strange behavior with Nvidia driver on Bookworm (12)

[Eben King]

Since I installed a GTX 970 and the Nvidia driver on my Bookworm (12)
system, I've noticed some odd behavior.  I'll start with the most obnoxious.
 I'm open to any ideas.  Well, not _any_ any.

1. Last night before I went to bed I suspended my computer at 2:24:55.  The
next log message is at 7:08:53.  I definitely wasn't awake then.  Why would
it awaken in the middle of the night?  The keyboard tray was pushed in, so
it shouldn't be a case of kitten on the keys.

journalctl = https://pastebin.com/0dAakK3H
dmesg = https://pastebin.com/tjeiwubf
xsession-errors = https://pastebin.com/nbu7dLBW

These excerpts all start at the time I issued the suspend command, until
after I fixed the monitors (or the end of the file if I couldn't figure out
when that was).  If you need the whole "from boot" log, let me know.

2.  I have three monitors, arranged in a row L-R.  Left=DP=1920x1080 but
rotated CW 90°.  The other two are DVI 1920x1200 and not rotated.  I wrote a
script (fixmonitors) that calls xrandr to put the monitors back in the
positions and orientations that make sense, and it's called from
./share/lightdm/lightdm.conf.d/80-display-setup.conf :

[SeatDefaults]
display-setup-script=/export/bin/fixmonitors

Works great, normally.  When I woke up the screens to log in, only center &
right ones woke, left was dark.  So I killed lightdm with ctrl-alt-bkspc
which made it respawn and call fixmonitors again, and left appeared.

The left screen also appears sideways when the computer's locked for a long
time.  The same workaround would probably work there too but I didn't notice
it was wrong until after I'd logged in.

3. Sometimes xfwm crashes on resume, and I have to run "DISPLAY=:0 xfwm &"
from the console to fix it.  When that happens, the Workplace Switcher,
instead of displaying 8 triple-wide images (one for each workplace),
displays 8 single-wide images.  Some (all?) startup apps (the ones from
Settings -> Session and Startup -> Application Autostart) don't run, but I
suspect xfce isn't putting /export/bin in $PATH despite what /etc/profile
says to do.  Or when I run xfwm manually it doesn't run startup programs.

My DVD drives also stopped ejecting, but since they also don't work in the
BIOS, it's probably not OS-related.

--
AQUARIUS:  There's travel in your future when your tongue freezes to the
back of a speeding bus.  Fill the void in your pathetic life by playing
Whack-a-Mole 17 hours a day.  -- Weird Al, _Your Horoscope for Today_

Re: Where is the user community? (Was Re: Strange behavior of ifupdown package)

[George at Clug]

On Tuesday, 30-07-2024 at 02:21 Jan Krapivin wrote:
> There is Debian community in Discord
> 
> https://discord.gg/debian
> 
> https://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?p=803217&hilit=discord#p803217
> 
> пн, 29 июл. 2024 г. в 19:15, :
> 
> > Michel Verdier  wrote:
> > > On 2024-07-28, Michael Grant wrote:
> > >
> > > +1 to all you say.
> > >
> > > > Maybe one of you younger folks can teach me how one deals with
> > > > keeping up with a forum like that.
> > >
> > > Once upon a time there was usenet. After a while there was a
> > > mail-to-news gateway. It ease a lot coping with this change of
> > > medium. If the same could be done with mailing lists <-> forums,
> > > perhaps the miracle would come again :)
> >
> > There's a system called HyperKitty that bridges between a forum and a
> > mailing list. openSUSE use it and the particular settings lead to
> > something of a spam problem :(
> >
> > There's also https://forums.debian.net/index.php of course, if somebody
> > wants a forum. :)

Do you know of any debian groups who meet up using Video Conferencing?

And are there any debian groups who physically get together to talk about 
Debian?

George
> >
> >
> 

Re: Where is the user community? (Was Re: Strange behavior of ifupdown package)

[Donald Norwood]

Hi,

(I am subscribed to the list, but a CC would be appreciated :) )

On 7/28/24 16:53, Andy Smith wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> On Sun, Jul 28, 2024 at 06:15:21PM +0100, Ian Molton wrote:
>> Which web forum has the commuity moved to then? I should like to join it...
> 
> Sadly, the Debian project is not willing to move with the times and
> bless a modern web support community such as Discourse (a Stack
> Overflow or AskUbuntu-like interface, for those who are unaware).

I was unaware of this, could you please detail?
> They tried a couple of times to launch such a thing but without any
> official support and very little advertising, no one used it and the
> efforts faltered each time. Without a concerted effort to drive user
> support to such a place, I don't think it's worth trying again.
> 
> There is a Debian web forum which is not official and I wouldn't
> recommend it.
I can speak for the Debian User Forums which are officially part of Debian
and have been for quite some time now.

Unfortunately the topic overall concerning user community can be
deceptively under simplified. There are multiple user Forums, Reddits,
Discords, IRC and Telegram channels, ... et al., large communities that
focus solely on Debian.

One need to only find the best avenue for their needs, desired support and
technical level. There really are no user lockouts or unsupported areas
surrounding Debian. Generally as a community we are very welcoming even on
the un-official areas where users congregate.




Be well,

-Donald

-- 
-
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Donald Norwood
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ B7A1 5F45 5B28 7F38 4174
⠈⠳⣄ D5E9 E5EC 4AC9 BD62 7B05

Re: Where is the user community? (Was Re: Strange behaviorofifupdownpackage)

[gene heskett]

On 7/29/24 04:47, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

On Mon, Jul 29, 2024 at 04:32:43AM -0400, gene heskett wrote:

[...] I can't even post a 10k .png here.


I don't believe you. There sure is a limit, 10k seems too small.
It may have been bigger, its long forgotten but it was small and it was 
silently stripped.


It'd be unpolite anyway -- forcing 6k people to download your
attachments (there are still folks on limited bandwidth, y'know).

I'm on shentel's lowest cost account, phone and net. No tv. rooftop 
antenna.  100 gig a month which I only approached for 2 months, found 
the neighbor across the street was using my wifi to watch porn on his 
fone. Turned off the wifi so I'm using only a gig or 5 a month.



There is paste.debian.net for that: dump your cat vid there, include
a link in the mail, done.


That doesn't appear to be public knowledge, thank you


Complaining is always OK, but it is even more OK to do some research
before :-)

Cheers


Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: Where is the user community? (Was Re: Strange behavior of ifupdown package)

[Jan Krapivin]

There is Debian community in Discord

https://discord.gg/debian

https://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?p=803217&hilit=discord#p803217

пн, 29 июл. 2024 г. в 19:15, :

> Michel Verdier  wrote:
> > On 2024-07-28, Michael Grant wrote:
> >
> > +1 to all you say.
> >
> > > Maybe one of you younger folks can teach me how one deals with
> > > keeping up with a forum like that.
> >
> > Once upon a time there was usenet. After a while there was a
> > mail-to-news gateway. It ease a lot coping with this change of
> > medium. If the same could be done with mailing lists <-> forums,
> > perhaps the miracle would come again :)
>
> There's a system called HyperKitty that bridges between a forum and a
> mailing list. openSUSE use it and the particular settings lead to
> something of a spam problem :(
>
> There's also https://forums.debian.net/index.php of course, if somebody
> wants a forum. :)
>
>

Re: Where is the user community? (Was Re: Strange behavior of ifupdown package)

[debian-user]

Michel Verdier  wrote:
> On 2024-07-28, Michael Grant wrote:
> 
> +1 to all you say.
> 
> > Maybe one of you younger folks can teach me how one deals with
> > keeping up with a forum like that.  
> 
> Once upon a time there was usenet. After a while there was a
> mail-to-news gateway. It ease a lot coping with this change of
> medium. If the same could be done with mailing lists <-> forums,
> perhaps the miracle would come again :)

There's a system called HyperKitty that bridges between a forum and a
mailing list. openSUSE use it and the particular settings lead to
something of a spam problem :(

There's also https://forums.debian.net/index.php of course, if somebody
wants a forum. :)

Re: Where is the user community? (Was Re: Strange behavior of ifupdown package)

[Joe]

On Mon, 29 Jul 2024 06:24:35 +0200
 wrote:

> On Sun, Jul 28, 2024 at 08:53:18PM +, Andy Smith wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > On Sun, Jul 28, 2024 at 06:15:21PM +0100, Ian Molton wrote:  
> > > Which web forum has the commuity moved to then? I should like to
> > > join it...  
> > 
> > Sadly, the Debian project is not willing to move with the times and
> > bless a modern web support community such as Discourse (a Stack
> > Overflow or AskUbuntu-like interface, for those who are unaware).  
> 
> There it is, the "modern times" meme and the "mail is old" meme.
> 
> I have seen lots of it. I have used Discourse (one of the communities
> I take part in tried to move from a mailing list to Discourse: the
> "forum" crawls on, as a half-zombie and a write-only medium, the real
> action, is, five years on, still on the ML). Personally, I do hate
> Discourse, with passion. As most of those fora.
> 
> I won't go into details, because this is bound to be one of those
> monster threads: let's agree on "it is a matter of taste".
> 
> Nothing to do with "modern".
> 
A lot of people confuse the words 'modern' and 'new' with the word
'better'.

Old people are largely more 'set in their ways' because they have seen
a great many new ways tried and found wanting.

-- 
Joe

Re: Where is the user community? (Was Re: Strange behaviorofifupdown package)

[Andy Smith]

On Mon, Jul 29, 2024 at 04:32:43AM -0400, gene heskett wrote:
> On 7/29/24 03:53, Andy Smith wrote:
> > On Sun, Jul 28, 2024 at 11:00:08PM -0400, gene heskett wrote:
> > > On 7/28/24 22:02, Andy Smith wrote:
> > > > Discourse is not Discord. They are completely different pieces of
> > > > software made by different people with different purposes. You are
> > > > the first person to have mentioned Discord in this thread.
> > > > 
> > > I am on the Discord list for klipper and other 3d printing friends. Its
> > > generally good. We even get answers from the sw's authors. Solid,
> > > knowledgeable answers. It can be a breath of fresh air.
> > 
> > I believe that you, now, are referring to Discourse installs, but
> > calling them Discord, which is only increasing people's confusion.
> > 
> The icon on the opening firefox screen is self labeled Discord Andy, a one
> click login to the main menu.

Okay well a quick look says that the Klipper community has both a
Discourse and Discord so I am still not sure which you refer to.

https://www.klipper3d.org/Contact.html

"There is a Klipper Community Discourse server for "forum" style
discussions on Klipper. Note that Discourse is not Discord."

"There is a Discord server dedicated to Klipper at:
https://discord.klipper3d.org. Note that Discord is not
Discourse."

It doesn't really matter.

Since the topic here was forum-style discussion, I was referring to
Discourse although for a question/answer purpose I actually
recommend Stack-like sites; AskUbuntu would be the nearest example.

Point is, as you can see by Klipper's page as well, people often
confuse Discourse and Discord but they are very different things.

Thanks,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Re: Where is the user community? (Was Re: Strange behavior of ifupdown package)

[Dan Ritter]

Michel Verdier wrote: 
> On 2024-07-28, Michael Grant wrote:
> 
> +1 to all you say.
> 
> > Maybe one of you younger folks can teach me how one deals with keeping
> > up with a forum like that.
> 
> Once upon a time there was usenet. After a while there was a mail-to-news
> gateway. It ease a lot coping with this change of medium. If the same
> could be done with mailing lists <-> forums, perhaps the miracle would
> come again :)

There is, as far as I know, exactly one system that works that
way.

The good news: it's open source with a Debian-acceptable
license.

The bad news: it's not packaged. It appears to be primarily, or
solely, the effort of one person. And it only has one running
instance that I'm aware of.

https://forum.dlang.org/ is the discussion system for the D
language. The web "forum" is a front end for Usenet. The mailing
list is a gateway for Usenet. And, of course, you can access it
via a Usenet server.

It also generates RSS (Atom) feeds and runs an IRC channel.

https://github.com/CyberShadow/DFeed has the source code. 


-dsr-

Re: Where is the user community? (Was Re: Strange behaviorofifupdown package)

[tomas]

On Mon, Jul 29, 2024 at 04:32:43AM -0400, gene heskett wrote:
> [...] I can't even post a 10k .png here.

I don't believe you. There sure is a limit, 10k seems too small.

It'd be unpolite anyway -- forcing 6k people to download your
attachments (there are still folks on limited bandwidth, y'know).

There is paste.debian.net for that: dump your cat vid there, include
a link in the mail, done.

Complaining is always OK, but it is even more OK to do some research
before :-)

Cheers
-- 
t


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Re: Where is the user community? (Was Re: Strange behaviorofifupdown package)

[gene heskett]

On 7/29/24 03:53, Andy Smith wrote:

Hi,

On Sun, Jul 28, 2024 at 11:00:08PM -0400, gene heskett wrote:

On 7/28/24 22:02, Andy Smith wrote:

Discourse is not Discord. They are completely different pieces of
software made by different people with different purposes. You are
the first person to have mentioned Discord in this thread.


I am on the Discord list for klipper and other 3d printing friends. Its
generally good. We even get answers from the sw's authors. Solid,
knowledgeable answers. It can be a breath of fresh air.


I believe that you, now, are referring to Discourse installs, but
calling them Discord, which is only increasing people's confusion.

The icon on the opening firefox screen is self labeled Discord Andy, a 
one click login to the main menu. I can click on it, post a msg, and get 
a useful reply in less than 5 minutes elapsed time quite often. Not only 
that, but the usual method they use for trouble shooting involves 
posting the complete log from a current session of klipper, a log which 
can run to 15 megabytes, no problem because of the size. I can't even 
post a 10k .png here. Or a screen snap showing the problem in far more 
detail than I can describe and get called a liar for trying to describe 
it it text.  The last calendar I have is for 2024, why is debian still 
running on dialup rules from 1995?



Unless you actually *are* talking about the realtime chat service
(like IRC), which would be unusual for a software support community
but not unheard of (rsync recently switched to using Discord for
realtime chat, for example).

Thanks,
Andy



Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: Where is the user community? (Was Re: Strange behavior of ifupdown package)

[Brad Rogers]

On Mon, 29 Jul 2024 02:44:03 -0400
Jeffrey Walton  wrote:

Hello Jeffrey,

>don't allow search engines to crawl their sites.

I hadn't even considered that.

