Re: [DDN] admin: thoughts on changing policy re: html messages

[Thomas A Webb]

It seems to me to be easier for us geeks to turn html "off" in our mail 
clients than to expect every one to know how to shut it off 
[selectively] on the send-side for this list. Users of mail clients like 
Pine or Netscape can still see text only mail if we so choose. I agree 
that there is a bandwidth issue, but that appears to me to be a 
relatively small issue. Making the list text-only raises the technical 
bar a bit higher for a lot of people that do need to be heard on this 
list. I suggest we take what comes as much as possible, and leave it to 
the users to control how they read it.

Jesse N. Sinaiko wrote:
Ironically, it seems as if not allowing HTML, or going with plain test
exclusively is, in the end, exclusionary.
Along with creating more work for Andy it keeps some folks, especially as
Andy put it in the Southern Hemisphere, from getting their messages onto the
list.
It seems to me that this alone argues for a looser set of rules.  Plain text
should be encouraged and folks should be educated, but let's not exclude
anyone because their webmail or whatever makes it difficult for them to send
plain test.
Yes, it's a shame that Pine can't read HTML, but the folks who have Pine and
other plain test mail readers will still get everything they are getting
now.  

Jesse Sinaiko

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Re: [DDN] admin: thoughts on changing policy re: html

[Thomas Reid]

As a user of screen reader software I would prefer plain text messages.
However, I agree with the idea that those outside of the US and Europe or
those without email clients should have the ability to participate in the
DDN discussions.

Is there a way to create a page on the DD.net site where those with html
only email can use to send there contributions.  If the form page is setup
to only accept text wouldn't  this be able to submit plaintext only to the
list. Therefore plain text  could still be the accepted format  and the
majority of users will have the ability to contribute.

The exception will be those with emailonly access.

Thomas

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Re: [DDN] admin: thoughts on changing policy re: html messages

[Taran Rampersad]

Tim Arnold wrote:

> Taran,
>
> Keep in mind, that HTML formatted email does not automatically mean
> images and other "web-pagey" things.  When I compose a simple text
> email in Mozilla Thunderbird, it sends as HTML.  There are no images,
> backgrounds, or anything.  Just text, formatted with HTML.  I think
> that the majority of instances that Andy comes across is as I've
> described, rather than the "spam-like" messages you're referring to.

Actually, you're right to a degree. Bu that doesn't mean that the HTML
isn't masking other things. Some SPAM doesn't use images, and since you
use Mozilla, you'll understand the Bayesian filters and how they can
sometimes trash something that looks like something you have labeled as
trash.

> I wonder if it's possible to at least reject messages that have
> embedded images or other attachments and still let through simple font
> tags that many email programs add without the knowledge of casual users?

That's definitely possible. But it becomes problematic because the DDN
has many useful links in it as well. So now the system has to figure out
which is which...

>
> I've selected that this message send using plain text, but the font
> I'm seeing right now, as I'm typing, is Arial.  I'm still not 100%
> sure that parts of this message won't be sent using HTML, and I like
> to think I'm a fairly experienced user.  I won't know for sure until
> it doesn't appear on the list within an hour or two.

It was received in pure non-HTML, simple plain text.

-- 
Taran Rampersad

[EMAIL PROTECTED]

http://www.linuxgazette.com
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RE: [DDN] admin: thoughts on changing policy re: html messages

[Jesse N. Sinaiko]

Ironically, it seems as if not allowing HTML, or going with plain test
exclusively is, in the end, exclusionary.

Along with creating more work for Andy it keeps some folks, especially as
Andy put it in the Southern Hemisphere, from getting their messages onto the
list.

It seems to me that this alone argues for a looser set of rules.  Plain text
should be encouraged and folks should be educated, but let's not exclude
anyone because their webmail or whatever makes it difficult for them to send
plain test.

Yes, it's a shame that Pine can't read HTML, but the folks who have Pine and
other plain test mail readers will still get everything they are getting
now.  

Jesse Sinaiko



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Re: [DDN] admin: thoughts on changing policy re: html messages

[John Hibbs]

At 7:35 PM -0500 1/7/05, James Lerman wrote:
I agree with Pam. I think many people don't know much about this at 
all.  A primer for the neophyte would be excellent I think...don't 
just tell them not to send messages as HTML, tell them how not to 
and how to find out if they are.
Jim Lerman
Agree. Not only might they end up sending *all* their messages in 
plain text they might even cotton to the idea that less can be more.
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RE: [DDN] admin: thoughts on changing policy re: html messages

[BJT]

I believe Andy's point is that the group would still get all the plain text
messages... the policy change would simply allow those HTML messages in...
these are the ones that don't currently go through, and that consume huge
amounts of Andy's time. Allowing HTML doesn't stop the plain text and does
increase the dialogue for those who can use HTML. And it saves Andy's time.
It broadens the base, but does not exclude... and allows Andy to spend more
time on less administrative functions.

Brenda J. Trainor
Frontier Trail, Inc.
Box 935
Monrovia, CA  91017
323.229.2397
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
"Pioneering guidance for
 communications, technologies, and communities."


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Clarance
Knutson
Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 10:15 AM
To: 'The Digital Divide Network discussion group'
Subject: RE: [DDN] admin: thoughts on changing policy re: html messages


Andy,

I prefer getting this group in the plain text format - it takes up less
space.

Clarance

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andy Carvin
Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 8:07 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [DDN] admin: thoughts on changing policy re: html messages


Hi everyone,

In recent months we've had some problems with getting list members'
messages to the list because of the increasing number of messages in
HTML. Historically, we haven't allowed HTML messages on the list because

of bandwidth limits of some users (an html message contains more than
twice the amount of data of a plain text message). Now, though, more
than half of the messages that people try to post to the list come in
HTML, including from developing countries. Because our list software,
Mailman, cannot automatically strip out HTML, it rejects these messages
if I try to post them. This means that I have to email the author and
ask them to repost in plain text, which they don't always do. So many
messages are not getting posted simply because they're submitted in
HTML.

So I'd like to ask for comments from list members about a proposed rule
change regarding HTML messages. The rule change would allow people to
post in HTML, but still not allow attachments, which we block for virus
and bandwidth concerns. Plain text, of course, will still be encouraged,

but members wouldn't be penalized if they didn't comply.

Please let me know what you think. If there's general consensus that
posting in HTML is acceptable to the group, I'll make the rule change in

the FAQ.

thanks,
ac

--
---
Andy Carvin
Program Director
EDC Center for Media & Community
acarvin @ edc . org
http://www.digitaldivide.net
http://www.tsunami-info.org
Blog: http://www.andycarvin.com
---
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Re: [DDN] admin: thoughts on changing policy re: html messages

[Pamela McLean]

Andy Carvin wrote:
(snip) People are repeat offenders (snip) even if they switch it, they soon switch back to html (snip) Another concern (snip) free webmail clients overseas that don't
allow you to toggle between html and text, so they're stuck with HTML and
can't participate.
 

