Re: Re: Quoting Style

[Brian Potkin]

In posting of the month John Hasler very perceptively said:

Then why do you send it?

There is no answer to that.

But being -user . . . .


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Re: Quoting Style

[Lisi Reisz]

On Saturday 17 August 2013 00:22:21 Bob Proulx wrote:
> > Some mail/news readers such as Thunderbird can apply different color and
> > format to quoted text. This makes reading much easier.
>
> But those colors are picked by the reader, not the writer.  When the
> writer says blue there isn't any connection to the color applied by
> the reader's mail-user-agent which could be green or red or other
> color.  So I think the writer here was talking about html colors.

My client only uses the colours I have chosen for correctly quoted text.  For 
random other methods of quoting mine stays in the base colour (in my case 
black on white).

Lisi


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Re: Quoting Style

[Lisi Reisz]

On Saturday 17 August 2013 15:47:37 Kim Christensen wrote:
> > No! It's easier to read mails, when bottom or inline posting is
> > used
>
> I suggest another name for this -- "contextual quoting"!

I have always before heard it called interleaved posting.

Lisi


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Re: Quoting Style

[Kim Christensen]

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On 2013-08-16 16:03, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> No! It's easier to read mails, when bottom or inline posting is
> used

I suggest another name for this -- "contextual quoting"!

That is, the art of only quoting what is needed for the sake of
argument/discussion; putting your reply under each block, for
contextual reference - in sequence.

Doesn't need any extra configuration of the MUA, end-user only needs
to be a little more specific than referencing the entire conversation...

Is it really _that_ hard?

- -- kchr

|_|O|_|
|_|_|O|  Kim Christensen
|O|O|O|  http://technopragmatics.org
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Re: Quoting Style

[Pascal Hambourg]

Jerry Stuckle a écrit :
> On 8/17/2013 9:05 AM, Pascal Hambourg wrote:
>> Jerry Stuckle a écrit :
>>>
>>> The important point here, as Bob pointed out, is that the coloring
>>> appears on YOUR system.
>>
>> Of course. I didn't say otherwise. It makes reading and replying easier
>> for ME, if that was not clear enough for you.
>>
>>> It does not appear on MY system (or most of the other people here).
>>
>> I do not care how it appears on YOUR system.
> 
> If you read back in this thread, the whole point was the OP was claiming 
> how the colors showed up on his system,

Yes. On HIS system. And I proposed an explanation of why these colors
showed up.

> and he expected the same colors to appear on other people's systems.

I did not read that. Any reference please ?

> And unlike you, I DO care how the message appears on your system. 
> That's why I use the appropriate quoting style and reply methods.

Don't be nasty, you know I didn't mean it that way. You don't care
whether quoted text appears in blue or brown, bold or italic... on my
system either.


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Re: Quoting Style

[John Hasler]

Pascal Hambourg writes:
> I do not care how it appears on YOUR system.

Then why do you send it?
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA


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Re: Quoting Style

[Jerry Stuckle]

On 8/17/2013 9:05 AM, Pascal Hambourg wrote:

Jerry Stuckle a écrit :

On 8/17/2013 6:33 AM, Pascal Hambourg wrote:

Bob Proulx a écrit :

Pascal Hambourg wrote:

Some mail/news readers such as Thunderbird can apply different color and
format to quoted text. This makes reading much easier.

But those colors are picked by the reader, not the writer.

The coloring also applies to the quoted text in the reply window, even
though it is plain text. This also makes replying using
conversational/interleaved quoting easier IMO.


The important point here, as Bob pointed out, is that the coloring
appears on YOUR system.


Of course. I didn't say otherwise. It makes reading and replying easier
for ME, if that was not clear enough for you.


It does not appear on MY system (or most of the other people here).


I do not care how it appears on YOUR system.




If you read back in this thread, the whole point was the OP was claiming 
how the colors showed up on his system, and he expected the same colors 
to appear on other people's systems.


And unlike you, I DO care how the message appears on your system. 
That's why I use the appropriate quoting style and reply methods.



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Re: Quoting Style

[Pascal Hambourg]

Jerry Stuckle a écrit :
> On 8/17/2013 6:33 AM, Pascal Hambourg wrote:
>> Bob Proulx a écrit :
>>> Pascal Hambourg wrote:
 Some mail/news readers such as Thunderbird can apply different color and
 format to quoted text. This makes reading much easier.
>>> But those colors are picked by the reader, not the writer.
>> The coloring also applies to the quoted text in the reply window, even
>> though it is plain text. This also makes replying using
>> conversational/interleaved quoting easier IMO.
> 
> The important point here, as Bob pointed out, is that the coloring 
> appears on YOUR system.

Of course. I didn't say otherwise. It makes reading and replying easier
for ME, if that was not clear enough for you.

> It does not appear on MY system (or most of the other people here).

I do not care how it appears on YOUR system.


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Re: Quoting Style

[Jerry Stuckle]

On 8/17/2013 6:33 AM, Pascal Hambourg wrote:

Bob Proulx a écrit :

Pascal Hambourg wrote:

Some mail/news readers such as Thunderbird can apply different color and
format to quoted text. This makes reading much easier.


But those colors are picked by the reader, not the writer.


The coloring also applies to the quoted text in the reply window, even
though it is plain text. This also makes replying using
conversational/interleaved quoting easier IMO.




The important point here, as Bob pointed out, is that the coloring 
appears on YOUR system.  It does not appear on MY system (or most of the 
other people here).


Whatever color setting you have are fine for you - but don't expect 
others to see the same colors.  They won't.



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Re: Quoting Style

[Pascal Hambourg]

Bob Proulx a écrit :
> Pascal Hambourg wrote:
>> Some mail/news readers such as Thunderbird can apply different color and
>> format to quoted text. This makes reading much easier.
> 
> But those colors are picked by the reader, not the writer.

The coloring also applies to the quoted text in the reply window, even
though it is plain text. This also makes replying using
conversational/interleaved quoting easier IMO.


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Re: Using Thunderbird to reply to a mailing list Was Re: Quoting Style

[Chris Bannister]

On Fri, Aug 16, 2013 at 05:35:40PM +0100, Lisi Reisz wrote:
> I need to apologise to the list.  I was trying to alter my usual method of 
> replying to the list to one that still worked properly, I thought.  Clearly 
> it didn't and I have broken the thread.  So I shall resend the original of 
> this by my usual method.
> 
> :-((

No, it didn't break the thread. It looks all normal here. 

-- 
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who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing." --- Malcolm X


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Re: Quoting Style

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Fri, 2013-08-16 at 17:22 -0600, Bob Proulx wrote:
> Pascal Hambourg wrote:
> > Bob Proulx a écrit :
> > > Blue?  You mean as in html email?  Colors will be lost entirely when
> > > reading the mail as plain text.
> > 
> > Some mail/news readers such as Thunderbird can apply different color and
> > format to quoted text. This makes reading much easier.
> 
> But those colors are picked by the reader, not the writer.  When the
> writer says blue there isn't any connection to the color applied by
> the reader's mail-user-agent which could be green or red or other
> color.  So I think the writer here was talking about html colors.

Or the OP assumes that everybody set up the reader the same way ;). Many
people don't understand that some people customize their computer apps,
they aren't aware what abilities Linux has got to fit to the users
needs, completely without programming.

It's very simple, the standard everybody can read is plain text, 7-bit
ASCII and a smart user will use a fixed and not a proportional font. You
can read it on Braille, black and white, green and red. Even some Linux
users guess that everybody has got the same fonts installed, the same
monitor resolution etc..


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Re: Quoting Style

[Bob Proulx]

Pascal Hambourg wrote:
> Bob Proulx a écrit :
> > Blue?  You mean as in html email?  Colors will be lost entirely when
> > reading the mail as plain text.
> 
> Some mail/news readers such as Thunderbird can apply different color and
> format to quoted text. This makes reading much easier.

But those colors are picked by the reader, not the writer.  When the
writer says blue there isn't any connection to the color applied by
the reader's mail-user-agent which could be green or red or other
color.  So I think the writer here was talking about html colors.

Bob


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Re: Using Thunderbird to reply to a mailing list (Was Re: Quoting Style)

[David Guntner]

Lisi Reisz grabbed a keyboard and wrote:
> Hopefully this will now not break the threading.

I looked at your original reply and I'm not sure how it broke anything;
I saw the usual References: line with valid information in the message
header, and I understand that's how threaded message readers build their
threads.  It seems intact to me (in fact the References: line looked
identical to your reply here)

> On Friday 16 August 2013 17:10:33 David Guntner wrote:
>> Regardless of those preferences, on a mailing list where you don't know
>> what mail program someone reading is going to be using, it's always a
>> bad idea to use HTML in posting a message.  Sure, at this point the
>> majority of mail readers can render HTML.  But ALL mail readers (even
>> the ones that understand HTML) can render plain text.  Not to mention
>> the size increase of messages written using HTML, but that's another
>> subject
>>
>> I hope this (rather lengthy reply, sorry about that :-) ) gives you a
>> bit better insight into the matter. :-)
> 
> Having missed Ethan's OP, you have missed the main point of peoples' 
> complaints.  Ethan is refusing advice on how to set Thunderbird to reply, and 
> is doing a most peculiar and unintelligible method of his own, which also 
> breaks threading.
> 
> As a Thunderbird user, could you possibly try telling Ethan again how he 
> needs 
> to set Thunderbird to produce comprehensible replies.  His persistent use of 
> his own peculiar method must be turning off more people that just me.  I 
> didn't even read his last, most complicated one.
> 
> I agree with your comment about changing subjects.  I have changed this to 
> increase the liklihood that, if you reply to my email, Ethan will see and 
> read it.

Well, typically the "Was Re: blah" part would be in parenthesis for
clarity, but that works.  I've added the parens here, though, 'cause I'm
anal about such things. :-)

Ethan:  If you're not just being stubborn about not complying with a
(literally) decades-old netiquette standard (especially after being
specifically requested to do so by other members of this list) and need
help getting Thunderbird configured properly to do it right, please feel
free to contact me off list and I will be happy to assist you.

   --Dave




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Using Thunderbird to reply to a mailing list Was Re: Quoting Style

[Lisi Reisz]

Hopefully this will now not break the threading.

On Friday 16 August 2013 17:10:33 David Guntner wrote:
> Regardless of those preferences, on a mailing list where you don't know
> what mail program someone reading is going to be using, it's always a
> bad idea to use HTML in posting a message.  Sure, at this point the
> majority of mail readers can render HTML.  But ALL mail readers (even
> the ones that understand HTML) can render plain text.  Not to mention
> the size increase of messages written using HTML, but that's another
> subject
>
> I hope this (rather lengthy reply, sorry about that :-) ) gives you a
> bit better insight into the matter. :-)

Having missed Ethan's OP, you have missed the main point of peoples' 
complaints.  Ethan is refusing advice on how to set Thunderbird to reply, and 
is doing a most peculiar and unintelligible method of his own, which also 
breaks threading.

As a Thunderbird user, could you possibly try telling Ethan again how he needs 
to set Thunderbird to produce comprehensible replies.  His persistent use of 
his own peculiar method must be turning off more people that just me.  I 
didn't even read his last, most complicated one.

I agree with your comment about changing subjects.  I have changed this to 
increase the liklihood that, if you reply to my email, Ethan will see and 
read it.

Thanks,
Lisi


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Re: Using Thunderbird to reply to a mailing list Was Re: Quoting Style

[Lisi Reisz]

I need to apologise to the list.  I was trying to alter my usual method of 
replying to the list to one that still worked properly, I thought.  Clearly 
it didn't and I have broken the thread.  So I shall resend the original of 
this by my usual method.

