x860CDC13 fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13
Re: Debian and Non-Free Services
On September 14, 2019 12:29:19 AM GMT+09:00, Scott Kitterman wrote: >Is anyone actually doing that? I think this entire thread is nothing >more >than a stalking horse for Ian's crusade to get everyone to use dgit and >we >should just move on. +100 Best comment till now. "Crusade" is the word I should have used in other occasions. Norbert -- PREINING Norbert http://www.preining.info Accelia Inc. + JAIST + TeX Live + Debian Developer GPG: 0x860CDC13 fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13
Re: Debian and Non-Free Services
On Thu, 12 Sep 2019, Ansgar wrote: > That would just lead to packages using these to no longer including the > Vcs-* fields... There are some valid reasons to host packages on Indeed, that will happen. Best Norbert -- PREINING Norbert http://www.preining.info Accelia Inc. + IFMGA ProGuide + TU Wien + JAIST + TeX Live + Debian Dev GPG: 0x860CDC13 fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13
Re: GR proposal: mandating VcsGit and VcsBrowser for all packages, using the "gbp patches unapplied" layout, and maybe also mandating hosted on Salsa
Hi, > Norbert, I'm very annoyed by your wording. "Having an agenda" reads like > if I was writing out of malice, on purpose, just to annoy you. That is No, having an agenda is that you have a clear target which you want to achieve. > Reality is that you have no such opinion, you are just (rightly) pissed > by the recent event around your account being revoked, then reinstalled. > Also, this has to do with the foo-guest -> foo (and the other way around > in your case), which needs to be fixed anyways. So this is IMO not > relevant at all here. Wrong. I simply realized that a system that is managed by a few personals with rather free reign on what to do is not where I want to work. You say github is nonfree, but removing rights on gh is practically impossible, I don't know whether it actually happened. I don't care for the nuclear case that MS decides to shut down gh from one day to the next. The same can happen due to other reasons with salsa, too - and we have seen this just last months. That is not the problem, git has everything I care for, so I can just push somewhere else. I care more for arbitrary actions. And I don't want to say that the removal of my access was an arbitrary action, but I want to say that arbitrary actions are just too easy to happen on salsa with a small management team, personal preferences and ideals. So simply put, I don't trust that in future something similar might not happen out of different and even more strange reasons, while I am quite sure that on GH this will *not* happen. And I consider this more likely than the nuclear action of GH closing down. So please, don't assume anthing about what I think and read my intentions. Thanks. Norbert -- PREINING Norbert http://www.preining.info Accelia Inc. + IFMGA ProGuide + TU Wien + JAIST + TeX Live + Debian Dev GPG: 0x860CDC13 fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13
Re: GR proposal: mandating VcsGit and VcsBrowser for all packages, using the "gbp patches unapplied" layout, and maybe also mandating hosted on Salsa
Hi On Mon, 26 Aug 2019, Thomas Goirand wrote: > forced to either register on the said non-free platform, and use a > workflow which I very much dislike. It's either that ... or I just > ignore the VCS fields, and the VCS becomes outdated, missing my upload, > with a very good chance that it will never get updated. That's really You are mixing unresponsiveness of the maintainer with non-free platforms, and I am sure you do that on purpose to press your own agenda to force everyone to salsa. Even on salsa there are (I am sure, because I have seen them before) packages that are out of date, and you will not be able to push to it if it is a personal project. It boils down to responsiveness and collaborativenss of the maintainer, and is not a question of non-free or not. With any proposal like this the net effect is that those who prefer some other infrastructure than salsa will have an out of date git repo at salsa to satisfy your agenda, and real development will still continue somewhere else. I for my side will not move over again, and if I am forced I will just force-push released versions in one big bunch, and nothing else, while actual development will happen somewhere else. Please, stop you crusade, and simply accept that other developers have other opinions than yours, and other preferences. We are volunteers. Best Norbert -- PREINING Norbert http://www.preining.info Accelia Inc. + IFMGA ProGuide + TU Wien + JAIST + TeX Live + Debian Dev GPG: 0x860CDC13 fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13
Re: debian-private leaked on pastebin, worried
On Tue, 06 Aug 2019, Zlatan Todorić wrote: > Honestly, sadly I think it is mistake letting you back into Project What about reading debian-private and the discussion concerning other groups involved in the hiccup you could see that obviously it has not been settled completely. That was all I said. If you read something else, fine with me. Welcome to my killfile. Norbert -- PREINING Norbert http://www.preining.info Accelia Inc. + IFMGA ProGuide + TU Wien + JAIST + TeX Live + Debian Dev GPG: 0x860CDC13 fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13
Re: debian-private leaked on pastebin, worried
Hi, > In one of these cases there was some overreaction and it has at least > partially (possibly even mostly) been dealt with. Very partially IMNSHO. Norbert -- PREINING Norbert http://www.preining.info Accelia Inc. + IFMGA ProGuide + TU Wien + JAIST + TeX Live + Debian Dev GPG: 0x860CDC13 fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13
Re: anti-tarball clause and GPL
On Thu, 25 Jul 2019, Russ Allbery wrote: > is a *huge* amount of disruption and energy drain because we have to > relitigate endless mostly-settled discussions from the past thirty years > around what source code means. The payoff needs to be correspondingly > large to be worth the effort, and I'm just not seeing it. Strongly supported, thanks for the very clear statement! Norbert -- PREINING Norbert http://www.preining.info Accelia Inc. + IFMGA ProGuide + TU Wien + JAIST + TeX Live + Debian Dev GPG: 0x860CDC13 fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13
Re: anti-tarball clause and GPL
On Wed, 24 Jul 2019, Yao Wei wrote: > I believe that "flat" tarball in Adam's question means tarball stripping > out VCS information, not tarball as a format. > > Also, the clause doesn't disallow the distribution using tarball, but > only define what "source code == preferred form for making modification" > is. So, "flat tarball" becomes object code license-wise. Just one hint, if this comes in I will upload texlive with about a 70Gb tarball as source ... we have 15 years of history of "flat tarball of 4Gb". I don't think that *this* is the preferred form of changes. Best Norbert -- PREINING Norbert http://www.preining.info Accelia Inc. + IFMGA ProGuide + TU Wien + JAIST + TeX Live + Debian Dev GPG: 0x860CDC13 fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13
Re: GR proposal: mandating VcsGit and VcsBrowser for all packages, using the "gbp patches unapplied" layout, and maybe also mandating hosted on Salsa
On Wed, 24 Jul 2019, Ondřej Surý wrote: > > so, why isn't it enough to recommend those things? > > Because you are not the only developer in the whole world? > And when you disappear or just don’t have a time and somebody > else needs to fix your packages, then it’s a heap of unnecessary > trouble to go through because of someones “personal” preferences. Sorry, I spent about 15 years packaging TeX and friends - and I spend most of my Debian time with that. Do you ask me to increase my work load to at least 300% only because of some standardization procedure for the minuscule chance that I am suddenly abducted by aliens? (Or, heretic voice, maybe because it is easier to throw people out when everything is standardized?) Why don't you simply trust those who are responsible for packages that they know what is the most appropriate way? Are we now in a state in Debian that Developers are treated as employees that have to obey and follow the rules, or are we still a group of self-determined engineers that are able to make our own decisions, including what packaging is the best/most convinient, with the aim of building the best distribution? > Debian is a team effort and it always was, although it sometimes I strongly disagree - it is **not** - it is the work of lots of dedicated individuals, not team work. There are some teams that work together, but this is not Debian. > It’s fine to be a different, but when it hinders other’s ability to contribute > sometimes it’s better to bite the bullet and be nice to your fellow > Debian Developers by making your packaging accessible. Again weak. If you want to contribute, unpack the source package and fix bugs, improve packaging, whatever. Then send patches. The maintainer will include that in the work flow - you learn how it works, and next time maybe already do the same. This is not even the slightest reason NOT to contribute. Best Norbert -- PREINING Norbert http://www.preining.info Accelia Inc. + IFMGA ProGuide + TU Wien + JAIST + TeX Live + Debian Dev GPG: 0x860CDC13 fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13
