Re: OT: Top Posting

[gene heskett]

On 5/15/24 10:50, Nicolas George wrote:

Cindy Sue Causey (12024-05-15):

PS Afterthought is that email signatures are another of that widely
accepted netiquette set of standards.


You can add the “Re: ” to that list.

It is the sequence of four octets 0x52, 0x65, 0x3a, 0x20, and nothing
else.

The MUAs who write “RE: ” are wrong.

The MUAs who write “Re : ” are wrong.

The MUAs who write “AW: ” are wrong.

The MUAs who put it in base64 are wrong.

It is not a string that is designed to be internationalized, we cannot
expect every MUA to know every stupid local or vanity variant of “Re: ”.

+ 5, Excellent point Nicolas
The same can be said for sig separators. One fellow here has it as part 
of his sig but his definition in his sig is incomplete.
Its actually an lf,dash,dash,space.lf ignoring the comma's I used 
here..Some email agents won't use it as a sig separator w/o the full 
lf's as wrapper. cr's are not valid subs for the lf's..



Regards,


Take care & stay well Nicolas.

Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: OT: Top Posting

[James H. H. Lampert]

On 5/15/24 6:46 AM, Cindy Sue Causey wrote:
. . .

No its not, its your refusal to use the down arrow in your reply editor
to put your reply after the question. It really is that simple. If your
choice of email agents cannot do that, its time to switch to an agent
that can. There are dozens of them.

. . .

Actually, it isn't necessarily the user's fault. Thanks to the "business 
standard," (and think about the initials) of top-posting over the 
complete, unpared quote of the entire thread, there are an awful lot of 
email readers (and especially webmail interfaces) that make it difficult 
to follow any other convention, and a few that make it damn-near impossible.


Just as there are an awful lot that make it difficult or impossible to 
send a plain-text email.



Incidentally, regarding the Hollerith card origins of the 80-column 
standard, the very first Hollerith cards, from the 1890 U.S. Census, had 
24 columns and 12 rows of round holes, and were punched with a 
pantograph punch. In 1928, IBM introduced rectangular holes, in an 
80-column, 10-row format, later expanded to 12 rows.


--
JHHL

Re: OT: Top Posting

[Henning Follmann]

Since my request started this offtopic subthread I hope I can put it to
rest.
Yes I requested to not toppost. I asked politely, and I added pertinent
response on topic. I do not claim to be right or wrong about this. I prefer
interleaved style for reason. Everyone on  this list heard all arguments pro
and con in previous discussions, and there is no need to repeat them. It is
a matter of personal choice though I have to admit I feel a bit emboldened by
the posting guidelines. And in my experience a polite question goes a long
way with most civilized people. You can ignore my request, well you even
ask me to toppost. I will ignore it.
There is no need for a lecture, you have no claim to right or wrong either.
Claiming a de facto industry standard (I avoided the literally sidebar
here) on majority is a questionable argument. Large numbers do not make
right. There are many examples where the majority is wrong. Well I go along
with majority practice knowing they are wrong, just to make life easier. 
I try not to yell at people though for choosing differently. And it is
questionable to get you anywhere anytime fast. And I do not like that Gene
was called an "epitome of humanity" in a cynical way and I earned a
hypocrite long after I copped out of that discussion.


Please let this rest.

-H


-- 
Henning Follmann   | hfollm...@itcfollmann.com

Re: OT: Top Posting

[Nicolas George]

Cindy Sue Causey (12024-05-15):
> PS Afterthought is that email signatures are another of that widely
> accepted netiquette set of standards.

You can add the “Re: ” to that list.

It is the sequence of four octets 0x52, 0x65, 0x3a, 0x20, and nothing
else.

The MUAs who write “RE: ” are wrong.

The MUAs who write “Re : ” are wrong.

The MUAs who write “AW: ” are wrong.

The MUAs who put it in base64 are wrong.

It is not a string that is designed to be internationalized, we cannot
expect every MUA to know every stupid local or vanity variant of “Re: ”.

Regards,

-- 
  Nicolas George

Re: OT: Top Posting

[gene heskett]

On 5/15/24 10:06, Nicolas George wrote:

Cindy Sue Causey (12024-05-15):

Best as I was able to discern from the Net [0], 72 characters is the
magic number for line length because 4 extra characters are added to
both ends when e.g. git processes submissions. Makes good common sense
to me.


Git is an order of magnitude younger than the limit at 72 characters.


PS I thought it was 80. Guess it was about those extra 8 characters.


It is 80 but you anticipate that people will be adding “> ” in front of
your lines.


"Pretty well agreed upon..." That's implying that unspoken list
standards are really not users "picking on each other." Listserv
standards is a concept that has evolved over decades for rational
reasons as Developer and User communications evolved.


Indeed.


It's easy to mess up badly while moving emails around


As a general rule, GUIs suck at anything but trivial tasks.


Evolution appears to do some form of maybe symlinking instead of
downloading so everything is available almost immediately seconds after
the first time Evolution is ever fired up.


The IMAP protocol is designed to let us manipulate mails directly on the
server without downloading the bulk of them. A lot of GUI MUA are still
designed around the old paradigm where mails are downloaded, and turned
it into some kind of cache: it rarely works well.

Manipulate mails directly on the server. Have a backup. If your server
is often down and accessing the mails is urgent, have a local *copy* of
it.


reach back a limited time span into history before I a-sume Gmail cut
off access to touching older emails.


If you want mail that works well, start by avoiding services meant for
the lowest common denominator of the general public.

Regards,

I'll add that googles gmail, written by former outlook developers is the 
biggest pita to ever hit the net. They break every rfc that can.


Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: OT: Top Posting

[Greg Wooledge]

On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 09:46:08AM -0400, Cindy Sue Causey wrote:
> Best as I was able to discern from the Net [0], 72 characters is the
> magic number for line length because 4 extra characters are added to
> both ends when e.g. git processes submissions. Makes good common sense
> to me.
> 
> PS I thought it was 80. Guess it was about those extra 8 characters.

For many decades, there was an industry standard that lines of text
should be up to 80 characters wide.  Punch cards were 80 characters wide,
for example.  I don't know whether punch cards were the *first* place
it appeared, but they're the first I'm aware of.

A lot of the printers from the last century allowed 80 characters
per line on standard US 8.5x11 inch paper.  I'm not sure if teletypes
used 80-column paper, or 133-column paper (green bar), or a mixture.

Later, we got terminals.  A typical ASCII terminal (a physical one, like
a DEC VT-100) is 80x24 characters, or sometimes 80x25.  The 80-character
line standard continued.

When hardware evolved and most of us started using X11 or similar GUI
interfaces, terminal emulators became the norm.  xterm and other software
terminal emulators use an 80x24 window as the default, for compatibility
with physical terminals.

When writing code in most programming languages, there are style guides
that still suggest sticking to 80-character lines whenever possible.
It avoids line wrapping when being read in an 80-character terminal,
and besides that, really long lines of code are harder to read than
shorter lines.

When it comes to email or Usenet, though, the 72-character suggestion
is meant to allow a bit of room for quoting markup.  If I write a
79-character line of text, and then you reply to it with "> " in front,
the resulting 81-character line of text either gets wrapped or truncated.
Limiting yourself to 72-character lines allows a few levels of quoting
before the text becomes unreadable.

This is why the 72-character limit is just a suggestion, not a hard
requirement.  If you write lines that are 74 characters wide, probably
nobody's going to care.  The goal is simply to make it easy to carry
on a conversation.

Re: OT: Top Posting

[Cindy Sue Causey]

-Original Message-
From: Greg Wooledge 
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Subject: Re: OT: Top Posting
Date: 05/14/24 13:41:17

On Tue, May 14, 2024 at 05:01:31PM +, fxkl4...@protonmail.com wrote:
> how many times has this top post crap been dug up
> don't y'all have any thing better to do

It's never going to stop.  We have a clash of two cultures here.

The first culture are Unix users who grew up with Internet email and
Usenet news.  For people in this culture, there is a well-defined set
of "netiquette" rules -- plain text messages, inline quoting with "> "
citation characters, lines limited to ~72 characters, etc.



Too funny for words! Make that twice now that I've seen line length
mentioned here on Debian in over a decade++. I also referenced the
inline quoting method since my new chosen email software appears to be
failing with its default on that feature. Will try AGAIN to fix that as
soon as I hit "Send" here BECAUSE tech reply emails are difficult to
follow without those stacked ">" over ">>" pointers attached showing who
said what when.

And, yeah, netiquette, that's the word echoed across the Internet. I
totally forgot that in my own response. It's not users picking on each
other. It's a respectful "virtual handshake approved" set of standards
with the straightforward purpose of putting everyone on as close to the
same page as is humanly possible.

PS Afterthought is that email signatures are another of that widely
accepted netiquette set of standards. I consciously altered mine many
years ago after reading about that, most likely also here on Debian-
User. Might have been over on W3C, too, now that I think about it.
That's where I first heard of Linux circa 1999.

W3C's Linux reference was about installing HTML validators locally, and
the rest is terminal command line history. Thank you, Developers! What
you all do and that works so near flawlessly in nanoseconds still..
blows my mind to this.. second. Watching daily upgrades methodically
unfold as each package successfully coordinates its place in line with
the others is pure magic. :)

Cindy :)
-- 
Talking Rock, Pickens County, North Georgia
* runs with birdseed! *

Re: OT: Top Posting

[Nicolas George]

Cindy Sue Causey (12024-05-15):
> Best as I was able to discern from the Net [0], 72 characters is the
> magic number for line length because 4 extra characters are added to
> both ends when e.g. git processes submissions. Makes good common sense
> to me.

Git is an order of magnitude younger than the limit at 72 characters.

> PS I thought it was 80. Guess it was about those extra 8 characters.

It is 80 but you anticipate that people will be adding “> ” in front of
your lines.

> "Pretty well agreed upon..." That's implying that unspoken list
> standards are really not users "picking on each other." Listserv
> standards is a concept that has evolved over decades for rational
> reasons as Developer and User communications evolved.

Indeed.

> It's easy to mess up badly while moving emails around

As a general rule, GUIs suck at anything but trivial tasks.

> Evolution appears to do some form of maybe symlinking instead of
> downloading so everything is available almost immediately seconds after
> the first time Evolution is ever fired up.

The IMAP protocol is designed to let us manipulate mails directly on the
server without downloading the bulk of them. A lot of GUI MUA are still
designed around the old paradigm where mails are downloaded, and turned
it into some kind of cache: it rarely works well.

Manipulate mails directly on the server. Have a backup. If your server
is often down and accessing the mails is urgent, have a local *copy* of
it.

> reach back a limited time span into history before I a-sume Gmail cut
> off access to touching older emails.

If you want mail that works well, start by avoiding services meant for
the lowest common denominator of the general public.

Regards,

-- 
  Nicolas George

Re: OT: Top Posting

[Cindy Sue Causey]

-Original Message-
From: gene heskett 
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Subject: Re: OT: Top Posting
Date: 05/14/24 10:54:50

On 5/14/24 10:09, Richard wrote:
Just because something isn't an official ISO standard doesn't mean
it's 
not standard behavior. And how it relates to this mailing list? It's 
called a setting.

No its not, its your refusal to use the down arrow in your reply editor 
to put your reply after the question. It really is that simple. If your 
choice of email agents cannot do that, its time to switch to an agent 
that can. There are dozens of them.


DISCLAIMER: I just realized above portion might not quote properly. My
apologies in advance if it does not. That's one glitch I haven't located
a fix for, yet.

The rest of the email: I think Evolution has finally fixed my own latest
issues with tech reply emails just since Gmail forced all users onto its
more dynamic release. My biggest issue is, hopefully "was," line length.
This email is only my second reply sent in maybe 2 months so am about to
find out how things are progressing.

Accidentally just this second was reminded there's a setting for
avoiding top posting by lunging to bottom of reply emails. That setting
is found by going through the now classic 3-line settings "hamburger"
then:

Edit > Preferences > Composer Preferences > General (tab)

There's a simple toggle on/off checkbox that says, "Start typing at the
bottom." The setting for word wrapping is just a few lines above that.

Regarding line length (word wrapping), that's an even less spoken
"standard" that has merit at its base. I think I've seen it mentioned
maybe one time in more than a decade++ on Debian. That "standard" is
about usability.. readability.. aka conscious consideration for fellow
list members.

Best as I was able to discern from the Net [0], 72 characters is the
magic number for line length because 4 extra characters are added to
both ends when e.g. git processes submissions. Makes good common sense
to me.

PS I thought it was 80. Guess it was about those extra 8 characters.
Or.. Maybe whoever I saw write that over ten years ago almost understood
that "handshake standard" but not quite. That's one scary part of
trusting strangers on the WWW. :)

Again back to the concept of tech listserv standards, the source I'm
referencing after randomly finding it via search this morning says, "The
50/72 Rule is a set of standards that are pretty well agreed upon in the
industry to standardize the format of commit messages."

"Pretty well agreed upon..." That's implying that unspoken list
standards are really not users "picking on each other." Listserv
standards is a concept that has evolved over decades for rational
reasons as Developer and User communications evolved.

Am not embarrassed to say Evolution has kicked my backside k/t its
learning curve versus a user's level of cognitive ability. This
experience ended up touching on "frightening" a couple times, e.g. I
sent 2,000 online emails to (online) trash when that was not intended.
It's easy to mess up badly while moving emails around between desktop
folders because that activity directly affects the linked online email
provider if a user approves those access permissions. 

For what it's worth as a huge selling point for me, I have a massive
online email account. There are hundreds of thousands of emails from the
last 20 years. Evolution said whatever, bring it on.

Evolution appears to do some form of maybe symlinking instead of
downloading so everything is available almost immediately seconds after
the first time Evolution is ever fired up. Other email software I've
used only seems to work by downloading. That difference is huge for
anyone using a data download limiting Internet provider. NOTE: Evolution
appears to possibly offer related tweaking if one prefers working
offline.

In the other email software cases I attempted, the software could only
reach back a limited time span into history before I a-sume Gmail cut
off access to touching older emails. If there's a work-around for that,
I never found it. I simply (and immediately) purged the email software,
instead.

With Evolution, I'm instantly looking at emails I haven't seen in ~20
years. I was having a horrible time accessing those same emails in Gmail
itself online. Talk about mind blowing nostalgia overload...

Cindy :)

[0]
https://dev.to/noelworden/improving-your-commit-message-with-the-50-72-rule-3g79
-- 
Talking Rock, Pickens County, North Georgia
* runs with birdseed! *

Markup in mail messages (was: Re: OT: Top Posting)

[Max Nikulin]

On 15/05/2024 02:32, Greg Wooledge wrote:

On Tue, May 14, 2024 at 08:16:20PM +0200, Nicolas George wrote:

Messages in Markdown in the Windows world? I have never seen it.

[...]

The only sensible interpretation I can
come up with for why these asterisks were added is that they're being
placed around text that's supposed to be emphasized/italicized.


*Bold*, /italics/, and _underlined_ markup is supported by various
mailers, e.g. Thunderbird and Gnus. Some render superscripts^1 and
subscripts_2 as well.

Backticks (`echo $PATH`) are more specific to markdown. However
sometimes I use them not expecting that the message will be rendered as
markdown. Just to avoid ambiguity where a piece of code starts and ends.

Re: OT: Top Posting

[Larry Martell]

On Tue, May 14, 2024 at 6:05 PM Jeffrey Walton  wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, May 14, 2024 at 2:40 PM Richard  wrote:
>
>> You really must think of yourself as being the epitome of human creation.
>> I don't see any use in continuing this nonsense. If you don't have anything
>> relevant to say, this case is closed for me.
>>
>
> Who are you talking about? There are two people in the reply below.
>

Gene IS the epitome of human creation.



>
>> Am Di., 14. Mai 2024 um 16:55 Uhr schrieb gene heskett <
>> ghesk...@shentel.net>:
>>
>>> On 5/14/24 10:09, Richard wrote:
>>> > Just because something isn't an official ISO standard doesn't mean
>>> it's
>>> > not standard behavior. And how it relates to this mailing list? It's
>>> > called a setting.
>>> >
>>> No its not, its your refusal to use the down arrow in your reply editor
>>> to put your reply after the question. It really is that simple. If your
>>> choice of email agents cannot do that, its time to switch to an agent
>>> that can. There are dozens of them.
>>>
>>> > Am Di., 14. Mai 2024 um 15:57 Uhr schrieb Loris Bennett
>>> > mailto:loris.benn...@fu-berlin.de>>:
>>> >
>>> > Hi Richard,
>>> >
>>> > Richard mailto:rrosn...@gmail.com>> writes:
>>> >
>>> >  > "Top posting" (writing the answer above the text that's being
>>> replied
>>> >  > to) is literally industry standard behavior.
>>> >
>>> > Can you provide a link to the standard you are referring to?
>>> >
>>> > Assuming such a standard exists, how would it apply to this
>>> newsgroup?
>>> >
>>> > [snip (51 lines)]
>>> >
>>> > Cheers,
>>> >
>>> > Loris
>>>
>>> Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
>>>
>>

Re: OT: Top Posting

[fxkl47BF]

On Tue, 14 May 2024, Andy Smith wrote:

> Hello,
>
> On Tue, May 14, 2024 at 05:01:31PM +, fxkl4...@protonmail.com wrote:
>> don't y'all have any thing better to do
>
> You must be new here.

sorta
i've only been using versions of linux since the early 90's :)
downloaded it from an archie server on to 2 floppies

>
> Get used to reading with a "mark thread read" key in your MUA of
> choice, is my best advice.

i've got to admit to being weak
reading the brilliant and riveting prose is addictive
and entertainment is in short supply around here
especially after the chickens go to bed


>
> Thanks,
> Andy
>
> --
> https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting
>

Re: OT: Top Posting

[Andy Smith]

Hello,

On Tue, May 14, 2024 at 05:01:31PM +, fxkl4...@protonmail.com wrote:
> don't y'all have any thing better to do

You must be new here.

Get used to reading with a "mark thread read" key in your MUA of
choice, is my best advice.

Thanks,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Re: OT: Top Posting

[debian-user]

Greg Wooledge  wrote:

> In this particular instance, we've got a person from the second
> culture who seems to have no idea that other cultures exist, or that
> a mailing list might not adhere to their own expectations.  This
> person is acting belligerantly, and will not listen to gentle
> reminders.