:-((
Lisi

 On Friday 16 August 2013 17:29:58 Lisi Reisz wrote:
> On Friday 16 August 2013 17:10:33 David Guntner wrote:
> > Regardless of those preferences, on a mailing list where you don't know
> > what mail program someone reading is going to be using, it's always a
> > bad idea to use HTML in posting a message.  Sure, at this point the
> > majority of mail readers can render HTML.  But ALL mail readers (even
> > the ones that understand HTML) can render plain text.  Not to mention
> > the size increase of messages written using HTML, but that's another
> > subject
> >
> > I hope this (rather lengthy reply, sorry about that :-) ) gives you a
> > bit better insight into the matter. :-)
>
> Having missed Ethan's OP, you have missed the main point of peoples'
> complaints.  Ethan is refusing advice on how to set Thunderbird to reply,
> and is doing a most peculiar and unintelligible method of his own, which
> also breaks threading.
>
> As a Thunderbird user, could you possibly try telling Ethan again how he
> needs to set Thunderbird to produce comprehensible replies.  His persistent
> use of his own peculiar method must be turning off more people that just
> me.  I didn't even read his last, most complicated one.
>
> I agree with your comment about changing subjects.  I have changed this to
> increase the liklihood that, if you reply to my email, Ethan will see and
> read it.
>
> Thanks,
> Lisi


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Using Thunderbird to reply to a mailing list Was Re: Quoting Style

[Lisi Reisz]

On Friday 16 August 2013 17:10:33 David Guntner wrote:
> Regardless of those preferences, on a mailing list where you don't know
> what mail program someone reading is going to be using, it's always a
> bad idea to use HTML in posting a message.  Sure, at this point the
> majority of mail readers can render HTML.  But ALL mail readers (even
> the ones that understand HTML) can render plain text.  Not to mention
> the size increase of messages written using HTML, but that's another
> subject
>
> I hope this (rather lengthy reply, sorry about that :-) ) gives you a
> bit better insight into the matter. :-)

Having missed Ethan's OP, you have missed the main point of peoples' 
complaints.  Ethan is refusing advice on how to set Thunderbird to reply, and 
is doing a most peculiar and unintelligible method of his own, which also 
breaks threading.

As a Thunderbird user, could you possibly try telling Ethan again how he needs 
to set Thunderbird to produce comprehensible replies.  His persistent use of 
his own peculiar method must be turning off more people that just me.  I 
didn't even read his last, most complicated one.

I agree with your comment about changing subjects.  I have changed this to 
increase the liklihood that, if you reply to my email, Ethan will see and 
read it.

Thanks,
Lisi


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Re: Quoting Style

[David Guntner]

Chris Bannister grabbed a keyboard and wrote:
> Subject adjusted to be more meaningfull.

Just as a side note, for a long time, the typical standard when changing
a subject line to reflect topic-drift evolution of a discussion has been
to change the subject thus:

Subject: New Subject (was Re: Old Subject)

It's not practical to keep *every* old subject if the the topic migrates
more than once, obviously, but the most recent "old" subject is
preserved that way.

Just sayin' :-)

Anyway, it seems that I missed Ethan's original posting, so I hope
you'll forgive me for tagging onto your reply in order to reply to him.

> On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 12:35:07PM -0400, Ethan Rosenberg, PhD wrote:
>> Dear List -
>>
>> I appreciate your CONSTRUCTIVE criticism.  I surely do not wish to
>> have my posts unanswered.
>>
>> Introduction -
>>
>> Industrial standard I think is, top quoting and styled email. 

For literally decades, common E-Mail etiquette (and thus the defacto
standard) for replies (even in one-on-one conversations) has been the
quote-and-reply style that you see here, trimming the parts you don't
need (and any signatures), etc.

Along the way, Microsoft got involved and produced Outlook (and Outlook
Express) as a mail client.  A *lot* (unfortunately) of companies use
Outlook as their mail client, and since OE just *comes* with current
versions of Windows, which lots and lots of desktop users have/had that
as their first E-Mail experience.

Microsoft has a long history of not exactly giving a rat's ass about any
standard that they did not have a hand in the creation of, so they
completely ignored the long-standing etiquette rules, which means that
Outlook users have a VERY hard time of quoting in the proper
quote-and-reply style, and by default does the quote in a way that
leaves the replier top-posting.  I'm pretty sure that's how the whole
so-called "industrial standard" of top-posting came about.

A lot of new people to the net probably used OE as their first mail
program (just a guess here, but it seems a reasonable one given that it
comes with Windows, etc.) and got into that quoting habit.  So now there
are plenty of E-Mail choices, but the new people coming in see what
other people are quoting like, decide that must be the way of doing it,
and start doing it as well.  Plus, it's lazy since they never bother to
remove old stuff that doesn't even need to be in the reply anymore (in
the case of long discussions).  In the case of a mailing list, it just
makes conversations taking place among multiple posters a lot harder to
follow, and a lot of people will stop following a given discussion where
someone keeps posting on top - possibly including people who might have
the answer to the OP's question. :-)  Whereas the inline quote-and-reply
such as you see us doing here emulates a more natural conversational
pattern, thus making it easy for anyone reading to follow the conversation.

>> This is the way my Thunderbird is set.  Mail list requirements are the
>> reverse as I well know.  Therefore, I have to adjust Thunderbird to
>> these requirements.

That may be the way that YOU have it set, but it's not a default setting
for Thunderbird.  I use Thunderbird, myself, and I can assure you that I
didn't have to make any adjustments to create this reply. :-)

>> The material above my reply is blue.

I'm one of those net.old.fogies who firmly believes that HTML belongs in
web pages, not E-Mail (and there are lots of people, regardless of their
net.old.fogie-or-not-ititude who share that thought).  As such, I have
my default compose style set to plain text.  And, since it seems that
there are a lot of people out there who think that making their message
"pretty" is more important than what they actually have to say, I have
the reader set to only *render* plain text.  So no, I didn't see the
"blue" in your text.  (And that's the other thing to consider - not
everyone uses the same mail program you do, nor if they do has it set up
the same way that you do; you can't assume that just because *you* see
something in a given color or style, that anyone else is going to see it
that way.)

Regardless of those preferences, on a mailing list where you don't know
what mail program someone reading is going to be using, it's always a
bad idea to use HTML in posting a message.  Sure, at this point the
majority of mail readers can render HTML.  But ALL mail readers (even
the ones that understand HTML) can render plain text.  Not to mention
the size increase of messages written using HTML, but that's another
subject

I hope this (rather lengthy reply, sorry about that :-) ) gives you a
bit better insight into the matter. :-)

  --Dave




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Re: Quoting Style

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Fri, 2013-08-16 at 14:07 +0200, Pascal Hambourg wrote:
> Top posting sucks.
> Bottom posting sucks even more : it's the same as top posting, except
> that you must scroll down to read the reply.

> Some mail/news readers such as Thunderbird can apply different color and
> format to quoted text. This makes reading much easier.

For you I'm willing to write from bottom to top ;):

Colors won't help.
don't have to scroll, when people use bottom posting.
Here in Germany we read from left to right and from bottom to top, so I
and not when the mail is multicolored.
No! It's easier to read mails, when bottom or inline posting is used




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Re: Quoting Style

[Pascal Hambourg]

Hello,

Bob Proulx a écrit :
> Ethan Rosenberg, PhD wrote:
>> Industrial standard I think is, top quoting and styled email.
> 
> Not on technical mailing lists!  The standard is conversational
> quoting.

Thanks, I missed such an expression to describe proper quoting.
Top posting sucks.
Bottom posting sucks even more : it's the same as top posting, except
that you must scroll down to read the reply.

>> This is the way my Thunderbird is set.  Mail list requirements are
>> the reverse as I well know.  Therefore, I have to adjust Thunderbird
>> to these requirements.

I did not have to adjust anything but plain text. Proper quoting (i.e.
NOT bottom posting) does not require any adjustment.

> What version of Thunderbird are you using?  It is true that old
> versions had some issues.  But if it is a recent version it should
> "just work".

Old versions just did not have the "reply to list" command. However you
could use "reply to all" and edit the recipient list. It's not such a
hassle unless you post heavily to mailing lists.

>> The material above my reply is blue.
> 
> Blue?  You mean as in html email?  Colors will be lost entirely when
> reading the mail as plain text.

Some mail/news readers such as Thunderbird can apply different color and
format to quoted text. This makes reading much easier.


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Re: Quoting Style

[Chris Bannister]

Subject adjusted to be more meaningfull.

On Wed, Aug 14, 2013 at 12:35:07PM -0400, Ethan Rosenberg, PhD wrote:
> Dear List -
> 
> I appreciate your CONSTRUCTIVE criticism.  I surely do not wish to
> have my posts unanswered.
> 
> Introduction -
> 
> Industrial standard I think is, top quoting and styled email. 

Maybe, but NOT on mailing lists!!

If you want help, conform, otherwise no conform no help.

> This
> is the way my Thunderbird is set.  Mail list requirements are the
> reverse as I well know.  Therefore, I have to adjust Thunderbird to
> these requirements.

Umm, no.

(1) New message - usual story

(2) reply to a message. 
Use list reply (or adjust headers to suit)
THEN move cursor around message, replying to the parts you want to
reply to, deleting parts which make no sense to this particular
post.

(3) In other words, "craft" the message

Persistent non-trimming top posters get DELETED!!! (and possibly abused)
but not helped!! This makes their lazyness a waste of time to
themselves, it also fills the Internet (archives etc. ...) with loads of
stuff which is HARD to read and actually a right royal PITA when trying
to search for a solution to a "supposedly" simple problem in a hurry.


-- 
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who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
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Re: Quoting Style Re: Installing mysqldump

[Bob Proulx]

Ethan Rosenberg, PhD wrote:
> Industrial standard I think is, top quoting and styled email.

Not on technical mailing lists!  The standard is conversational
quoting.  Here are some guides that I just now found after a quick
search.

  http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html
  http://email.about.com/cs/netiquettetips/qt/et090402.htm
  http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/mail-news-errors.html
  http://lipas.uwasa.fi/~ts/http/quote.html
  http://www.holgermetzger.de/netscape/usenet.html
  http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

> This is the way my Thunderbird is set.  Mail list requirements are
> the reverse as I well know.  Therefore, I have to adjust Thunderbird
> to these requirements.

What version of Thunderbird are you using?  It is true that old
versions had some issues.  But if it is a recent version it should
"just work".

> To get unstyled, shift+write.
> 
> Start email. Replying, unstyled, requires the send again option
> [CTRL+E].

That is the root cause of the broken mail thread problems.  By
re-sending a previous message you are re-sending the previous headers
too.  This is what is causing threading to be so confused.  Now I
understand the previous thread breakage.

Please do not re-send previous messages after editing them.  Instead
simply list-reply to them.  I am pretty-sure that Thunderbird will
reply to the list appropriately.  But regardless you need to allow
Thunderbird to set up the threading properly.  Just do the normal
thing and follow-up and let Thunderbird do the right thing.

> The material above my reply is blue.

Blue?  You mean as in html email?  Colors will be lost entirely when
reading the mail as plain text.  Think about people using screen
readers.  Plain text is the standard.  I am one of many reading the
plain text content and any html color will be invisible to me.  Even
if I were reading the html I would be rendering it into a terminal and
so still would not see any colors.  And also html email is listed
specifically on the list of things not to send to the mailing list.

  http://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct

Bob


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Re: Quoting Style Re: Installing mysqldump

[Eduardo M KALINOWSKI]

On Qui, 15 Ago 2013, Lisi Reisz wrote:

Just set your email client up correctly.  You don't need to do anything else,
except trim appropriately.


In the case of Icedove/Thunderbird, you don't even need to set  
anything[0]. By default it does correct quoting, you just have to  
press "Reply to list" (which is the default in the case of mailing  
lists), trim and add your comments. To get the weird emails Ethan  
sends, he must have (mis)configured something to different values than  
the default.


[0] Well, perhaps one needs to configure it to not send HTML, as it's  
somewhat too eager to use HTML. But this is not a problem with Ethan's  
mails.


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%TAG%

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Re: Quoting Style Re: Installing mysqldump

[Lisi Reisz]

Sorry, Ethan.  I don't normally keep doing this. :-(
Sent to list where it should have been in the first place.

