Re: [DISCUSS] New localization requirements policy needed for releases
On 8/1/13 11:56 PM, Marcus (OOo) wrote: Am 07/15/2013 09:04 AM, schrieb Andrea Pescetti: On 14/07/2013 Rob Weir wrote: In this specific case, for AOO 4.0, I'm suggesting we release any additional languages that are 100% on September 16th. This is similar to what we did for AOO 3.4.1. After that date I think we then wait for AOO 4.1. Releasing a new language should be rather easy and repeatable, so it is something that we can do once a month (but I can understand that August may be problematic due to holidays). Ideally, we should have a monthly update, say around mid-month, where we: 1) Release new languages (of course, based on the same code revision as 4.0, exactly as done for 3.4.1) that have reached 100% UI translation. 2) Formally unrelated to #1, we make (unreleased) dev snapshots available of languages that have UI at 75-99%. As I haven't seen any objections, IMHO it's safe to assume we have an agreement. -1 from my side, too much work for me with the current setup As long as we can't use builds from build bots for the release I won't have time to do a monthly lang update. Juergen Marcus - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] New localization requirements policy needed for releases
Jürgen Schmidt wrote: -1 from my side, too much work for me with the current setup As long as we can't use builds from build bots for the release I won't have time to do a monthly lang update. Andrew reconfigured the Windows buildbots in this direction, but the weekly Windows snapshot build after the update was not successful: http://ci.apache.org/projects/openoffice/#winsnap Still, the concept of releasing language updates from the builbots would need some discussion, for example integrating the new SDF files in the old release branch and switching the buildbots to that branch before release. If I recall correctly, we had two additional languages already ready (UI 100%) on release day: traditional Chinese and Khmer. I expect that more reach 100% in the next couple of weeks, so we will then have to start planning either a language update or a 4.0.1 if we identify bugs that deserve early fixes. Regards, Andrea. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] New localization requirements policy needed for releases
On 8/2/13 2:04 PM, Andrea Pescetti wrote: Jürgen Schmidt wrote: -1 from my side, too much work for me with the current setup As long as we can't use builds from build bots for the release I won't have time to do a monthly lang update. Andrew reconfigured the Windows buildbots in this direction, but the weekly Windows snapshot build after the update was not successful: http://ci.apache.org/projects/openoffice/#winsnap Still, the concept of releasing language updates from the builbots would need some discussion, for example integrating the new SDF files in the old release branch and switching the buildbots to that branch before release. If I recall correctly, we had two additional languages already ready (UI 100%) on release day: traditional Chinese and Khmer. I expect that more reach 100% in the next couple of weeks, so we will then have to start planning either a language update or a 4.0.1 if we identify bugs that deserve early fixes. sure and I expect a combined lang + bugfix release 4.0.1 Juergen Regards, Andrea. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] New localization requirements policy needed for releases
Am 07/15/2013 09:04 AM, schrieb Andrea Pescetti: On 14/07/2013 Rob Weir wrote: In this specific case, for AOO 4.0, I'm suggesting we release any additional languages that are 100% on September 16th. This is similar to what we did for AOO 3.4.1. After that date I think we then wait for AOO 4.1. Releasing a new language should be rather easy and repeatable, so it is something that we can do once a month (but I can understand that August may be problematic due to holidays). Ideally, we should have a monthly update, say around mid-month, where we: 1) Release new languages (of course, based on the same code revision as 4.0, exactly as done for 3.4.1) that have reached 100% UI translation. 2) Formally unrelated to #1, we make (unreleased) dev snapshots available of languages that have UI at 75-99%. As I haven't seen any objections, IMHO it's safe to assume we have an agreement. Marcus - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] New localization requirements policy needed for releases
On 22/07/2013 Andrew Rist wrote: On 7/20/2013 1:19 PM, Andrea Pescetti wrote: On 15/07/2013 Herbert Duerr wrote: Currently the Windows buildbot of the SNAPSHOT tag does a weekly full build of all languages: http://ci.apache.org/projects/openoffice/#winsnap Is any fully translated language missing from that list? Yes, ast. Should semi-translated languages be built too? The following have less than 20.000 words left (means, 75%+ done, more or less) and should ideally be built too: ca eu he hi id lt pl sv th tr ok - I committed this change. I only see ast there, but likely the weekly build hasn't run yet. Would it be possible to add kid too? It's a special (KeyID) build useful to translators. Thanks, Andrea. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] New localization requirements policy needed for releases
On 7/20/2013 1:19 PM, Andrea Pescetti wrote: On 15/07/2013 Herbert Duerr wrote: Currently the Windows buildbot of the SNAPSHOT tag does a weekly full build of all languages: http://ci.apache.org/projects/openoffice/#winsnap Is any fully translated language missing from that list? Yes, ast. Should semi-translated languages be built too? The following have less than 20.000 words left (means, 75%+ done, more or less) and should ideally be built too: ca eu he hi id lt pl sv th tr ok - I committed this change. Regards, Andrea. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] New localization requirements policy needed for releases
On 15/07/2013 Herbert Duerr wrote: Currently the Windows buildbot of the SNAPSHOT tag does a weekly full build of all languages: http://ci.apache.org/projects/openoffice/#winsnap Is any fully translated language missing from that list? Yes, ast. Should semi-translated languages be built too? The following have less than 20.000 words left (means, 75%+ done, more or less) and should ideally be built too: ca eu he hi id lt pl sv th tr Regards, Andrea. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] New localization requirements policy needed for releases
On 14/07/2013 Rob Weir wrote: In this specific case, for AOO 4.0, I'm suggesting we release any additional languages that are 100% on September 16th. This is similar to what we did for AOO 3.4.1. After that date I think we then wait for AOO 4.1. Releasing a new language should be rather easy and repeatable, so it is something that we can do once a month (but I can understand that August may be problematic due to holidays). Ideally, we should have a monthly update, say around mid-month, where we: 1) Release new languages (of course, based on the same code revision as 4.0, exactly as done for 3.4.1) that have reached 100% UI translation. 2) Formally unrelated to #1, we make (unreleased) dev snapshots available of languages that have UI at 75-99%. Regards, Andrea. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] New localization requirements policy needed for releases
On 7/15/13 9:04 AM, Andrea Pescetti wrote: On 14/07/2013 Rob Weir wrote: In this specific case, for AOO 4.0, I'm suggesting we release any additional languages that are 100% on September 16th. This is similar to what we did for AOO 3.4.1. After that date I think we then wait for AOO 4.1. Releasing a new language should be rather easy and repeatable, so it is something that we can do once a month (but I can understand that August may be problematic due to holidays). Ideally, we should have a monthly update, say around mid-month, where we: 1) Release new languages (of course, based on the same code revision as 4.0, exactly as done for 3.4.1) that have reached 100% UI translation. 2) Formally unrelated to #1, we make (unreleased) dev snapshots available of languages that have UI at 75-99%. People should work on a reliable build bot infra structure that can provide builds for all major platforms (Linux, Windows, MacOS). And then we can configure more languages on demand. I will be not the manual build bot ;-) Proposing is fine but please think also about the realization. Juergen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] New localization requirements policy needed for releases