Re: farewell
> I trust you are able to critize technology without attacking people, so > there is NO reason to not speak out. It was **me** who was thrown out for some time, so please leave the call to me to decide what I post here - my trust in the currently responsible teams to give a fair process is currently non-existent. That trust was eradicated within a very short period - and as with fame, it takes a long time to be rebuild. Norbert -- PREINING Norbert http://www.preining.info Accelia Inc. + IFMGA ProGuide + TU Wien + JAIST + TeX Live + Debian Dev GPG: 0x860CDC13 fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13
Re: GR proposal: mandating VcsGit and VcsBrowser for all packages, using the "gbp patches unapplied" layout, and maybe also mandating hosted on Salsa
Hi > Would it not be worth waiting for them to respond to this issue > themselves, rather than immediately firing off a series of emails that > give the impression that you are personally upset about this? Communication with contributors can be difficult and long delayed, mostly due to being located in China and often away from personal device. We have one in our team. The respective packages are still mentined as old svn, not existing any more. Do you think they have time and energy to reading this here and comment? I am personally not upset at all, I just find it not a good idea to *mandate* things that are very personal development practices. But if we want to get rid of some developers, well, this is a way ahead I guess. Best Norbert -- PREINING Norbert http://www.preining.info Accelia Inc. + IFMGA ProGuide + TU Wien + JAIST + TeX Live + Debian Dev GPG: 0x860CDC13 fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13
Re: GR proposal: mandating VcsGit and VcsBrowser for all packages, using the "gbp patches unapplied" layout, and maybe also mandating hosted on Salsa
Hi Thomas, > Then use one? I do use, but several people I know don't. > The idea is to be able to use unified tooling. Currently, we can't for > example easily do a mass-commit on all packages. Or apply a new CI test How do you want to handle permissions? So there is a super user on salsa who can commit to any repository there? I would be well at least slightly surprised to see such changes. > to all packages. And that's even without considering the entry barrier > for contributing to the Debian archive. In for example FreeBSD, it's a > way more obvious how to contribute to /usr/ports. In Debian, it's not. Fine with me, strongly recommend git - anyway, it is already a fact that it is the de-facto standard, so this is a non-argument. My argument is for those developers who might have other ways/interests. > Maybe you could at least consider moving away from Github, and switch to > a platform based on free software? For example own gitlab instance. Or Why? All the data is in the git commits and tags. I don't use anything else there, in particular not issues etc. So what is your concern besides "religious" github hating? > anything else. I'm really bothered by Github, like a few of us are. So be it, but don't put *your* bothering onto others. I am bothered by a lot of things, too, and I don't ask you to be bothered the same way. Thanks Norbert -- PREINING Norbert http://www.preining.info Accelia Inc. + IFMGA ProGuide + TU Wien + JAIST + TeX Live + Debian Dev GPG: 0x860CDC13 fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13
Re: GR proposal: mandating VcsGit and VcsBrowser for all packages, using the "gbp patches unapplied" layout, and maybe also mandating hosted on Salsa
On Wed, 24 Jul 2019, Norbert Preining wrote: > > 1- Mandating VcsGit and VcsBrowser, meaning we do mandate using Git for > > packaging. I forgot to add. If you ever want to go there, you also have to add mandate that the maintainer pushes the most recent versions to the VcsGit specified repository. git is as everyone knows completely distributed, so using it locally without a remote is viable. Even till now I know too many packages where the released versions and the one in the VcsGit are widely apart. Do you want mandating certain push behaviour of developers? Best Norbert -- PREINING Norbert http://www.preining.info Accelia Inc. + IFMGA ProGuide + TU Wien + JAIST + TeX Live + Debian Dev GPG: 0x860CDC13 fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13
Re: GR proposal: mandating VcsGit and VcsBrowser for all packages, using the "gbp patches unapplied" layout, and maybe also mandating hosted on Salsa
Hi On Tue, 23 Jul 2019, Thomas Goirand wrote: > 1- Mandating VcsGit and VcsBrowser, meaning we do mandate using Git for > packaging. I don't see how we can mandate git. What if I do *not* use any vcs at all? And I know enough projects that run on svn, hg, and other vcs. I don't see that mandating git has any reason besides the "appeal to popularity", which at least in critical thinking circles is commonly seen as fallacy. > 2- Mandating using the "gbp patches unapplied" layout for Git, as this > seems to be the most popular layout, and that we need some kind of > consistency. Again, this might be a good idea for a recommendation, but mandating doesn't make sense. > 3- Mandating using Salsa as a Git repository. No comment on that from my side. I will not move there. Best Norbert -- PREINING Norbert http://www.preining.info Accelia Inc. + IFMGA ProGuide + TU Wien + JAIST + TeX Live + Debian Dev GPG: 0x860CDC13 fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13
Re: farewell
Hi Marc, Love love love! I reply to you in private to make sure that my comments are not seen as uttered within the Debian project, which could bring me into just another difficult situation. But in short, I agree with lots of your comments, but Debian is still the best distribution, so I really ask you to work around that, mostly by purging everything gnome related from your installation. More comments in private. All the best, and don't forget, love love love! Norbert -- PREINING Norbert http://www.preining.info Accelia Inc. + IFMGA ProGuide + TU Wien + JAIST + TeX Live + Debian Dev GPG: 0x860CDC13 fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13
Re: Results of the Antiharassment Team Survey
Hi, On Sat, 13 Jul 2019, Marc Haber wrote: > If you stand the chance of being expelled without your case being heard > just on the cause that somebody might consider what you said a CoC > violation, the project should not expect people to speak at all. Agreed. I for my side will try to remember never to utter anything controversial *within* the project realm, but move it out to my blog without aggregation to the planet. > I don't think that Debian silenced based on fear is what we want. At > least it is not what I want. Neither do I. In former times listmasters moderated/banned, and although there have been controversial times (I guess, but I can't remember), complains about listmasters actions have never been reached the level we had this year. I can only assume their (listmaster's) decisions are more "reproducible" than those of AH/DAM. Norbert -- PREINING Norbert http://www.preining.info Accelia Inc. + IFMGA ProGuide + TU Wien + JAIST + TeX Live + Debian Dev GPG: 0x860CDC13 fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13
Re: Cultural differences and how to handle them
Dear Ian, We are aware of your opinions, and your stance toward continental culture. And without doubt you showed this stance again in a very clear way. Thanks. On July 3, 2019 9:54:44 PM GMT+09:00, Adrian Bunk wrote: >On Wed, Jul 03, 2019 at 01:00:42PM +0100, Ian Jackson wrote: >BTW: >Was your longer reply to me intentionally only Cc'ed to >antiharassment/listmaster/leader, or could you forward >it also to debian-project? >There is nothing private involved, and if you want want action to >be taken against me for my statements in this discussion then let's >discuss this openly. This is a common pattern in Ian's emails. I would dare to call it "sublimal threatening". Unfortunately nobody in Debian seems to think that this is harassment, in particular the AH team seems not to think so. Norbert -- PREINING Norbert http://www.preining.info Accelia Inc. + JAIST + TeX Live + Debian Developer GPG: 0x860CDC13 fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13
Re: Debian supports pridemonth?
