Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!
Going by the title, I fear that this is more wishful thinking and showmanship than anything else. This may sound quite arrogant, but then, so is your summary of thickbox. I'm afraid that the complete lack of graceful degradation means that this is one plugin I simply cannot use. I do like the styling though, and the use of tables is forgiveable, even if the purists would insist that tables are for data only. Best of luck with the next version! If you do release another version, I would maybe suggest a little less arrogance on your part, which will likely ensure a much better reception, than the less-than-cordial response which was received by this. Alas, I think this would also attract fewer responses from the community! :-) Webunity | Gilles van den Hoven wrote: And use my window plugin :) Why? Thickbox was made for images Window plugin was made for popups (dialogs) Just my $0.02 -- Gilles http://gilles.jquery.com/window/ ___ jQuery mailing list discuss@jquery.com http://jquery.com/discuss/ -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Stop-using-thickbox%21-tf2704990.html#a7586419 Sent from the JQuery mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ jQuery mailing list discuss@jquery.com http://jquery.com/discuss/
Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!
Dan Atkinson wrote: If you do release another version, I would maybe suggest a little less arrogance on your part, ... Eh, I think Gilles was just having fun and not trying to be arrogant. For cryin' out-loud, that's what the damned emoticons were created for, in the first place. I think those folks who considered his post arrogant just missed the smiley at the end of the sentence. Maybe he could have included a J/K or something to better indicate it. I dunno, I just hate seeing the guy dragged over the coals because he was trying to poke a little fun. :o( Of course, I guess I could be wrong, but I don't think I am. Anyway, that's a bit OT, I suppose. :o) Cheers, Chris ___ jQuery mailing list discuss@jquery.com http://jquery.com/discuss/
Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!
Eh, I think Gilles was just having fun and not trying to be arrogant. Thats the way I interpreted it (just having fun). Rey... ___ jQuery mailing list discuss@jquery.com http://jquery.com/discuss/
Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!
Dan Atkinson wrote: Going by the title, I fear that this is more wishful thinking and showmanship than anything else. Hi Dan, Correct. I wasn't trying to be arrogant, on the contrary, i just wanted to poke around to see how people reacted on my plugin. I've tried this before with the email is sent titled new plugin: Window, but i only received about 3 reactions on that, and i felt disapointed since i've put so much work in it, perfecting it (in my eyes). The mail with this title received some critisism, but also gave me some new ideas to work with, something i ran out of and that is all i ever wanted. To be honest, the last time i looked at thickbox it was only capable of showing 1 image, and not (like it is now) capable of doing much more. :s (sigh!) On your comment on degration, I am not sure my window plugin needs to degrade, after all, you have to open it from Javascript and it is a javascript build and controlled box... That's just my opinion, since i don't see how i could degrade this... It is either javascript on or off with this plugin. I'm hoping to get the community's thoughts on how i can improve this dialog, so people can implement this on their own CMS/website whatever use they feel for it. I think the reason the dragging is kinda slow, is the entire discussion going on about the best way to create the draggables for interface, so i hope that get's solved pretty quick. Since all i wanted to create (show off) with this plugin that it is possible to create a OS like dialog very easy (without those nasty popup blockers), maybe it's better to find a way to combine both plugins?? Anyway, i hope i didn't sound to arrogant, i was also a bit pissed on ajaxian.com constantly bragging on about ruby, prototype, scriptaculous, moo, YUI and forgetting all about jquery Hoping on a response, -- Gilles ___ jQuery mailing list discuss@jquery.com http://jquery.com/discuss/
Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!
On your comment on degration, I am not sure my window plugin needs to degrade, after all, you have to open it from Javascript and it is a javascript build and controlled box... That's just my opinion, since i don't see how i could degrade this... It is either javascript on or off with this plugin. Gilles, The way to make it degrade is to build it off the markup like many of the other plugins. They take existing markup and transform it into something else. I don't see why your window plugin couldn't do the same thing. Just a thought. Mike ___ jQuery mailing list discuss@jquery.com http://jquery.com/discuss/
Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!
Christopher Jordan schrieb: I see. So is it like the lesser of two evils (because IE doesn't comply with all the standard CSS gizmos, like display: table-cell)? Either you use tables, or you have to use conditional comments, and some other CSS-for-IE hacks to make it work? Does that sound about right? Hi Chris, that's right. But: the only reason I can think of to use tables, is, that you can easily have content vertically aligned in the middle. That is what CSS honestly lacks. This can also be achievend with a little dynamic property for IE, so that's one line for a hack versus improved accessibility plus increased flexibility/maintainability plus 50% less markup. That sounds like a good trade-off, doesn't it? And, is this really a reason not to use the plug-in? I've used Gilles submodal dialog code before and it's served me quite well, so I was excited to use something else he'd written. I've never stated I wouldn't use the plug-in. Once I'm going to use it, I'll CSSify it ;-) -- Klaus ___ jQuery mailing list discuss@jquery.com http://jquery.com/discuss/
Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!