There's another point that this person doesn't seem to realize, which
is that he's the one asking for help, and so he should be making
efforts to adapt to the desires of those he wishes to help him, rather
than trying to insist they adapt to his ways :(

But there's a noticeably slower response to his posts now, so maybe
he'll learn by experience.

Re: OT: Top Posting

[Greg Wooledge]

On Tue, May 14, 2024 at 08:16:20PM +0200, Nicolas George wrote:
> Messages in Markdown in the Windows world? I have never seen it.

I can't be sure where they're coming from exactly, but every once in
a while I see messages on debian-user, bug-bash or help-bash which
have extra asterisk characters scattered throughout them (usually
make the code samples break).  The only sensible interpretation I can
come up with for why these asterisks were added is that they're being
placed around text that's supposed to be emphasized/italicized.

When reading the message with the idea that "this might be markdown
text" in mind, it's possible to guess, in most cases, which asterisks
should be removed to render the code samples or terminal session pastes
correct.

Re: OT: Top Posting

[Jeffrey Walton]

On Tue, May 14, 2024 at 2:40 PM Richard  wrote:

> You really must think of yourself as being the epitome of human creation.
> I don't see any use in continuing this nonsense. If you don't have anything
> relevant to say, this case is closed for me.
>

Who are you talking about? There are two people in the reply below.

Jeff


> Am Di., 14. Mai 2024 um 16:55 Uhr schrieb gene heskett <
> ghesk...@shentel.net>:
>
>> On 5/14/24 10:09, Richard wrote:
>> > Just because something isn't an official ISO standard doesn't mean it's
>> > not standard behavior. And how it relates to this mailing list? It's
>> > called a setting.
>> >
>> No its not, its your refusal to use the down arrow in your reply editor
>> to put your reply after the question. It really is that simple. If your
>> choice of email agents cannot do that, its time to switch to an agent
>> that can. There are dozens of them.
>>
>> > Am Di., 14. Mai 2024 um 15:57 Uhr schrieb Loris Bennett
>> > mailto:loris.benn...@fu-berlin.de>>:
>> >
>> > Hi Richard,
>> >
>> > Richard mailto:rrosn...@gmail.com>> writes:
>> >
>> >  > "Top posting" (writing the answer above the text that's being
>> replied
>> >  > to) is literally industry standard behavior.
>> >
>> > Can you provide a link to the standard you are referring to?
>> >
>> > Assuming such a standard exists, how would it apply to this
>> newsgroup?
>> >
>> > [snip (51 lines)]
>> >
>> > Cheers,
>> >
>> > Loris
>>
>> Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
>>
>

Re: OT: Top Posting

[Karen Lewellen]

well, speaking personally, I can respect both sides.
I use a screen reader.  Having to wade through loads of text, for a 
conversational  flow, especially when not edited is far from productive 
for me personally.
it is much better to have a top post, for me personally, because I have no 
issues  reading below..if needful.
I can only imagine what it is like for folks on small screens, having to 
translate from English etc.

Do I understand the conversation idea?
absolutely.
Do I also realize that if the thread is not edited the conversation is 
less fluid and more a lake of mud?


Absolutely as well.
Karen



On Tue, 14 May 2024, Nicolas George wrote:


Greg Wooledge (12024-05-14):

Usenet news.  For people in this culture, there is a well-defined set
of "netiquette" rules -- plain text messages, inline quoting with "> "
citation characters, lines limited to ~72 characters, etc.


I slightly disagree with this wording: you make it sound like we follow
the rules just because they are there. Not so: we follow the rules
because they make sense, because they make conversations more fluid:

- Limiting to 72 characters was good because a lot of terminals were 80
 columns, and it is still good because longer lines are hard to read
 but mail software still is not smart enough to rewrap text by the mile
 but not code.

- Trimmed interleaved quoting presents to the reader the exact
 information they need in the order they need it to understand the
 reply and what it is about.

In summary, the hackers culture expects the sender to spend a little
effort into making the mail easy to read for the recipient(s) while the
culture of the general population expects the sender to make as little
effort as possible and the recipient(s) to bear the burden that the
software in between cannot take, i.e. most of it.

And the “(s)” tells us which culture is more efficient and why.


The second culture are Windows users who grew up with Microsoft products
in their school or workplace.  In this culture, top-posting is the norm,
and inline quoting is nigh impossible.  Messages are often sent in either
HTML or markdown format.


Messages in Markdown in the Windows world? I have never seen it.


The best course of action in this case is to drop it


Indeed. But we can still discuss cultural issues relevant to
mailing-lists around it.

Regards,

--
 Nicolas George

Re: OT: Top Posting

[Andrew M.A. Cater]

On Tue, May 14, 2024 at 05:01:31PM +, fxkl4...@protonmail.com wrote:
> how many times has this top post crap been dug up
> don't y'all have any thing better to do
> i know
> how about some real debian issues
>

Hi, 

Have a quick look at the Debian-user FAQ posted each month and the 
Debian Code of Conduct.

Both of those are real Debian issues - they're part of the way that
this mailing list operates so that people can read and understand
long threads. They also allow us to maintain smaller archives
that nonetheless retain the important information.

May I suggest that you look back at about 30 years worth of the
history here?

All the very best, as ever,

Andy
(amaca...@debian.org)
 

Re: OT: Top Posting

[Nicolas George]

Greg Wooledge (12024-05-14):
> Usenet news.  For people in this culture, there is a well-defined set
> of "netiquette" rules -- plain text messages, inline quoting with "> "
> citation characters, lines limited to ~72 characters, etc.

I slightly disagree with this wording: you make it sound like we follow
the rules just because they are there. Not so: we follow the rules
because they make sense, because they make conversations more fluid:

- Limiting to 72 characters was good because a lot of terminals were 80
  columns, and it is still good because longer lines are hard to read
  but mail software still is not smart enough to rewrap text by the mile
  but not code.

- Trimmed interleaved quoting presents to the reader the exact
  information they need in the order they need it to understand the
  reply and what it is about.

In summary, the hackers culture expects the sender to spend a little
effort into making the mail easy to read for the recipient(s) while the
culture of the general population expects the sender to make as little
effort as possible and the recipient(s) to bear the burden that the
software in between cannot take, i.e. most of it.

And the “(s)” tells us which culture is more efficient and why.

> The second culture are Windows users who grew up with Microsoft products
> in their school or workplace.  In this culture, top-posting is the norm,
> and inline quoting is nigh impossible.  Messages are often sent in either
> HTML or markdown format.

Messages in Markdown in the Windows world? I have never seen it.

> The best course of action in this case is to drop it

Indeed. But we can still discuss cultural issues relevant to
mailing-lists around it.

Regards,

-- 
  Nicolas George

Re: OT: Top Posting

[James H. H. Lampert]

On 5/14/24 10:41 AM, Greg Wooledge wrote:

We have a clash of two cultures here.


More than just *nix vs. M$.

In business communications by email, the norm is to quote the *entire* 
thread, every time, without paring anything down, purely for the sake of 
CYA. As such, top-posting is the only reasonable alternative, given that 
recipients would otherwise have to scroll through hundreds, perhaps 
thousands of lines of quoted material to find a bottom-posted reply, or 
worse, *actually read* through all that quoted material to find an 
inline-posted reply.


In list-server communications (and to a lesser extent, BBS posts), the 
norm is to pare down quoted material to the barest minimum needed to 
provide context (originally to save bandwidth and storage, both of which 
are *still* finite resources), and to bottom-post or inline-post one's 
replies, in order to give them a more natural flow. CYA doesn't factor 
in at all.


--
JHHL

Re: OT: Top Posting

[Greg Wooledge]

On Tue, May 14, 2024 at 05:01:31PM +, fxkl4...@protonmail.com wrote:
> how many times has this top post crap been dug up
> don't y'all have any thing better to do

It's never going to stop.  We have a clash of two cultures here.

The first culture are Unix users who grew up with Internet email and
Usenet news.  For people in this culture, there is a well-defined set
of "netiquette" rules -- plain text messages, inline quoting with "> "
citation characters, lines limited to ~72 characters, etc.

For users in this first group, email is often read and composed on a
terminal, or a terminal emulator.  Characters are displayed in a
fixed-width font.  ASCII art is possible, albeit frowned upon as
juvenile.

The second culture are Windows users who grew up with Microsoft products
in their school or workplace.  In this culture, top-posting is the norm,
and inline quoting is nigh impossible.  Messages are often sent in either
HTML or markdown format.  Whole paragraphs are presented as single lines.
Explicit line breaks are only used between paragraphs.

Users in this second group typically use Microsoft Outlook, or a
web-based mail user agent in a graphical environment.  Fonts are
variable-width, and any ASCII art or tables will not align properly.

Now, normally when these cultures clash, we're able to point to the
Debian netiquette guidelines, and move on.

In this particular instance, we've got a person from the second culture
who seems to have no idea that other cultures exist, or that a mailing
list might not adhere to their own expectations.  This person is acting
belligerantly, and will not listen to gentle reminders.

The best course of action in this case is to drop it, but pride can make
people do the wrong things sometimes.

Re: OT: Top Posting

[fxkl47BF]

how many times has this top post crap been dug up
don't y'all have any thing better to do
i know
how about some real debian issues

Re: OT: Top Posting (was: Dovecot correct ownership for logs)

[tomas]

On Tue, May 14, 2024 at 04:08:19PM +0200, Richard wrote:
> Just because something isn't an official ISO standard doesn't mean it's not
> standard behavior. And how it relates to this mailing list? It's called a
> setting.

Most people prefer inline quoting around here (I know I do). That's
because for big mailing lists, with long threads, it works much, much
better.

That said, we usually are tolerant of top posts. What gets me
is the hostility of your reaction. You aren't going to convince
anyone. Even not with "industry standards" [1]

As far as your main concern goes... I lost interest.

Cheers

[1] Q: How many Microsoft technicians does it take to change a
   light bulb?
A: None, they just redefine Darkness (TM) as the new industry
   standard.

https://www.linux.com/news/how-many-microsoft-technicians-does-it-take-change-light-bulb/

-- 
t


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: OT: Top Posting

[Richard]

You really must think of yourself as being the epitome of human creation. I
don't see any use in continuing this nonsense. If you don't have anything
relevant to say, this case is closed for me.

Am Di., 14. Mai 2024 um 16:55 Uhr schrieb gene heskett :

> On 5/14/24 10:09, Richard wrote:
> > Just because something isn't an official ISO standard doesn't mean it's
> > not standard behavior. And how it relates to this mailing list? It's
> > called a setting.
> >
> No its not, its your refusal to use the down arrow in your reply editor
> to put your reply after the question. It really is that simple. If your
> choice of email agents cannot do that, its time to switch to an agent
> that can. There are dozens of them.
>
> > Am Di., 14. Mai 2024 um 15:57 Uhr schrieb Loris Bennett
> > mailto:loris.benn...@fu-berlin.de>>:
> >
> > Hi Richard,
> >
> > Richard mailto:rrosn...@gmail.com>> writes:
> >
> >  > "Top posting" (writing the answer above the text that's being
> replied
> >  > to) is literally industry standard behavior.
> >
> > Can you provide a link to the standard you are referring to?
> >
> > Assuming such a standard exists, how would it apply to this
> newsgroup?
> >
> > [snip (51 lines)]
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Loris
> >
> > --
> > This signature is currently under constuction.
> >
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
> --
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>   soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
> If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
>   - Louis D. Brandeis
>
>

Re: OT: Top Posting

[gene heskett]

On 5/14/24 10:09, Richard wrote:
Just because something isn't an official ISO standard doesn't mean it's 
not standard behavior. And how it relates to this mailing list? It's 
called a setting.


No its not, its your refusal to use the down arrow in your reply editor 
to put your reply after the question. It really is that simple. If your 
choice of email agents cannot do that, its time to switch to an agent 
that can. There are dozens of them.


Am Di., 14. Mai 2024 um 15:57 Uhr schrieb Loris Bennett 
mailto:loris.benn...@fu-berlin.de>>:


Hi Richard,

Richard mailto:rrosn...@gmail.com>> writes:

 > "Top posting" (writing the answer above the text that's being replied
 > to) is literally industry standard behavior.

Can you provide a link to the standard you are referring to?

Assuming such a standard exists, how would it apply to this newsgroup?

[snip (51 lines)]

Cheers,

Loris

-- 
This signature is currently under constuction.




Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: OT: Top Posting (was: Dovecot correct ownership for logs)

[Richard]

Just because something isn't an official ISO standard doesn't mean it's not
standard behavior. And how it relates to this mailing list? It's called a
setting.

Am Di., 14. Mai 2024 um 15:57 Uhr schrieb Loris Bennett <
loris.benn...@fu-berlin.de>:

> Hi Richard,
>
> Richard  writes:
>
> > "Top posting" (writing the answer above the text that's being replied
> > to) is literally industry standard behavior.
>
> Can you provide a link to the standard you are referring to?
>
> Assuming such a standard exists, how would it apply to this newsgroup?
>
> [snip (51 lines)]
>
> Cheers,
>
> Loris
>
> --
> This signature is currently under constuction.
>
>

OT: Top Posting (was: Dovecot correct ownership for logs)

[Loris Bennett]

Hi Richard,

Richard  writes:

> "Top posting" (writing the answer above the text that's being replied
> to) is literally industry standard behavior.

Can you provide a link to the standard you are referring to?

Assuming such a standard exists, how would it apply to this newsgroup?

[snip (51 lines)]

Cheers,

Loris

-- 
This signature is currently under constuction.

Re: top bar the way I want it

[David Christensen]

On 1/20/24 13:05, Maureen L Thomas wrote:

On 1/20/24 1:46 AM, David Christensen wrote:

On 1/19/24 21:53, Maureen L Thomas wrote:
I am using Gnome, and I found the stuff I needed to get my desktop 
the way I wanted it.  I am very happy about it.  Now I just have to 
put NordVPN to connect with my browser.  Thank you for the help, it 
is greatly appreciated.



I am glad it worked out for you.  :-)


Part of participating in an Internet mailing list like debian-user is 
posting the solution to your question, so that other people can 
benefit.  Please document your solution.

>
> The package that held the chanages I wanted was called Extension Manager
> and Extensions.  That file gave me options for the top bar and the
> bottom bar.  Hope this helps.


Thank you.  :-)


Post your solutions is a good habit.  In the future, you may run into 
the same problem, STFW for a solution, and find your previous post!



David

Re: top bar the way I want it

[Maureen L Thomas]

The package that held the chanages I wanted was called Extension Manager 
and Extensions.  That file gave me options for the top bar and the 
bottom bar.  Hope this helps.


On 1/20/24 1:46 AM, David Christensen wrote:

On 1/19/24 21:53, Maureen L Thomas wrote:
I am using Gnome, and I found the stuff I needed to get my desktop 
the way I wanted it.  I am very happy about it.  Now I just have to 
put NordVPN to connect with my browser.  Thank you for the help, it 
is greatly appreciated.



I am glad it worked out for you.  :-)


Part of participating in an Internet mailing list like debian-user is 
posting the solution to your question, so that other people can 
benefit.  Please document your solution.



David

Re: top bar the way I want it

[Bottom Post]

On Sat, Jan 20, 2024 at 12:53:22AM -0500, Maureen L Thomas wrote:
>   ... and I found the stuff I needed to get my desktop
> the way I wanted it.  I am very happy about it.

Nice.  Thanks for reporting back.


> Now I just have to ... with my ...

Yeah, right.



> Thank you for the help, it is greatly appreciated.


Good ways to express appreciation is by actual meeting the people.
On mailinglists does mean meeting them half way, meet on common ground.

Think "help those from whom you want help".  For starters a Subject line
that matches message body content. Good subject lines are a huge help
with "What is it about?". Good subject lines also transmit "I have put
effort in composing my email, you are invited to put in further effort".
And yes, bad subject lines transmit "Minimal effort from my side,
expecting minimal effort from your side" also "Here laziness, tell me
what I can buy with it".


The real challenge goes inside the email. Aim for "very good", settle
for "good", stay away from "good enough" for others and stay away for
"perfect" for yourself. Go for "interresting for all", avoid "I have
a problem and you must help me".


Ahd there is another import thing. Understand "world wide", understand
the concept of time zones. People on this mailinglist are from across
the globe, so from different time zones by definition. It means seeing
much emails that were written while you were sleeping, it means you will
be writing email for some that are sleeping. Do NOT assume that
recievers does know what preciously has been written, so do not top
post. Reply below precious text. Make it possible that your audience can
read in the discussion order. When I see "top post", I think "the life
form does not know to whom they are writing". And wonder "What else are
they missing?".




Groeten
Geert Stappers
-- 
Silence is hard to parse

Re: top bar the way I want it

[Mike Castle]

On Sat, Jan 20, 2024 at 9:12 AM Jeremy Nicoll
 wrote:
> And, of course, write notes to yourself for EVERY change like this, so
> you can remember how you did it.

I actually have a quarterly reminder for myself to review my various
systems and take notes on changes.  Installed packages, make sure
config files are captured in source control, was I running any A/B
experiments to see if I like a new font better than the old one, etc.
While most of this I do as I go along, I find having a regular true-up
is useful to make sure I didn't miss anything.

This applies to my computers, phones, car gadgets, kitchen layout, etc.

mrc

Re: top bar the way I want it

[Jeremy Nicoll]

On Sat, 20 Jan 2024, at 05:53, Maureen L Thomas wrote:
> I am using Gnome, and I found the stuff I needed to get my desktop the 
> way I wanted it. 

It might be sensible to screenshot the setup you like.  If you have similar
problems in future it would help enormously to be able to show people
the layout you like vv the one you get immediately after a reinstall.

And, of course, write notes to yourself for EVERY change like this, so 
you can remember how you did it.

-- 
Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

Re: top bar the way I want it

[David Christensen]

On 1/19/24 21:53, Maureen L Thomas wrote:
I am using Gnome, and I found the stuff I needed to get my desktop the 
way I wanted it.  I am very happy about it.  Now I just have to put 
NordVPN to connect with my browser.  Thank you for the help, it is 
greatly appreciated.



