subject:"wacky question"


On Mon, 24 Jun 2013 07:55:44 +0200, Slavko li...@slavino.sk wrote:

Dňa 24. 6. 2013 2:26 Joel Rees  wrote / napísal(a):
!984 and Animal Farm were allegories of the world the authors lived in,  
not predictions of some dystopian future.


These two things (author's world and prediction of the future) are not
mutual exclusive ;-)


And it's not true that we're living in Orwells 1984, we didn't in 1984 and  
we don't do it today, examples for steps in the other direction, e.g.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liechtenstein_women's_suffrage_referendum,_1984

1. Januar 2011 nobody in Germany is forced to join the armed forces  
anymore, I still got a criminal record a little bit after 1984 for not  
doing this.


Please don't claim that everything is that evil. I'm fighting for human  
rights etc. and I'm an anarchist, but western democracy, with all it's  
negative aspects isn't that totalitarian as many people claim.


People who are 30, 40 and more years old might remember that some years  
ago gays, women, people with a black skin etc. had a much harder life, see  
above, Liechtenstein women's suffrage referendum and than google for  
Sharia.


I agree that what the NSA and others do is wrong, bad, evil, but note,  
women get allowed to vote and the Islamic nations want to obtrude the  
Sharia.


If we criticize on side, we need to take a look at the whole situation. We  
don't live in Orwells 1984 and we have people who will force us to follow  
their religious crap, they terrorize us.


Don't get me wrong, we should fight for data protection, we should  
criticize our governments, they aren't our leaders, they are our  
employees. We have much mafis we shouldn't have, bankers, foot mafi etc.,  
but we are free to fight against this. Muck in, do social work etc. and  
don't claim we are living in dictatorships. We don't life in little  
ponyland, but that is something different to a dictatorships.


And if people won't muck in they simply could stop too use latest  
Zuckerberg crap etc..


Don't say the politicians are evil and then I won't be  
self-responsible, I want politicians who do everything for me.



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Re: wacky question

On Monday 24 June 2013 01:26:01 Joel Rees wrote:
 !984 and Animal Farm were allegories of the world the authors

author, singular.  There was only one George Orwell.

 lived in, not 
 predictions of some dystopian future.

He was not a scientist, and most of the science in 1984 did not exist in 
1948/9.  1984 was an imaginative projection of what he saw as current 
trends into a resulting dystopian future.  

Animal Farm was indeed allegorical and referred to the past and present, not 
the future.  But it was also very much dystopian.

Lisi


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Re: wacky question

2013-06-24 Thread Joel Rees

On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 6:16 PM, Lisi Reisz lisi.re...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Monday 24 June 2013 01:26:01 Joel Rees wrote:
  !984 and Animal Farm were allegories of the world the authors

 author, singular.  There was only one George Orwell.


My goodness. You're right.

I suppose it would have helped my memory if 1984 hadn't given me such a
headache, and if I had been able to sit still to read Animal Farm when I
was a teenager.

Have to admit, Heinlein, Bradbury, and Pohl were easier to read back then.
Forty years down the road and I find myself re-visiting the books that were
hard back then, and finding them very readable. And much more meaningful.
Hadn't gotten back to Animal Farm, I think it may be time.

 lived in, not
  predictions of some dystopian future.
 He was not a scientist,


You don't have to be a scientist to predict the future.


 and most of the science in 1984 did not exist in
 1948/9.  1984 was an imaginative projection of what he saw as current
 trends into a resulting dystopian future.


It was still an allegory of the world around him. And around us. People who
get in government and start thinking they know better than the rest of us
have always been around, and they pretty much tend to do the same things.
And we tend to get caught up in the wrong battles and find ourselves
converted to their world. And conflate the government's stupidities with
God's intent for us to learn hard lessons.


 Animal Farm was indeed allegorical and referred to the past and present,
 not
 the future.  But it was also very much dystopian.


Again, people don't change. The adults, well, some of them, in my teenage
world were concerned that the US was just taking a longer track down the
same path as the Soviet Union, and their concern was well-founded. We are
in their future now, and the US is one step over the line on losing our
Constitution, and one step away from totalitarianism.

Much though Ralf's assertions that many things have changed for the better
over that time are correct.

Unless there isn't a major course correction, there won't be much time left
until the erstwhile minorities find themselves, along with us white
trash, less equal than the {ruling-class}.

What this has to do with operating systems is that operating systems are
one of the battle grounds where the armies are gathering on their way to
the big war.

Privacy is not about our personal right to whimsy so much as it is about
keeping the governments from inserting their taps into the local control
lines and trying to assert non-local control through the social context, to
the ends of their own whimsy.

And we users need to become more involved with the development processes,
or we will find ourselves ill-prepared for the trench wars.


 Lisi


--
Joel Rees, feeling a little embarrassed at the melodramatic tone this rant
has taken

Re: wacky question

On Monday 24 June 2013 12:08:11 Joel Rees wrote:
  He was not a scientist,

 You don't have to be a scientist to predict the future.

No, but he was not in fact in the know about recent scientific developments, 
nor the way that science was moving.  A scientist at the cutting edge might 
have had a better knowledge of where research was leading.

So it is remarkable that he was able to predict so accurately what would be 
done with computers and CCTV (which had not of course been invented).  
Electronic computers had only just been invented, were ginormous, very low 
powered, and were used only by the military.  TV was in its infancy.  The 
first photocopier as we know photocopiers was not made until over ten years 
after this book was written.

Eric Blair (pen name George Orwell) was a remarkable man in many ways.

Lisi


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Re: wacky question

2013-06-24 Thread Lars Noodén

On 06/24/2013 02:41 PM, Lisi Reisz wrote:
 So it is remarkable that he was able to predict so accurately what would be 
 done with computers and CCTV (which had not of course been invented).  

I think some of that has less to do with actual prediction than it has
to do with many individuals misinterpreting the message.  They have been
using his books as templates of how things should be and working to make
a world described in his books.

Regards
/Lars



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Re: wacky question

On Monday 24 June 2013 12:45:25 Lars Noodén wrote:
 On 06/24/2013 02:41 PM, Lisi Reisz wrote:
  So it is remarkable that he was able to predict so accurately what would
  be done with computers and CCTV (which had not of course been invented).

 I think some of that has less to do with actual prediction than it has
 to do with many individuals misinterpreting the message.  They have been
 using his books as templates of how things should be and working to make
 a world described in his books.

:-)

Lisi


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Re: wacky question

2013-06-24 Thread André Nunes Batista

Since I was the one who first pointed out 1984, I guess I should add
another comment.

I do not meant we actually live in Orwell's society. I used an hyperbole
as mean to purposefully disregard the differences in fiction and point
out how far his distopia went on to describe something very prevalent
on our societies: surveillance and behavior control, aka, fascism, and
the use of tech to put this on practice.

On these topics, I would very much recommend Surveiller et Punir by
Michel Foucault, among others. Not that his ouvre would more
accurately depic our societies high-tech or dynamics, but it certainly
points out that behavior control and surveillance were brought up
together with humanism and enlightment.

Through Germany and Soviet Union are the only countries publicly
despised as totalitarians, fascism is something that pervades western
thought in a much more profound way and currently the states are
imposing on humanity a much greater loss than concentration camps and
gulags. Germany lost ww2, soviets lost cold war, fascism won them both.

Regards,

-- 

Luther Blisset
GNUPG/PGP KEY: 6722CF80

I challenge you to play the game in which there is no loser but
everything is fun and worthwhile!



---BeginMessage---

On Mon, 24 Jun 2013 07:55:44 +0200, Slavko li...@slavino.sk wrote:

Dňa 24. 6. 2013 2:26 Joel Rees  wrote / napísal(a):
!984 and Animal Farm were allegories of the world the authors lived in,  
not predictions of some dystopian future.