Hi Gerardo, > On the other hand, nobody but me has spoken openly to say that it was > a mistake to issue that statement. So I'm taking that as meaning that > there is indeed a project-wide consensus that it was ok. I am currently in a dangerous position to utter anything that is not in line with the current main way of thinking. But rest assured, there are enough who agree with you. Norbert -- PREINING Norbert http://www.preining.info Accelia Inc. + IFMGA ProGuide + TU Wien + JAIST + TeX Live + Debian Dev GPG: 0x860CDC13 fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13
Re: Question for Planet Admins: What Should I do if another Developer Removes my Blog
Hi Sam, surprising statements from you ... On Wed, 22 May 2019, Sam Hartman wrote: > The same is true of package maintainership though. We sometimes do > change the maintainership because we're unhappy with how someone > maintains their packages. That rarely uses the formal policy that goes ??? This seems to be new - at least when I became DD some 10+ years ago this was not the case, and it was completely out of discussion to do this. Why would we need "package salvaging" (thanks Paul for that!) https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/developers-reference/ch05.en.html#package-salvaging if we can change package maintainership just like that? I will remember your statement the next time I consider another maintainers packaging efforts insufficient. > As a matter of technical capability we can all do a bunch of arbitrary > things. As a matter of practice we sometimes do things that according > to written policies and procedures seem kind of arbitrary. And if I am not sure what you mean with *we*, but I am sure that most "normal" DD are not allowed to overstep the rules that easily. > It's frustrating if you want hard and fast written rules. But it works > a lot better than if we did try to write down those rules. I agree with you that having less rules would be much better - that is exactely what I proposed back then when the CoC was introduced. But Debian tries to govern even the most ungovernable things with rules. So all in all, your position is very surprising, and I can only assume that the rules and acceptable behaviour you are talking about are others than those that apply to the average DD. Best Norbert -- PREINING Norbert http://www.preining.info Accelia Inc. +JAIST +TeX Live +Debian Developer GPG: 0x860CDC13 fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13
Re: Question for Planet Admins: What Should I do if another Developer Removes my Blog
On Tue, 21 May 2019, Scott Kitterman wrote: > I think it's more open and equally clean for someone who's blog has been non- > consensually removed to be able to put it back themselves immediately (if > they > think the removal was unreasonable) and point the remover at the Planet > Debian > admins. Agreed. If this is not the case, what would come next? Arbitrary take over of package maintainership because we are unhappy with how X maintains their packages. Norbert -- PREINING Norbert http://www.preining.info Accelia Inc. +JAIST +TeX Live +Debian Developer GPG: 0x860CDC13 fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13
Apology and DAM decisions
Hi all, Let me start with an apology for having overlooked parts of Laura's and Rhonda's email in the heat of the discussion back then. Thanks to some fellow DDs who reminded me of these items, I have soon after updated the blog post about Sharp to use the current name (in addition to the previously corrected pronoun). I understand that the criticism of my original blog text was valid, and I will take great care that something similar will not happen again. But I believe that the issue at hand has been conflated with issues about inclusiveness. I didn't aim to harm inclusiveness. I categorically reject any claims that I am anti-inclusiveness, while I allow myself a personal opinion on *persons* (independent of their self-identification). I also apologize for that fact that my communication style in the past has made others feel uncomfortable and was perceived as aggressive. I think that even during the heat of the systemd and coc discussions this was not appropriate, and I will do my best to use the same communication style I usually use on Debian TeX, that is friendly, open, and constructive. I also will take care to listen carefully to advice and corrections, and I want to stress that I do think that Debian should be an environment where everyone matters and is respected, and that there is no place for lowering others based on gender, race, beliefs etc. In cooperation with DAM - and the invaluable help of some fellow DDs - we have reached the agreement about my further status. DAM will write about this in a separate email outlining the agreement and consequences. All the best Norbert -- PREINING Norbert http://www.preining.info GPG: 0x860CDC13 fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13 signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: On Mediation and Warnings
On Fri, 04 Jan 2019, Rhonda D'Vine wrote: > But still ignore the part about the first name. Is that something you > might also be willing to adjust? I had it already adjusted since some time. Norbert -- PREINING Norbert http://www.preining.info Accelia Inc. +JAIST +TeX Live +Debian Developer GPG: 0x860CDC13 fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13
On Mediation and Warnings
Dear all, In light of recent emails and personal communications, I want to make one thing crystal clear, especially in the light of DAM Enrico Zini writing: On Wed, 26 Dec 2018, Enrico Zini wrote: > [feel free to quote or forward this message, and my message that started > this thread, outside of -private] [..] > - When these kinds of issues get to DAM, they are often escalated >beyond mediation, and a lot of energy has already been spent and >frustrated in all sorts of attempts, by multiple people, to make >things better; attempts that failed, or it wouldn't have reached DAM. and Russel Stuart proposing a expulsion procedure with .. On Fri, 04 Jan 2019, Russell Stuart wrote: > Therefore I suggest we alter the expulsion process to give three > warnings, with no more than 5 years (pick a number) between the first > and the last, and no less than 1 month (pick a number) between What I want to make clear that I have received in total 5 (five) personal messages from DPL/DAM/AH Teams: Message 1 21 Sep 2018 17:20:22 +0100 From: DPL Chris Lamb === On Fri, 21 Sep 2018, Chris Lamb wrote: [...] > referring to someone as an "it" crosses an arbitrary line for me: [...] > I have therefore temporarily disabled your blog from the Planet Debian > aggregator. Removal of this phrase would be sufficient for > reinstatement. Message 2 21 Sep 2018 22:13:06 +0200 From: Laura Arjona Reina (not sent from the AH Team address!) === > Quoting from http://sage.thesharps.us/ > "Use my new name (Sage) and my correct pronouns (they/them)". > Please refer to a person or name that person in the way that person prefers. I changed the pronoun that very day Message 3 24 Sep 2018 08:30:58 +0100 From: DPL Chris Lamb === > Reverted in 27ebfff. (I was away for the weekend) (that was the whole message besides quotes of my email) Message 4 27 Nov 2018 15:45:54 +0100 From: Laura Arjona Reina (not sent from the AH Team address!) === Announcing the removal of my blog from Planet Debian. I have answered to her email asking for clarifications, but have *never* received an answer. The original message can be found in 20181225161353.ga10...@burischnitzel.preining.info Message 5 17 Dec 2018 21:23:22 +0100 From: Debian Account Managers Announcing my expulsion. The original message has been attached to the above message posted. I leave the interpretation to the reader. Best Norbert -- PREINING Norbert http://www.preining.info Accelia Inc. +JAIST +TeX Live +Debian Developer GPG: 0x860CDC13 fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13
Re: Censorship in Debian
Paul, On Wed, 26 Dec 2018, Paul R. Tagliamonte wrote: > Please, all, get some perspective and stop with the comparisons to labor > camps, targeted killings, prisons and sentences of death. We sound like You did not understand the meaning of this comparison: The point was that the correct agreed upon and legal procedures have not been followed. And you deliberately removed this part from your email and consideration. It is not about the planet, it is about expulsion that did not follow the rules. This *can* be consider a libel case due to influences on my professional life. Best Norbert -- PREINING Norbert http://www.preining.info Accelia Inc. +JAIST +TeX Live +Debian Developer GPG: 0x860CDC13 fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13
Re: Censorship in Debian