Finally some reactions. I did not mean to say My plugin is better or something like that, just wanted to get your attention to my plugin, because, like said, i can't perfect it without you guys. Some points mentioned by you guys: * I'll try go get a CSS layout online as soon as possible. * Some people who are complaining that it relies on interface. I had to, if i wanted this funcionality myself the code got twice as big at least! So that is the why, i hope you can understand. Something called reusability :) * Please define slow i know it is slow, but this is only the draggable part in IE6, i don't know what is wrong there, since i use the bgiframe hack which everybody uses. * Glen, i don't have IE7 yet, but i'll try to fix this as soon as i can. I realize there's a smiley on the end, but this really /is/ a joke, right? Your plugin frankly isn't anywhere near ready for public use, as much as I wish it were. Su, like said, don't give such a comment without giving some solutions or problem areas on my test enviroment, windows with IE6 and FF 1.5.0.8 it works fine. I can't fix what i don't see as broken. p.s. who's Quicken? -- Gilles ___ jQuery mailing list discuss@jquery.com http://jquery.com/discuss/
Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!
Christopher Jordan schrieb: Thanks for the response, Klaus. :o) Klaus Hartl wrote: Hi Chris, that's right. But: the only reason I can think of to use tables, is, that you can easily have content vertically aligned in the middle. That is what CSS honestly lacks. This can also be achievend with a little dynamic property for IE, so that's one line for a hack versus improved accessibility plus increased flexibility/maintainability plus 50% less markup. That sounds like a good trade-off, doesn't it? so what's the hack? don't leave me hangin', brotha! :o) Hi Christopher, wasn't sure if you are interested... here's a demo: http://stilbuero.de/demo/vertical_centering/ One more thing to know: With JavaScript disabled in IE it will not be centered. I think that's acceptable, because it degrades well. -- Klaus ___ jQuery mailing list discuss@jquery.com http://jquery.com/discuss/
Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!
On Nov 27, 2006, at 8:00 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: p.s. who's Quicken? Gilles, Quicken is the #1 personal finance software in the world in terms of both sales and all-out excellence. For more: http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,1996812,00.asp Karl _ Karl Swedberg www.englishrules.com www.learningjquery.com ___ jQuery mailing list discuss@jquery.com http://jquery.com/discuss/
Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!
Giuliano Marcangelo schrieb: so briefly to sum up.. mark up is more lightweight, page displays quicker, mark up is vastly more flexible/versatile/reusable. Thanks Giuliano for the assistance :-) I had mentioned bloated HTML and inflexibility (a more inflexible solution than you think in the first place) somewhat earlier in the thread in reply to Christopher and thought this fact is quite clear anyway. I think your example could use even less markup: div class=rbt div div/div /div /div could probalbly be replaced with: div class=rbt /div Thanks again :-) -- Klaus ___ jQuery mailing list discuss@jquery.com http://jquery.com/discuss/
Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!
Here's another (probably older) approach to vertical centering with CSS I've been using for a while. http://www.wpdfd.com/editorial/thebox/deadcentre3.html This one doesn't need any proprietary IE code to get the centering to work in IE, but it does require a bit of extra markup as well as using 'absolute' positioning which can be a hassle in some situations. I haven't tested the technique Klaus linked to, but I think I actually I like that one better for most situations (http://stilbuero.de/demo/vertical_centering/). Thanks for sharing, Klaus! :) -THEO- -Original Message- From: Klaus Hartl [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 10:44 AM To: jQuery Discussion. Subject: Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox! Christopher Jordan schrieb: Thanks for the response, Klaus. :o) Klaus Hartl wrote: Hi Chris, that's right. But: the only reason I can think of to use tables, is, that you can easily have content vertically aligned in the middle. That is what CSS honestly lacks. This can also be achievend with a little dynamic property for IE, so that's one line for a hack versus improved accessibility plus increased flexibility/maintainability plus 50% less markup. That sounds like a good trade-off, doesn't it? so what's the hack? don't leave me hangin', brotha! :o) Hi Christopher, wasn't sure if you are interested... here's a demo: http://stilbuero.de/demo/vertical_centering/ One more thing to know: With JavaScript disabled in IE it will not be centered. I think that's acceptable, because it degrades well. -- Klaus ___ jQuery mailing list discuss@jquery.com http://jquery.com/discuss/
Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!
Theo Welch schrieb: Here's another (probably older) approach to vertical centering with CSS I've been using for a while. http://www.wpdfd.com/editorial/thebox/deadcentre3.html This one doesn't need any proprietary IE code to get the centering to work in IE, but it does require a bit of extra markup as well as using 'absolute' positioning which can be a hassle in some situations. But that wouldn't stop it from scrolling out of the viewport, would it? Actually the best approach for fixed positioning seems to a very different approach: Prevent the entire page from scrolling and let only the overflowing parts scroll. That way you can stick to absolute positioning and everything is fine. Not quite applicable to most layouts, but still in intersting option when starting from scratch. -- Jörn Zaefferer http://bassistance.de ___ jQuery mailing list discuss@jquery.com http://jquery.com/discuss/
Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!
The example on wpdfd.com is also dead slow on my IE6 when resizing horizontally. It performs well when resizing vertically. Hmm. --Jacob Theo Welch schrieb: Here's another (probably older) approach to vertical centering with CSS I've been using for a while. http://www.wpdfd.com/editorial/thebox/deadcentre3.html This one doesn't need any proprietary IE code to get the centering to work in IE, but it does require a bit of extra markup as well as using 'absolute' positioning which can be a hassle in some situations. But that wouldn't stop it from scrolling out of the viewport, would it? Actually the best approach for fixed positioning seems to a very different approach: Prevent the entire page from scrolling and let only the overflowing parts scroll. That way you can stick to absolute positioning and everything is fine. Not quite applicable to most layouts, but still in intersting option when starting from scratch. -- Jörn Zaefferer http://bassistance.de ___ jQuery mailing list discuss@jquery.com http://jquery.com/discuss/ ___ jQuery mailing list discuss@jquery.com http://jquery.com/discuss/
Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!