On 15.07.2013 09:19, Jürgen Schmidt wrote: On 7/15/13 9:04 AM, Andrea Pescetti wrote: On 14/07/2013 Rob Weir wrote: In this specific case, for AOO 4.0, I'm suggesting we release any additional languages that are 100% on September 16th. This is similar to what we did for AOO 3.4.1. After that date I think we then wait for AOO 4.1. Releasing a new language should be rather easy and repeatable, so it is something that we can do once a month (but I can understand that August may be problematic due to holidays). Ideally, we should have a monthly update, say around mid-month, where we: 1) Release new languages (of course, based on the same code revision as 4.0, exactly as done for 3.4.1) that have reached 100% UI translation. 2) Formally unrelated to #1, we make (unreleased) dev snapshots available of languages that have UI at 75-99%. People should work on a reliable build bot infra structure that can provide builds for all major platforms (Linux, Windows, MacOS). And then we can configure more languages on demand. Currently the Windows buildbot of the SNAPSHOT tag does a weekly full build of all languages: http://ci.apache.org/projects/openoffice/#winsnap Is any fully translated language missing from that list? Should semi-translated languages be built too? Yes, we should build all languages on all other platforms too. But we don't have a Mac buildbot yet and until the build baseline is increased to XCode4 that will probably have to stay so. On the Linux64 things look much better but disk space on that buildbot used to be a problem. The Linux32 buildbot needs to be set up, but from a localization perspective its build result it is indistinguishable from the Linux64 build. Also FreeBSD buildbot would be possible, but AFAIK Maho is working on a tinderbox build there, so setting up a buildbot would probably be wasted work. Also getting buildbots for OS/2 or Solaris X86 or Sparc just for the localized snapshot builds is probably wasted work unless there is a number of translators that only test on these platforms. Herbert - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] New localization requirements policy needed for releases
On 7/15/2013 12:19 AM, Jürgen Schmidt wrote: On 7/15/13 9:04 AM, Andrea Pescetti wrote: On 14/07/2013 Rob Weir wrote: In this specific case, for AOO 4.0, I'm suggesting we release any additional languages that are 100% on September 16th. This is similar to what we did for AOO 3.4.1. After that date I think we then wait for AOO 4.1. Releasing a new language should be rather easy and repeatable, so it is something that we can do once a month (but I can understand that August may be problematic due to holidays). Ideally, we should have a monthly update, say around mid-month, where we: 1) Release new languages (of course, based on the same code revision as 4.0, exactly as done for 3.4.1) that have reached 100% UI translation. 2) Formally unrelated to #1, we make (unreleased) dev snapshots available of languages that have UI at 75-99%. People should work on a reliable build bot infra structure that can provide builds for all major platforms (Linux, Windows, MacOS). And then we can configure more languages on demand. While there are periodic complaints about the build bots (e.g. when there are breaking changes made to the source tree), the main bots are pretty stable. They mainly break when broken. If you look at Windows Snapshot build http://ci.apache.org/builders/aoo-w7snap/ , the Windows nightly build http://ci.apache.org/builders/aoo-win7/ , and the Linux 64bit build http://ci.apache.org/builders/openoffice-linux64-nightly/ , you will notice that they are quite stable (esp. with the fix to the hanging process issue) We can ask again at infra for our CentOS linux 32 bot and Mac hardware, and we have waited long enough on that front. But, are there any issues we can identify with the current Windows snapshot build that make it unusable? We can configure more languages on these bots on demand right now. Is there a technical reason you don't like them? A. I will be not the manual build bot ;-) Proposing is fine but please think also about the realization. Juergen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
Re: [DISCUSS] New localization requirements policy needed for releases
On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 12:37 PM, Marcus (OOo) marcus.m...@wtnet.de wrote: I tie up to Kay's suggestion to discuss a new policy. So, new topic, new thread. For reference here is the old policy: http://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Release_criteria#Localization_requirements My new suggestion: 1. Don't make a difference between UI and Help. 2. Accepted translations that are 90% or better. 3. *Except* we have a big or strategic new feature like the Sidebar. This should be translated much better than 90%. Why? 1. Do we want to make differences between UI and help translation? Do average users accept English help topics for translated UI functions? I don't think so. 2. In the previous OOo project translations were accepted with 80% or better for a release. IMHO this is too low to offer a high quality release. 3. New features that are also promoted in release note, blog post, etc. should be fully translated as the attention of our users is high here. They want to give it a try and shouldn't be disappointed with not translated parts. And now, add your points. I'd prefer to keep the current rule, 100% UI translation. But I'd be open to requiring 100% for help as well. IMHO we should be raising the bar, not lowering it. If there is a community willing and able to translate to 90% then there should be community willing and able to translate to 100%. There is no technical or community reason to stop at 90%. It is only a question of time. I'd prefer we just wait for 100% translation and then release it. On the other hand, if a language is stuck at 90% and there are no active volunteers, then I don't think we should release it. If it will not get to 100%, then we're just release something that will reflect poorly on us and will slowly degenerate from release to release. In other words, if it is merely a case of waiting another month or two and then releasing a high-quality 100% translation, then I think that is better than releasing something only partially done. Also, there is the slippery slope here. If we allow 90% complete then someone will beg for 89% complete, or 88% complete. What I would favor is making builds available, maybe at the level of AOO 4.0, in all languages that are close, maybe 80% or 90%. Not for release or distribution, but to help volunteers evaluate its current state and help translate. Regards, -Rob Marcus Am 07/14/2013 05:43 PM, schrieb Kay Schenk: On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 8:13 AM, Rob Weirrobw...@apache.org wrote: On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 3:42 AM, Juergen Schmidtjogischm...@gmail.com wrote: Am Sonntag, 14. Juli 2013 um 06:35 schrieb imacat: On 2013/07/13 20:52, Ariel Constenla-Haile said: On Sat, Jul 13, 2013 at 12:20:32PM +0200, Marcus (OOo) wrote: Am 07/13/2013 05:14 AM, schrieb Ariel Constenla-Haile: On Fri, Jul 12, 2013 at 11:54 PM, imacat ima...@mail.imacat.idv.tw wrote: Sorry. I did not see Traditional Chinese version. Did I missed something on the Traditional Chinese version? UI translation is not complete: https://translate.apache.org/zh_TW/aoo40/ I can see that 97% is translated. Not that bad. Do we have an agreement that we need 100% for a release? http://markmail.org/message/pxgvjuw2j3ukqsom Concerns should have been risen at that time, it was discussed on the mailing list, and properly tagged (if it does not happen on the mailing list...). I'm asking because I really don't know it and in former OOo times we have done releases for languages with at least 80% translated UI [1]. So, maybe a change that I haven't seen in the last weeks. For this particular case, the translation of the main 4.0.0 feature is incomplete https://translate.apache.org/zh_TW/aoo40/svx/source/sidebar/ How serious would it be to release this translation in such a state? The same applies to other languages released in 3.4.* but not in this 4.0.0 RC. Hmm... I see the problem with side bar translation. And I'm very sorry that I was in my research paper and did not notice the previous discussion. However, there are several issues of concern: 1. I am going to give a talk in our largest local open source conference (COSCUP 2013, http://coscup.org/) on 8/3, and plan to announce OpenOffice 4.0. It is the first talk after the key notes. It would be very embarrassing to announce it without a local version released. 2. There would be a large-scale deployment around August or September (6000-7000) in a government department, and they are planning to join our development force in order to fix some Chinese problems in governmental use. If OpenOffice 4.0 Traditional Chinese version is not available at that time, we could only give them 3.4.1, which their development could not be based on. I've asked our local community to help the translation in urgent. If we can finish the Traditional Chinese sidebar translation with certain amount, could it be OK to release it? let translate the UI