-- 
 Regards  _   "Valid sig separator is {dash}{dash}{space}"
 / )  "The blindingly obvious is never immediately apparent"
/ _)rad   "Is it only me that has a working delete key?"
We are the chosen
Changed - Judgement Centre


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Re: Where is the user community? (Was Re: Strange behavior ofifupdown package)

[Andy Smith]

Hi,

On Sun, Jul 28, 2024 at 11:00:08PM -0400, gene heskett wrote:
> On 7/28/24 22:02, Andy Smith wrote:
> > Discourse is not Discord. They are completely different pieces of
> > software made by different people with different purposes. You are
> > the first person to have mentioned Discord in this thread.
> > 
> I am on the Discord list for klipper and other 3d printing friends. Its
> generally good. We even get answers from the sw's authors. Solid,
> knowledgeable answers. It can be a breath of fresh air.

I believe that you, now, are referring to Discourse installs, but
calling them Discord, which is only increasing people's confusion.

Unless you actually *are* talking about the realtime chat service
(like IRC), which would be unusual for a software support community
but not unheard of (rsync recently switched to using Discord for
realtime chat, for example).

Thanks,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Re: Where is the user community? (Was Re: Strange behavior of ifupdown package)

[Andy Smith]

Hi,

On Mon, Jul 29, 2024 at 02:06:09AM +, Walt E wrote:
> In some companies they block web traffic to those big forums like reddit.
> but mail is always possible to access.

Reality check: in a thread about the best way to help end users in
2024, someone suggests that email mailing lists are the way to
continue going because companies might block the web.

I am confident that other communities will do better.
Thanks,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Re: Where is the user community? (Was Re: Strange behavior of ifupdown package)

[Jeffrey Walton]

On Mon, Jul 29, 2024 at 1:53 AM Brad Rogers  wrote:
>
> On Sun, 28 Jul 2024 21:04:30 -0500
> Nate Bargmann  wrote:
>
> Hello Nate,
>
> >Discourse and Discord are two different technologies, AIUI
>
> Discourse also does this;
>
> Unfortunately, your browser is unsupported. Please switch to a supported
> browser to view rich content, log in and reply.
>
>
> Whilst it's not impossible to use their shite, err, site, with a niche
> browser, they do their best to try and stop one.  Of course, they're not
> the only organisation that use such tactics.  :-

One of the bigger problems (I find) with the social media and
community sites that want to replace a mailing list is, some sites
don't allow search engines to crawl their sites. So you don't even
know where to go to get a question answered. You have to start at the
site and search at the site.

I personally don't buy into the theres-an-app-for-that-mailing-list
mentality. I don't participate in the social networking experiments. I
refuse to be the product.

Jeff

Re: Where is the user community? (Was Re: Strange behavior of ifupdown package)

[Michel Verdier]

On 2024-07-28, Michael Grant wrote:

+1 to all you say.

> Maybe one of you younger folks can teach me how one deals with keeping
> up with a forum like that.

Once upon a time there was usenet. After a while there was a mail-to-news
gateway. It ease a lot coping with this change of medium. If the same
could be done with mailing lists <-> forums, perhaps the miracle would
come again :)

Re: Where is the user community? (Was Re: Strange behavior of ifupdown package)

[Brad Rogers]

On Sun, 28 Jul 2024 21:04:30 -0500
Nate Bargmann  wrote:

Hello Nate,

>Discourse and Discord are two different technologies, AIUI

Discourse also does this;

Unfortunately, your browser is unsupported. Please switch to a supported
browser to view rich content, log in and reply.


Whilst it's not impossible to use their shite, err, site, with a niche
browser, they do their best to try and stop one.  Of course, they're not
the only organisation that use such tactics.  :-(

-- 
 Regards  _   "Valid sig separator is {dash}{dash}{space}"
 / )  "The blindingly obvious is never immediately apparent"
/ _)rad   "Is it only me that has a working delete key?"
Do you want to play?
Play With Me - Extreme


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Re: Where is the user community? (Was Re: Strange behavior of ifupdown package)

[tomas]

On Sun, Jul 28, 2024 at 08:53:18PM +, Andy Smith wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> On Sun, Jul 28, 2024 at 06:15:21PM +0100, Ian Molton wrote:
> > Which web forum has the commuity moved to then? I should like to join it...
> 
> Sadly, the Debian project is not willing to move with the times and
> bless a modern web support community such as Discourse (a Stack
> Overflow or AskUbuntu-like interface, for those who are unaware).

There it is, the "modern times" meme and the "mail is old" meme.

I have seen lots of it. I have used Discourse (one of the communities
I take part in tried to move from a mailing list to Discourse: the
"forum" crawls on, as a half-zombie and a write-only medium, the real
action, is, five years on, still on the ML). Personally, I do hate
Discourse, with passion. As most of those fora.

I won't go into details, because this is bound to be one of those
monster threads: let's agree on "it is a matter of taste".

Nothing to do with "modern".

Cheers
-- 
t


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Re: Where is the user community? (Was Re: Strange behavior ofifupdown package)

[gene heskett]

On 7/28/24 22:02, Andy Smith wrote:

Hi,

On Sun, Jul 28, 2024 at 09:09:39PM -0400, Patrick Wiseman wrote:

I like this forum/format


Not wanting to try to convince people on a mailing list to not be on
a mailing list, so keeping this brief, but…


IMO Discord pretty much sucks.


Discourse is not Discord. They are completely different pieces of
software made by different people with different purposes. You are
the first person to have mentioned Discord in this thread.

Thanks,
Andy

I am on the Discord list for klipper and other 3d printing friends. Its 
generally good. We even get answers from the sw's authors. Solid, 
knowledgeable answers. It can be a breath of fresh air.

Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: Where is the user community? (Was Re: Strange behavior of ifupdown package)

[Walt E]

July 29, 2024 at 9:09 AM, "Patrick Wiseman"  wrote:

> > 
> 
> I mostly lurk here but I like this forum/format and hope Debian sticks with
> 
> it. IMO Discord pretty much sucks. There's a r/debian subreddit which looks
> 
> quite active and I've found other subreddits helpful.
> 
> Patrick
>

In some companies they block web traffic to those big forums like reddit.
but mail is always possible to access.
so mailing list is really a common way for looking for tech support.

Thanks.

Re: Where is the user community? (Was Re: Strange behavior of ifupdown package)

[Nate Bargmann]

* On 2024 28 Jul 20:11 -0500, Patrick Wiseman wrote:
> I mostly lurk here but I like this forum/format and hope Debian sticks with
> it. IMO Discord pretty much sucks. There's a r/debian subreddit which looks
> quite active and I've found other subreddits helpful.

Discourse and Discord are two different technologies, AIUI.  I much
prefer this style of email list to Discourse which seems like its based
on a participation trophy mentality than the sharing of technical
information.  Several projects I am interested in have switched to it
and in each case it has not won me over.  There are also subreddits for
each of the projects that I tend to prefer over the respective official
Discourse instances.

One of the biggest annoyances at least a couple of projects implement is
automatic thread locking after some period of time.  Sometimes
troubleshooting an issue takes a long time and in that system one needs
to start a new thread and link back to the prior one(s) for context.
Here I can go back and add to a thread I have kept in my MailDir.

Yes, I am old, a tail-end Boomer to be exact.

- Nate

-- 
"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this is true."
Web: https://www.n0nb.us
Projects: https://github.com/N0NB
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Re: Where is the user community? (Was Re: Strange behavior of ifupdown package)

[Andy Smith]

Hi,

On Sun, Jul 28, 2024 at 09:09:39PM -0400, Patrick Wiseman wrote:
> I like this forum/format

Not wanting to try to convince people on a mailing list to not be on
a mailing list, so keeping this brief, but…

> IMO Discord pretty much sucks.

Discourse is not Discord. They are completely different pieces of
software made by different people with different purposes. You are
the first person to have mentioned Discord in this thread.

Thanks,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Re: Where is the user community? (Was Re: Strange behavior of ifupdown package)

[Andy Smith]

Hi,

On Sun, Jul 28, 2024 at 06:32:58PM -0400, Michael Grant wrote:
> I never read web forums, I only really search for things in a
> search engine and then end up on a forum with possible answers.

The fact is that millions of tech questions are asked and answered
on Stack-like sites, probably more than on all mailing lists at this
point. When you search the web for an answer there's a good chance
you'll end up on one of these sites long before you will find an
archived mailing list posting. So the concept is proven to work for
user support in my opinion.

> Maybe one of you younger folks can teach me how one deals with keeping
> up with a forum like that.

I'm not young and I don't try to keep up. There are plenty of people
looking to provide answers, especially because of the Internet
Points they amass for having their answers upvoted and selected as
the solution.

On these typical sites you can set certain tags that you are
interested in, and then view a list of questions that match those
tags. Optionally only view ones with no answers yet. I just dip in
to that from time to time.

On slightly more discussion-focussed Discourse forums I set it into
mailing list mode and get a copy of all posts as email. In the rare
case that I feel like I have something to contribute to a particular
post then I click the link at the bottom of the email to view it in
its web interface to compose my reply. I understand it is possible
to reply to such things by email too, but I actually do appreciate
the editing facilities (e.g. markdown) of the web site.

But this is largely moot as I don't expect Debian support will
move away from mailing lists any time soon.

> tabs open in a browser all the time, perhaps on a laptop, desktop
> and phone and constantly checking out if there's new messages.  It
> seems insane.  I'd just end up letting things build up and not
> check daily. This model does not work for me.

Nor me.

> getting all forum posts
> in email becomes overwhelming.  It's not like this list, it's often
> like 10x more when people post micro-follups like a back and forth
> chat.

I don't find it a problem especially when compared to the ridiculous
threads that happen here.

Another thing to consider is that a strictly support-focussed web
site like a Stack site actively penalises off-topic chatter. That's
actually when I think is one of the best things about them when
compared to a mailing list. On here it's down to whoever can post
their nonsense the most often and most stridently, which is seen
every week from the same small group.

> if this list moved to a forum,

I advise against using this set of words because there is no real
chance of it happening yet it is enough to trigger some people who
are extremely devoted to mailings lists explaining at length why
that will be awful. For an academic discussion about something that
isn't going to happen.

> what you could do is cross post links to the forum for say a year
> to nudge people to use it.  That might finally push things over.

Doesn't really seem feasible. Bad as this place is, I wouldn't want
to see links to posts on forums.debian.net posted here and there
would be no point posting list archive links to a web site that the
person asking the question isn't even on.

I don't see any chance of success without Debian being willing to
prominently list such a site on its official web page as an official
place to get support.

> it would suck for me big to post stuff in a forum and get a load of
> crap responses just because people are trying to push up their score,
> or get no responses at all.

Bad answers on Stack sites tend to lose people Internet Points and
eventually get hidden. It's why useful answers appear more often in web
searches.

Whereas on this list, volume tends to win by attrition.

Thanks,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Re: Where is the user community? (Was Re: Strange behavior of ifupdown package)

[Michael Grant]

On Sun, Jul 28, 2024 at 08:53:18PM +, Andy Smith wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> On Sun, Jul 28, 2024 at 06:15:21PM +0100, Ian Molton wrote:
> > Which web forum has the commuity moved to then? I should like to join it...
> 
> Sadly, the Debian project is not willing to move with the times and
> bless a modern web support community such as Discourse (a Stack
> Overflow or AskUbuntu-like interface, for those who are unaware).
> ...

Here's my thoughts on this.  Stackoverflow has a nice presentation as
do many of these web forums.  It's pretty easy to use and one can
format the posts nicely and all.  I get it.  The modern world has
moved on from email lists like this.

On the other hand, I never read web forums, I only really search for
things in a search engine and then end up on a forum with possible
answers.  I have no clue how people actually read them and keep up
were there are so many hundreds or thousands of forums to keep up with
and so many posts per hour.  At least with a mailing list, I can get
it in my inbox and look at the subject lines and summarily delete the
threads I'm not or no longer interested in.  It forces me to deal with
it.  Hence I'm on a very limited number of lists like this.

Maybe one of you younger folks can teach me how one deals with keeping
up with a forum like that.  It seems like it means leaving a bunch of
tabs open in a browser all the time, perhaps on a laptop, desktop and
phone and constantly checking out if there's new messages.  It seems
insane.  I'd just end up letting things build up and not check
daily. This model does not work for me.  And getting all forum posts
in email becomes overwhelming.  It's not like this list, it's often
like 10x more when people post micro-follups like a back and forth
chat. 

At one time I thought RSS feeds might be the answer but this seem to
be dead, or maybe they're not dead but nothing mainstream uses them
anymore.  I really don't have a great solution.

Anyway, if this list moved to a forum, what you could do is cross post
links to the forum for say a year to nudge people to use it.  That
might finally push things over.

If this moves to a forum, it would suck if nobody answers questions
there or the responses are low quality.  I'm totally grateful for all
the responses I've gotten from folks on this list over the years and
it would suck for me big to post stuff in a forum and get a load of
crap responses just because people are trying to push up their score,
or get no responses at all.

So whatever the future is, I hope someone thinks some of these
things.  I'm all for something better if it is all around better and
that means the content within it, not just the fancy formatting.

Michael Grant


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Where is the user community? (Was Re: Strange behavior of ifupdown package)

[Andy Smith]

Hi,

On Sun, Jul 28, 2024 at 06:15:21PM +0100, Ian Molton wrote:
> Which web forum has the commuity moved to then? I should like to join it...

Sadly, the Debian project is not willing to move with the times and
bless a modern web support community such as Discourse (a Stack
Overflow or AskUbuntu-like interface, for those who are unaware).

They tried a couple of times to launch such a thing but without any
official support and very little advertising, no one used it and the
efforts faltered each time. Without a concerted effort to drive user
support to such a place, I don't think it's worth trying again.

There is a Debian web forum which is not official and I wouldn't
recommend it.

So we soldier on with this mailing list which has a dwindling appeal
just because email itself has a dwindling appeal, as well as all of
the list's other deficiencies as a support venue. This is not a
popular view here as there are a small number of prolific posters
here who enjoy holding court. Overall though, I don't think users
want to use email for support.

In summary I think the answer to your question is "the support
venues of other distributions".

If not wanting to change distribution you could try posting
questions on ServerFault or Unix&Linux Stack Exchange.

If you're specifically wanting to interact with Debian developers
though, as previously mentioned you really have to engage with the
Debian bug tracking system.