These two things (author's world and prediction of the future) are not
mutual exclusive ;-)


And it's not true that we're living in Orwells 1984, we didn't in 1984 and  
we don't do it today, examples for steps in the other direction, e.g.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liechtenstein_women's_suffrage_referendum,_1984

1. Januar 2011 nobody in Germany is forced to join the armed forces  
anymore, I still got a criminal record a little bit after 1984 for not  
doing this.


Please don't claim that everything is that evil. I'm fighting for human  
rights etc. and I'm an anarchist, but western democracy, with all it's  
negative aspects isn't that totalitarian as many people claim.


People who are 30, 40 and more years old might remember that some years  
ago gays, women, people with a black skin etc. had a much harder life, see  
above, Liechtenstein women's suffrage referendum and than google for  
Sharia.


I agree that what the NSA and others do is wrong, bad, evil, but note,  
women get allowed to vote and the Islamic nations want to obtrude the  
Sharia.


If we criticize on side, we need to take a look at the whole situation. We  
don't live in Orwells 1984 and we have people who will force us to follow  
their religious crap, they terrorize us.


Don't get me wrong, we should fight for data protection, we should  
criticize our governments, they aren't our leaders, they are our  
employees. We have much mafis we shouldn't have, bankers, foot mafi etc.,  
but we are free to fight against this. Muck in, do social work etc. and  
don't claim we are living in dictatorships. We don't life in little  
ponyland, but that is something different to a dictatorships.


And if people won't muck in they simply could stop too use latest  
Zuckerberg crap etc..


Don't say the politicians are evil and then I won't be  
self-responsible, I want politicians who do everything for me.



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Re: wacky question

On Mon, 2013-06-24 at 08:57 -0300, André Nunes Batista wrote:
 Germany lost ww2, soviets lost cold war, fascism won them both.

Fascism in Germany lose. Germany doesn't suppress other nations anymore,
the government doesn't suppress it's own people anymore, we don't have a
GDR anymore. Socialism and communism are dead and capitalism can't stay
forever. Sure, the banks still are much to mighty.

There's a big difference between something that isn't good, unfairness
etc. and real fascism.

Regarding nowadays data protection, we should be aware that evolution of
technology overrun social evolution, this will be fixed within the next
hundred years.



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Re: wacky question

On Monday 24 June 2013 12:57:01 André Nunes Batista wrote:
 Since I was the one who first pointed out 1984, I guess I should add
 another comment.

 I do not meant we actually live in Orwell's society. I used an hyperbole
 as mean to purposefully disregard the differences in fiction and point
 out how far his distopia went on to describe something very prevalent
 on our societies: surveillance and behavior control, aka, fascism, and
 the use of tech to put this on practice.

That is exactly how I understood what you said.  I think that you were totally 
clear.

It was Joel Rees with whom I disagreed.  I still say that 1984 is not an 
allegory.  It is not symbolic of anything; it is itself.

I entirely agree with what you say here.  It is disturbing how like Orwell's 
distopia our modern world is.  And disturbing that he could see the seeds so 
long ago.

I fear our governnments more than I fear the things from which they claim to 
protect us.

Lisi

This is an interesting discussion.  But perhaps if we want to continue we 
should take it off-list?


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Re: wacky question

2013-06-24 Thread Carroll Grigsby

On Mon, 24 Jun 2013 15:28:18 +0100
Lisi Reisz lisi.re...@gmail.com wrote:

 whack

 This is an interesting discussion.  But perhaps if we want to
 continue we should take it off-list?
 
Please do.

-- cmg 


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Re: wacky question

On Mon, 2013-06-24 at 15:28 +0100, Lisi Reisz wrote:
 And disturbing that he could see the seeds so 
 long ago.

Somebody already explained that this is the nature of beings. We didn't
change that much, even philosophers 2000 years before Orwell have seen
this.

 I fear our governnments more than I fear the things from which they claim to 
 protect us.

Our governments make a lot of evil things without our permissions, but
there are reasons for people seek asylum in evil countries like the
USA, France, Great Britain, Germany etc. ;). Lees people flew from the
USA to Mexico or from Germany to Serbia ;).

 This is an interesting discussion.  But perhaps if we want to continue we 
 should take it off-list

http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic



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Re: wacky question

On Mon, 2013-06-24 at 11:01 -0400, Carroll Grigsby wrote:
 On Mon, 24 Jun 2013 15:28:18 +0100
 Lisi Reisz lisi.re...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  whack
 
  This is an interesting discussion.  But perhaps if we want to
  continue we should take it off-list?
  
 Please do.

I several time tried to switch _this thread_ to

http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic

http://lists.alioth.debian.org/pipermail/d-community-offtopic/2013-June/date.html

This list was made for such discussion.



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Re: wacky question

2013-06-24 Thread Zenaan Harkness

On 6/25/13, Carroll Grigsby cgrigs...@att.net wrote:
 On Mon, 24 Jun 2013 15:28:18 +0100
 Lisi Reisz lisi.re...@gmail.com wrote:

 whack

 This is an interesting discussion.  But perhaps if we want to
 continue we should take it off-list?

debian-curiosa@lists... perhaps appropriate?

Some (such as I) do appreciate some diversions, esp. matters in
relation to freedom. So I'm wondering how it could go off-list?


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Re: wacky question

2013-06-24 Thread staticsafe

On Tue, Jun 25, 2013 at 09:41:24AM +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
 On 6/25/13, Carroll Grigsby cgrigs...@att.net wrote:
  On Mon, 24 Jun 2013 15:28:18 +0100
  Lisi Reisz lisi.re...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  whack
 
  This is an interesting discussion.  But perhaps if we want to
  continue we should take it off-list?
 
 debian-curiosa@lists... perhaps appropriate?
 
 Some (such as I) do appreciate some diversions, esp. matters in
 relation to freedom. So I'm wondering how it could go off-list?
 
 

Thereis the debian community offtopic mailing list.
http://lists.alioth.debian.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic
-- 
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O ascii ribbon campaign - stop html mail - www.asciiribbon.org
Please don't top post.
Please don't CC! I'm subscribed to whatever list I just posted on.


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Re: wacky question


On Tue, 25 Jun 2013 02:11:10 +0200, staticsafe m...@staticsafe.ca wrote:


On Tue, Jun 25, 2013 at 09:41:24AM +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:

On 6/25/13, Carroll Grigsby cgrigs...@att.net wrote:
 On Mon, 24 Jun 2013 15:28:18 +0100
 Lisi Reisz lisi.re...@gmail.com wrote:

 whack

 This is an interesting discussion.  But perhaps if we want to
 continue we should take it off-list?

debian-curiosa@lists... perhaps appropriate?

Some (such as I) do appreciate some diversions, esp. matters in
relation to freedom. So I'm wondering how it could go off-list?




Thereis the debian community offtopic mailing list.
http://lists.alioth.debian.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic


Take a look at the Archiv
http://lists.alioth.debian.org/pipermail/d-community-offtopic/2013-June/date.html

I tried to move this thread already on Sat Jun 22 05:55:18 UTC 2013 to  
this list.


This thread shouldn't go off-list, but it also isn't good to continue it  
here.



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Re: Deterministic Builds (was [Re: wacky question])

2013-06-23 Thread Сту Деус

Good time of the day, Sean.


Thank you, for your time and answer. On Thu, 20 Jun 2013 03:32:40 -0400
you wrote:

 Has U.S. started an Internet war?

Pardon to say, but have you just awoken?!
And not only the Internet one! For decades.


Сту.


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Re: wacky question

2013-06-23 Thread lina

On Saturday 22,June,2013 10:59 PM, Lisi Reisz wrote:
 On Saturday 22 June 2013 05:39:27 lina wrote:
 What is dangerous is that people take hooligan as holy fighter, and
 gentleman as dictator.
 