Hi Enrico, > raised issues instead of listening to them. In particular, this part of > your reply to the antiharassment team, that you chose to leave out when > reposting it here on -project: I left it out because I wrote exactly this in my email to you, that I want to keep the answer about who started the discussion private - because I think it is fair that I know who started the expulsion of me, but I agreed to not publicize it. And I thought (stupid me!) I would get an answer from your. I still didn't get one single answer. Also not to the following question about who started this procedure. > > Question 4: several people feel uncomfortable > > - > > If you consider the harassment team different from a hidden military > > court or a gulag general, I expect that those who have deposed complains > > do not remain anonymous. Please let me know who initiated this > > procedure. So where is the difference to a closed military court or gulag general? The expulsion procedure as set out by the constitution, the DAM delegation and DAM description has not been followed. Proper channels have not been taken. The accused has not been heard. Just as a reminder, here is the proper procedure: https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2005/08/msg5.html Has the Debian Secretary been asked for Q? Have I been informed *before* the procedure? Did I have an option to answer and get supporting voices from fellow DD? You and DAM have decided, ruled, and delivered a verdict outside of any regulated and agreed upon procedures within Debian. If I am wrong here, please show us here and everyone where the procedure you have taken has been decided within Debian, and that means with agreement of the Debian Developers. Has there been an GR about this procedure? What do you consider yourself and AH Team? Above the rules? Norbert -- PREINING Norbert http://www.preining.info Accelia Inc. +JAIST +TeX Live +Debian Developer GPG: 0x860CDC13 fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13
Re: Censorship in Debian
09:42 +0900 second update by me: Sat, 22 Sep 2018 08:29:47 +0900 Besides this, please point me to other instances of disrespectful communication towards other members (besides, Sharp is not a member of Debian). I have published about 400 or more posts on my site. Please explain me what your definition is of persistent pattern even if you take the above one into account, and how your definition applies to me. Question 2: tone that is inappropriate for Planet Debian My post consists mostly of quotes from blogs aggregated on Debian Planet. Where in specific is the "inappropriate tone"? Furthermore, this post is modeled after Lars Wirzenius original post On Norbert Preining, Sarah Sharp, and Debian [2] Please explain why his post is not considered "inappropriate" and he has not been banished from Debian Planet! Question 3: not to harm --- I clearly stated my gratitude for his long work for Debian, despite our obvious differences in opinions. I honor his work, even if I disagree with some things Lars has proposed and forwarded within Debian. Please explain why you feel like this post is harming, in particular who, how, and why? References [1] https://www.preining.info/blog/2018/09/sharp-did-it-again/ [2] https://blog.liw.fi/posts/preining/ On Tue, 27 Nov 2018, Laura Arjona Reina wrote: > Hello Norbert, > > I'm writing to you on behalf of the Debian anti-harassment team. > We had been asked to evaluate your long term behaviour, > after one high-visibility instance of disrespect on Planet Debian. > > We notice that there is a persistent pattern of disrespectful communication > towards other members of the community. > > In addition to this, we believe the recently published post > https://www.preining.info/blog/2018/11/on-lars-wirzenius-fun-and-debian/ > has a tone that is inappropriate for Planet Debian. > > Maybe it's written with no intention to do harm, but it seems it's not written > to *not do harm* either. The result is several people feeling uncomfortable > and undermining of efforts to improve the health of the community. > > Therefore, regardless of other actions that may be taken, I have removed > your blog from Planet Debian. > > Regards, > Laura Arjona Reina > https://wiki.debian.org/LauraArjona -- PREINING Norbert http://www.preining.info Accelia Inc. +JAIST +TeX Live +Debian Developer GPG: 0x860CDC13 fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13 --- End Message --- --- Begin Message --- Hello, recently we got contacted with complaints about your attitude and behaviour in Debian. Looking deeper into this, it appears to be a long history and our impression is that you seem to ignore the issues raised while attacking the people who raise them. This appears on both, planet and mailing lists, with some posts calling[1] you[2] out, and you being temporarily[3] removed from planet. Not that other[4] posts[5] from you seem to be respectful or constructive, nor does it appear to be the[6] case[7] with[8] loads[9] of[10] mailing[11] list[12] posts[13]. This is damaging the working environment in the project, with people needing to step[14] in[15] to restore a decent working environmet after one of your interventions. These issues have[16] been[17] raised[18] to you[19] several[20] times[21] over[22] the years, and you have normally responded by denying the issues and attacking the people who tried to raise them. See for example[23]. On nov 27, the antiharassment team removed your blog post from Planet again, because of yet another reiteration of these problems. Your response, even though it was framed like asking questions, again it read as an accusation to the people, a delegated team in this case, who, once again, called you out. On dec 4, you have unilaterally readded yourself to Planet Debian. This has gone on for long enough. We do not believe that you currently have any intention of being a constructive member of Debian, and we see little hope for improvement as it is. Therefore, we are revoking your status as a Debian Developer with immediate effect. You remain a Debian Maintainer for a minimum of 6 months, after which you can apply for getting your Debian Developer status back. All packages in which you are currently listed as maintainer or uploader will be added to your Debian Maintainer whitelist as soon as possible. Your blog has been removed again from Planet Debian, and will remain so for 3 months. After 3 months you can ask any DD or the Planet admins to readd your feed. After a minimum of 6 months you can apply to get your Debian Developer status back by mailing da-mana...@debian.org We are sending this email privately, leaving its disclosure as your decision (although traces in public databases are unavoidable)
Re: Let's Stop Getting Torn Apart by Disagreement: Concerns about the Technical Committee
On Mon, 06 Nov 2017, Russ Allbery wrote: > *This* is where I see the true source of the *ongoing* division in the > community. It's not over the technical decision. It's not even over the > decision-making process. It's that some people, most (but not all) of > whom seem to be opponents of systemd, are so completely confident that > they're right and that theirs is the only ethical position possible that > they repeatedly accuse anyone who disagrees with them of bad faith. As if systemd supporters aren't exhibiting the same traits ... Just blame one side and be happy. Norbert -- PREINING Norbert http://www.preining.info Accelia Inc. +JAIST +TeX Live +Debian Developer GPG: 0x860CDC13 fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13
Re: vmdebootstrap sprint report
> only. It's scary to think that its intention is to also replace a tool like > bootstrap-vz that has been used for years, is currently maintained and is > pretty stable. Specially when not even mentioning this to the Debian Cloud > Team. Read up on recent - let's say - slightly surprising and unconcerted forceful takeover of live-build. It speaks stories about what has become possible in Debian. Norbert ---- PREINING, Norbert http://www.preining.info JAIST, Japan TeX Live & Debian Developer GPG: 0x860CDC13 fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13
Re: "Do you want to mount the drive, 'cancel' or 'allow'?"
> Please save your rants for when you are in the bar with your friends.
I don't see where *I* did write some rants, I just asked for
understanding of the users' problems.
And with all your suggestions there is one problem - nobody but
initiated can actually contribute documentation.
Since I broke my own promise not to get involved in any d-p -r d-d
thread on systemd*, I stop here and wish you all the best.
Enjoy
Norbert
On Wed, 23 Sep 2015, Ian Jackson wrote:
> Norbert Preining writes ("Re: "Do you want to mount the drive, 'cancel' or
> 'allow'?""):
> > On Tue, 22 Sep 2015, Ian Jackson wrote:
> > > If you don't like systemd or policykit, why are you running them ?
> >
> > There is and remains the problem that the current situation and
> > working is not properly documented, nor can it be deduced from reading
> > config files under /etc, which was the case before the switch.
> >
> > Before deriding people who have problems, we as DDs should accept that
> > what we ship now as default works in many cases, but when it does
> > *NOT* work, the user is in a very bad situation - as the system is
> > undocumented and intransparent and without documentation accessible
> > in an acceptable way.