Gavin M. Roy schreef: Unfortunately both are unusable to a degree. While yours uses table for layout, which I avoid like the plague and thickbox has hardcoded javascript values for getting at data, both of you suffer from requiring control of the body tag. I often in design separate html and body from each other in CSS to achieve centering the body of content without additional divs. While I agree thickbox is a bit too specific for picture content, there are other plugins which do the same. What I'd prefer to see from plugin authors is more generic, generalized functionality that then can be combined. For example a disable plugin which makes a div fill the window over all of the other content. This could be used for Window and Thickbox. Then a more xhtml/css centric window plugin, and on top of that, picture based lightbox/thickbox plugins. And that was my $0.02. Thanks for your contributions. Gavin I agree with Gavin on this. I think the popup plugins could be programmed like the interface plugin; a utility class and on top of that all other functionalities. David ___ jQuery mailing list discuss@jquery.com http://jquery.com/discuss/
Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!
I've already stated my appreciation for what the plugin will do(and does so far) in the original announcement thread. I also offered money for it once usable. I have a client project which would have been made more pleasant by this. As it stands, though, I'm having to look at the Prototype alternative. Besides knowing near-nothing about Prototype, I just prefer the way jQuery works. The bright red text at the top of the page itself points out the major issue: Severe lack of browser testing. That, coupled with suggesting that people start using it in favor of a stable, tested alternative while misrepresenting that alternative's use(Thickbox is /not/ just for images) is yes, a joke. The issue here isn't me saying this is crap. I'm not, and it's not; I'm rather amazed. But the plugin is not ready for public use, eg: replacing Thickbox. Do you actually think the original message's suggestion is a valid consideration? I'm perfectly willing to offer what I can in the way of testing and markup, once some goals are stated. The scripting itself is probably already well beyond my abilities. If I've been late in providing notes, well, sorry, I have clients and can probably devote even less time to this than Gilles himself, but here we go: The plugin's first and third examples fail to launch(with errors) in my copies of both IE6 and IE7. The second does launch, but the text is unselectable. I doubt many people will find that acceptable. IE5.5(why not, since browser goals aren't stated), produces identical behavior, though the button rollovers are a little off. The examples fail altogether in Safari 2.0.4. Unacceptable. While the comments about table use are arguably valid, they're largely unimportant compared to the simple fact that the plugin just plain doesn't work in too many cases. It does seem a bit slow. I suppose it remains to be seen whether this is just something that has to be dealt with, or if the code is unoptimized given it's so early in development. Why can the links not fall back to something if JS is turned off? Is that actually a requirement(which would be unfortunate), or just something that hasn't been accounted for(yet)? On 11/25/06, Rey Bango [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Su, if you're going to make a comment like that, at least have the courtesy to: 1) Cite the reasons that you feel his work isn't ready 2) Offer up solutions or examples that could help him out in improving his work Gilles is trying to provide functionality which really isn't available to the jQuery community and it would be better if everyone provided some sensible guidance instead of simply stating criticisms. Lets be helpful here guys. Rey... Su wrote: On 11/25/06, *Webunity | Gilles van den Hoven* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And use my window plugin :) I realize there's a smiley on the end, but this really /is/ a joke, right? Your plugin frankly isn't anywhere near ready for public use, as much as I wish it were. ___ jQuery mailing list discuss@jquery.com http://jquery.com/discuss/ ___ jQuery mailing list discuss@jquery.com http://jquery.com/discuss/ ___ jQuery mailing list discuss@jquery.com http://jquery.com/discuss/
Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!
Hi Klaus, Since when did the use of tables become taboo or cause issues with accessibility? I understand your rationale for using tables to display tabular data but prior to CSS, they also served as the main method for positioning all types of data and forms. And while I am making a shift to using CSS for that type of work, I still see tables as a viable alternative for data positioning. Rey... Klaus Hartl wrote: Rey Bango schrieb: some hard core CSS fans might not use it because of tables To me, that has nothing to do with fanism, it's more about using things the way they are meant to and also, if it weren't a javascript window, that is not much accessible anyway, about accessibility. -- Klaus ___ jQuery mailing list discuss@jquery.com http://jquery.com/discuss/ ___ jQuery mailing list discuss@jquery.com http://jquery.com/discuss/
Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!