 Really??  Where??  When?? Can you quote?  This sounds bizarre to me.
 
 Lisi
 
 

I am going to deliberately ignore your questions. Just FYI.


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Re: wacky question

2013-06-23 Thread Jerry Stuckle


On 6/23/2013 10:13 AM, lina wrote:

On Saturday 22,June,2013 10:59 PM, Lisi Reisz wrote:

On Saturday 22 June 2013 05:39:27 lina wrote:

What is dangerous is that people take hooligan as holy fighter, and
gentleman as dictator.


Really??  Where??  When?? Can you quote?  This sounds bizarre to me.

Lisi




I am going to deliberately ignore your questions. Just FYI.




Why are you ignoring it?  It's a legitimate question, and I'd like to 
know, also.


Or can't you back up your statements?


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Re: wacky question

2013-06-23 Thread Ralf Mardorf

On Sun, 2013-06-23 at 22:13 +0800, lina wrote:
 On Saturday 22,June,2013 10:59 PM, Lisi Reisz wrote:
  On Saturday 22 June 2013 05:39:27 lina wrote:
  What is dangerous is that people take hooligan as holy fighter, and
  gentleman as dictator.
  
  Really??  Where??  When?? Can you quote?  This sounds bizarre to me.
  
  Lisi
  
  
 
 I am going to deliberately ignore your questions. Just FYI.

*chuckle*

But seriously, especially in Great Britain and Germany hooligans costs
the taxpayers much money, so I suspect holy fighter isn't from English
or German journalists. I know, if a gentleman hold the door open for a
women, he has to reckon to be called a sexist, but I never heard
dictator. I don't know when it became sexist to hold open a door and I
don't care about it.

I can't see the relation to data protection ;).



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Re: wacky question

2013-06-23 Thread Stanisław Findeisen

On 2013-06-20 04:44, Greg wrote:
 Does anyone think that debian could participate in any programs like
 PRISM? Or could a lone (or group of) sympathetic DD or DM slip a
 backdoor or something that could collect private info in the binary
 packages distributed by debian?

It all boils down to technical issues:

1. AFAIK when you install any Debian package it simply gets root access
to your system.

2. Later, when you use the package, you only have limited control over
what it really does. Perhaps SELinux: http://wiki.debian.org/SELinux
could help with this, but it is not enabled on my desktop so I am not
really sure how well it is supported. I.e. the policy files can
sometimes be incomplete, buggy etc.

3. Linux kernel is a monolithic one with ca. 15 million LOC (lines of code).

4. As Richard already mentioned:
http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2013/06/msg00832.html , compilers
can be flawed and insert any backdoor.

I think the issues we could most easily deal with as a Debian community
are 1-2, i.e.:

1. design a new package system with restrictions on what a package can
do (a system API perhaps, that a package can use, instead of giving it a
root shell)

2. enable SELinux by default (even on a desktop), so that its support
matures and, at the same time, Debian installations become a harder
target for any surveillance attempts.

Ok, one more:

5. Perhaps we could also develop some more systematic ways of code
review. Have you ever read that 1997 Epson printer driver code (which is
part of your kernel) etc.

-- 
http://people.eisenbits.com/~stf/
http://www.eisenbits.com/

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Re: wacky question

2013-06-23 Thread Chris Bannister

On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 05:07:01PM -0400, Greg wrote:
 Harmless data like what religious group you descend from? Something that
 is considered innocuous today might be considered differently at a later
 time by a less tolerant government.
 
 I think most of this should be dropped or moved elsewhere, but I would
 like the actual methods the debian project uses to protect itself from
 systematic monitoring, data-collection or even hacking by governments or
 other private organizations. I don't see that as being off topic for
 this list.

Maybe debian-project may be more on topic. But I'm guessing that
discussing that there will be going over old ground for many of the
subscribers.

I'd suggest a search through the archives, although I'm not sure what
term(s) to use to stop false positives.

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X


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Re: wacky question

2013-06-23 Thread Ralf Mardorf

On Mon, 2013-06-24 at 08:00 +1200, Chris Bannister wrote:
 [snip] I'm guessing that discussing that there will be going over old
 ground for many of the subscribers. [snip]

That's the point, it's not that I don't care about this issue, but it's
not a new issue, just because there were those news about the NSA and
even while the news that the amount of the British data collection is
bulkier than the one of the Pentagon are new, the problem still isn't
new. No need to panic!

When I set up my first Internet machine around 10 years ago I was
thinking about this issue, it was a little bit before or after 9/11, but
e.g. http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Bundestrojaner always was discussed,
even before it was named. I read that 2007 most people who were ask were
pro this unconstitutional online search.

Most people are stupid! In their minds they guess that it's ok, if
somebody has nothing to hide, then it should be ok not to care about
data protection. Fortunately those idiots are the once who run into
issues, but not because the NSA does spy, but because they get mail from
the department of public prosecution, because they were caught when
uploading, while downloading illegal torrents :D, because there
colleagues are able to read their open profile and the porn pics, while
they thought the profile at Faceslap is closed for public etc.. They
aren't aware that they are the once who have something to hide, but they
aren't aware what everybody and what a judge is able to see.

Most of as know what can be seen and what not, so because we're aware
about this issues, we can be careful, so it's completely irrelevant for
us.

Would anybody trust the news that claim since today all governments
never ever will spy and collect the data anymore? All the people who
protested against it made all the nations understanding that they did
something wrong and from today on they never ever will do it again and
beyond that Debian and other Linux distros have found a protection that
is absolutely 101% safe.

There's nothing we can do, nothing to talk about.


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Re: wacky question

2013-06-23 Thread Ralf Mardorf

PS: If we were yesterday at the doctor and it was said that we are fit,
we anyway can fall dead when we sit up the next minute. There's nothing
that is able to cover us. Living isn't secure. In some German cellars
not only the telephone lines for the house, but sometimes even for the
neighbour houses are accessible, if you own a screwdriver. I was able to
spy when I was in elementary school, I didn't do it, a friend and I
build our own telegraph line in that age, we were constructive and not
destructive. But everybody with minimal knowledge can spy.


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On Sun, 2013-06-23 at 22:13 +0800, lina wrote:
On Saturday 22,June,2013 10:59 PM, Lisi Reisz wrote:
On Saturday 22 June 2013 05:39:27 lina wrote:
What is dangerous is that people take hooligan as holy fighter, and
gentleman as dictator.

Really?? Where?? When?? Can you quote? This sounds bizarre to me.

Lisi

I am going to deliberately ignore your questions. Just FYI.

Six young footballers and a father of one of the players have been
jailed for beating a linesman to death during an amateur match in the
Netherlands last year.

Richard Nieuwenhuizen, 41, from Buitenboys, died after being punched and
kicked by players from opponents Nieuw Sloten on Sunday, December 2.

A Dutch court convicted the seven people involved of manslaughter in the
death of volunteer linesman Nieuwenhuizen who was knocked to the ground
and repeatedly kicked after a youth match last December in a brutal
attack.

Judges in Lelystad sentenced the 50-year-old father to six years in
prison. Five teenaged players were given two-year sentences in youth
detention for their roles in the attack and another was sentenced to a
year. -
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2343141/Seven-people-jailed-beating-linesman-death-amateur-Dutch-football-match.html

Wow, if six other people who aren't soccer players, but athletically
trained would beat a single person to death for something like an
unwanted decision during a game, I guess the sentence would be a little
bit more than six years.

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Re: wacky question

2013-06-23 Thread Joel Rees

I read through this, and I am wondering why you posted this very carefully
crafted troll.