I am glad it worked out for you.  :-)


Part of participating in an Internet mailing list like debian-user is 
posting the solution to your question, so that other people can benefit. 
 Please document your solution.



David

Re: top bar the way I want it

[Maureen L Thomas]

I am using Gnome, and I found the stuff I needed to get my desktop the 
way I wanted it.  I am very happy about it.  Now I just have to put 
NordVPN to connect with my browser.  Thank you for the help, it is 
greatly appreciated.


On 1/19/24 7:17 AM, Joe wrote:

  On 1/18/24 1:17 AM, Beyond Insulted wrote:

On Wed, Jan 17, 2024 at 08:40:30PM -0500, Maureen L Thomas wrote:

 I now have a system that works but I cannot find any
utility to fix the top bar the way I want it.  Any hints?

Try to understand the audience that is being asked.

Imaging that they were willing to help and stopped doing so
because the "the way I want it" is a way too poor description.

 

Moe

Groeten
Geert Stappers

On Thu, 18 Jan 2024 23:02:21 -0500
Maureen L Thomas  wrote:


I am sorry for the way I said that.  What I want is the very top bar,
before I re-installed it had three topics on the very top left hand
that allowed me to click on one of them and get a menu of all the
software installed and in order according to the topic.  Like under
internet would list all the internet software. Right now I have to
use that dot thing to see what is installed. It is a pain.  I cannot
find the utility to change the settings for the top bar or the bottom
bar or the sidebar I used daily with a list of the browsers, and
special software that is used daily. Again I apologize for the
previous, I was very uptight over my inability to remember what I
need to do.


We cannot all recollect all that has gone before.

There is very large flexibility as to the Linux display. There are four
major desktop environments and several derivatives of them. Some people
don't use a DE at all, just a window manager.

I use Xfce4 and its own panels, with one panel to the top left and one
panel top right, with a third tiny panel just containing an analogue
clock.

Most configuration can be achieved by right-clicking on a panel then
Panel-> Panel Preferences. The size, position and number of panels can
be controlled in that way. Launchers can be added to panels, and
applications can be added to launchers. Mostly one launcher contains
one application.

I don't know what display configuration you have, but a good start is
to right-click on whatever bars you have, and explore the menus.

The main application menu can pretty much always be opened by
right-clicking on an empty part of the desktop and choosing
Applications. This set of menus, grouped as you say be approximate
function, can be edited by a couple of applications, one of which is the
Gnome alacarte, which I use. This is not normally installed by default
on Debian, but can be installed in the usual way. If you don't already
have Gnome or some of its applications, it will probably bring in a
distressing list of dependencies.

Let us know more about what desktop environment you use, and we can
probably give better advice. Unfortunately, while reinstalling can fix
many problems fairly easily, it does bring with it the need to rebuild
the configurations of many things.

Re: top bar the way I want it

[Joe]

 On 1/18/24 1:17 AM, Beyond Insulted wrote:
> > On Wed, Jan 17, 2024 at 08:40:30PM -0500, Maureen L Thomas wrote:  
> >> I now have a system that works but I cannot find any
> >> utility to fix the top bar the way I want it.  Any hints?  
> > Try to understand the audience that is being asked.
> >
> > Imaging that they were willing to help and stopped doing so
> > because the "the way I want it" is a way too poor description.
> >
> > 
> >> Moe  
> >
> > Groeten
> > Geert Stappers  

On Thu, 18 Jan 2024 23:02:21 -0500
Maureen L Thomas  wrote:

> I am sorry for the way I said that.  What I want is the very top bar, 
> before I re-installed it had three topics on the very top left hand
> that allowed me to click on one of them and get a menu of all the
> software installed and in order according to the topic.  Like under
> internet would list all the internet software. Right now I have to
> use that dot thing to see what is installed. It is a pain.  I cannot
> find the utility to change the settings for the top bar or the bottom
> bar or the sidebar I used daily with a list of the browsers, and
> special software that is used daily. Again I apologize for the
> previous, I was very uptight over my inability to remember what I
> need to do.
> 
We cannot all recollect all that has gone before.

There is very large flexibility as to the Linux display. There are four
major desktop environments and several derivatives of them. Some people
don't use a DE at all, just a window manager.

I use Xfce4 and its own panels, with one panel to the top left and one
panel top right, with a third tiny panel just containing an analogue
clock.

Most configuration can be achieved by right-clicking on a panel then
Panel-> Panel Preferences. The size, position and number of panels can
be controlled in that way. Launchers can be added to panels, and
applications can be added to launchers. Mostly one launcher contains
one application.

I don't know what display configuration you have, but a good start is
to right-click on whatever bars you have, and explore the menus. 

The main application menu can pretty much always be opened by
right-clicking on an empty part of the desktop and choosing
Applications. This set of menus, grouped as you say be approximate
function, can be edited by a couple of applications, one of which is the
Gnome alacarte, which I use. This is not normally installed by default
on Debian, but can be installed in the usual way. If you don't already
have Gnome or some of its applications, it will probably bring in a
distressing list of dependencies.

Let us know more about what desktop environment you use, and we can
probably give better advice. Unfortunately, while reinstalling can fix
many problems fairly easily, it does bring with it the need to rebuild
the configurations of many things.

-- 
Joe

Re: top bar the way I want it

[Maureen L Thomas]

I am sorry for the way I said that.  What I want is the very top bar, 
before I re-installed it had three topics on the very top left hand that 
allowed me to click on one of them and get a menu of all the software 
installed and in order according to the topic.  Like under internet 
would list all the internet software. Right now I have to use that dot 
thing to see what is installed. It is a pain.  I cannot find the utility 
to change the settings for the top bar or the bottom bar or the sidebar 
I used daily with a list of the browsers, and special software that is 
used daily. Again I apologize for the previous, I was very uptight over 
my inability to remember what I need to do.


On 1/18/24 1:17 AM, Beyond Insulted wrote:

On Wed, Jan 17, 2024 at 08:40:30PM -0500, Maureen L Thomas wrote:

    I now have a system that works but I cannot find any utility
to fix the top bar the way I want it.  Any hints?

Try to understand the audience that is being asked.

Imaging that they were willing to help and stopped doing so
because the "the way I want it" is a way too poor description.

  

Moe


Groeten
Geert Stappers

top bar the way I want it

[Beyond Insulted]

On Wed, Jan 17, 2024 at 08:40:30PM -0500, Maureen L Thomas wrote:
>    I now have a system that works but I cannot find any utility
> to fix the top bar the way I want it.  Any hints?

Try to understand the audience that is being asked.

Imaging that they were willing to help and stopped doing so
because the "the way I want it" is a way too poor description.

 
> Moe


Groeten
Geert Stappers
-- 
Silence is hard to parse

Re: Temporary failure in name resolution error when I try to ping Debian 12 / DomU running on top of the Devuan 5 host os / Dom0

[Andrew M.A. Cater]

On Sun, Nov 19, 2023 at 10:54:08PM +0100, Mario Marietto wrote:
> Hello.
> 
> I'm trying to configure Debian 12 / DomU on my (Arm32) Chromebook because I
> want to use the Internet and I want its IP address to be seen from
> "outside" of my LAN.
> 
> This is the tutorial that I'm following :
> 


I'm pleased for you that it now appears to be working so this comment comes
after the fact.

You are asking three separate questions here, in some sense:

You have a Chromebook - so ChromeOS underlying everything, potentially

A Xen subsystem running Devuan - note, not Debian

A Debian 12 as the guest OS?

The number of folk on this list with a Chromebook is small, potentially.
The number with Xen experience is a subset of that.
The number with Devuan experience is a subset of that.

You were very fortunate indeed that someone here was able to resolve anything.

For the future:

* For Devuan, please ask their support channels on IRC -
https://www.devuan.org/os/community
 or their mailing lists on DNG -
 https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng

* Ask _their_ experts for expertise with Xen under Devuan

After you have exhausted Devuan expertise, please write up what advice
you have already received and then come to Debian.

As often reiterated here: this mailing list only has significant expertise
in Debian, and  not necessarily every Debian-derived distribution. Please use
appropriate sources for advice if you practicably can
 
>

With every good wish, as ever,

Andy

(amaca...@debian.org)
  
> A) on the host os (Devuan 5)
> 
> Linux devuan-bunsen 6.1.61-stb-xen-cbe+ #1 SMP PREEMPT Sat Nov  4 13:46:17
> EDT 2023 armv7l
> 
> root@devuan-bunsen:~# ifconfig
> 
> lo: flags=73  mtu 65536
>inet 127.0.0.1  netmask 255.0.0.0
>inet6 ::1  prefixlen 128  scopeid 0x10
>loop  txqueuelen 1000  (Local Loopback)
>RX packets 2729  bytes 8279984 (7.8 MiB)
>RX errors 0  dropped 0  overruns 0  frame 0
>TX packets 2729  bytes 8279984 (7.8 MiB)
>TX errors 0  dropped 0 overruns 0  carrier 0  collisions 0
> 
> mlan0: flags=4163  mtu 1500
>inet 192.168.1.7  netmask 255.255.255.0  broadcast 192.168.1.255
>inet6 fe80::8839:239b:9b37:cf84  prefixlen 64  scopeid 0x20
>RX packets 19694  bytes 2193230 (2.0 MiB)
>RX errors 0  dropped 0  overruns 0  frame 0
>TX packets 18757  bytes 10464406 (9.9 MiB)
>TX errors 0  dropped 0 overruns 0  carrier 0  collisions 0
> 
> vif4.0: flags=4163  mtu 1500
>inet 192.168.1.7  netmask 255.255.255.255  broadcast 192.168.1.255
>ether fe:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff  txqueuelen 1000  (Ethernet)
>RX packets 359  bytes 94924 (92.6 KiB)
>RX errors 0  dropped 0  overruns 0  frame 0
>TX packets 42  bytes 1764 (1.7 KiB)
>TX errors 0  dropped 0 overruns 0  carrier 0  collisions 0
> 
> nano debian.cfg :
> 
> kernel = '/Dati/xen/kernels/zImage-6.1.61-stb-xen-cbe+'
> memory = '768'
> name = 'Debian-bookworm'
> vcpus = '1'
> disk = [ '/Dati/xen/debian.img,,xvda,w' ]
> vif = [ 'type=vif,mac=00:16:3e:12:34:56,script=vif-route' ]
> extra = 'console=hvc0 root=/dev/xvda rw init=/sbin/init
> xen-fbfront.video=24,1024,768'
> 
> 
> nano /etc/xen/scripts/vif-route-local :
> 
> #!/bin/bash
> #
> # ${XEN_SCRIPT_DIR}/vif-route
> #
> # Script for configuring a vif in routed mode.
> #
> # Usage:
> # vif-route (add|remove|online|offline)
> #
> # Environment vars:
> # dev vif interface name (required).
> # XENBUS_PATH path to this device's details in the XenStore (required).
> #
> # Read from the store:
> # ip  list of IP networks for the vif, space-separated (default given in
> # this script).
> #
> 
> dir=$(dirname "$0")
> . "${dir}/vif-common.sh"
> #netdev=$(mlan0)
> main_ip=$(dom0_ip)
> case "${command}" in
> add|online)
> echo $dev
>   echo $ip
> echo $main_ip
> ifconfig ${dev} ${main_ip} netmask 255.255.255.255 up
> echo 1 >/proc/sys/net/ipv4/conf/${dev}/proxy_arp
> echo 1 >/proc/sys/net/ipv4/conf/${dev}/forwarding
> echo 1 >/proc/sys/net/ipv4/conf/mlan0/forwarding
> echo 1 >/proc/sys/net/ipv4/conf/mlan0/proxy_arp
> /usr/sbin/arp -i mlan0 -Ds $main_ip mlan0 pub
> ipcmd='add'
> cmdprefix=''
> ;;
> remove|offline)
> do_without_error ifdown ${dev}
> ipcmd='del'
> cmdprefix='do_without_error'
> ;;
> esac
> 
> case "${type_if}" in
> tap)
> metric=1
> ;;
> vif)
> metric=2
> ;;
> *)
> fatal "Unrecognised interface type ${type_if}"
> ;;
> esac
> 
> # If we've been given a list of IP addresses, then add routes from dom0 to
> # the guest using those addresses.
> for addr in ${ip} ; do
> ${cmdprefix} ip route ${ipcmd} ${addr} dev ${dev} src ${main_ip} metric
> ${metric}
> done
> 
> handle_iptable
> 
> call_hooks vif post

Re: Temporary failure in name resolution error when I try to ping Debian 12 / DomU running on top of the Devuan 5 host os / Dom0

[Mario Marietto]

It does not care anymore. The instructions on the website are working. It's
me that I totally forgot to add the IP on the VIF statement of the
debian.cfg file. As soon as I added it and I changed $main_ip with $ip on
the vip-route-local,the network started working like a charm.

To work the vif-route script should be modified like this :


netdev=mlan0
main_ip=$(dom0_ip)
case "${command}" in add|online)
ifconfig ${dev} ${main_ip} netmask 255.255.255.255 up
echo 1 >/proc/sys/net/ipv4/conf/${dev}/proxy_arp
echo 1 >/proc/sys/net/ipv4/conf/${dev}/forwarding
echo 1 >/proc/sys/net/ipv4/conf/mlan0/forwarding
echo 1 >/proc/sys/net/ipv4/conf/mlan0/proxy_arp /usr/sbin/arp -i mlan0 -Ds

Thanks anyway.


On Sun, Nov 19, 2023 at 10:56 PM Mario Marietto 
wrote:

> Errata corrige :
>
> nano debian.cfg :
>
> kernel = '/Dati/xen/kernels/zImage-6.1.61-stb-xen-cbe+'
> memory = '768'
> name = 'Debian-bookworm'
> vcpus = '1'
> disk = [ '/Dati/xen/debian.img,,xvda,w' ]
> vif = [ 'type=vif,mac=00:16:3e:12:34:56,script=vif-route-*local*' ]
> extra = 'console=hvc0 root=/dev/xvda rw init=/sbin/init
> xen-fbfront.video=24,1024,768'
>
> On Sun, Nov 19, 2023 at 10:54 PM Mario Marietto 
> wrote:
>
>> Hello.
>>
>> I'm trying to configure Debian 12 / DomU on my (Arm32) Chromebook because
>> I want to use the Internet and I want its IP address to be seen from
>> "outside" of my LAN.
>>
>> This is the tutorial that I'm following :
>>
>>
>>
>> https://github.com/mobile-virt/u-boot-chromebook-xe303c12/tree/chromebook/xen#starting-a-domu-guest
>>
>> Given these config files :
>>
>>
>> A) on the host os (Devuan 5)
>>
>> Linux devuan-bunsen 6.1.61-stb-xen-cbe+ #1 SMP PREEMPT Sat Nov  4
>> 13:46:17 EDT 2023 armv7l
>>
>> root@devuan-bunsen:~# ifconfig
>>
>> lo: flags=73  mtu 65536
>>inet 127.0.0.1  netmask 255.0.0.0
>>inet6 ::1  prefixlen 128  scopeid 0x10
>>loop  txqueuelen 1000  (Local Loopback)
>>RX packets 2729  bytes 8279984 (7.8 MiB)
>>RX errors 0  dropped 0  overruns 0  frame 0
>>TX packets 2729  bytes 8279984 (7.8 MiB)
>>TX errors 0  dropped 0 overruns 0  carrier 0  collisions 0
>>
>> mlan0: flags=4163  mtu 1500
>>inet 192.168.1.7  netmask 255.255.255.0  broadcast 192.168.1.255
>>inet6 fe80::8839:239b:9b37:cf84  prefixlen 64  scopeid 0x20
>>RX packets 19694  bytes 2193230 (2.0 MiB)
>>RX errors 0  dropped 0  overruns 0  frame 0
>>TX packets 18757  bytes 10464406 (9.9 MiB)
>>TX errors 0  dropped 0 overruns 0  carrier 0  collisions 0
>>
>> vif4.0: flags=4163  mtu 1500
>>inet 192.168.1.7  netmask 255.255.255.255  broadcast 192.168.1.255
>>ether fe:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff  txqueuelen 1000  (Ethernet)
>>RX packets 359  bytes 94924 (92.6 KiB)
>>RX errors 0  dropped 0  overruns 0  frame 0
>>TX packets 42  bytes 1764 (1.7 KiB)
>>TX errors 0  dropped 0 overruns 0  carrier 0  collisions 0
>>
>> nano debian.cfg :
>>
>> kernel = '/Dati/xen/kernels/zImage-6.1.61-stb-xen-cbe+'
>> memory = '768'
>> name = 'Debian-bookworm'
>> vcpus = '1'
>> disk = [ '/Dati/xen/debian.img,,xvda,w' ]
>> vif = [ 'type=vif,mac=00:16:3e:12:34:56,script=vif-route' ]
>> extra = 'console=hvc0 root=/dev/xvda rw init=/sbin/init
>> xen-fbfront.video=24,1024,768'
>>
>>
>> nano /etc/xen/scripts/vif-route-local :
>>
>> #!/bin/bash
>>
>> #
>> # ${XEN_SCRIPT_DIR}/vif-route
>> #
>> # Script for configuring a vif in routed mode.
>> #
>> # Usage:
>> # vif-route (add|remove|online|offline)
>> #
>> # Environment vars:
>> # dev vif interface name (required).
>> # XENBUS_PATH path to this device's details in the XenStore (required).
>> #
>> # Read from the store:
>> # ip  list of IP networks for the vif, space-separated (default given
>> in
>> # this script).
>>
>> #
>>
>> dir=$(dirname "$0")
>> . "${dir}/vif-common.sh"
>> #netdev=$(mlan0)
>> main_ip=$(dom0_ip)
>> case "${command}" in
>> add|online)
>> echo $dev
>>   echo $ip
>> echo $main_ip
>> ifconfig ${dev} ${main_ip} netmask 255.255.255.255 up
>> echo 1 >/proc/sys/net/ipv4/conf/${dev}/proxy_arp
>> echo 1 >/proc/sys/net/ipv4/conf/${dev}/forwarding
>> echo 1 >/proc/sys/net/ipv4/conf/mlan0/forwarding
>> echo 1 >/proc/sys/net/ipv4/conf/mlan0/proxy_arp
>> /usr/sbin/arp -i mlan0 -Ds $main_ip mlan0 pub
>> ipcmd='add'
>> cmdprefix=''
>> ;;
>> remove|offline)
>> do_without_error ifdown ${dev}
>> ipcmd='del'
>> cmdprefix='do_without_error'
>> ;;
>> esac
>>
>> case "${type_if}" in
>> tap)
>> metric=1
>> ;;
>> vif)
>> metric=2
>> ;;
>> *)
>> fatal "Unrecognised interface type ${type_if}"
>> ;;
>> esac
>>
>> # If we've been given a list of IP addresses, then add routes from dom0 to
>> # the guest using those addresses.
>> for addr in ${ip} ; 

Re: Temporary failure in name resolution error when I try to ping Debian 12 / DomU running on top of the Devuan 5 host os / Dom0

[jeremy ardley]

On 20/11/23 05:54, Mario Marietto wrote:

root@bookworm:~# ifup enX0

root@bookworm:~# ip a

1: lo:  mtu 65536 qdisc noqueue state UNKNOWN 
group default qlen 1000

   link/loopback 00:00:00:00:00:00 brd 00:00:00:00:00:00
   inet 127.0.0.1/8  scope host lo
  valid_lft forever preferred_lft forever
   inet6 ::1/128 scope host noprefixroute
  valid_lft forever preferred_lft forever

2: sit0@NONE:  mtu 1480 qdisc noop state DOWN group default 
qlen 1000

   link/sit 0.0.0.0 brd 0.0.0.0

3: enX0:  mtu 1500 qdisc 
pfifo_fast state UP group default

qlen 1000
   link/ether 00:16:3e:12:34:56 brd ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff
   inet 192.168.1.10/24  brd 192.168.1.255 
scope global enX0

  valid_lft forever preferred_lft forever
   inet6 fe80::216:3eff:fe12:3456/64 scope link
  valid_lft forever preferred_lft forever

root@bookworm:~# ping google.it 
ping: google.it : Temporary failure in name resolution



In the client try the command

dig @8.8.8.8 lists.debian.org mx

This will tell if your network config allows your client to access the 
8.8.8.8 DNS server.