Hi Su, Everything you mentioned in *this* email is exactly what you should've stated from the get-go. This is the type of feedback that will help Gilles better a plugin thats truly needed by this community. Again, if you read my initial reply to you, you'll see that what I'm asking is that people offer up constructive criticsm in order to help guide the direction of the project. Do you really feel that saying this really /is/ a joke, right? is in anyway constructive criticsm? In terms of being late to providing notes, we all have clients or work and its understandable if you can't immediately reply. Shoot man, you have to make a living and I understand that. But in the time it took you to post the original reply, you probably could've written most of the stuff the wrote in this email. I definitely don't want you to feel like I'm singling you out. Its definitely not about you. I just want to ensure that Gilles gets some good feedback to help him improve his work and that he also gets kudos for something that many on here, including myself, haven't even attempted yet and/or may not have the skills to accomplish. Rey... Su wrote: I've already stated my appreciation for what the plugin will do(and does so far) in the original announcement thread. I also offered money for it once usable. I have a client project which would have been made more pleasant by this. As it stands, though, I'm having to look at the Prototype alternative. Besides knowing near-nothing about Prototype, I just prefer the way jQuery works. The bright red text at the top of the page itself points out the major issue: Severe lack of browser testing. That, coupled with suggesting that people start using it in favor of a stable, tested alternative while misrepresenting that alternative's use(Thickbox is /not/ just for images) is yes, a joke. The issue here isn't me saying this is crap. I'm not, and it's not; I'm rather amazed. But the plugin is not ready for public use, eg: replacing Thickbox. Do you actually think the original message's suggestion is a valid consideration? I'm perfectly willing to offer what I can in the way of testing and markup, once some goals are stated. The scripting itself is probably already well beyond my abilities. If I've been late in providing notes, well, sorry, I have clients and can probably devote even less time to this than Gilles himself, but here we go: The plugin's first and third examples fail to launch(with errors) in my copies of both IE6 and IE7. The second does launch, but the text is unselectable. I doubt many people will find that acceptable. IE5.5(why not, since browser goals aren't stated), produces identical behavior, though the button rollovers are a little off. The examples fail altogether in Safari 2.0.4. Unacceptable. While the comments about table use are arguably valid, they're largely unimportant compared to the simple fact that the plugin just plain doesn't work in too many cases. It does seem a bit slow. I suppose it remains to be seen whether this is just something that has to be dealt with, or if the code is unoptimized given it's so early in development. Why can the links not fall back to something if JS is turned off? Is that actually a requirement(which would be unfortunate), or just something that hasn't been accounted for(yet)? On 11/25/06, *Rey Bango* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Su, if you're going to make a comment like that, at least have the courtesy to: 1) Cite the reasons that you feel his work isn't ready 2) Offer up solutions or examples that could help him out in improving his work Gilles is trying to provide functionality which really isn't available to the jQuery community and it would be better if everyone provided some sensible guidance instead of simply stating criticisms. Lets be helpful here guys. Rey... Su wrote: On 11/25/06, *Webunity | Gilles van den Hoven* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And use my window plugin :) I realize there's a smiley on the end, but this really /is/ a joke, right? Your plugin frankly isn't anywhere near ready for public use, as much as I wish it were. ___ jQuery mailing list discuss@jquery.com mailto:discuss@jquery.com http://jquery.com/discuss/ ___ jQuery mailing list discuss@jquery.com mailto:discuss@jquery.com http://jquery.com/discuss/ ___
Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!
Rey Bango schrieb: Hi Klaus, Since when did the use of tables become taboo or cause issues with accessibility? Hi Rey, since people have started to use screen readers. The contents of a table are read in the order they appear in the source, not as they appear on the screen. Have you cared about linearization when using a layout table? See http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10-HTML-TECHS/#tables-layout for example. Also layout tables doesn't play nice on small screens. I understand your rationale for using tables to display tabular data but prior to CSS, they also served as the main method for positioning all types of data and forms. Because they were used like that, shouldn't serve as justification to do so today. Sure, I have used them too (last time 2002 by the way), but I think it's really, really time to move on. Browsers even start to support CSS 3 columns... -- Klaus ___ jQuery mailing list discuss@jquery.com http://jquery.com/discuss/
Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!
Gosh talk about slow to load... That yahoo thing took a while to load, I'll say. --Jacob If it was as fast and as cool looking as YUI's BasicDialog ( http://www.jackslocum.com/blog/2006/11/04/033-beta-2-basicdialog-yahooextview-and-more/), I'm sure a lot of people would use it... you wouldn't need to convince them. But I think it needs work... good start though. Rich On 11/25/06, Webunity | Gilles van den Hoven [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And use my window plugin :) Why? Thickbox was made for images Window plugin was made for popups (dialogs) Just my $0.02 -- Gilles http://gilles.jquery.com/window/ ___ jQuery mailing list discuss@jquery.com http://jquery.com/discuss/ ___ jQuery mailing list discuss@jquery.com http://jquery.com/discuss/ ___ jQuery mailing list discuss@jquery.com http://jquery.com/discuss/
Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!
Hi Klaus, Yes, this is just my personal opinion as being a web developer and it wasn't meant to be offensive. Unfortunately I can't imagine anything more important than accessibility. If I can't convince you (or anybody else) with that I'll certainly give up and won't bother you again with my opinions about that topic. It is offtopic here anyway. Oh cmon man. I don't get offended that easily and your opinions are never a bother to me. Why do you think I bug you all of the time offlist?! :o) What I'm trying to say is that if there are other compelling reasons to not use tables, then I want to know them. Web accessibility is a very important issue but there has to be more to your thinking than just web accessibility or it's really, really time to move on. Again, give me something to work with. Rey... ___ jQuery mailing list discuss@jquery.com http://jquery.com/discuss/
Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!