Re: [DISCUSS] New localization requirements policy needed for releases
Am Sonntag, 14. Juli 2013 um 18:37 schrieb Marcus (OOo): I tie up to Kay's suggestion to discuss a new policy. So, new topic, new thread. For reference here is the old policy: http://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Release_criteria#Localization_requirements My new suggestion: 1. Don't make a difference between UI and Help. 2. Accepted translations that are 90% or better. 3. *Except* we have a big or strategic new feature like the Sidebar. This should be translated much better than 90%. Why? 1. Do we want to make differences between UI and help translation? Do average users accept English help topics for translated UI functions? I don't think so. 2. In the previous OOo project translations were accepted with 80% or better for a release. IMHO this is too low to offer a high quality release. 3. New features that are also promoted in release note, blog post, etc. should be fully translated as the attention of our users is high here. They want to give it a try and shouldn't be disappointed with not translated parts. And now, add your points. first of all I would like to bring the release out and then we can discuss the process for the future. For now we have defined to use 100% UI and as much as possible for Help. And I personally don't like to move back to UI less than 100%. And I see of course a big difference between UI and help. But it is not easy because useful short help is part of the Help and will be shown in the UI directly ... Long term goal should be 100% for everything and I believe it is doable with active communities. Once you have reached 100% the maintenance will be less effort. Only new features or minor rework have to be done hopefully. Juergen Marcus Am 07/14/2013 05:43 PM, schrieb Kay Schenk: On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 8:13 AM, Rob Weirrobw...@apache.org wrote: On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 3:42 AM, Juergen Schmidtjogischm...@gmail.com wrote: Am Sonntag, 14. Juli 2013 um 06:35 schrieb imacat: On 2013/07/13 20:52, Ariel Constenla-Haile said: On Sat, Jul 13, 2013 at 12:20:32PM +0200, Marcus (OOo) wrote: Am 07/13/2013 05:14 AM, schrieb Ariel Constenla-Haile: On Fri, Jul 12, 2013 at 11:54 PM, imacat ima...@mail.imacat.idv.tw wrote: Sorry. I did not see Traditional Chinese version. Did I missed something on the Traditional Chinese version? UI translation is not complete: https://translate.apache.org/zh_TW/aoo40/ I can see that 97% is translated. Not that bad. Do we have an agreement that we need 100% for a release? http://markmail.org/message/pxgvjuw2j3ukqsom Concerns should have been risen at that time, it was discussed on the mailing list, and properly tagged (if it does not happen on the mailing list...). I'm asking because I really don't know it and in former OOo times we have done releases for languages with at least 80% translated UI [1]. So, maybe a change that I haven't seen in the last weeks. For this particular case, the translation of the main 4.0.0 feature is incomplete https://translate.apache.org/zh_TW/aoo40/svx/source/sidebar/ How serious would it be to release this translation in such a state? The same applies to other languages released in 3.4.* but not in this 4.0.0 RC. Hmm... I see the problem with side bar translation. And I'm very sorry that I was in my research paper and did not notice the previous discussion. However, there are several issues of concern: 1. I am going to give a talk in our largest local open source conference (COSCUP 2013, http://coscup.org/) on 8/3, and plan to announce OpenOffice 4.0. It is the first talk after the key notes. It would be very embarrassing to announce it without a local version released. 2. There would be a large-scale deployment around August or September (6000-7000) in a government department, and they are planning to join our development force in order to fix some Chinese problems in governmental use. If OpenOffice 4.0 Traditional Chinese version is not available at that time, we could only give them 3.4.1, which their development could not be based on. I've asked our local community to help the translation in urgent. If we can finish the Traditional Chinese sidebar translation with certain amount, could it be OK to release it? let translate the UI First and then we can figure out what's possible. Hopefully some other languages can continue the translation as well and we can think
Re: [DISCUSS] New localization requirements policy needed for releases
Am 07/14/2013 07:12 PM, schrieb Juergen Schmidt: Am Sonntag, 14. Juli 2013 um 18:37 schrieb Marcus (OOo): I tie up to Kay's suggestion to discuss a new policy. So, new topic, new thread. For reference here is the old policy: http://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Release_criteria#Localization_requirements My new suggestion: 1. Don't make a difference between UI and Help. 2. Accepted translations that are 90% or better. 3. *Except* we have a big or strategic new feature like the Sidebar. This should be translated much better than 90%. Why? 1. Do we want to make differences between UI and help translation? Do average users accept English help topics for translated UI functions? I don't think so. 2. In the previous OOo project translations were accepted with 80% or better for a release. IMHO this is too low to offer a high quality release. 3. New features that are also promoted in release note, blog post, etc. should be fully translated as the attention of our users is high here. They want to give it a try and shouldn't be disappointed with not translated parts. And now, add your points. first of all I would like to bring the release out and then we can discuss the process for the future. For now we have defined to use 100% UI and as much as possible for Help. And I personally don't like to move back to UI less than 100%. And I see of course a big difference between UI and help. But it is not easy because useful short help is part of the Help and will be shown in the UI directly ... Long term goal should be 100% for everything and I believe it is doable with active communities. Once you have reached 100% the maintenance will be less effort. Only new features or minor rework have to be done hopefully. Sorry if you have understood to apply the new policy for AOO 4.0. Of course this should not be the case. Marcus Am 07/14/2013 05:43 PM, schrieb Kay Schenk: On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 8:13 AM, Rob Weirrobw...@apache.org wrote: On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 3:42 AM, Juergen Schmidtjogischm...@gmail.com wrote: Am Sonntag, 14. Juli 2013 um 06:35 schrieb imacat: On 2013/07/13 20:52, Ariel Constenla-Haile said: On Sat, Jul 13, 2013 at 12:20:32PM +0200, Marcus (OOo) wrote: Am 07/13/2013 05:14 AM, schrieb Ariel Constenla-Haile: On Fri, Jul 12, 2013 at 11:54 PM, imacat ima...