On Wednesday 14 August 2013 17:35:07 Ethan Rosenberg, PhD wrote:
> Dear List -
>
> I appreciate your CONSTRUCTIVE criticism.  I surely do not wish to have
> my posts unanswered.
>
> Introduction -
>
> Industrial standard I think is, top quoting and styled email. This is
> the way my Thunderbird is set.  Mail list requirements are the reverse
> as I well know.  Therefore, I have to adjust Thunderbird to these
> requirements.
>
> To get unstyled, shift+write.
>
> Start email. Replying, unstyled, requires the send again option
> [CTRL+E]. The material above my reply is blue.
>
> Here is a sample email trail. Points to be noted are marked as follows

Ouch!  No!!!  Klaus explained to you how to do it at 11:12:51 today.  *Please* 
read, mark, learn and  inwardly digest.  This is *awful.*  Klaus has just 
tried again to tell you, at 22:22:08.  Please read it.  I repeat, this is 
completely unreadable.  (Literally.  I gave up trying to read it.)   If 
Icedove were set up correctly, you would also stop breaking threads.

You *must* be able to see that everyone else does it differently from you.  
Just set your email client up correctly.  You don't need to do anything else, 
except trim appropriately.  My email client, KMail 1.9.10, also has a setting 
for telling it if a folder contains a mailing list.  Icedove/Thunderbird may 
have something similar.

Lisi

> < I separate emails with =
> ***
> SAMPLE EMAIL TRAIL.
>
> Dear List -
>
> I have a problem.
>
> TIA
>
> Ethan
>
> reply <<
>
> Dear List -
>
> I have a two problems, #1 and #2
>
> TIA
>
> Ethan
>
> Poster1
>
> You shouild try A, B and C.
>
> HTH.
>
> Poster1
>
> note I quote the reply(s) if they are relevant.<<<
> reply <<<
>
>
> Dear List -
>
> I have a problem.
>
> TIA
>
> Ethan
>
> Poster1
>
> You shouild try A, B and C.
>
> HTH.
>
> Poster1
> ===
> Poster1 -
>
> Thanks.
>
> A. Tried, no luck
> B. Fixed #1 only
> C  Fixed #2 only
>
> TIA
>
> Ethan
> ===
> reply
> 
>
> You shouild try A, B and C.
> A. Tried, no luck
> B. Fixed #1 only
> C  Fixed #2 only
>
> Poster3-
>
> Show us logx, logy, and Logz
>
> HTH
>
> Poster3
>
> reply<
>
> Poster3 -
>
> Thanks.
>
> 
>
> Show us logx, logy, and Logz
>
> 
>
> logx
>
> 
> bla, bla bla
> 
>
> logy
>
> /
> bla, ouch, bla
> /
>
> logz
>
> //
> oluch, bla, ouch.
> 
>
> TIA
>
> Ethan
>
> **
>
> End of sample email trail <<<
>
> Please edit the above to the proper form.
>
> Ethan
> 
> PS:
>
> Ralf -
>
> http://www.twitlonger.com/show/9rlesb
>
> PHENOMENAL


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Re: Quoting Style Re: Installing mysqldump

[Klaus]

On 14/08/13 18:30, Ethan Rosenberg, PhD wrote:

I still do not understand
and really wish to be helpful.

If you could actually edit my sample, it would be DEEPLY APPRECIATED.

TIA

Ethan


Ethan

There are several aspects to this, maybe it's worth going through them 
one by one (this list is probably not exhaustive):


(1) Keeping emails in a thread together.
Your MUA does this for you, as long as you use the reply
function. Whereas what you do, using "Ctrl-E" (Edit-Message-
as-New), doesn't produce the correct references.
(2) Inserting a special character to indicate "this is a quote".
Again, your email client (Icedove) does this for you, if you
use the reply function. It then inserts a "> " at the beginning
of each line of the quoted text, and other reader's email
clients can then format it on screen properly.
(3) Using plain text instead of HTML.
This is probably what you call "unstyled" versus "styled". I
seem to remember that the FAQ for this list requests to use
plain text, though this doesn't seem to be adhered to very
strictly. Anyway, if Icedove is set-up to default to HTML,
then Shift-{Write, Reply, Reply to All, Reply to List}
will produce plain text mails. [1]
(4) Top versus bottom posting.
It is the convention here to keep the quote above your new
contribution. As described before, Icedove is easy to configure
to do this.

One other feature in Icedove I find useful when dealing with this sort
of thing is to have multiple identities. In Account Settings, find the
button Manage Identities. Each identity can have for instance
different quoting styles. [2]

 [1] http://kb.mozillazine.org/Plain_text_e-mail_%28Thunderbird%29
 [2] http://kb.mozillazine.org/Thunderbird_:_FAQs_:_Multiple_Identities

--
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Re: Quoting Style Re: Installing mysqldump

[Ralf Mardorf]

Hi Ethan :)

now I reply to my own mail and fake that I'm you.

Btw. I'm sorry the ">" signs of my example were written by hand and not
done by the MUA reply option and so it seems not to work as expected.

Your last mail shouldn't look like
http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2013/08/msg00503.html .
It should look like this:

On Wed, 2013-08-14 at 19:20 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> Oops, sorry, too many cats and mice.
> [snip]
> CORRECTIONS:
> 
> > First SCRATCHY wrote that he's hungry, then Itchy replied to be hungry too,
> > while doing this Itchy snipped irrelevant content, since SCRATCHY also wrote
> > about his flea collar. After that Tom mentioned to cook Tux and at
> > last Jerry recommended to eat veggie, or to eat a bad posting style
> > called tofu.

I still do not understand
and really wish to be helpful.

If you could actually edit my sample, it would be DEEPLY APPRECIATED.

TIA

Ethan


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Re: Quoting Style Re: Installing mysqldump

[Ethan Rosenberg, PhD]

Oops, sorry, too many cats and mice.

Jerry wrote:

Tom wrote:
> Itchy wrote:
>> Scratchy wrote:
>>> I'm hungry. [snip]
>> I'm too.
> Let's cook Tux under the grill.

No, let's eat tofu.

Regards,
Jerry


CORRECTIONS:


First SCRATCHY wrote that he's hungry, then Itchy replied to be hungry too,
while doing this Itchy snipped irrelevant content, since SCRATCHY also wrote
about his flea collar. After that Tom mentioned to cook Tux and at
last Jerry recommended to eat veggie, or to eat a bad posting style
called tofu.


Regards,
Ralf

I still do not understand
and really wish to be helpful.

If you could actually edit my sample, it would be DEEPLY APPRECIATED.

TIA

Ethan
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Re: Quoting Style Re: Installing mysqldump

[Ralf Mardorf]

Oops, sorry, too many cats and mice.

Jerry wrote:
> Tom wrote:
> > Itchy wrote:
> >> Scratchy wrote:
> >>> I'm hungry. [snip]
> >> I'm too.
> > Let's cook Tux under the grill.
> 
> No, let's eat tofu.
> 
> Regards,
> Jerry

CORRECTIONS:

> First SCRATCHY wrote that he's hungry, then Itchy replied to be hungry too,
> while doing this Itchy snipped irrelevant content, since SCRATCHY also wrote
> about his flea collar. After that Tom mentioned to cook Tux and at
> last Jerry recommended to eat veggie, or to eat a bad posting style
> called tofu.

Regards,
Ralf


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Re: Quoting Style Re: Installing mysqldump

[Ralf Mardorf]

Tom wrote:
> Itchy wrote:
>> Scratchy wrote:
>>> I'm hungry. [snip]
>> I'm too.
> Let's cook Tux under the grill.

No, let's eat tofu.

Regards,
Jerry

Explaination:

First Tom wrote that he's hungry, then Itchy replied to be hungry too,
while doing this Itchy snipped irrelevant content, since Tom also wrote
about his flea collar. After that Scratchy mentioned to cook Tux and at
last Jerry recommended to eat veggie, or to eat a bad posting style
called tofu.

I should ask Jerry.

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Re: Quoting Style Re: Installing mysqldump

[Ralf Mardorf]

Jerry wrote:
> No, let's eat tofu.

Hi Jerry,

does it mean that we should eat veggie, or is it some kind of figure of
speech for being against tofu posting style?

Ciao,
Ralf

PS: You might notice that the ">"-sign is used no
"#---" or anything else, that it can be read from
top to bottom, left to right ;) and that not only irrelevant text was
snipped, but also the signature.

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Re: Quoting shell command lines in Makefiles

[Michael D. Crawford]

Further Reading of The Fine Manual reveals that that way to quote $ in a 
makefile is to say "$$":


test: testexec
for test in $(TESTS); do ./$$test ; done


I'm using CPPUnit (http://cppunit.sourceforge.net/cppunit-wiki) to make
unit tests for each class in my C++ program.  I can say "make test" to
have them all built and executed. 

...

I thought I'd be clever and use the shell "for" control construct to
execute all the tests that are named in $(TESTS) rather than listing
them explicitly.  But it doesn't work because make sees the $ and
expands it before passing the command line to the shell:

test: testexec
for test in $(TESTS); do ./$test; done


--
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[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: Quoting

[Christian Schoeller]

On Sun, Aug 31, 2003 at 01:51:56PM -0400, Travis Crump wrote:
> When I went to university, my dorm had its own linux server with vt's 
> positioned throughout the dorm which pretty much everyone used.  If that 
> makes you feel better... :)

Yippie! Light at the end of the tunnel...

C.

-- 
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MAIL {mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]| wuerde jede Zivilisation unmoeglich
HTTP {http://www.yaup.at.tt}   | machen." --aus: "Kapitalismus und
EBAY {c_p_s!}  | Freiheit" von Milton Friedman 

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Re: Quoting

[Joerg Rossdeutscher]

Hi,

Am Sa, 2003-08-30 um 00.50 schrieb Harshwardhan Nagaonkar:
> http://www.mozilla.org/projects/thunderbird/


Being happy with evolution, nevertheless I gave thunderbird a try.
It looks very nice, _BUT_: 
If you get a html-mail it loads images from the net. I found no way do
disable that. Since this is the best known method for spammers to verify
the email as rcvd&read, this program just begs for more spam. Don't use
it until this is repaired.

Since I know the quality of mozilla I am quite sure they will solve this
problem. Hey, it's a 0.something :-)

Bye, ratti




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Re: Quoting

[Christian Schoeller]

On Sun, Aug 31, 2003 at 01:22:26AM -0700, Paul Johnson wrote:
> Not it's own OS, but it was the second most popular login shell among
> the student body when I was in high school.  8:o)

Good old times... I'm sure when I'm attending university in one year,
90 percent of all students will use Windows[2000,XP,Longhorn].

C.

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Re: Quoting

[Christian Schoeller]

On Sun, Aug 31, 2003 at 03:13:00AM -0700, Paul Johnson wrote:
> Good luck trying to use the network when Windows Update
> happens...apparently it uses UDP and doesn't go through the caching
> proxy.

Fortunately I have stil one year left to prepare myself for such 
circumstances...

C.
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Re: Quoting

[Frank Gevaerts]

On Sat, Aug 30, 2003 at 06:46:38PM -0400, Bijan Soleymani wrote:
> I've tested:
> mozilla mail
> mozilla thunderbird  (mozilla mail without the rest of mozilla)

Is thunderbird able to display diffs correctly ? mozilla mail doesn't
want to display lines beginning with > correctly, it prefers to display
a vertical line...

Frank


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Re: Quoting

[Paul Johnson]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Sun, Aug 31, 2003 at 11:09:05AM +0200, Christian Schoeller wrote:
> > Not it's own OS, but it was the second most popular login shell among
> > the student body when I was in high school.  8:o)
> 
> Good old times... I'm sure when I'm attending university in one year,
> 90 percent of all students will use Windows[2000,XP,Longhorn].

Good luck trying to use the network when Windows Update
happens...apparently it uses UDP and doesn't go through the caching
proxy.

- -- 
 .''`. Paul Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
: :'  :
`. `'` proud Debian admin and user
  `-  Debian - when you have better things to do than fix a system
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQE/UcosUzgNqloQMwcRAhOpAJ0We4+IFYSIo738qhfjxRSP4Vq1swCg0Ryy
muyH+iIS41+oaDRk6LSSRHQ=
=g4Yp
-END PGP SIGNATURE-


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Re: Quoting

[Paul Johnson]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Sat, Aug 30, 2003 at 09:06:26PM +0100, Pigeon wrote:
> I have a windoze partition for one reason only: MS Train Simulator.