On 26/11/06, Rey Bango [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:What I'm trying to say is that if there are other compelling reasons to not use tables, then I want to know them. Web accessibility is a very important issue but there has to be more to your thinking than just web accessibility or it's really, really time to move on. Again, give me something to work with. Rey, the html markup and css needed to render, this window.is far less using a CSS layoutIMHO... therefore in this particular case, not only are accessibility issues addressed but bandwidth is saved. CSS:LAYOUT FOR WINDOW div class=rbt div div/div /div /div div class=rbl div class=rbr CONTENT (IFRAME)..GOES HERE /div /div div class=rbb div div /div /div /div TABLE LAYOUT FOR WINDOW: table cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0 border=0 class=jwTitle tr td class=jwTitleLnbsp;/td td class=jwTitleCnbsp;/td td class=jwTitleRnbsp;/td /tr /table table cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0 border=0 class=jwContent tr td class=jwContentLnbsp;/td td class=jwContentCnbsp;/td CONTENT (IFRAME)..GOES HERE..replaces nbsp; td class=jwContentRnbsp;/td /tr /table table cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0 border=0 class=jwStatus tr td class=jwStatusLnbsp;/td td class=jwStatusLnbsp;/td td class=jwStatusLnbsp;/td /tr /table When it comes to laying out an entire page, using a CSS layout ( which has a steep learning curve, in order to address browser differences), produces a layout that is displayed as it is read by the browser, whereas if you use nested tables to produce a complex layout, then all the table structures must be written to the browser, and the browser then calculates, the sizes of the tables and tablecells, and then displays themso the actual markup is more lightweight and it renders quicker in the browser.added to this.you can, using the same mark up, but different CSS, display an entirely different page (take a look at www.csszengarden.com) so briefly to sum up.. mark up is more lightweight, page displays quicker, mark up is vastly more flexible/versatile/reusable. Regards Giuliano Marcangelo ___ jQuery mailing list discuss@jquery.com http://jquery.com/discuss/
Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!
Thanks Giuliano. Thats the additional type of info that I was looking for! Rey.// Giuliano Marcangelo wrote: On 26/11/06, *Rey Bango* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:What I'm trying to say is that if there are other compelling reasons to not use tables, then I want to know them. Web accessibility is a very important issue but there has to be more to your thinking than just web accessibility or it's really, really time to move on. Again, give me something to work with. Rey, the html markup and css needed to render, this window.is far less using a CSS layoutIMHO... therefore in this particular case, not only are accessibility issues addressed but bandwidth is saved. CSS:LAYOUT FOR WINDOW div class=rbt div div/div /div /div div class=rbl div class=rbr CONTENT (IFRAME)..GOES HERE /div /div div class=rbb div div /div /div /div TABLE LAYOUT FOR WINDOW: table cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0 border=0 class=jwTitle tr td class=jwTitleLnbsp;/td td class=jwTitleCnbsp;/td td class=jwTitleRnbsp;/td /tr /table table cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0 border=0 class=jwContent tr td class=jwContentLnbsp;/td td class=jwContentCnbsp;/td CONTENT (IFRAME)..GOES HERE..replaces nbsp; td class=jwContentRnbsp;/td /tr /table table cellspacing=0 cellpadding=0 border=0 class=jwStatus tr td class=jwStatusLnbsp;/td td class=jwStatusLnbsp;/td td class=jwStatusLnbsp;/td /tr /table When it comes to laying out an entire page, using a CSS layout ( which has a steep learning curve, in order to address browser differences), produces a layout that is displayed as it is read by the browser, whereas if you use nested tables to produce a complex layout, then all the table structures must be written to the browser, and the browser then calculates, the sizes of the tables and tablecells, and then displays themso the actual markup is more lightweight and it renders quicker in the browser.added to this.you can, using the same mark up, but different CSS, display an entirely different page (take a look at www.csszengarden.com http://www.csszengarden.com) so briefly to sum up.. mark up is more lightweight, page displays quicker, mark up is vastly more flexible/versatile/reusable. Regards Giuliano Marcangelo ___ jQuery mailing list discuss@jquery.com http://jquery.com/discuss/ ___ jQuery mailing list discuss@jquery.com http://jquery.com/discuss/
Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!
But, I have a feelling that your plugin is very slow OTOH, semanticaly, you are right 2006/11/25, Webunity | Gilles van den Hoven [EMAIL PROTECTED]: And use my window plugin :) Why? Thickbox was made for images Window plugin was made for popups (dialogs) Just my $0.02 -- Gilles http://gilles.jquery.com/window/ ___ jQuery mailing list discuss@jquery.com http://jquery.com/discuss/ -- Dragan Krstić krdr http://krdr.ebloggy.com/ ___ jQuery mailing list discuss@jquery.com http://jquery.com/discuss/
Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!
Theres many reasons why someone would want to use thickbox instead of your plugin. 1. Your plugin uses tables, noone likes tables. 2. Your plugin is slow compared to thickbox 3. Your plugin uses a bunch of things from the Interface library, thickbox only needs jquery. 4. Your plugin is a bit harder to use, with thickbox all you need to do is add a class to the element, and a bit of CSS styling. 5. Tables... ew. On 11/25/06, Webunity | Gilles van den Hoven [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And use my window plugin :) Why? Thickbox was made for images Window plugin was made for popups (dialogs) Just my $0.02 -- Gilles http://gilles.jquery.com/window/ ___ jQuery mailing list discuss@jquery.com http://jquery.com/discuss/ ___ jQuery mailing list discuss@jquery.com http://jquery.com/discuss/
Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!
