Re: Debian Linux and Non-Free Packages.
On Tue, 24 Feb 1998 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: if you want wide distribution and adoption of your software in the free software community, then use a free/open source toolkit. if you don't care about that then use motif or some other proprietary toolkit. The thing here is that no free toolkit meets my need. so help to make one that does meet your needs. or adapt your needs so that they can be achieved with the free software tools that are available. or both. if you do want lots of people to use your software, and lesstif or other toolkit isn't good enough for your needs then you should join the development team of one of the projects and contribute code until it is good enough. Great proposition. Unfortunately, both lesstif and gtk developers flamed me heavily while I was lurking on their lists :) May be it's my problem though... could be. it's hard to imagine that a lurker would get flamed. people usually only get flamed for saying something annoying. Anyway, if we recall from what we started, the GPL licensing which obstructs my development... that's one way of looking at it. a more accurate view is that you choose to develop software which is incompatible with DFSG licenses. It is your right to develop software however you choose, but you shouldn't complain when your own choices (made deliberately and with fore-knowledge of the licensing problems that you will encounter) prevent you from using GPL-ed software. If you want to use that software, you have to abide by the licensing restrictionsjust as anyone who wishes to use your software has to abide by your license. You win some, you lose some.it's up to you to weigh the pros and cons and make your own decision. The time may come when lesstif is mature enough so that my software can be safely recompiled and become compelely free. I still cannot reuse GPL'd code *now*. yes. that is one of the results of your choices. If you like, I can send you a pilot prototype so that you can compare its look with the one of, say, gzilla. no thanks, i'm not terribly interested in software which i can't modify if i need to. (i don't have motif so i can't recompile it even if it is free) Do you use Netscape? :) yes. netscape has enough utility value to offset the non-freeness. as i said, open source is only ONE of my criteria. a very important one, but not the only one. fortunately, netscape is being released as an open source project next month so this anomaly will be gone. i also have staroffice 3.1 installed. i don't use it. the only reason i have it installed is so that i can convert MS word documents that people occasionally send me no matter how many times i tell them to send plain text. Unfortunately StarOffice 3 can't understand Word documents from office 97 so it's uselessit'll be one of the first things that get removed next time i run out of disk space. maybe StarOffice 4 can do it - i'll try installing it next time i need to convert a Word doc. craig -- craig sanders -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Debian Linux and Non-Free Packages.
Great proposition. Unfortunately, both lesstif and gtk developers flamed me heavily while I was lurking on their lists :) May be it's my problem though... could be. it's hard to imagine that a lurker would get flamed. people usually only get flamed for saying something annoying. Oh, yeah. I was saying very annoying things. Like the one that gtk people broke the X naming conventions. And that the goal of lesstif is theoretically unachievable in a way it is stated on their homepage due to the nature of X... Do you use Netscape? :) yes. netscape has enough utility value to offset the non-freeness. as i said, open source is only ONE of my criteria. a very important one, but not the only one. fortunately, netscape is being released as an open source project next month so this anomaly will be gone. Yes, but I wouldn't get that excited about it. Remember, Netscape uses Motif (and as any other decent Motif product, not only Motif, but some other add-on *commercial* widgets). Thanks. Alex Y. -- _ _( )_ ( (o___ +---+ | _ 7 |Alexander Yukhimets| \()| http://pages.nyu.edu/~aqy6633/ | / \ \ +---+ -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Debian Linux and Non-Free Packages.
On Tue, 24 Feb 1998 Alex Yukhimets [EMAIL PROTECTED]@krypton.stern.nyu.edu wrote: Great proposition. Unfortunately, both lesstif and gtk developers flamed me heavily while I was lurking on their lists :) May be it's my problem though... could be. it's hard to imagine that a lurker would get flamed. people usually only get flamed for saying something annoying. Oh, yeah. I was saying very annoying things. Like the one that gtk people broke the X naming conventions. And that the goal of lesstif is theoretically unachievable in a way it is stated on their homepage due to the nature of X... it may have had something to do with the *way* you said it. people tend to respond negatively to things that they perceive as an attack whether intentional or not. that's something to think about, anyway as i said, open source is only ONE of my criteria. a very important one, but not the only one. fortunately, netscape is being released as an open source project next month so this anomaly will be gone. Yes, but I wouldn't get that excited about it. Remember, Netscape uses Motif (and as any other decent Motif product, not only Motif, but some other add-on *commercial* widgets). which is why porting netscape to gtk is at (or near) the top of the open source netscape wishlist. craig -- craig sanders -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Debian Linux and Non-Free Packages.