I miss MSTS from my ex-roommate's box.  I wrote to Kuju asking for a
port, but never got a response.  8:oP  Hey, if they don't want my
money, they can go without.

- -- 
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: :'  :
`. `'` proud Debian admin and user
  `-  Debian - when you have better things to do than fix a system
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQE/Ua5kUzgNqloQMwcRArZPAJ4n8drv1Y71ACzBCQbDlPCLdXyaBACeIrOK
iBvAxlAdtp9Gv0TRSmMD0Q4=
=cE7B
-END PGP SIGNATURE-


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Re: Quoting

[Paul Johnson]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Sat, Aug 30, 2003 at 06:46:38PM -0400, Bijan Soleymani wrote:
> When on windows I use gnus. It works just like on Debian. People always
> joke that emacs is it's own OS, but that's often a good thing. So I
> don't have to deal with that kind of retardation.

Not it's own OS, but it was the second most popular login shell among
the student body when I was in high school.  8:o)

- -- 
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: :'  :
`. `'` proud Debian admin and user
  `-  Debian - when you have better things to do than fix a system
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQE/UbBCUzgNqloQMwcRAv4fAKCgingPLCHBnZAtHvMZIbh5iw1ARQCdH0ZP
XkkM+Iit7zSwGESM3VmzX1A=
=Ejr8
-END PGP SIGNATURE-


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Re: Quoting

[Travis Crump]

Christian Schoeller wrote:
On Sun, Aug 31, 2003 at 12:19:08PM -0500, Alex Malinovich wrote:

Well, I have been attending a university for 5 years now, and in all
that time I've met one student who regularly uses Linux and one
professor who has used Linux before. It's a relatively small school
though. About 5000 students I think.


Oh, very nice. Up to this moment I was looking forward to my time at
the University of Vienna, but now... No, seriously: you somehow can't
compare it, but on my school (900 pupils) there is nobody who actually
uses Linux, so I used to think that this fact would change at
university.
Obviously this isn't the turth...

C.

When I went to university, my dorm had its own linux server with vt's 
positioned throughout the dorm which pretty much everyone used.  If that 
makes you feel better... :)


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Re: Quoting

[Christian Schoeller]

On Sun, Aug 31, 2003 at 12:19:08PM -0500, Alex Malinovich wrote:
> Well, I have been attending a university for 5 years now, and in all
> that time I've met one student who regularly uses Linux and one
> professor who has used Linux before. It's a relatively small school
> though. About 5000 students I think.

Oh, very nice. Up to this moment I was looking forward to my time at
the University of Vienna, but now... No, seriously: you somehow can't
compare it, but on my school (900 pupils) there is nobody who actually
uses Linux, so I used to think that this fact would change at
university.

Obviously this isn't the turth...

C.

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Re: Quoting

[Alex Malinovich]

On Sun, 2003-08-31 at 07:11, Christian Schoeller wrote:
> On Sun, Aug 31, 2003 at 03:13:00AM -0700, Paul Johnson wrote:
> > Good luck trying to use the network when Windows Update
> > happens...apparently it uses UDP and doesn't go through the caching
> > proxy.
> 
> Fortunately I have stil one year left to prepare myself for such 
> circumstances...

Well, I have been attending a university for 5 years now, and in all
that time I've met one student who regularly uses Linux and one
professor who has used Linux before. It's a relatively small school
though. About 5000 students I think.

-- 
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Re: Quoting

[cr]

On Sunday 31 August 2003 03:00, Paul Johnson wrote:

>
> Any rate, you might want to take a look at kmail.  It has a lot of the
> features of mutt, in a UI that's similar to OE, without the problems
> of OE.  Think of it as OE done the right way.

Do you mind?I'm running Kmail for preference.  It's the best mailer I can 
find for what I want to do.   

Please don't insult it by comparing it with OE which is, by several orders of 
magnitude, the worst.   ;)

cr


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Re: Quoting

[Colin Watson]

On Sat, Aug 30, 2003 at 12:14:07PM -0600, Harshwardhan Nagaonkar wrote:
> I would second that whole-heartedly. The current game that I want to 
> play, America's Army just came out with a new version 1.9.0. Shortly 
> after the windows release, they ported it to linux + mac (icculus rules 
> :) . However, I guess the port was designed for an older libc... maybe 
> one in redhat or something. Thats because it segfaults and the backtrace 
> indicates libc being at fault.

Backtraces that appear to indicate libc being at fault generally require
more expertise to determine whether it really is libc. Consider a
program that calls strlen(NULL): the segfault will happen in libc but
the fault belongs to the calling program.

Of course, if the situation differs from one release of libc to the
next, it may be the libc's fault, although even then it's not guaranteed
because the libc may simply have got stricter about enforcing something
the calling program should never have tried to do. For example, it
appears that older versions of consolechars tried to fclose() the same
filehandle twice, which used to work by accident but is no longer
allowed.

> I didn't report this since I _am_ using something called _unstable_ !

You should report it somewhere, otherwise it's pot luck whether it ever
gets fixed.

Cheers,

-- 
Colin Watson  [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: Quoting

[Steve Lamb]

On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 21:06:26 +0100
Pigeon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I have a windoze partition for one reason only: MS Train Simulator.
> (Which under WineX thinks it's running under a debugger and won't,
> while WineX reports an "evil attempt to circumvent Win98 security"
> which it can't emulate because Linux security is too good...)
> My primary system is Debian, which I use for everything else; it does
> it better and without doing my head in. Games may be a reason for
> having a *secondary* windoze system...

Except that the requirements for games far outstrip the requirements for
productivity.

My main "Games" machine: AMD 2500+ w/512Mb of RAM Running Win2k
My secondary "workhorse" machine: PIII-667 w/768Mb running Debian, just
upgraded from a PIII-450 w/512Mb.  The 667 was my game machine before.
My third "access" machine to my Linux box: PII-250 w/96Mb RAM running Win2k
and VNC to get to the Linux box.

I've never really felt the need to upgrade to anything faster on the Linux
side even though it is several years, and generations of CPUs old.  About the
only thing I'd change is the laptop.  I'd like to get an old G3 Powerbook to
throw OSX on to play with.

-- 
 Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
   PGP Key: 8B6E99C5   | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
---+-


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Re: Quoting

[Bijan Soleymani]

On Fri, Aug 29, 2003 at 06:54:48PM +0200, Yves Goergen wrote:
> Sorry to come in here with my Outlook Express... (still looking for a
> 'better' MUA for Win32) I can't provide a fully informational quoting
> line at the top, I'll try my best. But every each and then, for some
> mysterious reason, Outlook Express 6 just doesn't want to >-quote to
> the lines. Then I certainly won't go and add them by myself. Then it's
> just easier to become a 'top-poster', appreciated or not.

When on windows I use gnus. It works just like on Debian. People always
joke that emacs is it's own OS, but that's often a good thing. So I
don't have to deal with that kind of retardation.

> But I must say that I find those PGP signatures a bit irritating, I
> must filter them out in my eyes everytime I see them. Anyway, is it
> really so important to sign one's messages here? Why not even encrypt
> them? (Damn, I forgot, that doesn't work.) But there already was a
> thread on that, I think. (And did I already mention that OE shows
> those other signed mails as attachments?)

OE is broken when it comes to MIME. I recommend you change MUA's.

I've tested:
mozilla mail
mozilla thunderbird  (mozilla mail without the rest of mozilla)
gnus

And find that all are lightyears ahead of outlook express.

Bijan
-- 
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Re: Quoting

[Rudy Gevaert]

On Sat, Aug 30, 2003 at 09:06:26PM +0100, Pigeon wrote:
> it better and without doing my head in. Games may be a reason for
> having a *secondary* windoze system...

Very strange, I'm just a student and don't even have time to play
games.


-- 
Rudy Gevaert[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web pagehttp://www.webworm.org
GNU/Linux user and Savannah hacker http://savannah.gnu.org
There are lies, damned lies, and statistics. - Mark Twain


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Re: Quoting

[Pigeon]

On Sat, Aug 30, 2003 at 09:06:42AM -0700, Steve Lamb wrote:
> On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 08:00:15 -0700
> Paul Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On Sat, Aug 30, 2003 at 01:30:53PM +0200, Yves Goergen wrote:
> > > (My primary system will stay Windows for many reasons!)
>  
> > And likely none of them valid in 2003.
> 
> Games.  Still valid in 2003.  And no, WineX doesn't count.

I have a windoze partition for one reason only: MS Train Simulator.
(Which under WineX thinks it's running under a debugger and won't,
while WineX reports an "evil attempt to circumvent Win98 security"
which it can't emulate because Linux security is too good...)
My primary system is Debian, which I use for everything else; it does
it better and without doing my head in. Games may be a reason for
having a *secondary* windoze system...

-- 
Pigeon

Be kind to pigeons
Get my GPG key here: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x21C61F7F


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Re: Quoting

[Pigeon]

On Sat, Aug 30, 2003 at 09:18:05AM -0700, Paul Johnson wrote:
> On Sat, Aug 30, 2003 at 04:08:47PM +0100, Colin Watson wrote:
> > > Yeah.  It gets to the point where using the keyboard feels more like
> > > playing the piano.  You're no longer typing, you're more doing pretty
> > > simple "chords" on it, thinking not what keys you're pressing, but
> > > what you want it to do.
> > 
> > Indeed, and it's why the cryptic key sequences of vi don't bother me
> > either. (I'm sure emacs would be the same if I got used to it.)
> > 
> > I do play the piano, so maybe that has something to do with it ...
> 
> I play trumpet, bugle, recorder, and to some extent drums, but it still
> makes sense.  I wonder if maybe the difference between people able to
> cope with actually using a keyboard for a change and people who use
> the mouse as a crutch may be whether or not they play a musical
> instrument?

I'm a keyboard junkie, but I don't play an instrument... mind you, I
did learn to type before I went to school (I had an old Underwood
Noiseless with lions and elephants on it).

-- 
Pigeon

Be kind to pigeons
Get my GPG key here: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x21C61F7F


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Re: Quoting

[Harshwardhan Nagaonkar]

Steve Lamb wrote:
On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 08:00:15 -0700
Paul Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On Sat, Aug 30, 2003 at 01:30:53PM +0200, Yves Goergen wrote:

(My primary system will stay Windows for many reasons!)
 

And likely none of them valid in 2003.


Games.  Still valid in 2003.  And no, WineX doesn't count.
I would second that whole-heartedly. The current game that I want to 
play, America's Army just came out with a new version 1.9.0. Shortly 
after the windows release, they ported it to linux + mac (icculus rules 
:) . However, I guess the port was designed for an older libc... maybe 
one in redhat or something. Thats because it segfaults and the backtrace 
indicates libc being at fault. I didn't report this since I _am_ using 
something called _unstable_ ! Well, just waiting for the next revision 
of libc to fix this.

PS: Although to it's credit, the last revision of libc in unstable fixed 
 some segfaults that I was getting, including one with the Citrix ICA 
client for linux which I use for university stuff.

--
Harshwardhan Nagaonkar
Electrical Engineering Sysop
Brigham Young University - 84602
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Re: Quoting

[Steve Lamb]

On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 09:19:40 -0700
Paul Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> To Sylpheed-Claws' advantage, you have keyboard and mouse equivilents
> for everything.

Not that I use the keyboard much.  It boils down to not having to
constantly cycle through or manually check to see if and where I have new
mail.  It's right there on the left.

And for the record I use vim and slrn.  So I'm not CLI-phobic in the
least.  Oh, yeah, I used to play the drums.  :P

-- 
 Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
   PGP Key: 8B6E99C5   | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
---+-


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Re: Quoting

[Paul Johnson]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Sat, Aug 30, 2003 at 09:09:41AM -0700, Steve Lamb wrote:
> Oddly enough I punch through about as many messages in a day as Colin does
> with Sylpheed-Claws.  GUI does not automatically translate into inefficient
> any more than CLI automatically translates into efficient.

To Sylpheed-Claws' advantage, you have keyboard and mouse equivilents
for everything.

