Re: Line lengths discussed in eclipse forum and on reddit
On 09/09/2011 16:49, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/k7pwu/eclipse_default_line_length_of_80_chars_outdated/ Andrei Hum, and it seems a change to 120 default width for Eclipse JDT might very well go ahead: https://bugs.eclipse.org/bugs/show_bug.cgi?id=356851 -- Bruno Medeiros - Software Engineer
Re: Line lengths discussed in eclipse forum and on reddit
On 11/09/2011 21:29, Don wrote: Interesting to me was the quote from Linus, saying that indentation depth should never exceed 3. If you accept that, then 80 characters seems perfectly reasonable. Hum, while it may be true that Java code typically has more indentation levels than say, C, I think that is not even close to being the major contributing factor to line length. Class and method names are likely more influential (in Java, and potentially in other languages as well). As well as function parameters. I give you this example I posted last time this issue was discussed: private static final SimpleDateCachedFormatter futuresDescriptionDateFormat = new SimpleDateCachedFormatter(M ); It's a real life Java line of code. It's 127 in length, so it is over even my preferred maximum (120). Yet there are few tokens, the line is semantically short, it does not do much. Because of that I do not feel like wrapping or splitting it. In D you could shave off the SimpleDateCachedFormatter with an auto type inferrence declarator. It's still 107 chars in length. Maybe rename the variable to futuresDescriptionDF, since the ...DateFormat in the name does not add new info, you can see that is implied by the type? Still 98 characters. That's still 18 over the limit of 80, and that's in D code. (more or less, 'final' would have to changed to const or immutable) -- Bruno Medeiros - Software Engineer
Re: Line lengths discussed in eclipse forum and on reddit
Imperial units are superior. It's zero degrees out. 0 F is actually pretty cold. 0 C is slightly chilly, but nothing to get worked up about. Real men use Kelvin. 0 K is cold. Inches beat centimeters any day of the week. Just like with kilometers, centimeters are useless. (ever gone on a kilometer run? Weak. Mile runs are where it's at.) I always use furlongs/fortnight when quoting speeds to Americans, to make them feel comfortable. There's a wonderful conversion factor: 1 furlong per fortnight = 1 cm per minute.
Re: Line lengths discussed in eclipse forum and on reddit
Sean Kelly Wrote: On Sep 9, 2011, at 8:49 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/k7pwu/eclipse_default_line_length_of_80_chars_outdated/ Does anyone actually like having an editor auto line-wrap code? I have scintilla with custom soft-wrapping code. I write winapi calls in one line and it looks ok.
Re: Line lengths discussed in eclipse forum and on reddit
Adam D. Ruppe Wrote: Fuck these stupid imperial units. Imperial units are superior. Only america uses them. You just learn international standards.
Re: Line lengths discussed in eclipse forum and on reddit
On Tue, 13 Sep 2011 02:52:19 +0200, Adam Ruppe destructiona...@gmail.com wrote: Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: Surely you're jesting. Partially. For the most part, the metric system is better for science, but for day to day stuff? Poo. Lots of silly things to remember and the numbers don't line up well to regular stuff. Could be due to the fact that I'm more used to it, but it's more likely that my preferences are objectively superior to anyone who disagrees :) For what it's worth, I use metric all the time, it being the standard around these here parts (Norway). But - when speaking English, I can't help but think in inches, feet and pounds (not so much drachms, roods and gills). It feels better matched with the language. (Feel free to interpret that in any way you may wish) -- Simen
Re: Line lengths discussed in eclipse forum and on reddit
On Tue, 13 Sep 2011 07:53:24 +0200, Jouko Koski joukokoskispam...@netti.fi wrote: Andrei Alexandrescu seewebsiteforem...@erdani.org wrote: Anyhow, let's move on to date formats. I'm archiving some receipt right now, and I find the mm/dd/yy notation notation quite unpleasant... Touché! :-) I have converted fully to ISO-8601, the *only* reasonable way to write dates. -- Simen
Re: Line lengths discussed in eclipse forum and on reddit