Thanks,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Re: Strange behavior of ifupdown package

[Greg Wooledge]

On Sun, Jul 28, 2024 at 19:08:58 +, MailGuard01 wrote:
> Is it still reasonable to add my experience to existing bug report, 
> or should I submit a new one instead? 

Adding to an existing bug report is a good thing, especially if you can
bring new insights, new examples, etc.

Re: Strange behavior of ifupdown package

[Brad Rogers]

On Sun, 28 Jul 2024 18:15:21 +0100 (GMT+01:00)
Ian Molton  wrote:

Hello Ian,

>Which web forum has the commuity moved to then? I should like to join 

Don't know.  Never considered switching.

From the web forums I have used, I've ascertained that they offer
nothing that can't be done on a mailing list, and they're a whole lot
less convenient.

-- 
 Regards  _   "Valid sig separator is {dash}{dash}{space}"
 / )  "The blindingly obvious is never immediately apparent"
/ _)rad   "Is it only me that has a working delete key?"
Just coz they do it in the movies, doesn't mean to say that it's cool
Keep It Clean - The Vibrators


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Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: Strange behavior of ifupdown package

[MailGuard01]

On Friday, July 26th, 2024 at PM 10:42, David Wright  
wrote:


> There is a bug report #960809, which seems related, and
> might be worth adding your experience to, if you think so.
> 
> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=960809
> 

Thank you for letting me know about this. I also noticed this issue 
earlier, but it seems to have been resolved, or at least I can not 
reproduce it. Not, all the main IPv6 address of each subnet are 
correctly mark as `mngtmpaddr`.

Is it still reasonable to add my experience to existing bug report, 
or should I submit a new one instead? 
But I still worried this is an isolated case. Will try to reproduce 
it on another environment once I got time.

> 
> I did wonder whether any of the randomness wrt reboots might be
> time-related, as skim reading the RFC, it seems to allow for storing
> a history of addresses used, and periodic generation of new ones
> rather than a fresh one every reboot.
> 

I didn't pay much attention to this since it only worked as expected 
maybe once or twice out of dozens of attempts. 

Based on my experience, the `addr_gen_mode` sysctl parameter might 
be responsible for this. It can stabilize the auto-configured IPv6,
but it only affect the management IPv6; the temporary one changes 
with every reboot.

Strangely, I do have a few Debian server that work regardless of the
configuration order, but freshly installed systems never do.

Re: Strange behavior of ifupdown package

[Ian Molton]

Which web forum has the commuity moved to then? I should like to join 
it...

Re: Strange behavior of ifupdown package

[Michel Verdier]

On 2024-07-28, Ian Molton wrote:

> https://lists.debian.org/stats/debian-user.png
>
> An alarming decline, with a multitude of reasons.
>
> But lack of community will be the one that ends that graph. Be in no doubt.

Members remains around 3000 so I don't see a decline for this.
Messages decline but I think we can't conclude clearly with those
statistics only. There is multiple channels for support apart mailing
lists. And is this a decline of community or better quality, easier use,
increased users skills ?
These statistics could raise your mood :)
https://wiki.debian.org/Statistics
with perhaps Member count: https://github.com/jwilk/dd-num-graph

Re: Strange behavior of ifupdown package

[Brad Rogers]

On Sun, 28 Jul 2024 09:35:22 +0100 (GMT+01:00)
Ian Molton  wrote:

Hello Ian,

>An alarming decline, with a multitude of reasons.

Same for most MLs;  People think web forums are better.

Passive/aggressive messages don't help, either.

-- 
 Regards  _   "Valid sig separator is {dash}{dash}{space}"
 / )  "The blindingly obvious is never immediately apparent"
/ _)rad   "Is it only me that has a working delete key?"
We are the League, we are the anti band
We're The League - Anti-Nowhere League


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Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: Strange behavior of ifupdown package

[Ian Molton]

Hi,

As I said - the mailing list stats. Public record.

Heres a picture.

https://lists.debian.org/stats/debian-user.png

An alarming decline, with a multitude of reasons.

But lack of community will be the one that ends that graph. Be in no 
doubt.

Re: Strange behavior of ifupdown package

[Michel Verdier]

On 2024-07-26, Ian Molton wrote:

> Michael, that was not a personal attack. I am in no doubt that you personally
> try to help.

And *was helped*. So I am not alone :)

> The statistics for this list, however, are public record. And they are indeed
> of concern.

Can you give the statistics which corroborate this ?

Re: Strange behavior of ifupdown package

[David]

On Fri, 2024-07-26 at 23:12 +0100, Ian Molton wrote:
> Michael, that was not a personal attack. I am in no doubt that you 
> personally try to help.
> 
> The statistics for this list, however, are public record. And they
> are 
> indeed of concern.
> 
> Like so many open source projects, Debian is clearly showing a loss
> of 
> community, and whilst it continues to be a solid pillar of the
> internet 
> generally, it appears to be increasingly maintained by a smaller 
> (proportionally) group as time goes by, with less community
> engagement.

What you say makes perfect sense.
I have already argued along this line.
There are some here who fail to understand that this kind of project is
different, and not to be `organised' along conventional lines.
It is a *community* project, and gains its vitality from the vitality
of that community.
The community has lost its vitality, so the project suffers.
You can't split the one aspect from the other.

At one time, this list literally raged!
There were discussions on all sorts of things, far beyond Debian, but
it was a vibrant community. And the project benefited from that
vibrancy.

Now, it is politically correct.
The difference is observable.
That difference is a yawning gulf.
But there are those who insist this is the way forward, in a situation
where the OpenBSD list has more life to it.
Let it go.
Enjoy what we have while it lasts.
Cheers!
> 

Re: Strange behavior of ifupdown package

[Ian Molton]

Michael, that was not a personal attack. I am in no doubt that you 
personally try to help.


The statistics for this list, however, are public record. And they are 
indeed of concern.


Like so many open source projects, Debian is clearly showing a loss of 
community, and whilst it continues to be a solid pillar of the internet 
generally, it appears to be increasingly maintained by a smaller 
(proportionally) group as time goes by, with less community engagement.

Re: Strange behavior of ifupdown package

[David Wright]

On Wed 24 Jul 2024 at 14:29:34 (+), MailGuard01 wrote:
> I am trying to complete the network configuration on Debian 12 using the 
> default
> installed `ifupdown` package. I have noticed some confusing behavior with
> `ifupdown` while following the manual pages.
> 
> Specifically, when I place `iface eno1 inet6 auto` with `privext 2` after 
> `iface
> inet eno1 dhcp` as instructed by the manual, the behavior becomes 
> unpredictable.
> Typically, the `privext` setting does not work as expected and has no effect
> when I initially boot into Debian 12 every time, even though the value of
> `/proc/sys/net/ipv6/conf/eno1/use_tempaddr` is correctly set to 2. No 
> temporary
> IPv6 address is assigned to the interface.
> 
> However, if I restart the networking service using `systemctl restart
> networking`, everything starts working correctly, and the temporary IPv6 
> address
> is assigned and displayed. Strangely, after multiple reboot of my Debian 12 
> PC,
> the temporary address occasionally appears without manually restarting the
> networking service. The behavior seems unstable and inconsistent.
> 
> When I accidentally placed `iface eno1 inet6 auto` with `privext 2` before
> `iface inet eno1 dhcp`, everything worked without any problem. All settings
> correctly applied, and there was no need to manually restart the networking
> service.
> 
> I have searched online but found nothing relevant, as if this is an isolated
> case. The manual also does not mention this behavior. I can reproduce this
> consistently from Debian 11 to Debian testing/unstable.
> 
> Is this behavior expected / considered a feature? Or is it an isolated case?
> Should I report this as a bug, and if so, where should I do that?

There is a bug report #960809, which seems related, and
might be worth adding your experience to, if you think so.

  https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=960809

> Additionally, it would be helpful to mention this behavior in the manual pages
> if it's expected, perhaps in a known limitations section. It took me days to
> solve this issue, and I was stumble upon the solution by sheer luck.

I did wonder whether any of the randomness wrt reboots might be
time-related, as skim reading the RFC, it seems to allow for storing
a history of addresses used, and periodic generation of new ones
rather than a fresh one every reboot.

Cheers,
David.

Re: Strange behavior of ifupdown package

[Michel Verdier]

On 2024-07-26, Ian Molton wrote:

> The attitude these days seems to be that 'if its not in bugzilla, no one
> cares'
>
> Seems like the Debian project is forgetting that it is a social endeavour, not
> a (increasingly small) handful of Devs vanity project...

I largely disagree with that. I was helped and try to help the same way
since 30 years :)

Strange behavior of ifupdown package

[Ian Molton]

Hi.

Sorry, i cant help with your specific problem.

Just didn't want you to feel alone...

I don't know whats becoming of Debian these days.

Users need to stick together,  but the traffic stats for these lists 
paint a bleak picture.


The attitude these days seems to be that 'if its not in bugzilla, no one 
cares'


Seems like the Debian project is forgetting that it is a social 
endeavour, not a (increasingly small) handful of Devs vanity project...

Strange behavior of ifupdown package

[MailGuard01]

Hi all,

I am trying to complete the network configuration on Debian 12 using the default
installed `ifupdown` package. I have noticed some confusing behavior with
`ifupdown` while following the manual pages.

Specifically, when I place `iface eno1 inet6 auto` with `privext 2` after `iface
inet eno1 dhcp` as instructed by the manual, the behavior becomes unpredictable.
Typically, the `privext` setting does not work as expected and has no effect
when I initially boot into Debian 12 every time, even though the value of
`/proc/sys/net/ipv6/conf/eno1/use_tempaddr` is correctly set to 2. No temporary
IPv6 address is assigned to the interface.

However, if I restart the networking service using `systemctl restart
networking`, everything starts working correctly, and the temporary IPv6 address
is assigned and displayed. Strangely, after multiple reboot of my Debian 12 PC,
the temporary address occasionally appears without manually restarting the
networking service. The behavior seems unstable and inconsistent.

When I accidentally placed `iface eno1 inet6 auto` with `privext 2` before
`iface inet eno1 dhcp`, everything worked without any problem. All settings
correctly applied, and there was no need to manually restart the networking
service.

I have searched online but found nothing relevant, as if this is an isolated
case. The manual also does not mention this behavior. I can reproduce this
consistently from Debian 11 to Debian testing/unstable.

Is this behavior expected / considered a feature? Or is it an isolated case?
Should I report this as a bug, and if so, where should I do that?

Additionally, it would be helpful to mention this behavior in the manual pages
if it's expected, perhaps in a known limitations section. It took me days to
solve this issue, and I was stumble upon the solution by sheer luck.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Best regards.

PS: I am not sure that I subscribed to the mailing list correctly as this is my
first time using one. Please forgive me if I did anything wrong. :>

Here are the full configuration I mentioned before. The default lo section is
omitted.

# privext will not work
allow-hotplug eno1
iface eno1 inet dhcp
iface eno1 inet6 auto
privext 2
# =

# privext works
allow-hotplug eno1
iface eno1 inet6 auto
privext 2
iface eno1 inet dhcp

Re: Strange Problem

[Stephen P. Molnar]

Thank you for the guidance, I really appreciate it.


On 06/29/2024 03:34 PM, David Christensen wrote:

On 6/29/24 10:01, Stephen P. Molnar wrote:



On 06/29/2024 12:28 PM, Darac Marjal wrote:


On 29/06/2024 15:13, Stephen P. Molnar wrote:
I have just restated by Xfce4 user on my Bookworm system and find 
that I can no longer resize some of the apps on the desktop and the 
icons in the upper right corner of the tool bar are missing.


Often, this is an indication that the window manager isn't running. 
For XFCE4, the window manager is called "xfwm4". Try pressing 
"Alt+F2" to bring up the launch dialog, enter "xfwm4" at the prompt 
and press enter.



This is only om my user directory, the root directory is still normal.

Don't run X sessions (read: don't run XFCE) as root.


I have not the faintest idea as to what might be going on and would 
greatly appreciate assistance.


Thanks in advance.


Well, the problem is back. I logged out and back in, and there it was!

I tried "Alt+F2" then "xfwm4" (without the quotes, of course) and got 
nothing.



Please power off your computer.  Then power on your computer. Then 
document every command or value you enter into the computer and every 
response by the computer.  If and when the computer does something 
other than what you expect, document what the computer did and what 
you expected it to do.  Research the proper terminology and use it.  
Then power off, power on, follow your document, and see if the issues 
are repeatable.  Then post your document.



David



--
Stephen P. Molnar, Ph.D.
https://insilicochemistry.net
(614)312-7528 (c)
Skype:  smolnar1

Re: Strange Problem

[David Christensen]

On 6/29/24 10:01, Stephen P. Molnar wrote:



On 06/29/2024 12:28 PM, Darac Marjal wrote:


On 29/06/2024 15:13, Stephen P. Molnar wrote:
I have just restated by Xfce4 user on my Bookworm system and find 
that I can no longer resize some of the apps on the desktop and the 
icons in the upper right corner of the tool bar are missing.


Often, this is an indication that the window manager isn't running. 
For XFCE4, the window manager is called "xfwm4". Try pressing "Alt+F2" 
to bring up the launch dialog, enter "xfwm4" at the prompt and press 
enter.



This is only om my user directory, the root directory is still normal.

Don't run X sessions (read: don't run XFCE) as root.


I have not the faintest idea as to what might be going on and would 
greatly appreciate assistance.


Thanks in advance.


Well, the problem is back. I logged out and back in, and there it was!

I tried "Alt+F2" then "xfwm4" (without the quotes, of course) and got 
nothing.



Please power off your computer.  Then power on your computer.  Then 
document every command or value you enter into the computer and every 
response by the computer.  If and when the computer does something other 
than what you expect, document what the computer did and what you 
expected it to do.  Research the proper terminology and use it.  Then 
power off, power on, follow your document, and see if the issues are 
repeatable.  Then post your document.



David

Re: Strange Problem

[Stephen P. Molnar]

On 06/29/2024 12:28 PM, Darac Marjal wrote:


On 29/06/2024 15:13, Stephen P. Molnar wrote:
I have just restated by Xfce4 user on my Bookworm system and find 
that I can no longer resize some of the apps on the desktop and the 
icons in the upper right corner of the tool bar are missing.


Often, this is an indication that the window manager isn't running. 
For XFCE4, the window manager is called "xfwm4". Try pressing "Alt+F2" 
to bring up the launch dialog, enter "xfwm4" at the prompt and press 
enter.



This is only om my user directory, the root directory is still normal.

Don't run X sessions (read: don't run XFCE) as root.


