Re: How to use the django-users mailing list properly and doing your homework..

[Cal Leeming [Simplicity Media Ltd]]

On 8 Jul 2011 01:51, "Kenneth Gonsalves"  wrote:
>
> On Thu, 2011-07-07 at 10:46 -0400, Shawn Milochik wrote:
> > > mentioned.  With a threaded mail client, I use Mutt, they're much
> > > easier to keep up with than anything web based.
> > >
> >
> > +1
> >
> > I prefer this mailing list to anything else. It's far superior to IRC
> > and a forum site (such as Stack Overflow) in my opinion, because I
> > don't have to "go looking for it."
> >
> > If I even filter a mailing list so it doesn't go into my inbox I end
> > up falling behind and deleting all the messages unread. The only way I
> > actively participate in this list is because it hits my inbox.
>
> +1

+1 also, this is exactly what i end up doing too.

> --
> regards
> KG
> http://lawgon.livejournal.com
> Coimbatore LUG rox
> http://ilugcbe.techstud.org/
>
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Re: How to use the django-users mailing list properly and doing your homework..

[Kenneth Gonsalves]

On Thu, 2011-07-07 at 10:46 -0400, Shawn Milochik wrote:
> > mentioned.  With a threaded mail client, I use Mutt, they're much
> > easier to keep up with than anything web based.
> >
> 
> +1
> 
> I prefer this mailing list to anything else. It's far superior to IRC
> and a forum site (such as Stack Overflow) in my opinion, because I
> don't have to "go looking for it."
> 
> If I even filter a mailing list so it doesn't go into my inbox I end
> up falling behind and deleting all the messages unread. The only way I
> actively participate in this list is because it hits my inbox. 

+1
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KG
http://lawgon.livejournal.com
Coimbatore LUG rox
http://ilugcbe.techstud.org/

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Re: How to use the django-users mailing list properly and doing your homework..

[Cal Leeming [Simplicity Media Ltd]]

To be honest, there is no reason why someone cant make something which they
believe will be useful, and use the django-users archive as db filler. If it
doesnt catch on in the community, at least you'd learn a bunch of new stuff
and get the opportunity to try out new things outside of a typical
production/work environment.

The other thing to consider, is how far should we go to making info easily
accessible. I personally feel that being a coder isnt just about writing
code ,its about solving problems, self learning, the thrill of tackling
problems.. and Google+django docs + django snippets gives me all the answers
i could ever need.. do we really need to make it easier?? Takes away some of
the fun :X (i have found SO very helpful before - but i always enter from
google ,i never search directly in SO)

On 7 Jul 2011 18:28, "Micky Hulse"  wrote:

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Re: How to use the django-users mailing list properly and doing your homework..

[Cal Leeming]

To be honest, there is no reason why someone cant make something which they
believe will be useful, and use the django-users archive as db filler. If it
doesnt catch on in the community, at least you'd learn a bunch of new stuff
and get the opportunity to try out new things outside of a typical
production/work environment.

The other thing to consider, is how far should we go to making info easily
accessible. I personally feel that being a coder isnt just about writing
code ,its about solving problems, self learning, the thrill of tackling
problems.. and Google+django docs + django snippets gives me all the answers
i could ever need.. do we really need to make it easier?? Takes away some of
the fun :X (i have found SO very helpful before - but i always enter from
google ,i never search directly in SO)
On 7 Jul 2011 18:28, "Micky Hulse"  wrote:

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Re: How to use the django-users mailing list properly and doing your homework..

[Micky Hulse]

I personally have a dedicated gMail account for lists, which forwards
everything to my main gMail account, and then all list e-mails get
filtered into a "lists" label/folder.



Here's some (random) thoughts from a (self proclaimed) listserv
veteran and Django/Python noob:

1.

Am I the only one that likes to read list e-mails via his smartphone?

Does SO have an app?

I love SO when I am using my desktop, but I don't think I have ever
visited that site on my iPhone. Granted, all my coding is done on my
desktop, so surfing/searching the net is easier, but still... Mail.app
is just easy. :)

2.