On Tuesday, September 13, 2011 17:15:16 Simen Kjaeraas wrote: On Tue, 13 Sep 2011 07:53:24 +0200, Jouko Koski joukokoskispam...@netti.fi wrote: Andrei Alexandrescu seewebsiteforem...@erdani.org wrote: Anyhow, let's move on to date formats. I'm archiving some receipt right now, and I find the mm/dd/yy notation notation quite unpleasant... Touché! :-) I have converted fully to ISO-8601, the *only* reasonable way to write dates. Indeed. Both the American and European way of writing dates are abysmal. ISO-8601 (-MM-DD), on the other hand, is unambiguous and sorts wonderfully. - Jonathan M Davis
Re: Line lengths discussed in eclipse forum and on reddit
Nick Sabalausky wrote: What font/size do you use? Depends what program I have open. But it's one of these three: fixed size 14 (pixels probably) on linux. (it's a bitmap font that is rxvt's default for me) bitstream vera monospace size 16.. I think.. if I spring for the fanciness of an xterm. and the putty default, which I believe is Courier New, 10 point, if I'm on Windows. Might be more informative to use a screenshot: http://arsdnet.net/desktop.png the white windows are the kind of thing I use for code most often. The email window shows the other linux font. Fuck these stupid imperial units. Imperial units are superior. It's zero degrees out. 0 F is actually pretty cold. 0 C is slightly chilly, but nothing to get worked up about. Inches beat centimeters any day of the week. Just like with kilometers, centimeters are useless. (ever gone on a kilometer run? Weak. Mile runs are where it's at.) You're always going to be doing some multiple or fraction. English units go naturally to fractions - following very useful powers of two! A half inch is... well, half an inch. You can eyeball the middle of a full inch and be on target. What if you want half a centimeter? Now it's some vile 5 mm... still workable though. Turns out that didn't fit either. Let's cut in half again. English: 1/4 inch. Sane. Metric: 2.5 mm gross! So then you have 2mm sometimes, and 3mm sometimes, and it's just a pain to eyeball the difference. Maybe I've lost my mind, but I could swear american rulers and tape measures always used to have imperial along one side and metric along the other. My ruler and square have both, but my yard stick and tape measure are only imperial... (I might do things differently if I were on a widescreen, though. I suspect it's more of a focus model matter. at least for me. (I just refuse to use widescreens, so no big experience there) If clicking a window raises it, it's a pain to stack, since they keep covering each other in underdesired ways. Might as well just maximize it. But, when I can turn that dreadful behavior off, I avoid maximization whenever possible, since I actually can use the whole thing. Anyway on indent size again, I think the biggest problem with me is more outdents rather than indents. if using_ugly_language: i see this change despite being 4 chars if spanish_inquisition: nobody expects amongst our weaponry are such diverse elements as i can totally miss this That last line will mess up my brain. Maybe I'm just so used to eight character indents, but when I see that change, it almost always registers as a single change in level. The indents aren't too bad, since at least there's a block of stuff surrounding it. It's still easy for me to skip past, but not a huge deal. But, outdents are harder to see. I think part of it is I'm so used to seeing changes of 8 that 4*2 = 8*1, so I register one change instead of two. Closing braces help a lot though, since seeing two braces going out very clearly marks the end of /something/. writeln(eating is fun); } } Not ideal, but it at least works for me.
Re: Line lengths discussed in eclipse forum and on reddit
Adam D. Ruppe destructiona...@gmail.com wrote in message news:j4lrbg$s98$1...@digitalmars.com... Nick Sabalausky wrote: What font/size do you use? Might be more informative to use a screenshot: http://arsdnet.net/desktop.png the white windows are the kind of thing I use for code most often. The email window shows the other linux font. Yea, those are definitely more vertical than mine. So a space is narrower for you than for me. Anyway on indent size again, I think the biggest problem with me is more outdents rather than indents. if using_ugly_language: i see this change despite being 4 chars if spanish_inquisition: nobody expects amongst our weaponry are such diverse elements as i can totally miss this That last line will mess up my brain. Maybe I'm just so used to eight character indents, but when I see that change, it almost always registers as a single change in level. True. That's actually one of the reasons I don't like indentation-scoping. It's not so bad with braces.