@mail.imacat.idv.tw wrote: Sorry. I did not see Traditional Chinese version. Did I missed something on the Traditional Chinese version? UI translation is not complete: https://translate.apache.org/zh_TW/aoo40/ I can see that 97% is translated. Not that bad. Do we have an agreement that we need 100% for a release? http://markmail.org/message/pxgvjuw2j3ukqsom Concerns should have been risen at that time, it was discussed on the mailing list, and properly tagged (if it does not happen on the mailing list...). I'm asking because I really don't know it and in former OOo times we have done releases for languages with at least 80% translated UI [1]. So, maybe a change that I haven't seen in the last weeks. For this particular case, the translation of the main 4.0.0 feature is incomplete https://translate.apache.org/zh_TW/aoo40/svx/source/sidebar/ How serious would it be to release this translation in such a state? The same applies to other languages released in 3.4.* but not in this 4.0.0 RC. Hmm... I see the problem with side bar translation. And I'm very sorry that I was in my research paper and did not notice the previous discussion. However, there are several issues of concern: 1. I am going to give a talk in our largest local open source conference (COSCUP 2013, http://coscup.org/) on 8/3, and plan to announce OpenOffice 4.0. It is the first talk after the key notes. It would be very embarrassing to announce it without a local version released. 2. There would be a large-scale deployment around August or September (6000-7000) in a government department, and they are planning to join our development force in order to fix some Chinese problems in governmental use. If OpenOffice 4.0 Traditional Chinese version is not available at that time, we could only give them 3.4.1, which their development could not be based on. I've asked our local community to help the translation in urgent. If we can finish the Traditional Chinese sidebar translation with certain amount, could it be OK to release it? let translate the UI First and then we can figure out what's possible. Hopefully some other languages can continue the translation as well and we can think about a language only release where I am a big fan of to support local communities. There is obviously some tension in our goals here: 1) We want to release the good work that is already done, so users who can enjoy the new features, bug fixes, interop improvements, etc. 2) We also have some languages that are almost done and don't want to miss the train. IMHO the way to resolve this tension is to
Re: [DISCUSS] New localization requirements policy needed for releases
On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 1:32 PM, Marcus (OOo) marcus.m...@wtnet.de wrote: Am 07/14/2013 07:11 PM, schrieb Rob Weir: On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 12:37 PM, Marcus (OOo)marcus.m...@wtnet.de wrote: I tie up to Kay's suggestion to discuss a new policy. So, new topic, new thread. For reference here is the old policy: http://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Release_criteria#Localization_requirements My new suggestion: 1. Don't make a difference between UI and Help. 2. Accepted translations that are 90% or better. 3. *Except* we have a big or strategic new feature like the Sidebar. This should be translated much better than 90%. Why? 1. Do we want to make differences between UI and help translation? Do average users accept English help topics for translated UI functions? I don't think so. 2. In the previous OOo project translations were accepted with 80% or better for a release. IMHO this is too low to offer a high quality release. 3. New features that are also promoted in release note, blog post, etc. should be fully translated as the attention of our users is high here. They want to give it a try and shouldn't be disappointed with not translated parts. And now, add your points. I'd prefer to keep the current rule, 100% UI translation. But I'd be open to requiring 100% for help as well. IMHO we should be raising the bar, not lowering it. If there is a community willing and able to translate to 90% then there should be community willing and able to translate to 100%. There is no technical or community reason to stop at 90%. It is only a question of time. I'd prefer we just wait for 100% translation and then release it. Sure, 90% was just my suggestion to raise the bar from 80%. But to stick with 100% is much easier as it's all or nothing. On the other hand, if a language is stuck at 90% and there are no active volunteers, then I don't think we should release it. If it will not get to 100%, then we're just release something that will reflect poorly on us and will slowly degenerate from release to release. Yes, if the language is no longer supported actively then we shouldn't release it. In other words, if it is merely a case of waiting another month or two and then releasing a high-quality 100% translation, then I think that is better than releasing something only partially done. Also, there is the slippery slope here. If we allow 90% complete then someone will beg for 89% complete, or 88% complete. But then we have to be strict as 99% is also near to 100%. ;-) What I would favor is making builds available, maybe at the level of AOO 4.0, in all languages that are close, maybe 80% or 90%. Not for release or distribution, but to help volunteers evaluate its current state and help translate. Good point, +1. Do you think about a L10N release somewhen between releases or as a RC where it's clear from the beginning that it will not be released? In this specific case, for AOO 4.0, I'm suggesting we release any additional languages that are 100% on September 16th. This is similar to what we did for AOO 3.4.1. After that date I think we then wait for AOO 4.1. You ask about an RC where it is not clear whether it will be released? We may run into that issue if we have a beta for AOO 4.1. I don't think all translations are complete for a beta. (Or are they?) If so it is possible for a beta to include a language that never is included in the final release. This would occur if the translators do not finish the translation. This may sound cruel, but we can use this for recruitment. When we publish the beta we can note that the translation is not finished and that volunteers are welcome. Regards, -Rob Marcus Am 07/14/2013 05:43 PM, schrieb Kay Schenk: On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 8:13 AM, Rob Weirrobw...@apache.org wrote: On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 3:42 AM, Juergen Schmidtjogischm...@gmail.com wrote: Am Sonntag, 14. Juli 2013 um 06:35 schrieb imacat: On 2013/07/13 20:52, Ariel Constenla-Haile said: On Sat, Jul 13, 2013 at 12:20:32PM +0200, Marcus (OOo) wrote: Am 07/13/2013 05:14 AM, schrieb Ariel Constenla-Haile: On Fri, Jul 12, 2013 at 11:54 PM, imacat ima...@mail.imacat.idv.tw wrote: Sorry. I did not see Traditional Chinese version. Did I missed something on the Traditional Chinese version? UI translation is not complete: https://translate.apache.org/zh_TW/aoo40/ I can see that 97% is translated. Not that bad. Do we have an agreement that we need 100% for a release? http://markmail.org/message/pxgvjuw2j3ukqsom Concerns should have been risen at that time, it was discussed on the mailing list, and properly tagged (if it does not happen on the mailing list...). I'm asking because I really don't know it and in former OOo times we have done releases for languages with at least 80% translated UI [1]. So, maybe a change that I haven't seen in the last weeks. For this
Re: [DISCUSS] New localization requirements policy needed for releases