I work at a company where my computer monitor is visible to anyone
walking by... Having my e-mail client open (Gmail) is much less risky
than having to constantly surf SO (or other forums) to keep updated.

3.

Related to above, having to dedicate yet another browser "app" tab to
another site does not sound optimal.

4.

Folks interested in improving existing Django resources might contact
Charles Leifer:

http://charlesleifer.com/blog/django-snippets-site-improvements-what-would-you-see/

Looks like he is open to suggestions.

5.

I think the former jQuery Google group is a prime example of what I
would /not/ like to see:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/jquery-en

They moved the Google group to a dedicated forum:

http://forum.jquery.com/

Personally, I am not a fan of the jQuery forum software; if I have to
use a forum, I much prefer the standard vBulletin software.

What frustrated me most about the jQuery move is that they turned off
the Google Group list... I just don't visit the jQuery forum unless I
have an urgent question. I hate to admit it, but I never hang out to
help.

It makes me wonder how many folks left the jQuery scene because of the
move to forums?

6.

As I said above, I think SO is great, but is it just me, or has anyone
else found the barrier to participation an annoyance?

I can't count the number of times I could have "chipped in" to help
out, but because I did not have a "reputation" or "points", I moved on
with my life without sharing an answer.

I  personally don't have time to worry about gaining points and/or
voting for things (see #2 above).

.

For me, I think the moral of the story is this: The more resources the
merrier



Thanks for listening.

Micky

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Re: How to use the django-users mailing list properly and doing your homework..

[Venkatraman S]

On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 8:42 PM, Andre Terra  wrote:

> So basically, if SO emailed you new questions tagged as 'django' and
> your replies were posted as answers, you would be okay?
>


Guys,

SO, mailing lists, IRC etc are different channels for communication; and no
ONE channel alone can be useful and survive.
Every channel has its own etiquette and is useful based on the situation the
dev is in.

What the django community lacks is a good knowledge document base, and i am
trying to target this problem *alone*.
This knowledge base can have links to other data sources too - as long as it
presents it right when searched.

On IRC, we lack a good bot. Anyone wants to contribute in here?

-V

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Re: How to use the django-users mailing list properly and doing your homework..

[Shawn Milochik]

On 07/07/2011 11:21 AM, Kevin Monceaux wrote:

On Thu, Jul 07, 2011 at 10:46:47AM -0400, Shawn Milochik wrote:


If I even filter a mailing list so it doesn't go into my inbox I end
up falling behind and deleting all the messages unread. The only way I
actively participate in this list is because it hits my inbox.

I'm on too many mailing lists to do that.  Mail from each list I'm on
gets sorted into a separate inbox.  I don't follow all of the lists
I'm on regularly, but I like to have the local list archives at my
fingertips if needed.  For unread messages Mutt distinguishes between
old messages that were in the mailbox the last time it was accessed
and new messages that were added after the mailbox was last accessed.
It's easy to skim through and zero in on new topics that are of
interest, and/or old threads that I've been following.





I'm on too many mailing lists for that also, but I also don't care 
enough about most of them to want to stay current.


The django-users list is the only one (with notable volume) that goes 
into the inbox of my primary e-mail account. When I'm having a really 
busy period at work or something I'll sometimes filter it for a while. 
You can tell when I'm not filtering because I tend to reply a fair amount.



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Re: How to use the django-users mailing list properly and doing your homework..

[Kevin Monceaux]

On Thu, Jul 07, 2011 at 10:46:47AM -0400, Shawn Milochik wrote:

> If I even filter a mailing list so it doesn't go into my inbox I end
> up falling behind and deleting all the messages unread. The only way I
> actively participate in this list is because it hits my inbox.

I'm on too many mailing lists to do that.  Mail from each list I'm on
gets sorted into a separate inbox.  I don't follow all of the lists
I'm on regularly, but I like to have the local list archives at my
fingertips if needed.  For unread messages Mutt distinguishes between
old messages that were in the mailbox the last time it was accessed
and new messages that were added after the mailbox was last accessed.
It's easy to skim through and zero in on new topics that are of
interest, and/or old threads that I've been following.



-- 

Kevin
http://www.RawFedDogs.net
http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org
Bruceville, TX

What's the definition of a legacy system?  One that works! 
Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum.