I have not the faintest idea as to what might be going on and would 
greatly appreciate assistance.


Thanks in advance.


Well, the problem is back. I logged out and back in, and there it was!

I tried "Alt+F2" then "xfwm4" (without the quotes, of course) and got 
nothing.


--
Stephen P. Molnar, Ph.D.
https://insilicochemistry.net
(614)312-7528 (c)
Skype:  smolnar1

Re: Strange Problem

[Darac Marjal]

On 29/06/2024 15:13, Stephen P. Molnar wrote:
I have just restated by Xfce4 user on my Bookworm system and find that 
I can no longer resize some of the apps on the desktop and the icons 
in the upper right corner of the tool bar are missing.


Often, this is an indication that the window manager isn't running. For 
XFCE4, the window manager is called "xfwm4". Try pressing "Alt+F2" to 
bring up the launch dialog, enter "xfwm4" at the prompt and press enter.



This is only om my user directory, the root directory is still normal.

Don't run X sessions (read: don't run XFCE) as root.


I have not the faintest idea as to what might be going on and would 
greatly appreciate assistance.


Thanks in advance.



OpenPGP_signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: Strange Problem

[Stephen P. Molnar]

On 06/29/2024 10:13 AM, Stephen P. Molnar wrote:
I have just restated by Xfce4 user on my Bookworm system and find that 
I can no longer resize some of the apps on the desktop and the icons 
in the upper right corner of the tool bar are missing. This is only om 
my user directory, the root directory is still normal.


I have not the faintest idea as to what might be going on and would 
greatly appreciate assistance.


Thanks in advance.


I don't know what I did, but the problem seems  to be gone.

--
Stephen P. Molnar, Ph.D.
https://insilicochemistry.net
(614)312-7528 (c)
Skype:  smolnar1

Strange Problem

[Stephen P. Molnar]

I have just restated by Xfce4 user on my Bookworm system and find that I 
can no longer resize some of the apps on the desktop and the icons in 
the upper right corner of the tool bar are missing. This is only om my 
user directory, the root directory is still normal.


I have not the faintest idea as to what might be going on and would 
greatly appreciate assistance.


Thanks in advance.

--
Stephen P. Molnar, Ph.D.
https://insilicochemistry.net
(614)312-7528 (c)
Skype:  smolnar1

Re: Strange difference between bullseye and bookworm.

[Tim Woodall]

On Tue, 28 May 2024, Tim Woodall wrote:


On Tue, 28 May 2024, Tim Woodall wrote:


I start a new user namespace as follows:
(The special bashrc is just because there are some things in my default
one that (expectedly) don't work in the lxc user namespace)




I then mount an overlayfs on top of that:
fuse-overlayfs -o lowerdir=lower,upperdir=overlay,workdir=work mount




And it appears that fuse-overlayfs is the problem. Downgrading to the
version from bullseye fixes:

root@bookworm19:~# apt-get install fuse-overlayfs=1.4.0-1
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree... Done
Reading state information... Done
The following packages will be DOWNGRADED:
 fuse-overlayfs


The problem only seems to trigger when lower is a squashfs mount...



And upgrading to the version in trixie (doesn't even need to be
backported, the package installs as is) also fixes.

Re: Strange difference between bullseye and bookworm.

[Tim Woodall]

On Tue, 28 May 2024, Tim Woodall wrote:


I start a new user namespace as follows:
(The special bashrc is just because there are some things in my default
one that (expectedly) don't work in the lxc user namespace)




I then mount an overlayfs on top of that:
fuse-overlayfs -o lowerdir=lower,upperdir=overlay,workdir=work mount




And it appears that fuse-overlayfs is the problem. Downgrading to the
version from bullseye fixes:

root@bookworm19:~# apt-get install fuse-overlayfs=1.4.0-1
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree... Done
Reading state information... Done
The following packages will be DOWNGRADED:
  fuse-overlayfs


The problem only seems to trigger when lower is a squashfs mount...

Strange difference between bullseye and bookworm.

[Tim Woodall]

I start a new user namespace as follows:
(The special bashrc is just because there are some things in my default
one that (expectedly) don't work in the lxc user namespace)

lxc-usernsexec -m b:0:689824:65536 -- /bin/bash --rcfile ~/.bashrc.lxc

Inside there I mount a squash fs image that includes the normal tools
for building packages

squashfuse bookworm.amd64.build-deb.sqfs lower

I then mount an overlayfs on top of that:
fuse-overlayfs -o lowerdir=lower,upperdir=overlay,workdir=work mount

I bind mount /dev/null into there
cd mount
touch dev/null
mount -o bind /dev/null dev/null

and then I chroot:
/sbin/chroot .

This all appears to be working perfectly on both bookworm and bullseye
hosts.

But in bookworm, apt-get update fails in a weird way:

root@dirac:/# apt-get update
Get:1 http://aptmirror.home.woodall.me.uk/local bookworm InRelease [18.9 kB]
Get:2 http://deb.debian.org/debian bookworm InRelease [151 kB]
Err:1 http://aptmirror.home.woodall.me.uk/local bookworm InRelease
  Couldn't execute /usr/bin/apt-key to check 
/var/lib/apt/lists/partial/aptmirror.home.woodall.me.uk_local_dists_bookworm_InRelease
Get:3 http://deb.debian.org/debian-security bookworm-security InRelease [48.0 
kB]
Err:2 http://deb.debian.org/debian bookworm InRelease
  Couldn't execute /usr/bin/apt-key to check 
/var/lib/apt/lists/partial/deb.debian.org_debian_dists_bookworm_InRelease
Err:3 http://deb.debian.org/debian-security bookworm-security InRelease
  Couldn't execute /usr/bin/apt-key to check 
/var/lib/apt/lists/partial/deb.debian.org_debian-security_dists_bookworm-security_InRelease

Notice that "Couldn't execute /usr/bin/apt-key"

Running exactly the same on a bullseye host and this "just works"

Running:
strace -f apt-get update |& less

[pid  6619] execve("/usr/bin/apt-key", ["/usr/bin/apt-key", "--quiet", "--readonly", "verify", "--status-fd", 
"3", "/tmp/apt.sig.xWh7oI", "/tmp/apt.data.JpfP2n"], 0x5566c9baafc0 /* 48 vars */) = -1 EOPNOTSUPP (Operation not supported)

This is my problem!

If I unpack the squashfs image but otherwise follow the same steps (i.e.
lower is a normal directory) then this works.

When I compare other things I see this in the working one:
[pid  6701] openat(AT_FDCWD, "/proc/self/fd", 
O_RDONLY|O_NONBLOCK|O_CLOEXEC|O_DIRECTORY) = -1 ENOENT (No such file or directory)

while I see this in the non-working one:
[pid  6701] openat(AT_FDCWD, "/proc/self/fd", 
O_RDONLY|O_NONBLOCK|O_CLOEXEC|O_DIRECTORY) = -1 EOPNOTSUPP (Operation not supported)

ENOENT is expected as I don't have /proc mounted in the namespace.

execve works for other tasks:
[pid  6693] execve("/usr/bin/dpkg", ["/usr/bin/dpkg", 
"--print-foreign-architectures"], 0x7ffe96e5ffa0 /* 42 vars */) = 0
works on both the bullseye and bookworm hosts, there's something special
about apt-key. Weirdly, copying dpkg over apt-key and I still get this
EOPNOTSUPP error. But deleting it completely and I get ENOENT from the
execve call.

Does anyone have any ideas what might be be wrong here, what I could try
to get this working again?

Tim.

Re: strange colors during boot

[fxkl47BF]

i'll have to see if i can borrow a vga monitor


On Tue, 30 Apr 2024, Marco Moock wrote:

> Am 30.04.2024 um 18:33:24 Uhr schrieb fxkl4...@protonmail.com:
>
>> i use a vga to hdmi converter
>
> Test it without it.
>
> --
> Gruß
> Marco
>
> Send unsolicited bulk mail to 1714494804mu...@cartoonies.org
>

Re: strange colors during boot

[Marco Moock]

Am 30.04.2024 um 18:33:24 Uhr schrieb fxkl4...@protonmail.com:

> i use a vga to hdmi converter

Test it without it.

-- 
Gruß
Marco

Send unsolicited bulk mail to 1714494804mu...@cartoonies.org

strange colors during boot

[fxkl47BF]

i set up bullseye on an old machine that has builtin vga display
i use a vga to hdmi converter
i don't know if that is relevant
during boot everything works ok
i see the grub screen and then initial ramdisk
they are black background and white foreground
it is, i think, when it finishes the initial ramdisk that the color changes
the foreground color stays white but the background changes
it changes to different colors each time i boot, green, purple, pink, ...
some combination are impossible to read
where should i look for the culprit

Re: Debian does not load zfs automatically at boot and strange messages displayed on the screen...

[DdB]

Am 30.04.2024 um 16:48 schrieb Mario Marietto:
> Probably this is not the proper method to do it ?
Done it in vm's and on bare metal many times. Never ran into your kind
of problems. :-(

Here is the guide, i suggest:
https://openzfs.github.io/openzfs-docs/Getting%20Started/Debian/index.html#installation

Debian does not load zfs automatically at boot and strange messages displayed on the screen...

[Mario Marietto]

Hello to everyone.

I've just installed Debian 12 (netinstall version with ssh server + web
server) as guest os on top of Windows 11 using qemu + whpx. These are the
parameters that I've used :


I:\OS\vms\qemu\qemu-system-x86_64.exe -machine q35 -accel whpx -cpu
kvm64,hv_relaxed,hv_time,hv_synic -m 8G -vga std -audiodev dsound,id=snd0
-device ich9-intel-hda -device hda-duplex,audiodev=snd0 -hda
"I:\Backup\Linux\Debian.img" -drive file=\\.\PhysicalDrive5 -drive
file=\\.\PhysicalDrive6 -drive file=\\.\PhysicalDrive8 -rtc base=localtime
-device usb-ehci,id=usb,bus=pcie.0,addr=0x3 -device usb-tablet -device
usb-kbd -smbios type=2 -nodefaults -netdev user,id=net0 -device
e1000,netdev=net0,id=net0,mac=52:54:00:11:22:33 -device ich9-ahci,id=sata
-bios "I:\OS\vms\qemu\OVMF_combined.fd"


Actually it has two problems :

1) I've added the module zfs to /etc/modules because I want to autoload zfs
as soon as Debian makes the booting,but it does not work. Probably this is
not the proper method to do it ?

2) As you can see on the attached picture,I see a lot of strange messages
on the screen ; I don't understand why they happen,but I would like to
suppress them.

[image: 2024-04-30 16 42 44.png]

-- 
Mario.

Re: Strange New Installation Behavior

[David Christensen]

On 4/22/24 06:00, Stephen P. Molnar wrote:
I am running Bookworm and cleaned up a couple of files too many 
resulting in a messed up Xfce Desktop. I decided that this would be a

 good time to reinstall the Bullseye.

I made a backup of my /home/comp directory using Deja-dup.

I downloaded and ran the 512 check sum on a copy of 
Debian-12.5.0-amd64-DVD-1.iso and ran the Graphical Install mode on

the 1.0 TD SSD on my Computer. The installation went smoothly without
any warning or error messages.

I logged in as root to set up the Desktop and, much to my surprise, 
found that my previous Desktop configuration was still there!!???

This was also the case when I logged in user!!!???

I have been using computers in my work since the 1960, the era of the
 Hollerith Card and tape drives and Linux since early days of
Slackware and the Red Hat Mother's Day Edition. Now I am not a
computer expert but a Research Chemist.  I have installed Linux OS's
many times and consider Linux my primary computational platform. I
have never encountered the situation and have no ideas as to what is
going on.

I have been runnind Debian since Etch.

I would appreciate some insight into what might be going on.

Thanks in advance.

Stephen P. Molnar, Ph.D. https://insilicochemistry.net (614)312-7528
(c) Skype: smolnar1



On 4/22/24 09:34, Stephen P. Molnar wrote:

I did not want to revert to Bullseye, but to reinstall to Bookworm.


I suggest that you buy a good 16 GB USB flash drive and install Debian 
12 with Xfce onto it.  Having a working live USB stick is very useful 
for low-level disk drive chores such as examining, backing up, testing, 
repairing, restoring, wiping, etc..  Use it to:


1.  Ensure that you have a good backup of your 1 TB SSD.

2.  Make additional backups or archives of all or part of your 1 TB SSD. 
 Note the mantra: "Data does not exist unless it exists in three places".


3.  Wipe the SSD so that the Debian installer will see a blank disk and 
respond accordingly when you later install Debian onto the SSD.



Regarding copying a home directory from one OS installation to another 
OS installation, please see my comments on another thread:


https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2024/04/msg00336.html


Once you have logged in to your new account on your fresh install, I 
suggest that you restore your /home/comp backup to a subdirectory and 
manually copy/ move/ edit/ merge files and directories from the restore 
subdirectory into your fresh home directory.  Be very careful not to 
damage or delete anything needed by your fresh desktop or applications.



David

Re: Strange New Installation Behavior

[Stephen P. Molnar]

On 04/22/2024 11:03 AM, debian-u...@howorth.org.uk wrote:

Michael Kjörling <2695bd53d...@ewoof.net> wrote:

On 22 Apr 2024 09:00 -0400, from s.mol...@sbcglobal.net (Stephen P.
Molnar):

I downloaded and ran the 512 check sum on a copy of
Debian-12.5.0-amd64-DVD-1.iso and ran the Graphical Install mode on
the 1.0 TD SSD on my Computer. The installation went smoothly
without any warning or error messages.

I logged in as root to set up the Desktop and, much to my surprise,
found that my previous Desktop configuration was still there!!???
This was also the case when I logged in user!!!???

It sounds to me like you intended to do a clean reinstall, but the
obvious question given the observed behavior is: did you actually do
that? For example, did you actually reformat (create file systems
anew)?

My guess would be that you installed _on top of_ the previous
installation rather than wiping and replacing it; so I'd start with
seeing if that hypothesis can be ruled out. An easy way might be to
check /var/cache/apt/archives and look for old linux-image .deb files.
If it's a freshly installed system, there should only be one or two,
likely at 6.1.0-20 for Bookworm. If you see any kernel older than
6.1.0-18, those are remnants from a previous installation (Debian 12.5
shipped with kernel ABI 6.1.0-18
.)

