Re: Diversity Information from iCLA?
On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 1:32 AM Justin Mclean wrote: > Some projects collect data using google analytics... https://www.apache.org/foundation/policies/privacy.html has more info on that. -Bertrand - To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscr...@apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-h...@apache.org
Re: Diversity Information from iCLA?
On Thu, 16 May 2019 at 15:58, Matt Sicker wrote: > As Secretary, I would not like to use these legal documents for > anything other than their intended purpose, particularly due to PII. > Data should be given voluntarily for this. > > And has been noted, the data in these forms are likely not enough to > determine demographic data. Would it be possible to append some optional diversity questions to the ICLA? Doesn’t help with seeing where we are currently at, but could give interesting info on how we’re progressing, depending on the % who complete it. Niall > > On Thu, 16 May 2019 at 09:46, Joan Touzet wrote: > > > > I have a proposal that I'm going to run by the Board during our > > remaining face-to-face session today that may help with this. > > > > Please Stand By. :) > > > > -Joan > > > > On 2019-05-16 10:43 a.m., Ross Gardler wrote: > > > Seems to me like we have plenty of people who feel this is a good > idea, but not one we feel is appropriate. > > > > > > Get Outlook for Android<https://aka.ms/ghei36> > > > > > > ________ > > > From: Andrew Musselman > > > Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2019 7:33:40 AM > > > To: diversity@apache.org > > > Subject: Re: Diversity Information from iCLA? > > > > > > I get nervous when people talk about using data about me "for reasons" > if I > > > haven't agreed to it before submitting information. > > > > > > I suspect I'm not unusual in having that reaction; it could be risky > just > > > using info "about people" without asking for their consent. > > > > > > One rule of thumb for whether "using people's data" will be palatable > to > > > them is whether they'll perceive a benefit from it, either to > themselves or > > > to the community. > > > > > > Conducting a survey would give everyone a chance to explain the > motivation > > > and get buy-in, fwiw. > > > > > > On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 04:00 Patricia Shanahan wrote: > > > > > >> I would also be falsely guessed as American based on my ICLA > > >> information. Less confusing in my case than in some, because I am a > > >> native English speaker of European ancestry. > > >> > > >> On 5/16/2019 3:24 AM, Aizhamal Nurmamat kyzy wrote: > > >>> It would be helpful to do the analysis, but I do think we should be > > >> careful > > >>> on this analysis to jump into conclusions too quickly. > > >>> > > >>> I moved to the USA from another country, and US address is given in > the > > >>> ICLA. That is true for a good number of my friends who started > getting > > >>> involved with open source as well. Including or excluding people > like me > > >> in > > >>> the analysis would not really capture the diversity part. > > >>> > > >>> So I think doing the analysis is a great idea, but we should be > cautious > > >>> about the conclusions we derive from it. > > >>> > > >>> Best > > >>> Aizhamal > > >>> > > >>> On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 09:37 Patricia Shanahan > wrote: > > >>> > > >>>> On 5/15/2019 7:20 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: > > >>>>> Hi Awasum, > > >>>>> > > >>>>> On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 3:42 PM Awasum Yannick > > >>>> wrote: > > >>>>>> ...If we really wanted to know the country/country/geographical > > >>>> distribution > > >>>>>> of our committers, the most reliable way to do it is to look at > the > > >> iCLA > > >>>>>> files without displaying names of committers, just the > countries... > > >>>>> > > >>>>> I agree in principle but the lone committer from Failuristan, where > > >>>>> participation in Open Source can get you in trouble, would not be > > >>>>> happy to see that. > > >>>> > > >>>> For several years I was over 50, female, and a student in UCSD's > > >>>> Computer Science PhD program. > > >>>> > > >>>> Considered separately, age, gender, department, and intended degree > each > > >>>> seems harmless. Taken together, they uniquely identified me. > > >>>> > > >>
Re: Diversity Information from iCLA?