- -- 
 .''`. Paul Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
: :'  :
`. `'` proud Debian admin and user
  `-  Debian - when you have better things to do than fix a system
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Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux)

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-END PGP SIGNATURE-


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Re: Quoting

[Paul Johnson]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Sat, Aug 30, 2003 at 04:08:47PM +0100, Colin Watson wrote:
> > Yeah.  It gets to the point where using the keyboard feels more like
> > playing the piano.  You're no longer typing, you're more doing pretty
> > simple "chords" on it, thinking not what keys you're pressing, but
> > what you want it to do.
> 
> Indeed, and it's why the cryptic key sequences of vi don't bother me
> either. (I'm sure emacs would be the same if I got used to it.)
> 
> I do play the piano, so maybe that has something to do with it ...

I play trumpet, bugle, recorder, and to some extent drums, but it still
makes sense.  I wonder if maybe the difference between people able to
cope with actually using a keyboard for a change and people who use
the mouse as a crutch may be whether or not they play a musical
instrument?

- -- 
 .''`. Paul Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
: :'  :
`. `'` proud Debian admin and user
  `-  Debian - when you have better things to do than fix a system
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux)

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sIuXon9tlwTvjHePT7Uyeh0=
=jeoT
-END PGP SIGNATURE-


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Re: Quoting

[Steve Lamb]

On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 16:08:47 +0100
Colin Watson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Sat, Aug 30, 2003 at 08:03:37AM -0700, Paul Johnson wrote:
> > On Sat, Aug 30, 2003 at 01:02:57PM +0100, Colin Watson wrote:
> > > My mail delivery statistics say that I've read an average of just under
> > > 800 mails per day over the last week, and that's while getting a good
> > > deal of work done as well.

> > Yeah.  It gets to the point where using the keyboard feels more like
> > playing the piano.  You're no longer typing, you're more doing pretty
> > simple "chords" on it, thinking not what keys you're pressing, but
> > what you want it to do.
 
> Indeed, and it's why the cryptic key sequences of vi don't bother me
> either. (I'm sure emacs would be the same if I got used to it.)
 
Oddly enough I punch through about as many messages in a day as Colin does
with Sylpheed-Claws.  GUI does not automatically translate into inefficient
any more than CLI automatically translates into efficient.

-- 
 Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
   PGP Key: 8B6E99C5   | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
---+-


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Re: Quoting

[Steve Lamb]

On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 08:00:15 -0700
Paul Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Sat, Aug 30, 2003 at 01:30:53PM +0200, Yves Goergen wrote:
> > (My primary system will stay Windows for many reasons!)
 
> And likely none of them valid in 2003.

Games.  Still valid in 2003.  And no, WineX doesn't count.

> Any rate, you might want to take a look at kmail.  It has a lot of the
> features of mutt, in a UI that's similar to OE, without the problems
> of OE.  Think of it as OE done the right way.

Except it doesn't seem to do PGP/MIME which a shame since you cited OE
not handling MIME in reference to PGP.

-- 
 Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
   PGP Key: 8B6E99C5   | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
---+-


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Re: Quoting

[Richard Kimber]

On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 08:03:37 -0700
Paul Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Yeah.  It gets to the point where using the keyboard feels more like
> playing the piano.  You're no longer typing, you're more doing pretty
> simple "chords" on it, thinking not what keys you're pressing, but
> what you want it to do.  And you're going to be spending as much time
> mousing around through a GUI figuring out how it goes together as you

A well-designed gui should just be intuitive.

> would reading the quick help in a console-based program, so why not go
> for the more effective method and ditch the mouse for a minute?
> 
> There's times when a GUI isn't necissarily the best choice.

Why not have the best of both worlds and have a nice-looking gui, but use
the keyboard to operate it?  I'm sure many people do this.

- Richard
-- 
Richard Kimber
http://www.psr.keele.ac.uk/


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Re: Quoting

[Colin Watson]

On Sat, Aug 30, 2003 at 08:03:37AM -0700, Paul Johnson wrote:
> On Sat, Aug 30, 2003 at 01:02:57PM +0100, Colin Watson wrote:
> > My mail delivery statistics say that I've read an average of just under
> > 800 mails per day over the last week, and that's while getting a good
> > deal of work done as well.
> 
> Yeah.  It gets to the point where using the keyboard feels more like
> playing the piano.  You're no longer typing, you're more doing pretty
> simple "chords" on it, thinking not what keys you're pressing, but
> what you want it to do.

Indeed, and it's why the cryptic key sequences of vi don't bother me
either. (I'm sure emacs would be the same if I got used to it.)

I do play the piano, so maybe that has something to do with it ...

-- 
Colin Watson  [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: Quoting

[Paul Johnson]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Sat, Aug 30, 2003 at 01:02:57PM +0100, Colin Watson wrote:
> My mail delivery statistics say that I've read an average of just under
> 800 mails per day over the last week, and that's while getting a good
> deal of work done as well.

Yeah.  It gets to the point where using the keyboard feels more like
playing the piano.  You're no longer typing, you're more doing pretty
simple "chords" on it, thinking not what keys you're pressing, but
what you want it to do.  And you're going to be spending as much time
mousing around through a GUI figuring out how it goes together as you
would reading the quick help in a console-based program, so why not go
for the more effective method and ditch the mouse for a minute?

There's times when a GUI isn't necissarily the best choice.

- -- 
 .''`. Paul Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
: :'  :
`. `'` proud Debian admin and user
  `-  Debian - when you have better things to do than fix a system
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Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux)

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=+Gv7
-END PGP SIGNATURE-


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Re: Quoting

[Paul Johnson]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Sat, Aug 30, 2003 at 01:30:53PM +0200, Yves Goergen wrote:
> know what happens when quoting a >>> while line-wrapping then... But
> this seems to be a failure of design.

It doesn't happen.  You should be snipping as you go along anyway.  If
you're getting five levels deep of quoting, it's time to get more
aggressive with snipping and expressive with your responses because
you're not getting through.

> > So stop using what is universally known as a broken mailer, the world
> > isn't going to adapt to your inability to keep up with reality.  8:o)
> 
> Had this, too, in my last posting. It seems, the world (= you + * ?) doesn't
> like OE very well... OK, a debian-user list may need such Linux fanatics as
> those people, I see. 

Well, the thing is, it's just basic MIME.  Nothing fancy.  OE is the
*only* mail client that I know of that doesn't handle MIME right.
Please see Karsten's webpage about this (he posted it earlier
tonight), it explains the problem at depth.

> (My primary system will stay Windows for many reasons!)

And likely none of them valid in 2003.

> any control. I need to work efficiently with a program like that, not
> drowning in the developer's inexperience in UI design. And you know the

Never mind the developer was probably going for efficiency, not
necissarily intuitiveness.  You probably know how to type well, but it
probably took you time to learn.  You do not have the right to go
through life with people holding your hand forcing them to do all the
thinking for you.

Any rate, you might want to take a look at kmail.  It has a lot of the
features of mutt, in a UI that's similar to OE, without the problems
of OE.  Think of it as OE done the right way.

> rest... I think it's better to stop this discussion, stay by my OE and
> ignore any complaints about it.

Did MIT recently sell out to AOL?

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  `-  Debian - when you have better things to do than fix a system
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Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux)

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-END PGP SIGNATURE-


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Re: Quoting

[Carlos Sousa]

On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 12:48:56 +0100 Carlos Sousa wrote:
> On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 13:30:53 +0200 Yves Goergen wrote:
> > On Saturday, August 30, 2003 1:07 PM CEST, Paul Johnson wrote:
^^
Oops, forgot to delete this line. Sorry.

> > I think it's better to stop this discussion, stay by my OE and
> > ignore any complaints about it.
> 
> Cool, then you should perhaps do the same and stop complaining about
> those "irritating PGP signatures" that your mailer cannot handle,
> since that is a direct consequence of your choice.

-- 
Carlos Sousa
http://vbc.dyndns.org/


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Re: Quoting

[Rudy Gevaert]

On Sat, Aug 30, 2003 at 01:30:53PM +0200, Yves Goergen wrote:
> And I think we all
> know what happens when quoting a >>> while line-wrapping then... But
> this seems to be a failure of design.

I haven't had that problem.  When it escalates to that it is because
they didn't remove irrelevant parts.

For the rest, you should start using a real mail client and adjust it
to the environment you communicate in.

If OE is a real mail client for you that is good but don't bother us
with your problems with it.

-- 
Rudy Gevaert[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web pagehttp://www.webworm.org
GNU/Linux user and Savannah hacker http://savannah.gnu.org
  Sometimes when reading Goethe I have the paralyzing suspicion 
that he is trying to be funny.  
   - Guy Davenport


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Re: Quoting

[Colin Watson]

On Sat, Aug 30, 2003 at 01:30:53PM +0200, Yves Goergen wrote:
> I need to work efficiently with a program like that, not drowning in
> the developer's inexperience in UI design.

If we're talking about efficiency, I find that I can deal with mail far
more efficiently in mutt than I ever could back when I used a graphical
mailer. It may not be as pretty, but once I got over the learning curve
the benefits to efficiency were enormous.

My mail delivery statistics say that I've read an average of just under
800 mails per day over the last week, and that's while getting a good
deal of work done as well.

Cheers,

-- 
Colin Watson  [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: Quoting

[Carlos Sousa]

On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 13:30:53 +0200 Yves Goergen wrote:
> On Saturday, August 30, 2003 1:07 PM CEST, Paul Johnson wrote:
> I think it's better to stop this discussion, stay by my OE and ignore
> any complaints about it.

Cool, then you should perhaps do the same and stop complaining about
those "irritating PGP signatures" that your mailer cannot handle,
since that is a direct consequence of your choice.

-- 
Carlos Sousa
http://vbc.dyndns.org/


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Re: Quoting

[Yves Goergen]

On Saturday, August 30, 2003 1:07 PM CEST, Paul Johnson wrote:
> Apparently doesn't like to add line wraps, either.  Go dig through the
> preferences, you can enable both line wraps and quotemarks.  Google
> for OE-Quotefix to do the job right.  Or just go get a real mailer.


Hmm, maybe you first read my previous posting on this. I think my OE
settings are a little better now (for what should be "universally known").
Found OE-QuoteFix yesterday and it's quite OK so far. And I think we all
know what happens when quoting a >>> while line-wrapping then... But
this seems to be a failure of design.

> So stop using what is universally known as a broken mailer, the world
> isn't going to adapt to your inability to keep up with reality.  8:o)

Had this, too, in my last posting. It seems, the world (= you + * ?) doesn't
like OE very well... OK, a debian-user list may need such Linux fanatics as
those people, I see. (My primary system will stay Windows for many reasons!)
But the "world" doesn't seem to be able then to get a "real mailer" running
then. As I partially have stated before, I don't like "mailers" that offer
me half a screen full of pixelated 16 colour icons (reminds me a bit to the
good old Windows 3) and rectangular lines over lines just to delimit about
any control. I need to work efficiently with a program like that, not
drowning in the developer's inexperience in UI design. And you know the
rest... I think it's better to stop this discussion, stay by my OE and
ignore any complaints about it.

-- 
Yves Goergen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please don't CC me (causes double mails)


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Re: Quoting

[Paul Johnson]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Fri, Aug 29, 2003 at 06:54:48PM +0200, Yves Goergen wrote:

> Sorry to come in here with my Outlook Express... (still looking for
> a 'better' MUA for Win32) I can't provide a fully informational
> quoting line at the top, I'll try my best. But every each and then,
> for some mysterious reason, Outlook Express 6 just doesn't want to
> >-quote to the lines. Then I certainly won't go and add them by
> myself. Then it's just easier to become a 'top-poster', appreciated
> or not.

Apparently doesn't like to add line wraps, either.  Go dig through the
preferences, you can enable both line wraps and quotemarks.  Google
for OE-Quotefix to do the job right.  Or just go get a real mailer.

> But I must say that I find those PGP signatures a bit irritating, I
> must filter them out in my eyes everytime I see them. Anyway, is it
> really so important to sign one's messages here? Why not even
> encrypt them? (Damn, I forgot, that doesn't work.) But there already
> was a thread on that, I think. (And did I already mention that OE
> shows those other signed mails as attachments?)