If you haven't been aware that the NSA has been going rogue from the
beginning of its existence, you haven't been aware of the NSA. Likewise the
CIA, FBI, etc., and their equivalents in pretty much every country. Social
engineering is expected. I am sure there are moles in the Debian
organization.

I half suspect the guys behind systemctld and the unified /bin efforts to
be such moles, but that's part of the price of using a computer system. You
can't build all your own tools. You wouldn't have the time. Cloning
yourself doesn't help. Who is going to watch all the clones? Immortality
doesn't help because you can't really trust yourself.

Okay, sure, any time is a good time to review some of the socio-political
reasons for using free-as-in-freedom software:

Free to add what we want, and free to remove what we want. Not perfect,
because of the size of the thing, but far more free than with the
proprietary alternatives.

Many people with common goals working on the code, in the open. Not
perfectly common goals, but more so than with the proprietary alternatives.

The possibility of bootstrap mitigates the possible rewards to the
attackers, including attackers from government X.

And, yes, you should be using Theo's OS as well as Debby and Ian's (since
you insist on bringing Theo up). Maybe not as a part of your everyday
toolset, but you should have it handy.

SELinux? I don't know. It's one of the reasons I finally got off my
laziness and started using Debian instead of Fedora for about half of my
everyday stuff. It's worth looking at, just to recognize the bars that it
misses in trying to layer security on top of the kernel. The current
incarnation at least stays out of your way almost as well as the
fundamental Linux permissions system does.

Fedora suffers from the centralized processes. Nowhere nearly as much as a
closed OS, but it does suffer. Debian suffers a bit from lack of
centralization, but that is offset by the eclectic nature of the
development community. (The old argument of centralization versus
decentralization.)

OpenBSD requires a higher skill level, but that suggests the real answer to
your questions.

If you are concerned about whether some government or some non-governmental
group might pervert your libre OS of choice, what you should be doing is
not beefing about it here. Become a developer. Get involved. Learn the
tools.

If you want more eyes on the code, join the process. Add your own eyes. If
Debian is too big, has too much institutional baggage, join the openBSD
team (since you brought them up).

If you are good enough at the tools, start your own distro. Bootstrap your
gcc with clang, or vice versa. Use that to bootstrap your new distro.
(Oversimplifying, but that's a quick overview of the process.)

Get as much involved as you have time to.

In the meantime, be careful where you put which parts of your data when.
And be careful of what kind of data you generate. Try not to do illegal
things that you don't have to, and don't be too obvious about it. Don't be
noisy about the illegal things you think you have to do. And don't be too
noisy about trying to follow the letter of the law, either. Etc.

But these are the rules you should already be following. Some parts of
history have been more dangerous than others, but life has always been this
way.

!984 and Animal Farm were allegories of the world the authors lived in, not
predictions of some dystopian future.

--
Joel Rees

On Sat, Jun 22, 2013 at 6:23 AM, Greg greg...@att.net wrote:

 On Thu, 2013-06-20 at 20:40 +0200, Slavko wrote:
  Dňa 20.06.2013 17:12 Greg  wrote / napísal(a):
 
   I'm just wondering what debian does to check and protect its users, so
   fuck me, right?
 
  Your protection is your responsibility. The Debian (and other OS) can
  only help you with this. Of course, some can do it better and another
  no. An some can criminalize you, when you want to see what is inside (by
  license violation), but these last are then taking responsibility, but
  do you really want to loose your own responsibility?
 
  IMO, if you want to transmit your responsibility, you must select
  another model of OS, than Debian is.
 
  regards
 

 So I have no right to ask to to even think about how software is built
 or made available by debian? To protect myself I have but to debug every
 line of code I use and build it all myself, on CPU's I forged in my
 backyard smithy? Perhaps I could launch my own satellites to ensure safe
 global access to a self-made internet. Iran has gone down that path,
 perhaps we should all do likewise, or just go live in a cave or use
 openbsd machines with the network cards pulled out? What if they get to
 Theo? Then I'm done for!

Re: wacky question

2013-06-23 Thread Slavko

Dňa 24. 6. 2013 2:26 Joel Rees  wrote / napísal(a):
 !984 and Animal Farm were allegories of the world the authors lived in, not
 predictions of some dystopian future.

These two things (author's world and prediction of the future) are not
mutual exclusive ;-)

-- 
Slavko
http://slavino.sk


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Re: wacky question

2013-06-22 Thread Ralf Mardorf

On Fri, 2013-06-21 at 17:23 -0400, Greg wrote:
 On Thu, 2013-06-20 at 20:40 +0200, Slavko wrote:
  Dňa 20.06.2013 17:12 Greg  wrote / napísal(a):
  
   I'm just wondering what debian does to check and protect its users, so
   fuck me, right?
  
  Your protection is your responsibility. The Debian (and other OS) can
  only help you with this. Of course, some can do it better and another
  no. An some can criminalize you, when you want to see what is inside (by
  license violation), but these last are then taking responsibility, but
  do you really want to loose your own responsibility?
  
  IMO, if you want to transmit your responsibility, you must select
  another model of OS, than Debian is.
  
  regards
  
 
 So I have no right to ask to to even think about how software is built
 or made available by debian? To protect myself I have but to debug every
 line of code I use and build it all myself, on CPU's I forged in my
 backyard smithy? Perhaps I could launch my own satellites to ensure safe
 global access to a self-made internet. Iran has gone down that path,
 perhaps we should all do likewise, or just go live in a cave or use
 openbsd machines with the network cards pulled out? What if they get to
 Theo? Then I'm done for!

An electromagnetic isolated cave is a good idea.

Btw. what if somebody knows how to do prime factrisaton?
http://www.mathsisfun.com/prime-factorization.html


PS: d-community-offto...@lists.alioth.debian.org is a serious list for
such kinds of discussions.


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Re: wacky question

2013-06-22 Thread Ralf Mardorf

On Fri, 2013-06-21 at 22:24 +0100, Lisi Reisz wrote:
 On Friday 21 June 2013 22:07:01 Greg wrote:
   I agree with you, but they are still not dangerous for me, since I'm a
   German. If my own country will get even harmless data, it's different
   for me. I guess most us aren't from the USA, since this is an
   international mailing list. This thread, perhaps should be moved to the
   off-topic list?
 
 You have missed the point, Ralf.  The USA government is collecting all its 
 data, but it is only using the information for non-Americans.  I.e. for you 
 and me.  Tor is beginning to sound more attractive by the email at the 
 moment!

What are they collecting? The emails I write to Linux mailing lists,
perhaps the mails to Jack devel, Jack-Devel Private Archives
Authentication:
http://lists.jackaudio.org/private.cgi/jack-devel-jackaudio.org/

Do they collect my mails to Debian user, an open mailing list?

And then, will they hijack me and bring me to Guantanamo, because I
dislike Obama? More likely I run into issues because I dislike Mrs.
Merkel.



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Re: wacky question

2013-06-22 Thread Lisi Reisz

On Saturday 22 June 2013 05:39:27 lina wrote:
 What is dangerous is that people take hooligan as holy fighter, and
 gentleman as dictator.

Really??  Where??  When?? Can you quote?  This sounds bizarre to me.

Lisi


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Re: wacky question

2013-06-21 Thread Joe

On Fri, 21 Jun 2013 01:33:41 +0200
Ralf Mardorf ralf.mard...@alice-dsl.net wrote:

 On Thu, 2013-06-20 at 15:25 -0700, Scott Linnenbringer wrote:
  Facebook stores every wall post, private message, photo, etc even
  after you remove from wall, delete or untag.
 
 In some countries this is forbidden.
 

Meaning that only the government can do it.

But if forbidden things didn't have a way of happening, we would have
no need for police, prisons etc., the existence of the law would
guarantee good behaviour.