He said he wanted to revert to Bullseye rather than Bookworm, so it's
to be expected that there will be older kernels, if that's really what
he meant and what he did. But as you say, without a clear statement of
the intent and the actions taken it's difficult to be sure.


I did not want to revert to Bullseye, but to reinstall to Bookworm.

--
Stephen P. Molnar, Ph.D.
https://insilicochemistry.net
(614)312-7528 (c)
Skype:  smolnar1

Re: Strange New Installation Behavior

[Michael Kjörling]

On 22 Apr 2024 16:03 +0100, from debian-u...@howorth.org.uk:
> He said he wanted to revert to Bullseye rather than Bookworm, so it's
> to be expected that there will be older kernels, if that's really what
> he meant and what he did. But as you say, without a clear statement of
> the intent and the actions taken it's difficult to be sure.

You're right. Except the reference to a Debian 12 ISO would definitely
be Bookworm, where 12.5 is current, so that part checks out.

At this point I'm guessing that the reference to Bullseye is a
mistake.

Hopefully it'll be a while before we have three consecutive releases
with codenames all beginning with the same letter (Buster, Bullseye,
Bookworm). I'm probably not the only one who's got them mixed up on
occasion. Bookworm / Trixie / Forky should be easier to keep apart.
Looking at Wikipedia's summary table it doesn't look like there has
otherwise been any _two_ consecutive releases (ignoring Sid) where the
codenames began with the same letter, much less three.

-- 
Michael Kjörling 🔗 https://michael.kjorling.se
“Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?”

Re: Strange New Installation Behavior

[debian-user]

Michael Kjörling <2695bd53d...@ewoof.net> wrote:
> On 22 Apr 2024 09:00 -0400, from s.mol...@sbcglobal.net (Stephen P.
> Molnar):
> > I downloaded and ran the 512 check sum on a copy of
> > Debian-12.5.0-amd64-DVD-1.iso and ran the Graphical Install mode on
> > the 1.0 TD SSD on my Computer. The installation went smoothly
> > without any warning or error messages.
> > 
> > I logged in as root to set up the Desktop and, much to my surprise,
> > found that my previous Desktop configuration was still there!!???
> > This was also the case when I logged in user!!!???  
> 
> It sounds to me like you intended to do a clean reinstall, but the
> obvious question given the observed behavior is: did you actually do
> that? For example, did you actually reformat (create file systems
> anew)?
> 
> My guess would be that you installed _on top of_ the previous
> installation rather than wiping and replacing it; so I'd start with
> seeing if that hypothesis can be ruled out. An easy way might be to
> check /var/cache/apt/archives and look for old linux-image .deb files.
> If it's a freshly installed system, there should only be one or two,
> likely at 6.1.0-20 for Bookworm. If you see any kernel older than
> 6.1.0-18, those are remnants from a previous installation (Debian 12.5
> shipped with kernel ABI 6.1.0-18
> .)

He said he wanted to revert to Bullseye rather than Bookworm, so it's
to be expected that there will be older kernels, if that's really what
he meant and what he did. But as you say, without a clear statement of
the intent and the actions taken it's difficult to be sure.

Re: Strange New Installation Behavior

[Michael Kjörling]

On 22 Apr 2024 09:00 -0400, from s.mol...@sbcglobal.net (Stephen P. Molnar):
> I downloaded and ran the 512 check sum on a copy of
> Debian-12.5.0-amd64-DVD-1.iso and ran the Graphical Install mode on the 1.0
> TD SSD on my Computer. The installation went smoothly without any warning or
> error messages.
> 
> I logged in as root to set up the Desktop and, much to my surprise, found
> that my previous Desktop configuration was still there!!??? This was also
> the case when I logged in user!!!???

It sounds to me like you intended to do a clean reinstall, but the
obvious question given the observed behavior is: did you actually do
that? For example, did you actually reformat (create file systems
anew)?

My guess would be that you installed _on top of_ the previous
installation rather than wiping and replacing it; so I'd start with
seeing if that hypothesis can be ruled out. An easy way might be to
check /var/cache/apt/archives and look for old linux-image .deb files.
If it's a freshly installed system, there should only be one or two,
likely at 6.1.0-20 for Bookworm. If you see any kernel older than
6.1.0-18, those are remnants from a previous installation (Debian 12.5
shipped with kernel ABI 6.1.0-18 .)

-- 
Michael Kjörling 🔗 https://michael.kjorling.se
“Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?”

Strange New Installation Behavior

[Stephen P. Molnar]

I am running Bookworm and cleaned up a couple of files too many 
resulting in a messed up Xfce Desktop. I decided that this would be a 
good time to reinstall the Bullseye.


I made a backup of my /home/comp directory using Deja-dup.

I downloaded and ran the 512 check sum on a copy of 
Debian-12.5.0-amd64-DVD-1.iso and ran the Graphical Install mode on the 
1.0 TD SSD on my Computer. The installation went smoothly without any 
warning or error messages.


I logged in as root to set up the Desktop and, much to my surprise, 
found that my previous Desktop configuration was still there!!??? This 
was also the case when I logged in user!!!???


I have been using computers in my work since the 1960, the era of the 
Hollerith Card and tape drives and Linux since early days of Slackware 
and the Red Hat Mother's Day Edition. Now I am not a computer expert but 
a Research Chemist.  I have installed Linux OS's many times and consider 
Linux my primary computational platform. I have never encountered the 
situation and have no ideas as to what is going on.


I have been runnind Debian since Etch.

I would appreciate some insight into what might be going on.

Thanks in advance.

Stephen P. Molnar, Ph.D. https://insilicochemistry.net (614)312-7528 (c) 
Skype: smolnar1

Re: strange time problem with bullseye

[Roy J. Tellason, Sr.]

On Thursday 07 March 2024 02:44:42 pm Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 07, 2024 at 02:33:05PM -0500, Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote:
> > On Thursday 07 March 2024 09:02:44 am Teemu Likonen wrote:
> > > systemctl status systemd-timesyncd.service
> > 
> > This got me some interesting results:
> > 
> > ● systemd-timesyncd.service - Network Time Synchronization
> >Loaded: loaded (/lib/systemd/system/systemd-timesyncd.service; enabled; 
> > vendor preset: enabled)
> >   Drop-In: /lib/systemd/system/systemd-timesyncd.service.d
> >└─disable-with-time-daemon.conf
> >Active: inactive (dead)
> > Condition: start condition failed at Wed 2024-02-14 16:17:31 EST; 3 weeks 0 
> > days ago
> >└─ ConditionFileIsExecutable=!/usr/sbin/VBoxService was not met
> >  Docs: man:systemd-timesyncd.service(8)
> > 
> > Hmm.
> 
> Are you running that on a virtualbox client, or a virtualbox host?

That was on the host.  The client is running an older version of Slackware.
 
> In any case, you might find it interesting to read the unit file in
> question ("systemctl cat systemd-timesyncd.service").  It looks like
> you've got one of the slightly older kind, where the service is always
> installed, but is prevented from running if any of several different
> programs is found.
 
Yes,  I'm running older software here.  I did that and see those listed near 
the end of it.  The system does seem to do okay with keeping the right time,  
though,  for the most part.  The only rough spot was the RTC was way off,  but 
that's now been fixed... 


-- 
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space,  a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed.  --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James 
M Dakin

Re: strange time problem with bullseye/buster

[Max Nikulin]

On 08/03/2024 07:17, gene heskett wrote:

I have NDI how to extract chrony's logs from journalctl.


- man journalctl,
- docs listed on the systemd web site.

Re: strange time problem with bullseye/buster

[gene heskett]

On 3/7/24 21:30, David Wright wrote:

On Thu 07 Mar 2024 at 19:17:02 (-0500), gene heskett wrote:

On 3/7/24 12:19, David Wright wrote:

On Thu 07 Mar 2024 at 11:29:47 (-0500), gene heskett wrote:

On 3/7/24 10:59, Greg Wooledge wrote:



You should be able to verify that the systemd-timesyncd package is
removed.




In some older versions of Debian, systemd-timesyncd was part of the
systemd package, and was always installed, even if you installed ntp
or chrony.  In these versions, the systemd unit file for timesync
had checks for the existence of the binaries belonging to ntp, chrony
and openntpd, and would prevent timesync from running if any of those
was found.

I don't remember which version did which thing.

And of course, if you are not actually running Debian, then all bets are
off.  You're on your own with Armbian, Raspbian, etc.


and because the printer is arm stuff, its old armbian buster vintage.
mks@mkspi:/etc/init.d$ sudo apt purge systemd-timesyncd
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree
Reading state information... Done
Package 'systemd-timesyncd' is not installed, so not removed
0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 2 not upgraded.
mks@mkspi:/etc/init.d$
yet timedatectl is still there and shows:
mks@mkspi:/etc/init.d$ timedatectl
 Local time: Thu 2024-03-07 11:15:53 EST
 Universal time: Thu 2024-03-07 16:15:53 UTC
   RTC time: Thu 2024-03-07 11:04:39
  Time zone: America/New_York (EST, -0500)
System clock synchronized: no
NTP service: inactive
RTC in local TZ: no
mks@mkspi:/etc/init.d$
And the local time shown above is correct to the second.


Debian's buster's systemd (241) has timesyncd built-in, so you may
find that   ls -l /lib/systemd/systemd-timesyncd still finds it.

The output from timedatectl is worrying. I would monitor chrony and
check its logs to see if it it's doing anything. After all, you had
ntpsec running until a "moment" ago, so you'd hardly expect the clock
to be wrong by now.


At the instant I removed ntpsec and minute later whem I re-installed
chrony, the time on that printer was around 20 hours stale. By about a
minute after chrony started, which the install did, time was
synchronized.

And still is. Somehow, it resurrected the customized
/etc/chrony/chrony.conf which pointed it at this machines ntpsec
server. So I didn't have to re-invent that wheel. It just Worked.
Memory in the u-sd card? IDK.

I have NDI how to extract chrony's logs from journalctl.


You could run these commands as an ordinary user instead:

   $ chronyc sources
   $ chronyc sourcestats
   $ chronyc tracking

which will give you an idea of what it is doing.

Cheers,
David.

.

mks@mkspi:/etc/init.d$ chronyc tracking
Reference ID: C0A84703 (coyote.coyote.den)
Stratum : 4
Ref time (UTC)  : Fri Mar 08 03:23:48 2024
System time : 0.06175 seconds slow of NTP time
Last offset : -0.05491 seconds
RMS offset  : 0.07778 seconds
Frequency   : 6.590 ppm slow
Residual freq   : -0.002 ppm
Skew: 0.036 ppm
Root delay  : 0.034696314 seconds
Root dispersion : 0.054448538 seconds
Update interval : 64.5 seconds
Leap status : Normal

Looks good to me. ;o)>

Thanks David. Take care & stay well.

Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: strange time problem with bullseye/buster

[David Wright]

On Thu 07 Mar 2024 at 19:17:02 (-0500), gene heskett wrote:
> On 3/7/24 12:19, David Wright wrote:
> > On Thu 07 Mar 2024 at 11:29:47 (-0500), gene heskett wrote:
> > > On 3/7/24 10:59, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > 
> > > > You should be able to verify that the systemd-timesyncd package is
> > > > removed.
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > > In some older versions of Debian, systemd-timesyncd was part of the
> > > > systemd package, and was always installed, even if you installed ntp
> > > > or chrony.  In these versions, the systemd unit file for timesync
> > > > had checks for the existence of the binaries belonging to ntp, chrony
> > > > and openntpd, and would prevent timesync from running if any of those
> > > > was found.
> > > > 
> > > > I don't remember which version did which thing.
> > > > 
> > > > And of course, if you are not actually running Debian, then all bets are
> > > > off.  You're on your own with Armbian, Raspbian, etc.
> > > > 
> > > and because the printer is arm stuff, its old armbian buster vintage.
> > > mks@mkspi:/etc/init.d$ sudo apt purge systemd-timesyncd
> > > Reading package lists... Done
> > > Building dependency tree
> > > Reading state information... Done
> > > Package 'systemd-timesyncd' is not installed, so not removed
> > > 0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 2 not upgraded.
> > > mks@mkspi:/etc/init.d$
> > > yet timedatectl is still there and shows:
> > > mks@mkspi:/etc/init.d$ timedatectl
> > > Local time: Thu 2024-03-07 11:15:53 EST
> > > Universal time: Thu 2024-03-07 16:15:53 UTC
> > >   RTC time: Thu 2024-03-07 11:04:39
> > >  Time zone: America/New_York (EST, -0500)
> > > System clock synchronized: no
> > >NTP service: inactive
> > >RTC in local TZ: no
> > > mks@mkspi:/etc/init.d$
> > > And the local time shown above is correct to the second.
> > 
> > Debian's buster's systemd (241) has timesyncd built-in, so you may
> > find that   ls -l /lib/systemd/systemd-timesyncd still finds it.
> > 
> > The output from timedatectl is worrying. I would monitor chrony and
> > check its logs to see if it it's doing anything. After all, you had
> > ntpsec running until a "moment" ago, so you'd hardly expect the clock
> > to be wrong by now.
> 
> At the instant I removed ntpsec and minute later whem I re-installed
> chrony, the time on that printer was around 20 hours stale. By about a
> minute after chrony started, which the install did, time was
> synchronized.
> 
> And still is. Somehow, it resurrected the customized
> /etc/chrony/chrony.conf which pointed it at this machines ntpsec
> server. So I didn't have to re-invent that wheel. It just Worked.
> Memory in the u-sd card? IDK.
> 
> I have NDI how to extract chrony's logs from journalctl.

You could run these commands as an ordinary user instead:

  $ chronyc sources
  $ chronyc sourcestats
  $ chronyc tracking

which will give you an idea of what it is doing.

Cheers,
David.

Re: strange time problem with bullseye

[gene heskett]

On 3/7/24 14:16, Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote:

On Wednesday 06 March 2024 12:42:12 pm Greg Wooledge wrote:

How do I get the RTC to agree with the right time?


"hwclock -w" to copy the system clock to the hardware clock (RTC).  This
should also be done during shutdown, but it doesn't hurt to do it now.


True, but needs a sudo in front if it in my case on that armbian buster 
machine.
  
That seemed to do what I needed.


I don't ordinarily shut this machine down for the most part.  Every once in a while all 
of my swap partition gets filled up,  and then there's this continuous hard drive 
activity that I'm assuming is what they mean by "thrashing". The only option at 
that point is to get its attention with the power switch.  And then I need to go through 
a whole routing with bringing up what I had going,  including re-starting virtualbox and 
the stuff that runs in it,  etc.  If I'm lucky then I can get back the windows I had 
going before,  sometimes I'm not so lucky.  A system monitor I run on desktop 4 always 
comes up,  but on the wrong desktop and I have to move it.