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Re: How to use the django-users mailing list properly and doing your homework..

[Shawn Milochik]

On 07/07/2011 11:12 AM, Andre Terra wrote:

So basically, if SO emailed you new questions tagged as 'django' and
your replies were posted as answers, you would be okay?

Cheers,
André


I think my answer to that is 'yes.' It might be even better that way, 
because of the ability to vote questions up and down and a much better 
search system than Google Groups. Also, the ability to paste in 
formatted code recently discussed is built in.



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Re: How to use the django-users mailing list properly and doing your homework..

[Andre Terra]

So basically, if SO emailed you new questions tagged as 'django' and
your replies were posted as answers, you would be okay?

Cheers,
André

On 7/7/11, Shawn Milochik  wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 10:41 AM, Kevin Monceaux 
> wrote:
>> On Wed, Jul 06, 2011 at 08:38:42PM -0300, Andre Terra wrote:
>>
>>> If we could move the questions to a specific site, everyone would
>>> benefit.
>>
>> Not everyone.  I much prefer mailing lists to any of the other options
>> mentioned.  With a threaded mail client, I use Mutt, they're much
>> easier to keep up with than anything web based.
>>
>
> +1
>
> I prefer this mailing list to anything else. It's far superior to IRC
> and a forum site (such as Stack Overflow) in my opinion, because I
> don't have to "go looking for it."
>
> If I even filter a mailing list so it doesn't go into my inbox I end
> up falling behind and deleting all the messages unread. The only way I
> actively participate in this list is because it hits my inbox.
>
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>
>

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Re: How to use the django-users mailing list properly and doing your homework..

[Shawn Milochik]

On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 10:41 AM, Kevin Monceaux  wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 06, 2011 at 08:38:42PM -0300, Andre Terra wrote:
>
>> If we could move the questions to a specific site, everyone would
>> benefit.
>
> Not everyone.  I much prefer mailing lists to any of the other options
> mentioned.  With a threaded mail client, I use Mutt, they're much
> easier to keep up with than anything web based.
>

+1

I prefer this mailing list to anything else. It's far superior to IRC
and a forum site (such as Stack Overflow) in my opinion, because I
don't have to "go looking for it."

If I even filter a mailing list so it doesn't go into my inbox I end
up falling behind and deleting all the messages unread. The only way I
actively participate in this list is because it hits my inbox.

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Re: How to use the django-users mailing list properly and doing your homework..

[Kevin Monceaux]

On Wed, Jul 06, 2011 at 08:38:42PM -0300, Andre Terra wrote:

> If we could move the questions to a specific site, everyone would
> benefit.

Not everyone.  I much prefer mailing lists to any of the other options
mentioned.  With a threaded mail client, I use Mutt, they're much
easier to keep up with than anything web based.  


-- 

Kevin
http://www.RawFedDogs.net
http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org
Bruceville, TX

What's the definition of a legacy system?  One that works! 
Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum.

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Re: How to use the django-users mailing list properly and doing your homework..

[CareerDhaba tech]

Stack Overflow: http://stackoverflow.com


On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 9:00 AM, Kenneth Gonsalves wrote:

> On Thu, 2011-07-07 at 00:10 +0100, Cal Leeming [Simplicity Media Ltd]
> wrote:
> > I'm going to ask a really stupid question...
> >
> > What's "SO"?
>
> I was just going to ask that.
> --
> regards
> KG
> http://lawgon.livejournal.com
> Coimbatore LUG rox
> http://ilugcbe.techstud.org/
>
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>
>

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Re: How to use the django-users mailing list properly and doing your homework..

[Kenneth Gonsalves]

On Thu, 2011-07-07 at 00:10 +0100, Cal Leeming [Simplicity Media Ltd]
wrote:
> I'm going to ask a really stupid question...
> 
> What's "SO"? 

I was just going to ask that.
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Re: How to use the django-users mailing list properly and doing your homework..

[Kenneth Gonsalves]

On Wed, 2011-07-06 at 19:55 -0300, Andre Terra wrote:
> IRC is too outdated

actually it is highly effective - cannot count the number of deadlines I
would have missed but for IRC.
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Re: How to use the django-users mailing list properly and doing your homework..

