Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On Fri, 10 May 2013 05:08:09 -0700, Andrei Alexandrescu seewebsiteforem...@erdani.org wrote: Enjoy! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPr2UspS0fE Andrei Thanks. I noticed a subtle error in the response to the question on logical const (at 32:11). Specifically, overloading the function on immutable doesn't allow you to 'know' that the object you are passed is const or not, as prior to the invocation of the function (and thus overload determination) an immutable object could be bound to a const reference. As an alternative, IIRC, the RTTI of a class can be introspected inside the function to determine mutable/immutable at runtime.
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On 05/21/2013 04:58 PM, Robert Jacques wrote: the response to the question on logical const (at 32:11). I think 31:22 is more precise. Ali
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On Thursday, 16 May 2013 at 19:52:51 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote: On Thursday, May 16, 2013 11:13:27 Regan Heath wrote: So, who's responsibility is it to ensure the function/method call executes without errors caused by mutable shared data? I think that for the most part, the question of thread-safety and const that you've been discussing is moot. const by itself is thread-local by definition. Whether you use const or immutable really has no impact on thread safety - not from the perspective of the function being called anyway. The only way that you can end up having to worry about thread-safety in such functions is if the caller casts away shared on a variable and then passes it to the function. Very good point. shared has been paid minimal attention lately and I keep forgetting it actually can be used :)
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On Thu, 16 May 2013 20:52:35 +0100, Jonathan M Davis jmdavisp...@gmx.com wrote: On Thursday, May 16, 2013 11:13:27 Regan Heath wrote: So, who's responsibility is it to ensure the function/method call executes without errors caused by mutable shared data? I think that for the most part, the question of thread-safety and const that you've been discussing is moot. const by itself is thread-local by definition. Good point. Somehow I totally missed that. R -- Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On 5/12/13, Andrei Alexandrescu seewebsiteforem...@erdani.org wrote: Again, I don't understand what the problem is. I understand now this is made this way to encourage discussions. I apologize if I sounded smug, it was uncalled for.
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On Thu, 16 May 2013 01:40:51 +0200, Andrej Mitrovic andrej.mitrov...@gmail.com wrote: On 5/16/13, Nick Sabalausky seewebsitetocontac...@semitwist.com wrote: I wasn't around back then. :) You must be very young, quite a prodigy, really ;) I'm still learning the alphabet, I'm only at D now! Now try writing that using only the letters you supposedly know. :p -- Simen
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On 2013-05-16 05:48, deadalnix wrote: Completely off topic : your NG client is splitting the discussion, creating a new one on every answer you make. At don't see a split in this topic at all using Thunderbird. That's probably a first time. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On Wednesday, 15 May 2013 at 17:32:14 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote: You probably should actually quote part of the message so that it's easier to figure out exactly which message you're replying to it. It is hard to quote the video :) I was referring to the part starting somewhere here: http://youtu.be/mPr2UspS0fE?t=39m35s I know that almost all Phobos stuff is either isSomeString+template one or const(char)[] one, but I was curious how this works in context of Ali's presentation. Negative side of const(char)[] vs immutable(char)[] is that function on its own no longer guarantees thread safety, it relies on the behavior of the caller, which is not that good from the point of view of the type system.
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On 05/16/2013 02:55 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote: On 2013-05-16 05:48, deadalnix wrote: Completely off topic : your NG client is splitting the discussion, creating a new one on every answer you make. At don't see a split in this topic at all using Thunderbird. That's probably a first time. ditto for icedove signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On Wed, 15 May 2013 18:32:03 +0100, Jonathan M Davis jmdavisp...@gmx.com wrote: What's less clear is what to do when a function accepts strings but isn't really operating on them (e.g stuff in std.file or std.net.curl), as they may need immutable(char)[]. In that case, it depends on what's being done with the string. For better or worse though, at this point, I think that it's most common to just accept string for those cases. It's not something that always has a clearcut answer though. I agree with the first bit, but I think we can make a clear-cut decision on this last.. To me it comes down to a Q of responsibility. Should a function/method (like those in std.file) require that the argument will not change for the lifetime of the function/method call, or is it reasonable for the function/method to assume the caller will ensure that. Taking by immutable(char) will guarantee it will not change (ignoring blunt forced cast) whereas const(char) will not, but there is an implicit assumption that it wont change and the caller should guarantee that. So, who's responsibility is it to ensure the function/method call executes without errors caused by mutable shared data? I think it's the callers responsibility and think that const(char) is the better choice in cases like this, my reasoning as follows.. 1. Callers should already be protecting shared mutable state before using it, this is a common and well understood pattern which cannot be avoided even if we use immutable(char) arguments (caller still needs to ensure shared state is not mutated while they make the immutable copy to pass). 2. In most cases, in most code shared data is less common, especially for calls to functions/methods like those mentioned here. So, we chose the option which is nicer for the common case, and const(char) is it. 3. const(char) does not require duplication of arguments by caller or callee so is more efficient, one of D's primary goals and a good baseline to build upon. So, I think in cases where the function/method doesn't need to retain the argument for longer than the lifetime of the call it should accept const(char), otherwise as you mentioned earlier it's better to simply require the caller provide the immutable(char) you require. This decision has a nice side-effect of implicitly documenting the lifetime/usage of arguments, const(char) means call lifetime, immutable(char) means longer, possibly indefinitely (until termination). Thoughts? R -- Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On Thursday, 16 May 2013 at 10:13:28 UTC, Regan Heath wrote: ... I agree that this is a caller responsibility. What leaves me in doubts is how this responsibility is enforced though. With const nothing in type system prevents caller to violate that contract and mutate data during function call. Because, well, const does not guarantee that data is not mutated and thus it is a valid action. Contrary, immutable is absolutely strict requirement from a function that caller must take care of passed argument during the function call or fall into undefined behavior. Explicit usage of assumeUnique by caller is clear sign for a type system yes, I know what I am doing, I am responsible. And no accidents possible. However, another issue arises then (my first comment), one I guessed scope may help with.