On Jul 14, 2013, at 11:19 AM, Rob Weir wrote: On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 1:32 PM, Marcus (OOo) marcus.m...@wtnet.de wrote: Am 07/14/2013 07:11 PM, schrieb Rob Weir: On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 12:37 PM, Marcus (OOo)marcus.m...@wtnet.de wrote: I tie up to Kay's suggestion to discuss a new policy. So, new topic, new thread. For reference here is the old policy: http://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Release_criteria#Localization_requirements My new suggestion: 1. Don't make a difference between UI and Help. 2. Accepted translations that are 90% or better. 3. *Except* we have a big or strategic new feature like the Sidebar. This should be translated much better than 90%. Why? 1. Do we want to make differences between UI and help translation? Do average users accept English help topics for translated UI functions? I don't think so. 2. In the previous OOo project translations were accepted with 80% or better for a release. IMHO this is too low to offer a high quality release. 3. New features that are also promoted in release note, blog post, etc. should be fully translated as the attention of our users is high here. They want to give it a try and shouldn't be disappointed with not translated parts. And now, add your points. I'd prefer to keep the current rule, 100% UI translation. But I'd be open to requiring 100% for help as well. IMHO we should be raising the bar, not lowering it. If there is a community willing and able to translate to 90% then there should be community willing and able to translate to 100%. There is no technical or community reason to stop at 90%. It is only a question of time. I'd prefer we just wait for 100% translation and then release it. Sure, 90% was just my suggestion to raise the bar from 80%. But to stick with 100% is much easier as it's all or nothing. On the other hand, if a language is stuck at 90% and there are no active volunteers, then I don't think we should release it. If it will not get to 100%, then we're just release something that will reflect poorly on us and will slowly degenerate from release to release. Yes, if the language is no longer supported actively then we shouldn't release it. In other words, if it is merely a case of waiting another month or two and then releasing a high-quality 100% translation, then I think that is better than releasing something only partially done. Also, there is the slippery slope here. If we allow 90% complete then someone will beg for 89% complete, or 88% complete. But then we have to be strict as 99% is also near to 100%. ;-) What I would favor is making builds available, maybe at the level of AOO 4.0, in all languages that are close, maybe 80% or 90%. Not for release or distribution, but to help volunteers evaluate its current state and help translate. Good point, +1. Do you think about a L10N release somewhen between releases or as a RC where it's clear from the beginning that it will not be released? In this specific case, for AOO 4.0, I'm suggesting we release any additional languages that are 100% on September 16th. This is similar to what we did for AOO 3.4.1. After that date I think we then wait for AOO 4.1. I don't disagree with the policy of deadlines, but why September 16th? If some languages are ready sooner (like Traditional Chinese) it ought to be possible to have an earlier set. Perhaps we make it once a month? We also need to understand that there will be a certain length of time from a deadline to a language pack release. Is it one week? You ask about an RC where it is not clear whether it will be released? We may run into that issue if we have a beta for AOO 4.1. I don't think all translations are complete for a beta. (Or are they?) If so it is possible for a beta to include a language that never is included in the final release. This would occur if the translators do not finish the translation. This may sound cruel, but we can use this for recruitment. When we publish the beta we can note that the translation is not finished and that volunteers are welcome. I think that we should be careful to have a UI and Help freeze in advance of releases in order to give plenty of time for language teams to assure that they can meet our high standard of 100%. If we are going to co-ordinate many small teams then we need to establish schedules and try to commit to them. (As Jürgen has done for this RC.) Regards, Dave Regards, -Rob Marcus Am 07/14/2013 05:43 PM, schrieb Kay Schenk: On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 8:13 AM, Rob Weirrobw...@apache.org wrote: On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 3:42 AM, Juergen Schmidtjogischm...@gmail.com wrote: Am Sonntag, 14. Juli 2013 um 06:35 schrieb imacat: On 2013/07/13 20:52, Ariel Constenla-Haile said: On Sat, Jul 13, 2013 at 12:20:32PM +0200, Marcus (OOo) wrote: Am 07/13/2013 05:14 AM, schrieb Ariel
Re: [DISCUSS] New localization requirements policy needed for releases
On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 10:11 AM, Rob Weir robw...@apache.org wrote: On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 12:37 PM, Marcus (OOo) marcus.m...@wtnet.de wrote: I tie up to Kay's suggestion to discuss a new policy. So, new topic, new thread. For reference here is the old policy: http://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Release_criteria#Localization_requirements My new suggestion: 1. Don't make a difference between UI and Help. 2. Accepted translations that are 90% or better. 3. *Except* we have a big or strategic new feature like the Sidebar. This should be translated much better than 90%. Why? 1. Do we want to make differences between UI and help translation? Do average users accept English help topics for translated UI functions? I don't think so. 2. In the previous OOo project translations were accepted with 80% or better for a release. IMHO this is too low to offer a high quality release. 3. New features that are also promoted in release note, blog post, etc. should be fully translated as the attention of our users is high here. They want to give it a try and shouldn't be disappointed with not translated parts. And now, add your points. I'd prefer to keep the current rule, 100% UI translation. But I'd be open to requiring 100% for help as well. IMHO we should be raising the bar, not lowering it. If there is a community willing and able to translate to 90% then there should be community willing and able to translate to 100%. In many cases, it is probably a time factor rather than an interest factor. I'm not really familiar with the normal tracking and communication between translation volunteers and developers on this list with respect to release date targets, however. Maybe this needs improvement. There is no technical or community reason to stop at 90%. It is only a question of time. I'd prefer we just wait for 100% translation and then release it. On the other hand, if a language is stuck at 90% and there are no active volunteers, then I don't think we should release it. If it will not get to 100%, then we're just release something that will reflect poorly on us and will slowly degenerate from release to release. yes, I agree. In other words, if it is merely a case of waiting another month or two and then releasing a high-quality 100% translation, then I think that is better than releasing something only partially done. Also, there is the slippery slope here. If we allow 90% complete then someone will beg for 89% complete, or 88% complete. again, agreement What I would favor is making builds available, maybe at the level of AOO 4.0, in all languages that are close, maybe 80% or 90%. Not for release or distribution, but to help volunteers evaluate its current state and help translate. h...I don't know how this would mesh with Apache release policy. I guess what you're saying is they could be handled like development snapshots, but ultimately fail the release test? We need to investigate this. Regards, -Rob Marcus Am 07/14/2013 05:43 PM, schrieb Kay Schenk: On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 8:13 AM, Rob Weirrobw...@apache.org wrote: On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 3:42 AM, Juergen Schmidtjogischm...@gmail.com wrote: Am Sonntag, 14. Juli 2013 um 06:35 schrieb imacat: On 2013/07/13 20:52, Ariel Constenla-Haile said: On Sat, Jul 13, 2013 at 12:20:32PM +0200, Marcus (OOo) wrote: Am 07/13/2013 05:14 AM, schrieb Ariel Constenla-Haile: On Fri, Jul 12, 2013 at 11:54 PM, imacat ima...@mail.imacat.idv.tw wrote: Sorry. I did not see Traditional Chinese version. Did I missed something on the Traditional Chinese version? UI translation is not complete: https://translate.apache.org/zh_TW/aoo40/ I can see that 97% is translated. Not that bad. Do we have an agreement that we need 100% for a release? http://markmail.org/message/pxgvjuw2j3ukqsom Concerns should have been risen at that time, it was discussed on the mailing list, and properly tagged (if it does not happen on the mailing list...). I'm asking because I really don't know it and in former OOo times we have done releases for languages with at least 80% translated UI [1]. So, maybe a change that I haven't seen in the last weeks. For this particular case, the translation of the main 4.0.0 feature is incomplete https://translate.apache.org/zh_TW/aoo40/svx/source/sidebar/ How serious would it be to release this translation in such a state? The same applies to other languages released in 3.4.* but not in this 4.0.0 RC. Hmm... I see the problem with side bar translation. And I'm very sorry that I was in my research paper and did not notice the previous discussion. However, there are several issues of concern: 1. I am going to give a talk in our largest local open source conference (COSCUP 2013, http://coscup.org/) on