Hi, Some projects collect data using google analytics, that may be useful, It’s also opt in and compliant with various privacy and data laws, but this does shows users rather than ASF. Github also have a lot of stats about contributors (many of which are like to be PMC/committers in the Apache Group) this also optionally includes location. That may be a good start. There’s currently 2,634 people in the ASF GitHub organisation [1], that around a 1/3 of the total committers (currently 6901). A lot of stats can be inferred from version control history. I’ve performed analysis on on version control history to work out company structure, were teams are located, identify bus factors , hidden dependancies and were future bugs are likely to be in code and other stuff. (I gave a talk about it a few ApacheCons ago.) Thanks, Justin 1. https://github.com/orgs/apache/people - To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscr...@apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-h...@apache.org
Re: Diversity Information from iCLA?
As Secretary, I would not like to use these legal documents for anything other than their intended purpose, particularly due to PII. Data should be given voluntarily for this. And has been noted, the data in these forms are likely not enough to determine demographic data. On Thu, 16 May 2019 at 09:46, Joan Touzet wrote: > > I have a proposal that I'm going to run by the Board during our > remaining face-to-face session today that may help with this. > > Please Stand By. :) > > -Joan > > On 2019-05-16 10:43 a.m., Ross Gardler wrote: > > Seems to me like we have plenty of people who feel this is a good idea, but > > not one we feel is appropriate. > > > > Get Outlook for Android<https://aka.ms/ghei36> > > > > > > From: Andrew Musselman > > Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2019 7:33:40 AM > > To: diversity@apache.org > > Subject: Re: Diversity Information from iCLA? > > > > I get nervous when people talk about using data about me "for reasons" if I > > haven't agreed to it before submitting information. > > > > I suspect I'm not unusual in having that reaction; it could be risky just > > using info "about people" without asking for their consent. > > > > One rule of thumb for whether "using people's data" will be palatable to > > them is whether they'll perceive a benefit from it, either to themselves or > > to the community. > > > > Conducting a survey would give everyone a chance to explain the motivation > > and get buy-in, fwiw. > > > > On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 04:00 Patricia Shanahan wrote: > > > >> I would also be falsely guessed as American based on my ICLA > >> information. Less confusing in my case than in some, because I am a > >> native English speaker of European ancestry. > >> > >> On 5/16/2019 3:24 AM, Aizhamal Nurmamat kyzy wrote: > >>> It would be helpful to do the analysis, but I do think we should be > >> careful > >>> on this analysis to jump into conclusions too quickly. > >>> > >>> I moved to the USA from another country, and US address is given in the > >>> ICLA. That is true for a good number of my friends who started getting > >>> involved with open source as well. Including or excluding people like me > >> in > >>> the analysis would not really capture the diversity part. > >>> > >>> So I think doing the analysis is a great idea, but we should be cautious > >>> about the conclusions we derive from it. > >>> > >>> Best > >>> Aizhamal > >>> > >>> On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 09:37 Patricia Shanahan wrote: > >>> > >>>> On 5/15/2019 7:20 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: > >>>>> Hi Awasum, > >>>>> > >>>>> On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 3:42 PM Awasum Yannick > >>>> wrote: > >>>>>> ...If we really wanted to know the country/country/geographical > >>>> distribution > >>>>>> of our committers, the most reliable way to do it is to look at the > >> iCLA > >>>>>> files without displaying names of committers, just the countries... > >>>>> > >>>>> I agree in principle but the lone committer from Failuristan, where > >>>>> participation in Open Source can get you in trouble, would not be > >>>>> happy to see that. > >>>> > >>>> For several years I was over 50, female, and a student in UCSD's > >>>> Computer Science PhD program. > >>>> > >>>> Considered separately, age, gender, department, and intended degree each > >>>> seems harmless. Taken together, they uniquely identified me. > >>>> > >>>> I looked closely at surveys, and checked whether they had a minimum > >>>> group size policy that would protect my privacy. I would have been upset > >>>> to see information I had supplied for legal or administrative purposes > >>>> treated as research survey data without having the opportunity to decide > >>>> for myself whether or not to participate. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> --- > >>>> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. > >>>> https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.avg.comdata=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Cdc8ae9bb93a747f8a7b608d6da0b88f4%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636936140413029130sdata=j%2BZpteft9oJj9RQYu6izTIAMKAfmsNmeUOf5rVx6FCA%3Dreserved=0 > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> - > >>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscr...@apache.org > >>>> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-h...@apache.org > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >> > >> - > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscr...@apache.org > >> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-h...@apache.org > >> > >> > > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscr...@apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-h...@apache.org > -- Matt Sicker - To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscr...@apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-h...@apache.org
Re: Diversity Information from iCLA?