Re: Line lengths discussed in eclipse forum and on reddit
On 09/12/2011 03:50 PM, Adam D. Ruppe wrote: Imperial units are superior. Surely you're jesting. It's zero degrees out. 0 F is actually pretty cold. 0 C is slightly chilly, but nothing to get worked up about. Zero degrees Celsius is the water freezing temperature, which is a very practical influencer (snow vs. rain, plants, crops, etc). Just like with kilometers, centimeters are useless. (ever gone on a kilometer run? Weak. Mile runs are where it's at.) Well an amount of subjectivism in comparing measuring units is inevitable, but reifying it goes a bit far. Andrei
Re: Line lengths discussed in eclipse forum and on reddit
Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: Surely you're jesting. Partially. For the most part, the metric system is better for science, but for day to day stuff? Poo. Lots of silly things to remember and the numbers don't line up well to regular stuff. Could be due to the fact that I'm more used to it, but it's more likely that my preferences are objectively superior to anyone who disagrees :) Zero degrees Celsius is the water freezing temperature, which is a very practical influencer (snow vs. rain, plants, crops, etc). Zero degrees is just as arbitrary for that value as thirty-two degrees. It's not easier to remember, nor does it simplify calculations, especially since other constants are so random looking. (what's 1g for force of gravity? The specific heat of water? Standard temperature and pressure? All ugly numbers...) But hey, whatever levitates your nautical vessel. Pro-metric arguments just tend to annoy me because they like to focus on irrelevant trivia, but the truth is they are both arbitrary and ugly. My preference is just less ugly :-P
Re: Line lengths discussed in eclipse forum and on reddit
On 09/12/2011 07:52 PM, Adam Ruppe wrote: Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: Surely you're jesting. Partially. For the most part, the metric system is better for science, but for day to day stuff? Poo. Lots of silly things to remember and the numbers don't line up well to regular stuff. Could be due to the fact that I'm more used to it, but it's more likely that my preferences are objectively superior to anyone who disagrees :) I bow to that! Zero degrees Celsius is the water freezing temperature, which is a very practical influencer (snow vs. rain, plants, crops, etc). Zero degrees is just as arbitrary for that value as thirty-two degrees. Well I agree to that, but allow me to note that it's only one post away you mentioned 0 as a memorable number. I mean you can't make an argument to then refute it. It's not easier to remember, nor does it simplify calculations, especially since other constants are so random looking. (what's 1g for force of gravity? The specific heat of water? Standard temperature and pressure? All ugly numbers...) But hey, whatever levitates your nautical vessel. Pro-metric arguments just tend to annoy me because they like to focus on irrelevant trivia, but the truth is they are both arbitrary and ugly. My preference is just less ugly :-P No prob. I'm just pointing out when objective is not apart from the subjective. Andrei
Re: Line lengths discussed in eclipse forum and on reddit
Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: Well I agree to that, but allow me to note that it's only one post away you mentioned 0 as a memorable number. I might have been unclear - it's not so much that it's memorable, but it has a different gut reaction. Below zero in my gut is akin to saying it's off the scale; it implies a big extreme in subjective perception rather than a specific physical quantity. If you say it's below zero on the Celsius scale, it's literally freezing cold, but it's not an uncommon or exceptional thing. It's below zero through almost the entire winter (and half the spring and fall, at least up here). But, if you say the same thing with the Fahrenheit scale, that is actually fairly special, even in winter - below zero Fahrenheit is pretty cold.