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On Thu, 16 May 2013 11:25:48 +0100, Dicebot m.stras...@gmail.com wrote: On Thursday, 16 May 2013 at 10:13:28 UTC, Regan Heath wrote: ... I agree that this is a caller responsibility. What leaves me in doubts is how this responsibility is enforced though. With const nothing in type system prevents caller to violate that contract and mutate data during function call. Because, well, const does not guarantee that data is not mutated and thus it is a valid action. True, it's not enforced. But, that's because the responsibility lies with the caller, and I think this is a reasonable position to take in these cases (std.file methods which use but do not retain the argument post-call) Contrary, immutable is absolutely strict requirement from a function that caller must take care of passed argument during the function call or fall into undefined behavior. Explicit usage of assumeUnique by caller is clear sign for a type system yes, I know what I am doing, I am responsible. And no accidents possible. Sure, but it's more verbose, and therefore annoying for the general case (where the data is not shared). And.. The issue here is not common (because shared data is not common) /and/ where shared data is used it should already be protected (because that's the existing pattern). So that leaves us a very small number of cases which are broken and the solution to all of them is to protect the shared data(*) /not/ to call assumeUnique. The cases where assumeUnique could be used, so could const(char). Basically I think the assumeUnique idea is only useful where const(char) is useful and const(char) is far nicer. (*) you cannot even just call idup, because what if the data is in the process of mutating when you do? You have to protect the shared data with a mutex or similar. Regan -- Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On Thu, 16 May 2013 12:06:18 +0100, Dicebot m.stras...@gmail.com wrote: On Thursday, 16 May 2013 at 10:41:51 UTC, Regan Heath wrote: True, it's not enforced. But, that's because the responsibility lies with the caller, and I think this is a reasonable position to take in these cases (std.file methods which use but do not retain the argument post-call) You see, if it is not enforced, than no one has any real responsibility. Multi-threading based on convention has been used quite a lot in C/C++ according to my experience it sucks. D developers has done a lot of work in pursuing type system that is aware of multi-threading and can make certain enforcements / provide guarantees. It makes no sense to stop in the midway. You're missing my main point. The number of actually broken cases are small and the solution is always always always to protect the shared data. assumeUnique cannot help in these cases, so the caller ends up calling idup. The caller cannot safely call idup unless the shared data is protected. So, all roads lead to - protect the shared data. Given that, const(char) is 100% perfectly safe. One of D slogans I remember was Safe by default, efficient when needed. This is exactly one of such cases. Any type contract should be stated explicitly. Everywhere. As shown above, just using immutable(char) does not ensure it is safe. The caller could use assumeUnique mistakenly, or call idup without protecting the shared state, both are subtle bugs and the only solution is - protect the shared data. Any impression of complete safety from immutable(char) is therefore false. R -- Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On Thursday, May 16, 2013 11:13:27 Regan Heath wrote: So, I think in cases where the function/method doesn't need to retain the argument for longer than the lifetime of the call it should accept const(char), otherwise as you mentioned earlier it's better to simply require the caller provide the immutable(char) you require. Well, as I said, the decision depends on what you're doing with the string. If you're just operating on it and not storing it or duping it, then const(char)[] or inout(char)[] makes the most sense, whereas if you're storing it or duping it, odds are that immutable(char)[] makes the most sense. - Jonathan M Davis
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On Thursday, May 16, 2013 11:13:27 Regan Heath wrote: So, who's responsibility is it to ensure the function/method call executes without errors caused by mutable shared data? I think that for the most part, the question of thread-safety and const that you've been discussing is moot. const by itself is thread-local by definition. Whether you use const or immutable really has no impact on thread safety - not from the perspective of the function being called anyway. The only way that you can end up having to worry about thread-safety in such functions is if the caller casts away shared on a variable and then passes it to the function. And by definition, at that point it's the responsibility of the one doing the cast to make sure that they don't break the type system (since they've circumvented the type system by casting away shared). immutable avoids even that issue, because it's implicitly shared but can be treated by code as being thread- local (since it won't change), but the function accepting the string doesn't care. Worrying about that is completely up to the code that cast away shared. Without shared, the one area where the function risks the data changing when it was passed as const is when that function has another, mutable handle to the same data, and the data is mutated via that handle. If the function is never mutated the same type as the const parameter (either directly or indirectly), then there's no chance that the const parameter will change. So, while using immutable reduces the odds of threading issues, I think that it's quite clear that the function itself doesn't have to worry about that. And the type system won't even _let_ it worry about it, because the type system assumes that const without shared is thread-local, and without passing the appropriate mutex to the function, the function wouldn't be able to protect itself from mutation from another thread anyway (in the case where the const parameter was shared underneath the hood with shared cast away). - Jonathan M Davis
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On Friday, 10 May 2013 at 12:08:10 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: ... After some more thinking on topic I get the feeling that this is yet another case when having defined and working scope for function parameters would have been extremely useful. Lets imagine some string processing function I want to use: int foo(string); That is like Phobos string processing functions are defined, they take immutable(char)[], not const(char)[]. That is good in a sense that guarantees that function thread safety, but becomes an issue when you want to use that function with a mutable char buffer (some typical network packet manipulation, for example). Presentation recommends to use assumeUnique in such cases as you can be sure that mutable entity only exists in calling scope and is practically immutable for the duration of function call. However, this is potentially dangerous, because foo may save reference of some kind to its immutable argument in global state and then your program is in undefined behavior. It is OK with Phobos string processing functions because common sense and open sources guarantee that no such stuff happens, but in general this sounds like a type system hole. scope may have solved it.
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On Wednesday, May 15, 2013 09:42:06 Dicebot wrote: On Friday, 10 May 2013 at 12:08:10 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: ... You probably should actually quote part of the message so that it's easier to figure out exactly which message you're replying to it. Presentation recommends to use assumeUnique in such cases as you can be sure that mutable entity only exists in calling scope and is practically immutable for the duration of function call. However, this is potentially dangerous, because foo may save reference of some kind to its immutable argument in global state and then your program is in undefined behavior. It is OK with Phobos string processing functions because common sense and open sources guarantee that no such stuff happens, but in general this sounds like a type system hole. assumeUnique really should only be used when you construct something that you can't construct as immutable but want as immutable. Using it to simply pass to a function is a _bad_ idea in the general case. You can get away with it if you know exactly what the function does and code accordingly, but all it takes is the code being changed, and you could get some nasty bugs (especially if you were casting away immutable on the return value with the assemption that it was a slice of the original, and that assumption didn't hold true in the long term). But really, what it comes down to is that in general, if functions need immutable(char)[] or are going to be copying the string to immutable, they should take string explicitly, but otherwise, they should probably be accepting const or inout or be templated. Most string functions in Phobos are templated. What's less clear is what to do when a function accepts strings but isn't really operating on them (e.g stuff in std.file or std.net.curl), as they may need immutable(char)[]. In that case, it depends on what's being done with the string. For better or worse though, at this point, I think that it's most common to just accept string for those cases. It's not something that always has a clearcut answer though. - Jonathan M Davis
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On 5/14/13, Steven Schveighoffer schvei...@yahoo.com wrote: BTW, for comparison: Dconf 2007: 8/25-8/27 2007 Slides posted: 7/10/2008 I wasn't around back then. :) On 5/14/13, Steven Schveighoffer schvei...@yahoo.com wrote: Reminds me of Lewis CK's Everything is amazing, and nobody is happy Well there's always going to be a difference in expectations between the old and new generation. Some things become great, others start to suck. For example I've got this microwave at home which is more than 20 years old, and it still works as great as day 1. Whereas I once bought a (not so cheap) toaster and it broke within a month. Not everything is amazing these days at all. And once you add artificial restrictions to something, people get mad. On 5/14/13, Steven Schveighoffer schvei...@yahoo.com wrote: But there is something about having it *available* that compels you to watch it, and eventually ends up making you resent the availability YMMV (or MMMV). :) Anyway, yeah this was made to encourage discussions on every presentation, I understand this now.