Yay! It's out! Thanks Gilles. Great work. I can't wait to start using it. Now, we need a little repository for different themes. :o) Chris Dragan Krstic wrote: But, I have a feelling that your plugin is very slow OTOH, semanticaly, you are right 2006/11/25, Webunity | Gilles van den Hoven [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]: And use my window plugin :) Why? Thickbox was made for images Window plugin was made for popups (dialogs) Just my $0.02 -- Gilles http://gilles.jquery.com/window/ ___ jQuery mailing list discuss@jquery.com mailto:discuss@jquery.com http://jquery.com/discuss/ -- Dragan Krstić krdr http://krdr.ebloggy.com/ ___ jQuery mailing list discuss@jquery.com http://jquery.com/discuss/ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.430 / Virus Database: 268.14.14/548 - Release Date: 11/23/2006 3:22 PM ___ jQuery mailing list discuss@jquery.com http://jquery.com/discuss/
Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!
uhm, all the samples seems not working on the last version of Safari ;) 2006/11/25, Matt Stith [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Theres many reasons why someone would want to use thickbox instead of your plugin. 1. Your plugin uses tables, noone likes tables. 2. Your plugin is slow compared to thickbox 3. Your plugin uses a bunch of things from the Interface library, thickbox only needs jquery. 4. Your plugin is a bit harder to use, with thickbox all you need to do is add a class to the element, and a bit of CSS styling. 5. Tables... ew. On 11/25/06, Webunity | Gilles van den Hoven [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And use my window plugin :) Why? Thickbox was made for images Window plugin was made for popups (dialogs) Just my $0.02 -- Gilles http://gilles.jquery.com/window/ ___ jQuery mailing list discuss@jquery.com http://jquery.com/discuss/ ___ jQuery mailing list discuss@jquery.com http://jquery.com/discuss/ -- Roberto Ortelli http://weblogger.ch ___ jQuery mailing list discuss@jquery.com http://jquery.com/discuss/
Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!
What's wrong with tables? Tables allow this box to be themeable, right? I agree that tables prolly shouldn't be used to layout an entire page, but this is a little popup (or a big one)... in either case, it just lays out the frame within which the content of the popup is held. I don't think they're too bad in this case. Chris 2006/11/25, Matt Stith [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Theres many reasons why someone would want to use thickbox instead of your plugin. 1. Your plugin uses tables, noone likes tables. 2. Your plugin is slow compared to thickbox 3. Your plugin uses a bunch of things from the Interface library, thickbox only needs jquery. 4. Your plugin is a bit harder to use, with thickbox all you need to do is add a class to the element, and a bit of CSS styling. 5. Tables... ew. On 11/25/06, Webunity | Gilles van den Hoven [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And use my window plugin :) Why? Thickbox was made for images Window plugin was made for popups (dialogs) Just my $0.02 -- Gilles http://gilles.jquery.com/window/ ___ jQuery mailing list discuss@jquery.com http://jquery.com/discuss/ ___ jQuery mailing list discuss@jquery.com http://jquery.com/discuss/ ___ jQuery mailing list discuss@jquery.com http://jquery.com/discuss/
Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!
Its very possible to make the box themeable with CSS. On 11/25/06, Christopher Jordan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What's wrong with tables? Tables allow this box to be themeable, right? I agree that tables prolly shouldn't be used to layout an entire page, but this is a little popup (or a big one)... in either case, it just lays out the frame within which the content of the popup is held. I don't think they're too bad in this case. Chris 2006/11/25, Matt Stith [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Theres many reasons why someone would want to use thickbox instead of your plugin. 1. Your plugin uses tables, noone likes tables. 2. Your plugin is slow compared to thickbox 3. Your plugin uses a bunch of things from the Interface library, thickbox only needs jquery. 4. Your plugin is a bit harder to use, with thickbox all you need to do is add a class to the element, and a bit of CSS styling. 5. Tables... ew. On 11/25/06, Webunity | Gilles van den Hoven [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And use my window plugin :) Why? Thickbox was made for images Window plugin was made for popups (dialogs) Just my $0.02 -- Gilles http://gilles.jquery.com/window/ ___ jQuery mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED]://jquery.com/discuss/ ___ jQuery mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED]://jquery.com/discuss/ ___ jQuery mailing list discuss@jquery.com http://jquery.com/discuss/ ___ jQuery mailing list discuss@jquery.com http://jquery.com/discuss/
Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!
Okay. Well, Gilles seemed to think there was a problem with it. I still don't see the problem. Oh well. :o) Chris Matt Stith wrote: Its very possible to make the box themeable with CSS. On 11/25/06, *Christopher Jordan* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What's wrong with tables? Tables allow this box to be themeable, right? I agree that tables prolly shouldn't be used to layout an entire page, but this is a little popup (or a big one)... in either case, it just lays out the frame within which the content of the popup is held. I don't think they're too bad in this case. Chris 2006/11/25, Matt Stith [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]: Theres many reasons why someone would want to use thickbox instead of your plugin. 1. Your plugin uses tables, noone likes tables. 2. Your plugin is slow compared to thickbox 3. Your plugin uses a bunch of things from the Interface library, thickbox only needs jquery. 4. Your plugin is a bit harder to use, with thickbox all you need to do is add a class to the element, and a bit of CSS styling. 5. Tables... ew. On 11/25/06, Webunity | Gilles van den Hoven [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And use my window plugin :) Why? Thickbox was made for images Window plugin was made for popups (dialogs) Just my $0.02 -- Gilles http://gilles.jquery.com/window/ ___ jQuery mailing list discuss@jquery.com mailto:discuss@jquery.com http://jquery.com/discuss/ ___ jQuery mailing list discuss@jquery.com mailto:discuss@jquery.com http://jquery.com/discuss/ ___ jQuery mailing list discuss@jquery.com mailto:discuss@jquery.com http://jquery.com/discuss/ ___ jQuery mailing list discuss@jquery.com http://jquery.com/discuss/ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.430 / Virus Database: 268.14.14/548 - Release Date: 11/23/2006 3:22 PM ___ jQuery mailing list discuss@jquery.com http://jquery.com/discuss/
Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!