The "eat all available memory" culprit seems to be firefox.  I just need to 
look at that system monitor every once in a while and when things start getting excessive 
shut firefox down and restart it.  Then I don't have the problem...

I'm not sure if I have ntp or something else running here.  (Looking...)  I 
don't see it in my process list.




Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: strange time problem with bullseye/buster

[gene heskett]

On 3/7/24 12:19, David Wright wrote:

On Thu 07 Mar 2024 at 11:29:47 (-0500), gene heskett wrote:

On 3/7/24 10:59, Greg Wooledge wrote:



You should be able to verify that the systemd-timesyncd package is
removed.




In some older versions of Debian, systemd-timesyncd was part of the
systemd package, and was always installed, even if you installed ntp
or chrony.  In these versions, the systemd unit file for timesync
had checks for the existence of the binaries belonging to ntp, chrony
and openntpd, and would prevent timesync from running if any of those
was found.

I don't remember which version did which thing.

And of course, if you are not actually running Debian, then all bets are
off.  You're on your own with Armbian, Raspbian, etc.


and because the printer is arm stuff, its old armbian buster vintage.
mks@mkspi:/etc/init.d$ sudo apt purge systemd-timesyncd
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree
Reading state information... Done
Package 'systemd-timesyncd' is not installed, so not removed
0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 2 not upgraded.
mks@mkspi:/etc/init.d$
yet timedatectl is still there and shows:
mks@mkspi:/etc/init.d$ timedatectl
Local time: Thu 2024-03-07 11:15:53 EST
Universal time: Thu 2024-03-07 16:15:53 UTC
  RTC time: Thu 2024-03-07 11:04:39
 Time zone: America/New_York (EST, -0500)
System clock synchronized: no
   NTP service: inactive
   RTC in local TZ: no
mks@mkspi:/etc/init.d$
And the local time shown above is correct to the second.


Debian's buster's systemd (241) has timesyncd built-in, so you may
find that   ls -l /lib/systemd/systemd-timesyncd still finds it.

The output from timedatectl is worrying. I would monitor chrony and
check its logs to see if it it's doing anything. After all, you had
ntpsec running until a "moment" ago, so you'd hardly expect the clock
to be wrong by now.


At the instant I removed ntpsec and minute later whem I re-installed 
chrony, the time on that printer was around 20 hours stale. By about a 
minute after chrony started, which the install did, time was synchronized.


And still is. Somehow, it resurrected the customized
/etc/chrony/chrony.conf which pointed it at this machines ntpsec server. 
So I didn't have to re-invent that wheel. It just Worked. Memory in the 
u-sd card? IDK.


I have NDI how to extract chrony's logs from journalctl.


I tried installing chrony in 2017 (jessie), and it appeared unable
to slew the clock five seconds in two days of interrupted running.

Cheers,
David.


Thank you David, take care & stay well.

Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: strange time problem with bullseye

[Greg Wooledge]

On Thu, Mar 07, 2024 at 02:33:05PM -0500, Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote:
> On Thursday 07 March 2024 09:02:44 am Teemu Likonen wrote:
> > systemctl status systemd-timesyncd.service
> 
> This got me some interesting results:
> 
> ● systemd-timesyncd.service - Network Time Synchronization
>Loaded: loaded (/lib/systemd/system/systemd-timesyncd.service; enabled; 
> vendor preset: enabled)
>   Drop-In: /lib/systemd/system/systemd-timesyncd.service.d
>└─disable-with-time-daemon.conf
>Active: inactive (dead)
> Condition: start condition failed at Wed 2024-02-14 16:17:31 EST; 3 weeks 0 
> days ago
>└─ ConditionFileIsExecutable=!/usr/sbin/VBoxService was not met
>  Docs: man:systemd-timesyncd.service(8)
> 
> Hmm.

Are you running that on a virtualbox client, or a virtualbox host?

In any case, you might find it interesting to read the unit file in
question ("systemctl cat systemd-timesyncd.service").  It looks like
you've got one of the slightly older kind, where the service is always
installed, but is prevented from running if any of several different
programs is found.

Re: strange time problem with bullseye

[Dan Ritter]

Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote: 
> I don't ordinarily shut this machine down for the most part.  Every once in a 
> while all of my swap partition gets filled up,  and then there's this 
> continuous hard drive activity that I'm assuming is what they mean by 
> "thrashing". The only option at that point is to get its attention with the 
> power switch.  And then I need to go through a whole routing with bringing up 
> what I had going,  including re-starting virtualbox and the stuff that runs 
> in it,  etc.  If I'm lucky then I can get back the windows I had going 
> before,  sometimes I'm not so lucky.  A system monitor I run on desktop 4 
> always comes up,  but on the wrong desktop and I have to move it.
> 
> The "eat all available memory" culprit seems to be firefox.  I just need to 
> look at that system monitor every once in a while and when things start 
> getting excessive shut firefox down and restart it.  Then I don't have the 
> problem...

There's a kernel feature called the OOM-killer (out of memory)
which is supposed to detect when you are running out of memory
and select a process to kill.

Did you turn it off? It would be a setting in /etc/sysctl.conf
or /etc/sysctl.d/*

If not, perhaps you have an excessive amount of slow swap for it to be happy?

 
> I'm not sure if I have ntp or something else running here.  (Looking...)  I 
> don't see it in my process list.

Other likely candidates are systemd-timesync and chrony.

-dsr-

Re: strange time problem with bullseye

[Roy J. Tellason, Sr.]

On Thursday 07 March 2024 09:02:44 am Teemu Likonen wrote:
> systemctl status systemd-timesyncd.service

This got me some interesting results:

● systemd-timesyncd.service - Network Time Synchronization
   Loaded: loaded (/lib/systemd/system/systemd-timesyncd.service; enabled; 
vendor preset: enabled)
  Drop-In: /lib/systemd/system/systemd-timesyncd.service.d
   └─disable-with-time-daemon.conf
   Active: inactive (dead)
Condition: start condition failed at Wed 2024-02-14 16:17:31 EST; 3 weeks 0 
days ago
   └─ ConditionFileIsExecutable=!/usr/sbin/VBoxService was not met
 Docs: man:systemd-timesyncd.service(8)

Hmm.

-- 
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space,  a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed.  --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James 
M Dakin

Re: strange time problem with bullseye

[Roy J. Tellason, Sr.]

On Wednesday 06 March 2024 12:42:12 pm Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > How do I get the RTC to agree with the right time?
> 
> "hwclock -w" to copy the system clock to the hardware clock (RTC).  This
> should also be done during shutdown, but it doesn't hurt to do it now.
 
That seemed to do what I needed.

I don't ordinarily shut this machine down for the most part.  Every once in a 
while all of my swap partition gets filled up,  and then there's this 
continuous hard drive activity that I'm assuming is what they mean by 
"thrashing". The only option at that point is to get its attention with the 
power switch.  And then I need to go through a whole routing with bringing up 
what I had going,  including re-starting virtualbox and the stuff that runs in 
it,  etc.  If I'm lucky then I can get back the windows I had going before,  
sometimes I'm not so lucky.  A system monitor I run on desktop 4 always comes 
up,  but on the wrong desktop and I have to move it.

The "eat all available memory" culprit seems to be firefox.  I just need to 
look at that system monitor every once in a while and when things start getting 
excessive shut firefox down and restart it.  Then I don't have the problem...

I'm not sure if I have ntp or something else running here.  (Looking...)  I 
don't see it in my process list.


-- 
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space,  a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed.  --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James 
M Dakin

Re: strange time problem with bullseye/buster

[David Wright]

On Thu 07 Mar 2024 at 11:29:47 (-0500), gene heskett wrote:
> On 3/7/24 10:59, Greg Wooledge wrote:

> > You should be able to verify that the systemd-timesyncd package is
> > removed.
> > 
> 
> > In some older versions of Debian, systemd-timesyncd was part of the
> > systemd package, and was always installed, even if you installed ntp
> > or chrony.  In these versions, the systemd unit file for timesync
> > had checks for the existence of the binaries belonging to ntp, chrony
> > and openntpd, and would prevent timesync from running if any of those
> > was found.
> > 
> > I don't remember which version did which thing.
> > 
> > And of course, if you are not actually running Debian, then all bets are
> > off.  You're on your own with Armbian, Raspbian, etc.
> > 
> and because the printer is arm stuff, its old armbian buster vintage.
> mks@mkspi:/etc/init.d$ sudo apt purge systemd-timesyncd
> Reading package lists... Done
> Building dependency tree
> Reading state information... Done
> Package 'systemd-timesyncd' is not installed, so not removed
> 0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 2 not upgraded.
> mks@mkspi:/etc/init.d$
> yet timedatectl is still there and shows:
> mks@mkspi:/etc/init.d$ timedatectl
>Local time: Thu 2024-03-07 11:15:53 EST
>Universal time: Thu 2024-03-07 16:15:53 UTC
>  RTC time: Thu 2024-03-07 11:04:39
> Time zone: America/New_York (EST, -0500)
> System clock synchronized: no
>   NTP service: inactive
>   RTC in local TZ: no
> mks@mkspi:/etc/init.d$
> And the local time shown above is correct to the second.

Debian's buster's systemd (241) has timesyncd built-in, so you may
find that   ls -l /lib/systemd/systemd-timesyncd still finds it.

The output from timedatectl is worrying. I would monitor chrony and
check its logs to see if it it's doing anything. After all, you had
ntpsec running until a "moment" ago, so you'd hardly expect the clock
to be wrong by now.

I tried installing chrony in 2017 (jessie), and it appeared unable
to slew the clock five seconds in two days of interrupted running.

Cheers,
David.

Re: strange time problem with bullseye

[gene heskett]

On 3/7/24 11:18, Jeffrey Walton wrote:

On Thu, Mar 7, 2024 at 8:44 AM  wrote:


On Thu, Mar 07, 2024 at 08:31:16AM -0500, gene heskett wrote:

[...]
Now, how do I assure timedatectl stays stopped on a reboot? [...]

I'll have to leave this to others more fluent in systemd-ish.


Mask the systemd-timesyncd service. Masking is the service a permanent effect.


it appears its not installed. It can't be found to purge it. That would 
explain why it didn't work.


If you just stop or disable the service, then the service will either
be started on the next reboot, or it can be manually started. Since
you want to permanently disable the service, you have to mask it.

Jeff
.

Thanks Jeff.
Take care & stay well.

Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: strange time problem with bullseye

[gene heskett]

On 3/7/24 10:59, Greg Wooledge wrote:

On Thu, Mar 07, 2024 at 08:31:16AM -0500, gene heskett wrote:

So I purged ntpsec and re-installed chrony which I had done once before with
no luck but this time timedatectl was stopped and it worked!

Now, how do I assure timedatectl stays stopped on a reboot?


Which version of Debian is this?  I'm guessing it's fairly recent,
because ntpsec is fairly recent.

In the most recent version or two, systemd-timesyncd is a separate
package, and it cannot coexist with chrony (they both provide the
"time-daemon" virtual package).  So, if this is Debian 12 (maybe 11
also, dunno about older), then when you installed either ntpsec or
chrony, it should have removed the systemd-timesyncd package.

You should be able to verify that the systemd-timesyncd package is
removed.




In some older versions of Debian, systemd-timesyncd was part of the
systemd package, and was always installed, even if you installed ntp
or chrony.  In these versions, the systemd unit file for timesync
had checks for the existence of the binaries belonging to ntp, chrony
and openntpd, and would prevent timesync from running if any of those
was found.

I don't remember which version did which thing.

And of course, if you are not actually running Debian, then all bets are
off.  You're on your own with Armbian, Raspbian, etc.

.

and because the printer is arm stuff, its old armbian buster vintage.
mks@mkspi:/etc/init.d$ sudo apt purge systemd-timesyncd
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree
Reading state information... Done
Package 'systemd-timesyncd' is not installed, so not removed
0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 2 not upgraded.
mks@mkspi:/etc/init.d$
yet timedatectl is still there and shows:
mks@mkspi:/etc/init.d$ timedatectl
   Local time: Thu 2024-03-07 11:15:53 EST
   Universal time: Thu 2024-03-07 16:15:53 UTC
 RTC time: Thu 2024-03-07 11:04:39
Time zone: America/New_York (EST, -0500)
System clock synchronized: no
  NTP service: inactive
  RTC in local TZ: no
mks@mkspi:/etc/init.d$
And the local time shown above is correct to the second.

Thanks Greg, take care & stay well.

Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: strange time problem with bullseye

[Jeffrey Walton]

On Thu, Mar 7, 2024 at 8:44 AM  wrote:
>
> On Thu, Mar 07, 2024 at 08:31:16AM -0500, gene heskett wrote:
>
> [...]
> Now, how do I assure timedatectl stays stopped on a reboot? [...]
>
> I'll have to leave this to others more fluent in systemd-ish.

Mask the systemd-timesyncd service. Masking is the service a permanent effect.

If you just stop or disable the service, then the service will either
be started on the next reboot, or it can be manually started. Since
you want to permanently disable the service, you have to mask it.

Jeff

Re: strange time problem with bullseye

[Greg Wooledge]

On Thu, Mar 07, 2024 at 08:31:16AM -0500, gene heskett wrote:
> So I purged ntpsec and re-installed chrony which I had done once before with
> no luck but this time timedatectl was stopped and it worked!
> 
> Now, how do I assure timedatectl stays stopped on a reboot?

Which version of Debian is this?  I'm guessing it's fairly recent,
because ntpsec is fairly recent.

In the most recent version or two, systemd-timesyncd is a separate
package, and it cannot coexist with chrony (they both provide the
"time-daemon" virtual package).  So, if this is Debian 12 (maybe 11
also, dunno about older), then when you installed either ntpsec or
chrony, it should have removed the systemd-timesyncd package.

You should be able to verify that the systemd-timesyncd package is
removed.

In some older versions of Debian, systemd-timesyncd was part of the
systemd package, and was always installed, even if you installed ntp
or chrony.  In these versions, the systemd unit file for timesync
had checks for the existence of the binaries belonging to ntp, chrony
and openntpd, and would prevent timesync from running if any of those
was found.

I don't remember which version did which thing.