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
Andrei Alexandrescu, el 14 de May a las 20:27 me escribiste: On 5/14/13 7:29 PM, Leandro Lucarella wrote: Walter Bright, el 12 de May a las 11:42 me escribiste: On 5/12/2013 3:49 AM, John Colvin wrote: As frustrating as it is for non-attending enthusiasts like myself, I'd say stick with the current schedule. The marketing checks out. So far, it's been a big success on Reddit doing it this way. I've also seen a number of comments on Reddit and Hacker News to the effect of people showing a renewed interest in D. There's also the issue Andrei brought up about the speakers having worked hard on their presentations, and they each deserve their day in the sun. Spacing them out does that. As a speaker, as I said before, what would make me happy is to make my talk available as soon as possible. So, at least in my personal case, the day in the sun argument doesn't apply :) My aim here is to do the best for the D community. Yes, I know, and I appreciate it. I'm just saying that particular argument doesn't work for every speaker :) -- Leandro Lucarella (AKA luca) http://llucax.com.ar/ -- GPG Key: 5F5A8D05 (F8CD F9A7 BF00 5431 4145 104C 949E BFB6 5F5A 8D05) -- Los próximos veinte años se vienen a full, van a ser una locura tecnologica! -- Torto (abril de 2012)
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
Steven Schveighoffer, el 14 de May a las 20:35 me escribiste: On Tue, 14 May 2013 20:26:36 -0400, Andrei Alexandrescu seewebsiteforem...@erdani.org wrote: On 5/14/13 7:24 PM, Leandro Lucarella wrote: Still, 10 months seems crazy. As somebody mentioned before, 1 month seems much more reasonable, 2 at most. With three a week we'll be done in five more weeks. Please explain why you find that unreasonable. I think either misunderstanding or typo here. The original release schedule was to happen over 10 WEEKS not 10 months (2 per week, for 20 videos, that's 10 weeks or roughly 2.5 months). OK, yeah, I thought I read 10 months somewhere and didn't do the math myself. 2.5 months is still high for my taste (and I insist, only if is just a marketing issue and not the lack of power to edit the talks), but more reasonable. -- Leandro Lucarella (AKA luca) http://llucax.com.ar/ -- GPG Key: 5F5A8D05 (F8CD F9A7 BF00 5431 4145 104C 949E BFB6 5F5A 8D05) -- The number of wars fought between countries That both have at least one McDonalds is zero
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
Andrei Alexandrescu, el 14 de May a las 20:26 me escribiste: On 5/14/13 7:24 PM, Leandro Lucarella wrote: Andrei Alexandrescu, el 11 de May a las 20:22 me escribiste: On 5/11/13 7:39 PM, Nick Sabalausky wrote: Furthermore, my whole point was nothing more than to merely suggest that *maybe* the delay should simply be somewhat less, *not* a demand or expectation, and *not* even a suggestion that they should all be released as soon as is technically feasable. Sure - let's take a quick poll on what would be the best release schedule. As far as I'm concerned, I'd prefer if all videos are released as soon as possible. AFAIK no other conference that publishes videos introduces an artificial delay when releasing videos and slides, just for PR reasons. With all due respect I'd dare ask how versed you are in organizing conferences, PR campaigns, or anything related. Releasing video recordings with a delay has been the policy of all recent conferences I've participated or organized. I organized a few a while back in Argentina but as I mentioned before privately in the conference, there were more like open events to spread the word, not closed, more developer-oriented conferences. But anyway, I was talking purely from the user POV, I don't claim to have any knowledge about PR or marketing at all (even more, I tend to hate marketing because it based on introducing artificial artifacts or manipulating the reality in some way, but that's a different topic). One example conference that I certainly know that releases all the material at once is the LLVM conference, for example: http://isocpp.org/blog/2013/05/clang-llvm-conference-videos-and-slides-are-now-available I know other linux conferences do that but I can't remember particular examples right now. I even think is anti-PR to do such a thing (I can see how making one announcement each couple of days in reddit/etc. can help keep D in the spot but I don't see any reason why not to upload the actual stuff and link it in the conference website). There is evidence indicating we are doing the right thing. On what basis do you believe it's negative for PR? My personal experience, just that. For me it sucks not being able to see the talks I couldn't attend. I just assume there is more people like me out there, I guess is not a very wild guess (in fact there has been quite a few other people complaining about this in the NG, even when some supported spreading the videos releases thinking it was better for D). People that is actively looking for the stuff should be able to find it. People that doesn't know about the conference, should get a notification about a new video once in a while. People who are actively looking for the stuff will sure find it forever - just with a little delay at start, which I have explained why I find entirely reasonable. Well, we disagree, I think people actively looking for the stuff should be able to access the stuff (when is technically possible to do so). Again, I agree that spreading the announcements in reddit over time is a good thing. Still, 10 months seems crazy. As somebody mentioned before, 1 month seems much more reasonable, 2 at most. With three a week we'll be done in five more weeks. Please explain why you find that unreasonable. If you read the text you are quoting, I'm saying between 1 and 2 months seems reasonable (so I can't explain why is it unreasonable :) I can live with that, even when I still think it will be way better to just upload everything and only make the announcements three times a week. -- Leandro Lucarella (AKA luca) http://llucax.com.ar/ -- GPG Key: 5F5A8D05 (F8CD F9A7 BF00 5431 4145 104C 949E BFB6 5F5A 8D05) -- Hoy traje las fotos de mi colon, las quieren ver? -- Rata
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On Wed, 15 May 2013 20:18:26 +0200 Andrej Mitrovic andrej.mitrov...@gmail.com wrote: On 5/14/13, Steven Schveighoffer schvei...@yahoo.com wrote: BTW, for comparison: Dconf 2007: 8/25-8/27 2007 Slides posted: 7/10/2008 I wasn't around back then. :) You must be very young, quite a prodigy, really ;) On 5/14/13, Steven Schveighoffer schvei...@yahoo.com wrote: Reminds me of Lewis CK's Everything is amazing, and nobody is happy Well there's always going to be a difference in expectations between the old and new generation. Some things become great, others start to suck. For example I've got this microwave at home which is more than 20 years old, and it still works as great as day 1. Whereas I once bought a (not so cheap) toaster and it broke within a month. Not everything is amazing these days at all. Same here. I looked everywhere trying to find a wide-slot toaster that *wasn't* 50's retro, managed to find *one* and it started having problems within just a few months. About 3 years later now, and I still put up with it anyway :) (It's not dangerously bad, the darkness setting just doesn't work unless it's all the way at light.) And once you add artificial restrictions to something, people get mad. And rightfully so! Which sometimes makes me think I'd be better off knowing nothing about computers. Then, just like all the happy people I see, I'd never notice the artificiality of the restrictions ;)
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On 5/16/13, Nick Sabalausky seewebsitetocontac...@semitwist.com wrote: I wasn't around back then. :) You must be very young, quite a prodigy, really ;) I'm still learning the alphabet, I'm only at D now!
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On Wednesday, 15 May 2013 at 20:08:23 UTC, Leandro Lucarella wrote: OK, yeah, I thought I read 10 months somewhere and didn't do the math myself. 2.5 months is still high for my taste (and I insist, only if is just a marketing issue and not the lack of power to edit the talks), but more reasonable. Completely off topic : your NG client is splitting the discussion, creating a new one on every answer you make.
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On Monday, 13 May 2013 at 17:18:34 UTC, Walter Bright wrote: On 5/13/2013 9:04 AM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote: Also keep in mind, that you can simply ignore the postings for a few weeks, and then all will be available at once. This is like waiting for the season to come out on dvd or netflix :) Yeah, I'll often record a whole season on the dvr, then watch it in a marathon session! I do the same, but I guess in case of D, we are not the one to convince as we already are.