Re: Line lengths discussed in eclipse forum and on reddit
On 09/12/2011 08:29 PM, Adam Ruppe wrote: Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: Well I agree to that, but allow me to note that it's only one post away you mentioned 0 as a memorable number. I might have been unclear - it's not so much that it's memorable, but it has a different gut reaction. Below zero in my gut is akin to saying it's off the scale; it implies a big extreme in subjective perception rather than a specific physical quantity. If you say it's below zero on the Celsius scale, it's literally freezing cold, but it's not an uncommon or exceptional thing. It is in the spring, and it means that year's crop is in danger. That _is_ something one would note, and quite literally at the gut level :o). Anyhow, let's move on to date formats. I'm archiving some receipt right now, and I find the mm/dd/yy notation notation quite unpleasant... Andrei
Re: Line lengths discussed in eclipse forum and on reddit
Andrei Alexandrescu seewebsiteforem...@erdani.org wrote: Anyhow, let's move on to date formats. I'm archiving some receipt right now, and I find the mm/dd/yy notation notation quite unpleasant... Touché! :-) -- Jouko
Re: Line lengths discussed in eclipse forum and on reddit
On 09.09.2011 17:49, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/k7pwu/eclipse_default_line_length_of_80_chars_outdated/ Andrei Interesting to me was the quote from Linus, saying that indentation depth should never exceed 3. If you accept that, then 80 characters seems perfectly reasonable. Pretty clearly, the language design has a big influence on the maximum indent level of a typical program. I would say that unless the language has considered a low level of indenting to be desirable, 80 characters isn't enough. For example, in D, a member function of a class inside a template wrapped in a version statement already uses three levels of indentation. IMHO, the comparisons with newspaper columns are flawed, because newspapers don't use indentation in the same way that code does. It seems to be a trade-off: more indentation improves readability, but it also increases line length, which reduces readability...
Re: Line lengths discussed in eclipse forum and on reddit
Don nos...@nospam.com wrote in message news:j4j5o6$m4b$1...@digitalmars.com... On 09.09.2011 17:49, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/k7pwu/eclipse_default_line_length_of_80_chars_outdated/ Andrei Interesting to me was the quote from Linus, saying that indentation depth should never exceed 3. If you accept that, then 80 characters seems perfectly reasonable. With Linus being the head Linux guy, I assume he insists on using 8-char tabs. If so, it's no fucking wonder he's unable to handle any more than a minimal number of indents. On a related note, that Linux kernel coding style: someone quoted in there is one of the biggest loads of bullshit I've ever seen. Most of the whole debate strikes me as somewhat missing the point, anyway. Whether or not 80-cols is sufficient involves a lot of non-constant factors: What language you're using, how large your indents are, whether 80 is a hard limit or merely a guideline, etc. Same goes for the issue of maximum number of indents. Most of the debate completely misses this and mistakenly assumes there's such a thing as a universally appropriate line width or indent depth. For example, if you're doing asm for x86/6502/Z80, I bet you could probably get by fine on 40 columns (well, comments might push it over, though). But if you've got 8-char tabs and you're doing either Python or Java, then you're probably fucked without a widescreen and about a thousand columns. C/C++/D are somewhere in between and would probably depend on coding style. Pretty clearly, the language design has a big influence on the maximum indent level of a typical program. I would say that unless the language has considered a low level of indenting to be desirable, 80 characters isn't enough. For example, in D, a member function of a class inside a template wrapped in a version statement already uses three levels of indentation. IMHO, the comparisons with newspaper columns are flawed, because newspapers don't use indentation in the same way that code does. It seems to be a trade-off: more indentation improves readability, but it also increases line length, which reduces readability... Yea, those out-of-context comparisons bug me too.
Re: Line lengths discussed in eclipse forum and on reddit
On Sunday, September 11, 2011 22:29:42 Don wrote: On 09.09.2011 17:49, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/k7pwu/eclipse_default_line_ length_of_80_chars_outdated/ Andrei Interesting to me was the quote from Linus, saying that indentation depth should never exceed 3. If you accept that, then 80 characters seems perfectly reasonable. Pretty clearly, the language design has a big influence on the maximum indent level of a typical program. I would say that unless the language has considered a low level of indenting to be desirable, 80 characters isn't enough. For example, in D, a member function of a class inside a template wrapped in a version statement already uses three levels of indentation. Agreed. The combination of more descriptive function and class/struct names (even without