And of course, if you are not actually running Debian, then all bets are
off.  You're on your own with Armbian, Raspbian, etc.

Re: strange time problem with bullseye

[Teemu Likonen]

* 2024-03-07 08:31:16-0500, gene heskett wrote:

> So I purged ntpsec and re-installed chrony which I had done once before 
> with no luck but this time timedatectl was stopped and it worked!
>
> Now, how do I assure timedatectl stays stopped on a reboot? systemd's
> docs are positively opaque about that even if they do go on for
> megabytes.

"timedatectl" is a command for configuring and showing various time
settings. You probably mean: how to stop Systemd's NTP service. See "man
timedatectl" or "timedatectl -h". Look for subcommand "set-ntp".

sudo timedatectl set-ntp false

See the current state with just "timedatectl" command. What happens
behind the surface is enabling/disabling service
systemd-timesyncd.service. You can check its status:

systemctl status systemd-timesyncd.service

-- 
/// Teemu Likonen - .-.. https://www.iki.fi/tlikonen/
// OpenPGP: 6965F03973F0D4CA22B9410F0F2CAE0E07608462


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: strange time problem with bullseye

[tomas]

On Thu, Mar 07, 2024 at 08:31:16AM -0500, gene heskett wrote:

[...]

> So I purged ntpsec and re-installed chrony which I had done once before with
> no luck but this time timedatectl was stopped and it worked!

great :-)

> Now, how do I assure timedatectl stays stopped on a reboot? [...]

I'll have to leave this to others more fluent in systemd-ish.

Cheers
-- 
t


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: strange time problem with bullseye

[gene heskett]

On 3/7/24 00:22, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

On Wed, Mar 06, 2024 at 08:06:15PM -0600, John Hasler wrote:

Look at the chronyd settime command and the chrony.conf makestep
directive.  These are intended for your situation.


This from man(8) ntpd:

  -g, --panicgate
Allow the first adjustment to be Big.  This option may appear an
unlimited number of times.

Normally, ntpd exits with a message to the system log if the off‐
set exceeds the panic threshold, which is 1000 s by default. This
option allows the time to be set to any value without restric‐
tion; however, this can happen only once. If the threshold is ex‐
ceeded after that, ntpd will exit with a message to the system
log. This option can be used with the -q and -x options.  See the
tinker configuration file directive for other options.

  -G, --force-step-once
Step any initial offset correction..
[...]

Cheers


So I purged ntpsec and re-installed chrony which I had done once before 
with no luck but this time timedatectl was stopped and it worked!


Now, how do I assure timedatectl stays stopped on a reboot? systemd's 
docs are positively opaque about that even if they do go on for 
megabytes. Surprisingly the chrony.conf setting to use my own server 
setup on this machine making me a level 2 ntp server, magically re-appeared.


Seems like it should have a disable option to match the enable but 
playing 50 monkeys didn't find it.


Thanks take care & stay well Tomas.

Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: strange time problem with bullseye

[tomas]

On Wed, Mar 06, 2024 at 09:36:56PM -0500, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 06, 2024 at 08:33:37PM -0500, gene heskett wrote:
> > no place in the ntpsec docs, nor the chrony docs
> > does it show the ability to slam the current time into the SW clock on these
> > arm systems at bootup's first access time.
> 
> Traditionally, this was done by the ntpdate command, which was in the
> ntpdate package.

[...]

>-g, --panicgate

[...]

Heh. Great minds read alike :-)

But thanks for the historical background, which I didn't know.

Cheers
-- 
t


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: strange time problem with bullseye

[tomas]

On Wed, Mar 06, 2024 at 08:06:15PM -0600, John Hasler wrote:
> Look at the chronyd settime command and the chrony.conf makestep
> directive.  These are intended for your situation.

This from man(8) ntpd:

 -g, --panicgate
   Allow the first adjustment to be Big.  This option may appear an
   unlimited number of times.

   Normally, ntpd exits with a message to the system log if the off‐
   set exceeds the panic threshold, which is 1000 s by default. This
   option allows the time to be set to any value without restric‐
   tion; however, this can happen only once. If the threshold is ex‐
   ceeded after that, ntpd will exit with a message to the system
   log. This option can be used with the -q and -x options.  See the
   tinker configuration file directive for other options.

 -G, --force-step-once
   Step any initial offset correction..
   [...]

Cheers
-- 
t


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: strange time problem with bullseye

[Greg Wooledge]

On Wed, Mar 06, 2024 at 08:33:37PM -0500, gene heskett wrote:
> no place in the ntpsec docs, nor the chrony docs
> does it show the ability to slam the current time into the SW clock on these
> arm systems at bootup's first access time.

Traditionally, this was done by the ntpdate command, which was in the
ntpdate package.

On older Debian releases, you would install both of these (ntp and
ntpdate); ntpdate would run first, slamming the clock, and then ntp
would run second, to keep the clock in sync.

A few releases ago, ntpdate was deprecated, and its slamming functionality
was absorbed into the ntp package, as long as ntp is started with the -g
option.

   -g, --panicgate
   Allow the first adjustment to be big. This option may appear an
   unlimited number of times.

   Normally, ntpd exits with a message to the system log if the offset
   exceeds the panic threshold, which is 1000 s by default. This
   option allows the time to be set to any value without restriction;
   however, this can happen only once. If the threshold is exceeded
   after that, ntpd will exit with a message to the system log. This
   option can be used with the -q and -x options. See the tinker
   configuration file directive for other options.

With ntpsec replacing ntp in Debian 12, the same options apply.  By default,
Debian runs ntpsec with the -g option, to allow the clock to be slammed
at boot time.

hobbit:~$ ps -ef | grep ntpd
ntpsec   854   1  0 Feb17 ?00:01:17 /usr/sbin/ntpd -p 
/run/ntpd.pid -c /etc/ntpsec/ntp.conf -g -N -u ntpsec:ntpsec
greg  3947371138  0 21:34 pts/000:00:00 grep ntpd

Your claims that "no place in the ntpsec docs ... show the ability to
slam the current time" are simply false.

Re: strange time problem with bullseye

[John Hasler]

Look at the chronyd settime command and the chrony.conf makestep
directive.  These are intended for your situation.
-- 
John Hasler 
j...@sugarbit.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: strange time problem with bullseye

[gene heskett]

On 3/6/24 18:02, Greg Wooledge wrote:

On Wed, Mar 06, 2024 at 05:56:29PM -0500, gene heskett wrote:

On 3/6/24 12:42, Greg Wooledge wrote:

On Wed, Mar 06, 2024 at 12:31:46PM -0500, Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote:

  sudo timedatectl set-ntp true


But *don't* do that if you're using some other NTP program instead of
systemd-timesyncd.



Are you saying that both chrony and ntpsec, which are fully ntp
client/server ack the docs are worthless to timedatectl?


I'm saying "don't turn on systemd's NTP thing if you're using a different
NTP thing".

Roy's instructions failed to take into account that many of us are
already using a different NTP implementation, besides systemd's.


I can turn either off, but no place in the ntpsec docs, nor the chrony 
docs does it show the ability to slam the current time into the SW clock 
on these arm systems at bootup's first access time.  And the normal 
correction is maybe a second an hour so it its been turned off for a 
week, its another week out of time when turned back on. The whole thing 
never considered the no hwclock situation that exists in 99% of the arm 
world. I was hoping timedatectl had that ability but I see it says you 
must be synched first. The rpis's can do it, whats the secret recipe?


Thank Greg, take care & stay well.
Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: strange time problem with bullseye

[Greg Wooledge]

On Wed, Mar 06, 2024 at 05:56:29PM -0500, gene heskett wrote:
> On 3/6/24 12:42, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > On Wed, Mar 06, 2024 at 12:31:46PM -0500, Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote:
> > >  sudo timedatectl set-ntp true
> > 
> > But *don't* do that if you're using some other NTP program instead of
> > systemd-timesyncd.

> Are you saying that both chrony and ntpsec, which are fully ntp
> client/server ack the docs are worthless to timedatectl?

I'm saying "don't turn on systemd's NTP thing if you're using a different
NTP thing".

Roy's instructions failed to take into account that many of us are
already using a different NTP implementation, besides systemd's.

Re: strange time problem with bullseye

[gene heskett]

On 3/6/24 12:42, Greg Wooledge wrote:

On Wed, Mar 06, 2024 at 12:31:46PM -0500, Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote:

Mine shows:

   Local time: Wed 2024-03-06 12:09:44 EST
   Universal time: Wed 2024-03-06 17:09:44 UTC
 RTC time: Wed 2024-03-06 17:20:53
Time zone: America/New_York (EST, -0500)
  Network time on: yes
NTP synchronized: no
  RTC in local TZ: no

How do I get the RTC to agree with the right time?


"hwclock -w" to copy the system clock to the hardware clock (RTC).  This
should also be done during shutdown, but it doesn't hurt to do it now.


On Wed, Mar 06, 2024 at 07:36:11PM +0200, Teemu Likonen wrote:

To get operating system's clock have accurate time it needs to be
synchronized with network time servers via network time protocol (NTP).
Systemd has that feature. Turn in on with

 sudo timedatectl set-ntp true


But *don't* do that if you're using some other NTP program instead of
systemd-timesyncd.  Unfortunately, timedatectl does not know about other
NTP programs, and won't report which one you're using.  You'll have
to find that out yourself


Are you saying that both chrony and ntpsec, which are fully ntp 
client/server ack the docs are worthless to timedatectl?


I have a quite good 3d printer, but its running armbian buster, its out 
of synch by days despite ntpsec running and I can see it access my own 
level 2 server but the timedate never synchronizes. I need to know how 
to setup timedatectl to slam the ntp time into the system clock on first 
access at bootup. That would fix a lot of bogus times reported by 
fluidd, the printers web based gui front end.


Thanks Greg. Take care & stay well.

Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: strange time problem with bullseye

[hlyg]

On 3/6/24 13:37, Teemu Likonen wrote:

It seems that you have solved the problem but here is another hint.
"timedatectl" is a good high-level tool for querying and adjusting time
settings. Without command-line arguments it prints a lot of useful info:

 $ timedatectl
Local time: ke 2024-03-06 07:33:00 EET
Universal time: ke 2024-03-06 05:33:00 UTC
  RTC time: ke 2024-03-06 05:33:00
 Time zone: Europe/Helsinki (EET, +0200)
 System clock synchronized: yes
   NTP service: active
   RTC in local TZ: no

See "timedatectl -h" or manual page for more info.



Thank Likonen, timedatectl is useful, ntp isn't installed

System clock synchronized: no NTP service: n/a RTC in local TZ: no

perhaps it's because i didn't install a set of standard tools during 
deb11 installation

Re: strange time problem with bullseye

[David Wright]

On Wed 06 Mar 2024 at 07:07:36 (-0500), Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 06, 2024 at 07:37:09AM +0200, Teemu Likonen wrote:
> > It seems that you have solved the problem but here is another hint.
> > "timedatectl" is a good high-level tool for querying and adjusting time
> > settings. Without command-line arguments it prints a lot of useful info:
> > 
> > $ timedatectl
> >Local time: ke 2024-03-06 07:33:00 EET
> >Universal time: ke 2024-03-06 05:33:00 UTC
> >  RTC time: ke 2024-03-06 05:33:00
> > Time zone: Europe/Helsinki (EET, +0200)
> > System clock synchronized: yes
> >   NTP service: active
> >   RTC in local TZ: no
> > 
> > See "timedatectl -h" or manual page for more info.
> 
> This is a great hint, but be warned that it doesn't quite know about
> NTP services other than systemd-timesyncd.  If you're running ntpsec,
> for example, it'll simply say:
> 
> System clock synchronized: yes
>   NTP service: n/a

Note also that it only shows the system's time zone, and not
necessarily that of the user running it:

$ timedatectl ; echo ; date
   Local time: Wed 2024-03-06 19:18:58 UTC
   Universal time: Wed 2024-03-06 19:18:58 UTC
 RTC time: Wed 2024-03-06 19:18:58
Time zone: Etc/UTC (UTC, +)
System clock synchronized: yes
  NTP service: active
  RTC in local TZ: no

Wed Mar  6 13:18:58 CST 2024
$ 

Cheers,
David.

Re: strange time problem with bullseye

[Jeffrey Walton]

On Wed, Mar 6, 2024 at 7:08 AM Greg Wooledge  wrote:
>
> On Wed, Mar 06, 2024 at 07:37:09AM +0200, Teemu Likonen wrote:
> > It seems that you have solved the problem but here is another hint.
> > "timedatectl" is a good high-level tool for querying and adjusting time
> > settings. Without command-line arguments it prints a lot of useful info:
> >
> > $ timedatectl
> >Local time: ke 2024-03-06 07:33:00 EET
> >Universal time: ke 2024-03-06 05:33:00 UTC
> >  RTC time: ke 2024-03-06 05:33:00
> > Time zone: Europe/Helsinki (EET, +0200)
> > System clock synchronized: yes
> >   NTP service: active
> >   RTC in local TZ: no
> >
> > See "timedatectl -h" or manual page for more info.
>
> This is a great hint, but be warned that it doesn't quite know about
> NTP services other than systemd-timesyncd.  If you're running ntpsec,
> for example, it'll simply say:
>
> System clock synchronized: yes
>   NTP service: n/a

This may help in the future:
.

Jeff

Re: strange time problem with bullseye

[Jeffrey Walton]

On Wed, Mar 6, 2024 at 12:13 PM Roy J. Tellason, Sr.  wrote:
>
> On Wednesday 06 March 2024 12:37:09 am Teemu Likonen wrote:
> > * 2024-03-06 02:47:06+0800, hlyg wrote:
> >
> > > my newly-installed deb11 for amd64 shows wrong time,  it lags behind
> > > correct time by 8 hours though difference between universal and local
> > > is ok.
> >
> > It seems that you have solved the problem but here is another hint.
> > "timedatectl" is a good high-level tool for querying and adjusting time
> > settings. Without command-line arguments it prints a lot of useful info:
> >
> > $ timedatectl
> >Local time: ke 2024-03-06 07:33:00 EET
> >Universal time: ke 2024-03-06 05:33:00 UTC
> >  RTC time: ke 2024-03-06 05:33:00
> > Time zone: Europe/Helsinki (EET, +0200)
> > System clock synchronized: yes
> >   NTP service: active
> >   RTC in local TZ: no
> >
> > See "timedatectl -h" or manual page for more info.
> >
>
> Mine shows:
>
>   Local time: Wed 2024-03-06 12:09:44 EST
>   Universal time: Wed 2024-03-06 17:09:44 UTC
> RTC time: Wed 2024-03-06 17:20:53
>Time zone: America/New_York (EST, -0500)
>  Network time on: yes
> NTP synchronized: no
>  RTC in local TZ: no
>
> How do I get the RTC to agree with the right time?  I don't reboot this 
> often,  but when I do the time displayed on the onscreen clock is typically 
> off by several minutes.

