Re: support on phonegap/cordova?
No, thats great, I just didn't see it. Thanks! On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 6:50 PM, Steven Gill stevengil...@gmail.com wrote: I added it as support under development in quicklinks. I can move it if you feel that is more appropriate. On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 3:13 PM, Michal Mocny mmo...@chromium.org wrote: Steven, thanks for the change. Would you mind also adding SO to the list of quick links under General? On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 2:45 PM, Steven Gill stevengil...@gmail.com wrote: This is complete now. Let me know if you guy see any other stuff I should change. I didn't see a reference to the phonegap irc channel on the site. On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 10:20 AM, Michal Mocny mmo...@chromium.org wrote: Fantastic, thanks Steven. On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 1:17 PM, Steven Gill stevengil...@gmail.com wrote: I was just creating an issue and was about to do it :P On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 10:14 AM, Michal Mocny mmo...@chromium.org wrote: Okay okay, so who is going to update the website? On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 11:42 AM, Carlos Santana csantan...@gmail.com wrote: I think having a user@ can be created, but in practice no value add 1. users will not use it (for various reasons already mentioned in this thread) 2. committers and subject matter experts will not use it to answer questions (if they do, just to copy paste a template use jira or SO) If the problem is that we don't trust SO to be there tomorrow and go offline, then lets implement an archive that backups all questions and answers tag with cordova and for that matter also backup the phonegap google group :-). IMHO I think SO and google groups are reliable ecosystems and they will not go down tomorrow, and if they are not around in 50 years that's fine if at least they are around for 6 months which is I think how long people have current issues and problems that are relevant to this project. On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 10:48 AM, Joe Bowser bows...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 5:33 AM, Shane Curcuru a...@shanecurcuru.org wrote: (not subscribed to list) Terrence brings up a critical point about how the Apache Way works: I knew that the Apache Way would be mentioned. Every time we have to do something that makes no sense, hurts or users, it's because of The Apache Way! The fact is that our users are not technically adept and I doubt that they could find a Cordova users list, and that if they found such a users list, most of them would eventually be stuck on that list forever because they wouldn't know how to unsubscribe from that list. Also, searching for anything on the archives of the Apache lists is extremely painful, and the only times I've seen that happen is when malicious Apache members want to go and smear the crap out of the project finding every time I've bashed the ASF and the Apache Way. I think most of our users will get frustrated by markmail and will either ask the same thing over and over again, even though it's in the docs or just leave. Can we for once actually think of our users and not how to mess them over with The Apache Way? -- Carlos Santana csantan...@gmail.com
Re: support on phonegap/cordova?
Looks great Steve, thanks! On Thu, Apr 17, 2014 at 8:13 AM, Michal Mocny mmo...@chromium.org wrote: No, thats great, I just didn't see it. Thanks! On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 6:50 PM, Steven Gill stevengil...@gmail.com wrote: I added it as support under development in quicklinks. I can move it if you feel that is more appropriate. On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 3:13 PM, Michal Mocny mmo...@chromium.org wrote: Steven, thanks for the change. Would you mind also adding SO to the list of quick links under General? On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 2:45 PM, Steven Gill stevengil...@gmail.com wrote: This is complete now. Let me know if you guy see any other stuff I should change. I didn't see a reference to the phonegap irc channel on the site. On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 10:20 AM, Michal Mocny mmo...@chromium.org wrote: Fantastic, thanks Steven. On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 1:17 PM, Steven Gill stevengil...@gmail.com wrote: I was just creating an issue and was about to do it :P On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 10:14 AM, Michal Mocny mmo...@chromium.org wrote: Okay okay, so who is going to update the website? On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 11:42 AM, Carlos Santana csantan...@gmail.com wrote: I think having a user@ can be created, but in practice no value add 1. users will not use it (for various reasons already mentioned in this thread) 2. committers and subject matter experts will not use it to answer questions (if they do, just to copy paste a template use jira or SO) If the problem is that we don't trust SO to be there tomorrow and go offline, then lets implement an archive that backups all questions and answers tag with cordova and for that matter also backup the phonegap google group :-). IMHO I think SO and google groups are reliable ecosystems and they will not go down tomorrow, and if they are not around in 50 years that's fine if at least they are around for 6 months which is I think how long people have current issues and problems that are relevant to this project. On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 10:48 AM, Joe Bowser bows...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 5:33 AM, Shane Curcuru a...@shanecurcuru.org wrote: (not subscribed to list) Terrence brings up a critical point about how the Apache Way works: I knew that the Apache Way would be mentioned. Every time we have to do something that makes no sense, hurts or users, it's because of The Apache Way! The fact is that our users are not technically adept and I doubt that they could find a Cordova users list, and that if they found such a users list, most of them would eventually be stuck on that list forever because they wouldn't know how to unsubscribe from that list. Also, searching for anything on the archives of the Apache lists is extremely painful, and the only times I've seen that happen is when malicious Apache members want to go and smear the crap out of the project finding every time I've bashed the ASF and the Apache Way. I think most of our users will get frustrated by markmail and will either ask the same thing over and over again, even though it's in the docs or just leave. Can we for once actually think of our users and not how to mess them over with The Apache Way? -- Carlos Santana csantan...@gmail.com
Re: support on phonegap/cordova?
(not subscribed to list) Terrence brings up a critical point about how the Apache Way works: Terence M. Bandoian (tere...@tmbsw.com) wrote: Date: Apr 15, 2014 10:40:46 am List: org.apache.incubator.callback-dev One nice thing about a mailing list is that it is delivered. The digest form provides an uncluttered, passive means to stay aware of issues and contribute when appropriate. I'm still new to this list but would like to listen in to the hangout if that's possible. How would I find it on Google Hangout? -Terence Bandoian The obvious point is the reminder that any discussions or potential decisions made in realtime fora must be brought back to the relevant mailing list to give everyone in the community a chance to digest and comment. In particular, decisions about new development need to be brought back to the dev@ list so that other committers can comment and participate in the decision process. The less obvious point - but just as important - is that while some may see mailing lists as old fashioned, they both foster a sense of a single community, as well as ensuring that contributors who aren't perhaps active every day can still both participate, and have an easy way to find out about past discussions and decisions. Similarly, when thinking about long term community health, one advantage to mailing lists is that the ASF controls the infrastructure. Our mailing lists and archives will be around... well, for at least the next 50 years. There is no such guarantee from stackoverflow - no matter how popular the site is, who's to say that they don't start monetizing with a login, or start dropping old support questions when the project is no longer popular? My typical response to a thread like this would be you need to have a users@ list and use it. I would still hope to see Apache Cordova have a user list, and I do echo other comments that once started, they tend to also attract new contributors - even if they're only users who help answer other users' questions. The point is that on single list there's a chance to build some community. Depending on the user base size and type of questions, I could also see linking to a StackOverflow site as well, in conjunction with a users@ list. Just some perspective from a long time Apache Way guy, - Shane
Re: support on phonegap/cordova?
On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 8:33 AM, Shane Curcuru a...@shanecurcuru.org wrote: (not subscribed to list) Terrence brings up a critical point about how the Apache Way works: Terence M. Bandoian (tere...@tmbsw.com) wrote: Date: Apr 15, 2014 10:40:46 am List: org.apache.incubator.callback-dev One nice thing about a mailing list is that it is delivered. The digest form provides an uncluttered, passive means to stay aware of issues and contribute when appropriate. I'm still new to this list but would like to listen in to the hangout if that's possible. How would I find it on Google Hangout? -Terence Bandoian The obvious point is the reminder that any discussions or potential decisions made in realtime fora must be brought back to the relevant mailing list to give everyone in the community a chance to digest and comment. In particular, decisions about new development need to be brought back to the dev@ list so that other committers can comment and participate in the decision process. The less obvious point - but just as important - is that while some may see mailing lists as old fashioned, they both foster a sense of a single community, as well as ensuring that contributors who aren't perhaps active every day can still both participate, and have an easy way to find out about past discussions and decisions. Similarly, when thinking about long term community health, one advantage to mailing lists is that the ASF controls the infrastructure. Our mailing lists and archives will be around... well, for at least the next 50 years. There is no such guarantee from stackoverflow - no matter how popular the site is, who's to say that they don't start monetizing with a login, or start dropping old support questions when the project is no longer popular? My typical response to a thread like this would be you need to have a users@ list and use it. I would still hope to see Apache Cordova have a user list, and I do echo other comments that once started, they tend to also attract new contributors - even if they're only users who help answer other users' questions. The point is that on single list there's a chance to build some community. Depending on the user base size and type of questions, I could also see linking to a StackOverflow site as well, in conjunction with a users@list. Just some perspective from a long time Apache Way guy, - Shane Shane, I agree with most of what you've said, but let's not confuse the roles of the dev@ and users@ lists -- we absolutely do make decisions on dev@cordova.a.o, and appreciate that it provides an important place for discussion about the project, and a place where everyone can contribute. Being archived, it's great that we can look back -- years back, if necessary -- and see the justifications behind particular actions. dev@ is a single forum where all of the important decisions are made, in public. It is clearly important that it be like this, or else there would never be a way to say with certainty this is all the discussion that has happened on this topic. The role of a potential users@ list, though, is not that; support issues are often transient, and there is much less value to a 50-year archive. (There's still some value to archiving and searchability, certainly). I could be wrong, but I don't see much value to even trying to force a single source for support questions -- people will ask questions wherever they are comfortable asking. And for searching, people aren't going to first navigate to the mailing list archives, and then search the archives -- people just don't do that anymore. They're going to open up their browser, type in a question, and their default search engine is going to return all of the results from the web -- whether from stackoverflow, users@, phonegap@, random blogs, or anywhere. The *only* important thing is that, in the places where people find to ask questions, there are people listening who can answer them. Without that, any forum is going to fail. Currently, phonegap@ is one such place, regardless of its unfortunate branding. stackoverflow is another great place. users@cordova wouldn't be, and it would be an uphill battle to even get people to start using it. We can put it in place, but we have to recognize that there will be a lot of work ahead to get it to be a part of the community. That doesn't come automatically.
Re: support on phonegap/cordova?