I have a proposal that I'm going to run by the Board during our remaining face-to-face session today that may help with this. Please Stand By. :) -Joan On 2019-05-16 10:43 a.m., Ross Gardler wrote: Seems to me like we have plenty of people who feel this is a good idea, but not one we feel is appropriate. Get Outlook for Android<https://aka.ms/ghei36> From: Andrew Musselman Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2019 7:33:40 AM To: diversity@apache.org Subject: Re: Diversity Information from iCLA? I get nervous when people talk about using data about me "for reasons" if I haven't agreed to it before submitting information. I suspect I'm not unusual in having that reaction; it could be risky just using info "about people" without asking for their consent. One rule of thumb for whether "using people's data" will be palatable to them is whether they'll perceive a benefit from it, either to themselves or to the community. Conducting a survey would give everyone a chance to explain the motivation and get buy-in, fwiw. On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 04:00 Patricia Shanahan wrote: I would also be falsely guessed as American based on my ICLA information. Less confusing in my case than in some, because I am a native English speaker of European ancestry. On 5/16/2019 3:24 AM, Aizhamal Nurmamat kyzy wrote: It would be helpful to do the analysis, but I do think we should be careful on this analysis to jump into conclusions too quickly. I moved to the USA from another country, and US address is given in the ICLA. That is true for a good number of my friends who started getting involved with open source as well. Including or excluding people like me in the analysis would not really capture the diversity part. So I think doing the analysis is a great idea, but we should be cautious about the conclusions we derive from it. Best Aizhamal On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 09:37 Patricia Shanahan wrote: On 5/15/2019 7:20 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: Hi Awasum, On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 3:42 PM Awasum Yannick wrote: ...If we really wanted to know the country/country/geographical distribution of our committers, the most reliable way to do it is to look at the iCLA files without displaying names of committers, just the countries... I agree in principle but the lone committer from Failuristan, where participation in Open Source can get you in trouble, would not be happy to see that. For several years I was over 50, female, and a student in UCSD's Computer Science PhD program. Considered separately, age, gender, department, and intended degree each seems harmless. Taken together, they uniquely identified me. I looked closely at surveys, and checked whether they had a minimum group size policy that would protect my privacy. I would have been upset to see information I had supplied for legal or administrative purposes treated as research survey data without having the opportunity to decide for myself whether or not to participate. --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.avg.comdata=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Cdc8ae9bb93a747f8a7b608d6da0b88f4%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636936140413029130sdata=j%2BZpteft9oJj9RQYu6izTIAMKAfmsNmeUOf5rVx6FCA%3Dreserved=0 - To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscr...@apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-h...@apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscr...@apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-h...@apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscr...@apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-h...@apache.org
Re: Diversity Information from iCLA?