What is the contents of your host /etc/resolv.conf ?

Re: Temporary failure in name resolution error when I try to ping Debian 12 / DomU running on top of the Devuan 5 host os / Dom0

[Mario Marietto]

Errata corrige :

nano debian.cfg :

kernel = '/Dati/xen/kernels/zImage-6.1.61-stb-xen-cbe+'
memory = '768'
name = 'Debian-bookworm'
vcpus = '1'
disk = [ '/Dati/xen/debian.img,,xvda,w' ]
vif = [ 'type=vif,mac=00:16:3e:12:34:56,script=vif-route-*local*' ]
extra = 'console=hvc0 root=/dev/xvda rw init=/sbin/init
xen-fbfront.video=24,1024,768'

On Sun, Nov 19, 2023 at 10:54 PM Mario Marietto 
wrote:

> Hello.
>
> I'm trying to configure Debian 12 / DomU on my (Arm32) Chromebook because
> I want to use the Internet and I want its IP address to be seen from
> "outside" of my LAN.
>
> This is the tutorial that I'm following :
>
>
>
> https://github.com/mobile-virt/u-boot-chromebook-xe303c12/tree/chromebook/xen#starting-a-domu-guest
>
> Given these config files :
>
>
> A) on the host os (Devuan 5)
>
> Linux devuan-bunsen 6.1.61-stb-xen-cbe+ #1 SMP PREEMPT Sat Nov  4 13:46:17
> EDT 2023 armv7l
>
> root@devuan-bunsen:~# ifconfig
>
> lo: flags=73  mtu 65536
>inet 127.0.0.1  netmask 255.0.0.0
>inet6 ::1  prefixlen 128  scopeid 0x10
>loop  txqueuelen 1000  (Local Loopback)
>RX packets 2729  bytes 8279984 (7.8 MiB)
>RX errors 0  dropped 0  overruns 0  frame 0
>TX packets 2729  bytes 8279984 (7.8 MiB)
>TX errors 0  dropped 0 overruns 0  carrier 0  collisions 0
>
> mlan0: flags=4163  mtu 1500
>inet 192.168.1.7  netmask 255.255.255.0  broadcast 192.168.1.255
>inet6 fe80::8839:239b:9b37:cf84  prefixlen 64  scopeid 0x20
>RX packets 19694  bytes 2193230 (2.0 MiB)
>RX errors 0  dropped 0  overruns 0  frame 0
>TX packets 18757  bytes 10464406 (9.9 MiB)
>TX errors 0  dropped 0 overruns 0  carrier 0  collisions 0
>
> vif4.0: flags=4163  mtu 1500
>inet 192.168.1.7  netmask 255.255.255.255  broadcast 192.168.1.255
>ether fe:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff  txqueuelen 1000  (Ethernet)
>RX packets 359  bytes 94924 (92.6 KiB)
>RX errors 0  dropped 0  overruns 0  frame 0
>TX packets 42  bytes 1764 (1.7 KiB)
>TX errors 0  dropped 0 overruns 0  carrier 0  collisions 0
>
> nano debian.cfg :
>
> kernel = '/Dati/xen/kernels/zImage-6.1.61-stb-xen-cbe+'
> memory = '768'
> name = 'Debian-bookworm'
> vcpus = '1'
> disk = [ '/Dati/xen/debian.img,,xvda,w' ]
> vif = [ 'type=vif,mac=00:16:3e:12:34:56,script=vif-route' ]
> extra = 'console=hvc0 root=/dev/xvda rw init=/sbin/init
> xen-fbfront.video=24,1024,768'
>
>
> nano /etc/xen/scripts/vif-route-local :
>
> #!/bin/bash
>
> #
> # ${XEN_SCRIPT_DIR}/vif-route
> #
> # Script for configuring a vif in routed mode.
> #
> # Usage:
> # vif-route (add|remove|online|offline)
> #
> # Environment vars:
> # dev vif interface name (required).
> # XENBUS_PATH path to this device's details in the XenStore (required).
> #
> # Read from the store:
> # ip  list of IP networks for the vif, space-separated (default given
> in
> # this script).
>
> #
>
> dir=$(dirname "$0")
> . "${dir}/vif-common.sh"
> #netdev=$(mlan0)
> main_ip=$(dom0_ip)
> case "${command}" in
> add|online)
> echo $dev
>   echo $ip
> echo $main_ip
> ifconfig ${dev} ${main_ip} netmask 255.255.255.255 up
> echo 1 >/proc/sys/net/ipv4/conf/${dev}/proxy_arp
> echo 1 >/proc/sys/net/ipv4/conf/${dev}/forwarding
> echo 1 >/proc/sys/net/ipv4/conf/mlan0/forwarding
> echo 1 >/proc/sys/net/ipv4/conf/mlan0/proxy_arp
> /usr/sbin/arp -i mlan0 -Ds $main_ip mlan0 pub
> ipcmd='add'
> cmdprefix=''
> ;;
> remove|offline)
> do_without_error ifdown ${dev}
> ipcmd='del'
> cmdprefix='do_without_error'
> ;;
> esac
>
> case "${type_if}" in
> tap)
> metric=1
> ;;
> vif)
> metric=2
> ;;
> *)
> fatal "Unrecognised interface type ${type_if}"
> ;;
> esac
>
> # If we've been given a list of IP addresses, then add routes from dom0 to
> # the guest using those addresses.
> for addr in ${ip} ; do
> ${cmdprefix} ip route ${ipcmd} ${addr} dev ${dev} src ${main_ip}
> metric ${metric}
> done
>
> handle_iptable
>
> call_hooks vif post
>
> log debug "Successful vif-route ${command} for ${dev}."
> if [ "${command}" = "online" ]
> then
> success
> fi
>
>
> B) on the guest os (Debian 12)
>
>
> /etc/network/interfaces :
>
> source /etc/network/interfaces.d/*
> iface enX0 inet static
> address 192.168.1.10/24
> gateway 192.168.1.7
>
> /etc/resolv.conf :
>
> options edns0 trust-ad
> search homenet.telecomitalia.it
> nameserver 8.8.8.8
>
>
> this is what happens within the guest os (Debian 12) :
>
>
> root@bookworm:~# ifup enX0
>
> root@bookworm:~# ip a
>
> 1: lo:  mtu 65536 qdisc noqueue state UNKNOWN group
> default qlen 1000
>link/loopback 00:00:00:00:00:00 brd 00:00:00:00:00:00
>inet 127.0.0.1/8 scope host lo
>   valid_lft forever preferred_lft forever
>inet6 ::1/128 

Temporary failure in name resolution error when I try to ping Debian 12 / DomU running on top of the Devuan 5 host os / Dom0

[Mario Marietto]

Hello.

I'm trying to configure Debian 12 / DomU on my (Arm32) Chromebook because I
want to use the Internet and I want its IP address to be seen from
"outside" of my LAN.

This is the tutorial that I'm following :


https://github.com/mobile-virt/u-boot-chromebook-xe303c12/tree/chromebook/xen#starting-a-domu-guest

Given these config files :


A) on the host os (Devuan 5)

Linux devuan-bunsen 6.1.61-stb-xen-cbe+ #1 SMP PREEMPT Sat Nov  4 13:46:17
EDT 2023 armv7l

root@devuan-bunsen:~# ifconfig

lo: flags=73  mtu 65536
   inet 127.0.0.1  netmask 255.0.0.0
   inet6 ::1  prefixlen 128  scopeid 0x10
   loop  txqueuelen 1000  (Local Loopback)
   RX packets 2729  bytes 8279984 (7.8 MiB)
   RX errors 0  dropped 0  overruns 0  frame 0
   TX packets 2729  bytes 8279984 (7.8 MiB)
   TX errors 0  dropped 0 overruns 0  carrier 0  collisions 0

mlan0: flags=4163  mtu 1500
   inet 192.168.1.7  netmask 255.255.255.0  broadcast 192.168.1.255
   inet6 fe80::8839:239b:9b37:cf84  prefixlen 64  scopeid 0x20
   RX packets 19694  bytes 2193230 (2.0 MiB)
   RX errors 0  dropped 0  overruns 0  frame 0
   TX packets 18757  bytes 10464406 (9.9 MiB)
   TX errors 0  dropped 0 overruns 0  carrier 0  collisions 0

vif4.0: flags=4163  mtu 1500
   inet 192.168.1.7  netmask 255.255.255.255  broadcast 192.168.1.255
   ether fe:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff  txqueuelen 1000  (Ethernet)
   RX packets 359  bytes 94924 (92.6 KiB)
   RX errors 0  dropped 0  overruns 0  frame 0
   TX packets 42  bytes 1764 (1.7 KiB)
   TX errors 0  dropped 0 overruns 0  carrier 0  collisions 0

nano debian.cfg :

kernel = '/Dati/xen/kernels/zImage-6.1.61-stb-xen-cbe+'
memory = '768'
name = 'Debian-bookworm'
vcpus = '1'
disk = [ '/Dati/xen/debian.img,,xvda,w' ]
vif = [ 'type=vif,mac=00:16:3e:12:34:56,script=vif-route' ]
extra = 'console=hvc0 root=/dev/xvda rw init=/sbin/init
xen-fbfront.video=24,1024,768'


nano /etc/xen/scripts/vif-route-local :

#!/bin/bash
#
# ${XEN_SCRIPT_DIR}/vif-route
#
# Script for configuring a vif in routed mode.
#
# Usage:
# vif-route (add|remove|online|offline)
#
# Environment vars:
# dev vif interface name (required).
# XENBUS_PATH path to this device's details in the XenStore (required).
#
# Read from the store:
# ip  list of IP networks for the vif, space-separated (default given in
# this script).
#

dir=$(dirname "$0")
. "${dir}/vif-common.sh"
#netdev=$(mlan0)
main_ip=$(dom0_ip)
case "${command}" in
add|online)
echo $dev
  echo $ip
echo $main_ip
ifconfig ${dev} ${main_ip} netmask 255.255.255.255 up
echo 1 >/proc/sys/net/ipv4/conf/${dev}/proxy_arp
echo 1 >/proc/sys/net/ipv4/conf/${dev}/forwarding
echo 1 >/proc/sys/net/ipv4/conf/mlan0/forwarding
echo 1 >/proc/sys/net/ipv4/conf/mlan0/proxy_arp
/usr/sbin/arp -i mlan0 -Ds $main_ip mlan0 pub
ipcmd='add'
cmdprefix=''
;;
remove|offline)
do_without_error ifdown ${dev}
ipcmd='del'
cmdprefix='do_without_error'
;;
esac

case "${type_if}" in
tap)
metric=1
;;
vif)
metric=2
;;
*)
fatal "Unrecognised interface type ${type_if}"
;;
esac

# If we've been given a list of IP addresses, then add routes from dom0 to
# the guest using those addresses.
for addr in ${ip} ; do
${cmdprefix} ip route ${ipcmd} ${addr} dev ${dev} src ${main_ip} metric
${metric}
done

handle_iptable

call_hooks vif post

log debug "Successful vif-route ${command} for ${dev}."
if [ "${command}" = "online" ]
then
success
fi


B) on the guest os (Debian 12)


/etc/network/interfaces :

source /etc/network/interfaces.d/*
iface enX0 inet static
address 192.168.1.10/24
gateway 192.168.1.7

/etc/resolv.conf :

options edns0 trust-ad
search homenet.telecomitalia.it
nameserver 8.8.8.8


this is what happens within the guest os (Debian 12) :


root@bookworm:~# ifup enX0

root@bookworm:~# ip a

1: lo:  mtu 65536 qdisc noqueue state UNKNOWN group
default qlen 1000
   link/loopback 00:00:00:00:00:00 brd 00:00:00:00:00:00
   inet 127.0.0.1/8 scope host lo
  valid_lft forever preferred_lft forever
   inet6 ::1/128 scope host noprefixroute
  valid_lft forever preferred_lft forever

2: sit0@NONE:  mtu 1480 qdisc noop state DOWN group default qlen
1000
   link/sit 0.0.0.0 brd 0.0.0.0

3: enX0:  mtu 1500 qdisc
pfifo_fast state UP group default
qlen 1000
   link/ether 00:16:3e:12:34:56 brd ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff
   inet 192.168.1.10/24 brd 192.168.1.255 scope global enX0
  valid_lft forever preferred_lft forever
   inet6 fe80::216:3eff:fe12:3456/64 scope link
  valid_lft forever preferred_lft forever

root@bookworm:~# ping google.it
ping: google.it: Temporary failure in name resolution


Where can be the error ? thanks.

-- 
Mario.

Re: OT: Forwarding and top posting (was: Re: OT: Pedantic, yet wrong)

[Andy Smith]

Hello,

On Thu, Jun 22, 2023 at 04:24:47PM -0700, Manphiz wrote:
> Personally I don't have a strong preference either way, but would like
> to hear more opinions on this.

The complaint about a top-posted forwarded message just because it
had a contextual hint at the top, seemed excessive to me. I would
have done the same as the OP without thinking anything of it.

Cheers,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

OT: Forwarding and top posting (was: Re: OT: Pedantic, yet wrong)

[Manphiz]

David Christensen  writes:

> On 6/22/23 03:28, Ottavio Caruso wrote:
>> Am 21/06/2023 um 15:46 schrieb to...@tuxteam.de:
>
>>> ... top posting ...
>
>> ... When the message is forwarded ("Weitergeleitet", ... you have no
>> other choice than to top post because the forwarded message is not
>> indented. It would make no sense to bottom post because there would
>> be no way to tell the comment apart from the post. ...
>
>
> I use Thunderbird.  When I want to start a new thread based upon an existing
> thread and keep prior content, I click "Reply", copy the content to the
> clipboard, create a new message, paste, and choose Edit -> Rewrap.  This
> produces a new thread with proper indentation of prior content.  Perhaps your
> mail client has a similar capability.
>
>
> HTH,
>
> David

Honest question regarding forwarding and top posting: while I totally
get that bottom posting style works naturally in a conversation thread,
for a forwarded email the situation is slightly different: it may not be
obvious why the recipient is getting a mail starting with a (potentially
long) quoted message.  IMHO in such case top posting with an explanation
on why the sender is forwarding the mail kind of makes sense.

Regarding forwarding in MUA, old school MUAs (like gnus, mu4e) provides
a quote automatically and put the cursor below; however in Thunderbird
it doesn't quote the forwarded message but provide a separate line, and
even if I set posting style to be below original message, it will post
the cursor above the forwarded message anyway, which makes me feel that
this may be a sensible way to handle forwarded message after all.

Personally I don't have a strong preference either way, but would like
to hear more opinions on this.

-- 
Manphiz

Re: Unable to minimize Firefox 91.5.0esr at top of frame

[Anders Andersson]

On Thu, Jan 13, 2022 at 8:08 PM John Boxall  wrote:
>
> After upgrading to the latest Debian 10 (Buster) Firefox ESR (91.5.0esr
> 64bit), I found that I could not minimize the window by right clicking
> on the top of the window frame and selecting "Minimize", whether the
> menu bar was present or not. The menu for selecting minimize was not
> even present. I was able to perform the minimize with the old (78.x)
> release. I recently installed the latest FF release from the Mozilla
> site (version 95.0.2 64bit) and noted the same situation.
>
> Is this expected going forward or is this a bug?

This is probably expected going forward, because if you've used a
modernized website lately you should know that computer users are in a
minority, and that you should only use a touchscreen on a phone to
scroll through your personalized ads. Read more here:
https://blog.mozilla.org/en/mozilla/news/modern-clean-new-firefox-clears-the-way-to-all-you-need-online/

Only nerds and geeks would use advanced features like "Always on top"
etc. I've found a workaround where the menu containing "Minimize" and
other items shows up if you right-click on one of the window edges
*other* than the top: left, right, or bottom (where you would
left-click and drag to change the window size). However, neither of
these are accessible if the window is already maximized.

Re: Unable to minimize Firefox 91.5.0esr at top of frame

[John Boxall]

On 2022-01-13 17:55, Ralph Katz wrote:


1)  Latest Debian stable is 11 (Bullseye).
2)  Latest Firefox ESR is today's security upgrade, 91.5.0esr (64-bit).
3)  On my XFCE desktop, firefox functions exactly as you seek.