[Venkatraman S]

On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 8:17 AM, Venkatraman S  wrote:

> I would recommend having a repository of django articles which can be
> searched upon easily with good features added to it (for eg facets etc) -
> ideally if this is hosted at djangoproject - then it would be ideal.
>

And IRC has a bot which looks this up when needed, hence saving some time.

-V

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Re: How to use the django-users mailing list properly and doing your homework..

[Andy McKay]

On 2011-07-06, at 3:55 PM, Andre Terra wrote:
> This is precisely the problem, imo. IRC is too outdated, and the folks

IRC may be outdated yet it persists as a completely awesome chat tool used by 
tons of developers every day. No disrespect to Convore or Stack Overflow, but 
one day when they are longer around - IRC will still be there :)

The #django IRC channel and all the other channels for all the other projects 
(celery, gevent, postgres, mysql etc) can be great. I'd recommend them as a 
great help channel to everyone.
--
  Andy McKay
  a...@clearwind.ca
  twitter: @andymckay
 

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Re: How to use the django-users mailing list properly and doing your homework..

[Venkatraman S]

On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 6:17 AM, Cal Leeming [Simplicity Media Ltd] <
cal.leem...@simplicitymedialtd.co.uk> wrote:

> Tbh, it would be easy enough to create a web front end, similar to SO,
> which uses django-users archive as a backend. Sure it'd be read only to
> begin with.. and im not sure how you'd handle quoted / inline messages.. but
> food for thought at least.
>
Btw, askbot is a kindof-SO clone - built on django.

I think IRC and mailing list are a good combination with the added goodness
of SO. I use IRC for quick questions - especially when i am half asleep and
need a 'third' eye to look at the code (i.e, when i need a nudge). IRC can
*never* be forgotten - it is the heart, brain and soul of the developer
community. There are so many 'newbie' questions, but IRC still survives. I
have asked some of the most stupid questions on IRC (for eg, last week when
i was half asleep and a form was not getting submitted right - i wanted it
to Post but it was doing a Get - i had changed 'method' to 'name' by
mistake! harakiri!)

Mailing list is *only* when i have very specific questions - for eg. the
thread on 'complex query...' thats active now. But, i feel the mailing list
*sometimes* does not help immediately - and also lacks the cohesiveness that
would expected. For eg. we see quiet a lot of reposts and newbie every week
- we have to live with this. People should seearch the archives or a quick
google should always help, but you cannot always educate everyone.

Generally or most of the time , people are busy, and using 'just one'
channel of communication doesn't always help. I generally follow this
workflow for asking Qs ...
Try -> Google  -> IRC -> contact the author of the app(if present and
active) -> django-users -> Try more else try a different solution.

For eg. i recently encountered a problem wherein endless_pagination didnt
seem to work with multiple paginators on the same page.
I tried,  then googled(no posts on this) also docs didnt explain it right,
contacted jezdez and author(frank), frank responded with a solution which
was not present in the doc, created a quick
examplefor
posterity in github (need to follow up with a blogpost); and now since
the solution is present - this needs to be suitably documented in the docs
too. So  now, if you see - we have 2 places of documentation : blog(which i
am yet to write) and the original docs. App specific information is best
preserved in the docs; and any other tips or tricks should ideally be placed
as a knowledge repository.

I would recommend having a repository of django articles which can be
searched upon easily with good features added to it (for eg facets etc) -
ideally if this is hosted at djangoproject - then it would be ideal.

-V

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Re: How to use the django-users mailing list properly and doing your homework..