It is safest to assume that any available technology *will* be used by
one's own government, and any private organisations large enough to
lean on members of that government.

-- 
Joe


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Re: wacky question

2013-06-21 Thread Ralf Mardorf

On Fri, 2013-06-21 at 09:23 +0100, Joe wrote:
 On Fri, 21 Jun 2013 01:33:41 +0200
 Ralf Mardorf ralf.mard...@alice-dsl.net wrote:
 
  On Thu, 2013-06-20 at 15:25 -0700, Scott Linnenbringer wrote:
   Facebook stores every wall post, private message, photo, etc even
   after you remove from wall, delete or untag.
  
  In some countries this is forbidden.
  
 
 Meaning that only the government can do it.
 
 But if forbidden things didn't have a way of happening, we would have
 no need for police, prisons etc., the existence of the law would
 guarantee good behaviour.
 
 It is safest to assume that any available technology *will* be used by
 one's own government, and any private organisations large enough to
 lean on members of that government.

I agree with this, at the moment a lawyer is helping me, regarding to a
data protection issue, that has to do with a German department. This
department needs information about me, so they need a file containing
this + tons of other information. They want to archive the file and
guarantee that nobody in their house will read anything, but the
needed information only. I want to give them the needed information only
and not the complete file. It's an expert report and I want an
independent expert to do it and to give them just the needed
information, but they want the report from their own expert.

That is completely against the idea of the German law, even the lawyer
said, that I'm right, but it's normal and we can't do much against it.
This is about a file made of paper.

I guess they don't do it in bad faith, they simply don't think about
data protection. However, the times are changing and misuse is very
likely. I once was in private contact with a women working for a German
department and she verified what I've written her privately, without the
permission to do it. Since I'm not a liar she only get the same
information I already gave her, but it's anyway not correct to do it and
does show how (un)save data is at German departments.

OTOH the commissioner for data protection is interested, when there are
issues regarding to computer data protection. If you like, you can send
each spam you received to the commissioner for data protection and (s)he
will directly forward it to the public prosecution department and they
directly take action. The problem here usually are servers in other
countries. You'll get a mail that the German public prosecution
department is working together with public prosecution departments of
other nations to fight against some very dangerous spammers. Note, not
all spam mail simply is ludicrous, some spam is dangerous for
inexperienced computer users.

IOW, if Facebook would have servers in Germany, they need to offer the
German government something very useful or they need to follow the
German law. I don't think that Facebook can offer something very useful
to a government, OTOH Facebook can offer useful information for
companies, such as the once from the food processing industry/mafia and
their lobby might have marionettes who are members of the German
government.

Sure, there are security wholes and you need self-responsibility and
need to fight against misuse and most people are neither
self-responsible, nor do they fight against misuse of their data. You
can test it, randomly call a phone number and ask for private data using
a trick or simply take a look in the headers of some mails, sometimes
you see private servers and you can get telephone numbers and addresses
of people who want to be anonyme at e.g. denic.de within a few seconds.

But again, I really don't know what Facebooks offers, that so many
people are subscribed to it. Is there something we could use Facebook
for? I'm a lone wolf, it's work for me to keep up a hand full of
friends, I'm unable to do it for 500 virtual friends and I don't see
anything useful in it. Btw. the handful of friends I've got don't
devastate my possession and I don't want to have friends from Facebook
doing this.

IIUC Facebook is for people who are unable to do something useful with
the less time we have to live, instead of learning, being creative, they
tend to be destructive, uninterested in science and arts etc., but they
like to party, to party and to party.


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Re: wacky question

2013-06-21 Thread Andrei POPESCU

On Jo, 20 iun 13, 18:41:42, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
 
 The USA and similar countries IMO aren't dangerous for most of us, since
 I suspect that less of us are terrorists. 

Sorry, but I don't accept this argument. Just because we personally may 
not be targeted is still no excuse to tolerate it when a government, any 
government, is not respecting a person's rights.

Kind regards,
Andrei
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Re: wacky question

2013-06-21 Thread Ralf Mardorf

On Fri, 2013-06-21 at 16:22 +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
 On Jo, 20 iun 13, 18:41:42, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
  
  The USA and similar countries IMO aren't dangerous for most of us, since
  I suspect that less of us are terrorists. 
 
 Sorry, but I don't accept this argument. Just because we personally may 
 not be targeted is still no excuse to tolerate it when a government, any 
 government, is not respecting a person's rights.

I agree with you, but they are still not dangerous for me, since I'm a
German. If my own country will get even harmless data, it's different
for me. I guess most us aren't from the USA, since this is an
international mailing list. This thread, perhaps should be moved to the
off-topic list?

Regards,
Ralf


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Re: wacky question

On Thu, 2013-06-20 at 18:41 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
 On Thu, 2013-06-20 at 10:44 -0500, John Hasler wrote:
  Governments just don't give a damn about your desktop.  Sorry if that
  bruises your ego.  They may be interested in your email and Websurfing
  in the unlikely event that you are a person of interest, but they
  can get that from your provider.
 
 Correct, if they would spy my machine, they would risk, that I would
 notice it soon or later, but if they do it at another location, that is
 beyond my scope.
 
 OTOH they might be interested to get the private openPGP keys, just to
 take a look, if we're persons of interest, so a backdoor to our PCs
 would be from interest for them too.
 
 The solution is very simple. My machine that is for everyday usage
 doesn't contain secrets. It's not a secure machine and I'm aware of this
 fact. If I ever have the need to share top secrets, I would set up
 another machine, with all kinds of protections and I only would connect
 it to the Internet, when it's absolutely needed. We e.g. could decrypt
 and read mails on a machine, that is never connected to the Internet and
 then e.g. use a self build (self soldered) USB stick to transmit it
 between our computers etc. pp..

That might work for an actual terrorist, but I am a citizen and I do not
think it is acceptable to have to act like a terrorist to keep my
humble, everyday secrets private. This government does not make any
effort to spy only on terrorists or foreigners, it digests everything it
can and every few months we find out they collect even more than we
thought.

Even worse, Mr Snowden and other have shown there is little regard for
that information once it is collected. Interested parties can and do tap
into that information for their own private, non-terrorist-catching
purposes.

Maybe everyone is predisposed to make a joke of the problems that are
largely beyond our control (ie government, corporations and the failure
of our democracy to have any power to restrain them). But with debian
I have powerful tools to protect myself and I would like to have some
sense that those tools are built with some significant safeguards rather
than everyone just assuming it is too hard to hack or such hacking could
easily be detected. I hope the developers have given these issues a lot
of thought. It is a sad day when security through obscurity is a main
argument on a debian mailling list.

Maybe I should have asked on a dev list, but that is something I don't
do because DMs and DDs have more important things to do than instruct
random people on details of their work. The reason I asked here is
because the searches I did on debian and debian related sites didn't
bring up much relevant info.




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Re: wacky question

On Thu, 2013-06-20 at 10:44 -0500, John Hasler wrote:

 
  Or that a government that murders people...
 
 I.e., the usual kind.

Yes we all hear about how Uganda has fleets of drones stationed in
countries throughout the world killing people. There is nothing special
about America.

 
  ...wouldn't consider an OS that millions of people use worth looking
  at?
 
 Court orders (or just men with guns from governments that don't bother
 with courts) are sufficient to get them what they want from commercial
 servers, which is all they care about.
 
 Governments just don't give a damn about your desktop.  Sorry if that
 bruises your ego.  They may be interested in your email and Websurfing
 in the unlikely event that you are a person of interest, but they can
 get that from your provider.
 
 -- 
 John Hasler 
 jhas...@newsguy.com
 Elmwood, WI USA
 
 

If they don't care then how come they bother to go to the provider? By
using VPNs my provider rarely has any idea what I am doing. I do not
believe that I am some special person the government just has to know
all about, but I am concerned that it is convinced it has the right to
comb through and index everything everyone does on-line. 