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
Andrei Alexandrescu, el 11 de May a las 20:22 me escribiste: On 5/11/13 7:39 PM, Nick Sabalausky wrote: Furthermore, my whole point was nothing more than to merely suggest that *maybe* the delay should simply be somewhat less, *not* a demand or expectation, and *not* even a suggestion that they should all be released as soon as is technically feasable. Sure - let's take a quick poll on what would be the best release schedule. As far as I'm concerned, I'd prefer if all videos are released as soon as possible. AFAIK no other conference that publishes videos introduces an artificial delay when releasing videos and slides, just for PR reasons. I even think is anti-PR to do such a thing (I can see how making one announcement each couple of days in reddit/etc. can help keep D in the spot but I don't see any reason why not to upload the actual stuff and link it in the conference website). People that is actively looking for the stuff should be able to find it. People that doesn't know about the conference, should get a notification about a new video once in a while. Still, 10 months seems crazy. As somebody mentioned before, 1 month seems much more reasonable, 2 at most. -- Leandro Lucarella (AKA luca) http://llucax.com.ar/
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
Walter Bright, el 12 de May a las 11:42 me escribiste: On 5/12/2013 3:49 AM, John Colvin wrote: As frustrating as it is for non-attending enthusiasts like myself, I'd say stick with the current schedule. The marketing checks out. So far, it's been a big success on Reddit doing it this way. I've also seen a number of comments on Reddit and Hacker News to the effect of people showing a renewed interest in D. There's also the issue Andrei brought up about the speakers having worked hard on their presentations, and they each deserve their day in the sun. Spacing them out does that. As a speaker, as I said before, what would make me happy is to make my talk available as soon as possible. So, at least in my personal case, the day in the sun argument doesn't apply :) -- Leandro Lucarella (AKA luca) http://llucax.com.ar/
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On 5/14/13 7:24 PM, Leandro Lucarella wrote: Andrei Alexandrescu, el 11 de May a las 20:22 me escribiste: On 5/11/13 7:39 PM, Nick Sabalausky wrote: Furthermore, my whole point was nothing more than to merely suggest that *maybe* the delay should simply be somewhat less, *not* a demand or expectation, and *not* even a suggestion that they should all be released as soon as is technically feasable. Sure - let's take a quick poll on what would be the best release schedule. As far as I'm concerned, I'd prefer if all videos are released as soon as possible. AFAIK no other conference that publishes videos introduces an artificial delay when releasing videos and slides, just for PR reasons. With all due respect I'd dare ask how versed you are in organizing conferences, PR campaigns, or anything related. Releasing video recordings with a delay has been the policy of all recent conferences I've participated or organized. I even think is anti-PR to do such a thing (I can see how making one announcement each couple of days in reddit/etc. can help keep D in the spot but I don't see any reason why not to upload the actual stuff and link it in the conference website). There is evidence indicating we are doing the right thing. On what basis do you believe it's negative for PR? People that is actively looking for the stuff should be able to find it. People that doesn't know about the conference, should get a notification about a new video once in a while. People who are actively looking for the stuff will sure find it forever - just with a little delay at start, which I have explained why I find entirely reasonable. Still, 10 months seems crazy. As somebody mentioned before, 1 month seems much more reasonable, 2 at most. With three a week we'll be done in five more weeks. Please explain why you find that unreasonable. Andrei
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On Tue, 14 May 2013 20:26:36 -0400, Andrei Alexandrescu seewebsiteforem...@erdani.org wrote: On 5/14/13 7:24 PM, Leandro Lucarella wrote: Still, 10 months seems crazy. As somebody mentioned before, 1 month seems much more reasonable, 2 at most. With three a week we'll be done in five more weeks. Please explain why you find that unreasonable. I think either misunderstanding or typo here. The original release schedule was to happen over 10 WEEKS not 10 months (2 per week, for 20 videos, that's 10 weeks or roughly 2.5 months). -Steve
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On Tue, 14 May 2013 20:26:36 -0400 Andrei Alexandrescu seewebsiteforem...@erdani.org wrote: Still, 10 months seems crazy. As somebody mentioned before, 1 month seems much more reasonable, 2 at most. With three a week we'll be done in five more weeks. Please explain why you find that unreasonable. 5 weeks 2 months He never said that was unreasonable, in fact just the opposite.
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On 05/12/2013 04:19 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote: On 2013-05-11 22:50, Jonathan M Davis wrote: He's serious. If you post them all at once, then each video gets minimal impact. A lot of people will look at one, maybe two, and then not bother with the rest, because all of them showed up at once, whereas if they're posted over a longer period of time, then each video will have larger a impact, because it'll be showing up by itself, and it increases the chances of more casual people viewing it. Yes. This sucks for those who didn't get the chance to go to the conference and who will definitely view all of them regardless of how quickly they're released, but it produces better PR for the language this way. We'll keep getting new posts on reddit or wherever over a period of several weeks as opposed to it being more of a blip on people's radar and then gone. Can't we upload all of them somewhere more private. The problem with that is that some asshat will share them publicly to get karma. I understand why and I acknowledge it is probably for the best, but I wanna marathon dangit!
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On 05/10/2013 08:00 PM, Flamaros wrote: On Friday, 10 May 2013 at 18:45:15 UTC, Nick Sabalausky wrote: On Fri, 10 May 2013 08:08:09 -0400 Andrei Alexandrescu seewebsiteforem...@erdani.org wrote: Enjoy! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPr2UspS0fE Torrents up for both the low-quality FLV (from YouTube) and the full-quality MP4 (from archive.org): http://semitwist.com/download/misc/dconf2013/ I don't know how much interest there is in torrents of these now that archive.org is (awesomely) hosting direct downloads of the original full quality. But since I'm planning on grabbing all of them anyway, I may as well continue tossing the torrents together while I'm at it. I prefers the torrent, thx. I do as well, I shall seed.
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On 05/12/2013 01:44 PM, Walter Bright wrote: On 5/12/2013 7:16 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: I was also thinking mon/wed/fri would be a great schedule! That does fit in with the observed phenomenon that a posting on reddit has a shelf life of about 2 days, and the statistics that posting on reddit on a weekend dooms it. +1 signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On Sun, 12 May 2013 01:22:57 +0100, Andrei Alexandrescu seewebsiteforem...@erdani.org wrote: On 5/11/13 7:39 PM, Nick Sabalausky wrote: Furthermore, my whole point was nothing more than to merely suggest that *maybe* the delay should simply be somewhat less, *not* a demand or expectation, and *not* even a suggestion that they should all be released as soon as is technically feasable. Sure - let's take a quick poll on what would be the best release schedule. I agree that 2 a week is reasonable given the motivations and reasoning already discussed. R -- Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On Sat, 11 May 2013 20:22:57 -0400, Andrei Alexandrescu seewebsiteforem...@erdani.org wrote: On 5/11/13 7:39 PM, Nick Sabalausky wrote: Furthermore, my whole point was nothing more than to merely suggest that *maybe* the delay should simply be somewhat less, *not* a demand or expectation, and *not* even a suggestion that they should all be released as soon as is technically feasable. Sure - let's take a quick poll on what would be the best release schedule. I am happy with any reasonable schedule, including the current. 3 a week is max. BTW, this whole I need it now mentality reminds me of my first days of having a TiVo. My wife and I liked law and order (the show, but also the real thing too), and TiVo has a way to record all episodes (no repeats) of a specific show name, on any channel. We set it up. We were getting about 4-5 hours PER DAY of Law and Order to watch. In about 4 days, I remember coming home and seeing 4 more hours and saying, aw crap, we have four hours of TV to watch When it became a chore, we deleted the season pass. Now, this is different, because there are only 20 episodes in existence, and there will be no more until next year. But the effect is similar. I will watch one or two, and none of the others (I've seen them all live, mind you), but others will choose other talks to watch. Already there have been some interesting discussions on the available talks that would be lost in the noise if all were immediately available. It's nice to have everyone stuck at the same episode so you can discuss it at the same time! Also keep in mind, that you can simply ignore the postings for a few weeks, and then all will be available at once. This is like waiting for the season to come out on dvd or netflix :) -Steve
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On 5/13/2013 9:04 AM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote: Also keep in mind, that you can simply ignore the postings for a few weeks, and then all will be available at once. This is like waiting for the season to come out on dvd or netflix :) Yeah, I'll often record a whole season on the dvr, then watch it in a marathon session!