the insanely large ones that Java sometimes has) and multiple levels of indentation pretty much fries 80 characters as a reasonable limit in many cases. Without many levels of indentation and shorter symbol names, 80 characters is plenty. But with a language like D, where it's easy to have multiple levels of indentation and where we're trying to have reasonably descriptive names, 80 characters is often too limiting. But the decision to stick to a soft limit of 80 and a hard limit of 120 in Phobos seems to be pretty solid overall. Once in a while 120 is annoyingly short but that's fairly rare, and a decent chunk of the time 80 characters is enough, so the code that needs to go over 80 characters can, and much of the rest manages to stick within 80. It seems to have made for a solid compromise. IMHO, the comparisons with newspaper columns are flawed, because newspapers don't use indentation in the same way that code does. It seems to be a trade-off: more indentation improves readability, but it also increases line length, which reduces readability... Agreed. Maybe if you were arguing 80 characters from the beginning of text on the line, but with indentation, that newspaper comparison falls apart completely. It's good to keep it in mind in that it's evidence that making lines too long causes problems, but the actual circumstances are different, so the exact rules that are used with newspapers don't really translate over. - Jonathan M Davis
Re: Line lengths discussed in eclipse forum and on reddit
Nick Sabalausky wrote: With Linus being the head Linux guy, I assume he insists on using 8-char tabs. If so, it's no fucking wonder he's unable to handle any more than a minimal number of indents. 8 char tabs are a gift from God. 4 char indents barely even register to my eyes. Of course, the real gift is the '\t' character, since it's semantic markup instead of the vile vile evil presentational markup that is the space. Anyone who uses spaces is a heretic and should be excommunicated. :-P but seriously, excommunication is too good for 'em, I say. BTW 80 character lines kick ass. I like to stack and tile my windows, so I prefer to not maximize any one window. Being able to actually work with it when in a small window is very nice. Of course, there's times when you just can't get around it, so you do what you have to do. Beautiful code is something that defies definition, but I know ugly when I see it. (that reminds me. Write a style guide someone said to me. OK, I wrote back don't vomit diarrhea. Good enough for me! Hire someone who knows what he's doing, and it ought to be good enough for anyone. Alas, they disagreed :-(. But even in the final draft, avoid idiotic repetition was far more important to me than trivialities like line length. Christ. )
Re: Line lengths discussed in eclipse forum and on reddit
Adam D. Ruppe destructiona...@gmail.com wrote in message news:j4jvls$2gp1$1...@digitalmars.com... Nick Sabalausky wrote: With Linus being the head Linux guy, I assume he insists on using 8-char tabs. If so, it's no fucking wonder he's unable to handle any more than a minimal number of indents. 8 char tabs are a gift from God. 4 char indents barely even register to my eyes. That's interesting, actually. To me, 4-char is perfectly obvious, 8-char is exaggerated to an almost comical degree, and 2-char is difficult to see. I wonder if it could be a font thing. What font/size do you use? I use Courier New 10pt on a 21 4x3 at 1152x864. It's a fairly square font: With these settings, I get the letter X sized exactly 1/8 inch by 1/8 inch. Due to line spacing in my editor, a 4x4 block of text is about 1/2 inch wide and 7/8 inches tall. I wonder if maybe your font is more vertical than mine? (Why the hell can't I find a ruler with metric around here? Fuck these stupid imperial units...Maybe I've lost my mind, but I could swear american rulers and tape measures always used to have imperial along one side and metric along the other. Can't even find them like that anymore. Or with any metric at all, for that matter. What, are we planning on adding imperial units now to our ever-growing list of crap to try to cram down the EU's throat?) Of course, the real gift is the '\t' character, since it's semantic markup instead of the vile vile evil presentational markup that is the space. Anyone who uses spaces is a heretic and should be excommunicated. Amen! ;) BTW 80 character lines kick ass. I like to stack and tile my windows, so I prefer to not maximize any one window. Being able to actually work with it when in a small window is very nice. I'm sort of the opposite: I rarely have anything non-maximized. I guess it works for me because I make heavy use of alt-tab and the taskbar. (I might do things differently if I were on a widescreen, though. Not that I'd ever want to use one.) I do still like to use 80-char as a general guideline, though. (that reminds me. Write a style guide someone said to me. OK, I wrote back don't vomit diarrhea. Good enough for me! Hire someone who knows what he's doing, and it ought to be good enough for anyone. Alas, they disagreed :-(. But even in the final draft, avoid idiotic repetition was far more important to me than trivialities like line length. Christ. ) Now there's a style guildeline I can really get behind!