Perhaps you have desktop environment or window manager issue?  More 
details about that could be helpful.




1) Debian 10 (Buster)
2) FF ESR 91.5.0esr (64-bit) (released at the same time as the instance 
for Bullseye)
3) Gnome3 with Wayland disabled. I also tried with Wayland enabled and 
no difference.


Perhaps it is a Gnome issue. I'll keep looking.

--
Regards,

John Boxall

Re: Unable to minimize Firefox 91.5.0esr at top of frame

[Ralph Katz]

On 1/13/22 12:07, John Boxall wrote:
After upgrading to the latest Debian 10 (Buster) Firefox ESR (91.5.0esr 
64bit), I found that I could not minimize the window by right clicking 
on the top of the window frame and selecting "Minimize", whether the 
menu bar was present or not. The menu for selecting minimize was not 
even present. I was able to perform the minimize with the old (78.x) 
release. I recently installed the latest FF release from the Mozilla 
site (version 95.0.2 64bit) and noted the same situation.


Is this expected going forward or is this a bug?


1)  Latest Debian stable is 11 (Bullseye).
2)  Latest Firefox ESR is today's security upgrade, 91.5.0esr (64-bit).
3)  On my XFCE desktop, firefox functions exactly as you seek.

Perhaps you have desktop environment or window manager issue?  More 
details about that could be helpful.


Regards,
Ralph

Unable to minimize Firefox 91.5.0esr at top of frame

[John Boxall]

After upgrading to the latest Debian 10 (Buster) Firefox ESR (91.5.0esr 
64bit), I found that I could not minimize the window by right clicking 
on the top of the window frame and selecting "Minimize", whether the 
menu bar was present or not. The menu for selecting minimize was not 
even present. I was able to perform the minimize with the old (78.x) 
release. I recently installed the latest FF release from the Mozilla 
site (version 95.0.2 64bit) and noted the same situation.


Is this expected going forward or is this a bug?
--
Regards,

John Boxall

Re: Why is gvfsd-metadata my top task in top -- is it a problem, and what should I do if it is.

[rhkramer]

On Thursday, February 11, 2021 12:12:45 PM Alexander V. Makartsev wrote:
> On 11.02.2021 20:58, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On my Wheezy system, I've noticed that for the past 2 or 3 days, gvfsd-
> > metadata has been the top running task when I check with top.

> It sure looks like a bug of some sort. "gvfsd-metadata" process in "top"
> on my system (Buster) is always idle:
>  1519   20   0  164688   5832 5284 S   0,0   0,0   0:00.09
> gvfsd-metadata
> Maybe this will help. [1] Sounds reasonable enough to try.
> As for firefox I remember it was quite a resource hog a few years ago,
> but recent enough versions of it consumes so much less memory and CPU.

Thanks!  I'll keep watching, but it seems that simply deleting the gvfsd-
metadata directory also killed the task, and it has not reappeared (so far).

> [1]
> https://iamparv.wordpress.com/2013/04/12/solved-ubuntu-gvfsd-metadata-cpu-h
> igh-usage-100/

Re: Why is gvfsd-metadata my top task in top -- is it a problem, and what should I do if it is.

[Andrew M.A. Cater]

On Thu, Feb 11, 2021 at 10:58:10AM -0500, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:
> On my Wheezy system, I've noticed that for the past 2 or 3 days, gvfsd-
> metadata has been the top running task when I check with top.
> 
> Comments:
> 
>* I've never seen that before (I've never even noticed that I had such as 
> task running (I didn't look for it, but I didn't see it)
> 
>* I did a little googling to see what it is / does, it seems to have 
> something to do (didn't read thoroughly or completely) to do with file 
> access, 
> maybe starting with GNOME based files, but maybe also other files.
> 
>* I'm running Wheezy (Debian 7.n, up-to-date (as of when Wheezy stopped 
> being updated), with KDE (3.n), and I'm not ready to give up the version of 
> kmail there (which does not use Akonadi (sp?).  (I am aware of the Trinity 
> system that continues to support KDE 3.n, and, if I have to give up on 
> Debian, 
> I would install Trinity on this system).
> 

Potentially stop there and take the time to disconnect the machine from the 
Internet. You have NO security support, particularly, and no means of getting
fixes for problems.

Please DON'T run software beyond it's security support. It may mean nothing to
you but if your computer were to be compromised by a well-known security 
problem, who knows what it might be used for - it's certainly no longer under 
your control. Any problems you are experiencing now are almnost certainly 
beyond reasonably instant memory recall as to what they might be and 
certainly beyond fixing.

EOL (End of life) was more or less two years eight months ago: please consider 
upgrading 
to at least Debian 10

All the best,

Andy C.

>* Almost always, when I check top, firefox-esr (sometimes without the esr, 
> iirc) or Web Content are the top two tasks.
> 
>* A few days ago, firefox was running very slow (too many tabs open) so I 
> restarted firefox.  I can't say for sure that gvfsd-metadata started being 
> the 
> top running task after I did that (because I didn't check immediately), but I 
> can say that wasn't the top task before I restarted firefox.
> 
>* Before the restart mentioned above, either Web Content (or firefox-esr) 
> was using 13 GB of space and often hit 100% CPU (on this two core system).
> 
> Firefox is working better since the restart, and I can't say that I notice 
> any 
> real problems at this time, firefox might be a little slower than before the 
> restart.
> 
> I'm looking for comments -- should I be concerned about this?  Should I do 
> anything about it?
> 
> I suspect that stopping gvfsd would be a mistake (well, unless I restarted 
> it).  I do have thoughts about rebooting the system, maybe it is time to 
> clear 
> out some cruft (of whatever sort)?
> 
> Comments?
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Below are the top 6 tasks reported by top:
> 
> 
> rhk@s19:/rhk$ top
> top - 10:40:57 up 67 days, 17:55, 21 users,  load average: 2.26, 2.26, 2.16
> Tasks: 229 total,   1 running, 228 sleeping,   0 stopped,   0 zombie
> %Cpu(s): 69.3 us,  4.4 sy,  0.0 ni, 20.3 id,  5.5 wa,  0.0 hi,  0.5 si,  0.0 
> st
> KiB Mem:  16212908 total,  9300160 used,  6912748 free,   181116 buffers
> KiB Swap: 19529724 total,  4562804 used, 14966920 free,  1698380 cached
> 
>   PID USER  PR  NI  VIRT  RES  SHR S  %CPU %MEMTIME+  COMMAND 
> 
> 22616 rhk   20   0 63984 1152  336 D  74.4  0.0  40734:56 gvfsd-metadata  
> 
> 25018 rhk   20   0 3529m 1.3g 384m S  57.1  8.2   1403:55 Web Content 
> 
> 22467 rhk   20   0 6724m 3.4g 301m S   8.6 21.9 386:23.01 firefox-esr 
> 
>  3018 root  20   0 1187m 603m 204m S   2.3  3.8 736:59.19 Xorg
> 
>  1540 root  20   0 000 S   2.0  0.0 965:44.59 jbd2/sdb12-8
> 
>  3654 rhk   20   0  381m  21m  11m S   1.7  0.1  90:34.37 konsole 
> 
> 
> 

Re: Why is gvfsd-metadata my top task in top -- is it a problem, and what should I do if it is.

[Alexander V. Makartsev]

On 11.02.2021 20:58, rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:

On my Wheezy system, I've noticed that for the past 2 or 3 days, gvfsd-
metadata has been the top running task when I check with top.

Comments:

* I've never seen that before (I've never even noticed that I had such as
task running (I didn't look for it, but I didn't see it)

* I did a little googling to see what it is / does, it seems to have
something to do (didn't read thoroughly or completely) to do with file access,
maybe starting with GNOME based files, but maybe also other files.

* I'm running Wheezy (Debian 7.n, up-to-date (as of when Wheezy stopped
being updated), with KDE (3.n), and I'm not ready to give up the version of
kmail there (which does not use Akonadi (sp?).  (I am aware of the Trinity
system that continues to support KDE 3.n, and, if I have to give up on Debian,
I would install Trinity on this system).

* Almost always, when I check top, firefox-esr (sometimes without the esr,
iirc) or Web Content are the top two tasks.

* A few days ago, firefox was running very slow (too many tabs open) so I
restarted firefox.  I can't say for sure that gvfsd-metadata started being the
top running task after I did that (because I didn't check immediately), but I
can say that wasn't the top task before I restarted firefox.

* Before the restart mentioned above, either Web Content (or firefox-esr)
was using 13 GB of space and often hit 100% CPU (on this two core system).

Firefox is working better since the restart, and I can't say that I notice any
real problems at this time, firefox might be a little slower than before the
restart.

I'm looking for comments -- should I be concerned about this?  Should I do
anything about it?

I suspect that stopping gvfsd would be a mistake (well, unless I restarted
it).  I do have thoughts about rebooting the system, maybe it is time to clear
out some cruft (of whatever sort)?

Comments?

Thanks!

Below are the top 6 tasks reported by top:


rhk@s19:/rhk$ top
top - 10:40:57 up 67 days, 17:55, 21 users,  load average: 2.26, 2.26, 2.16
Tasks: 229 total,   1 running, 228 sleeping,   0 stopped,   0 zombie
%Cpu(s): 69.3 us,  4.4 sy,  0.0 ni, 20.3 id,  5.5 wa,  0.0 hi,  0.5 si,  0.0
st
KiB Mem:  16212908 total,  9300160 used,  6912748 free,   181116 buffers
KiB Swap: 19529724 total,  4562804 used, 14966920 free,  1698380 cached

   PID USER  PR  NI  VIRT  RES  SHR S  %CPU %MEMTIME+  COMMAND
22616 rhk   20   0 63984 1152  336 D  74.4  0.0  40734:56 gvfsd-metadata
25018 rhk   20   0 3529m 1.3g 384m S  57.1  8.2   1403:55 Web Content
22467 rhk   20   0 6724m 3.4g 301m S   8.6 21.9 386:23.01 firefox-esr
  3018 root  20   0 1187m 603m 204m S   2.3  3.8 736:59.19 Xorg
  1540 root  20   0 000 S   2.0  0.0 965:44.59 jbd2/sdb12-8
  3654 rhk   20   0  381m  21m  11m S   1.7  0.1  90:34.37 konsole



It sure looks like a bug of some sort. "gvfsd-metadata" process in "top" 
on my system (Buster) is always idle:
    1519   20   0  164688   5832 5284 S   0,0   0,0   0:00.09 
gvfsd-metadata

Maybe this will help. [1] Sounds reasonable enough to try.
As for firefox I remember it was quite a resource hog a few years ago, 
but recent enough versions of it consumes so much less memory and CPU.



[1] 
https://iamparv.wordpress.com/2013/04/12/solved-ubuntu-gvfsd-metadata-cpu-high-usage-100/


--
With kindest regards, Alexander.

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian - The universal operating system
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://www.debian.org
⠈⠳⣄

Why is gvfsd-metadata my top task in top -- is it a problem, and what should I do if it is.

[rhkramer]

On my Wheezy system, I've noticed that for the past 2 or 3 days, gvfsd-
metadata has been the top running task when I check with top.

Comments:

   * I've never seen that before (I've never even noticed that I had such as 
task running (I didn't look for it, but I didn't see it)

   * I did a little googling to see what it is / does, it seems to have 
something to do (didn't read thoroughly or completely) to do with file access, 
maybe starting with GNOME based files, but maybe also other files.

   * I'm running Wheezy (Debian 7.n, up-to-date (as of when Wheezy stopped 
being updated), with KDE (3.n), and I'm not ready to give up the version of 
kmail there (which does not use Akonadi (sp?).  (I am aware of the Trinity 
system that continues to support KDE 3.n, and, if I have to give up on Debian, 
I would install Trinity on this system).

   * Almost always, when I check top, firefox-esr (sometimes without the esr, 
iirc) or Web Content are the top two tasks.

   * A few days ago, firefox was running very slow (too many tabs open) so I 
restarted firefox.  I can't say for sure that gvfsd-metadata started being the 
top running task after I did that (because I didn't check immediately), but I 
can say that wasn't the top task before I restarted firefox.

   * Before the restart mentioned above, either Web Content (or firefox-esr) 
was using 13 GB of space and often hit 100% CPU (on this two core system).

Firefox is working better since the restart, and I can't say that I notice any 
real problems at this time, firefox might be a little slower than before the 
restart.

I'm looking for comments -- should I be concerned about this?  Should I do 
anything about it?

I suspect that stopping gvfsd would be a mistake (well, unless I restarted 
it).  I do have thoughts about rebooting the system, maybe it is time to clear 
out some cruft (of whatever sort)?

Comments?

Thanks!

Below are the top 6 tasks reported by top:


rhk@s19:/rhk$ top
top - 10:40:57 up 67 days, 17:55, 21 users,  load average: 2.26, 2.26, 2.16
Tasks: 229 total,   1 running, 228 sleeping,   0 stopped,   0 zombie
%Cpu(s): 69.3 us,  4.4 sy,  0.0 ni, 20.3 id,  5.5 wa,  0.0 hi,  0.5 si,  0.0 
st
KiB Mem:  16212908 total,  9300160 used,  6912748 free,   181116 buffers
KiB Swap: 19529724 total,  4562804 used, 14966920 free,  1698380 cached

  PID USER  PR  NI  VIRT  RES  SHR S  %CPU %MEMTIME+  COMMAND   
  
22616 rhk   20   0 63984 1152  336 D  74.4  0.0  40734:56 gvfsd-metadata
  
25018 rhk   20   0 3529m 1.3g 384m S  57.1  8.2   1403:55 Web Content   
  
22467 rhk   20   0 6724m 3.4g 301m S   8.6 21.9 386:23.01 firefox-esr   
  
 3018 root  20   0 1187m 603m 204m S   2.3  3.8 736:59.19 Xorg  
  
 1540 root  20   0 000 S   2.0  0.0 965:44.59 jbd2/sdb12-8  
  
 3654 rhk   20   0  381m  21m  11m S   1.7  0.1  90:34.37 konsole 

Re: Re: OT?: FAT32(/16?) Question: Max. files in top level

[M Edwards]

stop spamung me asshole

Me Maw

Re: Re: OT?: FAT32(/16?) Question: Max. files in top level

[M Edwards]

requesting removal of spyware

Re: Re: OT?: FAT32(/16?) Question: Max. files in top level

[M Edwards]

i would like to request any and all media associated with the following: 
Any and all Parties who contributed to, participated it, and or redistributed 
the following in question;
 any and all media , including but not limited to:
recordings ; audio and or video, text messages, phone calls, pictures, 
contacts, websites, books, lists, notes, gps, gestures, logging, thise who 
installed scrips, spyware ect... And especially those  who issued denial of 
service attacks preventing me from a basic human rite to earn a living ( ie. I 
lost my hair business and ability to warn an income)  I am requesting to 
prosecute all parties BEYOND  the fullest extent of the law , to MURDER.  You 
took my life with your stalking, hacking, terrorizing and all around abuse, so 
I will be seeking to return the favor. It is my full intent for this case to 
implement new laws to protect citizens of  the world , who deserve privacy and 
protection , with the ability to pursue the American Dream without malice from 
unknown sources and unseen forces claiming such tactics are in the name of 
analytics for advertising. And for companies to be held ACCOUNTABLE FOR 
DISTRIBUTING SUCH LICENSES AND OPEN SOURCE . We The people deserve liberty and 
justice for all, And I believe those who have knowledge of such despicable 
practices and DO NOTHING, are just as liable as those who actively participate. 
I have fact checked with local authorities 
and no such warrant exists for wiretaps 
or other spyware to invade my privacy. 

The following participated either directely or  directly by redistributing 
under their license :
To that end I am requesting all personal data from each entity below , 
I am  hereby requesting any and all data to be  destroyed after delivery of 
such data to myself or entities who represent me  including any data archives 
and or listed as Legacy.
I realize most of the following are fictitious  licenses, the entity who they 
are attributed to shall be held accountable for each one either real or 
fictitious. 
The following are here put on notice of such requests:

inlink with pvjson5, 
 lint, reZ - expression library

Android
Model
A501DL
Android Version8.1.0
Android version 8.1.6
Android security patch lev Jan 5, 2019
Baseband Version -
MOLY.LR12A.R3.MP.V30.4.P16
Kernel version
4.4.95 ( gcc version 6.3.1 20170404
(Linaro GCC 6.3-2017.05)
jenkins@jenkins-slave#1
wed Jan 23 19:56 CST 2019
Build number vS4G
Custom build version
alps-mp-o1.mp1-
v1.196_k39tv1.bsp_P14

including Third party licenses
Gooogle Legal
System WebView licenses
Wallpapers
Satellite imagery providers:
2014 CNES/ Astrium, DigitalGlobe, Bluesky AsWell As,

Abseil
Accessibility Audit Library & Develpoer Tools
Alliance for Open Media Video Codec (c)
Iincluding  but not limited to:
all Redistributers including;

Android bionic libc ( Linaro Limited)
Almost Native Graphics Layer Engine
Android Open Source Project
Android SDK
Android Tools ( SDK/NDK)
American Fuzzy Lop
ARCore SDK
AsyncTask
Axe-Core Accessability Audit
BLACKMAGIC  DeckLink SDK Mac
Blink
blink HTMLTokenizer
BoringSSL
Braille Translation Library
Breakpad
Brotli
BSDiff
bsdiff
bspatch
Chrome Custom Tabs
Chrome Vox
Chromium OS system API
Closure compiler
Cocoa extension code from Camino
Compact Encoding Detection
Crashpad
CRC32C
d3
Darwin
David M. Gay's floating point
divsufsort
dom-distiller-js
dynamic annotations
etc1
Expat XML Parser
fdlibm
Feed
filmpeg
Fiat-Crypto
fips181
flac
FlatBuffers
flot Javascript/JQuery library for creating graphs
fontconfig
FreeType
gestures
GifPlayer Animated GIF Library
Google Cache Invalidation API
GifPlayer Cache Invalidation API
Google fork of Khronos referencef font-end for GLSL and ESSL
Google Input Tools for Mac
google-glog's symbolization library
google-jstemplate
GVR Android SDK
GVR Keyboard
harfbuzz-ng
Headless Android Heap Analyzer
HUNSPELL
hunspell dictionaries
IAccessible2 COM INTERFACES FIR ACCESSIBILITY
ICCJPEG
ICU
INSPECTOR PROTOCOL
INTERNATIONAL Phone Number Library
ISinpleDOM COM interfaces for accessibility
jinja2 Python Template Engine
jsoncpp
JSR 305;Annotations for software 
Defect Detection in Java
Khronos header files
LCOV-the LTP GCOY extention
LeakCanery
LevelDB; A Fast Persistent Key-Value Store
libaddressinput
libcxx
libcxx-pretty-printers
libcxxabi
libevdev
libevent
libfreenect2
libfuzzer
libjingle XMPP
libjpeg
libjpeg-turbo
libpng
libprotobuf-mutator
libsecret
libudev
libunwind
libusb
libusbx
libvpx
libxml
libxslt
linux-syscall-support
logilab
LzmaSDK
MACH_ overide
Material Components for ios
Material Design Icons
Material Internalization for IOs
Material RobotoFont Loader ios
Material Sprited Animation View
Material Test Accessibility ios
MediaController Android sample
Mesa_headers
Metrics Protos
minigbm
modp bade64 decider
modp base64 decider
Motion Animator for Objective -C
Modzilla Portable Security Manager
native client
Netscape Pirtable Runtime ( NAPE)
Network Security Services ( NSS)
newlib-extras
nmoinva/minizip

Re: Top-posting (was Re: how to test disk for bad sector)

[Charles Curley]

On Sun, 30 Aug 2020 09:14:16 -0700
Charlie Gibbs  wrote:

> If someone can't be bothered to take the time to write a readable
> message, I can't be bothered to take the time to decipher it.