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On 2013-05-13 18:04, Steven Schveighoffer wrote: I am happy with any reasonable schedule, including the current. 3 a week is max. BTW, this whole I need it now mentality reminds me of my first days of having a TiVo. My wife and I liked law and order (the show, but also the real thing too), and TiVo has a way to record all episodes (no repeats) of a specific show name, on any channel. We set it up. We were getting about 4-5 hours PER DAY of Law and Order to watch. In about 4 days, I remember coming home and seeing 4 more hours and saying, aw crap, we have four hours of TV to watch When it became a chore, we deleted the season pass. That's a bit much. I used to watch three episodes, around 40 minutes each, at once. Now I only have time for one episode. But I still get to see one per day. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On Mon, 13 May 2013 14:35:14 -0400, Jacob Carlborg d...@me.com wrote: On 2013-05-13 18:04, Steven Schveighoffer wrote: I am happy with any reasonable schedule, including the current. 3 a week is max. BTW, this whole I need it now mentality reminds me of my first days of having a TiVo. My wife and I liked law and order (the show, but also the real thing too), and TiVo has a way to record all episodes (no repeats) of a specific show name, on any channel. We set it up. We were getting about 4-5 hours PER DAY of Law and Order to watch. In about 4 days, I remember coming home and seeing 4 more hours and saying, aw crap, we have four hours of TV to watch When it became a chore, we deleted the season pass. That's a bit much. I used to watch three episodes, around 40 minutes each, at once. Now I only have time for one episode. But I still get to see one per day. My point was, I would not like to see d conference videos becoming a chore to watch so you can keep up with the latest discussion. -Steve
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On Sunday, 12 May 2013 at 13:49:05 UTC, Adam D. Ruppe wrote: On Sunday, 12 May 2013 at 00:22:58 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: Sure - let's take a quick poll on what would be the best release schedule. I kinda like the idea of one a day on monday/wednesday/friday. It'd be paced kinda like a college class then, easy to remember timing, and should keep a pretty steady discussion going. +1
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On 2013-05-13 20:41, Steven Schveighoffer wrote: My point was, I would not like to see d conference videos becoming a chore to watch so you can keep up with the latest discussion. Oh, you mean the discussion. I was just thinking, if you don't want to watch more, then don't. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On 5/13/13, Steven Schveighoffer schvei...@yahoo.com wrote: In about 4 days, I remember coming home and seeing 4 more hours and saying, aw crap, we have four hours of TV to watch When it became a chore, we deleted the season pass. Isn't this an issue with Tivo only having limited space to keep the episodes, essentially forcing you to watch something or delete it? This is not an issue with your average PC hard drive. Also, you may not want to watch every episode. For example if I think an episode is bad I just won't watch it, I'll watch the next episode. This probably won't work with series that have a continuous storyline, but with conference videos every episode is unique, and I'm really not interested in all of them. Having a delay of several days between releases does nothing to make me more interested in a talk. As for watching several hours per day, that's ok with me (e.g. if it's a really good series). If I have a free day to spare I'll watch any number of episodes if it's a really good show (Breaking Bad, Dexter, La Femme Nikita, just to name a few, were all great to watch eagerly). But this is clearly a YMMV territory, everyone has different needs. Anyway I wish this PR stunt was announce *beforehand*.
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On Monday, May 13, 2013 23:43:01 Andrej Mitrovic wrote: Anyway I wish this PR stunt was announce *beforehand*. Well, AFAIK, it was never stated that the videos would be posted quickly. For a while, it wasn't even clear whether the conference would even be recorded. So, we're very lucky to have what we have, and Andrei isn't doing anything different from what he said he was going to do. He just isn't doing what some people expected. - Jonathan M Davis
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On Mon, 13 May 2013 17:43:01 -0400, Andrej Mitrovic andrej.mitrov...@gmail.com wrote: On 5/13/13, Steven Schveighoffer schvei...@yahoo.com wrote: In about 4 days, I remember coming home and seeing 4 more hours and saying, aw crap, we have four hours of TV to watch When it became a chore, we deleted the season pass. Isn't this an issue with Tivo only having limited space to keep the episodes, essentially forcing you to watch something or delete it? This is not an issue with your average PC hard drive. In our case, it was more of the fact that we didn't have time to watch all Law and Order episodes in existence, as there was about 4 per day on TNT + the newest one on NBC or whatever channel that was :) At the time, I had I think 80 hours available (at low quality), so running out of space was not a problem. But there is something about having it *available* that compels you to watch it, and eventually ends up making you resent the availability, however irrational that is (I mean, TiVo took the time to record all these, the least we can do is watch them. He's so cute too, why do they make him so CUTE with that fucking smile and sliding through the virtual world of video bits! Curse you TiVo!) But it's not a direct comparison, as I noted. The issue I think we want to avoid is to have everyone HAVING to watch all the talks in order to participate in the discussion. All us conference goers could be having related insiders discussions all over the newsgroups, but I think we have all pretty much refrained from doing that. Even if that's not the main point of the delay, it's good to consider that NG threads have a short life, and you want to have as many involved as possible. Also, you may not want to watch every episode. For example if I think an episode is bad I just won't watch it, I'll watch the next episode. This probably won't work with series that have a continuous storyline, but with conference videos every episode is unique, and I'm really not interested in all of them. Having a delay of several days between releases does nothing to make me more interested in a talk. Believe me, I was definitely interested only in a few, and I was just a bit unenthusiastic on watching all of them to get to those. I was very much proven wrong. All the talks were good. I think this is important to note. As for watching several hours per day, that's ok with me (e.g. if it's a really good series). If I have a free day to spare I'll watch any number of episodes if it's a really good show (Breaking Bad, Dexter, La Femme Nikita, just to name a few, were all great to watch eagerly). It shouldn't be a requirement, though. But this is clearly a YMMV territory, everyone has different needs. Anyway I wish this PR stunt was announce *beforehand*. I think part of it is logistics and preparation. You simply can't upload them all at once and have them all available at once. There must be SOME delay between postings that lasts longer than watching each video. The extension is simply to spread out the discussion/impact. I think it is a wise PR move. -Steve
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On Friday, 10 May 2013 at 12:08:10 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: Enjoy! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPr2UspS0fE Andrei Very good presentation. Thank you Ali.
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On Mon, 13 May 2013 17:43:01 -0400, Andrej Mitrovic andrej.mitrov...@gmail.com wrote: Anyway I wish this PR stunt was announce *beforehand*. BTW, for comparison: Dconf 2007: 8/25-8/27 2007 Slides posted: 7/10/2008 http://forum.dlang.org/post/g54ptt$2so2$1...@digitalmars.com Reminds me of Lewis CK's Everything is amazing, and nobody is happy http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x8m5d0_everything-is-amazing-and-nobody-i_fun#.UZFpsBM199c -Steve
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On Mon, 13 May 2013 17:43:01 -0400, Andrej Mitrovic andrej.mitrov...@gmail.com wrote: Anyway I wish this PR stunt was announce *beforehand*. BTW, for comparison: Dconf 2007: 8/25-8/27 2007 Videos posted: 7/10/2008 http://forum.dlang.org/post/g54ptt$2so2$1...@digitalmars.com Reminds me of Lewis CK's Everything is amazing, and nobody is happy http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x8m5d0_everything-is-amazing-and-nobody-i_fun#.UZFpsBM199c -Steve
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On 05/13/2013 03:41 PM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote: Dconf 2007: 8/25-8/27 2007 Videos posted: 7/10/2008 http://forum.dlang.org/post/g54ptt$2so2$1...@digitalmars.com I found the videos here: http://www.youtube.com/user/braddr1 Ali
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On Friday, 10 May 2013 at 12:08:10 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: Enjoy! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPr2UspS0fE Andrei I just finished watching. Very, very good presentation. A lot of interesting stuff in here. Also those here comes the correct answer were really funny, made me laugh in real ;) Thank you very much Ali for doing this presentation. Those 50 minutes were totally worth it. Best regards
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
I didn't get to go, simply because I could not make the time for it. (Isn't it always the way...) There are a few videos that I'm specifically waiting for, but perhaps more importantly I look forward to sharing them with specific people (the kind of people who might be able to convince stable companies to at least consider D for some of their work). I also know that if I sent them a pile of links to hour-long videos, they probably aren't going to watch them all, if in fact any. (Busy people are like that sometimes.) I'm willing to bet there are plenty of other people on here doing the same -- and for us, at least, staggered releases are grand. They create a suspense of sorts. (Don't get me wrong, though... I'd totally marathon my way through the whole conf if they were all up tomorrow...) That said, if a lot of current users are just too hungry to wait (and I can understand that!) then maybe speed it up /just slightly/. Go 3 a week maybe? (Complete in 6.5 weeks.) Or make it a video every three days? (Complete in 8.5 weeks.) I don't really know what pace is best. I am sure that all-at-once is not best -- for all reasons previously cited.