So it looks like it can't be fixed at the place where emails are being 
initiated. And it seems crazy for you to have to intervene in a time 
wasting way. And yet sending out HTML to the list is not desirable for a 
number of reasons. 

I'm not a techie - so the answer to the question I am going to ask may 
be screamingly obvious to anyone who is a  techie - but I shall ask it 
none the less. Can't there be some kind of automatic techie fix for this 
at the moderation point? 

This is the thinking behind the question:
I use Mozilla to send emails. I don't knowingly use HTML in my emails, 
but I guess I sometimes "pick some up along the way" when I am 
forwarding messages. This must be the reason why sometimes when I try to 
send an email I get a warning message from Mozilla about HTML. It tells 
me that some people who I am sending to don't like getting HTML so do I 
want to send in "the usual non HTML way" ... (I can't think what sending 
in the usual way is called). Any how I just click on the choice for not 
sending in HTML and then the email goes through okay. I imagine that 
Mozilla strips out any HTML and sends the email in an acceptable way.

If Mozilla does that for me before I send emails, then why can't Andy 
have something similar automatically built into the moderation process? 
If an email arrives in HTML why can't a warning message be automatically 
generated back to the sender asking for permission for the message to be 
passed on to the list in the ordinary way (without the HTML) and then 
that be done automatically at the point where emails are accepted by the 
moderator? Mozilla is open source. I understand that to mean that people 
who understand these things can use and adapt what has already been done. 

As a non techie I look forward to learning more as I discover if this 
suggestion is Good Idea/Bad idea.

Pam
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Re: [DDN] admin: thoughts on changing policy re: html messages

[Stephen Snow]

Well, if the software can do the heavy lifting, then it wouldn't matter
*what* people did. That's probably easier inthe long run, Andy, than setting
yourself up to bird-dog this or trying to explain to people "well, if you
have this software, click here and then here" to do plain text. Pam is
right, I think: most people don't know or pay attention to that. I get HTML
stuff all the time that i'd prefer not to have and just reformat when i do
replies. but if the s-ware could yank out the tags, that would make the most
sense to me. that doesn't sound like a difficult task, either. there is perl
already that disallows html in guestbooks and the like, so it doesn't seem
like a huge task to write something that would fix it (i say that NOT being
a programmer and as someone who ALWAYS underestimates the effort it takes to
do programming work).

steve snow
===
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[EMAIL PROTECTED] "Where love stops, power
  www.commcure.com   begins, and violence
 704.569.0243   and terror."  -- CG Jung
--
 Artist-Blacksmith Assn. of N. America (www.abana.org)
Assn. For Community Networking (www.afcn.org)
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Int'l Society for the Study of Dissociation (www.issd.org)
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  One Special Christmas (www.onespecialchristmas.org)
 GROW BY GIVING: VOLUNTEER
===
- Original Message - 
From: "Andy Carvin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "The Digital Divide Network discussion group"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 2:48 PM
Subject: Re: [DDN] admin: thoughts on changing policy re: html messages


> That's almost what I'm doing right now - every time a person posts a
> message in HTML they get a rejection notice explaining the problem.
Usually
> people will try to fix it and repost a couple of times, often failing to
> solve the problem, then quit. The idea solution would be for the Mailman
> software to strip out HTML like Yahoogroups or Listserv, but instead it's
> set up to trash messages rather than strip them.
>
> ac
>
> Richard Siddall wrote:
> > Andy Carvin wrote:
> > [snip]
> >
> >>
> >> 4. The amount of time I spend moderating list messages has doubled, if
> >> not tripled, solely due to dealing with this problem, and it is
> >> hampering my ability to provide other more important types of
> >> assistance to list members.
> >>
> > [snip]
> >
> > Well, if you decide to stay with text-only, couldn't you run a script in
> > your MTA that detects incoming non-text e-mails and bounces them with an
> > explanatory message containing a URL that links to the list policy? (The
> > web page might explain how to reconfigure common e-mail clients to send
> > text to particular recipients.)
> >
> > Bouncing in real-time might encourage some posters to resubmit their
> > messages, unlike having the moderator bounce your message several hours
> > later.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Richard Siddall
> >
> > P.S. FWIW, I vote for text-only, but I'm not a member of your target
> group.
> > ___
> > DIGITALDIVIDE mailing list
> > DIGITALDIVIDE@mailman.edc.org
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> > To unsubscribe, send a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > with the word UNSUBSCRIBE in the body of the message.
>
> --
> ---
> Andy Carvin
> Program Director
> EDC Center for Media & Community
> acarvin @ edc . org
> http://www.digitaldivide.net
> http://www.tsunami-info.org
> Blog: http://www.andycarvin.com
> ---
>
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Re: [DDN] admin: thoughts on changing policy re: html messages

[Subbiah Arunachalam]

Often one does not send messages in HTML by choice. What happens is one cuts
and pastes from another source which may be in HTML.

Arun

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Re: [DDN] admin: thoughts on changing policy re: html messages

[David P. Dillard]

If I may be permitted to add to this that there are quite a few people
with email accounts who either do not have internet access or whose
internet access is very basic, including people with disabilities, and use
of pine email and lynx browsers that are text based is the rule with many
people.  I use text based pine email for all of my Temple email account
activities.  For such users of email, the use of html mail causes messages
to be received with annoying HTML tags at the minimum and in many cases
renders them completely unreadable so that they are deleted unread.  As
the moderator of Net-Gold, I spend a substantial amount of time cleaning
up some posts of HTML tagging so that the message is clean when reposting
these coded messages to the archives for the list.  Since this DDN list is
aimed at countries and groups of people within countries who are part of
the digital divide, it would seem to be a premise of the foundation of the
list that such a list would servicable to the lowest common denominator of
ability to capture internet and email content on equipment that may be
old, outdated or limited.  In some areas of the world, bandwidth is
relatively inexpensive, whereas in other areas the cost of internet access
may be a major portion of the income of many families.  A list aimed at
diminishing the digital divide should be aimed in all of its attributes at
maximizing what is received by those whose payment to access the internet
is a sacrificial amount of their salary.  The South Asian disaster, among
its other tragedies will almost certainly increase the ranks of those
without internet access or with much lesser quality access.  To reduce
access to such a group of people of a list that has provided so much
information for them seems to be a bad direction to head.  Otherwise, I am
a big fan of HTML mail. 


Got DOS? Get Internet!



Finally: Broadband for the Commodore 64


Posted by CmdrTaco on Thu Sep 18, '03 04:36 PM
from the answer-to-a-question-that-didn't-need-asking dept.
GP writes "Now even die-hard Commodore 64 users are able to enjoy the
benefits of broadband Internet connectivity. A newly announced Ethernet
card together with the Contiki operating system lets you surf the web,
send e-mail, host web sites with the built-in web server, and soon even
play LAN games on your good old Commodore 64! All this with a computer
that is old enough to drink."