Seems to me like we have plenty of people who feel this is a good idea, but not one we feel is appropriate. Get Outlook for Android<https://aka.ms/ghei36> From: Andrew Musselman Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2019 7:33:40 AM To: diversity@apache.org Subject: Re: Diversity Information from iCLA? I get nervous when people talk about using data about me "for reasons" if I haven't agreed to it before submitting information. I suspect I'm not unusual in having that reaction; it could be risky just using info "about people" without asking for their consent. One rule of thumb for whether "using people's data" will be palatable to them is whether they'll perceive a benefit from it, either to themselves or to the community. Conducting a survey would give everyone a chance to explain the motivation and get buy-in, fwiw. On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 04:00 Patricia Shanahan wrote: > I would also be falsely guessed as American based on my ICLA > information. Less confusing in my case than in some, because I am a > native English speaker of European ancestry. > > On 5/16/2019 3:24 AM, Aizhamal Nurmamat kyzy wrote: > > It would be helpful to do the analysis, but I do think we should be > careful > > on this analysis to jump into conclusions too quickly. > > > > I moved to the USA from another country, and US address is given in the > > ICLA. That is true for a good number of my friends who started getting > > involved with open source as well. Including or excluding people like me > in > > the analysis would not really capture the diversity part. > > > > So I think doing the analysis is a great idea, but we should be cautious > > about the conclusions we derive from it. > > > > Best > > Aizhamal > > > > On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 09:37 Patricia Shanahan wrote: > > > >> On 5/15/2019 7:20 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: > >>> Hi Awasum, > >>> > >>> On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 3:42 PM Awasum Yannick > >> wrote: > >>>> ...If we really wanted to know the country/country/geographical > >> distribution > >>>> of our committers, the most reliable way to do it is to look at the > iCLA > >>>> files without displaying names of committers, just the countries... > >>> > >>> I agree in principle but the lone committer from Failuristan, where > >>> participation in Open Source can get you in trouble, would not be > >>> happy to see that. > >> > >> For several years I was over 50, female, and a student in UCSD's > >> Computer Science PhD program. > >> > >> Considered separately, age, gender, department, and intended degree each > >> seems harmless. Taken together, they uniquely identified me. > >> > >> I looked closely at surveys, and checked whether they had a minimum > >> group size policy that would protect my privacy. I would have been upset > >> to see information I had supplied for legal or administrative purposes > >> treated as research survey data without having the opportunity to decide > >> for myself whether or not to participate. > >> > >> > >> --- > >> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. > >> https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.avg.comdata=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Cdc8ae9bb93a747f8a7b608d6da0b88f4%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636936140413029130sdata=j%2BZpteft9oJj9RQYu6izTIAMKAfmsNmeUOf5rVx6FCA%3Dreserved=0 > >> > >> > >> - > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscr...@apache.org > >> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-h...@apache.org > >> > >> > > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscr...@apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-h...@apache.org > >
Re: Diversity Information from iCLA?
I get nervous when people talk about using data about me "for reasons" if I haven't agreed to it before submitting information. I suspect I'm not unusual in having that reaction; it could be risky just using info "about people" without asking for their consent. One rule of thumb for whether "using people's data" will be palatable to them is whether they'll perceive a benefit from it, either to themselves or to the community. Conducting a survey would give everyone a chance to explain the motivation and get buy-in, fwiw. On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 04:00 Patricia Shanahan wrote: > I would also be falsely guessed as American based on my ICLA > information. Less confusing in my case than in some, because I am a > native English speaker of European ancestry. > > On 5/16/2019 3:24 AM, Aizhamal Nurmamat kyzy wrote: > > It would be helpful to do the analysis, but I do think we should be > careful > > on this analysis to jump into conclusions too quickly. > > > > I moved to the USA from another country, and US address is given in the > > ICLA. That is true for a good number of my friends who started getting > > involved with open source as well. Including or excluding people like me > in > > the analysis would not really capture the diversity part. > > > > So I think doing the analysis is a great idea, but we should be cautious > > about the conclusions we derive from it. > > > > Best > > Aizhamal > > > > On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 09:37 Patricia Shanahan wrote: > > > >> On 5/15/2019 7:20 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: > >>> Hi Awasum, > >>> > >>> On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 3:42 PM Awasum Yannick > >> wrote: > ...If we really wanted to know the country/country/geographical > >> distribution > of our committers, the most reliable way to do it is to look at the > iCLA > files without displaying names of committers, just the countries... > >>> > >>> I agree in principle but the lone committer from Failuristan, where > >>> participation in Open Source can get you in trouble, would not be > >>> happy to see that. > >> > >> For several years I was over 50, female, and a student in UCSD's > >> Computer Science PhD program. > >> > >> Considered separately, age, gender, department, and intended degree each > >> seems harmless. Taken together, they uniquely identified me. > >> > >> I looked closely at surveys, and checked whether they had a minimum > >> group size policy that would protect my privacy. I would have been upset > >> to see information I had supplied for legal or administrative purposes > >> treated as research survey data without having the opportunity to decide > >> for myself whether or not to participate. > >> > >> > >> --- > >> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. > >> https://www.avg.com > >> > >> > >> - > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscr...@apache.org > >> For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-h...@apache.org > >> > >> > > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscr...@apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-h...@apache.org > >
Re: Diversity Information from iCLA?