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On Sunday, 12 May 2013 at 00:22:58 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: Sure - let's take a quick poll on what would be the best release schedule. Andrei I vote one video per day.
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On 2013-05-12, 02:22, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: On 5/11/13 7:39 PM, Nick Sabalausky wrote: Furthermore, my whole point was nothing more than to merely suggest that *maybe* the delay should simply be somewhat less, *not* a demand or expectation, and *not* even a suggestion that they should all be released as soon as is technically feasable. Sure - let's take a quick poll on what would be the best release schedule. I'm happy with the current schedule. Please, no more than one video every second day. -- Simen
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On Sunday, 12 May 2013 at 08:55:03 UTC, Simen Kjaeraas wrote: On 2013-05-12, 02:22, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: On 5/11/13 7:39 PM, Nick Sabalausky wrote: Furthermore, my whole point was nothing more than to merely suggest that *maybe* the delay should simply be somewhat less, *not* a demand or expectation, and *not* even a suggestion that they should all be released as soon as is technically feasable. Sure - let's take a quick poll on what would be the best release schedule. I'm happy with the current schedule. Please, no more than one video every second day. Agreed. Once you have videos coming in quickly, the amount of attention each talk gets diminishes heavily, including the amount of external attention D itself gets.
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On Sunday, 12 May 2013 at 00:22:58 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: On 5/11/13 7:39 PM, Nick Sabalausky wrote: Furthermore, my whole point was nothing more than to merely suggest that *maybe* the delay should simply be somewhat less, *not* a demand or expectation, and *not* even a suggestion that they should all be released as soon as is technically feasable. Sure - let's take a quick poll on what would be the best release schedule. Andrei I guess is very culture-specific. Quite lot of programmers I know personally would have considered such marketing just for the sake of marketing an extremely hostile action and I personally have felt very frustrated when read that announcement. What I'd _personally_ like to see is all videos released at once but then once in a 2 days they get details nice description / summary prepared and announced via reddit-whatever only than. Can volunteer to do that textification if needed.
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On 2013-05-11 22:50, Jonathan M Davis wrote: He's serious. If you post them all at once, then each video gets minimal impact. A lot of people will look at one, maybe two, and then not bother with the rest, because all of them showed up at once, whereas if they're posted over a longer period of time, then each video will have larger a impact, because it'll be showing up by itself, and it increases the chances of more casual people viewing it. Yes. This sucks for those who didn't get the chance to go to the conference and who will definitely view all of them regardless of how quickly they're released, but it produces better PR for the language this way. We'll keep getting new posts on reddit or wherever over a period of several weeks as opposed to it being more of a blip on people's radar and then gone. Can't we upload all of them somewhere more private. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On Sunday, 12 May 2013 at 00:22:58 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: On 5/11/13 7:39 PM, Nick Sabalausky wrote: Furthermore, my whole point was nothing more than to merely suggest that *maybe* the delay should simply be somewhat less, *not* a demand or expectation, and *not* even a suggestion that they should all be released as soon as is technically feasable. Sure - let's take a quick poll on what would be the best release schedule. 2 a week + early access to kickstarter contributors seems like the most apropriate compromise to me.
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On Sunday, 12 May 2013 at 00:22:58 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: On 5/11/13 7:39 PM, Nick Sabalausky wrote: Furthermore, my whole point was nothing more than to merely suggest that *maybe* the delay should simply be somewhat less, *not* a demand or expectation, and *not* even a suggestion that they should all be released as soon as is technically feasable. Sure - let's take a quick poll on what would be the best release schedule. Andrei As frustrating as it is for non-attending enthusiasts like myself, I'd say stick with the current schedule. The marketing checks out.
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On Friday, 10 May 2013 at 15:26:07 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: On 5/10/13 11:24 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote: On 2013-05-10 16:38, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: Two a week. Is there a reason for this? Maximize impact. Andrei Well, just be careful because this could become a double edged sword. Some people may lose interest when the things are slow too.
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On 12-5-2013 10:47, Simen Kjaeraas wrote: On 2013-05-12, 02:22, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: On 5/11/13 7:39 PM, Nick Sabalausky wrote: Furthermore, my whole point was nothing more than to merely suggest that *maybe* the delay should simply be somewhat less, *not* a demand or expectation, and *not* even a suggestion that they should all be released as soon as is technically feasable. Sure - let's take a quick poll on what would be the best release schedule. I'm happy with the current schedule. Please, no more than one video every second day. Whatever schedule is chosen, please make it memorable like Tuesday Thursday - D talk day.
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On 5/12/13 9:14 AM, Andrej Mitrovic wrote: On 5/12/13, Andrei Alexandrescuseewebsiteforem...@erdani.org wrote: Sure - let's take a quick poll on what would be the best release schedule. Let's take a quick poll on how often we should make new pull requests. I say let's limit ourselves to only two per week. Again, I don't understand what the problem is. It is my opinion that it's best for D if we release videos on a schedule, and I explained what makes me think so. Could you please do the same? Thanks, Andrei
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On Sunday, 12 May 2013 at 00:22:58 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: Sure - let's take a quick poll on what would be the best release schedule. I kinda like the idea of one a day on monday/wednesday/friday. It'd be paced kinda like a college class then, easy to remember timing, and should keep a pretty steady discussion going.
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On 5/12/13 9:49 AM, Adam D. Ruppe wrote: On Sunday, 12 May 2013 at 00:22:58 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: Sure - let's take a quick poll on what would be the best release schedule. I kinda like the idea of one a day on monday/wednesday/friday. It'd be paced kinda like a college class then, easy to remember timing, and should keep a pretty steady discussion going. I was also thinking mon/wed/fri would be a great schedule! Andrei
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On Sunday, 12 May 2013 at 14:16:26 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: On 5/12/13 9:49 AM, Adam D. Ruppe wrote: On Sunday, 12 May 2013 at 00:22:58 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: Sure - let's take a quick poll on what would be the best release schedule. I kinda like the idea of one a day on monday/wednesday/friday. It'd be paced kinda like a college class then, easy to remember timing, and should keep a pretty steady discussion going. I was also thinking mon/wed/fri would be a great schedule! Andrei I definitely agree.
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
12-May-2013 17:49, Adam D. Ruppe пишет: On Sunday, 12 May 2013 at 00:22:58 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: Sure - let's take a quick poll on what would be the best release schedule. I kinda like the idea of one a day on monday/wednesday/friday. It'd be paced kinda like a college class then, easy to remember timing, and should keep a pretty steady discussion going. +1 -- Dmitry Olshansky
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On 05/12/2013 10:16 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: I was also thinking mon/wed/fri would be a great schedule! +1, Reasonable compromise
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On Sunday, 12 May 2013 at 14:16:26 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: I was also thinking mon/wed/fri would be a great schedule! Andrei +1
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On 12/05/2013 01:22, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: Sure - let's take a quick poll on what would be the best release schedule. Andrei I think 2 a week is about right. I watched Ali's twice, and might watch it again, I'm sure I've not taken it all in yet! If they are all released too quickly, there won't be time to digest and discuss them. The only downside to releasing them too slowly, imho, is that their impact might get diluted by the newsgroup chatter about them from those who got the t-shirt. A...