On the other tentacle, this sort of thing is usually the province of
newbies. I think it would help to refer newbies to some advice. I would
refer them to ESR's How To Ask Questions The Smart Way, but the
catb.org server is not co-operating.

-- 
Does anybody read signatures any more?

https://charlescurley.com
https://charlescurley.com/blog/

Re: Top-posting

[Felix Miata]

Charlie Gibbs composed on 2020-08-30 09:14 (UTC-0700):

> On Sun, 30 Aug 2020 16:30:01 +0200 Charles Curley wrote: 
>> On Sun, 30 Aug 2020 14:02:48 + Andy Smith wrote:

>>> Between your top posting and the HTML mails, I find it very
>>> difficult to read your emails so I mostly haven't bothered.

>> Hear, hear. My sentiments exactly.

>> Yahoo mail is broken. I encourage Mr. Wind to get another mail reader. 

> If someone can't be bothered to take the time to write a readable
> message, I can't be bothered to take the time to decipher it.

> As for Outlook, I've been told that the correct pronunciation is
> "Look out!"

I pronounce it out house.

"Even the magic 8 ball has an opinion on email clients: Outlook not so good"
-- 
Evolution as taught in public schools, like religion,
is based on faith, not on science.

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

Top-posting (was Re: how to test disk for bad sector)

[Charlie Gibbs]

On Sun, 30 Aug 2020 16:30:01 +0200
Charles Curley  wrote:

> On Sun, 30 Aug 2020 14:02:48 +
> Andy Smith  wrote:
>
>> Between your top posting and the HTML mails, I find it very
>> difficult to read your emails so I mostly haven't bothered.
>
> Hear, hear. My sentiments exactly.
>
> Yahoo mail is broken. I encourage Mr. Wind to get another mail reader.

If someone can't be bothered to take the time to write a readable
message, I can't be bothered to take the time to decipher it.

As for Outlook, I've been told that the correct pronunciation is
"Look out!"

--
/~\  Charlie Gibbs  |  Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ /|  Apple is a cult.
 X   I'm really at ac.dekanfrus |  Linux is anarchy.
/ \  if you read it the right way.  |  Pick your poison.

Top Urgent

[Hassan Al Redha]

Hello dear
I have a business to discuss with you please reply to confirm that this is
your email
Regards
Hassan Al Redha

Re: Top 7 Programming Languages That Employers Really Want

[Mark Rousell]

I probably shouldn't prolong this thread but...

Maybe this cartoon will help:
https://blog.toggl.com/save-princess-8-programming-languages/

More seriously, I was recently asked which languages to learn and I
wrote up a list of what I thought was important. See below.

On 18/10/2019 03:33, Turritopsis Dohrnii Teo En Ming wrote:
> This is just a quick survey. May I know what programming languages do
> you know? I am considering being a programmer or developer.
> How long will it take for me to master a programming language like
> C++, Java, and Python?

I'm not a professional programmer but programming is part of my job. I
mostly find myself using using C#, Javascript, Typescript, VBScript, and
PHP. I expect to soon need to know some Powershell, Python, and possibly
Kotlin (or Java). I also like the look of Rust but it's a big learning
curve. But all that is just me.

Anyway, below is the list that I mentioned.

Current Mainstream Languages. (Know a few of them well. Which ones
depends on your likely employer, your actual or like projects, and your
preferences). Listed in no particular order.

  * JavaScript
  * TypeScript (transcompiles to JavaScript, increasingly popular)
  * C
  * C++
  * C#
  * Python
  * PHP
  * Rust
  * Go
  * PowerShell
  * Bash (and Linux/Unix shell)
  * Java
  * Kotlin
  * Perl
  * Visual Basic  (VB.NET)
  * SQL  (Oracle PL/SQL, Microsoft T-SQL, MySQL)
  * HTML (not a programming language but important to have some familiarity)
  * CSS (not a programming language but important to some familiarity)


Current Less Popular Languages. (Be aware of them, some awareness of
them. Some are increasing in popularity, some are reducing in
popularity). Listed in no particular order.

  * Swift (very important if coding for iOS)
  * D (very sadly losing out to Rust, I think)
  * Ruby
  * Pascal  (Delphi, Object Pascal, Free Pascal)
  * Objective-C  (being replaced by Swift)
  * R
  * Haskell
  * Lua (embeddable scripting language)
  * VBScript
  * Visual Basic  (VB6)
  * F#
  * Julia
  * Dart  (JavaScript competitor from Apple, will be used in Fuschia)
  * CoffeeScript  (transcompiles to JavaScript, being replaced in
practice by Typescript)


Others, Historical, Niche. (To have at least looked at very, very
briefly so as to be aware of their existence, look and focus). Listed in
no particular order.

  * PL/I
  * RPG  (IBM AS/400, IBM i)
  * Ada  (military, aerospace)
  * Fortran
  * Cobol
  * Oxygene  (Object Pascal-like for .NET, iOS, Android, Java, macOS)
  * Eiffel
  * Clojure (Lisp)
  * ML
  * Vala
  * Nim   
  * Nemerle  (a .NET language)
  * Erlang
  * BBC Basic
  * Scala
  * Ring
  * Clarion  (4GL)
  * Elm
  * REXX
  * Coldfusion CFML
  * ActionScript
  * Algol
  * MS-DOS/CMD Batch
  * TCL
  * AWK  (see also Sed)
  * Forth
  * Haxe
  * Matlab
  * Boo  (a .NET language)
  * Microsoft QBasic  (and similar)
  * Prolog   



-- 
Mark Rousell
 
 
 

Re: Top 7 Programming Languages That Employers Really Want

[deloptes]

Dan Ritter wrote:

> deloptes wrote:
>> SQL, Python, PERL, C/C++, JAVA. I wonder why I did not see PHP ... but
>> well.
> 
> For about a decade, PHP was the province of people who copied
> scripts from Matt's Script Archive and didn't know what security
> holes they were creating.
> 
> Sometime in the last five years or so, the PHP community has
> matured and made it a respectable language for web applications.

I don't know. There are a lot of things written in PHP.
Also UML seems very reasonable to me + CMake, YAML, XML... can be viewed as
supportive but the same is also SQL. Compiler, Debugger are also important
at least for the binary. 

Re: Top 7 Programming Languages That Employers Really Want

[Dan Ritter]

deloptes wrote: 
> SQL, Python, PERL, C/C++, JAVA. I wonder why I did not see PHP ... but well.

For about a decade, PHP was the province of people who copied
scripts from Matt's Script Archive and didn't know what security
holes they were creating.

Sometime in the last five years or so, the PHP community has
matured and made it a respectable language for web applications.

-dsr-

Re: Top 7 Programming Languages That Employers Really Want

[Dan Ritter]

John Hasler wrote: 
> Joe writes:
> > Spend an hour or two with the job advertisements (which is what the OP
> > needs to do) to see the enormous range of what employers *think* they
> > want, and this is what the young ladies in HR will definitely require
> > of an applicant.
> 
> Especially amusing are the ads that demand five years experience
> something invented four years ago.

My college roommate spent a summer doing an internship at Sun
Microsystems, helping write the manual for a new language they
were releasing.

So, when recruiters were asking for five years of Java
experience three years later, he was one of very few people not
employed at Sun who could reasonably claim that.

Years are a terrible way to judge experience. So are most other
ways, though.

-dsr-

Re: Top 7 Programming Languages That Employers Really Want

[Thomas D Dial]

On Sat, 2019-10-19 at 09:46 -0500, John Hasler wrote:
> deloptes writes:
> > SQL comes everywhere handy...
> 
> SQL is certainly handy, but I don't consider it a programming language
> (likewise HTML).

About 20 years ago I wrote and tested a match-merge update program with
(as I remember) the then current version of Oracle SQL. It ran to about
a screen full of text, but depended on all input validatation having
been done and no data item transformations during execution. Couldn't
persuade the users to take it on, though, as they were committed to
using C.

> 
> If you *do* consider HTML a programming language the crawling horrors
> that most Web sites send out make the worst BASIC spaghetti balls look
> like something out of IBM Federal Systems.

Tom Dial

Re: Top 7 Programming Languages That Employers Really Want

[mick crane]

On 2019-10-19 08:11, Thomas Schmitt wrote:




Have a nice day :)



cheers
mick

--
Key ID4BFEBB31

Re: Top 7 Programming Languages That Employers Really Want

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 19 October 2019 08:38:15 John Hasler wrote:

> Joe quotes:
> > "If you think you need to use floating point, you don't fully
> > understand your application."
>
> Right.  There isn't anything you can't do with bignum.
>
> I wrote software for control systems using cpus such as the RCA 1802.
> You can do a lot more with 8 bit integers than seems possible at first
> thought.
>
I'll back that up. The first "had a job to do" program I ever wrote, in 
1978, was for a video production helper, laying a new digital academy 
leader on a finished commercial, intended to function with an automatic 
station break machine.  This was at KRCR in Redding CA.

I used a cosmac super Elf, buying its case and an s-100 backplane, built 
the video board and added a then $400 for the kit 4kx8 static memory 
board to the cosmacs 256 bytes and the interface to a Sony 2850 3/4" 
u-matic tape machine it was controlling.

I went on down the road looking for greener pastures after their long 
time chief came back to work from the heart attack he had 2 weeks after 
I was hired. I had no more contact with the station until '94 when I'd 
taken 2 weeks to visit an aunt in Salem OR who was fading. Calling to 
catch up, I found that in 94, 14 years later, my program was still in 
use many times a day.  In a television stations control room, thats 
amazing, because while the technology used to play that commercial is 
constantly changing, the need to do that job accurately hadn't.

And after scareing Microtime out of their shorts when I found the bare 
beginnings of such at their booth at the annual NBA shindig in Vegas the 
following year, and mentioning to the bow tie in the booth that I had 
already done that, only better, it had dissappeared an hour later and 
was never admitted to exist ever again.  And no one else has ever 
attempted to do it unless they did their own version in house and kept 
it quiet. 

> You can also get by without a multiplier.

I don't recall I needed to do any muls or divs, but did do some bit 
twiddling. My version of the time code was actually better than drop 
frame for tracking wall time. Not that it mattered over the maximum of 2 
minutes and 10 second duration of laying down that new leader and the 
audio tones on one track of the audio that tied the tape to the station 
break machine. But I figured if a had to do it, do it right. :) FWIW, I 
still have 2 audio carts filled with backups of that program and a type 
written printout of its program on the top shelf of the bookcases on the 
walls of this room. My man cave. Memories of times past...

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

Re: Top 7 Programming Languages That Employers Really Want

[Joe]

On Sat, 19 Oct 2019 15:34:06 +0200
deloptes  wrote:

> Joe wrote:
> 
> > And it's not so much fundamental languages as the buzzwords, the
> > frameworks, 'agile' programming, AJAX, and things like proprietary
> > CMS (C for both content and customer) systems. Nobody ever asks for
> > basic programming skills.  
> 
> You are sooo right, but one must understand the language first, to be
> able to use the framework. I bet it is getting extremely difficult
> for newcomers to understand all that stuff and a good guidance is
> extremely valuable.

Indeed. I'm sort-of learning Laravel at the moment. If you're reasonably
competent in PHP and HTML, there's still a steep learning curve. It does
a lot of stuff, but you have to work *its* way e.g. every application
requires a separate virtual server, domain name and therefore DNS (or
multiple /etc/hosts) entry. You can't just drop a directory of stuff
into /www/docroot (as I usually do) and expect it to work.
> 
> IMO the future is in automated frameworks that turn a/the concept
> into code. For example I used swagger (https://swagger.io/) or symfony
> (https://symfony.com/) - of course you have to know the language
> (java or php) - but it is all about the time you need to turn the
> idea into code.
>

Nothing new under the sun:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Last_One_(software)

-- 
Joe

Re: Top 7 Programming Languages That Employers Really Want

[John Hasler]

Thomas D Dial writes:
> FORTRAN is somewhat similar, but has a smaller, more stable, and mors
> specialized application space and often, I think, is maintained by the
> successors of the program users who wrote it originally. A good deal
> of it may, by now, have been replaced by C, C++, Python, or some other
> newer language.

There are highly optimized and thoroughly debugged scientific and
engineering libraries written decades ago in FORTRAN.  These are often
used in programs written in much newer languages.  It's hard to justify
porting them because they work so well as-is.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: Top 7 Programming Languages That Employers Really Want

[Thomas D Dial]

On Sat, 2019-10-19 at 09:48 +0200, deloptes wrote:
> James H. H. Lampert wrote:
> 
> > The OP wanted this treated as a survey, and so . . .
> > 
> > Many dialects and derivatives of BASIC, including (but not limited
> > to)
> > IBM VS-BASIC (ran on 370 and compatible mainframes), TRS-80 Level 1,
> > Level 2, and Mod I Disk BASIC, GWBASIC, and the various QBASICs
> > (QuickBASIC and QBX). (I took one look at VisualBASIC, and swore off
> > any
> > further M$ development tools.)
> > 
> > FORTRAN (mainly FORTRAN IV: IBM G1, WATFIV, and TRS-80 FORTRAN).
> > 
> > Pascal (CDC Cyber Pascal).
> > 
> > COBOL (also on a CDC Cyber).
> > 
> > PL/I (CDC Cyber PL/I; CDC ANSI PL/I; IBM AS/400 PL/I).
> > 
> > Assemblers (DEC Macro-11, 8086).
> > 
> > (LISP)   <-- the parentheses are an inside joke.
> > 
> > C (mainly on AS/400s). I must go down to the 'C' again, to the loony
> > 'C,' and cry.
> > 
> > Modula-2
> > 
> > MI (it's the closest you are allowed to get to a true assembler
> > language
> > on an AS/400)
> > 
> > RPG/400 (both OPM and ILE)
> > 
> > CL (on AS/400s; it's like a shell script, only compiled).
> > 
> > Java
> > 
> > I've forgotten just about all the SmallTalk I ever learned.
> > 
> > I can get by in SQL.
> > 
> > The more programming languages you know, the easier it is to pick up
> > additional programming languages. And the less likely you are to
> > treat
> > your favorite language (or the only one you know) as a panacea. And
> > if
> > you have good linkage capabilities, mixed-language work is not
> > difficult
> > at all.
> > 
> > Not much that's on the published list. But then again, when I leave
> > my
> > present employment, I'm probably never going to write a single line
> > of
> > code professionally again.
> > 
> > --
> > JHHL
> 
> But James ... this is like a walk through the museum. Are these indeed
> languages that "Employers Really Want"?

There is a lot of existing code written in SQL, Java, COBOL, C (and
C++), FORTRAN, and I expect by now Python. That code needs or will need
occasional maintenance or even further development.

COBOL, in particular, is well established in some large and important
core business systems, especially in financial organizations; a
programmer with decent skills in COBOL, along with the applicable host
OS (mostly z/OS) and development tools and facilities is used is likely
to be able to earn a decent living for some time to come. It may be a
language in decline, but it is likely to take quite a while.

FORTRAN is somewhat similar, but has a smaller, more stable, and mors
specialized application space and often, I think, is maintained by the
successors of the program users who wrote it originally. A good deal of
it may, by now, have been replaced by C, C++, Python, or some other
newer language. I have been retired for a few years, but wonder if
development and maintenance by end user technical subject specialists is
not common with Python as well.

I suspect most of the others listed here are niche languages by now that
might offer occasional employment but more likely would occur
occasionally and be handled as an additional duty by programmers who
primarily uses other languages.

Various on-line quasi-technical publications present lists from time to
time that suggest a number of other languages that may be in demand. A
few that come readily to mind are Javascript, R, and Go, but there are
others.

Tom Dial

Re: Top 7 Programming Languages That Employers Really Want

[John Hasler]

deloptes writes:
> SQL comes everywhere handy...

SQL is certainly handy, but I don't consider it a programming language
(likewise HTML).

If you *do* consider HTML a programming language the crawling horrors
that most Web sites send out make the worst BASIC spaghetti balls look
like something out of IBM Federal Systems.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: Top 7 Programming Languages That Employers Really Want

[Richard Owlett]

On 10/19/2019 08:26 AM, deloptes wrote:

[SNIP]
SQL comes
everywhere handy, because you have to store the data somewhere - but still
there is difference between Oracle, MySQL/MariaDB or sqlite. Each one has
its advantages and disadvantages - and SQL for the one is likely not
compatible with SQL for the other, though SQL is well standardized - the
implementations are different.


I used either dBase II or III about 30 years ago but have not used any 
database since. SeaMonkey stores bookmarks {and other stuff} in SQLite3 
database files. My bookmarks are now massive and poorly organized. I 
have a mental image of how they could be organized in dBase.