>
> There are a range of possible responses to this kind of situation:
>
> 1. One could conclude that the defaults are unsuitable for most users
> and argue that they should be changed. But, we all of us have a
> responsibility to respect the decisions we have collectively made
> as a project, in some cases with our last ditch governance
> processes. Reopening such debates is not constructive or helpful,
> even if we still disagree with them.
>
> 2. One could conclude that it is too hard or too complex for users to
> choose non-default configurations. If you think this is the case
> then there are a lot of practical things which could be done:
> - The information on the wiki could be improved
> - Alternative unofficial installer images could be provided
> - It could be make easier to make lightweight derivatives of
> Debian (this is something I myself am keen on)
> - You could work on alternative setups in existing Debian
> derivatives. (There is nothing wrong with being a DD and
> also, or even primarily, using and working on a derivative.)
> - Insert your idea here.
>
> 3. One could conclude that the default mechanisms need to be better
> documented or more transparent and configurable. I don't know
> whether the Debian maintainers of the relevant pieces would
> welcome efforts to improve these things, but a _friendly_ and
> _respectful_ approach would be the way to start. Again, of
> course, anyone can edit the wiki.
>
> None of these things involve ranting on mailing lists. Ranting on
> mailing lists about how awful modern pointyclicky integration stuff is
> is pointless.
>
> It may make you feel better, but it makes the atmosphere in the lists
> worse. It discourages the very people who might be able to help
> improve the things you are complaining about. And it does nothing to
> help any of the people who agree with you, or the users who are
> affected by the problems you percieve.
>
> Please save your rants for when you are in the bar with your friends.
>
> Ian.
PREINING, Norbert http://www.preining.info
JAIST, Japan TeX Live & Debian Developer
GPG: 0x860CDC13 fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13
Re: "Do you want to mount the drive, 'cancel' or 'allow'?"
On Tue, 22 Sep 2015, Ian Jackson wrote: > If you don't like systemd or policykit, why are you running them ? There is and remains the problem that the current situation and working is not properly documented, nor can it be deduced from reading config files under /etc, which was the case before the switch. Before deriding people who have problems, we as DDs should accept that what we ship now as default works in many cases, but when it does *NOT* work, the user is in a very bad situation - as the system is undocumented and intransparent and without documentation accessible in an acceptable way. I for myself as DD can say that I am one of the lucky ones as most things work on my laptop, but I *can*not*help* (as DD!) anyone having problems with the whole policykit/systemd/whatever conglomerate of programs. That was probably not the best idea from a distributions point of view. Now, everyone, go back to rant about users who cannot fix things themselves anymore - because only users who can are the first responsability of Debian. Norbert ---- PREINING, Norbert http://www.preining.info JAIST, Japan TeX Live & Debian Developer GPG: 0x860CDC13 fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13
Re: Team statistics updated
Hi Andreas, (my email was rejected from the teammetrics-discuss list, administrative reasons???) Rejected due to administrative reasons or so. I will send you in a minute the exact error message ;-) OK. Will be added and updated. Great, thanks! debian-tex Good pkg-tetex tetexcvs Forget it, this is dead. No need to deal with it. tetex was removed from Debian 2 (or 3) releases ago. pkg-texmacs Not my piece, nor debian-tex-maint@, so I cannot comment. Thanks a lot! Norbert PREINING, Norbert http://www.preining.info JAIST, Japan TeX Live Debian Developer GPG: 0x860CDC13 fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20150107135244.gf11...@auth.logic.tuwien.ac.at
Re: CoC / procedural abuse
On Fri, 19 Sep 2014, Charles Plessy wrote: Also, the concept of lifting bans only on demand creates a black list as a byproduct, and it is strange to imagine such a list in 10 years containing random people who happened to have misbehaved some time ago, of whom we had no news since, but whose names we remember forever. I think that forgetting would make things easier for everybody after a while. Indeed, thanks for the clear words. Norbert PREINING, Norbert http://www.preining.info JAIST, Japan TeX Live Debian Developer GPG: 0x860CDC13 fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140919094254.gb28...@auth.logic.tuwien.ac.at
Re: CoC / procedural abuse
On Thu, 18 Sep 2014, Don Armstrong wrote: limits as placing a permanent ban, which isn't what I mean. By not But what it is. It is a permanent ban that *might* be lifted by listmasters' graciousness. So perpetrators have to beg for redemption. Hail to the King, we are back to what I always claimed, oligarchy. I consider moving our maintainers' lists to a different provider if this is the way Debian works nowadays. Norbert PREINING, Norbert http://www.preining.info JAIST, Japan TeX Live Debian Developer GPG: 0x860CDC13 fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140918220915.gk8...@auth.logic.tuwien.ac.at
Re: CoC / procedural abuse
On Mon, 08 Sep 2014, Don Armstrong wrote: Let's be frank: GR is such a heavyweight process, that it's impractical for overriding small decisions like this one. This is by design; the people who make decisions in Debian are the people who do the work. Wow, so you are telling me that I am not doing work? And all the other fellow DDs who are not listmasters, debian-project, or whatever the current list or ranks is? All the long list is *just*not*doing*work*? Are you serious? So this is equal under equals...? Go away, quickly, please! All it takes to start a GR is 5 DDs, and 15 DDs to meet quorum. If there aren't 5 DDs who are willing to make the DDs, and 15 DDs who are willing to vote, then it's unlikely that there was actually a majority. You don't get the point, really, you don't *want* to I guess. Jakub is correct: Let us look at the most recent, where I opposed. I don't know the guy. I think he is a jerk. But I am still opposed to the ban. But I surely won't go to the length of a GR. And then you tell me the people who make decisions in Debian are the people who do the work No, it is the people who make decisions in Debian are the people who are in power positions That is all. If you live in the illusion that it is different, I envy you for that. Norbert PREINING, Norbert http://www.preining.info JAIST, Japan TeX Live Debian Developer GPG: 0x860CDC13 fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140908150858.ga25...@auth.logic.tuwien.ac.at
Re: Sponsoring a Tails hackfest?