[Cal Leeming [Simplicity Media Ltd]]

Tbh, it would be easy enough to create a web front end, similar to SO, which
uses django-users archive as a backend. Sure it'd be read only to begin
with.. and im not sure how you'd handle quoted / inline messages.. but food
for thought at least.
On 7 Jul 2011 00:38, "Andre Terra"  wrote:
> I'm willing to bet 80% of the emails are newbie questions, and the
> remaining 20% are group communication and collaboration, specially
> considering how the more experienced developers are pretty much only
> on convore.com these days.
>
> If we could move the questions to a specific site, everyone would
> benefit. If we could bring in the veteran devs, even better.
>
>
> Cheers,
> Andre
>
> On 7/6/11, Javier Guerra Giraldez  wrote:
>> On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 5:55 PM, Andre Terra  wrote:
>>> Maybe it's just a matter of endorsing SO more adamantly. When compared
>>> to the other solution, none is as flexible and complete.
>>
>> newbie questions is one thing, collaboration is another, group
>> communications is another one.
>>
>> for the first one, SO is really good. for the other two, i haven't
>> seen anything better than a mailing list.
>>
>> --
>> Javier
>>
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>>
>>
>
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Re: How to use the django-users mailing list properly and doing your homework..

[Andre Terra]

I'm willing to bet 80% of the emails are newbie questions, and the
remaining 20% are group communication and collaboration, specially
considering how the more experienced developers are pretty much only
on convore.com these days.

If we could move the questions to a specific site, everyone would
benefit. If we could bring in the veteran devs, even better.


Cheers,
Andre

On 7/6/11, Javier Guerra Giraldez  wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 5:55 PM, Andre Terra  wrote:
>> Maybe it's just a matter of endorsing SO more adamantly. When compared
>> to the other solution, none is as flexible and complete.
>
> newbie questions is one thing, collaboration is another, group
> communications is another one.
>
> for the first one, SO is really good.  for the other two, i haven't
> seen anything better than a mailing list.
>
> --
> Javier
>
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Re: How to use the django-users mailing list properly and doing your homework..

[Cal Leeming [Simplicity Media Ltd]]

Ahh, makes sense.

Stack Overflow specifically for Django would be kick ass.

If the core web team aren't happy about hosting one, there is no
reason why the community can't fork one off, and have it endorsed on
the wiki and in the mailing list replies??


On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 12:12 AM, Petite Abeille
 wrote:
>
> On Jul 7, 2011, at 1:10 AM, Cal Leeming [Simplicity Media Ltd] wrote:
>
>> I'm going to ask a really stupid question...
>>
>> What's "SO"?
>
> WIld guess... stack overflow?
>
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Re: How to use the django-users mailing list properly and doing your homework..

[Petite Abeille]

On Jul 7, 2011, at 1:10 AM, Cal Leeming [Simplicity Media Ltd] wrote:

> I'm going to ask a really stupid question...
> 
> What's "SO"?

WIld guess... stack overflow?

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Re: How to use the django-users mailing list properly and doing your homework..

[Cal Leeming [Simplicity Media Ltd]]

I'm going to ask a really stupid question...

What's "SO"?

On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 11:55 PM, Andre Terra  wrote:
> Don't forget SO!
>
> This is precisely the problem, imo. IRC is too outdated, and the folks
> who built convore seem to agree there is room for improvement. And the
> number of emails on this list is unmanageable without a specialized
> tool, not to mention the fact that we answer the same questions
> repeatedly.
>
> Maybe it's just a matter of endorsing SO more adamantly. When compared
> to the other solution, none is as flexible and complete. Couple that
> with an effort to improve our wiki and questions on how to lay out
> files for a project would be rare.
>
> But what do I know, I haven't given any serious thought to the matter.
> At this point all I wonder is if anybody else feels the same.
>
>
> Cheers,
> André
>
> On 7/6/11, Cal Leeming [Simplicity Media Ltd]
>  wrote:
>> On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 10:35 PM, Andre Terra  wrote:
>>> It happens to the best of us...
>>>
>>> I still believe we could offer a better solution than a simple mailing
>>> list,
>>> specially considering the possibility of moderating messages and closing
>>> open questions.
>>
>> Any suggestions?? We already have mailing list + irc + archives +
>> ticketing system :/
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> André
>>>
>>> On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 5:55 PM, Cal Leeming [Simplicity Media Ltd]
>>>  wrote:

 So, I think I may have to add one of my own threads into the "bad
 threads" example:


 http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers/browse_thread/thread/3173871a08585c54?hl=en