I would also be falsely guessed as American based on my ICLA information. Less confusing in my case than in some, because I am a native English speaker of European ancestry. On 5/16/2019 3:24 AM, Aizhamal Nurmamat kyzy wrote: It would be helpful to do the analysis, but I do think we should be careful on this analysis to jump into conclusions too quickly. I moved to the USA from another country, and US address is given in the ICLA. That is true for a good number of my friends who started getting involved with open source as well. Including or excluding people like me in the analysis would not really capture the diversity part. So I think doing the analysis is a great idea, but we should be cautious about the conclusions we derive from it. Best Aizhamal On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 09:37 Patricia Shanahan wrote: On 5/15/2019 7:20 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: Hi Awasum, On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 3:42 PM Awasum Yannick wrote: ...If we really wanted to know the country/country/geographical distribution of our committers, the most reliable way to do it is to look at the iCLA files without displaying names of committers, just the countries... I agree in principle but the lone committer from Failuristan, where participation in Open Source can get you in trouble, would not be happy to see that. For several years I was over 50, female, and a student in UCSD's Computer Science PhD program. Considered separately, age, gender, department, and intended degree each seems harmless. Taken together, they uniquely identified me. I looked closely at surveys, and checked whether they had a minimum group size policy that would protect my privacy. I would have been upset to see information I had supplied for legal or administrative purposes treated as research survey data without having the opportunity to decide for myself whether or not to participate. --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscr...@apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-h...@apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscr...@apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-h...@apache.org
Re: Diversity Information from iCLA?
It would be helpful to do the analysis, but I do think we should be careful on this analysis to jump into conclusions too quickly. I moved to the USA from another country, and US address is given in the ICLA. That is true for a good number of my friends who started getting involved with open source as well. Including or excluding people like me in the analysis would not really capture the diversity part. So I think doing the analysis is a great idea, but we should be cautious about the conclusions we derive from it. Best Aizhamal On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 09:37 Patricia Shanahan wrote: > On 5/15/2019 7:20 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: > > Hi Awasum, > > > > On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 3:42 PM Awasum Yannick > wrote: > >> ...If we really wanted to know the country/country/geographical > distribution > >> of our committers, the most reliable way to do it is to look at the iCLA > >> files without displaying names of committers, just the countries... > > > > I agree in principle but the lone committer from Failuristan, where > > participation in Open Source can get you in trouble, would not be > > happy to see that. > > For several years I was over 50, female, and a student in UCSD's > Computer Science PhD program. > > Considered separately, age, gender, department, and intended degree each > seems harmless. Taken together, they uniquely identified me. > > I looked closely at surveys, and checked whether they had a minimum > group size policy that would protect my privacy. I would have been upset > to see information I had supplied for legal or administrative purposes > treated as research survey data without having the opportunity to decide > for myself whether or not to participate. > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. > https://www.avg.com > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscr...@apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-h...@apache.org > >
Re: Diversity Information from iCLA?
On 5/15/2019 7:20 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: Hi Awasum, On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 3:42 PM Awasum Yannick wrote: ...If we really wanted to know the country/country/geographical distribution of our committers, the most reliable way to do it is to look at the iCLA files without displaying names of committers, just the countries... I agree in principle but the lone committer from Failuristan, where participation in Open Source can get you in trouble, would not be happy to see that. For several years I was over 50, female, and a student in UCSD's Computer Science PhD program. Considered separately, age, gender, department, and intended degree each seems harmless. Taken together, they uniquely identified me. I looked closely at surveys, and checked whether they had a minimum group size policy that would protect my privacy. I would have been upset to see information I had supplied for legal or administrative purposes treated as research survey data without having the opportunity to decide for myself whether or not to participate. --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscr...@apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-h...@apache.org
Re: Diversity Information from iCLA?