The no-frills US$199 computer
The US$199 personal computer has arrived ... without Microsoft or Intel
inside


Wal-Mart has begun to offer a computer built by Microtel which is made for
the simple broadband user in mind. The computer comes with no floppy disk
drive and no modem, but does include a 10/100 Ethernet card. It also
features a small 10 GB hard drive, 128 MB of RAM, a CD-ROM drive (not a
burner), and comes with a sound card and speakers. The processor running
the computer is a VIA 800MHz C3 processor.

Though the processor may be slower than its higher speed counterparts, the
speed of the processor is not as much a factor for a computer marketed
toward broadband Internet use.

The operating system running the computer is the Linux-based Lycoris
Desktop/LX. This Linux-based OS has much the same look and feel of Windows
XP.

The Digital Beat
Vol. 2, No. 23, January 2000
By Jamal Le Blanc
The Digital Divide:
Evolving Awareness and Evolving Solutions



Bridging the Digital Divide



UNDERSTANDING THE DIGITAL ECONOMY
Data, Tools and Research
May 25 and 26, 1999
US Department of Commerce
Washington DC
THE GROWING DIGITAL DIVIDE IN ACCESS FOR PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES:
OVERCOMING BARRIERS TO PARTICIPATION IN THE DIGITAL ECONOMY
By
Cynthia D. Waddell, J.D.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



South Africans Online: 'Digital Divide' and the Network Society



Accessibility and Usability of Information Technology by the Elderly
Hilary Browne
Department of Computer Science
University of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742 USA
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
April 19, 2000



Why Fiber Optics Can't Solve Today's Broadband Shortage - Technology
Information
Computer Technology Review,  Jan, 2001  by Gilad Rozen



Africa Takes On the Digital Divide
Africa Recovery (New York)
ANALYSIS
October 23, 2003
Posted to the web October 23, 2003
Gumisai Mutume
New York
New information technologies change the lives of those in reach


I hope that these links serve as a reminder of the worlds referred to in
the content heading of this list as factors in the decisio

RE: [DDN] admin: thoughts on changing policy re: html messages

[AJ Mollo]

I've recently been traveling to some remote areas in El Salvador, Bangladesh
and India, and I've had no problem accessing HTML-format emails via
equipment that is decidedly not state-of-the-art.  I think you can safely
change the policy.