Re: [DISCUSS] New localization requirements policy needed for releases
On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 2:32 PM, Dave Fisher dave2w...@comcast.net wrote: On Jul 14, 2013, at 11:19 AM, Rob Weir wrote: On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 1:32 PM, Marcus (OOo) marcus.m...@wtnet.de wrote: Am 07/14/2013 07:11 PM, schrieb Rob Weir: On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 12:37 PM, Marcus (OOo)marcus.m...@wtnet.de wrote: I tie up to Kay's suggestion to discuss a new policy. So, new topic, new thread. For reference here is the old policy: http://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Release_criteria#Localization_requirements My new suggestion: 1. Don't make a difference between UI and Help. 2. Accepted translations that are 90% or better. 3. *Except* we have a big or strategic new feature like the Sidebar. This should be translated much better than 90%. Why? 1. Do we want to make differences between UI and help translation? Do average users accept English help topics for translated UI functions? I don't think so. 2. In the previous OOo project translations were accepted with 80% or better for a release. IMHO this is too low to offer a high quality release. 3. New features that are also promoted in release note, blog post, etc. should be fully translated as the attention of our users is high here. They want to give it a try and shouldn't be disappointed with not translated parts. And now, add your points. I'd prefer to keep the current rule, 100% UI translation. But I'd be open to requiring 100% for help as well. IMHO we should be raising the bar, not lowering it. If there is a community willing and able to translate to 90% then there should be community willing and able to translate to 100%. There is no technical or community reason to stop at 90%. It is only a question of time. I'd prefer we just wait for 100% translation and then release it. Sure, 90% was just my suggestion to raise the bar from 80%. But to stick with 100% is much easier as it's all or nothing. On the other hand, if a language is stuck at 90% and there are no active volunteers, then I don't think we should release it. If it will not get to 100%, then we're just release something that will reflect poorly on us and will slowly degenerate from release to release. Yes, if the language is no longer supported actively then we shouldn't release it. In other words, if it is merely a case of waiting another month or two and then releasing a high-quality 100% translation, then I think that is better than releasing something only partially done. Also, there is the slippery slope here. If we allow 90% complete then someone will beg for 89% complete, or 88% complete. But then we have to be strict as 99% is also near to 100%. ;-) What I would favor is making builds available, maybe at the level of AOO 4.0, in all languages that are close, maybe 80% or 90%. Not for release or distribution, but to help volunteers evaluate its current state and help translate. Good point, +1. Do you think about a L10N release somewhen between releases or as a RC where it's clear from the beginning that it will not be released? In this specific case, for AOO 4.0, I'm suggesting we release any additional languages that are 100% on September 16th. This is similar to what we did for AOO 3.4.1. After that date I think we then wait for AOO 4.1. I don't disagree with the policy of deadlines, but why September 16th? If some languages are ready sooner (like Traditional Chinese) it ought to be possible to have an earlier set. Perhaps we make it once a month? My impression was that several key people are planning on taking vacation after AOO 4.0 is released. Nothing magic about the Sept 16th date. But there is something magic about August ;-) We also need to understand that there will be a certain length of time from a deadline to a language pack release. Is it one week? Right. I was suggesting that date as a release date. We'd need to work backwards to set translation deadlines, etc. You ask about an RC where it is not clear whether it will be released? We may run into that issue if we have a beta for AOO 4.1. I don't think all translations are complete for a beta. (Or are they?) If so it is possible for a beta to include a language that never is included in the final release. This would occur if the translators do not finish the translation. This may sound cruel, but we can use this for recruitment. When we publish the beta we can note that the translation is not finished and that volunteers are welcome. I think that we should be careful to have a UI and Help freeze in advance of releases in order to give plenty of time for language teams to assure that they can meet our high standard of 100%. If we are going to co-ordinate many small teams then we need to establish schedules and try to commit to them. (As Jürgen has done for this RC.) Exactly. -Rob Regards, Dave Regards, -Rob Marcus Am 07/14/2013 05:43 PM, schrieb Kay Schenk: On
Re: [DISCUSS] New localization requirements policy needed for releases
On Jul 14, 2013, at 11:33 AM, Kay Schenk wrote: On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 10:11 AM, Rob Weir robw...@apache.org wrote: On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 12:37 PM, Marcus (OOo) marcus.m...@wtnet.de wrote: I tie up to Kay's suggestion to discuss a new policy. So, new topic, new thread. For reference here is the old policy: http://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Release_criteria#Localization_requirements My new suggestion: 1. Don't make a difference between UI and Help. 2. Accepted translations that are 90% or better. 3. *Except* we have a big or strategic new feature like the Sidebar. This should be translated much better than 90%. Why? 1. Do we want to make differences between UI and help translation? Do average users accept English help topics for translated UI functions? I don't think so. 2. In the previous OOo project translations were accepted with 80% or better for a release. IMHO this is too low to offer a high quality release. 3. New features that are also promoted in release note, blog post, etc. should be fully translated as the attention of our users is high here. They want to give it a try and shouldn't be disappointed with not translated parts. And now, add your points. I'd prefer to keep the current rule, 100% UI translation. But I'd be open to requiring 100% for help as well. IMHO we should be raising the bar, not lowering it. If there is a community willing and able to translate to 90% then there should be community willing and able to translate to 100%. In many cases, it is probably a time factor rather than an interest factor. I'm not really familiar with the normal tracking and communication between translation volunteers and developers on this list with respect to release date targets, however. Maybe this needs improvement. There is no technical or community reason to stop at 90%. It is only a question of time. I'd prefer we just wait for 100% translation and then release it. On the other hand, if a language is stuck at 90% and there are no active volunteers, then I don't think we should release it. If it will not get to 100%, then we're just release something that will reflect poorly on us and will slowly degenerate from release to release. yes, I agree. In other words, if it is merely a case of waiting another month or two and then releasing a high-quality 100% translation, then I think that is better than releasing something only partially done. Also, there is the slippery slope here. If we allow 90% complete then someone will beg for 89% complete, or 88% complete. again, agreement What I would favor is making builds available, maybe at the level of AOO 4.0, in all languages that are close, maybe 80% or 90%. Not for release or distribution, but to help volunteers evaluate its current state and help translate. h...I don't know how this would mesh with Apache release policy. I guess what you're saying is they could be handled like development snapshots, but ultimately fail the release test? We need to investigate this. We need to VOTE to release whether or not it is an official source release or any type of binary convenience release. For the PMC vote on a language pack the bar to +1 won't be as high because the IP concerns differ. Regards, Dave Regards, -Rob Marcus Am 07/14/2013 05:43 PM, schrieb Kay Schenk: On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 8:13 AM, Rob Weirrobw...