Install ntp, ntpsec or systemd-timesyncd. Once installed and time is
sync'd, run 'sudo hwclock -w'.

Also see  and
.

Jeff

Re: strange time problem with bullseye

[Greg Wooledge]

On Wed, Mar 06, 2024 at 12:31:46PM -0500, Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote:
> Mine shows:
> 
>   Local time: Wed 2024-03-06 12:09:44 EST
>   Universal time: Wed 2024-03-06 17:09:44 UTC
> RTC time: Wed 2024-03-06 17:20:53
>Time zone: America/New_York (EST, -0500)
>  Network time on: yes
> NTP synchronized: no
>  RTC in local TZ: no
> 
> How do I get the RTC to agree with the right time?

"hwclock -w" to copy the system clock to the hardware clock (RTC).  This
should also be done during shutdown, but it doesn't hurt to do it now.


On Wed, Mar 06, 2024 at 07:36:11PM +0200, Teemu Likonen wrote:
> To get operating system's clock have accurate time it needs to be
> synchronized with network time servers via network time protocol (NTP).
> Systemd has that feature. Turn in on with
> 
> sudo timedatectl set-ntp true

But *don't* do that if you're using some other NTP program instead of
systemd-timesyncd.  Unfortunately, timedatectl does not know about other
NTP programs, and won't report which one you're using.  You'll have
to find that out yourself.

Re: strange time problem with bullseye

[Teemu Likonen]

* 2024-03-06 12:31:46-0500, Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote:

>   Local time: Wed 2024-03-06 12:09:44 EST
>   Universal time: Wed 2024-03-06 17:09:44 UTC
> RTC time: Wed 2024-03-06 17:20:53
>Time zone: America/New_York (EST, -0500)
>  Network time on: yes
> NTP synchronized: no
>  RTC in local TZ: no
>
> How do I get the RTC to agree with the right time? I don't reboot this
> often, but when I do the time displayed on the onscreen clock is
> typically off by several minutes.

RTC is the clock on computer's motherboard. It has battery and it can
keep time when the computer is off. That's its purpose. When computer is
shut down the operating system saves its time to RTC. When computer is
booted operating system reads RTC time and sets operating system's
clock. The time is not accurate but at very least it's something instead
of random time. When operating system is running RTC does not matter
anymore.

To get operating system's clock have accurate time it needs to be
synchronized with network time servers via network time protocol (NTP).
Systemd has that feature. Turn in on with

sudo timedatectl set-ntp true

-- 
/// Teemu Likonen - .-.. https://www.iki.fi/tlikonen/
// OpenPGP: 6965F03973F0D4CA22B9410F0F2CAE0E07608462


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: strange time problem with bullseye

[Roy J. Tellason, Sr.]

On Wednesday 06 March 2024 12:37:09 am Teemu Likonen wrote:
> * 2024-03-06 02:47:06+0800, hlyg wrote:
> 
> > my newly-installed deb11 for amd64 shows wrong time,  it lags behind
> > correct time by 8 hours though difference between universal and local
> > is ok.
> 
> It seems that you have solved the problem but here is another hint.
> "timedatectl" is a good high-level tool for querying and adjusting time
> settings. Without command-line arguments it prints a lot of useful info:
> 
> $ timedatectl
>Local time: ke 2024-03-06 07:33:00 EET
>Universal time: ke 2024-03-06 05:33:00 UTC
>  RTC time: ke 2024-03-06 05:33:00
> Time zone: Europe/Helsinki (EET, +0200)
> System clock synchronized: yes
>   NTP service: active
>   RTC in local TZ: no
> 
> See "timedatectl -h" or manual page for more info.
> 

Mine shows:

  Local time: Wed 2024-03-06 12:09:44 EST
  Universal time: Wed 2024-03-06 17:09:44 UTC
RTC time: Wed 2024-03-06 17:20:53
   Time zone: America/New_York (EST, -0500)
 Network time on: yes
NTP synchronized: no
 RTC in local TZ: no

How do I get the RTC to agree with the right time?  I don't reboot this often,  
but when I do the time displayed on the onscreen clock is typically off by 
several minutes.

-- 
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space,  a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed.  --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James 
M Dakin

Re: strange time problem with bullseye

[Greg Wooledge]

On Wed, Mar 06, 2024 at 07:37:09AM +0200, Teemu Likonen wrote:
> It seems that you have solved the problem but here is another hint.
> "timedatectl" is a good high-level tool for querying and adjusting time
> settings. Without command-line arguments it prints a lot of useful info:
> 
> $ timedatectl
>Local time: ke 2024-03-06 07:33:00 EET
>Universal time: ke 2024-03-06 05:33:00 UTC
>  RTC time: ke 2024-03-06 05:33:00
> Time zone: Europe/Helsinki (EET, +0200)
> System clock synchronized: yes
>   NTP service: active
>   RTC in local TZ: no
> 
> See "timedatectl -h" or manual page for more info.

This is a great hint, but be warned that it doesn't quite know about
NTP services other than systemd-timesyncd.  If you're running ntpsec,
for example, it'll simply say:

System clock synchronized: yes
  NTP service: n/a

Re: strange time problem with bullseye

[Teemu Likonen]

* 2024-03-06 02:47:06+0800, hlyg wrote:

> my newly-installed deb11 for amd64 shows wrong time,  it lags behind
> correct time by 8 hours though difference between universal and local
> is ok.

It seems that you have solved the problem but here is another hint.
"timedatectl" is a good high-level tool for querying and adjusting time
settings. Without command-line arguments it prints a lot of useful info:

$ timedatectl
   Local time: ke 2024-03-06 07:33:00 EET
   Universal time: ke 2024-03-06 05:33:00 UTC
 RTC time: ke 2024-03-06 05:33:00
Time zone: Europe/Helsinki (EET, +0200)
System clock synchronized: yes
  NTP service: active
  RTC in local TZ: no

See "timedatectl -h" or manual page for more info.

-- 
/// Teemu Likonen - .-.. https://www.iki.fi/tlikonen/
// OpenPGP: 6965F03973F0D4CA22B9410F0F2CAE0E07608462


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: strange time problem with bullseye

[Jeffrey Walton]

On Tue, Mar 5, 2024 at 7:07 PM hlyg  wrote:
>
>  [...]
>
> Windows shall not cause problem, i rarely use Windows
>
> i don't know if ntp is running, what's default configuration by deb11
> amd64 installer?

If you are dual booting Linux and Windows, then see
.

Jeff

Re: strange time problem with bullseye

[hlyg]

Thank Greg Wooledge! it's solved with your help

i reboot to enter bios, it use UTC

then i change 3rd line of /etc/adjtime to UTC,  reboot to take effect, 
time is shown correctly now


i am timezone 0800, 8 hours ahead of GMT

both /etc/localtime points to same place

Re: strange time problem with bullseye

[Greg Wooledge]

On Tue, Mar 05, 2024 at 08:28:49PM +0800, hlyg wrote:
> Thank Greg Wooledge!
> 
> zhou@debian:~$ date
> Wed 06 Mar 2024 04:07:02 AM CST
> zhou@debian:~$ date -u
> Tue 05 Mar 2024 08:07:07 PM UTC
> 
> above is from deb11 for i386, it's correct

OK, and your time zone is 20 hours ahead of UTC, it appears.

> zhou@debian:~$ date
> Tue 05 Mar 2024 08:13:23 PM CST
> zhou@debian:~$ date -u
> Tue 05 Mar 2024 12:13:27 PM UTC
> 
> above is from deb11 for amd64, it's wrong, utc lag behind by 4 hours

Now this is odd-looking.  In this instance, your time zone is 4 hours
*behind* UTC instead of 20 hours ahead.  Which makes it off by exactly
one whole day.

Also, it *looks* like your i386 instance wrote UTC to the system clock,
and then your amd64 instance read that as local time.  You can see that
the 8:07:07 PM from the first instance is quite close to the 8:13:23 PM
from the second.

> Windows shall not cause problem, i rarely use Windows

The question isn't how often you use it, but whether you booted it in
between the two instances above.  Probably not, I suppose.

> i don't know if ntp is running, what's default configuration by deb11 amd64
> installer?

There is no "default".  Or rather, there are lots of defaults.  It's not
useful to ask about defaults.  Ask about what you have.

These are the packages that provide time-daemon on Debian 11:

systemd-timesyncd
openntpd
ntp
chrony

If one of those is installed and running, it should set your clock from
Internet sources (assuming it's configured reasonably, and you have
Internet access).

But more importantly, you need to check whether your Debian instances are
using local time or UTC for the real time clock, because it *looks* like
the i386 one is using UTC and the amd64 is not.

Check your /etc/adjtime files.

I'm also extremely curious why two different systems report "CST" with
two wildly different offsets from UTC.  What does
"ls -ld /etc/localtime" give on your systems?  Are they both the same?

Re: strange time problem with bullseye

[hlyg]

On 3/5/24 20:28, hlyg wrote:

Thank Greg Wooledge!

zhou@debian:~$ date
Wed 06 Mar 2024 04:07:02 AM CST
zhou@debian:~$ date -u
Tue 05 Mar 2024 08:07:07 PM UTC

above is from deb11 for i386, it's correct

zhou@debian:~$ date
Tue 05 Mar 2024 08:13:23 PM CST
zhou@debian:~$ date -u
Tue 05 Mar 2024 12:13:27 PM UTC

above is from deb11 for amd64, it's wrong, utc lag behind by 4 hours



Correction: utc is faster than correct by 4 hours

difference in minutes and seconds shall be neglected, because i run them 
in deb11 for i386, then reboot to amd64 and run them after a few minutes


these days i run only deb11 for i386 and amd64 on this machine, other OS 
shall not cause problem

strange apt output (due to t_time transition)

[Patrice Duroux]

Hi,

Release: sid
Arch: amd64

Trying to upgrade the qemu related packages, I got the following:

# apt install qemu-utils
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree... Done
Reading state information... Done
Some packages could not be installed. This may mean that you have
requested an impossible situation or if you are using the unstable
distribution that some required packages have not yet been created
or been moved out of Incoming.
The following information may help to resolve the situation:

The following packages have unmet dependencies:
 gstreamer1.0-plugins-good:i386 : Depends: libsoup2.4-1:i386 (>= 2.48) or
   libsoup-3.0-0:i386 but it
is not going to be installed
E: Error, pkgProblemResolver::Resolve generated breaks, this may be
caused by held packages.

A bit surprising output regarding that on my system:

# apt --installed list | grep 'gstreamer1.0-plugins-good\|libsoup-3.0-0'
gstreamer1.0-plugins-good/unstable,now 1.22.10-1 amd64 [installed]
gstreamer1.0-plugins-good/unstable,now 1.22.10-1 i386 [installed]
libsoup-3.0-0/unstable,now 3.4.4-5 amd64 [installed]
libsoup-3.0-0/unstable,now 3.4.4-5 i386 [installed]

By pulling the thread of the qemu-utils dependencies I finally found
that it is related to   libhogweed6t64:{amd64,i386} and so to
libuuid1:i386 that did not yet reach the same version as for amd64
(2.39.3-10) in the archive.

# apt install libuuid1:i386
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree... Done
Reading state information... Done
Some packages could not be installed. This may mean that you have
requested an impossible situation or if you are using the unstable
distribution that some required packages have not yet been created
or been moved out of Incoming.
The following information may help to resolve the situation:

The following packages have unmet dependencies:
 e2fsprogs : PreDepends: libuuid1 (>= 2.16) but it is not installable
 Recommends: e2fsprogs-l10n but it is not going to be installed
 librdf0t64 : Depends: librasqal3 (>= 0.9.31)
 libsm6 : Depends: libuuid1 (>= 2.16) but it is not installable
 util-linux : PreDepends: libuuid1 (>= 2.16) but it is not installable
E: Error, pkgProblemResolver::Resolve generated breaks, this may be
caused by held packages.

# apt show libuuid1:i386
Package: libuuid1:i386
Version: 2.39.3-9
Priority: optional
Section: libs
Source: util-linux
Maintainer: util-linux packagers 
Installed-Size: 80.9 kB
Provides: libuuid1t64 (= 2.39.3-9)
Depends: libc6 (>= 2.25)
Recommends: uuid-runtime
Breaks: libuuid1t64 (<< 2.39.3-9)
Replaces: libuuid1t64
Homepage: https://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/utils/util-linux/
Tag: role::shared-lib
Download-Size: 30.9 kB
APT-Sources: https://deb.debian.org/debian sid/main i386 Packages
Description: Universally Unique ID library
 The libuuid library generates and parses 128-bit Universally Unique
 IDs (UUIDs). A UUID is an identifier that is unique within the space
 of all such identifiers across both space and time. It can be used for
 multiple purposes, from tagging objects with an extremely short lifetime
 to reliably identifying very persistent objects across a network.
 .
 See RFC 4122 for more information.


But why is apt so obscure about this?

Regards,
Patrice

Re: strange time problem with bullseye

[hlyg]

Thank Greg Wooledge!

zhou@debian:~$ date
Wed 06 Mar 2024 04:07:02 AM CST
zhou@debian:~$ date -u
Tue 05 Mar 2024 08:07:07 PM UTC

above is from deb11 for i386, it's correct

zhou@debian:~$ date
Tue 05 Mar 2024 08:13:23 PM CST
zhou@debian:~$ date -u
Tue 05 Mar 2024 12:13:27 PM UTC

above is from deb11 for amd64, it's wrong, utc lag behind by 4 hours

Windows shall not cause problem, i rarely use Windows

i don't know if ntp is running, what's default configuration by deb11 
amd64 installer?

Re: strange time problem with bullseye

[Charles Curley]

On Wed, 6 Mar 2024 02:47:06 +0800
hlyg  wrote:

> wifi connection is good, i suppose both correct time with server 
> automatically

Not necessarily. You should install an NTP client if you haven't
already. I suggest systemd-timesyncd.

-- 
Does anybody read signatures any more?

https://charlescurley.com
https://charlescurley.com/blog/