AJM

~~~
AJ Mollo & Associates
Management Consulting to Professional & NonProfit Organizations
Internet & Multimedia Marketing & Communications
Celebrity Development
Phone: 203.926.1199
E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Andy Carvin
Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 11:07 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [DDN] admin: thoughts on changing policy re: html messages

Hi everyone,

In recent months we've had some problems with getting list members'
messages to the list because of the increasing number of messages in
HTML. Historically, we haven't allowed HTML messages on the list because
of bandwidth limits of some users (an html message contains more than
twice the amount of data of a plain text message). Now, though, more
than half of the messages that people try to post to the list come in
HTML, including from developing countries. Because our list software,
Mailman, cannot automatically strip out HTML, it rejects these messages
if I try to post them. This means that I have to email the author and
ask them to repost in plain text, which they don't always do. So many
messages are not getting posted simply because they're submitted in HTML.

So I'd like to ask for comments from list members about a proposed rule
change regarding HTML messages. The rule change would allow people to
post in HTML, but still not allow attachments, which we block for virus
and bandwidth concerns. Plain text, of course, will still be encouraged,
but members wouldn't be penalized if they didn't comply.

Please let me know what you think. If there's general consensus that
posting in HTML is acceptable to the group, I'll make the rule change in
the FAQ.

thanks,
ac

--
---
Andy Carvin
Program Director
EDC Center for Media & Community
acarvin @ edc . org
http://www.digitaldivide.net
http://www.tsunami-info.org
Blog: http://www.andycarvin.com
---
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Re: [DDN] admin: thoughts on changing policy re: html messages

[Andy Carvin]

Again, these are repeat offenders, many of whom I've explained exactly 
what to do to shut off their HTML. Sometimes they fix it temporarily but 
the next time they post their back to HTML. And for others, they're 
using obscure email tools that I have no way of knowing how to explain 
to them how to fix it. Yet others use email systems that offer no plain 
text option whatsoever.

Apparently we may have a solution - the latest version of Mailman 
software has an HTML stripping tool. The version of the software we're 
using does not. I've asked EDC's tech team to upgrade Mailman. Hopefully 
they'll respond positively.

thanks,
ac
James Lerman wrote:
I agree with Pam. I think many people don't know much about this at 
all.  A primer for the neophyte would be excellent I think...don't just 
tell them not to send messages as HTML, tell them how not to and how to 
find out if they are.
Jim Lerman

Pamela McLean wrote:
Maybe people don't always understand that their messages are going out 
as HTML messages, and/or don't know how to make the choice...

Maybe there could be some helpful instructions about this when people 
join the list - repeated when/if the moderator needs to respond to a 
message that's been sent in HTML.

Pam
At 11:07 AM -0500 1/7/05, Andy Carvin wrote:
Hi everyone,
In recent months we've had some problems with getting list members' 
messages to the list because of the increasing number of messages in 
HTML. (snip)


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http://www.tsunami-info.org
Blog: http://www.andycarvin.com
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Re: [DDN] admin: thoughts on changing policy re: html messages

[John Hibbs]

Hibbs' third cent: It's hard  - and rare - to successfully argue with 
Bonnie Bracey, one very brilliant individual. It's important for a 
guy with Andy's skills to not waste time fixing things that no longer 
need fixing -- which also bends the case toward unlocking HTML gates. 
And if the visually impaired and members in the countries mentioned 
don't object, then why should I push back?

Here's why - Partly based on the tree huggers here in Oregon, and 
partly based on worries about a world gone nuts in the business of 
heavier and heavier consumption, and partly based on the logic behind 
Stuart Brand's The Clock of the Long Now {http://www.longnow.org}, 
I'd like to promote - everywhere - the idea that, many times, less is 
more.

My argument is not so much about bandwidth saving as it is about 
developing a cultural philosophy with and through people - such as 
are found on this list - who share my over-consumption worries.

There may well be rich textual gains from HTML, and less work for 
Andy - but at what cost to a culture many of us on this list would 
like to nurture?

That's why I push back. :)
At 12:19 PM -0500 1/7/05, Andy Carvin wrote:
Hi John,
That was my feeling as well for many years, but I'm beginning to 
change my mind for several reasons:

1. The majority of people who try to post in HTML on DDN are not in 
the US or Europe, but in the South, so apparently there has been 
significant growth of html-friendly email browsers there.

2. Many people who post in HTML but then are asked by me to post in 
text do not -- or cannot -- switch to HTML, so their message never 
gets posted. This may represent as many as one in five messages 
posted to the list. And the majority of those who have a hard time 
changing their settings to plain text are in developing countries, 
so their messages aren't receiving fair representation on the list.

3. An early reason for this policy was also to help people who used 
screen-reading software, but now this software is generally better 
than it used to be and can usually read HTML. (If this isn't the 
case for any list members, please speak up now.)

4. The amount of time I spend moderating list messages has doubled, 
if not tripled, solely due to dealing with this problem, and it is 
hampering my ability to provide other more important types of 
assistance to list members.

Personally, I plan to base my final decision on input from two key 
groups: DDN members in developing nations and members who are 
visually impaired, since they are the groups that would be affected 
by the change. If people from either of these constituencies respond 
by saying that their participation in the list will indeed be 
hampered by HTML messages, then I won't change the policy. But if 
it's not longer an issue for them, I'm going to have to change the 
policy just to make the list fully functional again

ac
John Hibbs wrote:
I for one hope the present (HTML) policy continues.
It seems this is especially important for a group devoted to 
narrowing the digital divide. Yes, it may well be that most of us 
on this list have broadband, super fast computers and live in 
countries where electronic mail zips easily and instantly...but the 
great, great, great balance of the world doesn't have these 
advantagesand won't for a good long time.

Let the spammers choke on their own HTML. Let's keep the policy - 
and in fact encourage our members to send *all* mail in plain text.

My two cents.
John Hibbs
http://www.bfranklin.edu/johnhibbs
At 11:07 AM -0500 1/7/05, Andy Carvin wrote:
Hi everyone,
In recent months we've had some problems with getting list 
members' messages to the list because of the increasing number of 
messages in HTML. Historically, we haven't allowed HTML messages 
on the list because of bandwidth limits of some users (an html 
message contains more than twice the amount of data of a plain 
text message). Now, though, more than half of the messages that 
people try to post to the list come in HTML, including from 
developing countries. Because our list software, Mailman, cannot 
automatically strip out HTML, it rejects these messages if I try 
to post them. This means that I have to email the author and ask 
them to repost in plain text, which they don't always do. So many 
messages are not getting posted simply because they're submitted 
in HTML.

So I'd like to ask for comments from list members about a proposed 
rule change regarding HTML messages. The rule change would allow 
people to post in HTML, but still not allow attachments, which we 
block for virus and bandwidth concerns. Plain text, of course, 
will still be encouraged, but members wouldn't be penalized if 
they didn't comply.

Please let me know what you think. If there's general consensus 
that posting in HTML is acceptable to the group, I'll make the 
rule change in the FAQ.

thanks,
ac

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Re: [DDN] admin: thoughts on changing policy re: html messages

[Andy Carvin]

Hi Richard,
One of the problems is that many list members have problems changing 
their software settings: I know lots of edtech professionals who still 
haven't managed to fix their settings, so we go through this every time 
they post (you know who you are ). Also, there are so many browser 
types, not to mention so many types of webmail tools, that there's no 
way for me to have a step-by-step instruction for how to make the 
change. I've tried and it simply doesn't work - either I don't know the 
tool they're using or they're unable to get it to work even with 
instructions.

Regarding attachments, they've never been allowed nor will I start 
allowing them. I just mentioned it so people would understand that the 