Any reading suggestions on appropriate tools?
[I've other personal projects that would benefit from a database tool.]
I would like to read the existing data, edit it, and then print it out 
in a format that visually resembles a detailed "table of contents" with 
sub-headings more than 4 levels deep. When using SeaMonkey's export to 
HTML the resulting file is more than 6500 lines.


A nice extra would be the possibility of outputting in a format 
acceptable to SeaMonkey

Re: Top 7 Programming Languages That Employers Really Want

[deloptes]

Joe wrote:

> And it's not so much fundamental languages as the buzzwords, the
> frameworks, 'agile' programming, AJAX, and things like proprietary CMS
> (C for both content and customer) systems. Nobody ever asks for basic
> programming skills.

You are sooo right, but one must understand the language first, to be able
to use the framework. I bet it is getting extremely difficult for newcomers
to understand all that stuff and a good guidance is extremely valuable.

IMO the future is in automated frameworks that turn a/the concept into code.
For example I used swagger (https://swagger.io/) or symfony
(https://symfony.com/) - of course you have to know the language (java or
php) - but it is all about the time you need to turn the idea into code.

regards

Re: Top 7 Programming Languages That Employers Really Want

[deloptes]

Joe wrote:

> Seriously? BASIC worse than Hollerith strings? It was 45 years ago, but
> I still remember...

Indeed - I have the feeling here only people from the home for the elderly 
(Seniorenheim) are posting - BASIC, COBOL, PASCAL ... OMG

Though I must admit there were some good posts around - but the majority
must be 50 or 60+, who gave up evolution 20-30y ago.

The study was pretty good

SQL, Python, PERL, C/C++, JAVA. I wonder why I did not see PHP ... but well.

IMO you use one language for rapid prototyping and if necessary (for example
commercialize it), you use one of the binary languages. SQL comes
everywhere handy, because you have to store the data somewhere - but still
there is difference between Oracle, MySQL/MariaDB or sqlite. Each one has
its advantages and disadvantages - and SQL for the one is likely not
compatible with SQL for the other, though SQL is well standardized - the
implementations are different.

regards

Re: Top 7 Programming Languages That Employers Really Want

[John Hasler]

Joe quotes:
> "If you think you need to use floating point, you don't fully
> understand your application."

Right.  There isn't anything you can't do with bignum.

I wrote software for control systems using cpus such as the RCA 1802.
You can do a lot more with 8 bit integers than seems possible at first
thought.

You can also get by without a multiplier.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: Top 7 Programming Languages That Employers Really Want

[John Hasler]

Joe writes:
> Spend an hour or two with the job advertisements (which is what the OP
> needs to do) to see the enormous range of what employers *think* they
> want, and this is what the young ladies in HR will definitely require
> of an applicant.

Especially amusing are the ads that demand five years experience
something invented four years ago.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: Top 7 Programming Languages That Employers Really Want

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

Joe wrote:
> "If you think you need to use floating point, you don't fully
> understand your application."

+0.9


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: Top 7 Programming Languages That Employers Really Want

[Joe]

On Sat, 19 Oct 2019 11:09:06 +0200
"Thomas Schmitt"  wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> John Hasler wrote:
> > > FORTRAN on 1620s and 370s,  
> 
> Joe wrote:
> > Seriously? BASIC worse than Hollerith strings?  
> 
> 212H Of course you don't do string processing in FORTRAN. It's for
> problems which you can solve by representing everything as
> homogeneous coordinates and then computing the result by one giant
> matrix multiplication.
> 

And, of course, there's the other extreme:

"If you think you need to use floating point, you don't fully
understand your application."

Maybe not exactly word for word, I think it's from one of Leo Brodie's
books on early Forth. Might be a quotation from Charles Moore.

-- 
Joe

Re: Top 7 Programming Languages That Employers Really Want

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

John Hasler wrote:
> > FORTRAN on 1620s and 370s,

Joe wrote:
> Seriously? BASIC worse than Hollerith strings?

212H Of course you don't do string processing in FORTRAN. It's for problems
which you can solve by representing everything as homogeneous coordinates
and then computing the result by one giant matrix multiplication.

(wc helps a lot to construct proper hollerith constants.
 To be typical all characters would have to be capital letters or digits
 encoded in EBCDIC.)


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: Top 7 Programming Languages That Employers Really Want

[Joe]

On Fri, 18 Oct 2019 17:34:57 -0500
John Hasler  wrote:


> I guess some people who started with BASIC do eventually recover.
> 

And then you say:

> FORTRAN on 1620s and 370s, 

Seriously? BASIC worse than Hollerith strings? It was 45 years ago, but
I still remember...

-- 
Joe

Re: Top 7 Programming Languages That Employers Really Want

[Joe]

On Fri, 18 Oct 2019 22:50:29 +0100
Brian  wrote:


> 
>  > Top 7 Programming Languages That Employers Really Want  
> 
> Nobody has answered the question yet.
> 

Because there isn't an answer. 

Spend an hour or two with the job advertisements (which is what the OP
needs to do) to see the enormous range of what employers *think* they
want, and this is what the young ladies in HR will definitely require of
an applicant.

And it's not so much fundamental languages as the buzzwords, the
frameworks, 'agile' programming, AJAX, and things like proprietary CMS
(C for both content and customer) systems. Nobody ever asks for basic
programming skills. Here's a fragment of an advertisement in my country
picked at random:

"Knowledge of the following skills is important for this role:

.NET
C#
MVC
SQL
SharePoint (Advantageous but not essential)

The role will be based in Central London. Depending upon your
experience and skills, the salary for this role is up to £50K."

I've never been near .NET or C# (the latter written by the main Delphi
developer). I look at this kind of thing now and again, just out of
curiosity, and I don't think I've ever seen a job where I tick all the
boxes, even at hobby level.

-- 
Joe

Re: Top 7 Programming Languages That Employers Really Want

[deloptes]

Brian wrote:

> You, and everybody else, may as well have skipped the whole post and
> saved the List from wasting bandwidth. I ask you
> 
> > This is just a quick survey.
> 
> Really?
> 
> > I am considering being a programmer
> 
> Wowee.
> 
> > Turritopsis Dohrnii
> 
> Jellyfish. Hard to grasp.
> 
> >  How long will it take
> 
> Where's that piece of string?
> 
> > Top 7 Programming Languages That Employers Really Want
> 
> Nobody has answered the question yet.

It was in the survey - this whole thread was teaser to go and read the
survey.

Re: Top 7 Programming Languages That Employers Really Want

[deloptes]

James H. H. Lampert wrote:

> The OP wanted this treated as a survey, and so . . .
> 
> Many dialects and derivatives of BASIC, including (but not limited to)
> IBM VS-BASIC (ran on 370 and compatible mainframes), TRS-80 Level 1,
> Level 2, and Mod I Disk BASIC, GWBASIC, and the various QBASICs
> (QuickBASIC and QBX). (I took one look at VisualBASIC, and swore off any
> further M$ development tools.)
> 
> FORTRAN (mainly FORTRAN IV: IBM G1, WATFIV, and TRS-80 FORTRAN).
> 
> Pascal (CDC Cyber Pascal).
> 
> COBOL (also on a CDC Cyber).
> 
> PL/I (CDC Cyber PL/I; CDC ANSI PL/I; IBM AS/400 PL/I).
> 
> Assemblers (DEC Macro-11, 8086).
> 
> (LISP)   <-- the parentheses are an inside joke.
> 
> C (mainly on AS/400s). I must go down to the 'C' again, to the loony
> 'C,' and cry.
> 
> Modula-2
> 
> MI (it's the closest you are allowed to get to a true assembler language
> on an AS/400)
> 
> RPG/400 (both OPM and ILE)
> 
> CL (on AS/400s; it's like a shell script, only compiled).
> 
> Java
> 
> I've forgotten just about all the SmallTalk I ever learned.
> 
> I can get by in SQL.
> 
> The more programming languages you know, the easier it is to pick up
> additional programming languages. And the less likely you are to treat
> your favorite language (or the only one you know) as a panacea. And if
> you have good linkage capabilities, mixed-language work is not difficult
> at all.
> 
> Not much that's on the published list. But then again, when I leave my
> present employment, I'm probably never going to write a single line of
> code professionally again.
> 
> --
> JHHL

But James ... this is like a walk through the museum. Are these indeed
languages that "Employers Really Want"?

Re: Top 7 Programming Languages That Employers Really Want

[deloptes]

rhkra...@gmail.com wrote:

> Never did much Perl, but I think anything (well, not sure about obfuscated
> C) is more readable than APL.

I am not sure if it makes sense to compare a modern car engine with one
constructed 150y ago.

Re: Top 7 Programming Languages That Employers Really Want

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

i wrote:
> > The overall design paradigm is object oriented but without fancy stuff
> > like overloading or inheritance. Encapsulation and aggregation must
> > suffice.

mick crane wrote:
> This is interesting topic for me but don't know what these words
> "overloading or inheritance. Encapsulation and aggregation"
> mean in programming context

Object orientation is a design pattern for programming. Invented already
in the 1950s, it long time carved a miserable existence in
let-the-machine-burst languages like Simula or Smalltalk. In the late
1980s it became the modern way of programming. To my knowlege, no other
design pattern has yet really taken over that role.

Pillars of OO are: Aggregation, Encapsulation, Inheritance, Polymorphism.

Aggregation, already known in Structured Programming, consolidates a set
of variables in a single container structure. This reduces the number of
variables which you have to pass to called functions and helps to keep
an overview what belongs where.

Encapsulation hides the entrails of program parts from most other program
parts so that only a well defined set of functions (aka "methods") is
visible to the others and has to be kept stable for them. This gives the
programmer more freedom to improve parts of the program without damaging
other, unrelated parts.

By these two gestures, "classes" and their "object instances" get defined.
A class is a set of variable definitions and a set of methods which can
operate on the variables. An object instance is a set of variable storage
with individual values. It is subject to manipulation by the methods.
A common analogy in biology is "species" and "individuum".
(That's why the university where i studied offered Simula as language for
 biologists. You should have heard their comments after the first lecture
 which was held in our math faculty's rooms.)

Inheritance strives for re-use of well working and tested program parts
by declaring that a new class is like one or more existing classes with
maybe some extra features and maybe some modifications of the existing
features. The inheriting class only has the code that is missing in the
bequesting classes, which contribute most of the code implementation.
So here the programmer knocks over the clarity, which was gained
by encapsulation and aggregation, by inventing nearly-but-not-really-same
things and scattering their program code over larger parts of the program.

Polymorphism (aka overloading) gives nearly identically looking program
gestures different meanings. Classic is the overloading of the "+"
operator for everything that a drunk mathematician would accept as some
kind of addition. Plus string concatentation and maybe marriage of bits.

If you fail to make your program unreadable by inheritance, try
overloading. This will surely do the trick.

A more substantial overview with a more polite opinion towards C++ et.al.
can be found at
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object-oriented_programming
(Note the link box "Programming paradigms" to the right. There you find
 naivity, madness, and deep wisdom.)


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: Top 7 Programming Languages That Employers Really Want

[Ben Caradoc-Davies]

On 18/10/2019 15:33, Turritopsis Dohrnii Teo En Ming wrote:

This is just a quick survey. May I know what programming languages do
you know? I am considering being a programmer or developer.
How long will it take for me to master a programming language like
C++, Java, and Python?


Mastery is a high level goal. Are you trying to learn enough to secure 
employment in an entry-level position?


Python is easiest to learn and widely used, but not commonly used in 
packaged products. Java is the most widely used, and designed as a more 
portable and easier to learn alternative to C++, which is also widely 
used. C++ is by far the hardest.


Do you have a particular industry in mind? The choice of language will 
follow the domain.


Software development is about much more than just programming: teamwork, 
engineering practices, and personal technical and business 
problem-solving ability. What is your background?


A great way to learn is to choose an open source project that uses a 
language of interest to you and contribute bug fixes to it. Proven 
ability on open source projects is a great way of building your resume.


Kind regards,

--
Ben Caradoc-Davies 
Director
Transient Software Limited 
New Zealand

Re: Top 7 Programming Languages That Employers Really Want

[rhkramer]

On Friday, October 18, 2019 06:33:19 PM Jeremy Nicoll wrote:
> Perl is a whole lot more readable than APL.

Never did much Perl, but I think anything (well, not sure about obfuscated C) 
is more readable than APL.

Re: Top 7 Programming Languages That Employers Really Want

[James H. H. Lampert]

The OP wanted this treated as a survey, and so . . .

Many dialects and derivatives of BASIC, including (but not limited to) 
IBM VS-BASIC (ran on 370 and compatible mainframes), TRS-80 Level 1, 
Level 2, and Mod I Disk BASIC, GWBASIC, and the various QBASICs 
(QuickBASIC and QBX). (I took one look at VisualBASIC, and swore off any 
further M$ development tools.)


FORTRAN (mainly FORTRAN IV: IBM G1, WATFIV, and TRS-80 FORTRAN).

Pascal (CDC Cyber Pascal).

COBOL (also on a CDC Cyber).

PL/I (CDC Cyber PL/I; CDC ANSI PL/I; IBM AS/400 PL/I).

Assemblers (DEC Macro-11, 8086).

(LISP)   <-- the parentheses are an inside joke.

C (mainly on AS/400s). I must go down to the 'C' again, to the loony 
'C,' and cry.


Modula-2

MI (it's the closest you are allowed to get to a true assembler language 
on an AS/400)


RPG/400 (both OPM and ILE)

CL (on AS/400s; it's like a shell script, only compiled).

Java

I've forgotten just about all the SmallTalk I ever learned.

I can get by in SQL.

The more programming languages you know, the easier it is to pick up 
additional programming languages. And the less likely you are to treat 
your favorite language (or the only one you know) as a panacea. And if 
you have good linkage capabilities, mixed-language work is not difficult 
at all.


Not much that's on the published list. But then again, when I leave my 
present employment, I'm probably never going to write a single line of 
code professionally again.


--
JHHL

Re: Top 7 Programming Languages That Employers Really Want

[Jeremy Nicoll]

On Fri, 18 Oct 2019, at 23:34, John Hasler wrote:

> I guess some people who started with BASIC do eventually recover.

It's not all that bad.

At my first place of employment, we ran WATERLOO BASIC (from the 
University of Waterloo) for students to learn how to program.

This was on an IBM mainframe, running VM/CMS, and the text editor 
(Xedit) was programmable.  I wrote a set of fairly complex Xedit 'macro'
programs which allowed students to write code in an extended non-line-
numbered syntactically-sugared version of the language, with what 
appeared to be 'proper' procedures/functions.

As they exited from the editor, the macros converted the code they'd
typed back to the more basic form of the language for it to be run, 
and as they started to edit one of these programmes the GOTO-ridden
code would be transformed into the apparently more structured version
of the language.

Unfortunately we could only let the more competent students use the 
'better' language, because they had to understand the 'on the fly'
changes that were made... so they could cope with runtime error 
messages from the actual (less sophistcated) code, which didn't 
precisely match what they saw in the text editor.

-- 
Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

Re: Top 7 Programming Languages That Employers Really Want

[John Hasler]

Thomas writes:
> The only right way is to work down from a BASIC on ROM, which is said
> to have in part been coded by William Henry Gates III himself, to a
> self-made assembler, and then back to Rocky Mountain BASIC on HP
> desktops.  Finally you move to a Unix workstation (16 MHz and 4 MB of
> RAM suffice), learn Bourne shell and C, and be done.

I guess some people who started with BASIC do eventually recover.

FORTRAN on 1620s and 370s, C on MTS, Z80 assembler (hand assembled until
I finally got an assembler), Pascal on a PDP11, bare metal hex for the
RCA 1802, FORTH using an 1802 FORTH system I helped write (in hex), and
finally UNIX System III on my very own Onyx.  I eventually did do some
stuff in BASIC but by then my immunity was established so I don't think
there was any brain damage.  Perl and Python too after that, of course.
-- 
John Hasler 
jhas...@newsguy.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: Top 7 Programming Languages That Employers Really Want

[Jeremy Nicoll]

This discussion is spammed across a whole bunch of linux dstro mail lists.

On Fri, 18 Oct 2019, at 19:56, ghe wrote:

> Pascal teaches you to think good thoughts. It's was a wonderful language
> to learn back in the late 1970s.

Yes, or Algol...

> Perl's mantra is "There's more than one way to do it". That's part of
> the reason Perl's considered (by some) a write only language -- you
> can't understand what you wrote last week.

Perl is a whole lot more readable than APL.

-- 
Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

Re: Top 7 Programming Languages That Employers Really Want

[David Wright]

On Fri 18 Oct 2019 at 23:22:37 (+0200), Thomas Schmitt wrote:
> Doug McGarrett wrote:
> > [...] and I learned to use BASIC.
> 
> And ? Any recognizable damage left ? :o)
> 
> > (This was in the days when we had
> > an acoustic modem and a Teletype machine, and the mainframe was
> > 1500 miles away!)
> 
> I had a color tv and a VIC-20 on the couch table.
> 
> > Later, I learned a "real" language, Pascal.
> 
> Arghh. Get hot water ! Get some disinfectant ! Get some iodine !
> 
> The only right way is to work down from a BASIC on ROM, which is said to
> have in part been coded by William Henry Gates III himself, to a self-made
> assembler, and then back to Rocky Mountain BASIC on HP desktops.

Ah, our annual nostalgia trip! I'll save some typing:

https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2018/08/msg00949.html
https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2018/08/msg00993.html

Cheers,
David.

Re: Top 7 Programming Languages That Employers Really Want

[Brian]

On Fri 18 Oct 2019 at 13:26:03 -0400, Doug McGarrett wrote:

> 
> 
> On 10/18/2019 09:31 AM, Dan Ritter wrote:
> > Turritopsis Dohrnii Teo En Ming wrote:
> > > Subject: Top 7 Programming Languages That Employers Really Want
> > > 
> > > This is just a quick survey. May I know what programming languages do
> > > you know? I am considering being a programmer or developer.
> > > How long will it take for me to master a programming language like
> > > C++, Java, and Python?
> > 
> > Nobody knows.
> > 
> > 
> skip intro

You, and everybody else, may as well have skipped the whole post and
saved the List from wasting bandwidth. I ask you

 > This is just a quick survey.