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Re: wacky question

On Fri, 2013-06-21 at 16:36 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
 On Fri, 2013-06-21 at 16:22 +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
  On Jo, 20 iun 13, 18:41:42, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
   
   The USA and similar countries IMO aren't dangerous for most of us, since
   I suspect that less of us are terrorists. 
  
  Sorry, but I don't accept this argument. Just because we personally may 
  not be targeted is still no excuse to tolerate it when a government, any 
  government, is not respecting a person's rights.
 
 I agree with you, but they are still not dangerous for me, since I'm a
 German. If my own country will get even harmless data, it's different
 for me. I guess most us aren't from the USA, since this is an
 international mailing list. This thread, perhaps should be moved to the
 off-topic list?
 
 Regards,
 Ralf
 
 

Harmless data like what religious group you descend from? Something that
is considered innocuous today might be considered differently at a later
time by a less tolerant government.

I think most of this should be dropped or moved elsewhere, but I would
like the actual methods the debian project uses to protect itself from
systematic monitoring, data-collection or even hacking by governments or
other private organizations. I don't see that as being off topic for
this list.


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Re: wacky question

On Fri, 2013-06-21 at 00:52 +0800, lina wrote:
 On Friday 21,June,2013 12:41 AM, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
  The USA and similar countries IMO aren't dangerous for most of us, since
  I suspect that less of us are terrorists. China and similar countries
  are a problem, because they are dangerous for journalists etc..
 
 Old fashioned spy is out-of-date, and the journalists are doing the real
 spy things.
 
 

Enjoy life on planet party-line, I hope you are on the right side of
every purge!


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Re: wacky question

On Thu, 2013-06-20 at 20:40 +0200, Slavko wrote:
 Dňa 20.06.2013 17:12 Greg  wrote / napísal(a):
 
  I'm just wondering what debian does to check and protect its users, so
  fuck me, right?
 
 Your protection is your responsibility. The Debian (and other OS) can
 only help you with this. Of course, some can do it better and another
 no. An some can criminalize you, when you want to see what is inside (by
 license violation), but these last are then taking responsibility, but
 do you really want to loose your own responsibility?
 
 IMO, if you want to transmit your responsibility, you must select
 another model of OS, than Debian is.
 
 regards
 

So I have no right to ask to to even think about how software is built
or made available by debian? To protect myself I have but to debug every
line of code I use and build it all myself, on CPU's I forged in my
backyard smithy? Perhaps I could launch my own satellites to ensure safe
global access to a self-made internet. Iran has gone down that path,
perhaps we should all do likewise, or just go live in a cave or use
openbsd machines with the network cards pulled out? What if they get to
Theo? Then I'm done for!


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Re: wacky question

2013-06-21 Thread Lisi Reisz

On Friday 21 June 2013 22:07:01 Greg wrote:
  I agree with you, but they are still not dangerous for me, since I'm a
  German. If my own country will get even harmless data, it's different
  for me. I guess most us aren't from the USA, since this is an
  international mailing list. This thread, perhaps should be moved to the
  off-topic list?

You have missed the point, Ralf.  The USA government is collecting all its 
data, but it is only using the information for non-Americans.  I.e. for you 
and me.  Tor is beginning to sound more attractive by the email at the 
moment!

Lisi


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Re: wacky question

2013-06-21 Thread André Nunes Batista

If you care to open any decent book on computer security, you will note
that the first paragraph or so will state clearly that 100% security is
impossible, dreamish.

Cryptography + free software + steganography are to be used all
together, to greatly increase the boundaries. But if you think you will
find a 100% safe answer, you better join NSA.


-- 

Luther Blisset
GNUPG/PGP KEY: 6722CF80

I challenge you to play the game in which there is no loser but
everything is fun and worthwhile!



---BeginMessage---
On Thu, 2013-06-20 at 20:40 +0200, Slavko wrote:
 Dňa 20.06.2013 17:12 Greg  wrote / napísal(a):
 
  I'm just wondering what debian does to check and protect its users, so
  fuck me, right?
 
 Your protection is your responsibility. The Debian (and other OS) can
 only help you with this. Of course, some can do it better and another
 no. An some can criminalize you, when you want to see what is inside (by
 license violation), but these last are then taking responsibility, but
 do you really want to loose your own responsibility?
 
 IMO, if you want to transmit your responsibility, you must select
 another model of OS, than Debian is.
 
 regards
 

So I have no right to ask to to even think about how software is built
or made available by debian? To protect myself I have but to debug every
line of code I use and build it all myself, on CPU's I forged in my
backyard smithy? Perhaps I could launch my own satellites to ensure safe
global access to a self-made internet. Iran has gone down that path,
perhaps we should all do likewise, or just go live in a cave or use
openbsd machines with the network cards pulled out? What if they get to
Theo? Then I'm done for!


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Re: wacky question

2013-06-21 Thread Slavko

Dňa 21.06.2013 23:23 Greg  wrote / napísal(a):
 On Thu, 2013-06-20 at 20:40 +0200, Slavko wrote:
 Dňa 20.06.2013 17:12 Greg  wrote / napísal(a):

 I'm just wondering what debian does to check and protect its users, so
 fuck me, right?

 Your protection is your responsibility. The Debian (and other OS) can
 only help you with this. Of course, some can do it better and another
 no. An some can criminalize you, when you want to see what is inside (by
 license violation), but these last are then taking responsibility, but
 do you really want to loose your own responsibility?

 IMO, if you want to transmit your responsibility, you must select
 another model of OS, than Debian is.
 
 So I have no right to ask to to even think about how software is built
 or made available by debian? To protect myself I have but to debug every
 line of code I use and build it all myself, on CPU's I forged in my
 backyard smithy? Perhaps I could launch my own satellites to ensure safe
 global access to a self-made internet.
 ...

Are you read the GPL (and many other free licenses)? NO WARRANTY is
provided! Simple, you can use it, but at own responsibility.

Provided security level is only about goodwill. But what security level
provides Facebook (and similar)? And more and more people are using it,
despite the warnings. Is its low security taking its popularity? Is
Facebook's goodwill depended on its own security? IMHO no, its (and
others) popularity is based on the users naivety. And naive people are
good for today governments - they do not see, the do not hear, they do
not understand.

I was for years marked as paranoid, now my paranoia has name :-) But, i
need to trust to someone (as you are pointing). Simple, i trust to the
Debian's community, that if there will be security/privacy hole, it will
be investigated and reported - and quickly than with SSL :-)))

regards

-- 
Slavko
http://slavino.sk



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Re: wacky question

2013-06-21 Thread André Nunes Batista

Same here!

If you are trying to pursue security without thinking about trust
issues, either you are God or you believe there is one somewhere.
Someone who has all knowledge possible.

Well, they have designed just their first try on layman's eye.

-- 

Luther Blisset
GNUPG/PGP KEY: 6722CF80

I challenge you to play the game in which there is no loser but
everything is fun and worthwhile!



---BeginMessage---
Dňa 21.06.2013 23:23 Greg  wrote / napísal(a):
 On Thu, 2013-06-20 at 20:40 +0200, Slavko wrote:
 Dňa 20.06.2013 17:12 Greg  wrote / napísal(a):

 I'm just wondering what debian does to check and protect its users, so
 fuck me, right?

 Your protection is your responsibility. The Debian (and other OS) can
 only help you with this. Of course, some can do it better and another
 no. An some can criminalize you, when you want to see what is inside (by
 license violation), but these last are then taking responsibility, but
 do you really want to loose your own responsibility?

 IMO, if you want to transmit your responsibility, you must select
 another model of OS, than Debian is.
 