I consider the country as recorded in ICLA. As sensitive. The information s not gathered for that purpose. In some parts of the world this is law. Besides its not accurate. Many people don't live in their country of birth or citizenship and thus country of residence is not representative of anything other than where they live. Get Outlook for Android<https://aka.ms/ghei36> From: Awasum Yannick Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2019 7:31:05 AM To: diversity@apache.org Subject: Re: Diversity Information from iCLA? Hi Joan, On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 3:06 PM Joan Touzet wrote: > Awasum, > > On 2019-05-15 9:42 a.m., Awasum Yannick wrote: > > > If we really wanted to know the country/country/geographical distribution > > of our committers, the most reliable way to do it is to look at the iCLA > > files without displaying names of committers, just the countries and we > > will know for sure how geographically diverse we are. This will answer > some > > key questions like "is there a diversity problem?" and comments like > "Show > > me the facts supporting our lack of diversity" will be dealt with. Even > if > > its just one aspect of diversity(geographical). > > As signed documents with legal significance to the Foundation, the iCLAs > have legal protections that would likely prevent such usage. Signing > such documents usually makes them protected - I am not a lawyer, and > would defer to legal-discuss@ / the legal JIRA instance if you really > want to pursue this option. > > Maybe the real question should be: Is the country information important enough as a way to measure diversity? Our names and emails and other info are already displayed in Whimsy. Is the country info that sensitive? Please educate me.
Re: Diversity Information from iCLA?
Hi Bertrand, On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 3:20 PM Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: > Hi Awasum, > > On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 3:42 PM Awasum Yannick wrote: > > ...If we really wanted to know the country/country/geographical > distribution > > of our committers, the most reliable way to do it is to look at the iCLA > > files without displaying names of committers, just the countries... > > I agree in principle but the lone committer from Failuristan, where > participation in Open Source can get you in trouble, would not be > happy to see that. > > -Bertrand (taking a somewhat extreme example - we have to be careful > with these things) > > Yeah, I get your point. Maybe we could exclude all US embargoed or Open Source non friendly countries from the list if we decide to pursue this.
Re: Diversity Information from iCLA?
Hi Joan, On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 3:06 PM Joan Touzet wrote: > Awasum, > > On 2019-05-15 9:42 a.m., Awasum Yannick wrote: > > > If we really wanted to know the country/country/geographical distribution > > of our committers, the most reliable way to do it is to look at the iCLA > > files without displaying names of committers, just the countries and we > > will know for sure how geographically diverse we are. This will answer > some > > key questions like "is there a diversity problem?" and comments like > "Show > > me the facts supporting our lack of diversity" will be dealt with. Even > if > > its just one aspect of diversity(geographical). > > As signed documents with legal significance to the Foundation, the iCLAs > have legal protections that would likely prevent such usage. Signing > such documents usually makes them protected - I am not a lawyer, and > would defer to legal-discuss@ / the legal JIRA instance if you really > want to pursue this option. > > Maybe the real question should be: Is the country information important enough as a way to measure diversity? Our names and emails and other info are already displayed in Whimsy. Is the country info that sensitive? Please educate me.
Re: Diversity Information from iCLA?
Hi Awasum, On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 3:42 PM Awasum Yannick wrote: > ...If we really wanted to know the country/country/geographical distribution > of our committers, the most reliable way to do it is to look at the iCLA > files without displaying names of committers, just the countries... I agree in principle but the lone committer from Failuristan, where participation in Open Source can get you in trouble, would not be happy to see that. -Bertrand (taking a somewhat extreme example - we have to be careful with these things) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscr...@apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-h...@apache.org
Re: Diversity Information from iCLA?
Awasum, On 2019-05-15 9:42 a.m., Awasum Yannick wrote: If we really wanted to know the country/country/geographical distribution of our committers, the most reliable way to do it is to look at the iCLA files without displaying names of committers, just the countries and we will know for sure how geographically diverse we are. This will answer some key questions like "is there a diversity problem?" and comments like "Show me the facts supporting our lack of diversity" will be dealt with. Even if its just one aspect of diversity(geographical). As signed documents with legal significance to the Foundation, the iCLAs have legal protections that would likely prevent such usage. Signing such documents usually makes them protected - I am not a lawyer, and would defer to legal-discuss@ / the legal JIRA instance if you really want to pursue this option. -Joan - To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscr...@apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-h...@apache.org
Re: Diversity Information from iCLA?