On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 5:33 AM, Shane Curcuru a...@shanecurcuru.org wrote: (not subscribed to list) Terrence brings up a critical point about how the Apache Way works: I knew that the Apache Way would be mentioned. Every time we have to do something that makes no sense, hurts or users, it's because of The Apache Way! The fact is that our users are not technically adept and I doubt that they could find a Cordova users list, and that if they found such a users list, most of them would eventually be stuck on that list forever because they wouldn't know how to unsubscribe from that list. Also, searching for anything on the archives of the Apache lists is extremely painful, and the only times I've seen that happen is when malicious Apache members want to go and smear the crap out of the project finding every time I've bashed the ASF and the Apache Way. I think most of our users will get frustrated by markmail and will either ask the same thing over and over again, even though it's in the docs or just leave. Can we for once actually think of our users and not how to mess them over with The Apache Way?
Re: support on phonegap/cordova?
I think having a user@ can be created, but in practice no value add 1. users will not use it (for various reasons already mentioned in this thread) 2. committers and subject matter experts will not use it to answer questions (if they do, just to copy paste a template use jira or SO) If the problem is that we don't trust SO to be there tomorrow and go offline, then lets implement an archive that backups all questions and answers tag with cordova and for that matter also backup the phonegap google group :-). IMHO I think SO and google groups are reliable ecosystems and they will not go down tomorrow, and if they are not around in 50 years that's fine if at least they are around for 6 months which is I think how long people have current issues and problems that are relevant to this project. On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 10:48 AM, Joe Bowser bows...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 5:33 AM, Shane Curcuru a...@shanecurcuru.org wrote: (not subscribed to list) Terrence brings up a critical point about how the Apache Way works: I knew that the Apache Way would be mentioned. Every time we have to do something that makes no sense, hurts or users, it's because of The Apache Way! The fact is that our users are not technically adept and I doubt that they could find a Cordova users list, and that if they found such a users list, most of them would eventually be stuck on that list forever because they wouldn't know how to unsubscribe from that list. Also, searching for anything on the archives of the Apache lists is extremely painful, and the only times I've seen that happen is when malicious Apache members want to go and smear the crap out of the project finding every time I've bashed the ASF and the Apache Way. I think most of our users will get frustrated by markmail and will either ask the same thing over and over again, even though it's in the docs or just leave. Can we for once actually think of our users and not how to mess them over with The Apache Way? -- Carlos Santana csantan...@gmail.com
Re: support on phonegap/cordova?
Okay okay, so who is going to update the website? On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 11:42 AM, Carlos Santana csantan...@gmail.comwrote: I think having a user@ can be created, but in practice no value add 1. users will not use it (for various reasons already mentioned in this thread) 2. committers and subject matter experts will not use it to answer questions (if they do, just to copy paste a template use jira or SO) If the problem is that we don't trust SO to be there tomorrow and go offline, then lets implement an archive that backups all questions and answers tag with cordova and for that matter also backup the phonegap google group :-). IMHO I think SO and google groups are reliable ecosystems and they will not go down tomorrow, and if they are not around in 50 years that's fine if at least they are around for 6 months which is I think how long people have current issues and problems that are relevant to this project. On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 10:48 AM, Joe Bowser bows...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 5:33 AM, Shane Curcuru a...@shanecurcuru.org wrote: (not subscribed to list) Terrence brings up a critical point about how the Apache Way works: I knew that the Apache Way would be mentioned. Every time we have to do something that makes no sense, hurts or users, it's because of The Apache Way! The fact is that our users are not technically adept and I doubt that they could find a Cordova users list, and that if they found such a users list, most of them would eventually be stuck on that list forever because they wouldn't know how to unsubscribe from that list. Also, searching for anything on the archives of the Apache lists is extremely painful, and the only times I've seen that happen is when malicious Apache members want to go and smear the crap out of the project finding every time I've bashed the ASF and the Apache Way. I think most of our users will get frustrated by markmail and will either ask the same thing over and over again, even though it's in the docs or just leave. Can we for once actually think of our users and not how to mess them over with The Apache Way? -- Carlos Santana csantan...@gmail.com
Re: support on phonegap/cordova?
I was just creating an issue and was about to do it :P On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 10:14 AM, Michal Mocny mmo...@chromium.org wrote: Okay okay, so who is going to update the website? On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 11:42 AM, Carlos Santana csantan...@gmail.com wrote: I think having a user@ can be created, but in practice no value add 1. users will not use it (for various reasons already mentioned in this thread) 2. committers and subject matter experts will not use it to answer questions (if they do, just to copy paste a template use jira or SO) If the problem is that we don't trust SO to be there tomorrow and go offline, then lets implement an archive that backups all questions and answers tag with cordova and for that matter also backup the phonegap google group :-). IMHO I think SO and google groups are reliable ecosystems and they will not go down tomorrow, and if they are not around in 50 years that's fine if at least they are around for 6 months which is I think how long people have current issues and problems that are relevant to this project. On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 10:48 AM, Joe Bowser bows...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 5:33 AM, Shane Curcuru a...@shanecurcuru.org wrote: (not subscribed to list) Terrence brings up a critical point about how the Apache Way works: I knew that the Apache Way would be mentioned. Every time we have to do something that makes no sense, hurts or users, it's because of The Apache Way! The fact is that our users are not technically adept and I doubt that they could find a Cordova users list, and that if they found such a users list, most of them would eventually be stuck on that list forever because they wouldn't know how to unsubscribe from that list. Also, searching for anything on the archives of the Apache lists is extremely painful, and the only times I've seen that happen is when malicious Apache members want to go and smear the crap out of the project finding every time I've bashed the ASF and the Apache Way. I think most of our users will get frustrated by markmail and will either ask the same thing over and over again, even though it's in the docs or just leave. Can we for once actually think of our users and not how to mess them over with The Apache Way? -- Carlos Santana csantan...@gmail.com
Re: support on phonegap/cordova?
Fantastic, thanks Steven. On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 1:17 PM, Steven Gill stevengil...@gmail.com wrote: I was just creating an issue and was about to do it :P On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 10:14 AM, Michal Mocny mmo...@chromium.org wrote: Okay okay, so who is going to update the website? On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 11:42 AM, Carlos Santana csantan...@gmail.com wrote: I think having a user@ can be created, but in practice no value add 1. users will not use it (for various reasons already mentioned in this thread) 2. committers and subject matter experts will not use it to answer questions (if they do, just to copy paste a template use jira or SO) If the problem is that we don't trust SO to be there tomorrow and go offline, then lets implement an archive that backups all questions and answers tag with cordova and for that matter also backup the phonegap google group :-). IMHO I think SO and google groups are reliable ecosystems and they will not go down tomorrow, and if they are not around in 50 years that's fine if at least they are around for 6 months which is I think how long people have current issues and problems that are relevant to this project. On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 10:48 AM, Joe Bowser bows...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 5:33 AM, Shane Curcuru a...@shanecurcuru.org wrote: (not subscribed to list) Terrence brings up a critical point about how the Apache Way works: I knew that the Apache Way would be mentioned. Every time we have to do something that makes no sense, hurts or users, it's because of The Apache Way! The fact is that our users are not technically adept and I doubt that they could find a Cordova users list, and that if they found such a users list, most of them would eventually be stuck on that list forever because they wouldn't know how to unsubscribe from that list. Also, searching for anything on the archives of the Apache lists is extremely painful, and the only times I've seen that happen is when malicious Apache members want to go and smear the crap out of the project finding every time I've bashed the ASF and the Apache Way. I think most of our users will get frustrated by markmail and will either ask the same thing over and over again, even though it's in the docs or just leave. Can we for once actually think of our users and not how to mess them over with The Apache Way? -- Carlos Santana csantan...@gmail.com
Re: support on phonegap/cordova?
This is complete now. Let me know if you guy see any other stuff I should change. I didn't see a reference to the phonegap irc channel on the site. On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 10:20 AM, Michal Mocny mmo...@chromium.org wrote: Fantastic, thanks Steven. On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 1:17 PM, Steven Gill stevengil...@gmail.com wrote: I was just creating an issue and was about to do it :P On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 10:14 AM, Michal Mocny mmo...@chromium.org wrote: Okay okay, so who is going to update the website? On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 11:42 AM, Carlos Santana csantan...@gmail.com wrote: I think having a user@ can be created, but in practice no value add 1. users will not use it (for various reasons already mentioned in this thread) 2. committers and subject matter experts will not use it to answer questions (if they do, just to copy paste a template use jira or SO) If the problem is that we don't trust SO to be there tomorrow and go offline, then lets implement an archive that backups all questions and answers tag with cordova and for that matter also backup the phonegap google group :-). IMHO I think SO and google groups are reliable ecosystems and they will not go down tomorrow, and if they are not around in 50 years that's fine if at least they are around for 6 months which is I think how long people have current issues and problems that are relevant to this project. On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 10:48 AM, Joe Bowser bows...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 5:33 AM, Shane Curcuru a...@shanecurcuru.org wrote: (not subscribed to list) Terrence brings up a critical point about how the Apache Way works: I knew that the Apache Way would be mentioned. Every time we have to do something that makes no sense, hurts or users, it's because of The Apache Way! The fact is that our users are not technically adept and I doubt that they could find a Cordova users list, and that if they found such a users list, most of them would eventually be stuck on that list forever because they wouldn't know how to unsubscribe from that list. Also, searching for anything on the archives of the Apache lists is extremely painful, and the only times I've seen that happen is when malicious Apache members want to go and smear the crap out of the project finding every time I've bashed the ASF and the Apache Way. I think most of our users will get frustrated by markmail and will either ask the same thing over and over again, even though it's in the docs or just leave. Can we for once actually think of our users and not how to mess them over with The Apache Way? -- Carlos Santana csantan...@gmail.com
Re: support on phonegap/cordova?