@apache.org wrote: On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 3:42 AM, Juergen Schmidtjogischm...@gmail.com wrote: Am Sonntag, 14. Juli 2013 um 06:35 schrieb imacat: On 2013/07/13 20:52, Ariel Constenla-Haile said: On Sat, Jul 13, 2013 at 12:20:32PM +0200, Marcus (OOo) wrote: Am 07/13/2013 05:14 AM, schrieb Ariel Constenla-Haile: On Fri, Jul 12, 2013 at 11:54 PM, imacat ima...@mail.imacat.idv.tw wrote: Sorry. I did not see Traditional Chinese version. Did I missed something on the Traditional Chinese version? UI translation is not complete: https://translate.apache.org/zh_TW/aoo40/ I can see that 97% is translated. Not that bad. Do we have an agreement that we need 100% for a release? http://markmail.org/message/pxgvjuw2j3ukqsom Concerns should have been risen at that time, it was discussed on the mailing list, and properly tagged (if it does not happen on the mailing list...). I'm asking because I really don't know it and in former OOo times we have done releases for languages with at least 80% translated UI [1]. So, maybe a change that I haven't seen in the last weeks. For this particular case, the translation of the main 4.0.0 feature is incomplete https://translate.apache.org/zh_TW/aoo40/svx/source/sidebar/ How serious would it be to release this translation in such a state? The same applies to other languages released in 3.4.* but not in this 4.0.0 RC. Hmm... I see the problem with side bar
Re: [DISCUSS] New localization requirements policy needed for releases
On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 2:33 PM, Kay Schenk kay.sch...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 10:11 AM, Rob Weir robw...@apache.org wrote: On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 12:37 PM, Marcus (OOo) marcus.m...@wtnet.de wrote: I tie up to Kay's suggestion to discuss a new policy. So, new topic, new thread. For reference here is the old policy: http://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Release_criteria#Localization_requirements My new suggestion: 1. Don't make a difference between UI and Help. 2. Accepted translations that are 90% or better. 3. *Except* we have a big or strategic new feature like the Sidebar. This should be translated much better than 90%. Why? 1. Do we want to make differences between UI and help translation? Do average users accept English help topics for translated UI functions? I don't think so. 2. In the previous OOo project translations were accepted with 80% or better for a release. IMHO this is too low to offer a high quality release. 3. New features that are also promoted in release note, blog post, etc. should be fully translated as the attention of our users is high here. They want to give it a try and shouldn't be disappointed with not translated parts. And now, add your points. I'd prefer to keep the current rule, 100% UI translation. But I'd be open to requiring 100% for help as well. IMHO we should be raising the bar, not lowering it. If there is a community willing and able to translate to 90% then there should be community willing and able to translate to 100%. In many cases, it is probably a time factor rather than an interest factor. I'm not really familiar with the normal tracking and communication between translation volunteers and developers on this list with respect to release date targets, however. Maybe this needs improvement. There is no technical or community reason to stop at 90%. It is only a question of time. I'd prefer we just wait for 100% translation and then release it. On the other hand, if a language is stuck at 90% and there are no active volunteers, then I don't think we should release it. If it will not get to 100%, then we're just release something that will reflect poorly on us and will slowly degenerate from release to release. yes, I agree. In other words, if it is merely a case of waiting another month or two and then releasing a high-quality 100% translation, then I think that is better than releasing something only partially done. Also, there is the slippery slope here. If we allow 90% complete then someone will beg for 89% complete, or 88% complete. again, agreement What I would favor is making builds available, maybe at the level of AOO 4.0, in all languages that are close, maybe 80% or 90%. Not for release or distribution, but to help volunteers evaluate its current state and help translate. h...I don't know how this would mesh with Apache release policy. I guess what you're saying is they could be handled like development snapshots, but ultimately fail the release test? We need to investigate this. I mean treat it *exactly* like we do a dev snapshot. It is not advertised outside of the project. The only difference is it would be built with the AOO 4.0 release code revision. Or think of itas being an early build of the re-release of AOO 4.0 with additional languages. Eventually, if/when the translation is completed, we have a RC at that time, and a vote and then they are released. -Rob Regards, -Rob Marcus Am 07/14/2013 05:43 PM, schrieb Kay Schenk: On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 8:13 AM, Rob Weirrobw...@apache.org wrote: On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 3:42 AM, Juergen Schmidtjogischm...@gmail.com wrote: Am Sonntag, 14. Juli 2013 um 06:35 schrieb imacat: On 2013/07/13 20:52, Ariel Constenla-Haile said: On Sat, Jul 13, 2013 at 12:20:32PM +0200, Marcus (OOo) wrote: Am 07/13/2013 05:14 AM, schrieb Ariel Constenla-Haile: On Fri, Jul 12, 2013 at 11:54 PM, imacat ima...@mail.imacat.idv.tw wrote: Sorry. I did not see Traditional Chinese version. Did I missed something on the Traditional Chinese version? UI translation is not complete: https://translate.apache.org/zh_TW/aoo40/ I can see that 97% is translated. Not that bad. Do we have an agreement that we need 100% for a release? http://markmail.org/message/pxgvjuw2j3ukqsom Concerns should have been risen at that time, it was discussed on the mailing list, and properly tagged (if it does not happen on the mailing list...). I'm asking because I really don't know it and in former OOo times we have done releases for languages with at least 80% translated UI [1]. So, maybe a change that I haven't seen in the last weeks. For this particular case, the translation of the main 4.0.0 feature is incomplete https://translate.apache.org/zh_TW/aoo40/svx/source/sidebar/
Re: [DISCUSS] New localization requirements policy needed for releases
On Jul 14, 2013, at 11:51 AM, Rob Weir wrote: On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 2:33 PM, Kay Schenk kay.sch...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 10:11 AM, Rob Weir robw...@apache.org wrote: On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 12:37 PM, Marcus (OOo) marcus.m...@wtnet.de wrote: I tie up to Kay's suggestion to discuss a new policy. So, new topic, new thread. For reference here is the old policy: http://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Release_criteria#Localization_requirements My new suggestion: 1. Don't make a difference between UI and Help. 2. Accepted translations that are 90% or better. 3. *Except* we have a big or strategic new feature like the Sidebar. This should be translated much better than 90%. Why? 1. Do we want to make differences between UI and help translation? Do average users accept English help topics for translated UI functions? I don't think so. 2. In the previous OOo project translations were accepted with 80% or better for a release. IMHO this is too low to offer a high quality release. 