So stop using what is universally known as a broken mailer, the world
isn't going to adapt to your inability to keep up with reality.  8:o)

- -- 
 .''`. Paul Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
: :'  :
`. `'` proud Debian admin and user
  `-  Debian - when you have better things to do than fix a system
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQE/UIVyUzgNqloQMwcRAtvDAJ9k6/1/DtnuoNu+Y2NMXmsfUTrd/gCgjFol
Cfw61qI+e5jdW5LPcwpbZKo=
=AUpe
-END PGP SIGNATURE-


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Re: Quoting

[cr]

On Saturday 30 August 2003 05:30, Derrick 'dman' Hudson wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 29, 2003 at 06:54:48PM +0200, Yves Goergen wrote:
> | Sorry to come in here with my Outlook Express... (still looking for
> | a 'better' MUA for Win32)
>
> Since you asked, here is a list of options I've heard of :
>
> .   Mahogany
> .   Mozilla Mail
> .   Pegasus
> .   The Bat!
> .   Eudora
>
> I know that Mahogany and Mozilla are open source, and run on unix as
> well as windows.  That's about all I can say about this list, though.
>

Pegasus is free for private non-commercial use, afaik.   They have a good 
website you can download it from  (Google for the URL  :)

cr


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Re: Quoting

[Yves Goergen]

On Saturday, August 30, 2003 12:50 AM CET, Harshwardhan Nagaonkar wrote:
> Ofcourse, there is a sort-of stripped down version of mozilla mail
> without much of the bulk, called Thunderbird. It also has many extra
> features too (anyone who knows more about thunderbird, please don't
> flame me, I haven't worked too long with it). It is called thunderbird
> and it's based on mozilla mail. And its definately less bloated than
> mozilla mail since it is a standalone software program. More info at:
>
> http://www.mozilla.org/projects/thunderbird/
>
> Keep in mind it's just at version 0.1 so its newish and might have
> some bugs.
>

Yeah, I forgot. Have seen this, too, looks more windows-like (not the
Mozilla 'modern' design), not bad, too.

But with "big", I less meant the binary size of the program, but rather the
on-screen size of things. The toolbar, f.ex., is quite big, and I can do
nothing about it (in Mozilla Mail). I like the OE (and IE) toolbars, because
I can move them to fit altogether in a single line (menu + icons + address).
They contain just the basic functions, the rest is still accessible through
menus or by keyboard shortcuts.

I'd almost call it my no. 1b favourite :) But there are still massive
problems with threaded view, which I mostly need when reading mailing lists
like this. (OK, early pre-release...)

But let's not get too OT here... (or is this an interesting topic for a
debian user list? I don't know)

-- 
Yves Goergen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please don't CC me (causes double mails)


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Re: Quoting

[Harshwardhan Nagaonkar]

Yves Goergen wrote:
Derrick 'dman' Hudson wrote:


Mozilla Mail
-- Tried that one before. Looks quite nice, though very big,
			
Ofcourse, there is a sort-of stripped down version of mozilla mail 
without much of the bulk, called Thunderbird. It also has many extra 
features too (anyone who knows more about thunderbird, please don't 
flame me, I haven't worked too long with it). It is called thunderbird 
and it's based on mozilla mail. And its definately less bloated than 
mozilla mail since it is a standalone software program. More info at:

http://www.mozilla.org/projects/thunderbird/

Keep in mind it's just at version 0.1 so its newish and might have some 
bugs.

HTH,
--
Harshwardhan Nagaonkar
Electrical Engineering Sysop
Brigham Young University, UT-84602
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Re: Quoting

[Yves Goergen]

Derrick 'dman' Hudson wrote:
> (...)
> Since you asked, here is a list of options I've heard of :
> 
> .   Mahogany
> .   Mozilla Mail
> .   Pegasus
> .   The Bat!
> .   Eudora
> (...)

OK, I just took a look at them...

The Bat!
-- Sorry, this is not free. 25 USD... And it looks very overloaded.
Didn't test how far this can be reduced. I like the simplicity I have
with OE.  

Mozilla Mail
-- Tried that one before. Looks quite nice, though very big,
everything. And its threading option is just as bad as OE's. This is still my no. 1 
favourite, but others have reported many problems with it.

Mahogany
-- Looks nice so far, waiting for GPG support. I'll take a closer look
at it next time. But development goes very slow. Is this one supposed
to be finished/usable yet?

Outlook Express itself
-- I just installed this OE-QuoteFix, and it instantly reformatted this e-mail... 
nice, needs some tuning but is certainly better than without now.

Pegasus
-- Seems quite unflexible. Hmm, unfriendly. Can't change the many icons... And no 
german language for the current version. Can't say for sure, but development seems 
slow, too.

Eudora
-- Is that an advertisement, I see in the screenshot? Yes, it's not free. And no 
german version.

Puh, hours went by, again.
No real alternative found. (I know, my requirements are quite high... But hey, it's an 
everyday application, I must be able to work with efficiently, and it should not be 
too ugly to look at.) Maybe I'll find the time and skill, some time, to take a closer 
look at the Mozilla Mail source code.

-- 
Yves Goergen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please don't CC me (causes double mails)


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Re: Quoting

[Andreas Janssen]

Hello

Yves Goergen (<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>) wrote:

> Sorry to come in here with my Outlook Express... (still looking for a
> 'better' MUA for Win32) I can't provide a fully informational quoting
> line at the top, I'll try my best. But every each and then, for some
> mysterious reason, Outlook Express 6 just doesn't want to >-quote to
> the lines. Then I certainly won't go and add them by myself. Then it's
> just easier to become a 'top-poster', appreciated or not.

As you speak german,  might be worth a try, at least
to turn off OE's most annoying habits.

best regards
Andreas Janssen

-- 
Andreas Janssen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
PGP-Key-ID: 0xDC801674
Registered Linux User #267976


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Re: Quoting

[Steve Lamb]

On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 13:30:59 -0400
Derrick 'dman' Hudson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 29, 2003 at 06:54:48PM +0200, Yves Goergen wrote:
> | Sorry to come in here with my Outlook Express... (still looking for
> | a 'better' MUA for Win32)
 
> Since you asked, here is a list of options I've heard of :
 
> .   Mahogany
> .   Mozilla Mail
> .   Pegasus
> .   The Bat!
> .   Eudora
  .   Sylpheed-Claws

> I know that Mahogany and Mozilla are open source, and run on unix as
> well as windows.  

As does SC.

> That's about all I can say about this list, though.

TB! is the best of the Windows only clients listed.  Extremely powerful,
easy to use and the authors are quite responsive to their customer base as
well as security issues.  About the only ding against it is that TB! is often
spoofed by spammers and SA doesn't quite keep up with the latest version
numbers to catch that spoofing.

-- 
 Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your
   PGP Key: 8B6E99C5   | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
---+-


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Description: PGP signature

Re: Quoting

[Derrick 'dman' Hudson]

On Fri, Aug 29, 2003 at 06:54:48PM +0200, Yves Goergen wrote:

| Sorry to come in here with my Outlook Express... (still looking for
| a 'better' MUA for Win32)

Since you asked, here is a list of options I've heard of :

.   Mahogany
.   Mozilla Mail
.   Pegasus
.   The Bat!
.   Eudora

I know that Mahogany and Mozilla are open source, and run on unix as
well as windows.  That's about all I can say about this list, though.

| But I must say that I find those PGP signatures a bit irritating,

| (And did I already mention that OE shows those other signed mails as
| attachments?)

Yeah, we know.  OE doesn't follow standards.  Just like many products
from MS.

(a detailed rant on this is available at
http://kmself.home.netcom.com/Rants/gpg-signed-mail.html
for your reading pleasure)

-D

-- 
He who scorns instruction will pay for it,
but he who respects a command is rewarded.
Proverbs 13:13
 
http://dman13.dyndns.org/~dman/


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Re: Quoting

[Yves Goergen]

Von: "Paul Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> On Fri, Aug 29, 2003 at 10:36:47AM -0400, Rick Pasotto wrote:
> > Also, when quoted text follows a top post, you often *still* scroll to
> > the end to make sure there is no additional new info.
> 
> Right, because convention dictates that you intersperse, and that's
> what people expect.
> 

Sorry to come in here with my Outlook Express... (still looking for a 'better' MUA for 
Win32)
I can't provide a fully informational quoting line at the top, I'll try my best. But 
every each and then, for some mysterious reason, Outlook Express 6 just doesn't want 
to >-quote to the lines. Then I certainly won't go and add them by myself. Then it's 
just easier to become a 'top-poster', appreciated or not.

But I must say that I find those PGP signatures a bit irritating, I must filter them 
out in my eyes everytime I see them. Anyway, is it really so important to sign one's 
messages here? Why not even encrypt them? (Damn, I forgot, that doesn't work.) But 
there already was a thread on that, I think. (And did I already mention that OE shows 
those other signed mails as attachments?)

> (...more PGP stuff...)

--
Yves Goergen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please don't CC me (causes double mails)


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Re: Quoting

[Paul Johnson]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Fri, Aug 29, 2003 at 10:36:47AM -0400, Rick Pasotto wrote:
> Also, when quoted text follows a top post, you often *still* scroll to
> the end to make sure there is no additional new info.

Right, because convention dictates that you intersperse, and that's
what people expect.

- -- 
 .''`. Paul Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
: :'  :
`. `'` proud Debian admin and user
  `-  Debian - when you have better things to do than fix a system
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Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux)

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Hhj95Puyw5fpCTpJ73Lzyrk=
=SN5g
-END PGP SIGNATURE-


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Re: Quoting

[Rick Pasotto]

On Fri, Aug 29, 2003 at 03:18:47PM +0100, Richard Kimber wrote:
> On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 15:29:03 +0200
> Arnt Karlsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > ..top posting will usually cause considerable irritation, especially 
> > for people who pay for their bandwidth, when some idiot go "Me too!!!" 
> > on top of a meg of uselessly formatted quotes, in an non-Wintendo list,
> 
> Actually, as far as irritation is concerned, I find having to scroll down
> through large amounts of un-snipped text just to find a "me too" at the
> end more irritating than if it had been top-posted on an un-snipped
> message. The normal convention only works well when people snip and reply
> to the relevant bits underneath.

When the 'me too!' is top posted I often overlook it since I'm expecting
a 'so-and-so wrote one mm-dd-yyy' line to come first.

Also, when quoted text follows a top post, you often *still* scroll to
the end to make sure there is no additional new info.

> It's non-snipping that's the real problem.  It seems virtually to be the
> norm in many non-computer usenet groups.

True.

-- 
"If a thousand men were not to pay their tax bills this year, that
would not be a violent and bloody measure, as it would be to pay
them, and enable the State to commit violence and shed innocent
blood. This is, in fact, the definition of a peaceable revolution,
if any such is possible."  -- Henry David Thoreau
Rick Pasotto[EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.niof.net


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Re: Quoting

[Richard Kimber]

On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 15:29:03 +0200
Arnt Karlsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> ..top posting will usually cause considerable irritation, especially 
> for people who pay for their bandwidth, when some idiot go "Me too!!!" 
> on top of a meg of uselessly formatted quotes, in an non-Wintendo list,

Actually, as far as irritation is concerned, I find having to scroll down
through large amounts of un-snipped text just to find a "me too" at the
end more irritating than if it had been top-posted on an un-snipped
message. The normal convention only works well when people snip and reply
to the relevant bits underneath.

It's non-snipping that's the real problem.  It seems virtually to be the
norm in many non-computer usenet groups.

- Richard.
-- 
Richard Kimber
http://www.psr.keele.ac.uk/


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Re: Quoting

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 04:11:10 -0700, 
Paul Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> On Wed, Aug 27, 2003 at 05:44:12PM +0100, Chris Wilcox wrote:
> > First post folks so I'm unsure if we top post or not round here but 
> > everyone else seems to so I'll join in! :)
> 
> Never top post anywhere.  Conversational quoting is the universally
> accepted form, always use it and nobody will complain at you.