On Sat, 03 May 2014, Lucas Nussbaum wrote: I am planning to allocate 5000 EUR. Totally agreed upon! Norbert PREINING, Norbert http://www.preining.info JAIST, Japan TeX Live Debian Developer GPG: 0x860CDC13 fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140503084358.gc26...@auth.logic.tuwien.ac.at
Re: The Code of Conduct needs specifics
Oh, and access to science knowledge and to the material means to do spend time doing research is not equally distributed either. When basically the same groups are historically excluded from science Ouch, please. We are far away from the times when women were excluded from science. Don't bring this as an argument/excuse for no scientific background. We are talking 21st century, not 19th. Norbert PREINING, Norbert http://www.preining.info JAIST, Japan TeX Live Debian Developer GPG: 0x860CDC13 fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20140417231258.gj30...@auth.logic.tuwien.ac.at
Re: Code of Conduct: picking up
On Do, 28 Nov 2013, Brian Gupta wrote: but I'll leave you with a quote from one of my favorite authors, which may help put things in perspective.: [...] Which made me oddly happy. I started imagining a world in which we replaced the phrase “politically correct” wherever we could with “treating other people with respect”, and it made me smile. [...] I just tell a story A friend told me once a story why he prefers Austrians over ** (actual nationality deleted): Because *** always speak nicely, we like our neibours, immigrants are good for us, we welcome them, etc etc. And then they burn their houses, bomb their meeting rooms. Austrians are famous for hating all the foreigners, they are stealing our jobs, they are putting the trash into the wrong boxes, they are noisy. But hey, my neighbour, he is not like that, he is such a nice guy and we hang out together all the time and often have long chats. I prefer to be on the side of those who speak maybe sometimes badly, but act properly. Those defending the attitude of political correctness are those who are speaking nicely, but when it comes down to the person, things change rapidly (compare the emails directed at me!) I hope at least a few here understand the above. Norbert PREINING, Norbert http://www.preining.info JAIST, Japan TeX Live Debian Developer DSA: 0x09C5B094 fp: 14DF 2E6C 0307 BE6D AD76 A9C0 D2BF 4AA3 09C5 B094 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20131128220745.gc17...@gamma.logic.tuwien.ac.at
Re: Code of Conduct: picking up
On Di, 26 Nov 2013, Russ Allbery wrote: I think a better statement is that Debian tries to give decision-making power to the people, selected from among those who are already involved in the project, who have volunteered to do the implementation work. .. and are eager to obtain these positions and are working to achieve it. Otherwise I agree. Norbert PREINING, Norbert http://www.preining.info JAIST, Japan TeX Live Debian Developer DSA: 0x09C5B094 fp: 14DF 2E6C 0307 BE6D AD76 A9C0 D2BF 4AA3 09C5 B094 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20131127095321.ge26...@gamma.logic.tuwien.ac.at
Re: Code of Conduct: picking up
Hi Steve, On Di, 26 Nov 2013, Steve Langasek wrote: is not a difficult concept to grasp, and I think your protestations here are nothing but an excuse for ignoring the obvious social norms. What is obvious to you probably not necessarily obvious for me. In other circumstances I would call this cultural hegemonism, this is what US-standards are doing around the world. That's an important problem to guard against when formulating a CoC; but there is a difference between criticism and personal attacks / abuse, and there is no fundamental reason we can't draw a line in the sand against abuse without having a chilling effect on criticism. If you have concrete And exactely this is what I meant: Based on the Code of Conduct I immediately got threatening emails by cc-ing the listmaster to create the atmosphere of warning, and this was sent by a prominent member of Debian. So, here we have already an example on how the CoC can be abused to silence opposing voices. Are you telling me that it is *against* the rules of Debian, the social contract, my Debian Developerism that I am *against* the CoC and I am arguing against it? In all these emails the attacks were directed *at* me from main proponents or supporters of the CoC, except Wouter. So here we have the *perfect* example why the CoC is dangerous. Many of you are *already* now, before finalization, using it to attack me because I am against it. Brave New World in Debian. suggestions for improving the CoC language to *not* have the side effect of suppressing criticism, I for one would be interested in hearing them. So that means that the decision We will install a CoC. has already been done? Right? Am I correct? And yes, I gave *several* proposal for changing the CoC with sentences. I am serious that they are the ones that best describe the reality. And up to now nobody could convince me, nor even bring forth a counterargument against my description of what the status quo is. But since the decision on having a CoC has already been set in stone, and that the proposals of change I sent have been ignored or rejected, I think there is no need to further discuss the CoC, as I cannot do anything against/for it. Norbert PREINING, Norbert http://www.preining.info JAIST, Japan TeX Live Debian Developer DSA: 0x09C5B094 fp: 14DF 2E6C 0307 BE6D AD76 A9C0 D2BF 4AA3 09C5 B094 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20131127095052.gd26...@gamma.logic.tuwien.ac.at
Re: Code of Conduct: picking up
Hi, but even so, remain respectful. Disagreement is no excuse for poor behaviour or personal attacks, and a community in which people feel threatened is not a healthy community. What does poor behaviour mean? What does person attacks mean? Regarding this: Note that many of our Contributors are not native english speakers or may have different cultural backgrounds; see also our [diversity statement](http://www.debian.org/intro/diversity) it is already questionable do refer to things like the above statements. Combined with: Serious or persistent offenders will temporarily or permanently banned from communicating through Debian's systems. Complaints should be made it means that the exegesis of what the above agglomeration of glyphs in the Roman alphabet means is in the hands of those with the loudest and powerful voices in Debian, which does not necessarily mean that the intepretation agrees with other's opinion. Why don't we try to be *honest*, something like Debian is a practical oligarchy. If you don't happen to sit in key positions, you should be careful what you are saying since disrespectful behaviour versus the oligarchs will be punished by bans without recurse. Like in every jurisdiction, Debian is not about true or false, good or bad, but what is declared as right or wrong by the law makers. Following the Code of Conduct I will probably be punished for making jokes about the different gender, different religion, different political opinion, and maybe even different OS. Where is the border, where is the limit. The whole point of what I wrote is that Good behaviour *cannot* be defined. Period. That is the reason we have a juridical system. Laws decide on breaking or following the law, but not on good or bad (behaviour). But laws try to be clear in *what* is defined. All this code of conduct tries to look like a law but contains only wishee-washee unclear statements that leaves only wide open play ground for power plays. The only standardization of good behaviour found in wide spread use are religious based (8 folded path, 10 commandments, ...). Do we want to go this way, becoming a religion? A short Gedankenexperiment: What if someone in the upper ranks of Debian (committee, delegates, secretaries, etc) decides to pervert Debian and starts being *very* active, positively, acquiring a lot of followers, and at the same time a lot of powers by combining some of the jobs or distributing them between friends. Then, (s)he uses this to silence those opposing further steps on grounds of bad behaviour. The educated around here might be reminded of a certain unahppy figure in the 30ies and 40ies in Germany. * Non-legal style documents that allow for punishment are dangerous. * I don't know whether the code of conduct suffices for that, but as with other things, it is a slippery slope, once started, more and more behaviour patterns are categorized and classified. I am against this as long as there is nobody who can give me an evaluable criteria to judge good and bad behaviour. Norbert PREINING, Norbert http://www.preining.info JAIST, Japan TeX Live Debian Developer DSA: 0x09C5B094 fp: 14DF 2E6C 0307 BE6D AD76 A9C0 D2BF 4AA3 09C5 B094 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20131126140714.gf5...@gamma.logic.tuwien.ac.at
Re: Code of Conduct: picking up