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On 5/12/2013 3:49 AM, John Colvin wrote: As frustrating as it is for non-attending enthusiasts like myself, I'd say stick with the current schedule. The marketing checks out. So far, it's been a big success on Reddit doing it this way. I've also seen a number of comments on Reddit and Hacker News to the effect of people showing a renewed interest in D. There's also the issue Andrei brought up about the speakers having worked hard on their presentations, and they each deserve their day in the sun. Spacing them out does that.
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On 5/12/2013 7:16 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: I was also thinking mon/wed/fri would be a great schedule! That does fit in with the observed phenomenon that a posting on reddit has a shelf life of about 2 days, and the statistics that posting on reddit on a weekend dooms it.
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On Sat, 11 May 2013 20:22:57 -0400 Andrei Alexandrescu seewebsiteforem...@erdani.org wrote: On 5/11/13 7:39 PM, Nick Sabalausky wrote: Furthermore, my whole point was nothing more than to merely suggest that *maybe* the delay should simply be somewhat less, *not* a demand or expectation, and *not* even a suggestion that they should all be released as soon as is technically feasable. Sure - let's take a quick poll on what would be the best release schedule. Not to make any particular point here, but given this current discussion, I found this recent comment hilariously ironic: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5694302 :) Again, I'm not posting that link to make any point, I just found it amusing to come across and wanted to share.
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On Friday, 10 May 2013 at 12:08:10 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: Enjoy! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPr2UspS0fE Andrei This can be a hard work, but it's possible to add subtitles on the videos? (Or at least on the next ones). PS: There is nothing wrong with the speech, it's just for convenience and more comprehension for non-english listeners.
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On 5/11/13 8:41 AM, MattCoder wrote: On Friday, 10 May 2013 at 12:08:10 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: Enjoy! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPr2UspS0fE Andrei This can be a hard work, but it's possible to add subtitles on the videos? (Or at least on the next ones). PS: There is nothing wrong with the speech, it's just for convenience and more comprehension for non-english listeners. There are speech-recognized subtitles available for English. There are ways to add subtitles for arbitrary languages but I'm not an expert. Of course the hardest part is defining them with the appropriate timings. Andrei
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On Saturday, 11 May 2013 at 13:29:08 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: There are speech-recognized subtitles available for English. Yes I know about those automatic translation tools, but they seem not work properly, (principally with Programming talks). In fact in some cases they can confuse more than help. Well, but that's ok!
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On 5/10/13, Andrei Alexandrescu seewebsiteforem...@erdani.org wrote: On 5/10/13 8:15 AM, Iain Buclaw wrote: Are we releasing one talk every couple of days? Two a week. Initially I took this as a joke, but are you serious about this? Are we going to have to wait 10 weeks for all the videos to be uploaded?
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On Saturday, May 11, 2013 21:12:00 Andrej Mitrovic wrote: On 5/10/13, Andrei Alexandrescu seewebsiteforem...@erdani.org wrote: On 5/10/13 8:15 AM, Iain Buclaw wrote: Are we releasing one talk every couple of days? Two a week. Initially I took this as a joke, but are you serious about this? Are we going to have to wait 10 weeks for all the videos to be uploaded? He's serious. If you post them all at once, then each video gets minimal impact. A lot of people will look at one, maybe two, and then not bother with the rest, because all of them showed up at once, whereas if they're posted over a longer period of time, then each video will have larger a impact, because it'll be showing up by itself, and it increases the chances of more casual people viewing it. Yes. This sucks for those who didn't get the chance to go to the conference and who will definitely view all of them regardless of how quickly they're released, but it produces better PR for the language this way. We'll keep getting new posts on reddit or wherever over a period of several weeks as opposed to it being more of a blip on people's radar and then gone. - Jonathan M Davis
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On 5/11/13, Jonathan M Davis jmdavisp...@gmx.com wrote: Yes. This sucks for those who didn't get the chance to go to the conference and who will definitely view all of them regardless of how quickly they're released, but it produces better PR for the language this way. I'm glad to see we have our priorities in order.
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On 5/11/13, Jonathan M Davis jmdavisp...@gmx.com wrote: and who will definitely view all of them regardless of how quickly they're released, but it produces better PR for the language this way. P.S. Public relations also encompasses relations with an existing user-base.
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On Sat, 11 May 2013 23:35:38 +0200 Andrej Mitrovic andrej.mitrov...@gmail.com wrote: On 5/11/13, Jonathan M Davis jmdavisp...@gmx.com wrote: and who will definitely view all of them regardless of how quickly they're released, but it produces better PR for the language this way. P.S. Public relations also encompasses relations with an existing user-base. I think some level of splitting-the-difference may be in order: I absolutely understand Andrei's reasoning and agree some level of staggering may be worthwhile for purposes of keeping D on the general public's radar. However, ten weeks is indeed a bit long, particularly if it's a deliberate staggering instead of simply a lack of time matter. And it does come across a bit disrespectful to those of us who wanted to go but couldn't. Additionally, does it really make D look good if people notice It took them two and a half months just to upload some videos? Assuming there isn't also a lack of time issue getting in the way, I think spreading it all across one month sounds more reasonable. Plus, there's no reason we can't just simply delay announcing to reddit/ycombinator/etc.
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On 5/11/13 5:35 PM, Andrej Mitrovic wrote: On 5/11/13, Jonathan M Davisjmdavisp...@gmx.com wrote: and who will definitely view all of them regardless of how quickly they're released, but it produces better PR for the language this way. P.S. Public relations also encompasses relations with an existing user-base. I think our approach is entirely reasonable. What exactly are you unhappy about? Andrei
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
He's serious. If you post them all at once, then each video gets minimal impact. A lot of people will look at one, maybe two, and then not bother with the rest, because all of them showed up at once, whereas if they're posted over a longer period of time, then each video will have larger a impact, because it'll be showing up by itself, and it increases the chances of more casual people viewing it. Yes. This sucks for those who didn't get the chance to go to the conference and who will definitely view all of them regardless of how quickly they're released, but it produces better PR for the language this way. We'll keep getting new posts on reddit or wherever over a period of several weeks as opposed to it being more of a blip on people's radar and then gone. - Jonathan M Davis If there is such a long delay all that will happen is that people will forget/lose interest and stop watching the talks. It makes much more sense to release one each day or couple of days both to keep people interested and to avoid irritating everyone...