Steven, thanks for the change. Would you mind also adding SO to the list of quick links under General? On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 2:45 PM, Steven Gill stevengil...@gmail.com wrote: This is complete now. Let me know if you guy see any other stuff I should change. I didn't see a reference to the phonegap irc channel on the site. On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 10:20 AM, Michal Mocny mmo...@chromium.org wrote: Fantastic, thanks Steven. On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 1:17 PM, Steven Gill stevengil...@gmail.com wrote: I was just creating an issue and was about to do it :P On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 10:14 AM, Michal Mocny mmo...@chromium.org wrote: Okay okay, so who is going to update the website? On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 11:42 AM, Carlos Santana csantan...@gmail.com wrote: I think having a user@ can be created, but in practice no value add 1. users will not use it (for various reasons already mentioned in this thread) 2. committers and subject matter experts will not use it to answer questions (if they do, just to copy paste a template use jira or SO) If the problem is that we don't trust SO to be there tomorrow and go offline, then lets implement an archive that backups all questions and answers tag with cordova and for that matter also backup the phonegap google group :-). IMHO I think SO and google groups are reliable ecosystems and they will not go down tomorrow, and if they are not around in 50 years that's fine if at least they are around for 6 months which is I think how long people have current issues and problems that are relevant to this project. On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 10:48 AM, Joe Bowser bows...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 5:33 AM, Shane Curcuru a...@shanecurcuru.org wrote: (not subscribed to list) Terrence brings up a critical point about how the Apache Way works: I knew that the Apache Way would be mentioned. Every time we have to do something that makes no sense, hurts or users, it's because of The Apache Way! The fact is that our users are not technically adept and I doubt that they could find a Cordova users list, and that if they found such a users list, most of them would eventually be stuck on that list forever because they wouldn't know how to unsubscribe from that list. Also, searching for anything on the archives of the Apache lists is extremely painful, and the only times I've seen that happen is when malicious Apache members want to go and smear the crap out of the project finding every time I've bashed the ASF and the Apache Way. I think most of our users will get frustrated by markmail and will either ask the same thing over and over again, even though it's in the docs or just leave. Can we for once actually think of our users and not how to mess them over with The Apache Way? -- Carlos Santana csantan...@gmail.com
Re: support on phonegap/cordova?
I added it as support under development in quicklinks. I can move it if you feel that is more appropriate. On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 3:13 PM, Michal Mocny mmo...@chromium.org wrote: Steven, thanks for the change. Would you mind also adding SO to the list of quick links under General? On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 2:45 PM, Steven Gill stevengil...@gmail.com wrote: This is complete now. Let me know if you guy see any other stuff I should change. I didn't see a reference to the phonegap irc channel on the site. On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 10:20 AM, Michal Mocny mmo...@chromium.org wrote: Fantastic, thanks Steven. On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 1:17 PM, Steven Gill stevengil...@gmail.com wrote: I was just creating an issue and was about to do it :P On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 10:14 AM, Michal Mocny mmo...@chromium.org wrote: Okay okay, so who is going to update the website? On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 11:42 AM, Carlos Santana csantan...@gmail.com wrote: I think having a user@ can be created, but in practice no value add 1. users will not use it (for various reasons already mentioned in this thread) 2. committers and subject matter experts will not use it to answer questions (if they do, just to copy paste a template use jira or SO) If the problem is that we don't trust SO to be there tomorrow and go offline, then lets implement an archive that backups all questions and answers tag with cordova and for that matter also backup the phonegap google group :-). IMHO I think SO and google groups are reliable ecosystems and they will not go down tomorrow, and if they are not around in 50 years that's fine if at least they are around for 6 months which is I think how long people have current issues and problems that are relevant to this project. On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 10:48 AM, Joe Bowser bows...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Apr 16, 2014 at 5:33 AM, Shane Curcuru a...@shanecurcuru.org wrote: (not subscribed to list) Terrence brings up a critical point about how the Apache Way works: I knew that the Apache Way would be mentioned. Every time we have to do something that makes no sense, hurts or users, it's because of The Apache Way! The fact is that our users are not technically adept and I doubt that they could find a Cordova users list, and that if they found such a users list, most of them would eventually be stuck on that list forever because they wouldn't know how to unsubscribe from that list. Also, searching for anything on the archives of the Apache lists is extremely painful, and the only times I've seen that happen is when malicious Apache members want to go and smear the crap out of the project finding every time I've bashed the ASF and the Apache Way. I think most of our users will get frustrated by markmail and will either ask the same thing over and over again, even though it's in the docs or just leave. Can we for once actually think of our users and not how to mess them over with The Apache Way? -- Carlos Santana csantan...@gmail.com
Re: support on phonegap/cordova?
I think that between a users@ mailing list, a google group, an IRC room, and StackOverflow, the best medium we can use to support our users is StackOverflow. Joe makes great points about the benefits that StackOverflow gives us that I don't see the other mediums providing. Sure the GG may be searchable but not nearly as well as SO. Also, there are already a lot of Cordova users helping each other out on SO (only 4 of the top 20 answerers are on this list [1]) SO also will automatically switch phonegap to cordova tag but still allow things like phonegap-build or phonegap-enterprise or whatever - nothing against phonegap, this just seems to be more inline with the Apache Way and would help Adobe support find relevant issues to them while letting the the overall community work on the more general support questions. If we have to have a users@, so be it, but we should make it a point to answer all questions there with a link to the relevant Stack Overflow answer. I think we should also be doing this on the google group too, but I'll be the first to admit that I haven't been. Finally I know there is a lot of push back about getting rid of / encouraging less use of the google group because a lot of people use it and apparently get a lot of their issues fixed, however it seems like either the majority of the questions never get answered, or they get answered by a few users. We should maybe reach out to these power users and explain to them the motivation behind trying to move all support off the GG and into SO and encourage them to help with this transition. [1] http://stackoverflow.com/tags/cordova/topusers On Mon, Apr 14, 2014 at 5:03 PM, Joe Bowser bows...@gmail.com wrote: The reasons I prefer stack overflow to users lists are as follows: 1. Most of our users aren't skilled enough to get on or off of a users list 2. Stack Overflow's structure keeps things more professional than the mailing list. Personal attacks get downvoted on SO 3. Stack Overflow has better searchibility than a users list. If we have to have one because of the much loathed Apache Way, so be it, but I don't see it being nearly as helpful as SO. On Mon, Apr 14, 2014 at 1:15 PM, Andrew Grieve agri...@chromium.org wrote: Most Apache projects have a users@ list for this purpose. Although SO often yields better answers, I don't think it would hurt to have a users@list. On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 9:09 AM, Joe Bowser bows...@gmail.com wrote: This is a dev list, not a support list. I would recommend StackOverflow. On Apr 9, 2014 3:16 PM, Andrew Grieve agri...@chromium.org wrote: StackOverflow works really well as well. If it's a possible but in the framework or an Apache plugin though, this is the list :) On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 6:21 AM, Ray Camden rayca...@adobe.com wrote: I'd use the Google Group: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/phonegap From: smo s.la...@gmail.com Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2014 2:35 AM To: dev@cordova.apache.org Subject: support on phonegap/cordova? hi where must i post to get support on phonegap/cordova ios ? thanks
Re: support on phonegap/cordova?
So first: we don't *have* have to have users@ list. This isn't about apache way at all, this is in response to several user inquiries asking for a user list to point them to. Seems no one is looking forward to more email, but I'd be satisfied to have a users@ list from which we direct people over to SO, since some people don't yet know about SO and/or expect a mailing list when they go looking. The most important action item I think is to update the website, since right now we only list the dev, commits, and issues mailing lists listed, and a small note about the phonegap forum for user questions (and that was hard to find without grep-ing). -Michal On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 8:06 AM, Mike Billau mike.bil...@gmail.com wrote: I think that between a users@ mailing list, a google group, an IRC room, and StackOverflow, the best medium we can use to support our users is StackOverflow. Joe makes great points about the benefits that StackOverflow gives us that I don't see the other mediums providing. Sure the GG may be searchable but not nearly as well as SO. Also, there are already a lot of Cordova users helping each other out on SO (only 4 of the top 20 answerers are on this list [1]) SO also will automatically switch phonegap to cordova tag but still allow things like phonegap-build or phonegap-enterprise or whatever - nothing against phonegap, this just seems to be more inline with the Apache Way and would help Adobe support find relevant issues to them while letting the the overall community work on the more general support questions. If we have to have a users@, so be it, but we should make it a point to answer all questions there with a link to the relevant Stack Overflow answer. I think we should also be doing this on the google group too, but I'll be the first to admit that I haven't been. Finally I know there is a lot of push back about getting rid of / encouraging less use of the google group because a lot of people use it and apparently get a lot of their issues fixed, however it seems like either the majority of the questions never get answered, or they get answered by a few users. We should maybe reach out to these power users and explain to them the motivation behind trying to move all support off the GG and into SO and encourage them to help with this transition. [1] http://stackoverflow.com/tags/cordova/topusers On Mon, Apr 14, 2014 at 5:03 PM, Joe Bowser bows...@gmail.com wrote: The reasons I prefer stack overflow to users lists are as follows: 1. Most of our users aren't skilled enough to get on or off of a users list 2. Stack Overflow's structure keeps things more professional than the mailing list. Personal attacks get downvoted on SO 3. Stack Overflow has better searchibility than a users list. If we have to have one because of the much loathed Apache Way, so be it, but I don't see it being nearly as helpful as SO. On Mon, Apr 14, 2014 at 1:15 PM, Andrew Grieve agri...@chromium.org wrote: Most Apache projects have a users@ list for this purpose. Although SO often yields better answers, I don't think it would hurt to have a users@list. On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 9:09 AM, Joe Bowser bows...@gmail.com wrote: This is a dev list, not a support list. I would recommend StackOverflow. On Apr 9, 2014 3:16 PM, Andrew Grieve agri...@chromium.org wrote: StackOverflow works really well as well. If it's a possible but in the framework or an Apache plugin though, this is the list :) On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 6:21 AM, Ray Camden rayca...@adobe.com wrote: I'd use the Google Group: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/phonegap From: smo s.la...@gmail.com Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2014 2:35 AM To: dev@cordova.apache.org Subject: support on phonegap/cordova? hi where must i post to get support on phonegap/cordova ios ? thanks
Re: support on phonegap/cordova?