On Di, 26 Nov 2013, Sune Vuorela wrote: Last time i felt like speaking up against poor behaviour in debian was when this was posted: http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2013/05/msg01138.html Hahahhahaha, and that is the reason why I consider a code of conduct ridiculous. If statements like this are already tipping on people's toes, then the world is going strange. Lalalalala singing my song of sarcasm that is vital in Viennese life, even if people just don't get it, hahahaha. Norbert PREINING, Norbert http://www.preining.info JAIST, Japan TeX Live Debian Developer DSA: 0x09C5B094 fp: 14DF 2E6C 0307 BE6D AD76 A9C0 D2BF 4AA3 09C5 B094 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20131126212121.ga25...@gamma.logic.tuwien.ac.at
Re: Code of Conduct: picking up
that their behaviour is Undefined: persistent Undefined: bad behaviour WHy not write down: If the list masters feel that you are behaving badly, you might get banned. That would be the *only* correct and proper way to state it. Anything else is creating a wrong illusion. The only standardization of good behaviour found in wide spread use are religious based (8 folded path, 10 commandments, ...). Do we want to go this way, becoming a religion? No. Pu, at least on that we agree ... or better, I don't want to see going in this direction, so I hope we agree on that. A short Gedankenexperiment: What if someone in the upper ranks of Debian (committee, delegates, secretaries, etc) decides to pervert Debian and starts being *very* active, positively, acquiring a lot of followers, and at the same time a lot of powers by combining some of the jobs or distributing them between friends. Then, (s)he uses this to silence those opposing further steps on grounds of bad behaviour. I'm not sure what you're afraid of here, which makes it hard for me to produce a counterargument. ... to silence those opposing ... Which has happened in many places around the world, think NSA. acquires a lot of power. We are very much a meritocracy; this means you Ahhh, here we are. meritocracy, which boils down to oligarchy in our case. can't acquire power without a lot of hard work. Once you've done the hard work, you get to decide how you do it, which could indeed be described as having power; but since it's you who needs to do the Yes, but the meritocracy is only related to your working area. I guess I am not the worst in maintaining my packages, and working quite a lot for them. Still I have no interest *what*so*ever* to become a representative of Debian etc etc. So I will never have any factual power within Debian. Those working in a *very*specific* direction will obtain the power. That is the reason why it is not a real meritocracy, but an oligarchy. the situation, off the top of my head I can think of: invoking the technical committee, having the DPL replace misbehaving delegates, a DPL recall election, or overriding a decision under constitution §4.1.4; I'm Unless all of them have been taken over ... like the parliament in Germany/Austria. Please try not to invoke Godwin's law. Stop this, please! I am from this country. I gave you clear explanation what I mean. I did *NOT* compare anyone here with Hitler at all. I draw an analogon how it is possible to legally attain powers and abuse them. Analoga are not bad. Comparison and Analoga are different. Those who cannot follow them - sorry, I don't care. Defending bad things on the basis of ahh, once more Godwin's law is ridiculous, like last resort, I don't know anything else. * Non-legal style documents that allow for punishment are dangerous. * Only if no human judgement call is made before such punishment is invoked. What is good behaviour is impossible to define, as you said; I therefore think it's better if a team of human beings makes that call, Uhh, ohh, and how are those humans? Maybe some ultra-conservative XX (insert your favorite political, religious or whatever direction)? You and nobody can guarantee that the recourse to humans will do it right actually worked out (see above, Godwin's law). Yeah, sure, the US has the wonderful super-secret court (forgot the name) that should supervise the NSA - and sure enough these humans are doing it right. Bummer, they weren't. No no no. If you write down punitive measurements, then you have to have a *clear*, *uncontestable* definition of what is wrong or not. I'll also point out that in effect, this doesn't actually change anything; our listmasters _are_ already implementing temporary bans for people who are disruptive on our mailinglists. This would only make that officially their responsibility, which it currently isn't. Well, then we do not need a code of conduct. A GR with The listmasters are free do ban each and everyone according to their will. is what we need. It sounds tough, strange. But this is what it is. Not some code of conduct. Not some nice-talking. Facts. Thanks for staying with me till here. And again thanks for the positive discussion, I am sick of unintelligent beings answering just ignorant answers where you see that they haven't even read and understood the original email. Norbert PREINING, Norbert http://www.preining.info JAIST, Japan TeX Live Debian Developer DSA: 0x09C5B094 fp: 14DF 2E6C 0307 BE6D AD76 A9C0 D2BF 4AA3 09C5 B094 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas
Re: Code of Conduct: picking up
crazy comparisons of Debian to the Third Reich, and insinuations that Huu, where? Do you know meaning of the word Gedankenexperiment? If not, then why do you attack me? (Hang-over email maybe?) Norbert PREINING, Norbert http://www.preining.info JAIST, Japan TeX Live Debian Developer DSA: 0x09C5B094 fp: 14DF 2E6C 0307 BE6D AD76 A9C0 D2BF 4AA3 09C5 B094 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20131126215422.gc25...@gamma.logic.tuwien.ac.at
Re: Code of Conduct: picking up
On Mi, 27 Nov 2013, Norbert Preining wrote: crazy comparisons of Debian to the Third Reich, and insinuations that Huu, where? Do you know meaning of the word Gedankenexperiment? Sorry, forgot the link, Merry-Webster: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gedankenexperiment Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought_experiment Especially the Wikipedia is quite clear (mark up by me) Given the structure of the experiment, it may or may not be possible to actually perform it, and, in the case that it is possible for it to be performed, there ***need be no intention of any kind*** to actually perform the experiment in question. Norbert PREINING, Norbert http://www.preining.info JAIST, Japan TeX Live Debian Developer DSA: 0x09C5B094 fp: 14DF 2E6C 0307 BE6D AD76 A9C0 D2BF 4AA3 09C5 B094 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20131126215858.gd25...@gamma.logic.tuwien.ac.at
Re: Code of Conduct: picking up
On Di, 26 Nov 2013, Paul Tagliamonte wrote: You see how even this can be used as an insult or to draw comparisons? Please don't continue to defend such poor behavior. Read my answer to Wouter. I hope it helps you to understand my points, even if you don't like them. In contrast to you I have not spoken out words like insult or poor behaviour in a personal manner. What you are writing is *against* the code of conduct: * assume good faith * no personal attacks So I hope (not really, just for the point) that you get banned. Norbert PREINING, Norbert http://www.preining.info JAIST, Japan TeX Live Debian Developer DSA: 0x09C5B094 fp: 14DF 2E6C 0307 BE6D AD76 A9C0 D2BF 4AA3 09C5 B094 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20131126220124.ge25...@gamma.logic.tuwien.ac.at
Re: Code of Conduct: picking up
On Di, 26 Nov 2013, Paul Tagliamonte wrote: Just because you do not write these words doesn't mean you don't exhibit them. A great example exhibiting the undefinedness and inconsistency of the CoC. Opinions vary to wide. I remain with Assume good faith and wish you a nice day Norbert PREINING, Norbert http://www.preining.info JAIST, Japan TeX Live Debian Developer DSA: 0x09C5B094 fp: 14DF 2E6C 0307 BE6D AD76 A9C0 D2BF 4AA3 09C5 B094 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20131126220748.gg25...@gamma.logic.tuwien.ac.at
Re: Revising the Code of Conduct
Hi all, On Di, 21 Mai 2013, Wouter Verhelst wrote: 1. Do not flame, use foul language, or in general be abusive or disrespectful towards other people on the mailinglists or elsewhere And who defines that? If you can give me a definition of foul language or abusive or disrespectful I would be happy. The old code of conduct was only containing foul, which also was already too much. Nobody can be declared authorative in deciding what is foul/abusive language. Short example: People from Siena (Italy) have a tendency for strong words, very strong words. And between friends it is very common. What is foul/abusive here? in Debian. That type of behaviour is not constructive and can quickly lead to a degradation of the quality of a discussion. Again one of those weasel words, I think Wikipedia calls them... degradation of the quality Norbert PREINING, Norbert http://www.preining.info JAIST, Japan TeX Live Debian Developer DSA: 0x09C5B094 fp: 14DF 2E6C 0307 BE6D AD76 A9C0 D2BF 4AA3 09C5 B094 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20130521093739.ge4...@gamma.logic.tuwien.ac.at