only rule I propose changing is that regarding HTML messages.

Richard Kimmel wrote:
Andy;
It seems since at least with Outlook you can set message type right off a
button that staying plain text is best. To me the issue would be that the
people who are part of the digital divide will be cut off potentially if we
use HTML. 

As for attachments are they important? Are they very frequent?  If so could
a link to a resource area be set up that the sender would post the
attachment into so others can retrieve the attachment? Which says the sender
should set an url in their message that points at the document on the
appropriate site. It seems over the years I do not remember attachments
anyway it seems usually url's pointing at some information. That works fine
for me.
Richard W. Kimmel, Jr
DBA South Park Solutions
PO Box 201201
Denver, CO 80220
(V) 303-394-3232
(F) 866-211-7926
Have a beautiful day, tomorrow is not promised
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andy Carvin
Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 9:07 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [DDN] admin: thoughts on changing policy re: html messages
Hi everyone,
In recent months we've had some problems with getting list members' 
messages to the list because of the increasing number of messages in 
HTML. Historically, we haven't allowed HTML messages on the list because 
of bandwidth limits of some users (an html message contains more than 
twice the amount of data of a plain text message). Now, though, more 
than half of the messages that people try to post to the list come in 
HTML, including from developing countries. Because our list software, 
Mailman, cannot automatically strip out HTML, it rejects these messages 
if I try to post them. This means that I have to email the author and 
ask them to repost in plain text, which they don't always do. So many 
messages are not getting posted simply because they're submitted in HTML.

So I'd like to ask for comments from list members about a proposed rule 
change regarding HTML messages. The rule change would allow people to 
post in HTML, but still not allow attachments, which we block for virus 
and bandwidth concerns. Plain text, of course, will still be encouraged, 
but members wouldn't be penalized if they didn't comply.

Please let me know what you think. If there's general consensus that 
posting in HTML is acceptable to the group, I'll make the rule change in 
the FAQ.

thanks,
ac
--
---
Andy Carvin
Program Director
EDC Center for Media & Community
acarvin @ edc . org
http://www.digitaldivide.net
http://www.tsunami-info.org
Blog: http://www.andycarvin.com
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Re: [DDN] admin: thoughts on changing policy re: html messages

[paolo]

dear all,

i join my small voice to the group of those who do *not* want html in
their mailbox since i do not always have a good interent connection
here in morocco. but i think bandwidth concerns are not the only ones:

> 1. The majority of people who try to post in HTML on DDN are not in the
> US or Europe, but in the South, so apparently there has been significant
> growth of html-friendly email browsers there.

this simply means that there has been a significant growth of people
taking the default settings of their client without further thinking.
these are the same who send huge attachments, like a word document with a
30 KBytes logo and a 30 Bytes message like "there is meeting next friday".
this simply happens because it has become increasingly easy to misbehave
in the net.

i personally won't encourage those behaviours, but of course, priority
goes to who spend his/her time to admin the list.

p.


--
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http://palmerini.org
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RE: [DDN] admin: thoughts on changing policy re: html messages

[Magar Matsuoka, Brigitte]

posting in html is fine with me.
...Bri

> --
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Andy Carvin
> Reply To: The Digital Divide Network discussion group
> Sent: Friday, January 7, 2005 11:07 AM
> To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject:  [DDN] admin: thoughts on changing policy re: html messages
> 
> Hi everyone,
> 
> In recent months we've had some problems with getting list members' 
> messages to the list because of the increasing number of messages in 
> HTML. Historically, we haven't allowed HTML messages on the list because 
> of bandwidth limits of some users (an html message contains more than 
> twice the amount of data of a plain text message). Now, though, more 
> than half of the messages that people try to post to the list come in 
> HTML, including from developing countries. Because our list software, 
> Mailman, cannot automatically strip out HTML, it rejects these messages 
> if I try to post them. This means that I have to email the author and 
> ask them to repost in plain text, which they don't always do. So many 
> messages are not getting posted simply because they're submitted in HTML.
> 
> So I'd like to ask for comments from list members about a proposed rule 
> change regarding HTML messages. The rule change would allow people to 
> post in HTML, but still not allow attachments, which we block for virus 
> and bandwidth concerns. Plain text, of course, will still be encouraged, 
> but members wouldn't be penalized if they didn't comply.
> 
> Please let me know what you think. If there's general consensus that 
> posting in HTML is acceptable to the group, I'll make the rule change in 
> the FAQ.
> 
> thanks,
> ac
> 
> -- 
> ---
> Andy Carvin
> Program Director
> EDC Center for Media & Community
> acarvin @ edc . org
> http://www.digitaldivide.net
> http://www.tsunami-info.org
> Blog: http://www.andycarvin.com
> ---
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> http://mailman.edc.org/mailman/listinfo/digitaldivide
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> in the body of the message.
> 
> 

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Re: [DDN] admin: thoughts on changing policy re: html messages

[Taran Rampersad]

John Hibbs wrote:

> Hibbs' third cent: It's hard - and rare - to successfully argue with
> Bonnie Bracey, one very brilliant individual.

Couldn't leave this alone. :-) When it comes to disagreeing with Bonnie,
it's conservative to think you're wrong and work from there. :-)
I haven't had a good discussion with Bonnie in a while. :-(

-- 
Taran Rampersad

[EMAIL PROTECTED]

http://www.linuxgazette.com
http://www.a42.com
http://www.worldchanging.com
http://www.knowprose.com
http://www.easylum.net

"Criticize by creating." — Michelangelo


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Re: [DDN] admin: thoughts on changing policy re: html messages

[Taran Rampersad]

My two cents: If someone really needs HTML for emphasis, there are
plenty of resources to make it available through a link. Frankly, the
second I see HTML in a message, my gut says 'SPAM'. While it may be
pretty, the bottom line is really communication.

What's really good about plain text is that it works with any email
client. Some email clients do not generate proper HTML, or when they do
generate HTML it is quite bloated (do you really need a name?).

HTML messages on non-secure Windows machines is also a really great way
to hide a script and run a virus when it loads.

Do I really need a fancy background, or a picture, etc, in an email? I
don't think so...

Andy Carvin wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>
> In recent months we've had some problems with getting list members'
> messages to the list because of the increasing number of messages in
> HTML. Historically, we haven't allowed HTML messages on the list
> because of bandwidth limits of some users (an html message contains
> more than twice the amount of data of a plain text message). Now,
> though, more than half of the messages that people try to post to the
> list come in HTML, including from developing countries. Because our
> list software, Mailman, cannot automatically strip out HTML, it
> rejects these messages if I try to post them. This means that I have
> to email the author and ask them to repost in plain text, which they
> don't always do. So many messages are not getting posted simply
> because they're submitted in HTML.
>
> So I'd like to ask for comments from list members about a proposed
> rule change regarding HTML messages. The rule change would allow
> people to post in HTML, but still not allow attachments, which we
> block for virus and bandwidth concerns. Plain text, of course, will
> still be encouraged, but members wouldn't be penalized if they didn't
> comply.
>
> Please let me know what you think. If there's general consensus that
> posting in HTML is acceptable to the group, I'll make the rule change
> in the FAQ.
>
> thanks,
> ac
>


-- 
Taran Rampersad

[EMAIL PROTECTED]

http://www.linuxgazette.com
http://www.a42.com
http://www.worldchanging.com
http://www.knowprose.com
http://www.easylum.net

"Criticize by creating." — Michelangelo


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Re: [DDN] admin: thoughts on changing policy re: html messages

[James Lerman]

I agree with Pam. I think many people don't know much about this at 
all.  A primer for the neophyte would be excellent I think...don't just 
tell them not to send messages as HTML, tell them how not to and how to 