 So I have no right to ask to to even think about how software is built
 or made available by debian? To protect myself I have but to debug every
 line of code I use and build it all myself, on CPU's I forged in my
 backyard smithy? Perhaps I could launch my own satellites to ensure safe
 global access to a self-made internet.
 ...

Are you read the GPL (and many other free licenses)? NO WARRANTY is
provided! Simple, you can use it, but at own responsibility.

Provided security level is only about goodwill. But what security level
provides Facebook (and similar)? And more and more people are using it,
despite the warnings. Is its low security taking its popularity? Is
Facebook's goodwill depended on its own security? IMHO no, its (and
others) popularity is based on the users naivety. And naive people are
good for today governments - they do not see, the do not hear, they do
not understand.

I was for years marked as paranoid, now my paranoia has name :-) But, i
need to trust to someone (as you are pointing). Simple, i trust to the
Debian's community, that if there will be security/privacy hole, it will
be investigated and reported - and quickly than with SSL :-)))

regards

-- 
Slavko
http://slavino.sk



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---End Message---


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Re: wacky question

2013-06-21 Thread lina

On Saturday 22,June,2013 05:10 AM, Greg wrote:
  China and similar countries
   are a problem, because they are dangerous for journalists etc..
  
  Old fashioned spy is out-of-date, and the journalists are doing the real
  spy things.
  
  
 Enjoy life on planet party-line, I hope you are on the right side of
 every purge!


I just don't get from where China and similar countries are a problem,
because they are dangerous for journalists etc. this comes from.

I think China and most countries are fair to decent journalists. Not
dangerous.

If I remember correctly, even one month ago, the newspaper, include BBC
and also presidents meetings, they all claimed that China cyber
attacks. It was so serious seems. But the another side is that (from
today's BBC news http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-23012317 )

... has also alleged that US intelligence had been hacking into Chinese
computer networks.

He said he had decided to speak out after observing a continuing litany
of lies from senior officials to Congress.


I don't like some journalists, some works for BBC and NYT. How can they
be so right side of the article they wrote.

They could say, a blind massager as a self-taught lawer. And how
many times the activist being mis-used. Especially how true those
human right activist?

What is dangerous is that people take hooligan as holy fighter, and
gentleman as dictator. And what's more pathetic is that people are
easily following some other people's opinion.

To go deeper, before I felt it is the journalist immoral, but later I
realize that there is a deep reason behind that is that journalist
perhaps just to ingratiate readers. Then what's a mindset of the
people, to seek for the information the news prepared for them.






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Re: wacky question

2013-06-21 Thread Ralf Mardorf

N O T E :   I only cc'ed my reply to Debian user, I switched the thread
to d-community-offto...@lists.alioth.debian.org . Is this ok?

On Fri, 2013-06-21 at 16:52 -0400, Greg wrote:
 That might work for an actual terrorist, but I am a citizen and I do
 not think it is acceptable to have to act like a terrorist to keep my
 humble, everyday secrets private.

Full acknowledgement, btw. even such a terrorist computer setup in
practise isn't 100% safe, but just 80% or less, I anyway call it 100%.
We can't do anything against it. You can not really protect your data,
you only can protect your setup at home.

I didn't like Obama from the beginning, all bad I prophesied became
true. Not hard to do such a prophecy ;).

And btw. indignation of German politicians about Guantanamo or offending
data protection is histrionics.

We anyway can be happy, when we're living in a free western
civilisation. I don't say we're living in perfect nations. I've got a
criminal record, because I didn't join the German armed forces! However,
im my country you got a jail sentence for not joining the armed forces
(in a land that started 2 world wars, so I had a good reason not to join
it!), _but_ in other countries they kill people, if they don't join
their armies, they even force children to be soldiers. Around 25 years
later, since some years ago, Germans are free not to join the German
armed forces anymore. AFAIK in the USA they don't separate black and
white humans anymore ;), IOW progress is slowly measured on the lifespan
of men, but 20 or 50 years aren't that much. We don't have the wide
spread access to the Internet for a long enough time, we need some time
to civilize data protection. Let's do it without being paranoid or even
surprised _and_ without party activism :(, changing the world is work
and can't be done by parties or long line of demonstrators carrying
lights, that's just bullshit. If we know what companies are bad, we
should start not to buy from those companies, not to use their free
services, _if_ possible. If e.g. labor conditions are bad at Amazone,
the solution is easy. Don't order from Amazone and drop Ubuntu that
ships with menu links to Amazone etc., you even don't need to risk a
criminal record. But the party activist make anti-Amazone parties and
order the party supplies from Amazone. Have you ever joined a mailing
list of the Pirate party? I did, party people, they discredit their own
people who do real social/political work. At our last Pirate party I
talked to Mr. X, but he still works the things off he has to do, instead
of taking care about what I said to him on our last party.

Regards,
Ralf


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Re: counter-PRISM PRISM - Re: wacky question

2013-06-20 Thread Slavko

Hi,

 On 6/20/13, Greg greg...@att.net wrote:
 Does anyone think that debian could participate in any programs like
 PRISM? Or could a lone (or group of) sympathetic DD or DM slip a
 backdoor or something that could collect private info in the binary
 packages distributed by debian?

Sure, here is something, that collect info and send it to the Debian -
the popoularity contest... (yes, i see the differences)

Anybody can do anything - then yes, it is possible, that someone from
DD/DM can integrate something bad into some package. It is possible,
that backdoor is implemented by upstream author/contributor too, and it
is possible, that backdoor is in Linux kernel too.

But how long it will be in Debian? Because most of binaries in Debian
are provided with they sources, anybody can take look into it and then
anybody can find and report, that something is wrong ;-)

And yes, it is possible, that some of DD/DM are CIA (and similar)
followers. It is possible, but IMO not presumable, because i hope, that
there are not the people, which think, that the freedom and privacy is
for USA's inhabitants only...

regards

-- 
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http://slavino.sk


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Re: wacky question

2013-06-20 Thread Alan Ianson

On Wed, 19 Jun 2013 22:44:12 -0400
Greg wrote:

 Does anyone think that debian could participate in any programs like
 PRISM? Or could a lone (or group of) sympathetic DD or DM slip a
 backdoor or something that could collect private info in the binary
 packages distributed by debian?

Everything in debian has source available, so no, it can't be done
without everyone knowing it.


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Re: wacky question

2013-06-20 Thread Richard Hector

On 20/06/13 18:56, Alan Ianson wrote:
 On Wed, 19 Jun 2013 22:44:12 -0400
 Greg wrote:
 
 Does anyone think that debian could participate in any programs like
 PRISM? Or could a lone (or group of) sympathetic DD or DM slip a
 backdoor or something that could collect private info in the binary
 packages distributed by debian?
 
 Everything in debian has source available, so no, it can't be done
 without everyone knowing it.

Well, everyone who reads all the source. And trusts the compiler to not
insert back doors.

http://cm.bell-labs.com/who/ken/trust.html

Richard


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Re: counter-PRISM PRISM - Re: wacky question

2013-06-20 Thread Joe

On Thu, 20 Jun 2013 08:43:06 +0200
Slavko li...@slavino.sk wrote:

 Hi,
 
  On 6/20/13, Greg greg...@att.net wrote:
  Does anyone think that debian could participate in any programs like
  PRISM? Or could a lone (or group of) sympathetic DD or DM slip a
  backdoor or something that could collect private info in the binary
  packages distributed by debian?
 
 Sure, here is something, that collect info and send it to the Debian -
 the popoularity contest... (yes, i see the differences)
 
 Anybody can do anything - then yes, it is possible, that someone from
 DD/DM can integrate something bad into some package. It is possible,
 that backdoor is implemented by upstream author/contributor too, and
 it is possible, that backdoor is in Linux kernel too.
 