Re: Revising the Code of Conduct
On Di, 21 Mai 2013, Steve Langasek wrote: As one of the most routinely abusive posters on Debian lists towards your fellow developers: not you. Thus neither you ..., logic wins. Wow, being told most abusive posters ... would you kindly use your browser and browse my posts on debian-tex-maint lists and let me know the ratio of you-consider-abusive to you-consider-ok?!?!? I love it when people just blow out unsupported opinions. Norbert PREINING, Norbert http://www.preining.info JAIST, Japan TeX Live Debian Developer DSA: 0x09C5B094 fp: 14DF 2E6C 0307 BE6D AD76 A9C0 D2BF 4AA3 09C5 B094 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20130521152451.ga15...@gamma.logic.tuwien.ac.at
Re: Revising the Code of Conduct
Steve, I openly request an apology from you. That is unbearable: You publicly defamed me by stating: On Di, 21 Mai 2013, Steve Langasek wrote: As one of the most routinely abusive posters on Debian lists towards your fellow developers: not you. Onto which I asked for evidence: On Mi, 22 Mai 2013, Norbert Preining wrote: Wow, being told most abusive posters ... would you kindly use your browser and browse my posts on debian-tex-maint lists and let me know the ratio of you-consider-abusive to you-consider-ok?!?!? If you cannot come up with support for the insult you posted here (which was btw the first personal insult in these threads!) I will take further steps necessary. I consider it not acceptable do spread lies and not stand to them or retract them. Norbert PREINING, Norbert http://www.preining.info JAIST, Japan TeX Live Debian Developer DSA: 0x09C5B094 fp: 14DF 2E6C 0307 BE6D AD76 A9C0 D2BF 4AA3 09C5 B094 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20130522004431.gc31...@gamma.logic.tuwien.ac.at
Re: Revising the Code of Conduct
Wow, I am impressed, 5 emails out of 15150 (current search result on lists.debian.org) makes me: As one of the most routinely abusive posters on Debian lists towards your ^ That is your definition of routinely: 0.033% ? Assuming that you missed 100 other emails that would still remain 1% Thanks for this enlightment on what routinely means in English, for you. Norbert PREINING, Norbert http://www.preining.info JAIST, Japan TeX Live Debian Developer DSA: 0x09C5B094 fp: 14DF 2E6C 0307 BE6D AD76 A9C0 D2BF 4AA3 09C5 B094 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20130522044204.gg31...@gamma.logic.tuwien.ac.at
Re: ECCN classifivation
On Mi, 16 Jun 2010, Berthelot, Brian wrote:
Please provide the ECCN and CCATS number for you Debian GNU Linux
4724-399AZ-41300-FFzz-710
PQFNNN-231098-ZN99-100-42
and of course (od):
000 067531 020165 071141 020145 020141 067543 070155 062554
020 062564 064440 064544 072157 005041
032
Norbert Preiningprein...@{jaist.ac.jp, logic.at, debian.org}
JAIST, Japan TeX Live Debian Developer
DSA: 0x09C5B094 fp: 14DF 2E6C 0307 BE6D AD76 A9C0 D2BF 4AA3 09C5 B094
LOWTHER (vb.)
(Of a large group of people who have been to the cinema together.) To
stand aimlessly about on the pavement and argue about whatever to go
and eat either a Chinese meal nearby or an Indian meal at a restaurant
which somebody says is very good but isn't certain where it is, or
have a drink and think about it, or just go home, or have a Chinese
meal nearby - until by the time agreement is reached everything is
shut.
--- Douglas Adams, The Meaning of Liff
--
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Re: Debian decides to adopt time-based release freezes
On Mi, 29 Jul 2009, Luk Claes wrote: The developers have had the opportunity and still have the opportunity to get stuff done before the release. It's true that developers should probably consider to already be careful about what to upload, but there is still opportunity to do changes till the freeze. Ok, for the Debian TeX Team that means that squeeze will contain TeX Live 2007, and will be like that till squeeze+1 in 2012. That is quite ridiculuos, but I cannot finish TL2009 packages alone and by December. So it be. That also means I can stop working on it at all now, and wait for TeX Live 2010 to come out and package that one. Best wishes Norbert --- Dr. Norbert Preining prein...@logic.atVienna University of Technology Debian Developer prein...@debian.org Debian TeX Group gpg DSA: 0x09C5B094 fp: 14DF 2E6C 0307 BE6D AD76 A9C0 D2BF 4AA3 09C5 B094 --- What the hell, he thought, you're only young once, and threw himself out of the window. That would at least keep the element of surprise on his side. --- Ford outwitting a Vogon with a rocket launcher by going --- into another certain death situation. --- Douglas Adams, The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-project-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Debian, Iceweasle, Firefox!
On Sam, 27 Jan 2007, Piotr Dziubinski wrote: Iceweasel and Firefox are a different products, very similar, but different. Can YOU please explain me what *important* differences there are? If you miss the firefox logo, and the word firefox in the title bar, then ok, well, run stable. Otherwise I would like to see what kind of OPERATIONAL difference you have found: - you still can fall iceweasel as firefox on the command line - you can browse the web *IN THE EXACT SAME WAY* So what is the difference that started to make you angry? Do you know that what has happend with firefox/iceweasel you probably have experiences hundred of times WITHOUT EVEN REALISING?? New packages which override others are created permanently, and the old packages go into transitional state where they ask only for the new ones. BTW: WARNING WARNING WARNING WARNING If you have currently tetex-* on your computer, you will soon miss it probably, but there will be texlive there ... But with the same (or better) functionality. So please stop whining about something which is happening permanently and *makes sense*, and either go to stable, or live with it. And if you are s desperate to have the firefox logo, just download ot from www.mozilla.org and put it on you desktop background. Best wishes Norbert --- Dr. Norbert Preining [EMAIL PROTECTED]Università di Siena Debian Developer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Debian TeX Group gpg DSA: 0x09C5B094 fp: 14DF 2E6C 0307 BE6D AD76 A9C0 D2BF 4AA3 09C5 B094 --- GLAZELEY (adj.) The state of a barrister's flat greasy hair after wearing a wig all day. --- Douglas Adams, The Meaning of Liff -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: !!!!!!!!! MEINE Mailadresse online !!!!!!!!!!!
Dear Funz, dear all! Das ist eine englische Mailingliste, du wirst nicht viel erreichen mit deutschen Anfragen. Translation abbreviated: Please remove the listed email which is spam, because it contains the email address of the girlfriend of the original sender. On Mon, 30 Okt 2006, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: auf Ihrer Webseite http://lists.debian.org/debian-www/2004/10/msg00200.html ist eine Mail online zu lesen, wo eine Mailadresse meiner Freundin [EMAIL PROTECTED] zu lesen ist. Könnten Sie dies bitte von Ihrem Webauftritt entfernen? Ich weiss nicht, warum diese Mail online gestellt ist, aber das dies Spam ist dürfte wohl klar sein und das wenn jemand bei Google [EMAIL PROTECTED] eingibt, er halb auf einer Pornoseite landet, erfreut uns nicht gerade besonders! Also vielleicht machen das die list admins, aber das kann man nicht garantieren. Das Problem betrifft nicht nur dich/deine Freundin, sondern viele Leute. Und die list admins haben genug zu tun um nicht *VIEL* mehr spam auf die Listen kommen zu lassen. Aber 100% klappt nichts. Und wenn ihr euch aufgrund des Entfernens weniger Spam erhofft, so täuscht euch nicht, das hilft nicht. english: Maybe the list admins will do that, but I cannot guarantee this. The problem you are experiencing is not confined to you/your girlfriend, but is a general problem. And our list admins have loads of work to stop more spam coming through on the lists. And if you hope that the removal of this page would reduce the number of spams you receive, forget it, it doesn't work. Herzliche Grüße Norbert --- Dr. Norbert Preining [EMAIL PROTECTED]Università di Siena Debian Developer [EMAIL PROTECTED] Debian TeX Group gpg DSA: 0x09C5B094 fp: 14DF 2E6C 0307 BE6D AD76 A9C0 D2BF 4AA3 09C5 B094 --- TOOTING BEC (n.) A car behind which one draws up at the traffic lights and hoots at when the lights go green before realising that the car is parked and there is no one inside. --- Douglas Adams, The Meaning of Liff -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