3. New features that are also promoted in release note, blog post, etc. should be fully translated as the attention of our users is high here. They want to give it a try and shouldn't be disappointed with not translated parts. And now, add your points. I'd prefer to keep the current rule, 100% UI translation. But I'd be open to requiring 100% for help as well. IMHO we should be raising the bar, not lowering it. If there is a community willing and able to translate to 90% then there should be community willing and able to translate to 100%. In many cases, it is probably a time factor rather than an interest factor. I'm not really familiar with the normal tracking and communication between translation volunteers and developers on this list with respect to release date targets, however. Maybe this needs improvement. There is no technical or community reason to stop at 90%. It is only a question of time. I'd prefer we just wait for 100% translation and then release it. On the other hand, if a language is stuck at 90% and there are no active volunteers, then I don't think we should release it. If it will not get to 100%, then we're just release something that will reflect poorly on us and will slowly degenerate from release to release. yes, I agree. In other words, if it is merely a case of waiting another month or two and then releasing a high-quality 100% translation, then I think that is better than releasing something only partially done. Also, there is the slippery slope here. If we allow 90% complete then someone will beg for 89% complete, or 88% complete. again, agreement What I would favor is making builds available, maybe at the level of AOO 4.0, in all languages that are close, maybe 80% or 90%. Not for release or distribution, but to help volunteers evaluate its current state and help translate. h...I don't know how this would mesh with Apache release policy. I guess what you're saying is they could be handled like development snapshots, but ultimately fail the release test? We need to investigate this. I mean treat it *exactly* like we do a dev snapshot. It is not advertised outside of the project. The only difference is it would be built with the AOO 4.0 release code revision. Or think of itas being an early build of the re-release of AOO 4.0 with additional languages. Eventually, if/when the translation is completed, we have a RC at that time, and a vote and then they are released. So a policy could be that we will build Dev Snapshots of Language Packs if the translation is over N%? Where N could be 80 or 75%? I think that this would encourage language communities to make the effort. Regards, Dave -Rob Regards, -Rob Marcus Am 07/14/2013 05:43 PM, schrieb Kay Schenk: On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 8:13 AM, Rob Weirrobw...@apache.org wrote: On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 3:42 AM, Juergen Schmidtjogischm...@gmail.com wrote: Am Sonntag, 14. Juli 2013 um 06:35 schrieb imacat: On 2013/07/13 20:52, Ariel Constenla-Haile said: On Sat, Jul 13, 2013 at 12:20:32PM +0200, Marcus (OOo) wrote: Am 07/13/2013 05:14 AM, schrieb Ariel Constenla-Haile: On Fri, Jul 12, 2013 at 11:54 PM, imacat ima...@mail.imacat.idv.tw wrote: Sorry. I did not see Traditional Chinese version. Did I missed something on the Traditional Chinese version? UI translation is not complete: https://translate.apache.org/zh_TW/aoo40/ I can see that 97% is translated. Not that bad. Do we have an agreement that we need 100% for a release? http://markmail.org/message/pxgvjuw2j3ukqsom Concerns should have been risen at that time, it was discussed on the mailing list, and properly tagged (if it does not happen on the mailing list...). I'm asking because I really don't know it and in former OOo times we have done releases
Re: [DISCUSS] New localization requirements policy needed for releases
2013/7/14 Rob Weir robw...@apache.org On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 12:37 PM, Marcus (OOo) marcus.m...@wtnet.de wrote: I tie up to Kay's suggestion to discuss a new policy. So, new topic, new thread. For reference here is the old policy: http://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Release_criteria#Localization_requirements My new suggestion: 1. Don't make a difference between UI and Help. 2. Accepted translations that are 90% or better. 3. *Except* we have a big or strategic new feature like the Sidebar. This should be translated much better than 90%. Why? 1. Do we want to make differences between UI and help translation? Do average users accept English help topics for translated UI functions? I don't think so. 2. In the previous OOo project translations were accepted with 80% or better for a release. IMHO this is too low to offer a high quality release. 3. New features that are also promoted in release note, blog post, etc. should be fully translated as the attention of our users is high here. They want to give it a try and shouldn't be disappointed with not translated parts. And now, add your points. I'd prefer to keep the current rule, 100% UI translation. But I'd be open to requiring 100% for help as well. IMHO we should be raising the bar, not lowering it. If there is a community willing and able to translate to 90% then there should be community willing and able to translate to 100%. There is no technical or community reason to stop at 90%. It is only a question of time. I'd prefer we just wait for 100% translation and then release it. On the other hand, if a language is stuck at 90% and there are no active volunteers, then I don't think we should release it. If it will not get to 100%, then we're just release something that will reflect poorly on us and will slowly degenerate from release to release. In other words, if it is merely a case of waiting another month or two and then releasing a high-quality 100% translation, then I think that is better than releasing something only partially done. Also, there is the slippery slope here. If we allow 90% complete then someone will beg for 89% complete, or 88% complete. What I would favor is making builds available, maybe at the level of AOO 4.0, in all languages that are close, maybe 80% or 90%. Not for release or distribution, but to help volunteers evaluate its current state and help translate. Fully agree with everything you said. For the UI, any percentage different from 100% is problematic: for the average user it's not the same a 1% missing on an obscure database feature than a 1% missing on the sidebar. Regards Ricardo Regards, -Rob Marcus Am 07/14/2013 05:43 PM, schrieb Kay Schenk: On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 8:13 AM, Rob Weirrobw...@apache.org wrote: On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 3:42 AM, Juergen Schmidtjogischm...@gmail.com wrote: Am Sonntag, 14. Juli 2013 um 06:35 schrieb imacat: On 2013/07/13 20:52, Ariel Constenla-Haile said: On Sat, Jul 13, 2013 at 12:20:32PM +0200, Marcus (OOo) wrote: Am 07/13/2013 05:14 AM, schrieb Ariel Constenla-Haile: On Fri, Jul 12, 2013 at 11:54 PM, imacat ima...@mail.imacat.idv.tw wrote: Sorry. I did not see Traditional Chinese version. Did I missed something on the Traditional Chinese version? UI translation is not complete: https://translate.apache.org/zh_TW/aoo40/ I can see that 97% is translated. Not that bad. Do we have an agreement that we need 100% for a release? http://markmail.org/message/pxgvjuw2j3ukqsom Concerns should have been risen at that time, it was discussed on the mailing list, and properly tagged (if it does not happen on the mailing list...). I'm asking because I really don't know it and in former OOo times we have done releases for languages with at least 80% translated UI [1]. So, maybe a change that I haven't seen in the last weeks. For this particular case, the translation of the main 4.0.0 feature is incomplete https://translate.apache.org/zh_TW/aoo40/svx/source/sidebar/ How serious would it be to release this translation in such a state? The same applies to other languages released in 3.4.* but not in this 4.0.0 RC. Hmm... I see the problem with side bar translation. And I'm very sorry that I was in my research paper and did not notice the previous discussion. However, there are several issues of concern: 1. I am going to give a talk in our largest local open source conference (COSCUP 2013, http://coscup.org/) on 8/3, and plan to announce OpenOffice 4.0. It is the first talk after the key notes. It would be very embarrassing to announce it without a local version released. 2. There would be a large-scale deployment around August or September (6000-7000) in a government department, and they are planning to join our development