find out if they are.
Jim Lerman

Pamela McLean wrote:
Maybe people don't always understand that their messages are going out 
as HTML messages, and/or don't know how to make the choice...

Maybe there could be some helpful instructions about this when people 
join the list - repeated when/if the moderator needs to respond to a 
message that's been sent in HTML.

Pam
At 11:07 AM -0500 1/7/05, Andy Carvin wrote:
Hi everyone,
In recent months we've had some problems with getting list members' 
messages to the list because of the increasing number of messages in 
HTML. (snip)


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RE: [DDN] admin: thoughts on changing policy re: html messages

[Anne Shroeder]

Hi Andy,

What version of mailman are you using?  We are on 2.1.2 and it does not
reject HTML posts.  Additionally, there is an option to convert HTML to
plain text (under content filtering).

However, I'm not in favor of allowing HTML posts to go through.  Too much
bandwidth, too much noise, and too many people who use purple fonts in
italics.

Anne
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re: [DDN] admin: thoughts on changing policy re: html messages

[Andy Carvin]

Tried it. Doesn't work. People are repeat offenders. They don't like the
fact that they have to change their settings just to participate in this
one group, so even if they switch it, they soon switch back to html, and
the next time they post, I have to start all over again. (sometimes as many
as a dozen times, if not more.) Another concern that several people have
mentioned to me is that they use free webmail clients overseas that don't
allow you to toggle between html and text, so they're stuck with HTML and
can't participate.

ac

Pamela McLean wrote:
> Maybe people don't always understand that their messages are going out
> as HTML messages, and/or don't know how to make the choice...
>
> Maybe there could be some helpful instructions about this when people
> join the list - repeated when/if the moderator needs to respond to a
> message that's been sent in HTML.
>
> Pam
>
> At 11:07 AM -0500 1/7/05, Andy Carvin wrote:
>
>>> Hi everyone,
>>>
>>> In recent months we've had some problems with getting list members'
>>> messages to the list because of the increasing number of messages in
>>> HTML. (snip)
>>
>>
>>
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--
---
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Program Director
EDC Center for Media & Community
acarvin @ edc . org
http://www.digitaldivide.net
http://www.tsunami-info.org
Blog: http://www.andycarvin.com
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RE: [DDN] admin: thoughts on changing policy re: html messages

[Bob J]

DDN members,
As a Vocational Rehabilition professional, I vote to keep messages
posted in plain text. I support this for several reasons...
-Text to Speech engines for visually impaired persons read it easier
-HTML communication can be loaded with malware or malicious scripts
-It reduces bandwidth usage to mailservers all over the internet
-We don't have to put up with stupid 'hot bar' smiley faces!
Thanks, Andy, for all the work you do moderating the list
Bob Johnson
Community Services Director
Productive Alternatives, Inc.

-Original Message-
From: Andy Carvin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 10:07 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [DDN] admin: thoughts on changing policy re: html messages


Hi everyone,

In recent months we've had some problems with getting list members' 
messages to the list because of the increasing number of messages in 
HTML. Historically, we haven't allowed HTML messages on the list because 
of bandwidth limits of some users (an html message contains more than 
twice the amount of data of a plain text message). Now, though, more 
than half of the messages that people try to post to the list come in 
HTML, including from developing countries. Because our list software, 
Mailman, cannot automatically strip out HTML, it rejects these messages 
if I try to post them. This means that I have to email the author and 
ask them to repost in plain text, which they don't always do. So many 
messages are not getting posted simply because they're submitted in HTML.

So I'd like to ask for comments from list members about a proposed rule 
change regarding HTML messages. The rule change would allow people to 
post in HTML, but still not allow attachments, which we block for virus 
and bandwidth concerns. Plain text, of course, will still be encouraged, 
but members wouldn't be penalized if they didn't comply.

Please let me know what you think. If there's general consensus that 
posting in HTML is acceptable to the group, I'll make the rule change in 
the FAQ.

thanks,
ac

-- 
---
Andy Carvin
Program Director
EDC Center for Media & Community
acarvin @ edc . org
http://www.digitaldivide.net
http://www.tsunami-info.org
Blog: http://www.andycarvin.com
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Re: [DDN] admin: thoughts on changing policy re: html messages

[Andy Carvin]

That's almost what I'm doing right now - every time a person posts a
message in HTML they get a rejection notice explaining the problem. Usually
people will try to fix it and repost a couple of times, often failing to
solve the problem, then quit. The idea solution would be for the Mailman
software to strip out HTML like Yahoogroups or Listserv, but instead it's
set up to trash messages rather than strip them.

ac

Richard Siddall wrote:
> Andy Carvin wrote:
> [snip]
>
>>
>> 4. The amount of time I spend moderating list messages has doubled, if
>> not tripled, solely due to dealing with this problem, and it is
>> hampering my ability to provide other more important types of
>> assistance to list members.
>>
> [snip]
>
> Well, if you decide to stay with text-only, couldn't you run a script in
> your MTA that detects incoming non-text e-mails and bounces them with an
> explanatory message containing a URL that links to the list policy? (The
> web page might explain how to reconfigure common e-mail clients to send
> text to particular recipients.)
>
> Bouncing in real-time might encourage some posters to resubmit their
> messages, unlike having the moderator bounce your message several hours
> later.
>
> Regards,
>
> Richard Siddall
>
> P.S. FWIW, I vote for text-only, but I'm not a member of your target
group.
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EDC Center for Media & Community
acarvin @ edc . org
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http://www.tsunami-info.org
Blog: http://www.andycarvin.com
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RE: [DDN] admin: thoughts on changing policy re: html messages

[BJT]

Andy:
My two cents:  Your time is too valuable -- change the policy.

All the best.

Brenda J. Trainor
Frontier Trail, Inc.
Box 935
Monrovia, CA  91017
323.229.2397
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
"Pioneering guidance for
 communications, technologies, and communities."


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Andy Carvin
Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 9:20 AM
To: The Digital Divide Network discussion group
Subject: Re: [DDN] admin: thoughts on changing policy re: html messages


Hi John,

That was my feeling as well for many years, but I'm beginning to change
my mind for several reasons:

1. The majority of people who try to post in HTML on DDN are not in the
US or Europe, but in the South, so apparently there has been significant
growth of html-friendly email browsers there.

2. Many people who post in HTML but then are asked by me to post in text
do not -- or cannot -- switch to HTML, so their message never gets
posted. This may represent as many as one in five messages posted to the
list. And the majority of those who have a hard time changing their
settings to plain text are in developing countries, so their messages
aren't receiving fair representation on the list.

3. An early reason for this policy was also to help people who used
screen-reading software, but now this software is generally better than
it used to be and can usually read HTML. (If this isn't the case for any
list members, please speak up now.)

4. The amount of time I spend moderating list messages has doubled, if
not tripled, solely due to dealing with this problem, and it is
hampering my ability to provide other more important types of assistance
to list members.

Personally, I plan to base my final decision on input from two key
groups: DDN members in developing nations and members who are visually
impaired, since they are the groups that would be affected by the
change. If people from either of these constituencies respond by saying
that their participation in the list will indeed be hampered by HTML
messages, then I won't change the policy. But if it's not longer an
issue for them, I'm going to have to change the policy just to make the
list fully functional again

ac


John Hibbs wrote:
> I for one hope the present (HTML) policy continues.
>
> It seems this is especially important for a group devoted to narrowing
> the digital divide. Yes, it may well be that most of us on this list
> have broadband, super fast computers and live in countries where
> electronic mail zips easily and instantly...but the great, great, great
> balance of the world doesn't have these advantagesand won't for a
> good long time.
>