On Mon, 23 Feb 1998, Alex Yukhimets wrote: Also on another note, does anyone knoe if there is a graphical front end to the ipfwadm (Firewall) program? If not then I am currently considering writing one. The current plan is to produce both a ncurses version, and a HTML version. But why reinvent the wheel if there is already one. I hope you'll put it under the GPL. Hope you wouldn't :) Since I wouldn't be able to create a Motif interface in case you put it under GPL. I am having a big problems with GPL'd software now: I am writing a Motif clone of WS_FTP and while the front-end is almost ready, I am forced to write my own back-end because the usable ftp software is GPL'd! I feel more then frustrated about it now. You must also realise that some people don't have motif, so that this doesn't affect them. There is also the static motif option (i'm guessing here...), like the gimp-smotif package, is there not? I would like a front end to ipfwadm, as I have no idea how to use it... I haven't spent my customary hour reading docs on it yet... Here's another question, is there a usermod frontend? For example, setting groups and things? Michael Beattie ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) --- Windows: the world's first commercially successful virus! --- Debian GNU/Linux Ooohh You are missing out! -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Debian Linux and Non-Free Packages.
Also on another note, does anyone knoe if there is a graphical front end to the ipfwadm (Firewall) program? If not then I am currently considering writing one. The current plan is to produce both a ncurses version, and a HTML version. But why reinvent the wheel if there is already one. yes, if you are in hamm, install the dotfile generator, if not, then http://www.imada.ou.dk/~blackie/dotfile/ It supports emacs, bash, ipfwadm, procmail, and a few others, more to come.. -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Debian Linux and Non-Free Packages.
On Mon, 23 Feb 1998, Alex Yukhimets wrote: Also on another note, does anyone knoe if there is a graphical front end to the ipfwadm (Firewall) program? If not then I am currently considering writing one. The current plan is to produce both a ncurses version, and a HTML version. But why reinvent the wheel if there is already one. I hope you'll put it under the GPL. Hope you wouldn't :) Since I wouldn't be able to create a Motif interface in case you put it under GPL. I am having a big problems with GPL'd software now: I am writing a Motif clone of WS_FTP and while the front-end is almost ready, I am forced to write my own back-end because the usable ftp software is GPL'd! I feel more then frustrated about it now. Q: ouch! it hurts when i do this. A: don't do that then. in other words, if motif is causing you problems then don't use motif. there are several GPL-ed alternatives available, including lesstif. craig -- craig sanders -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Debian Linux and Non-Free Packages.
I hope you'll put it under the GPL. Hope you wouldn't :) Since I wouldn't be able to create a Motif interface in case you put it under GPL. I am having a big problems with GPL'd software now: I am writing a Motif clone of WS_FTP and while the front-end is almost ready, I am forced to write my own back-end because the usable ftp software is GPL'd! I feel more then frustrated about it now. Q: ouch! it hurts when i do this. A: don't do that then. in other words, if motif is causing you problems then don't use motif. there are several GPL-ed alternatives available, including lesstif. Hi. I expected this :) Guys, what I am doing is a high-quality gui programming. (sorry if it sounds a bit ... not humble). Even Motif is not enough for this kind of task. I am using most of the features of Motif 2.0 (those which are also present in 2.1) - this rules lesstif out. And still, it was not enough. I even thought of using the VERY non-free, (check out the prices on www.klg.com), the XRT PDS widget set for Motif. There were several other alternatives though, due to the very long history of Motif many free widgets were created. I compared several of them and found that the gain from XRT PDS would be minimal, ended up with using some free (but still Motif-based) widgets (XbaeMatrix comes to mind). If you like, I can send you a pilot prototype so that you can compare its look with the one of, say, gzilla. Thanks. Alex Y. -- _ _( )_ ( (o___ +---+ | _ 7 |Alexander Yukhimets| \()| http://pages.nyu.edu/~aqy6633/ | / \ \ +---+ -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Debian Linux and Non-Free Packages.
On Tue, 24 Feb 1998, Alex Yukhimets wrote: Guys, what I am doing is a high-quality gui programming. (sorry if it sounds a bit ... not humble). Even Motif is not enough for this kind of task. I am using most of the features of Motif 2.0 (those which are also present in 2.1) - this rules lesstif out. And still, it was not enough. I even thought of using the VERY non-free, (check out the prices on www.klg.com), the XRT PDS widget set for Motif. There were several other alternatives though, due to the very long history of Motif many free widgets were created. I compared several of them and found that the gain from XRT PDS would be minimal, ended up with using some free (but still Motif-based) widgets (XbaeMatrix comes to mind). that's fine, you can program in whatever toolkit you prefer. however, you have to accept the fact that some of your choices may be incompatible with free software licensing. it's up to you...make your choice and stick with it. there are advantages and disadvantages with whatever you choose. if you want wide distribution and adoption of your software in the free software community, then use a free/open source toolkit. if you don't care about that then use motif or some other proprietary toolkit. if you do want lots of people to use your software, and lesstif or other toolkit isn't good enough for your needs then you should join the development team of one of the projects and contribute code until it is good enough. If you like, I can send you a pilot prototype so that you can compare its look with the one of, say, gzilla. no thanks, i'm not terribly interested in software which i can't modify if i need to. (i don't have motif so i can't recompile it even if it is free) For me, the look and feel of a program is not as important as it's technical merits. Openness of the code is a heavily weighted factor in my judgement of technical merit - being completely open source with no dependancies on non-free stuff scores very high, not being completely free scores extremely low. It's not the only factor, but it's a very important one. craig -- craig sanders -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Debian Linux and Non-Free Packages.