..top posting will usually cause considerable irritation, especially 
for people who pay for their bandwidth, when some idiot go "Me too!!!" 
on top of a meg of uselessly formatted quotes, in an non-Wintendo list,
and it is called Wintendo style quoting for a reason.

-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;-)
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.


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Re: Quoting style

[Gary Turner]

Paul Johnson wrote:


>Trim what you're not responding to, and
>respond conversationally, it'll make the threads *far* easier to
>follow and [...]
>actually recover context from it.
>
>http://ursine.dyndns.org/jargon/html/Email-Quotes.html
>http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html

Good points, and good refs, especially the full explanation in the
second.

--
gt   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
It ain't so much what you don't know that gets you in trouble---
it's what you do know that ain't so.--unk


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Re: quoting (was: idiosyncratic "ln" not making hard links)

[Jamin W . Collins]

On Wed, 25 Sep 2002 22:01:52 +0200 martin f krafft <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> also sprach Mark L. Kahnt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2002.09.25.1953
> +0200]:
> > > > > > > | :~$ touch k
> > > > > > > | :~$ ln k y
> > 
> > I'm going to toss in a *wild* question, but given that the actual link
> > attempt is failing, this wandered through the chasm I use as a mind:
> 
> in that case, please don't try to quote *the entire thread* in one
> reply. seven levels!

Actually it was only five the |'s were my indication of the output from my
commands.

-- 
Jamin W. Collins


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Re: Quoting styles, cont (Was Re: Fonts in GTK)

[Hall Stevenson]

> > Note that they provide no left-margin quote marks,
> > nor any indication of where the original message ends,
> > and they leave a blank line or two at the top, implying
> > that your reply should go there (otherwise, why
> > put it there?).
>
> That's a configurable setting in Outlook Express. I use it
> every day...  I believe it's also configurable in regular
Outlook.
> I'll check it tomorrow.

Outlook (98 here) also has an option for prefixing the message
you're replying to with "fill in what you want to use here". I
have mine set with "> ", hopefully like a good netizen.

Hall

Re: Quoting styles, cont (Was Re: Fonts in GTK)

[John Galt]

On Wed, 5 Sep 2001, Nathan E Norman wrote:

>On Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 04:07:40PM -0600, John Galt wrote:
>> >>  * You are not expected to understand this.
>> >> --comment from Unix system 6 source, credited to Lions and Johnson
>> >> Who is John Galt?  [EMAIL PROTECTED], that's who: finger me for GPG key
>> >
>> >Since you're such a fan of jeopardy style quoting, why is your sig
>> >always at the bottom?  Seems hypocritical.
>>
>> I think the sig said it all  You really aren't expected to understand.
>
>Wow, your rapier wit is amazing to behold.  I'm always impressed by
>people who raise a big fuss and then obfuscate the issue when asked a
>direct question.

No, YOU obfuscated the issue with a nonsensical question.

>*plonk*

Surprise!  bad logic and bad taste go hand in hand.

>

-- 
EMACS == Eight Megabytes And Constantly Swapping

Who is John Galt?  [EMAIL PROTECTED], that's who!

Re: Quoting styles, cont (Was Re: Fonts in GTK)

[John Galt]

Ahhh.  So the brokenness lies in the lack of quotation definers and the
implicit one line open (BTW, pine/pico leaves two, but angle-brackets
things in pretty well).  I just figured that the brokenness was an
artifact of where the cursor gets put, not having dealt with Lookout
(personal reasons, I know of the guy who wrote it and have nothing good to
say about him--if I was stuck in windoze, I'd prolly use a third party
app).  So the top-posting coupled with the microso~1 stuff is really a
no-op, since the non-quotation quotation can be dealt with in the process
of editing, since a bottom poster has to cursor through the old message,
there should be no problem adding in an angle-bracket on every line.
Perhaps in light of arguements like this, where the other side gets
demonized by micros~1 unfairly, there ought to be the Debian equivalent of
Godwin's razor: Since micros~1 is the functional equivalent of Nazis in
Debian, it follows that for uses inside Debian, that Godwin's razor cuts
on mentions of micros~1...

On Wed, 5 Sep 2001, Craig Dickson wrote:

>John Galt wrote:
>> Elm predates any microsoft email product...  Try to quote stuff in elm,
>> the cursor goes to the beginning of the text.
>
>Where the cursor starts out is beside the point. What matters is the
>structure of the message. Most traditional Internet email clients, such
>as elm or mutt, give you a document like this:
>
>___cut_here___
>John Galt wrote:
>> Elm predates any microsoft email product...  Try to quote stuff in elm,
>> the cursor goes to the beginning of the text.
>
>___cut_here___
>
>The use of angle-bracket quote marks on the left margin makes it easy to
>tell what text is new and what is quoted, facilitating proper replies.
>Moving the cursor to the bottom is trivial, and I think it's best that
>the client not do that automatically, as it would discourage the user
>from cutting out irrelevant material from the quoted message. (In fact,
>it is easily observed that most people who reply at the top fail to trim
>the quoted text.)
>
>Microsoft's mail clients, on the other hand, give you something like this:
>
>___cut_here___
>
>
>--- Original message ---
>From: John Galt
>
>Elm predates any microsoft email product...  Try to quote stuff in elm,
>the cursor goes to the beginning of the text.
>___cut_here___
>
>Note that they provide no left-margin quote marks, nor any indication of
>where the original message ends, and they leave a blank line or two at
>the top, implying that your reply should go there (otherwise, why put
>it there?).
>
>Craig
>
>
>

-- 
EMACS == Eight Megabytes And Constantly Swapping

Who is John Galt?  [EMAIL PROTECTED], that's who!

Re: Quoting styles, cont (Was Re: Fonts in GTK)

[Nathan E Norman]

On Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 04:07:40PM -0600, John Galt wrote:
> >>  * You are not expected to understand this.
> >> --comment from Unix system 6 source, credited to Lions and Johnson
> >> Who is John Galt?  [EMAIL PROTECTED], that's who: finger me for GPG key
> >
> >Since you're such a fan of jeopardy style quoting, why is your sig
> >always at the bottom?  Seems hypocritical.
> 
> I think the sig said it all  You really aren't expected to understand.

Wow, your rapier wit is amazing to behold.  I'm always impressed by
people who raise a big fuss and then obfuscate the issue when asked a
direct question.

*plonk*

-- 
Nathan Norman - Staff Engineer | A good plan today is better
Micromuse Ltd. | than a perfect plan tomorrow.
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]   |   -- Patton


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Re: Quoting styles, cont (Was Re: Fonts in GTK)

[Hall Stevenson]

* Craig Dickson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [010905 23:53]:
>
> Microsoft's mail clients, on the other hand, give you something like
> this:
>
> ___cut_here___
>
>
> --- Original message --- From: John Galt
>
> Elm predates any microsoft email product... Try to quote stuff in elm,
> the cursor goes to the beginning of the text. ___cut_here___
>
> Note that they provide no left-margin quote marks, nor any indication
> of where the original message ends, and they leave a blank line or two
> at the top, implying that your reply should go there (otherwise, why
> put it there?).

That's a configurable setting in Outlook Express. I use it every day...
I believe it's also configurable in regular Outlook. I'll check it
tomorrow.

The problem is that it's not the default. Hell, the default is to use
HTML vs plain-text.

Hall

Re: Quoting styles, cont (Was Re: Fonts in GTK)

[dman]

On Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 04:51:20PM -0600, John Galt wrote:
| 
| Elm predates any microsoft email product...  Try to quote stuff in elm,
| the cursor goes to the beginning of the text.

Don't all editors start with the cursor at the beginning?  I used vim
in elm before I now use vim in mutt.  Regardless, vim starts with the
cursor at the beginning and I move down, trimming as necessary, when I
reply.

-D

Re: Quoting styles

[Bud Rogers]

On Wednesday 05 September 2001 17:51 pm, John Galt wrote:
> Elm predates any microsoft email product...  Try to quote stuff in elm,
> the cursor goes to the beginning of the text.

Another reason I never used elm.

-- 
Bud Rogers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   http://www.sirinet.net/~budr
All things in moderation.  And not too much moderation either.

Re: Quoting styles, cont (Was Re: Fonts in GTK)

[Craig Dickson]

John Galt wrote:
> Elm predates any microsoft email product...  Try to quote stuff in elm,
> the cursor goes to the beginning of the text.

Where the cursor starts out is beside the point. What matters is the
structure of the message. Most traditional Internet email clients, such
as elm or mutt, give you a document like this:

___cut_here___
John Galt wrote:
> Elm predates any microsoft email product...  Try to quote stuff in elm,
> the cursor goes to the beginning of the text.

___cut_here___

The use of angle-bracket quote marks on the left margin makes it easy to
tell what text is new and what is quoted, facilitating proper replies.
Moving the cursor to the bottom is trivial, and I think it's best that
the client not do that automatically, as it would discourage the user
from cutting out irrelevant material from the quoted message. (In fact,
it is easily observed that most people who reply at the top fail to trim
the quoted text.)

Microsoft's mail clients, on the other hand, give you something like this:

___cut_here___


--- Original message ---
From: John Galt

Elm predates any microsoft email product...  Try to quote stuff in elm,
the cursor goes to the beginning of the text.
___cut_here___

Note that they provide no left-margin quote marks, nor any indication of
where the original message ends, and they leave a blank line or two at
the top, implying that your reply should go there (otherwise, why put
it there?).

Craig

Re: Quoting styles, cont (Was Re: Fonts in GTK)

[John Galt]

Elm predates any microsoft email product...  Try to quote stuff in elm,
the cursor goes to the beginning of the text.

On Wed, 5 Sep 2001, Bud Rogers wrote:

>On Tuesday 04 September 2001 22:43 pm, Craig Dickson wrote:
>
>> Karsten is using the word as it is commonly used among computer
>> professionals. When some previously-common (or even not so common)
>> practice or standard is superseded and no longer recommended, it is said
>> to be "deprecated". One often sees a phrase such as "strongly deprecated"
>> in reference to something that is not merely no longer recommended, but
>> actively discouraged or considered a Very Bad Thing.
>
>Except that in this case we're not talking about a practice that was not
>previously common or even not so common.  We're talking about a practice that
>was virtually unknown until Microsoft flooded the market with badly broken
>mail and news clients that make it very difficult to properly quote or
>attribute anything.
>
>

-- 
 * You are not expected to understand this.
--comment from Unix system 6 source, credited to Lions and Johnson
Who is John Galt?  [EMAIL PROTECTED], that's who: finger me for GPG key

Re: Quoting styles, cont (Was Re: Fonts in GTK)

[John Galt]

On Wed, 5 Sep 2001, Nathan E Norman wrote:

>On Tue, Sep 04, 2001 at 09:34:05PM -0600, John Galt wrote:
>> On Tue, 4 Sep 2001, Nathan E Norman wrote:
>>
>> >On Tue, Sep 04, 2001 at 06:11:03PM -0700, Eric G. Miller wrote:
>> >> On Tue, Sep 04, 2001 at 03:10:27PM -0700, Karsten M. Self wrote:
>> >> > but this practice is strongly deprecated.
>> >>^^^
>> >>  Hell does that mean?
>> >>
>> >> Webster's Ninth Collegiate Dictionary has this to say...
>> >>
>> >> dep-re-cate  1. to express mild or regretful disapproval of  2.
>> >> DEPRECIATE
>> >>
>> >> I "strongly mildly dissapprove" of that quoting convention! Huh?
>> >
>> >"deprecate" is a common technical term (hang out at the IETF for a
>> >while).  When a standard is trached, it is marked "deprecated" so
>> >people know that though they might have to put up with it from others,
>> >they shouldn't implement or use it themselves.
>> >
>> >Perhaps Karsten should have used "discouraged" rather than deprecated,
>> >but close enough.
>>
>> Well that's the problem, isn't it?  Karsten (and yourself, variously)
>> isn't really "putting up" with it, now is he?
>
>Putting up with retarded behavior doesn't mean you are prohibited from
>discouraging said behavior.
>
>> --
>>  * You are not expected to understand this.
>> --comment from Unix system 6 source, credited to Lions and Johnson
>> Who is John Galt?  [EMAIL PROTECTED], that's who: finger me for GPG key
>
>Since you're such a fan of jeopardy style quoting, why is your sig
>always at the bottom?  Seems hypocritical.