> Let the spammers choke on their own HTML. Let's keep the policy - and in
> fact encourage our members to send *all* mail in plain text.
>
> My two cents.
> John Hibbs
> http://www.bfranklin.edu/johnhibbs
>
> At 11:07 AM -0500 1/7/05, Andy Carvin wrote:
>
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>> In recent months we've had some problems with getting list members'
>> messages to the list because of the increasing number of messages in
>> HTML. Historically, we haven't allowed HTML messages on the list
>> because of bandwidth limits of some users (an html message contains
>> more than twice the amount of data of a plain text message). Now,
>> though, more than half of the messages that people try to post to the
>> list come in HTML, including from developing countries. Because our
>> list software, Mailman, cannot automatically strip out HTML, it
>> rejects these messages if I try to post them. This means that I have
>> to email the author and ask them to repost in plain text, which they
>> don't always do. So many messages are not getting posted simply
>> because they're submitted in HTML.
>>
>> So I'd like to ask for comments from list members about a proposed
>> rule change regarding HTML messages. The rule change would allow
>> people to post in HTML, but still not allow attachments, which we
>> block for virus and bandwidth concerns. Plain text, of course, will
>> still be encouraged, but members wouldn't be penalized if they didn't
>> comply.
>>
>> Please let me know what you think. If there's general consensus that
>> posting in HTML is acceptable to the group, I'll make the rule change
>> in the FAQ.
>>
>> thanks,
>> ac
>
>
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Pr

Re: [DDN] admin: thoughts on changing policy re: html messages

[Andy Carvin]

Hi Jorge,
Congratulations on starting your new blog, and thanks for your comments. 
Regarding your problems accessing your profile, I'm not sure what's 
causing that - no one else has reported a similar problem, at least not 
yet. Could you email me off-list and let me know what type of computer 
and browser you are using?

As for editing your blog, it's easy: click on the blog entry you wish to 
edit and scroll down to the bottom. The edit button will appear next to 
the date and time of the blog.

thanks,
ac
Jorge Gallardo Rius wrote:
Hi Andy,
  The machines I work with accept messages in text and
html so I'm fine with either one.
  I posted my first ever blog, encouraged by your
excellent articles on how to do it.  It is at:
http://www.digitaldivide.net/blog/jgallardo
After visualizing the blog and learning where the
different elements were placed, I wanted to make some
minor adjustments.  I tried to modify the picture
size, then I tried to delete it, then I wanted to
delete the first sentence of the blog because it
repeats the title, but never found a way to do these
things.  Please help me.
  Also, after I sign in, I have a hard time trying to
access my profile from anyplace inside DDN.  The left
window doesn't immediately appear.
  I've enjoyed the changes you've made and want to use
DDN more for my research and writing.
  Thank you very much.
  Jorge Gallardo Rius
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
---
Andy Carvin
Program Director
EDC Center for Media & Community
acarvin @ edc . org
http://www.digitaldivide.net
http://www.tsunami-info.org
Blog: http://www.andycarvin.com
---
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RE: [DDN] admin: thoughts on changing policy re: html messages

[Clarance Knutson]

Andy,

I prefer getting this group in the plain text format - it takes up less
space.

Clarance

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andy Carvin
Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 8:07 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [DDN] admin: thoughts on changing policy re: html messages


Hi everyone,

In recent months we've had some problems with getting list members' 
messages to the list because of the increasing number of messages in 
HTML. Historically, we haven't allowed HTML messages on the list because

of bandwidth limits of some users (an html message contains more than 
twice the amount of data of a plain text message). Now, though, more 
than half of the messages that people try to post to the list come in 
HTML, including from developing countries. Because our list software, 
Mailman, cannot automatically strip out HTML, it rejects these messages 
if I try to post them. This means that I have to email the author and 
ask them to repost in plain text, which they don't always do. So many 
messages are not getting posted simply because they're submitted in
HTML.

So I'd like to ask for comments from list members about a proposed rule 
change regarding HTML messages. The rule change would allow people to 
post in HTML, but still not allow attachments, which we block for virus 
and bandwidth concerns. Plain text, of course, will still be encouraged,

but members wouldn't be penalized if they didn't comply.

Please let me know what you think. If there's general consensus that 
posting in HTML is acceptable to the group, I'll make the rule change in

the FAQ.

thanks,
ac

-- 
---
Andy Carvin
Program Director
EDC Center for Media & Community
acarvin @ edc . org
http://www.digitaldivide.net
http://www.tsunami-info.org
Blog: http://www.andycarvin.com
---
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Re: [DDN] admin: thoughts on changing policy re: html messages

[Richard Siddall]

Andy Carvin wrote:
[snip]
4. The amount of time I spend moderating list messages has doubled, if 
not tripled, solely due to dealing with this problem, and it is 
hampering my ability to provide other more important types of assistance 
to list members.

[snip]
Well, if you decide to stay with text-only, couldn't you run a script in 
your MTA that detects incoming non-text e-mails and bounces them with an 
explanatory message containing a URL that links to the list policy? 
(The web page might explain how to reconfigure common e-mail clients to 
send text to particular recipients.)

Bouncing in real-time might encourage some posters to resubmit their 
messages, unlike having the moderator bounce your message several hours 
later.

Regards,
Richard Siddall
P.S. FWIW, I vote for text-only, but I'm not a member of your target group.
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Re: [DDN] admin: thoughts on changing policy re: html messages

[Pamela McLean]

Maybe people don't always understand that their messages are going out 
as HTML messages, and/or don't know how to make the choice...

Maybe there could be some helpful instructions about this when people 
join the list - repeated when/if the moderator needs to respond to a 
message that's been sent in HTML.

Pam
At 11:07 AM -0500 1/7/05, Andy Carvin wrote:
Hi everyone,
In recent months we've had some problems with getting list members' 
messages to the list because of the increasing number of messages in 
HTML. (snip)

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RE: [DDN] admin: thoughts on changing policy re: html messages

[Richard Kimmel]

Andy;

It seems since at least with Outlook you can set message type right off a
button that staying plain text is best. To me the issue would be that the
people who are part of the digital divide will be cut off potentially if we
use HTML. 

As for attachments are they important? Are they very frequent?  If so could
a link to a resource area be set up that the sender would post the
attachment into so others can retrieve the attachment? Which says the sender
should set an url in their message that points at the document on the
appropriate site. It seems over the years I do not remember attachments
anyway it seems usually url's pointing at some information. That works fine
for me.

Richard W. Kimmel, Jr
DBA South Park Solutions
PO Box 201201
Denver, CO 80220
(V) 303-394-3232
(F) 866-211-7926
Have a beautiful day, tomorrow is not promised

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andy Carvin
Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 9:07 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [DDN] admin: thoughts on changing policy re: html messages

Hi everyone,

In recent months we've had some problems with getting list members' 
messages to the list because of the increasing number of messages in 
HTML. Historically, we haven't allowed HTML messages on the list because 
of bandwidth limits of some users (an html message contains more than 
twice the amount of data of a plain text message). Now, though, more 
than half of the messages that people try to post to the list come in 
HTML, including from developing countries. Because our list software, 
Mailman, cannot automatically strip out HTML, it rejects these messages 
if I try to post them. This means that I have to email the author and 
ask them to repost in plain text, which they don't always do. So many 
messages are not getting posted simply because they're submitted in HTML.

So I'd like to ask for comments from list members about a proposed rule 
change regarding HTML messages. The rule change would allow people to 
post in HTML, but still not allow attachments, which we block for virus 
and bandwidth concerns. Plain text, of course, will still be encouraged, 
but members wouldn't be penalized if they didn't comply.

Please let me know what you think. If there's general consensus that 