On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 9:49 AM, Michal Mocny mmo...@chromium.org wrote: So first: we don't *have* have to have users@ list. This isn't about apache way at all, this is in response to several user inquiries asking for a user list to point them to. Exactly this. Talking to ASF folks in Denver last week, there really aren't many hard requirements on us, and a users@ list definitely isn't one of them. (http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/ has a big list of all of the lists that Apache projects run, and certainly not all of them have a users list) We talked at the conference about asking infra@ for a users list, but this was more about the Cordova vs. PhoneGap branding, and answering the question How do I get help with Cordova? with something other than You need to ask about PhoneGap. The PhoneGap group certainly made sense when PhoneGap was the brand, and probably still made sense when the name changed, but makes less sense every day, as there are more and more people using the open source project, who may have never heard of PhoneGap, the product. (Also, it's odd to direct people to a Google group about an Adobe product when they're working with an Apache open source project :) ) Seems no one is looking forward to more email, but I'd be satisfied to have a users@ list from which we direct people over to SO, since some people don't yet know about SO and/or expect a mailing list when they go looking. The most important action item I think is to update the website, since right now we only list the dev, commits, and issues mailing lists listed, and a small note about the phonegap forum for user questions (and that was hard to find without grep-ing). -Michal On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 8:06 AM, Mike Billau mike.bil...@gmail.com wrote: I think that between a users@ mailing list, a google group, an IRC room, and StackOverflow, the best medium we can use to support our users is StackOverflow. Joe makes great points about the benefits that StackOverflow gives us that I don't see the other mediums providing. Sure the GG may be searchable but not nearly as well as SO. Also, there are already a lot of Cordova users helping each other out on SO (only 4 of the top 20 answerers are on this list [1]) SO also will automatically switch phonegap to cordova tag but still allow things like phonegap-build or phonegap-enterprise or whatever - nothing against phonegap, this just seems to be more inline with the Apache Way and would help Adobe support find relevant issues to them while letting the the overall community work on the more general support questions. If we have to have a users@, so be it, but we should make it a point to answer all questions there with a link to the relevant Stack Overflow answer. I think we should also be doing this on the google group too, but I'll be the first to admit that I haven't been. Finally I know there is a lot of push back about getting rid of / encouraging less use of the google group because a lot of people use it and apparently get a lot of their issues fixed, however it seems like either the majority of the questions never get answered, or they get answered by a few users. We should maybe reach out to these power users and explain to them the motivation behind trying to move all support off the GG and into SO and encourage them to help with this transition. [1] http://stackoverflow.com/tags/cordova/topusers On Mon, Apr 14, 2014 at 5:03 PM, Joe Bowser bows...@gmail.com wrote: The reasons I prefer stack overflow to users lists are as follows: 1. Most of our users aren't skilled enough to get on or off of a users list 2. Stack Overflow's structure keeps things more professional than the mailing list. Personal attacks get downvoted on SO 3. Stack Overflow has better searchibility than a users list. If we have to have one because of the much loathed Apache Way, so be it, but I don't see it being nearly as helpful as SO. On Mon, Apr 14, 2014 at 1:15 PM, Andrew Grieve agri...@chromium.org wrote: Most Apache projects have a users@ list for this purpose. Although SO often yields better answers, I don't think it would hurt to have a users@list. On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 9:09 AM, Joe Bowser bows...@gmail.com wrote: This is a dev list, not a support list. I would recommend StackOverflow. On Apr 9, 2014 3:16 PM, Andrew Grieve agri...@chromium.org wrote: StackOverflow works really well as well. If it's a possible but in the framework or an Apache plugin though, this is the list :) On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 6:21 AM, Ray Camden rayca...@adobe.com wrote: I'd use the Google Group: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/phonegap From: smo s.la...@gmail.com Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2014 2:35 AM To:
Re: support on phonegap/cordova?
Michal +1. 1. Create a user@ group that we use to encourage users to post questions on SO. 2. Update website to remove reference to PhoneGap Google Group and include reference to the user@ mailing list 3. remove the IRC #phonegap reference as well Is everyone in agreement on this? Do we need to add an item to our hangout agenda today to discuss further? Lisa Seacat DeLuca Mobile Engineer | t: +415.787.4589 | ldel...@apache.org | | ldel...@us.ibm.com | lisaseacat.com | | From: Michal Mocny mmo...@chromium.org To: dev dev@cordova.apache.org Date: 04/15/2014 09:50 AM Subject:Re: support on phonegap/cordova? Sent by:mmo...@google.com So first: we don't *have* have to have users@ list. This isn't about apache way at all, this is in response to several user inquiries asking for a user list to point them to. Seems no one is looking forward to more email, but I'd be satisfied to have a users@ list from which we direct people over to SO, since some people don't yet know about SO and/or expect a mailing list when they go looking. The most important action item I think is to update the website, since right now we only list the dev, commits, and issues mailing lists listed, and a small note about the phonegap forum for user questions (and that was hard to find without grep-ing). -Michal On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 8:06 AM, Mike Billau mike.bil...@gmail.com wrote: I think that between a users@ mailing list, a google group, an IRC room, and StackOverflow, the best medium we can use to support our users is StackOverflow. Joe makes great points about the benefits that StackOverflow gives us that I don't see the other mediums providing. Sure the GG may be searchable but not nearly as well as SO. Also, there are already a lot of Cordova users helping each other out on SO (only 4 of the top 20 answerers are on this list [1]) SO also will automatically switch phonegap to cordova tag but still allow things like phonegap-build or phonegap-enterprise or whatever - nothing against phonegap, this just seems to be more inline with the Apache Way and would help Adobe support find relevant issues to them while letting the the overall community work on the more general support questions. If we have to have a users@, so be it, but we should make it a point to answer all questions there with a link to the relevant Stack Overflow answer. I think we should also be doing this on the google group too, but I'll be the first to admit that I haven't been. Finally I know there is a lot of push back about getting rid of / encouraging less use of the google group because a lot of people use it and apparently get a lot of their issues fixed, however it seems like either the majority of the questions never get answered, or they get answered by a few users. We should maybe reach out to these power users and explain to them the motivation behind trying to move all support off the GG and into SO and encourage them to help with this transition. [1] http://stackoverflow.com/tags/cordova/topusers On Mon, Apr 14, 2014 at 5:03 PM, Joe Bowser bows...@gmail.com wrote: The reasons I prefer stack overflow to users lists are as follows: 1. Most of our users aren't skilled enough to get on or off of a users list 2. Stack Overflow's structure keeps things more professional than the mailing list. Personal attacks get downvoted on SO 3. Stack Overflow has better searchibility than a users list. If we have to have one because of the much loathed Apache Way, so be it, but I don't see it being nearly as helpful as SO. On Mon, Apr 14, 2014 at 1:15 PM, Andrew Grieve agri...@chromium.org wrote: Most Apache projects have a users@ list for this purpose. Although SO often yields better answers, I don't think it would hurt to have a users@list. On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 9:09 AM, Joe Bowser bows...@gmail.com wrote: This is a dev list, not a support list. I would recommend StackOverflow. On Apr 9, 2014 3:16 PM, Andrew Grieve agri...@chromium.org wrote: StackOverflow works really well as well. If it's a possible but in the framework or an Apache plugin though, this is the list :) On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 6:21 AM, Ray Camden rayca...@adobe.com wrote: I'd use the Google Group: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/phonegap From: smo s.la...@gmail.com Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2014 2:35 AM To: dev@cordova.apache.org Subject: support on phonegap/cordova? hi where must i post to get support on phonegap/cordova ios ? thanks
Re: support on phonegap/cordova?
On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Lisa Seacat DeLuca ldel...@us.ibm.comwrote: Michal +1. 1. Create a user@ group that we use to encourage users to post questions on SO. Well this is the question, isn't it :) Ian nails the root question as How do I get help with Cordova? with an answer other than You need to ask about PhoneGap. But we seem to all agree that SO is better than users@. So: I'd just start with an update the website, and see what happens. If we find that we really do a need an ML (hey, we haven't so far), then we can reinvestigate. Is that fair? 2. Update website to remove reference to PhoneGap Google Group and include reference to the user@ mailing list I'd leave a reference to the existing phonegap group, for those that want to search its history or whatnot. We just need a general section on the front page on how to find help/support and explain the primary source is SO. We could also start to try to direct traffic from the PG Group to SO, but I leave that to those that actually moderate that list to decide. 3. remove the IRC #phonegap reference as well I'm indifferent here. I suspect most folks who actually know how to use irc know how to find the channel ;) so maybe we don't need to refer to it. But I'm not opposed to calling out that we do have an irc channel, and I certainly wouldn't want to split audience across #phonegap and #cordova. Is everyone in agreement on this? Do we need to add an item to our hangout agenda today to discuss further? May as well mention it for those who are not caught up on email. I hope this won't need more than 3 minutes. Lisa Seacat DeLuca Mobile Engineer | t: +415.787.4589 | *ldel...@apache.org*ldel...@apache.org| | *ldel...@us.ibm.com* ldel...@us.ibm.com | *lisaseacat.com*http://www.lisaseacat.com/| [image: follow @LisaSeacat on twitter] http://www.twitter.com/LisaSeacat| [image: follow Lisa Seacat DeLuca on linkedin]http://www.linkedin.com/in/lisaseacat From:Michal Mocny mmo...@chromium.org To:dev dev@cordova.apache.org Date:04/15/2014 09:50 AM Subject:Re: support on phonegap/cordova? Sent by:mmo...@google.com -- So first: we don't *have* have to have users@ list. This isn't about apache way at all, this is in response to several user inquiries asking for a user list to point them to. Seems no one is looking forward to more email, but I'd be satisfied to have a users@ list from which we direct people over to SO, since some people don't yet know about SO and/or expect a mailing list when they go looking. The most important action item I think is to update the website, since right now we only list the dev, commits, and issues mailing lists listed, and a small note about the phonegap forum for user questions (and that was hard to find without grep-ing). -Michal On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 8:06 AM, Mike Billau mike.bil...@gmail.com wrote: I think that between a users@ mailing list, a google group, an IRC room, and StackOverflow, the best medium we can use to support our users is StackOverflow. Joe makes great points about the benefits that StackOverflow gives us that I don't see the other mediums providing. Sure the GG may be searchable but not nearly as well as SO. Also, there are already a lot of Cordova users helping each other out on SO (only 4 of the top 20 answerers are on this list [1]) SO also will automatically switch phonegap to cordova tag but still allow things like phonegap-build or phonegap-enterprise or whatever - nothing against phonegap, this just seems to be more inline with the Apache Way and would help Adobe support find relevant issues to them while letting the the overall community work on the more general support questions. If we have to have a users@, so be it, but we should make it a point to answer all questions there with a link to the relevant Stack Overflow answer. I think we should also be doing this on the google group too, but I'll be the first to admit that I haven't been. Finally I know there is a lot of push back about getting rid of / encouraging less use of the google group because a lot of people use it and apparently get a lot of their issues fixed, however it seems like either the majority of the questions never get answered, or they get answered by a few users. We should maybe reach out to these power users and explain to them the motivation behind trying to move all support off the GG and into SO and encourage them to help with this transition. [1] http://stackoverflow.com/tags/cordova/topusers On Mon, Apr 14, 2014 at 5:03 PM, Joe Bowser bows...@gmail.com wrote: The reasons I prefer stack overflow to users lists are as follows: 1. Most of our users aren't skilled enough to get on or off of a users list 2. Stack Overflow's structure keeps things more professional than the mailing list. Personal
Re: support on phonegap/cordova?