I think the sig said it all  You really aren't expected to understand.

>Good luck,
>
>

-- 
 * You are not expected to understand this.
--comment from Unix system 6 source, credited to Lions and Johnson
Who is John Galt?  [EMAIL PROTECTED], that's who: finger me for GPG key

Re: Quoting styles, cont (Was Re: Fonts in GTK)

[Bud Rogers]

On Wednesday 05 September 2001 05:45 am, Bud Rogers wrote:

> Except that in this case we're not talking about a practice that was not
> previously common or even not so common. 

That's not a double negative, it's a brain fart.  I meant to say "We're not 
talking about a practice that was previously common or even not so common."

-- 
Bud Rogers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   http://www.sirinet.net/~budr
All things in moderation.  And not too much moderation either.

Re: Quoting styles, cont (Was Re: Fonts in GTK)

[Craig Dickson]

Rob Ransbottom wrote:

> If one watches for how misunderstandings occur and expand
> one can write so as to minimize them.

As someone once said, "You sadist! You're asking people to THINK!"

Much as I agree with everything you wrote, I think you're wasting your
breath. Written conversation is not really the sort of thing that most
people want to analyze and learn how to do better. In my experience,
most programmers can't be bothered to learn how to improve their coding
style so as to avoid certain common classes of bugs, and that's their
_job_, for which they presumably studied at university level. So how can
you expect the average mailing list subscriber -- someone who has not
been trained in problem solving -- to appreciate the sort of
engineer's-mindset arguments you're advancing?

The very idea that communication is a two-way street is strangely foreign
to most people, as far as I can tell. The general attitude seems to be,
"Well, what I said made sense to me, so there's something wrong with you
if you didn't understand it." Not everyone with this attitude is an
idiot either, at least, clinically speaking.

Craig

Re: Quoting styles, cont (Was Re: Fonts in GTK)

[Rob Ransbottom]

I agree.  See you don't know what part of whose post I agree with.

More in readable order follows. 


On Tue, 4 Sep 2001, Karsten M. Self wrote:

> on Tue, Sep 04, 2001 at 01:53:24PM -0600, John Galt ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> > 
> > In case nobody told you, this is a mailinglist, not usenet.  
> 
> Wrong, it's both:

I agree.  See you now know what part of Karsten's post I agree with.

It is obviously more readable to quote then reply.

The nature of usenet discourse is interesting to consider.  If you
watch carefully, you will find repetitious patterns of misunderstandings
and waste between the well intentioned.  Dialog looping and dialog floods 
within threads are a couple of simple examples.  

A flood is when I ask "How do I turn on my computer?" and 40 well
intentioned souls immediately say "Hey I know this one" and post
"There's a switch on the front or side. It may have an 'O' and
a '-' or 'I' intertwined or side by side labeling it."  Despite
the fact that the thread already has 20 responses.

A loop might happen when the thread broadens to discuss the proper 
location of power and reset switches and the meaning and history
of o-   An example:

  rir message:  power & reset switches shouldn't 
 be near drive buttons.

  karsten message:  (quote rir or not)  also they shouldn't 
  near the bottom where you might kick one 
  by accident

  john message:  true, but they should be away from the drive 
   bays too

If one watches for how misunderstandings occur and expand
one can write so as to minimize them.

Re: Quoting styles, cont (Was Re: Fonts in GTK)

[ktb]

On Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 07:27:13PM +0200, Cliff Sarginson wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 11:52:27AM -0500, ktb wrote:
> > On Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 08:48:22AM -0700, Craig Dickson wrote:
> > > Bud Rogers wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Except that in this case we're not talking about a practice that was
> > > > not previously common or even not so common. We're talking about a
> > > > practice that was virtually unknown until Microsoft flooded the market
> > > > with badly broken mail and news clients that make it very difficult to
> > > > properly quote or attribute anything.
> > > 
> > > True. In this situation, I wouldn't use the word "deprecated". I would
> > > just say that putting one's reply above the original message makes one
> > > look like an idiot.
> > 
> > I like that...lol.  I remember when I first started using linux I posted
> > to some list, probably this one.  I wanted to know how to set Netscape
> > mail to default, like outlook, to appending my text to the top of the
> > message.  You can imagine what response I got:D
> > kent
> > 
> Did they tell you cannot "append" something before something else..
> (just teasing)

Got me  :)
Lets start another definition thread. Kiddingjustkidding:)
kent

-- 
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the
   same level of thinking we were at when we created them."
 --Albert Einstein

Re: Quoting styles, cont (Was Re: Fonts in GTK)

[Cliff Sarginson]

On Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 11:52:27AM -0500, ktb wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 08:48:22AM -0700, Craig Dickson wrote:
> > Bud Rogers wrote:
> > 
> > > Except that in this case we're not talking about a practice that was
> > > not previously common or even not so common. We're talking about a
> > > practice that was virtually unknown until Microsoft flooded the market
> > > with badly broken mail and news clients that make it very difficult to
> > > properly quote or attribute anything.
> > 
> > True. In this situation, I wouldn't use the word "deprecated". I would
> > just say that putting one's reply above the original message makes one
> > look like an idiot.
> 
> I like that...lol.  I remember when I first started using linux I posted
> to some list, probably this one.  I wanted to know how to set Netscape
> mail to default, like outlook, to appending my text to the top of the
> message.  You can imagine what response I got:D
> kent
> 
Did they tell you cannot "append" something before something else..
(just teasing)
Cliff

Re: Quoting styles, cont (Was Re: Fonts in GTK)

[Colin Watson]

On Tue, Sep 04, 2001 at 10:13:08PM -0600, John Galt wrote:
> On Tue, 4 Sep 2001, Karsten M. Self wrote:
> >The problem with suggesting prefix responses are suitable in any context
> >is that this leads almost immediately to bad practices:
> 
> Yeah, like the free exchange of ideas: can't have that.

Irrelevant. *shrug*

> >  - Excessive quoting, sigs and all.
> 
> How does appending rather than prepending change this?

Intelligent people who append are likely to read through the previous
text as they move down to compose their reply, and cut as they go.
Intelligent people who prepend are, in my experience, more likely to
forget. (Naturally, there are bad examples of both practices, but
well-snipped prefix responses are rare on both mailing lists and
Usenet.)

> >http://www.ptialaska.net/~kmorgan/nquote.html
> >
> >Q7: Why shouldn't I put my comments above the quoted material?
> 
> When you read your mail with rn, and have to send email over the "this
> message is about to be sent to millions of computers" warning of pnews,
> we'll talk.

For about the last two years, I read debian-* list mail with trn, and
followed up over that same warning. (I don't at the moment, but that's
due to losing much of that environment to a disk crash.)

Care to talk? Mailing lists and Usenet aren't much different, when you
get right down to it, as long as you stay out of Usenet's more annoying
cesspools.

[snip flamebait]

-- 
Colin Watson  [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Quoting styles, cont (Was Re: Fonts in GTK)

[ktb]

On Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 08:48:22AM -0700, Craig Dickson wrote:
> Bud Rogers wrote:
> 
> > Except that in this case we're not talking about a practice that was
> > not previously common or even not so common. We're talking about a
> > practice that was virtually unknown until Microsoft flooded the market
> > with badly broken mail and news clients that make it very difficult to
> > properly quote or attribute anything.
> 
> True. In this situation, I wouldn't use the word "deprecated". I would
> just say that putting one's reply above the original message makes one
> look like an idiot.

I like that...lol.  I remember when I first started using linux I posted
to some list, probably this one.  I wanted to know how to set Netscape
mail to default, like outlook, to appending my text to the top of the
message.  You can imagine what response I got:D
kent

-- 
"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the
   same level of thinking we were at when we created them."
 --Albert Einstein

Re: Quoting styles, cont (Was Re: Fonts in GTK)

[Nathan E Norman]

On Tue, Sep 04, 2001 at 09:34:05PM -0600, John Galt wrote:
> On Tue, 4 Sep 2001, Nathan E Norman wrote:
> 
> >On Tue, Sep 04, 2001 at 06:11:03PM -0700, Eric G. Miller wrote:
> >> On Tue, Sep 04, 2001 at 03:10:27PM -0700, Karsten M. Self wrote:
> >> > but this practice is strongly deprecated.
> >>^^^
> >>   Hell does that mean?
> >>
> >> Webster's Ninth Collegiate Dictionary has this to say...
> >>
> >> dep-re-cate  1. to express mild or regretful disapproval of  2.
> >> DEPRECIATE
> >>
> >> I "strongly mildly dissapprove" of that quoting convention! Huh?
> >
> >"deprecate" is a common technical term (hang out at the IETF for a
> >while).  When a standard is trached, it is marked "deprecated" so
> >people know that though they might have to put up with it from others,
> >they shouldn't implement or use it themselves.
> >
> >Perhaps Karsten should have used "discouraged" rather than deprecated,
> >but close enough.
> 
> Well that's the problem, isn't it?  Karsten (and yourself, variously)
> isn't really "putting up" with it, now is he?

Putting up with retarded behavior doesn't mean you are prohibited from
discouraging said behavior.

> -- 
>  * You are not expected to understand this.
> --comment from Unix system 6 source, credited to Lions and Johnson
> Who is John Galt?  [EMAIL PROTECTED], that's who: finger me for GPG key

Since you're such a fan of jeopardy style quoting, why is your sig
always at the bottom?  Seems hypocritical.

Good luck,

-- 
Nathan Norman - Staff Engineer | A good plan today is better
Micromuse Ltd. | than a perfect plan tomorrow.
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]   |   -- Patton


pgpB00bjN0bha.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: Quoting styles, cont (Was Re: Fonts in GTK)

[Craig Dickson]

Bud Rogers wrote:

> Except that in this case we're not talking about a practice that was
> not previously common or even not so common. We're talking about a
> practice that was virtually unknown until Microsoft flooded the market
> with badly broken mail and news clients that make it very difficult to
> properly quote or attribute anything.

True. In this situation, I wouldn't use the word "deprecated". I would
just say that putting one's reply above the original message makes one
look like an idiot.

Craig

Re: Quoting styles, cont (Was Re: Fonts in GTK)

[Bud Rogers]

On Tuesday 04 September 2001 22:43 pm, Craig Dickson wrote:

> Karsten is using the word as it is commonly used among computer
> professionals. When some previously-common (or even not so common)
> practice or standard is superseded and no longer recommended, it is said
> to be "deprecated". One often sees a phrase such as "strongly deprecated"
> in reference to something that is not merely no longer recommended, but
> actively discouraged or considered a Very Bad Thing.

Except that in this case we're not talking about a practice that was not 
previously common or even not so common.  We're talking about a practice that 
was virtually unknown until Microsoft flooded the market with badly broken 
mail and news clients that make it very difficult to properly quote or 
attribute anything.

-- 
Bud Rogers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   http://www.sirinet.net/~budr
All things in moderation.  And not too much moderation either.

Re: Quoting styles, cont (Was Re: Fonts in GTK)

[J.H.M. Dassen \(Ray\)]

On Tue, Sep 04, 2001 at 18:11:03 -0700, Eric G. Miller wrote:
> Webster's Ninth Collegiate Dictionary has this to say...
> 
> dep-re-cate  1. to express mild or regretful disapproval of  2.
> DEPRECIATE

The Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary, 5th ed. says "to feel and express
disapproval of sth"; no "mild" there.

And dict(1) includes:
From WordNet (r) 1.6 [wn]:

  deprecate
   v 1: express strong disapproval of; deplore
   2: belittle; "The teacher should not deprecate his student's
  efforts" [syn: {depreciate}]

So we have the whole spectrum (mild, neutral/unspecified strength,
strong)... don't you just love the fluidity of natural language?

Ray
-- 
RUMOUR  Believe all you hear. Your world may  not be a better one than the one
the blocks  live in but it'll be a sight more vivid.  
- The Hipcrime Vocab by Chad C. Mulligan