posting in HTML is acceptable to the group, I'll make the rule change in 
the FAQ.

thanks,
ac

-- 
---
Andy Carvin
Program Director
EDC Center for Media & Community
acarvin @ edc . org
http://www.digitaldivide.net
http://www.tsunami-info.org
Blog: http://www.andycarvin.com
---
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Re: [DDN] admin: thoughts on changing policy re: html messages

[Jorge Gallardo Rius]

Hi Andy,
  The machines I work with accept messages in text and
html so I'm fine with either one.
  I posted my first ever blog, encouraged by your
excellent articles on how to do it.  It is at:

http://www.digitaldivide.net/blog/jgallardo

After visualizing the blog and learning where the
different elements were placed, I wanted to make some
minor adjustments.  I tried to modify the picture
size, then I tried to delete it, then I wanted to
delete the first sentence of the blog because it
repeats the title, but never found a way to do these
things.  Please help me.
  Also, after I sign in, I have a hard time trying to
access my profile from anyplace inside DDN.  The left
window doesn't immediately appear.
  I've enjoyed the changes you've made and want to use
DDN more for my research and writing.
  Thank you very much.
  Jorge Gallardo Rius
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]

--- Andy Carvin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hi everyone,
> 
> In recent months we've had some problems with
> getting list members' 
> messages to the list because of the increasing
> number of messages in 
> HTML. Historically, we haven't allowed HTML messages
> on the list because 
> of bandwidth limits of some users (an html message
> contains more than 
> twice the amount of data of a plain text message).
> Now, though, more 
> than half of the messages that people try to post to
> the list come in 
> HTML, including from developing countries. Because
> our list software, 
> Mailman, cannot automatically strip out HTML, it
> rejects these messages 
> if I try to post them. This means that I have to
> email the author and 
> ask them to repost in plain text, which they don't
> always do. So many 
> messages are not getting posted simply because
> they're submitted in HTML.
> 
> So I'd like to ask for comments from list members
> about a proposed rule 
> change regarding HTML messages. The rule change
> would allow people to 
> post in HTML, but still not allow attachments, which
> we block for virus 
> and bandwidth concerns. Plain text, of course, will
> still be encouraged, 
> but members wouldn't be penalized if they didn't
> comply.
> 
> Please let me know what you think. If there's
> general consensus that 
> posting in HTML is acceptable to the group, I'll
> make the rule change in 
> the FAQ.
> 
> thanks,
> ac
> 
> -- 
> ---
> Andy Carvin
> Program Director
> EDC Center for Media & Community
> acarvin @ edc . org
> http://www.digitaldivide.net
> http://www.tsunami-info.org
> Blog: http://www.andycarvin.com
> ---
> ___
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>
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> To unsubscribe, send a message to
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word
> UNSUBSCRIBE in the body of the message.
> 




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Re: [DDN] admin: thoughts on changing policy re: html messages

[Andy Carvin]

Hi John,
That was my feeling as well for many years, but I'm beginning to change 
my mind for several reasons:

1. The majority of people who try to post in HTML on DDN are not in the 
US or Europe, but in the South, so apparently there has been significant 
growth of html-friendly email browsers there.

2. Many people who post in HTML but then are asked by me to post in text 
do not -- or cannot -- switch to HTML, so their message never gets 
posted. This may represent as many as one in five messages posted to the 
list. And the majority of those who have a hard time changing their 
settings to plain text are in developing countries, so their messages 
aren't receiving fair representation on the list.

3. An early reason for this policy was also to help people who used 
screen-reading software, but now this software is generally better than 
it used to be and can usually read HTML. (If this isn't the case for any 
list members, please speak up now.)

4. The amount of time I spend moderating list messages has doubled, if 
not tripled, solely due to dealing with this problem, and it is 
hampering my ability to provide other more important types of assistance 
to list members.

Personally, I plan to base my final decision on input from two key 
groups: DDN members in developing nations and members who are visually 
impaired, since they are the groups that would be affected by the 
change. If people from either of these constituencies respond by saying 
that their participation in the list will indeed be hampered by HTML 
messages, then I won't change the policy. But if it's not longer an 
issue for them, I'm going to have to change the policy just to make the 
list fully functional again

ac
John Hibbs wrote:
I for one hope the present (HTML) policy continues.
It seems this is especially important for a group devoted to narrowing 
the digital divide. Yes, it may well be that most of us on this list 
have broadband, super fast computers and live in countries where 
electronic mail zips easily and instantly...but the great, great, great 
balance of the world doesn't have these advantagesand won't for a 
good long time.

Let the spammers choke on their own HTML. Let's keep the policy - and in 
fact encourage our members to send *all* mail in plain text.

My two cents.
John Hibbs
http://www.bfranklin.edu/johnhibbs
At 11:07 AM -0500 1/7/05, Andy Carvin wrote:
Hi everyone,
In recent months we've had some problems with getting list members' 
messages to the list because of the increasing number of messages in 
HTML. Historically, we haven't allowed HTML messages on the list 
because of bandwidth limits of some users (an html message contains 
more than twice the amount of data of a plain text message). Now, 
though, more than half of the messages that people try to post to the 
list come in HTML, including from developing countries. Because our 
list software, Mailman, cannot automatically strip out HTML, it 
rejects these messages if I try to post them. This means that I have 
to email the author and ask them to repost in plain text, which they 
don't always do. So many messages are not getting posted simply 
because they're submitted in HTML.

So I'd like to ask for comments from list members about a proposed 
rule change regarding HTML messages. The rule change would allow 
people to post in HTML, but still not allow attachments, which we 
block for virus and bandwidth concerns. Plain text, of course, will 
still be encouraged, but members wouldn't be penalized if they didn't 
comply.

Please let me know what you think. If there's general consensus that 
posting in HTML is acceptable to the group, I'll make the rule change 
in the FAQ.

thanks,
ac

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--
---
Andy Carvin
Program Director
EDC Center for Media & Community
acarvin @ edc . org
http://www.digitaldivide.net
http://www.tsunami-info.org
Blog: http://www.andycarvin.com
---
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Re: [DDN] admin: thoughts on changing policy re: html messages

[John Hibbs]

I for one hope the present (HTML) policy continues.
It seems this is especially important for a group devoted to 
narrowing the digital divide. Yes, it may well be that most of us on 
this list have broadband, super fast computers and live in countries 
where electronic mail zips easily and instantly...but the great, 
great, great balance of the world doesn't have these 
advantagesand won't for a good long time.

Let the spammers choke on their own HTML. Let's keep the policy - and 
in fact encourage our members to send *all* mail in plain text.

My two cents.
John Hibbs
http://www.bfranklin.edu/johnhibbs
At 11:07 AM -0500 1/7/05, Andy Carvin wrote:
Hi everyone,
In recent months we've had some problems with getting list members' 
messages to the list because of the increasing number of messages in 
HTML. Historically, we haven't allowed HTML messages on the list 
because of bandwidth limits of some users (an html message contains 
more than twice the amount of data of a plain text message). Now, 
though, more than half of the messages that people try to post to 
the list come in HTML, including from developing countries. Because 
our list software, Mailman, cannot automatically strip out HTML, it 
rejects these messages if I try to post them. This means that I have 
to email the author and ask them to repost in plain text, which they 
don't always do. So many messages are not getting posted simply 
because they're submitted in HTML.

So I'd like to ask for comments from list members about a proposed 
rule change regarding HTML messages. The rule change would allow 
people to post in HTML, but still not allow attachments, which we 
block for virus and bandwidth concerns. Plain text, of course, will 
still be encouraged, but members wouldn't be penalized if they 
didn't comply.

Please let me know what you think. If there's general consensus that 
posting in HTML is acceptable to the group, I'll make the rule 
change in the FAQ.

thanks,
ac
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