Graham Lillico +44 1785 248131 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Also on another note, does anyone knoe if there is a graphical front end to the ipfwadm (Firewall) program? If not then I am currently considering writing one. The current plan is to produce both a ncurses version, and a HTML version. But why reinvent the wheel if there is already one. Check out http://www.fen.baynet.de/~ft114/FCT/index.htm It is not exactly what you are looking for, as it creates firewall rules interactively via a CGI Interface. Neat thing. Ciao, Martin -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Debian Linux and Non-Free Packages.
that's fine, you can program in whatever toolkit you prefer. Thanks :) however, you have to accept the fact that some of your choices may be incompatible with free software licensing. Sure. if you want wide distribution and adoption of your software in the free software community, then use a free/open source toolkit. if you don't care about that then use motif or some other proprietary toolkit. The thing here is that no free toolkit meets my need. if you do want lots of people to use your software, and lesstif or other toolkit isn't good enough for your needs then you should join the development team of one of the projects and contribute code until it is good enough. Great proposition. Unfortunately, both lesstif and gtk developers flamed me heavily while I was lurking on their lists :) May be it's my problem though... Anyway, if we recall from what we started, the GPL licensing which obstructs my development... The time may come when lesstif is mature enough so that my software can be safely recompiled and become compelely free. I still cannot reuse GPL'd code *now*. If you like, I can send you a pilot prototype so that you can compare its look with the one of, say, gzilla. no thanks, i'm not terribly interested in software which i can't modify if i need to. (i don't have motif so i can't recompile it even if it is free) Do you use Netscape? :) Thanks. Alex Y. -- _ _( )_ ( (o___ +---+ | _ 7 |Alexander Yukhimets| \()| http://pages.nyu.edu/~aqy6633/ | / \ \ +---+ -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Debian Linux and Non-Free Packages.
Could someone please explain the concept of Non-Free Packages please (i.e. Pine etc). These are well explained at http://www.debian.org/social_contract.html It is just that I don't understand why other distributions can include them in there official releases, where as debain can not. Because we are idealists, and they are not. -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Debian Linux and Non-Free Packages.
On Mon, Feb 23, 1998 at 02:11:44PM +, Graham Lillico +44 1785 248131 wrote: Could someone please explain the concept of Non-Free Packages please (i.e. Pine etc). Please read Debian's Social Contract at http://www.debian.org/social_contract.html Included on that page you'll find the Debian Free Software Guidlines (short: DFSG). It is just that I don't understand why other distributions can include them in there official releases, where as debain can not. The most important goal of Debian is to produce and maintain a _free_ distribution in the sense of GPL or better DFSG. This means that any piece of software that is included in our main distribution must comply with the DFSG. We also encourage software authors to distribute their software under the GPL. Software that does not comply with the DFSG has to be put into the non-free part if distribution is allowed. If the software itself is distributed under a free license but depends on non-free parts (like mosaic+motif, kde+qt) it may go into the contrib part of the distribution. Also on another note, does anyone knoe if there is a graphical front end to the ipfwadm (Firewall) program? If not then I am currently considering writing one. The current plan is to produce both a ncurses version, and a HTML version. But why reinvent the wheel if there is already one. I hope you'll put it under the GPL. Regards, Joey -- / Martin Schulze * [EMAIL PROTECTED] * 26129 Oldenburg / / http://home.pages.de/~joey/ / Unix is user friendly ... It's just picky about it's friends / pgpZk5J95JqVP.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Debian Linux and Non-Free Packages.
On Mon, 23 Feb 1998, Graham Lillico +44 1785 248131 wrote: Could someone please explain the concept of Non-Free Packages please (i.e. Pine etc). Take a look at /usr/doc/debian/FAQ/debian-faq.txt.gz in section 5.6.1 where this is explained. It is just that I don't understand why other distributions can include them in there official releases, where as debain can not. Perhaps this is explained by reading their respective release notes carefully. You can't legally publish a piece of software under a less restrictive licence than that under which you obtained it. Cheers, -- David Wright, Open University, Earth Science Department, Milton Keynes MK7 6AA U.K. email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] tel: +44 1908 653 739 fax: +44 1908 655 151 -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: Debian Linux and Non-Free Packages.
Also on another note, does anyone knoe if there is a graphical front end to the ipfwadm (Firewall) program? If not then I am currently considering writing one. The current plan is to produce both a ncurses version, and a HTML version. But why reinvent the wheel if there is already one. I hope you'll put it under the GPL. Hope you wouldn't :) Since I wouldn't be able to create a Motif interface in case you put it under GPL. I am having a big problems with GPL'd software now: I am writing a Motif clone of WS_FTP and while the front-end is almost ready, I am forced to write my own back-end because the usable ftp software is GPL'd! I feel more then frustrated about it now. Alex Y. -- _ _( )_ ( (o___ +---+ | _ 7 |Alexander Yukhimets| \()| http://pages.nyu.edu/~aqy6633/ | / \ \ +---+ -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