Re: Line lengths discussed in eclipse forum and on reddit
Hi Andrei Have you ever considered doing what you are good at? Most people aren't good at anything. Just like you?! I mean, you write a book that says you suck at whatever ... ha! you have a politician mouth! Politics is for you! Hmm? I was just kidding. You are the best at. I guess I wasn't.. . so you're not the best at writing books or developing programming languages shush you, I know your answer: your kids. Well you what, why don't you take your sperm (your kids) and just get out of other peoples' face? Write me a PL to get you out of my face. Are you a good programmer (I did not let you in to the design category for reason) or what? And why don't you learn how to speak English? I don't have health care, or kids, and you're talkin' to me? Andrei, you talkin' to me?
Re: Line lengths discussed in eclipse forum and on reddit
On Sat, Sep 10, 2011 at 12:57 AM, mooseheart rose@5427.world wrote: Hi Andrei Have you ever considered doing what you are good at? Most people aren't good at anything. Just like you?! I mean, you write a book that says you suck at whatever ... ha! you have a politician mouth! Politics is for you! Hmm? I was just kidding. You are the best at. I guess I wasn't.. . so you're not the best at writing books or developing programming languages shush you, I know your answer: your kids. Well you what, why don't you take your sperm (your kids) and just get out of other peoples' face? Write me a PL to get you out of my face. Are you a good programmer (I did not let you in to the design category for reason) or what? And why don't you learn how to speak English? I don't have health care, or kids, and you're talkin' to me? Andrei, you talkin' to me? \|||/ (o o) ,ooO--(_)---. | Please| | don't feed the | | TROLLs ! | '--Ooo--' |__|__| || || ooO Ooo
Line lengths discussed in eclipse forum and on reddit
http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/k7pwu/eclipse_default_line_length_of_80_chars_outdated/ Andrei
Re: Line lengths discussed in eclipse forum and on reddit
Andrei Alexandrescu: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/k7pwu/eclipse_default_line_length_of_80_chars_outdated/ Andrei In D I'm trying to use a bit of functional style coding. With this style it's easy to write lines that go past 80 chars. Shortening variable and functions names too much produces less readable code. About 100-105 chars max is a good middle point for me, but most lines are shorter than that. Bye, bearophile
Re: Line lengths discussed in eclipse forum and on reddit
On Sep 9, 2011, at 8:49 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/k7pwu/eclipse_default_line_length_of_80_chars_outdated/ Does anyone actually like having an editor auto line-wrap code?
Re: Line lengths discussed in eclipse forum and on reddit
bearophile Wrote: Andrei Alexandrescu: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/k7pwu/eclipse_default_line_length_of_80_chars_outdated/ Andrei In D I'm trying to use a bit of functional style coding. With this style it's easy to write lines that go past 80 chars. Shortening variable and functions names too much produces less readable code. About 100-105 chars max is a good middle point for me, but most lines are shorter than that. Bye, bearophile I'm in a position where I find 80 characters to be limiting, but I'm also one that is annoyed by lines greater than 80 characters...
Re: Line lengths discussed in eclipse forum and on reddit
On 2011-09-09 20:32, Sean Kelly wrote: On Sep 9, 2011, at 8:49 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/k7pwu/eclipse_default_line_length_of_80_chars_outdated/ Does anyone actually like having an editor auto line-wrap code? There's also the code formatter that is dependent on this setting. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Re: Line lengths discussed in eclipse forum and on reddit
On Friday, September 09, 2011 11:32:00 Sean Kelly wrote: On Sep 9, 2011, at 8:49 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/k7pwu/eclipse_default_line_ length_of_80_chars_outdated/ Does anyone actually like having an editor auto line-wrap code? I sure don't. That's the worst of both worlds IMHO. - Jonathan M Davis
Re: Line lengths discussed in eclipse forum and on reddit
On 2011-09-09 17:49, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/k7pwu/eclipse_default_line_length_of_80_chars_outdated/ Andrei Talk about default settings in Eclipse. Eclipse doesn't use Unicode as the default encoding setting, on Mac OS X it uses MacRoman. That's just insane. MacRoman was the default encoding on Mac OS, Mac OS X uses UTF-8 as the default encoding. But apparently Java for Mac OS X still uses MacRoman. I mean come on, Mac OS was a long time ago. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_OS_Roman -- /Jacob Carlborg