stay tuned on the ML thread with subject Hangout Today @ 4:00 EST. I will post the link there once we're set up. On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 9:41 AM, Terence M. Bandoian tere...@tmbsw.com wrote: One nice thing about a mailing list is that it is delivered. The digest form provides an uncluttered, passive means to stay aware of issues and contribute when appropriate. I'm still new to this list but would like to listen in to the hangout if that's possible. How would I find it on Google Hangout? -Terence Bandoian On 4/15/2014 9:31 AM, Lisa Seacat DeLuca wrote: Michal +1. 1. Create a user@ group that we use to encourage users to post questions on SO. 2. Update website to remove reference to PhoneGap Google Group and include reference to the user@ mailing list 3. remove the IRC #phonegap reference as well Is everyone in agreement on this? Do we need to add an item to our hangout agenda today to discuss further? Lisa Seacat DeLuca Mobile Engineer | t: +415.787.4589 | _ldeluca@apache.org_ mailto:ldel...@apache.org| | _ldel...@us.ibm.com_ mailto:ldel...@us.ibm.com| _lisaseacat.com_ http://www.lisaseacat.com/| follow @LisaSeacat on twitter www.twitter.com/LisaSeacat| follow Lisa Seacat DeLuca on linkedin http://www.linkedin.com/in/lisaseacat From: Michal Mocny mmo...@chromium.org To: dev dev@cordova.apache.org Date: 04/15/2014 09:50 AM Subject: Re: support on phonegap/cordova? Sent by: mmo...@google.com So first: we don't *have* have to have users@ list. This isn't about apache way at all, this is in response to several user inquiries asking for a user list to point them to. Seems no one is looking forward to more email, but I'd be satisfied to have a users@ list from which we direct people over to SO, since some people don't yet know about SO and/or expect a mailing list when they go looking. The most important action item I think is to update the website, since right now we only list the dev, commits, and issues mailing lists listed, and a small note about the phonegap forum for user questions (and that was hard to find without grep-ing). -Michal On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 8:06 AM, Mike Billau mike.bil...@gmail.com wrote: I think that between a users@ mailing list, a google group, an IRC room, and StackOverflow, the best medium we can use to support our users is StackOverflow. Joe makes great points about the benefits that StackOverflow gives us that I don't see the other mediums providing. Sure the GG may be searchable but not nearly as well as SO. Also, there are already a lot of Cordova users helping each other out on SO (only 4 of the top 20 answerers are on this list [1]) SO also will automatically switch phonegap to cordova tag but still allow things like phonegap-build or phonegap-enterprise or whatever - nothing against phonegap, this just seems to be more inline with the Apache Way and would help Adobe support find relevant issues to them while letting the the overall community work on the more general support questions. If we have to have a users@, so be it, but we should make it a point to answer all questions there with a link to the relevant Stack Overflow answer. I think we should also be doing this on the google group too, but I'll be the first to admit that I haven't been. Finally I know there is a lot of push back about getting rid of / encouraging less use of the google group because a lot of people use it and apparently get a lot of their issues fixed, however it seems like either the majority of the questions never get answered, or they get answered by a few users. We should maybe reach out to these power users and explain to them the motivation behind trying to move all support off the GG and into SO and encourage them to help with this transition. [1] http://stackoverflow.com/tags/cordova/topusers On Mon, Apr 14, 2014 at 5:03 PM, Joe Bowser bows...@gmail.com wrote: The reasons I prefer stack overflow to users lists are as follows: 1. Most of our users aren't skilled enough to get on or off of a users list 2. Stack Overflow's structure keeps things more professional than the mailing list. Personal attacks get downvoted on SO 3. Stack Overflow has better searchibility than a users list. If we have to have one because of the much loathed Apache Way, so be it, but I don't see it being nearly as helpful as SO. On Mon, Apr 14, 2014 at 1:15 PM, Andrew Grieve agri...@chromium.org wrote: Most Apache projects have a users@ list for this purpose. Although SO often yields better answers, I don't think it would hurt to have a users@list. On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 9:09 AM, Joe Bowser bows...@gmail.com wrote: This is a dev list, not a support list. I would recommend StackOverflow. On Apr 9, 2014 3:16 PM
Re: support on phonegap/cordova?
I agree, PhoneGap references do not belong in Apache Cordova. I think it's safe to remove website links to: - the PhoneGap Google Groups - the PhoneGap IRC channel We should update the Cordova website with links to: - StackOverflow Cordova tag - #cordova IRC channel Do not: - do not keep the PhoneGap Google Groups link for old solutions - Google has this indexed for anyone searching. - do not create a users@ mailing list - make it earn it's place; StackOverflow has already done this. Michael On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 10:52 AM, Andrew Grieve agri...@chromium.orgwrote: stay tuned on the ML thread with subject Hangout Today @ 4:00 EST. I will post the link there once we're set up. On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 9:41 AM, Terence M. Bandoian tere...@tmbsw.com wrote: One nice thing about a mailing list is that it is delivered. The digest form provides an uncluttered, passive means to stay aware of issues and contribute when appropriate. I'm still new to this list but would like to listen in to the hangout if that's possible. How would I find it on Google Hangout? -Terence Bandoian On 4/15/2014 9:31 AM, Lisa Seacat DeLuca wrote: Michal +1. 1. Create a user@ group that we use to encourage users to post questions on SO. 2. Update website to remove reference to PhoneGap Google Group and include reference to the user@ mailing list 3. remove the IRC #phonegap reference as well Is everyone in agreement on this? Do we need to add an item to our hangout agenda today to discuss further? Lisa Seacat DeLuca Mobile Engineer | t: +415.787.4589 | _ldeluca@apache.org_ mailto:ldel...@apache.org| | _ldel...@us.ibm.com_ mailto:ldel...@us.ibm.com| _lisaseacat.com_ http://www.lisaseacat.com/| follow @LisaSeacat on twitter www.twitter.com/LisaSeacat| follow Lisa Seacat DeLuca on linkedin http://www.linkedin.com/in/lisaseacat From: Michal Mocny mmo...@chromium.org To: dev dev@cordova.apache.org Date: 04/15/2014 09:50 AM Subject: Re: support on phonegap/cordova? Sent by: mmo...@google.com So first: we don't *have* have to have users@ list. This isn't about apache way at all, this is in response to several user inquiries asking for a user list to point them to. Seems no one is looking forward to more email, but I'd be satisfied to have a users@ list from which we direct people over to SO, since some people don't yet know about SO and/or expect a mailing list when they go looking. The most important action item I think is to update the website, since right now we only list the dev, commits, and issues mailing lists listed, and a small note about the phonegap forum for user questions (and that was hard to find without grep-ing). -Michal On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 8:06 AM, Mike Billau mike.bil...@gmail.com wrote: I think that between a users@ mailing list, a google group, an IRC room, and StackOverflow, the best medium we can use to support our users is StackOverflow. Joe makes great points about the benefits that StackOverflow gives us that I don't see the other mediums providing. Sure the GG may be searchable but not nearly as well as SO. Also, there are already a lot of Cordova users helping each other out on SO (only 4 of the top 20 answerers are on this list [1]) SO also will automatically switch phonegap to cordova tag but still allow things like phonegap-build or phonegap-enterprise or whatever - nothing against phonegap, this just seems to be more inline with the Apache Way and would help Adobe support find relevant issues to them while letting the the overall community work on the more general support questions. If we have to have a users@, so be it, but we should make it a point to answer all questions there with a link to the relevant Stack Overflow answer. I think we should also be doing this on the google group too, but I'll be the first to admit that I haven't been. Finally I know there is a lot of push back about getting rid of / encouraging less use of the google group because a lot of people use it and apparently get a lot of their issues fixed, however it seems like either the majority of the questions never get answered, or they get answered by a few users. We should maybe reach out to these power users and explain to them the motivation behind trying to move all support off the GG and into SO and encourage them to help with this transition. [1] http://stackoverflow.com/tags/cordova/topusers On Mon, Apr 14, 2014 at 5:03 PM, Joe Bowser bows...@gmail.com wrote: The reasons I prefer stack overflow to users lists are as follows: 1. Most of our users aren't skilled enough to get on or off of a users list 2. Stack Overflow's structure keeps things more
Re: support on phonegap/cordova?