Christopher Jordan schrieb: What's wrong with tables? Tables allow this box to be themeable, right? No, that's CSS (at least in 2006). Tables are for tabular data. I don't see any need for tables to let something be themeable. Apart from that, you can make an element render like a table with display: table if you really need it. -- Klaus ___ jQuery mailing list discuss@jquery.com http://jquery.com/discuss/
Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!
What about what Gilles says on his demo page: Layout of the dialogs To be honest one of the first things i started on was the dialog itself. I decided to go for CSS a table layout. What? Tables!? They are so... 1995! Yeah i know, but in this particular scenario tables where the only way to go. Off course you can do some tricky css styling, but you'll end up using display: table-cell; so why not start with tables to begin with. *The dialogs are themable; This means you have:* * a top-left border, title part and a top-right border. * a left border, center part and a right border. * a bottom-left border, status part and a bottom-right border. One of the things i really wanted was that the title and the status text where vertically aligned in the containing div. If you try to acchieve this with CSS, you'll have to use a lot of tricks to get everything right (display: table-cell, conditional comments etc.). Because the table nativly supports vertical centering, and because of the typical tic-tac-toe layout of the dialog i was going to create, i started with one 3x3 table. But i soon found out that this wasn't going to work, if you considered scrollbars. Bladibladibla, lots of other things tried.. It works now, with 3 tables, one for the title bar, one for the content part and one for the statusbar. Believe me, i have tried and tried and tried even more to get this done in another way. Would you have made a different choice? I'm interested in knowing. I'm not a CSS guru, and I'm still learning. Does Gilles have a valid argument, here? Thanks, Chris Klaus Hartl wrote: Christopher Jordan schrieb: What's wrong with tables? Tables allow this box to be themeable, right? No, that's CSS (at least in 2006). Tables are for tabular data. I don't see any need for tables to let something be themeable. Apart from that, you can make an element render like a table with display: table if you really need it. -- Klaus ___ jQuery mailing list discuss@jquery.com http://jquery.com/discuss/ ___ jQuery mailing list discuss@jquery.com http://jquery.com/discuss/
Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!
Christopher Jordan schrieb: What about what Gilles says on his demo page: Layout of the dialogs To be honest one of the first things i started on was the dialog itself. I decided to go for CSS a table layout. What? Tables!? They are so... 1995! Yeah i know, but in this particular scenario tables where the only way to go. Off course you can do some tricky css styling, but you'll end up using display: table-cell; so why not start with tables to begin with. *The dialogs are themable; This means you have:* * a top-left border, title part and a top-right border. * a left border, center part and a right border. * a bottom-left border, status part and a bottom-right border. One of the things i really wanted was that the title and the status text where vertically aligned in the containing div. If you try to acchieve this with CSS, you'll have to use a lot of tricks to get everything right (display: table-cell, conditional comments etc.). Because the table nativly supports vertical centering, and because of the typical tic-tac-toe layout of the dialog i was going to create, i started with one 3x3 table. But i soon found out that this wasn't going to work, if you considered scrollbars. Bladibladibla, lots of other things tried.. It works now, with 3 tables, one for the title bar, one for the content part and one for the statusbar. Believe me, i have tried and tried and tried even more to get this done in another way. Would you have made a different choice? I'm interested in knowing. I'm not a CSS guru, and I'm still learning. Does Gilles have a valid argument, here? Thanks, Chris Hi Chris, I agree that some things are harder to achieve with CSS, nevertheless I would have done it differently, with a pure CSS layout. It is doable. Unfortunatly I hadn't the time for that, when Gilles asked me for some help. But please don't blame me :-) Table layout has another disadvantage apart from bloated HTML. Because you can't restyle tables in IE using these makes that a more inflexible solution than you think in the first place. Maybe that's not so important here, because there's only one cell used. If you used two cells for example for a two column layout, you are stuck with that in IE in a print style sheet for instance. -- Klaus ___ jQuery mailing list discuss@jquery.com http://jquery.com/discuss/
Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!
I see. So is it like the lesser of two evils (because IE doesn't comply with all the standard CSS gizmos, like display: table-cell)? Either you use tables, or you have to use conditional comments, and some other CSS-for-IE hacks to make it work? Does that sound about right? And, is this really a reason not to use the plug-in? I've used Gilles submodal dialog code before and it's served me quite well, so I was excited to use something else he'd written. Thanks, Chris Klaus Hartl wrote: Christopher Jordan schrieb: What about what Gilles says on his demo page: Layout of the dialogs To be honest one of the first things i started on was the dialog itself. I decided to go for CSS a table layout. What? Tables!? They are so... 1995! Yeah i know, but in this particular scenario tables where the only way to go. Off course you can do some tricky css styling, but you'll end up using display: table-cell; so why not start with tables to begin with. *The dialogs are themable; This means you have:* * a top-left border, title part and a top-right border. * a left border, center part and a right border. * a bottom-left border, status part and a bottom-right border. One of the things i really wanted was that the title and the status text where vertically aligned in the containing div. If you try to acchieve this with CSS, you'll have to use a lot of tricks to get everything right (display: table-cell, conditional comments etc.). Because the table nativly supports vertical centering, and because of the typical tic-tac-toe layout of the dialog i was going to create, i started with one 3x3 table. But i soon found out that this wasn't going to work, if you considered scrollbars. Bladibladibla, lots of other things tried.. It works now, with 3 tables, one for the title bar, one for the content part and one for the statusbar. Believe me, i have tried and tried and tried even more to get this done in another way. Would you have made a different choice? I'm interested in knowing. I'm not a CSS guru, and I'm still learning. Does Gilles have a valid argument, here? Thanks, Chris Hi Chris, I agree that some things are harder to achieve with CSS, nevertheless I would have done it differently, with a pure CSS layout. It is doable. Unfortunatly I hadn't the time for that, when Gilles asked me for some help. But please don't blame me :-) Table layout has another disadvantage apart from bloated HTML. Because you can't restyle tables in IE using these makes that a more inflexible solution than you think in the first place. Maybe that's not so important here, because there's only one cell used. If you used two cells for example for a two column layout, you are stuck with that in IE in a print style sheet for instance. ___ jQuery mailing list discuss@jquery.com http://jquery.com/discuss/
Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!