Really?

 > I am considering being a programmer

Wowee.

 > Turritopsis Dohrnii

Jellyfish. Hard to grasp.

 >  How long will it take

Where's that piece of string?

 > Top 7 Programming Languages That Employers Really Want

Nobody has answered the question yet.

-- 
Brian.

> > 
> > Most experienced programmers know two or three computer languages very
> > well, and one or two others just enough to figure out what a program is
> > doing.
> > 
> > Python is generally considered a good language to start learning
> > the ideas of programming, and is also widely used for a variety
> > of tasks. I think "Learn Python The Hard Way" is an excellent
> > introductory book. It will take a dedicated student at least
> > two months to get through it, or about a year if you work on it
> > one day a week or so.
> > 
> > Once you know one programming language, you will find it much
> > easier to learn new ones in the same family of languages, and
> > also easier to learn unrelated languages. For example, once you
> > understand the concept of a typed variable, you won't have to
> > relearn that -- just what the types available in a given
> > language are.
> > 
> > I work in shell, Perl, Python, Ruby; I use some special purpose
> > languages like SQL, and specialized configuration languages like
> > Cisco IOS and Juniper's JunOS. I have used any number of
> > languages in the past that I don't encounter much, like LISP,
> > FORTRAN and Prolog.
> > 
> > I don't consider myself a programmer. I'm a senior
> > general-purpose systems administrator with network engineering,
> > security and people-management specialties.
> > 
> > -dsr-
> 
> I'm not a programmer either. I started learning code way back
> when BASIC and Fortran seemed to be the most common languages,
> and I learned to use BASIC. (This was in the days when we had
> an acoustic modem and a Teletype machine, and the mainframe was
> 1500 miles away!) Later, I learned a "real" language, Pascal.
> When I discovered the case statement, I was in heaven! What a
> mess it was to do the equivalent in BASIC! As an RF engineer,
> it was really handy to solve some repetitive equations in Pascal.
> 
> I'm not sure if any Pascal compilers are still available, but
> Turbo was the most popular back when. Until the last version
> came out, and it was too complicated for its own good.
> 
> I took a good look at Python, and decided that the necessary
> indentation was too much for me to deal with. Maybe there is
> some kind of automated system for doing this, but I don't know
> of it.
> 
> As for as learning to code, the most important part of any coding
> language routine is to state a problem and define a means of solving
> it, step by step, before you write a word of code, regardless of the coding
> language! (This usually is called "pseudo code.") So if you have
> a logical mind, that's the first step.
> 
> --doug
> 

Re: Top 7 Programming Languages That Employers Really Want

[mick crane]

On 2019-10-18 22:22, Thomas Schmitt wrote:


But with a text editor i write a description in form of C structures
and function stubs, which i fill by remarks to roughly describe what
to have or to do where and when. Already during this design stage i use
as much compilable C code as possible to describe what i mean.
The overall design paradigm is object oriented but without fancy stuff
like overloading or inheritance. Encapsulation and aggregation must
suffice.


This is interesting topic for me but don't know what these words
"overloading or inheritance. Encapsulation and aggregation"
mean in programming context
not being very good at this stuff.
Any chance of expanding this thinking in design stage ?

mick

--
Key ID4BFEBB31

Re: Top 7 Programming Languages That Employers Really Want

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

Doug McGarrett wrote:
> [...] and I learned to use BASIC.

And ? Any recognizable damage left ? :o)


> (This was in the days when we had
> an acoustic modem and a Teletype machine, and the mainframe was
> 1500 miles away!)

I had a color tv and a VIC-20 on the couch table.


> Later, I learned a "real" language, Pascal.

Arghh. Get hot water ! Get some disinfectant ! Get some iodine !

The only right way is to work down from a BASIC on ROM, which is said to
have in part been coded by William Henry Gates III himself, to a self-made
assembler, and then back to Rocky Mountain BASIC on HP desktops.
Finally you move to a Unix workstation (16 MHz and 4 MB of RAM suffice),
learn Bourne shell and C, and be done.


> As for as learning to code, the most important part of any coding
> language routine is to state a problem and define a means of solving
> it, step by step, before you write a word of code, regardless of the coding
> language!

That's what i did on my Texas Instruments TI-58C with its math assembler
language and merciless programming interface.
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TI-59_/_TI-58

But with a text editor i write a description in form of C structures
and function stubs, which i fill by remarks to roughly describe what
to have or to do where and when. Already during this design stage i use
as much compilable C code as possible to describe what i mean.
The overall design paradigm is object oriented but without fancy stuff
like overloading or inheritance. Encapsulation and aggregation must
suffice.
Then i go on an implementation frenzy.
Testing feels like hangover with debugger breakfast.

On larger projects be prepared for euphoria, nervous breakdown,
baseless hope, deep dispair, and - in case of survival - the feeling
to have once again muddled through.

Hoo-yawn ...
  goto bed;


Have a nice day :)

Thomas
bed:;

Re: Top 7 Programming Languages That Employers Really Want

[Joe]

On Fri, 18 Oct 2019 13:26:03 -0400
Doug McGarrett  wrote:

> On 10/18/2019 09:31 AM, Dan Ritter wrote:
> > Turritopsis Dohrnii Teo En Ming wrote:  
> >> Subject: Top 7 Programming Languages That Employers Really Want
> >>
> >> This is just a quick survey. May I know what programming languages
> >> do you know? I am considering being a programmer or developer.
> >> How long will it take for me to master a programming language like
> >> C++, Java, and Python?  
> >
> > Nobody knows.
> >
> >  
> skip intro
> >
> > Most experienced programmers know two or three computer languages
> > very well, and one or two others just enough to figure out what a
> > program is doing.
> >
> > Python is generally considered a good language to start learning
> > the ideas of programming, and is also widely used for a variety
> > of tasks. I think "Learn Python The Hard Way" is an excellent
> > introductory book. It will take a dedicated student at least
> > two months to get through it, or about a year if you work on it
> > one day a week or so.
> >
> > Once you know one programming language, you will find it much
> > easier to learn new ones in the same family of languages, and
> > also easier to learn unrelated languages. For example, once you
> > understand the concept of a typed variable, you won't have to
> > relearn that -- just what the types available in a given
> > language are.
> >
> > I work in shell, Perl, Python, Ruby; I use some special purpose
> > languages like SQL, and specialized configuration languages like
> > Cisco IOS and Juniper's JunOS. I have used any number of
> > languages in the past that I don't encounter much, like LISP,
> > FORTRAN and Prolog.
> >
> > I don't consider myself a programmer. I'm a senior
> > general-purpose systems administrator with network engineering,
> > security and people-management specialties.
> >
> > -dsr-  
> 
> I'm not a programmer either. I started learning code way back
> when BASIC and Fortran seemed to be the most common languages,
> and I learned to use BASIC. (This was in the days when we had
> an acoustic modem and a Teletype machine, and the mainframe was
> 1500 miles away!) Later, I learned a "real" language, Pascal.
> When I discovered the case statement, I was in heaven! What a
> mess it was to do the equivalent in BASIC! As an RF engineer,
> it was really handy to solve some repetitive equations in Pascal.

I learned BASIC as the integer-only Applesoft, on an Apple II. A year
or two later I bought a BBC Micro, which had BBC BASIC built in.
Functions, procedures, recursion, case, all sorts of stuff that proper
BASIC didn't have. Oh, and a built-in assembler for the 6502. The later
Acorn Archimedes had an ARM assembler built in. 
> 
> I'm not sure if any Pascal compilers are still available, but
> Turbo was the most popular back when. Until the last version
> came out, and it was too complicated for its own good.

I came to Pascal from BBC BASIC, and found it a bit of an anti-climax.
There didn't seem to be that much difference.
> 
> I took a good look at Python, and decided that the necessary
> indentation was too much for me to deal with. Maybe there is
> some kind of automated system for doing this, but I don't know
> of it.
> 
> As for as learning to code, the most important part of any coding
> language routine is to state a problem and define a means of solving
> it, step by step, before you write a word of code, regardless of the 
> coding language! (This usually is called "pseudo code.") So if you
> have a logical mind, that's the first step.

"Kludgecode", I've seen it called, in a programming book I read about
forty years ago.

I mostly code as a hobby, I've sold a bit of Delphi and PIC assembler
as parts of something larger, but I've never been employed as a
developer. I think the OP may not realise that most development jobs
require a year of two of *commercial* experience using all the latest
buzzwords. Basically they're looking to hire people already doing the
same job for competitors.

I have a selection of computer hardware, so I mostly code in PHP on my
web server now. I notice that nobody else mentioned PHP. I consider
client-side code to be the work of the Devil.

-- 
Joe 

Re: Top 7 Programming Languages That Employers Really Want

[ghe]

On 10/18/19 11:44 AM, hdv@gmail wrote:

> On 18/10/2019 19.26, Doug McGarrett wrote:
> 
> ...
> 
>> I'm not sure if any Pascal compilers are still available, but
>> Turbo was the most popular back when. Until the last version
>> came out, and it was too complicated for its own good.
> 
> Forgive me for barging in, but I just had to answer that.
> 
> Sure there is! Take a look at Free Pascal (freepascal.org). It is very much
> alive. I use the RAD editor Lazarus (a clone of Delphi for those who still
> remember what that was) that goes with it regularly.

GNU claims to have one too. Search for 'linux pascal compilers'.

>> I took a good look at Python, and decided that the necessary
>> indentation was too much for me to deal with. Maybe there is
>> some kind of automated system for doing this, but I don't know
>> of it.

Vim knows about Python's indentation fixation. It automatically indents
when it sees a colon.

Pascal teaches you to think good thoughts. It's was a wonderful language
to learn back in the late 1970s.

Perl's mantra is "There's more than one way to do it". That's part of
the reason Perl's considered (by some) a write only language -- you
can't understand what you wrote last week.

Python's is "There's only one way to do it". I skipped Python a while
back because of the indentation, too. A Python program looks a lot like
a C program run through a prettyPrinter.

I miss C's preprocessor, but Python has some cool new data structures
and capabilities that more than make up for that omission. Still no
constants, though.


I'd suggest C, Java, Python3, some shell, Perl, and a few others the
employer uses. FORTRAN can be useful for some applications. But if they
want you to write COBOL or BASIC, look for another job :-)

-- 
Glenn English

Re: Top 7 Programming Languages That Employers Really Want

[Jude DaShiell]

On Fri, 18 Oct 2019, Doug McGarrett wrote:

> Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2019 13:26:03
> From: Doug McGarrett 
> To: Dan Ritter ,
> Turritopsis Dohrnii Teo En Ming 
> Cc: debian-user@lists.debian.org
> Subject: Re: Top 7 Programming Languages That Employers Really Want
> Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2019 17:26:48 + (UTC)
> Resent-From: debian-user@lists.debian.org
>
>
>
> On 10/18/2019 09:31 AM, Dan Ritter wrote:
> > Turritopsis Dohrnii Teo En Ming wrote:
> >> Subject: Top 7 Programming Languages That Employers Really Want
> >>
> >> This is just a quick survey. May I know what programming languages do
> >> you know? I am considering being a programmer or developer.
> >> How long will it take for me to master a programming language like
> >> C++, Java, and Python?
> >
> > Nobody knows.
> >
> >
> skip intro
> >
> > Most experienced programmers know two or three computer languages very
> > well, and one or two others just enough to figure out what a program is
> > doing.
> >
> > Python is generally considered a good language to start learning
> > the ideas of programming, and is also widely used for a variety
> > of tasks. I think "Learn Python The Hard Way" is an excellent
> > introductory book. It will take a dedicated student at least
> > two months to get through it, or about a year if you work on it
> > one day a week or so.
> >
> > Once you know one programming language, you will find it much
> > easier to learn new ones in the same family of languages, and
> > also easier to learn unrelated languages. For example, once you
> > understand the concept of a typed variable, you won't have to
> > relearn that -- just what the types available in a given
> > language are.
> >
> > I work in shell, Perl, Python, Ruby; I use some special purpose
> > languages like SQL, and specialized configuration languages like
> > Cisco IOS and Juniper's JunOS. I have used any number of
> > languages in the past that I don't encounter much, like LISP,
> > FORTRAN and Prolog.
> >
> > I don't consider myself a programmer. I'm a senior
> > general-purpose systems administrator with network engineering,
> > security and people-management specialties.
> >
> > -dsr-
>
> I'm not a programmer either. I started learning code way back
> when BASIC and Fortran seemed to be the most common languages,
> and I learned to use BASIC. (This was in the days when we had
> an acoustic modem and a Teletype machine, and the mainframe was
> 1500 miles away!) Later, I learned a "real" language, Pascal.
> When I discovered the case statement, I was in heaven! What a
> mess it was to do the equivalent in BASIC! As an RF engineer,
> it was really handy to solve some repetitive equations in Pascal.
>
> I'm not sure if any Pascal compilers are still available, but
> Turbo was the most popular back when. Until the last version
> came out, and it was too complicated for its own good.
>
> I took a good look at Python, and decided that the necessary
> indentation was too much for me to deal with. Maybe there is
> some kind of automated system for doing this, but I don't know
> of it.
>
> As for as learning to code, the most important part of any coding
> language routine is to state a problem and define a means of solving
> it, step by step, before you write a word of code, regardless of the coding
> language! (This usually is called "pseudo code.") So if you have
> a logical mind, that's the first step.
>
> --doug
>
The yabasic interpreter has a switch statement which takes case
statements inside it.  One rather unique feature of yabasic is the bind
command which binds your source code to the interpreter and in that way
constructs a stand-alone package.

> >

--

Re: Top 7 Programming Languages That Employers Really Want

[hdv@gmail]

On 18/10/2019 19.26, Doug McGarrett wrote:

...

> I'm not sure if any Pascal compilers are still available, but
> Turbo was the most popular back when. Until the last version
> came out, and it was too complicated for its own good.

Forgive me for barging in, but I just had to answer that.

Sure there is! Take a look at Free Pascal (freepascal.org). It is very much
alive. I use the RAD editor Lazarus (a clone of Delphi for those who still
remember what that was) that goes with it regularly.

> I took a good look at Python, and decided that the necessary
> indentation was too much for me to deal with. Maybe there is
> some kind of automated system for doing this, but I don't know
> of it.

This admission proves I am becoming an old fart, but I just can't give up my
precious perl... I like Python a lot, but perl is still my goto language.

Grx HdV

Re: Top 7 Programming Languages That Employers Really Want

[Doug McGarrett]

On 10/18/2019 09:31 AM, Dan Ritter wrote:

Turritopsis Dohrnii Teo En Ming wrote:

Subject: Top 7 Programming Languages That Employers Really Want

This is just a quick survey. May I know what programming languages do
you know? I am considering being a programmer or developer.
How long will it take for me to master a programming language like
C++, Java, and Python?


Nobody knows.



skip intro


Most experienced programmers know two or three computer languages very
well, and one or two others just enough to figure out what a program is
doing.

Python is generally considered a good language to start learning
the ideas of programming, and is also widely used for a variety
of tasks. I think "Learn Python The Hard Way" is an excellent
introductory book. It will take a dedicated student at least
two months to get through it, or about a year if you work on it
one day a week or so.

Once you know one programming language, you will find it much
easier to learn new ones in the same family of languages, and
also easier to learn unrelated languages. For example, once you
understand the concept of a typed variable, you won't have to
relearn that -- just what the types available in a given
language are.

I work in shell, Perl, Python, Ruby; I use some special purpose
languages like SQL, and specialized configuration languages like
Cisco IOS and Juniper's JunOS. I have used any number of
languages in the past that I don't encounter much, like LISP,
FORTRAN and Prolog.

I don't consider myself a programmer. I'm a senior
general-purpose systems administrator with network engineering,
security and people-management specialties.

-dsr-


I'm not a programmer either. I started learning code way back
when BASIC and Fortran seemed to be the most common languages,
and I learned to use BASIC. (This was in the days when we had
an acoustic modem and a Teletype machine, and the mainframe was
1500 miles away!) Later, I learned a "real" language, Pascal.
When I discovered the case statement, I was in heaven! What a
mess it was to do the equivalent in BASIC! As an RF engineer,
it was really handy to solve some repetitive equations in Pascal.

I'm not sure if any Pascal compilers are still available, but
Turbo was the most popular back when. Until the last version
came out, and it was too complicated for its own good.

I took a good look at Python, and decided that the necessary
indentation was too much for me to deal with. Maybe there is
some kind of automated system for doing this, but I don't know
of it.

As for as learning to code, the most important part of any coding
language routine is to state a problem and define a means of solving
it, step by step, before you write a word of code, regardless of the 
coding language! (This usually is called "pseudo code.") So if you have

a logical mind, that's the first step.

--doug

Re: Top 7 Programming Languages That Employers Really Want

[Dan Ritter]

Turritopsis Dohrnii Teo En Ming wrote: 
> Subject: Top 7 Programming Languages That Employers Really Want
> 
> This is just a quick survey. May I know what programming languages do
> you know? I am considering being a programmer or developer.
> How long will it take for me to master a programming language like
> C++, Java, and Python?

Nobody knows.

The art of programming is in two parts. The first part is to be
able to think extremely clearly and rationally about a complex
system -- not the computer, usually, but the problem that you
are trying to solve. The second part is writing down those
thoughts in an artificial, highly constrained formal language.

Most experienced programmers know two or three computer languages very
well, and one or two others just enough to figure out what a program is
doing.

Python is generally considered a good language to start learning
the ideas of programming, and is also widely used for a variety
of tasks. I think "Learn Python The Hard Way" is an excellent
introductory book. It will take a dedicated student at least
two months to get through it, or about a year if you work on it
one day a week or so.

Once you know one programming language, you will find it much
easier to learn new ones in the same family of languages, and
also easier to learn unrelated languages. For example, once you
understand the concept of a typed variable, you won't have to
relearn that -- just what the types available in a given
language are.

I work in shell, Perl, Python, Ruby; I use some special purpose
languages like SQL, and specialized configuration languages like
Cisco IOS and Juniper's JunOS. I have used any number of
languages in the past that I don't encounter much, like LISP, 
FORTRAN and Prolog.

I don't consider myself a programmer. I'm a senior
general-purpose systems administrator with network engineering,
security and people-management specialties.

-dsr-

-dsr-