+1 to Michael Brook's proposal. Definitely I'm all for SO vs a users@ mailing list On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 11:21 AM, Michael Brooks mich...@michaelbrooks.cawrote: I agree, PhoneGap references do not belong in Apache Cordova. I think it's safe to remove website links to: - the PhoneGap Google Groups - the PhoneGap IRC channel We should update the Cordova website with links to: - StackOverflow Cordova tag - #cordova IRC channel Do not: - do not keep the PhoneGap Google Groups link for old solutions - Google has this indexed for anyone searching. - do not create a users@ mailing list - make it earn it's place; StackOverflow has already done this. Michael On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 10:52 AM, Andrew Grieve agri...@chromium.org wrote: stay tuned on the ML thread with subject Hangout Today @ 4:00 EST. I will post the link there once we're set up. On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 9:41 AM, Terence M. Bandoian tere...@tmbsw.com wrote: One nice thing about a mailing list is that it is delivered. The digest form provides an uncluttered, passive means to stay aware of issues and contribute when appropriate. I'm still new to this list but would like to listen in to the hangout if that's possible. How would I find it on Google Hangout? -Terence Bandoian On 4/15/2014 9:31 AM, Lisa Seacat DeLuca wrote: Michal +1. 1. Create a user@ group that we use to encourage users to post questions on SO. 2. Update website to remove reference to PhoneGap Google Group and include reference to the user@ mailing list 3. remove the IRC #phonegap reference as well Is everyone in agreement on this? Do we need to add an item to our hangout agenda today to discuss further? Lisa Seacat DeLuca Mobile Engineer | t: +415.787.4589 | _ldeluca@apache.org_ mailto:ldel...@apache.org| | _ldel...@us.ibm.com_ mailto:ldel...@us.ibm.com| _lisaseacat.com_ http://www.lisaseacat.com/| follow @LisaSeacat on twitter www.twitter.com/LisaSeacat| follow Lisa Seacat DeLuca on linkedin http://www.linkedin.com/in/lisaseacat From: Michal Mocny mmo...@chromium.org To: dev dev@cordova.apache.org Date: 04/15/2014 09:50 AM Subject: Re: support on phonegap/cordova? Sent by: mmo...@google.com So first: we don't *have* have to have users@ list. This isn't about apache way at all, this is in response to several user inquiries asking for a user list to point them to. Seems no one is looking forward to more email, but I'd be satisfied to have a users@ list from which we direct people over to SO, since some people don't yet know about SO and/or expect a mailing list when they go looking. The most important action item I think is to update the website, since right now we only list the dev, commits, and issues mailing lists listed, and a small note about the phonegap forum for user questions (and that was hard to find without grep-ing). -Michal On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 8:06 AM, Mike Billau mike.bil...@gmail.com wrote: I think that between a users@ mailing list, a google group, an IRC room, and StackOverflow, the best medium we can use to support our users is StackOverflow. Joe makes great points about the benefits that StackOverflow gives us that I don't see the other mediums providing. Sure the GG may be searchable but not nearly as well as SO. Also, there are already a lot of Cordova users helping each other out on SO (only 4 of the top 20 answerers are on this list [1]) SO also will automatically switch phonegap to cordova tag but still allow things like phonegap-build or phonegap-enterprise or whatever - nothing against phonegap, this just seems to be more inline with the Apache Way and would help Adobe support find relevant issues to them while letting the the overall community work on the more general support questions. If we have to have a users@, so be it, but we should make it a point to answer all questions there with a link to the relevant Stack Overflow answer. I think we should also be doing this on the google group too, but I'll be the first to admit that I haven't been. Finally I know there is a lot of push back about getting rid of / encouraging less use of the google group because a lot of people use it and apparently get a lot of their issues fixed, however it seems like either the majority of the questions never get answered, or they get answered by a few users. We should maybe reach out to these power users and explain to them the motivation behind trying to move all support off the GG and into SO and encourage them to help with this transition. [1] http://stackoverflow.com
Re: support on phonegap/cordova?
Stack Overflow has the ability to subscribe to a tag, and you can change the frequency with which the digest is delivered. On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 1:41 PM, Terence M. Bandoian tere...@tmbsw.comwrote: One nice thing about a mailing list is that it is delivered. The digest form provides an uncluttered, passive means to stay aware of issues and contribute when appropriate. I'm still new to this list but would like to listen in to the hangout if that's possible. How would I find it on Google Hangout? -Terence Bandoian On 4/15/2014 9:31 AM, Lisa Seacat DeLuca wrote: Michal +1. 1. Create a user@ group that we use to encourage users to post questions on SO. 2. Update website to remove reference to PhoneGap Google Group and include reference to the user@ mailing list 3. remove the IRC #phonegap reference as well Is everyone in agreement on this? Do we need to add an item to our hangout agenda today to discuss further? Lisa Seacat DeLuca Mobile Engineer | t: +415.787.4589 | _ldeluca@apache.org_ mailto: ldel...@apache.org| | _ldel...@us.ibm.com_ mailto:ldel...@us.ibm.com| _lisaseacat.com_ http://www.lisaseacat.com/| follow @LisaSeacat on twitter www.twitter.com/LisaSeacat| follow Lisa Seacat DeLuca on linkedin http://www.linkedin.com/in/lisaseacat From: Michal Mocny mmo...@chromium.org To: dev dev@cordova.apache.org Date: 04/15/2014 09:50 AM Subject: Re: support on phonegap/cordova? Sent by: mmo...@google.com So first: we don't *have* have to have users@ list. This isn't about apache way at all, this is in response to several user inquiries asking for a user list to point them to. Seems no one is looking forward to more email, but I'd be satisfied to have a users@ list from which we direct people over to SO, since some people don't yet know about SO and/or expect a mailing list when they go looking. The most important action item I think is to update the website, since right now we only list the dev, commits, and issues mailing lists listed, and a small note about the phonegap forum for user questions (and that was hard to find without grep-ing). -Michal On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 8:06 AM, Mike Billau mike.bil...@gmail.com wrote: I think that between a users@ mailing list, a google group, an IRC room, and StackOverflow, the best medium we can use to support our users is StackOverflow. Joe makes great points about the benefits that StackOverflow gives us that I don't see the other mediums providing. Sure the GG may be searchable but not nearly as well as SO. Also, there are already a lot of Cordova users helping each other out on SO (only 4 of the top 20 answerers are on this list [1]) SO also will automatically switch phonegap to cordova tag but still allow things like phonegap-build or phonegap-enterprise or whatever - nothing against phonegap, this just seems to be more inline with the Apache Way and would help Adobe support find relevant issues to them while letting the the overall community work on the more general support questions. If we have to have a users@, so be it, but we should make it a point to answer all questions there with a link to the relevant Stack Overflow answer. I think we should also be doing this on the google group too, but I'll be the first to admit that I haven't been. Finally I know there is a lot of push back about getting rid of / encouraging less use of the google group because a lot of people use it and apparently get a lot of their issues fixed, however it seems like either the majority of the questions never get answered, or they get answered by a few users. We should maybe reach out to these power users and explain to them the motivation behind trying to move all support off the GG and into SO and encourage them to help with this transition. [1] http://stackoverflow.com/tags/cordova/topusers On Mon, Apr 14, 2014 at 5:03 PM, Joe Bowser bows...@gmail.com wrote: The reasons I prefer stack overflow to users lists are as follows: 1. Most of our users aren't skilled enough to get on or off of a users list 2. Stack Overflow's structure keeps things more professional than the mailing list. Personal attacks get downvoted on SO 3. Stack Overflow has better searchibility than a users list. If we have to have one because of the much loathed Apache Way, so be it, but I don't see it being nearly as helpful as SO. On Mon, Apr 14, 2014 at 1:15 PM, Andrew Grieve agri...@chromium.org wrote: Most Apache projects have a users@ list for this purpose. Although SO often yields better answers, I don't think it would hurt to have a users@list. On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 9:09 AM, Joe Bowser bows...@gmail.com wrote: This is a dev list, not a support list. I would recommend StackOverflow. On Apr 9, 2014 3:16 PM
Re: support on phonegap/cordova?
Most Apache projects have a users@ list for this purpose. Although SO often yields better answers, I don't think it would hurt to have a users@ list. On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 9:09 AM, Joe Bowser bows...@gmail.com wrote: This is a dev list, not a support list. I would recommend StackOverflow. On Apr 9, 2014 3:16 PM, Andrew Grieve agri...@chromium.org wrote: StackOverflow works really well as well. If it's a possible but in the framework or an Apache plugin though, this is the list :) On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 6:21 AM, Ray Camden rayca...@adobe.com wrote: I'd use the Google Group: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/phonegap From: smo s.la...@gmail.com Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2014 2:35 AM To: dev@cordova.apache.org Subject: support on phonegap/cordova? hi where must i post to get support on phonegap/cordova ios ? thanks
Re: support on phonegap/cordova?
The reasons I prefer stack overflow to users lists are as follows: 1. Most of our users aren't skilled enough to get on or off of a users list 2. Stack Overflow's structure keeps things more professional than the mailing list. Personal attacks get downvoted on SO 3. Stack Overflow has better searchibility than a users list. If we have to have one because of the much loathed Apache Way, so be it, but I don't see it being nearly as helpful as SO. On Mon, Apr 14, 2014 at 1:15 PM, Andrew Grieve agri...@chromium.org wrote: Most Apache projects have a users@ list for this purpose. Although SO often yields better answers, I don't think it would hurt to have a users@ list. On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 9:09 AM, Joe Bowser bows...@gmail.com wrote: This is a dev list, not a support list. I would recommend StackOverflow. On Apr 9, 2014 3:16 PM, Andrew Grieve agri...@chromium.org wrote: StackOverflow works really well as well. If it's a possible but in the framework or an Apache plugin though, this is the list :) On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 6:21 AM, Ray Camden rayca...@adobe.com wrote: I'd use the Google Group: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/phonegap From: smo s.la...@gmail.com Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2014 2:35 AM To: dev@cordova.apache.org Subject: support on phonegap/cordova? hi where must i post to get support on phonegap/cordova ios ? thanks
Re: support on phonegap/cordova? ---- Request for Cordova User Group Mailing List
+1 This Absolutely this. Also, the #phonegap IRC channel on Freenode... I do as much as I can, and there are others that help, but it’s fairly skewed towards the AU timezone ;) - tommy On 12 April 2014 at 6:44:09 am, Jesse (purplecabb...@gmail.com) wrote: Generally though, I think everyone should spend some time on the 'phonegap' mailing list so they can familiarize yourself with the problems that real users have everyday.
Re: support on phonegap/cordova? ---- Request for Cordova User Group Mailing List
After attending ApacheCon it was clear that most projects have a user group mailing list to handle questions like this rather than forwarding people to a product specific distribution. I know there is a big community around PhoneGap and the Google Group has a lot of great existing content but we should create a user group for Cordova to make developers more aware that we exist. Right now if you ask a developer if they know what Cordova is they stare at your blankly... but if you ask then what Phonegap is they are more likely to know. This would be a small change that could go a long way to helping to disrupt that way of thinking. thoughts? +1's? Lisa Lisa Seacat DeLuca Mobile Engineer | t: +415.787.4589 | ldel...@apache.org | | ldel...@us.ibm.com | lisaseacat.com | | From: Andrew Grieve agri...@chromium.org To: dev dev@cordova.apache.org Date: 04/09/2014 06:16 PM Subject:Re: support on phonegap/cordova? Sent by:agri...@google.com StackOverflow works really well as well. If it's a possible but in the framework or an Apache plugin though, this is the list :) On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 6:21 AM, Ray Camden rayca...@adobe.com wrote: I'd use the Google Group: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/phonegap From: smo s.la...@gmail.com Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2014 2:35 AM To: dev@cordova.apache.org Subject: support on phonegap/cordova? hi where must i post to get support on phonegap/cordova ios ? thanks
RE: support on phonegap/cordova?