 But how long it will be in Debian? Because most of binaries in Debian
 are provided with they sources, anybody can take look into it and then
 anybody can find and report, that something is wrong ;-)
 

http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?TheKenThompsonHack

-- 
Joe


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Deterministic Builds (was [Re: wacky question])

2013-06-20 Thread Sean Alexandre

On Wed, Jun 19, 2013 at 10:44:12PM -0400, Greg wrote:
 Does anyone think that debian could participate in any programs like
 PRISM? Or could a lone (or group of) sympathetic DD or DM slip a
 backdoor or something that could collect private info in the binary
 packages distributed by debian?

There was an interesting post on this the other day on the liberationtech 
mailing list
by Mike Perry from the Tor Project:

Deterministic builds and software trust
https://mailman.stanford.edu/pipermail/liberationtech/2013-June/009257.html

To quote:

 For the past several years, we've been seeing a steady increase in the
 weaponization, stockpiling, and the use of exploits by multiple
 governments, and by multiple *areas* of multiple governments. This
 includes weaponized exploits specifically designed to bridge the air
 gap, by attacking software/hardware USB stacks, disconnected Bluetooth
 interfaces, disconnected Wifi interfaces, etc. Even if these exploits
 themselves don't leak (ha!), the fact that they are known to exist means
 that other parties can begin looking for them.

 In this brave new world, without the benefit of anonymity to protect
 oneself from such targeted attacks, I don't believe it is possible to
 keep a software-based GPG key secure anymore, nor do I believe it is
 possible to keep even an offline build machine secure from malware
 injection anymore, especially against the types of adversaries that Tor
 has to contend with.

 This means that software development has to evolve beyond the simple
 models of Trust my gpg-signed apt archive from my trusted build
 machine, or even projects like Debian going to end up distributing
 state-sponsored malware in short order.

 This is where deterministic builds come in...

He goes on to explain what deterministc builds are, how Tor has started using 
them,
and how hopefully Linux distros will as well.

Also related, Bruce Scheier just wrote an interesting piece on weaponized 
exploits, on 
how the NSA is planting logic bombs and backdoors in machines and routers 
around the 
world:

Has U.S. started an Internet war?
www.cnn.com/2013/06/18/opinion/schneier-cyberwar-policy


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Re: wacky question

2013-06-20 Thread Chris Bannister

On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 12:56:46PM +0800, lina wrote:
 On Thursday 20,June,2013 10:44 AM, Greg wrote:
  Does anyone think that debian could participate in any programs like
  PRISM? Or could a lone (or group of) sympathetic DD or DM slip a
  backdoor or something that could collect private info in the binary
  packages distributed by debian?
  
  
 
 Do you think that the brain of the laptop, one day will be sensitive
 enough, and have telepathy with yours. Or perhaps there will be a tiny
 gadget can sense your brain, read your mind so easily, as some sic-fi
 limns.

EEEK, I wouldn't like a mislaid thought reformatting my harddrive, or
even worse emailing undesirable messages. :) 

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X


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stopwatching.us petition (was ... Re: wacky question.)

2013-06-20 Thread Chris Bannister

On Wed, Jun 19, 2013 at 10:44:12PM -0400, Greg wrote:
 Does anyone think that debian could participate in any programs like
 PRISM? Or could a lone (or group of) sympathetic DD or DM slip a
 backdoor or something that could collect private info in the binary
 packages distributed by debian?

Since you have brought up the subject. :) Please visit 
http://stopwatching.us and sign the petition if you haven't already done
so. :)

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X


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Re: counter-PRISM PRISM - Re: wacky question

2013-06-20 Thread Chris Bannister

On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 01:08:12PM +1000, Zenaan Harkness wrote:
 
 A counter-PRISM PRISM? Now there's a tautological idea! :)

gnupg? Although, there is still the metadata in the message envelope, to
worry about.

-- 
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people
who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the 
oppressing. --- Malcolm X


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Re: wacky question

On Thu, 2013-06-20 at 12:56 +0800, lina wrote:
 On Thursday 20,June,2013 10:44 AM, Greg wrote:
  Does anyone think that debian could participate in any programs like
  PRISM? Or could a lone (or group of) sympathetic DD or DM slip a
  backdoor or something that could collect private info in the binary
  packages distributed by debian?
  
  
 
 Do you think that the brain of the laptop, one day will be sensitive
 enough, and have telepathy with yours. Or perhaps there will be a tiny
 gadget can sense your brain, read your mind so easily, as some sic-fi
 limns.
 
 
Only if the hippocampus of your laptop gets a virus, otherwise you are
safe. Thanks for being an asshat.


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Re: wacky question

On Wed, 2013-06-19 at 23:56 -0700, Alan Ianson wrote:
 On Wed, 19 Jun 2013 22:44:12 -0400
 Greg wrote:
 
  Does anyone think that debian could participate in any programs like
  PRISM? Or could a lone (or group of) sympathetic DD or DM slip a
  backdoor or something that could collect private info in the binary
  packages distributed by debian?
 
 Everything in debian has source available, so no, it can't be done
 without everyone knowing it.
 
 

So every line of code during every build is verified? So the build
machines could never possibly get hacked to compile with different code
than what is in a source package?

Or that a government that murders people (many of which it doesn't even
bother to identify first) with drones wouldn't consider an OS that
millions of people use worth looking at?

Or that debian is just automatically too smart to be hacked?

I'm just wondering what debian does to check and protect its users, so
fuck me, right?


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Re: wacky question , wacky thought

On Wed, 2013-06-19 at 22:26 -0600, Paul E Condon wrote:
 On 20130619_224412, Greg wrote:
  Does anyone think that debian could participate in any 
 programs like
  PRISM? Or could a lone (or group of) sympathetic DD or DM slip a
  backdoor or something that could collect private info in the binary
  packages distributed by debian?
 
 Maybe, way back, CIA and NSA brain storming dreamed up the idea of 
 interconnecting the whole world with a gigantic interconnected signaling 
 system that could be used to keep track of everybody everywhere without them 
 realizing they were being watched. They secretly gave money to college prof.s 
 of EE to invent it for the purpose of well intended mind control. Also, money 
 to support science labs. that generated lots of data, so that they would 
 invent techniques for handling really massive data sets. ;-)
 
 -- 
 Paul E Condon   
 pecon...@mesanetworks.net
 
 

An even wackier thought is that everyone would absolutely love
practically broadcasting their gps location, most of their private info
and the politically active would do most of their activism and organize
protests on a system with such an insecure system.

And we all know no host at debian.org has ever been hacked.


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Re: Deterministic Builds (was [Re: wacky question])

On Thu, 2013-06-20 at 03:32 -0400, Sean Alexandre wrote:

 There was an interesting post on this the other day on the liberationtech 
 mailing list
 by Mike Perry from the Tor Project:
 
 Deterministic builds and software trust
 https://mailman.stanford.edu/pipermail/liberationtech/2013-June/009257.html
 
 To quote:
 
  For the past several years, we've been seeing a steady increase in the
  weaponization, stockpiling, and the use of exploits by multiple
  governments, and by multiple *areas* of multiple governments. This
  includes weaponized exploits specifically designed to bridge the air
  gap, by attacking software/hardware USB stacks, disconnected Bluetooth
  interfaces, disconnected Wifi interfaces, etc. Even if these exploits
  themselves don't leak (ha!), the fact that they are known to exist means
  that other parties can begin looking for them.

 
 Also related, Bruce Scheier just wrote an interesting piece on weaponized 
 exploits, on 
 how the NSA is planting logic bombs and backdoors in machines and routers 
 around the 
 world:
 
 Has U.S. started an Internet war?
 www.cnn.com/2013/06/18/opinion/schneier-cyberwar-policy
 
 

Interesting links, thanks.


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Re: wacky question