Unfortunately both are unusable to a degree. While yours uses table for layout, which I avoid like the plague and thickbox has hardcoded javascript values for getting at data, both of you suffer from requiring control of the body tag. I often in design separate html and body from each other in CSS to achieve centering the body of content without additional divs. While I agree thickbox is a bit too specific for picture content, there are other plugins which do the same. What I'd prefer to see from plugin authors is more generic, generalized functionality that then can be combined. For example a disable plugin which makes a div fill the window over all of the other content. This could be used for Window and Thickbox. Then a more xhtml/css centric window plugin, and on top of that, picture based lightbox/thickbox plugins. And that was my $0.02. Thanks for your contributions. Gavin On Nov 25, 2006, at 1:24 PM, Webunity | Gilles van den Hoven wrote: And use my window plugin :) Why? Thickbox was made for images Window plugin was made for popups (dialogs) Just my $0.02 -- Gilles http://gilles.jquery.com/window/ ___ jQuery mailing list discuss@jquery.com http://jquery.com/discuss/ ___ jQuery mailing list discuss@jquery.com http://jquery.com/discuss/
Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!
On 11/25/06, Webunity | Gilles van den Hoven [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And use my window plugin :) I realize there's a smiley on the end, but this really /is/ a joke, right? Your plugin frankly isn't anywhere near ready for public use, as much as I wish it were. ___ jQuery mailing list discuss@jquery.com http://jquery.com/discuss/
Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!
Gilles, Congrats on getting this out my man. I know you've been working hard on trying to make the first cut simply awesome. Hopefully, you'll take some of the feedback given as a basis to further improve a great piece of work. I'm looking forward to using it myself and while some hard core CSS fans might not use it because of tables, I certainly have no problems with them and will gladly leverage your work in my application. I really appreciate your efforts. Rey Webunity | Gilles van den Hoven wrote: And use my window plugin :) Why? Thickbox was made for images Window plugin was made for popups (dialogs) Just my $0.02 -- Gilles http://gilles.jquery.com/window/ ___ jQuery mailing list discuss@jquery.com http://jquery.com/discuss/ ___ jQuery mailing list discuss@jquery.com http://jquery.com/discuss/
Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!
Su, if you're going to make a comment like that, at least have the courtesy to: 1) Cite the reasons that you feel his work isn't ready 2) Offer up solutions or examples that could help him out in improving his work Gilles is trying to provide functionality which really isn't available to the jQuery community and it would be better if everyone provided some sensible guidance instead of simply stating criticisms. Lets be helpful here guys. Rey... Su wrote: On 11/25/06, *Webunity | Gilles van den Hoven* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And use my window plugin :) I realize there's a smiley on the end, but this really /is/ a joke, right? Your plugin frankly isn't anywhere near ready for public use, as much as I wish it were. ___ jQuery mailing list discuss@jquery.com http://jquery.com/discuss/ ___ jQuery mailing list discuss@jquery.com http://jquery.com/discuss/
Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!
I agree. Thanks for saying that Rey. Cheers, Chris Rey Bango wrote: Su, if you're going to make a comment like that, at least have the courtesy to: 1) Cite the reasons that you feel his work isn't ready 2) Offer up solutions or examples that could help him out in improving his work Gilles is trying to provide functionality which really isn't available to the jQuery community and it would be better if everyone provided some sensible guidance instead of simply stating criticisms. Lets be helpful here guys. Rey... Su wrote: On 11/25/06, *Webunity | Gilles van den Hoven* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And use my window plugin :) I realize there's a smiley on the end, but this really /is/ a joke, right? Your plugin frankly isn't anywhere near ready for public use, as much as I wish it were. ___ jQuery mailing list discuss@jquery.com http://jquery.com/discuss/ ___ jQuery mailing list discuss@jquery.com http://jquery.com/discuss/ ___ jQuery mailing list discuss@jquery.com http://jquery.com/discuss/
Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!
Rey Bango schrieb: some hard core CSS fans might not use it because of tables To me, that has nothing to do with fanism, it's more about using things the way they are meant to and also, if it weren't a javascript window, that is not much accessible anyway, about accessibility. -- Klaus ___ jQuery mailing list discuss@jquery.com http://jquery.com/discuss/
Re: [jQuery] Stop using thickbox!
Hay Gilles, Thanks for your all your hard work. I too really appreciate your efforts. Kind regards Rob ___ jQuery mailing list discuss@jquery.com http://jquery.com/discuss/