On 04/09/2014 10:21 AM, Ray Camden rayca...@adobe.com wrote: I'd use the Google Group: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/phonegap Why is Apache Cordova pointing users to Adobe PhoneGap for support? Why isn't there an Apache Cordova user's mailing list? https://cordova.apache.org/ - Sam Ruby From: smo s.la...@gmail.com Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2014 2:35 AM To: dev@cordova.apache.org Subject: support on phonegap/cordova? hi where must i post to get support on phonegap/cordova ios ? thanks
Re: support on phonegap/cordova? ---- Request for Cordova User Group Mailing List
+1 On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 9:56 AM, Lisa Seacat DeLuca ldel...@us.ibm.comwrote: After attending ApacheCon it was clear that most projects have a user group mailing list to handle questions like this rather than forwarding people to a product specific distribution. I know there is a big community around PhoneGap and the Google Group has a lot of great existing content but we should create a user group for Cordova to make developers more aware that we exist. Right now if you ask a developer if they know what Cordova is they stare at your blankly... but if you ask then what Phonegap is they are more likely to know. This would be a small change that could go a long way to helping to disrupt that way of thinking. thoughts? +1's? Lisa Lisa Seacat DeLuca Mobile Engineer | t: +415.787.4589 | *ldel...@apache.org*ldel...@apache.org| | *ldel...@us.ibm.com* ldel...@us.ibm.com | *lisaseacat.com*http://www.lisaseacat.com/| [image: follow @LisaSeacat on twitter] http://www.twitter.com/LisaSeacat| [image: follow Lisa Seacat DeLuca on linkedin]http://www.linkedin.com/in/lisaseacat From:Andrew Grieve agri...@chromium.org To:dev dev@cordova.apache.org Date:04/09/2014 06:16 PM Subject:Re: support on phonegap/cordova? Sent by:agri...@google.com -- StackOverflow works really well as well. If it's a possible but in the framework or an Apache plugin though, this is the list :) On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 6:21 AM, Ray Camden rayca...@adobe.com wrote: I'd use the Google Group: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/phonegap From: smo s.la...@gmail.com Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2014 2:35 AM To: dev@cordova.apache.org Subject: support on phonegap/cordova? hi where must i post to get support on phonegap/cordova ios ? thanks
Re: support on phonegap/cordova? ---- Request for Cordova User Group Mailing List
Not sure I would use the argument make users less aware of phonegap as a reason for this ;) but I agree that its a bit confusing for existing users of cordova core to be directed to phonegap support (see timely reply to the original thread from another user). I much prefer directing user questions to stack overflow, though, where there is much better support for handling duplicate questions, prioritizing useful answers, and you generally get much more community contributions for answering questions, so I'd really prefer we advertise that avenue for support on our website first and foremost. For user questions that do need to go to a mailing list (is there ever a case?), I guess I don't mind which list it goes to (dev@ or users@). I just mind the inevitably frequent repetitive low quality questions by users who just didn't do their research. Stack overflow solves that problem much better. My 2cents. -Michal On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 10:23 AM, Bryan Higgins br...@bryanhiggins.netwrote: +1 On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 9:56 AM, Lisa Seacat DeLuca ldel...@us.ibm.com wrote: After attending ApacheCon it was clear that most projects have a user group mailing list to handle questions like this rather than forwarding people to a product specific distribution. I know there is a big community around PhoneGap and the Google Group has a lot of great existing content but we should create a user group for Cordova to make developers more aware that we exist. Right now if you ask a developer if they know what Cordova is they stare at your blankly... but if you ask then what Phonegap is they are more likely to know. This would be a small change that could go a long way to helping to disrupt that way of thinking. thoughts? +1's? Lisa Lisa Seacat DeLuca Mobile Engineer | t: +415.787.4589 | *ldel...@apache.org* ldel...@apache.org| | *ldel...@us.ibm.com* ldel...@us.ibm.com | *lisaseacat.com* http://www.lisaseacat.com/| [image: follow @LisaSeacat on twitter] http://www.twitter.com/LisaSeacat| [image: follow Lisa Seacat DeLuca on linkedin] http://www.linkedin.com/in/lisaseacat From:Andrew Grieve agri...@chromium.org To:dev dev@cordova.apache.org Date:04/09/2014 06:16 PM Subject:Re: support on phonegap/cordova? Sent by:agri...@google.com -- StackOverflow works really well as well. If it's a possible but in the framework or an Apache plugin though, this is the list :) On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 6:21 AM, Ray Camden rayca...@adobe.com wrote: I'd use the Google Group: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/phonegap From: smo s.la...@gmail.com Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2014 2:35 AM To: dev@cordova.apache.org Subject: support on phonegap/cordova? hi where must i post to get support on phonegap/cordova ios ? thanks
Re: support on phonegap/cordova? ---- Request for Cordova User Group Mailing List
+1 to Michal. I would prefer stack overflow over more email. On Apr 11, 2014 7:58 AM, Michal Mocny mmo...@chromium.org wrote: Not sure I would use the argument make users less aware of phonegap as a reason for this ;) but I agree that its a bit confusing for existing users of cordova core to be directed to phonegap support (see timely reply to the original thread from another user). I much prefer directing user questions to stack overflow, though, where there is much better support for handling duplicate questions, prioritizing useful answers, and you generally get much more community contributions for answering questions, so I'd really prefer we advertise that avenue for support on our website first and foremost. For user questions that do need to go to a mailing list (is there ever a case?), I guess I don't mind which list it goes to (dev@ or users@). I just mind the inevitably frequent repetitive low quality questions by users who just didn't do their research. Stack overflow solves that problem much better. My 2cents. -Michal On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 10:23 AM, Bryan Higgins br...@bryanhiggins.net wrote: +1 On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 9:56 AM, Lisa Seacat DeLuca ldel...@us.ibm.com wrote: After attending ApacheCon it was clear that most projects have a user group mailing list to handle questions like this rather than forwarding people to a product specific distribution. I know there is a big community around PhoneGap and the Google Group has a lot of great existing content but we should create a user group for Cordova to make developers more aware that we exist. Right now if you ask a developer if they know what Cordova is they stare at your blankly... but if you ask then what Phonegap is they are more likely to know. This would be a small change that could go a long way to helping to disrupt that way of thinking. thoughts? +1's? Lisa Lisa Seacat DeLuca Mobile Engineer | t: +415.787.4589 | *ldel...@apache.org* ldel...@apache.org| | *ldel...@us.ibm.com* ldel...@us.ibm.com | *lisaseacat.com* http://www.lisaseacat.com/| [image: follow @LisaSeacat on twitter] http://www.twitter.com/LisaSeacat| [image: follow Lisa Seacat DeLuca on linkedin] http://www.linkedin.com/in/lisaseacat From:Andrew Grieve agri...@chromium.org To:dev dev@cordova.apache.org Date:04/09/2014 06:16 PM Subject:Re: support on phonegap/cordova? Sent by:agri...@google.com -- StackOverflow works really well as well. If it's a possible but in the framework or an Apache plugin though, this is the list :) On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 6:21 AM, Ray Camden rayca...@adobe.com wrote: I'd use the Google Group: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/phonegap From: smo s.la...@gmail.com Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2014 2:35 AM To: dev@cordova.apache.org Subject: support on phonegap/cordova? hi where must i post to get support on phonegap/cordova ios ? thanks
Re: support on phonegap/cordova?
hi +1 cordova/phonegap definitely need a dedicated mailing list for user support / simple questions only thanks On 11/04/2014 16:00, Sam Ruby wrote: On 04/09/2014 10:21 AM, Ray Camden rayca...@adobe.com wrote: I'd use the Google Group: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/phonegap Why is Apache Cordova pointing users to Adobe PhoneGap for support? Why isn't there an Apache Cordova user's mailing list? https://cordova.apache.org/ - Sam Ruby From: smo s.la...@gmail.com Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2014 2:35 AM To: dev@cordova.apache.org Subject: support on phonegap/cordova? hi where must i post to get support on phonegap/cordova ios ? thanks
Re: support on phonegap/cordova?