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On Saturday, May 11, 2013 18:15:41 Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: On 5/11/13 5:35 PM, Andrej Mitrovic wrote: On 5/11/13, Jonathan M Davisjmdavisp...@gmx.com wrote: and who will definitely view all of them regardless of how quickly they're released, but it produces better PR for the language this way. P.S. Public relations also encompasses relations with an existing user-base. I think our approach is entirely reasonable. What exactly are you unhappy about? He wants to watch them all now (or at least as fast as he can get through them), and by pacing them out like this, he has to wait two months to be able to see them all. - Jonathan M Davis
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On 5/11/13 5:54 PM, Nick Sabalausky wrote: And it does come across a bit disrespectful to those of us who wanted to go but couldn't. That I do take issue with. After the organizers and the speakers invested very significant effort in making this event happen, the basic complaint here is that they can't get free content out fast enough. It may be a nice idea to offer advance access to Kickstarter contributors though. There are three basic issues. One obvious one is postprocessing and uploading, work that's quite time-intensive and merciless (literally so as this thread shows). Second is keeping the temporal arc going with our announcements and discussions - releasing all at once would cannibalize the conference. Third, Kickstarter contributors have put money and speakers have put hard work into this; it would be disrespectful to _them_ to dilute the value of the conference (nah, I don't care to go; after all I can always watch the free videos the day after.) We could and should adjust the release schedule to make it optimal with regards to the desiderata above. Two a week has been an initial thought. Please think it over and exercise reason. Thanks, Andrei
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On Saturday, May 11, 2013 18:31:16 Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: Please think it over and exercise reason. I have no problem with the pace, but then again, I attended the conference, so watching the videos is a review. And the slower pace makes it so that I can do things like post each one to my friends on google plus. Much faster, and it would be too much, too fast for them to pay any attention. I might get them to watch a few this way. - Jonathan M Davis
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On Sat, 11 May 2013 18:31:16 -0400 Andrei Alexandrescu seewebsiteforem...@erdani.org wrote: On 5/11/13 5:54 PM, Nick Sabalausky wrote: And it does come across a bit disrespectful to those of us who wanted to go but couldn't. That I do take issue with. After the organizers and the speakers invested very significant effort in making this event happen, the basic complaint here is that they can't get free content out fast enough. [...] Please think it over and exercise reason. Please don't misunderstand what I'm saying. I'll re-iterate a couple things: A. I didn't say those who didn't or chose not to go, but those who couldn't. But more importantly: B: I said it *comes across* a bit disrespectful, I *didn't* say that it actually *is* disrespectful. Furthermore, my whole point was nothing more than to merely suggest that *maybe* the delay should simply be somewhat less, *not* a demand or expectation, and *not* even a suggestion that they should all be released as soon as is technically feasable. I was very careful to choose wordings that would not get misconstrued as such, so please don't twist my words into insults that I never made just because you don't agree with an idea that I merely placed on the table.
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On 5/11/13 7:39 PM, Nick Sabalausky wrote: Furthermore, my whole point was nothing more than to merely suggest that *maybe* the delay should simply be somewhat less, *not* a demand or expectation, and *not* even a suggestion that they should all be released as soon as is technically feasable. Sure - let's take a quick poll on what would be the best release schedule. Andrei
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On 5/10/13 8:08 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: Enjoy! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPr2UspS0fE Andrei Vote up! http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1e2boo/dconf_2013_day_1_talk_2_copy_and_move_semantics/ Andrei
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On 10 May 2013 13:08, Andrei Alexandrescu seewebsiteforem...@erdani.orgwrote: Enjoy! https://www.youtube.com/watch?**v=mPr2UspS0fEhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPr2UspS0fE Andrei Are we releasing one talk every couple of days? -- Iain Buclaw *(p e ? p++ : p) = (c 0x0f) + '0';
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
Am 10.05.2013 14:11, schrieb Andrei Alexandrescu: On 5/10/13 8:08 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: Enjoy! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPr2UspS0fE Andrei Vote up! http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1e2boo/dconf_2013_day_1_talk_2_copy_and_move_semantics/ Andrei Onto reddit frontpage!
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On 2013-05-10 14:15, Iain Buclaw wrote: Are we releasing one talk every couple of days? We want all talks right now :) -- /Jacob Carlborg
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On 5/10/13 8:15 AM, Iain Buclaw wrote: On 10 May 2013 13:08, Andrei Alexandrescu seewebsiteforem...@erdani.org mailto:seewebsiteforem...@erdani.org wrote: Enjoy! https://www.youtube.com/watch?__v=mPr2UspS0fE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPr2UspS0fE Andrei Are we releasing one talk every couple of days? Two a week. Andrei
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On 10 May 2013 15:38, Andrei Alexandrescu seewebsiteforem...@erdani.orgwrote: On 5/10/13 8:15 AM, Iain Buclaw wrote: On 10 May 2013 13:08, Andrei Alexandrescu seewebsiteforem...@erdani.org mailto:SeeWebsiteForEmail@**erdani.org seewebsiteforem...@erdani.org wrote: Enjoy! https://www.youtube.com/watch?**__v=mPr2UspS0fEhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?__v=mPr2UspS0fE https://www.youtube.com/**watch?v=mPr2UspS0fEhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPr2UspS0fE Andrei Are we releasing one talk every couple of days? Two a week. Andrei Just so long as I haven't aged a year before my talk is online. ;) PS: technically age a year in 18 days... -- Iain Buclaw *(p e ? p++ : p) = (c 0x0f) + '0';
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On 2013-05-10 16:38, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: Two a week. Is there a reason for this? -- /Jacob Carlborg
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On 5/10/13 11:24 AM, Jacob Carlborg wrote: On 2013-05-10 16:38, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: Two a week. Is there a reason for this? Maximize impact. Andrei
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On Friday, 10 May 2013 at 15:24:43 UTC, Jacob Carlborg wrote: On 2013-05-10 16:38, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: Two a week. Is there a reason for this? It's good to keep people busy with D. ;) There have been way to many Go posts on reddit lately. :D
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On Friday, 10 May 2013 at 12:08:10 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: Enjoy! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPr2UspS0fE Andrei These need to be updates on Kickstarter too.
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On Friday, 10 May 2013 at 12:11:16 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: On 5/10/13 8:08 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: Enjoy! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPr2UspS0fE Andrei Vote up! http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1e2boo/dconf_2013_day_1_talk_2_copy_and_move_semantics/ Andrei Currently top of /r/programming hot :)
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On Fri, 10 May 2013 08:08:09 -0400 Andrei Alexandrescu seewebsiteforem...@erdani.org wrote: Enjoy! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPr2UspS0fE Will this be going up on archive.org, too?
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
Am 10.05.2013 19:28, schrieb Nick Sabalausky: On Fri, 10 May 2013 08:08:09 -0400 Andrei Alexandrescu seewebsiteforem...@erdani.org wrote: Enjoy! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPr2UspS0fE Will this be going up on archive.org, too? https://archive.org/details/dconf2013-day01-talk02
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On Fri, 10 May 2013 19:48:09 +0200 David d...@dav1d.de wrote: Am 10.05.2013 19:28, schrieb Nick Sabalausky: On Fri, 10 May 2013 08:08:09 -0400 Andrei Alexandrescu seewebsiteforem...@erdani.org wrote: Enjoy! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPr2UspS0fE Will this be going up on archive.org, too? https://archive.org/details/dconf2013-day01-talk02 Hmm, that's strange, it's not showing up (yet?) when searching their site for dconf: https://archive.org/search.php?query=dconf Anyway, thanks.
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On Fri, 10 May 2013 08:08:09 -0400 Andrei Alexandrescu seewebsiteforem...@erdani.org wrote: Enjoy! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPr2UspS0fE Torrents up for both the low-quality FLV (from YouTube) and the full-quality MP4 (from archive.org): http://semitwist.com/download/misc/dconf2013/ I don't know how much interest there is in torrents of these now that archive.org is (awesomely) hosting direct downloads of the original full quality. But since I'm planning on grabbing all of them anyway, I may as well continue tossing the torrents together while I'm at it.
Re: DConf 2013 Day 1 Talk 2: Copy and Move Semantics in D by Ali Cehreli
On 05/10/2013 11:45 AM, Nick Sabalausky wrote: Torrents up for both the low-quality FLV (from YouTube) and the full-quality MP4 (from archive.org): http://semitwist.com/download/misc/dconf2013/ Thank you for doing this! I don't know how much interest there is in torrents Never used torrents... :) Ali