I don't see an issue with sharing aggregate data. Every ASF member has access to the raw data, but extracting it will be labor intensive. - Sam Ruby On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 8:42 AM Awasum Yannick wrote: > > Hi Bertrand, > > If we really wanted to know the country/country/geographical distribution > of our committers, the most reliable way to do it is to look at the iCLA > files without displaying names of committers, just the countries and we > will know for sure how geographically diverse we are. This will answer some > key questions like "is there a diversity problem?" and comments like "Show > me the facts supporting our lack of diversity" will be dealt with. Even if > its just one aspect of diversity(geographical). > > Look at a project like https://whimsy.apache.org/, they collect all these > info and display them for all of us to consume. Can we not collect country > information from iCLAs without showing names of people? Just the countries > and display by continent. > I went looking and found these > https://svn.apache.org/repos/private/foundation/board and > https://svn.apache.org/repos/private/documents/iclas by analyzing the > Whimsy source code and checking their data sources. > > I dont have permission to view the above files but can someone confirm if > these files contain country information which we could anonymously use to > prove if we have geographical diversity problem or not? > > The last survey had a response rate of 13%. Do you think that good enough > for making decisions? We need to look for other ways to calculate our > diversity numbers. > > Thanks. > Awasum > > On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 10:26 AM Bertrand Delacretaz > wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 11:17 AM Awasum Yannick wrote: > > > ...I was wondering if we could get country information for all > > Committers, > > > PMCs, Directors and Members and see if we can even draw some facts on > > > geographical distribution of our volunteers?... > > > > There's http://community.zones.apache.org/map.html but it only > > includes people "who have chosen to publically share their location in > > their FOAF files". > > > > You cannot use that information without people's consent, so scraping > > iCLAs is not acceptable. > > > > -Bertrand > > > > - > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscr...@apache.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-h...@apache.org > > > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscr...@apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-h...@apache.org
Re: Diversity Information from iCLA?
Hi Bertrand, If we really wanted to know the country/country/geographical distribution of our committers, the most reliable way to do it is to look at the iCLA files without displaying names of committers, just the countries and we will know for sure how geographically diverse we are. This will answer some key questions like "is there a diversity problem?" and comments like "Show me the facts supporting our lack of diversity" will be dealt with. Even if its just one aspect of diversity(geographical). Look at a project like https://whimsy.apache.org/, they collect all these info and display them for all of us to consume. Can we not collect country information from iCLAs without showing names of people? Just the countries and display by continent. I went looking and found these https://svn.apache.org/repos/private/foundation/board and https://svn.apache.org/repos/private/documents/iclas by analyzing the Whimsy source code and checking their data sources. I dont have permission to view the above files but can someone confirm if these files contain country information which we could anonymously use to prove if we have geographical diversity problem or not? The last survey had a response rate of 13%. Do you think that good enough for making decisions? We need to look for other ways to calculate our diversity numbers. Thanks. Awasum On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 10:26 AM Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: > Hi, > > On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 11:17 AM Awasum Yannick wrote: > > ...I was wondering if we could get country information for all > Committers, > > PMCs, Directors and Members and see if we can even draw some facts on > > geographical distribution of our volunteers?... > > There's http://community.zones.apache.org/map.html but it only > includes people "who have chosen to publically share their location in > their FOAF files". > > You cannot use that information without people's consent, so scraping > iCLAs is not acceptable. > > -Bertrand > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscr...@apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-h...@apache.org > >
Re: Diversity Information from iCLA?
Hi, On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 11:17 AM Awasum Yannick wrote: > ...I was wondering if we could get country information for all Committers, > PMCs, Directors and Members and see if we can even draw some facts on > geographical distribution of our volunteers?... There's http://community.zones.apache.org/map.html but it only includes people "who have chosen to publically share their location in their FOAF files". You cannot use that information without people's consent, so scraping iCLAs is not acceptable. -Bertrand - To unsubscribe, e-mail: diversity-unsubscr...@apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: diversity-h...@apache.org