This is a dev list, not a support list. I would recommend StackOverflow. On Apr 9, 2014 3:16 PM, Andrew Grieve agri...@chromium.org wrote: StackOverflow works really well as well. If it's a possible but in the framework or an Apache plugin though, this is the list :) On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 6:21 AM, Ray Camden rayca...@adobe.com wrote: I'd use the Google Group: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/phonegap From: smo s.la...@gmail.com Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2014 2:35 AM To: dev@cordova.apache.org Subject: support on phonegap/cordova? hi where must i post to get support on phonegap/cordova ios ? thanks
Re: support on phonegap/cordova? ---- Request for Cordova User Group Mailing List
+1 to stackoverflow. On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 8:43 AM, Steven Gill stevengil...@gmail.com wrote: +1 to Michal. I would prefer stack overflow over more email. On Apr 11, 2014 7:58 AM, Michal Mocny mmo...@chromium.org wrote: Not sure I would use the argument make users less aware of phonegap as a reason for this ;) but I agree that its a bit confusing for existing users of cordova core to be directed to phonegap support (see timely reply to the original thread from another user). I much prefer directing user questions to stack overflow, though, where there is much better support for handling duplicate questions, prioritizing useful answers, and you generally get much more community contributions for answering questions, so I'd really prefer we advertise that avenue for support on our website first and foremost. For user questions that do need to go to a mailing list (is there ever a case?), I guess I don't mind which list it goes to (dev@ or users@). I just mind the inevitably frequent repetitive low quality questions by users who just didn't do their research. Stack overflow solves that problem much better. My 2cents. -Michal On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 10:23 AM, Bryan Higgins br...@bryanhiggins.net wrote: +1 On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 9:56 AM, Lisa Seacat DeLuca ldel...@us.ibm.com wrote: After attending ApacheCon it was clear that most projects have a user group mailing list to handle questions like this rather than forwarding people to a product specific distribution. I know there is a big community around PhoneGap and the Google Group has a lot of great existing content but we should create a user group for Cordova to make developers more aware that we exist. Right now if you ask a developer if they know what Cordova is they stare at your blankly... but if you ask then what Phonegap is they are more likely to know. This would be a small change that could go a long way to helping to disrupt that way of thinking. thoughts? +1's? Lisa Lisa Seacat DeLuca Mobile Engineer | t: +415.787.4589 | *ldel...@apache.org* ldel...@apache.org| | *ldel...@us.ibm.com* ldel...@us.ibm.com | *lisaseacat.com* http://www.lisaseacat.com/| [image: follow @LisaSeacat on twitter] http://www.twitter.com/LisaSeacat| [image: follow Lisa Seacat DeLuca on linkedin] http://www.linkedin.com/in/lisaseacat From:Andrew Grieve agri...@chromium.org To:dev dev@cordova.apache.org Date:04/09/2014 06:16 PM Subject:Re: support on phonegap/cordova? Sent by:agri...@google.com -- StackOverflow works really well as well. If it's a possible but in the framework or an Apache plugin though, this is the list :) On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 6:21 AM, Ray Camden rayca...@adobe.com wrote: I'd use the Google Group: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/phonegap From: smo s.la...@gmail.com Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2014 2:35 AM To: dev@cordova.apache.org Subject: support on phonegap/cordova? hi where must i post to get support on phonegap/cordova ios ? thanks
Re: support on phonegap/cordova? ---- Request for Cordova User Group Mailing List
From my experience of helping out on the PG google group, many people ask very simple questions and don't bother searching. My worries about having a users group: * searchability of answers. We would have to point people towards markmail to search (or Google) * lack of responding from committers. If we end up not being responsive, doesn't look good for Cordova. * flood of simple basic questions over and over With stack overflow, we can point users to a well established community for answering questions. Our community seems to enjoy gathering SO points and building rep. We take advantage of the search and ranking ability on SO. The cordova/phonegap tags are also very highly used and answered already. I agree with Michal that we should direct people to SO from our site. We also offer support on #cordova on freenode (even though this was intended to be more of a dev channel) My own personal thoughts about the PG Google group have been that we should migrate users to SO. Unfortunately, it is never easy forcing a well established community to change. +1 to stackoverflow. On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 8:43 AM, Steven Gill stevengil...@gmail.com wrote: +1 to Michal. I would prefer stack overflow over more email. On Apr 11, 2014 7:58 AM, Michal Mocny mmo...@chromium.org wrote: Not sure I would use the argument make users less aware of phonegap as a reason for this ;) but I agree that its a bit confusing for existing users of cordova core to be directed to phonegap support (see timely reply to the original thread from another user). I much prefer directing user questions to stack overflow, though, where there is much better support for handling duplicate questions, prioritizing useful answers, and you generally get much more community contributions for answering questions, so I'd really prefer we advertise that avenue for support on our website first and foremost. For user questions that do need to go to a mailing list (is there ever a case?), I guess I don't mind which list it goes to (dev@ or users@). I just mind the inevitably frequent repetitive low quality questions by users who just didn't do their research. Stack overflow solves that problem much better. My 2cents. -Michal On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 10:23 AM, Bryan Higgins br...@bryanhiggins.net wrote: +1 On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 9:56 AM, Lisa Seacat DeLuca ldel...@us.ibm.com wrote: After attending ApacheCon it was clear that most projects have a user group mailing list to handle questions like this rather than forwarding people to a product specific distribution. I know there is a big community around PhoneGap and the Google Group has a lot of great existing content but we should create a user group for Cordova to make developers more aware that we exist. Right now if you ask a developer if they know what Cordova is they stare at your blankly... but if you ask then what Phonegap is they are more likely to know. This would be a small change that could go a long way to helping to disrupt that way of thinking. thoughts? +1's? Lisa Lisa Seacat DeLuca Mobile Engineer | t: +415.787.4589 | *ldel...@apache.org* ldel...@apache.org| | *ldel...@us.ibm.com* ldel...@us.ibm.com | *lisaseacat.com* http://www.lisaseacat.com/| [image: follow @LisaSeacat on twitter] http://www.twitter.com/LisaSeacat| [image: follow Lisa Seacat DeLuca on linkedin] http://www.linkedin.com/in/lisaseacat From:Andrew Grieve agri...@chromium.org To:dev dev@cordova.apache.org Date:04/09/2014 06:16 PM Subject:Re: support on phonegap/cordova? Sent by:agri...@google.com -- StackOverflow works really well as well. If it's a possible but in the framework or an Apache plugin though, this is the list :) On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 6:21 AM, Ray Camden rayca...@adobe.com wrote: I'd use the Google Group: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/phonegap From: smo s.la...@gmail.com Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2014 2:35 AM To: dev@cordova.apache.org Subject: support on phonegap/cordova? hi where must i post to get support on phonegap/cordova ios ? thanks
Re: support on phonegap/cordova? ---- Request for Cordova User Group Mailing List
Good points Steve! I will definitely check in on SO, especially for BB related questions. On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 3:26 PM, Steven Gill stevengil...@gmail.com wrote: From my experience of helping out on the PG google group, many people ask very simple questions and don't bother searching. My worries about having a users group: * searchability of answers. We would have to point people towards markmail to search (or Google) * lack of responding from committers. If we end up not being responsive, doesn't look good for Cordova. * flood of simple basic questions over and over With stack overflow, we can point users to a well established community for answering questions. Our community seems to enjoy gathering SO points and building rep. We take advantage of the search and ranking ability on SO. The cordova/phonegap tags are also very highly used and answered already. I agree with Michal that we should direct people to SO from our site. We also offer support on #cordova on freenode (even though this was intended to be more of a dev channel) My own personal thoughts about the PG Google group have been that we should migrate users to SO. Unfortunately, it is never easy forcing a well established community to change. +1 to stackoverflow. On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 8:43 AM, Steven Gill stevengil...@gmail.com wrote: +1 to Michal. I would prefer stack overflow over more email. On Apr 11, 2014 7:58 AM, Michal Mocny mmo...@chromium.org wrote: Not sure I would use the argument make users less aware of phonegap as a reason for this ;) but I agree that its a bit confusing for existing users of cordova core to be directed to phonegap support (see timely reply to the original thread from another user). I much prefer directing user questions to stack overflow, though, where there is much better support for handling duplicate questions, prioritizing useful answers, and you generally get much more community contributions for answering questions, so I'd really prefer we advertise that avenue for support on our website first and foremost. For user questions that do need to go to a mailing list (is there ever a case?), I guess I don't mind which list it goes to (dev@ or users@). I just mind the inevitably frequent repetitive low quality questions by users who just didn't do their research. Stack overflow solves that problem much better. My 2cents. -Michal On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 10:23 AM, Bryan Higgins br...@bryanhiggins.net wrote: +1 On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 9:56 AM, Lisa Seacat DeLuca ldel...@us.ibm.com wrote: After attending ApacheCon it was clear that most projects have a user group mailing list to handle questions like this rather than forwarding people to a product specific distribution. I know there is a big community around PhoneGap and the Google Group has a lot of great existing content but we should create a user group for Cordova to make developers more aware that we exist. Right now if you ask a developer if they know what Cordova is they stare at your blankly... but if you ask then what Phonegap is they are more likely to know. This would be a small change that could go a long way to helping to disrupt that way of thinking. thoughts? +1's? Lisa Lisa Seacat DeLuca Mobile Engineer | t: +415.787.4589 | *ldel...@apache.org* ldel...@apache.org| | *ldel...@us.ibm.com* ldel...@us.ibm.com | *lisaseacat.com* http://www.lisaseacat.com/| [image: follow @LisaSeacat on twitter] http://www.twitter.com/LisaSeacat | [image: follow Lisa Seacat DeLuca on linkedin] http://www.linkedin.com/in/lisaseacat From:Andrew Grieve agri...@chromium.org To:dev dev@cordova.apache.org Date:04/09/2014 06:16 PM Subject:Re: support on phonegap/cordova? Sent by:agri...@google.com -- StackOverflow works really well as well. If it's a possible but in the framework or an Apache plugin though, this is the list :) On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 6:21 AM, Ray Camden rayca...@adobe.com wrote: I'd use the Google Group: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/phonegap From: smo s.la...@gmail.com Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2014 2:35 AM To: dev@cordova.apache.org Subject: support on phonegap/cordova? hi where must i post to get support on phonegap/cordova ios ? thanks
Re: support on phonegap/cordova? ---- Request for Cordova User Group Mailing List
| [image: follow Lisa Seacat DeLuca on linkedin] http://www.linkedin.com/in/lisaseacat From:Andrew Grieve agri...@chromium.org To:dev dev@cordova.apache.org Date:04/09/2014 06:16 PM Subject:Re: support on phonegap/cordova? Sent by:agri...@google.com -- StackOverflow works really well as well. If it's a possible but in the framework or an Apache plugin though, this is the list :) On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 6:21 AM, Ray Camden rayca...@adobe.com wrote: I'd use the Google Group: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/phonegap From: smo s.la...@gmail.com Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2014 2:35 AM To: dev@cordova.apache.org Subject: support on phonegap/cordova? hi where must i post to get support on phonegap/cordova ios ? thanks
RE: support on phonegap/cordova?
I'd use the Google Group: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/phonegap From: smo s.la...@gmail.com Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2014 2:35 AM To: dev@cordova.apache.org Subject: support on phonegap/cordova? hi where must i post to get support on phonegap/cordova ios ? thanks
Re: support on phonegap/cordova?
StackOverflow works really well as well. If it's a possible but in the framework or an Apache plugin though, this is the list :) On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 6:21 AM, Ray Camden rayca...@adobe.com wrote: I'd use the Google Group: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/phonegap From: smo s.la...@gmail.com Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2014 2:35 AM To: dev@cordova.apache.org Subject: support on phonegap/cordova? hi where must i post to get support on phonegap/cordova ios ? thanks