 :(

 On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 10:04 PM, Cal Leeming [Simplicity Media Ltd]
  wrote:
 > @gamesbook / @Shawn
 > Looks good!
 > +1 on the proof reading, so many times I've been trigger happy on the
 > send
 > button, then found the fix 5 minutes later.
 >
 > On 30/06/2011 21:40, Shawn Milochik wrote:
 >
 > On 06/30/2011 04:33 PM, Cal Leeming [Simplicity Media Ltd] wrote:
 >
 > Spawned a new thread for this, as the old one was getting rather off
 > topic.
 >
 > KG had created a new wiki page to start putting some ideas into, of
 > which
 > people have been contributing to:
 > https://code.djangoproject.com/wiki/UsingTheMailingList
 >
 >
 > Thanks, that's great. I added a single item that has helped me
 > tremendously.
 > If you proofread and edit for clarity and brevity multiple times you
 > will
 > not only get better help, but you'll often solve your own problem after
 > properly explaining it to yourself.
 >
 > I have about a 50/50 ratio of requests for help to django-users that I
 > actually send and those that, upon re-writing, I realize what my next
 > step
 > should be and discard the draft.
 >
 > Shawn
 >
 >
 >
 >

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Re: How to use the django-users mailing list properly and doing your homework..

[Javier Guerra Giraldez]

On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 5:55 PM, Andre Terra  wrote:
> Maybe it's just a matter of endorsing SO more adamantly. When compared
> to the other solution, none is as flexible and complete.

newbie questions is one thing, collaboration is another, group
communications is another one.

for the first one, SO is really good.  for the other two, i haven't
seen anything better than a mailing list.

-- 
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Re: How to use the django-users mailing list properly and doing your homework..

[Andre Terra]

Don't forget SO!

This is precisely the problem, imo. IRC is too outdated, and the folks
who built convore seem to agree there is room for improvement. And the
number of emails on this list is unmanageable without a specialized
tool, not to mention the fact that we answer the same questions
repeatedly.

Maybe it's just a matter of endorsing SO more adamantly. When compared
to the other solution, none is as flexible and complete. Couple that
with an effort to improve our wiki and questions on how to lay out
files for a project would be rare.

But what do I know, I haven't given any serious thought to the matter.
At this point all I wonder is if anybody else feels the same.


Cheers,
André

On 7/6/11, Cal Leeming [Simplicity Media Ltd]
 wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 10:35 PM, Andre Terra  wrote:
>> It happens to the best of us...
>>
>> I still believe we could offer a better solution than a simple mailing
>> list,
>> specially considering the possibility of moderating messages and closing
>> open questions.
>
> Any suggestions?? We already have mailing list + irc + archives +
> ticketing system :/
>
>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>> André
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 5:55 PM, Cal Leeming [Simplicity Media Ltd]
>>  wrote:
>>>
>>> So, I think I may have to add one of my own threads into the "bad
>>> threads" example:
>>>
>>>
>>> http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers/browse_thread/thread/3173871a08585c54?hl=en
>>>
>>> :(
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 10:04 PM, Cal Leeming [Simplicity Media Ltd]
>>>  wrote:
>>> > @gamesbook / @Shawn
>>> > Looks good!
>>> > +1 on the proof reading, so many times I've been trigger happy on the
>>> > send
>>> > button, then found the fix 5 minutes later.
>>> >
>>> > On 30/06/2011 21:40, Shawn Milochik wrote:
>>> >
>>> > On 06/30/2011 04:33 PM, Cal Leeming [Simplicity Media Ltd] wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Spawned a new thread for this, as the old one was getting rather off
>>> > topic.
>>> >
>>> > KG had created a new wiki page to start putting some ideas into, of
>>> > which
>>> > people have been contributing to:
>>> > https://code.djangoproject.com/wiki/UsingTheMailingList
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Thanks, that's great. I added a single item that has helped me
>>> > tremendously.
>>> > If you proofread and edit for clarity and brevity multiple times you
>>> > will
>>> > not only get better help, but you'll often solve your own problem after
>>> > properly explaining it to yourself.
>>> >
>>> > I have about a 50/50 ratio of requests for help to django-users that I
>>> > actually send and those that, upon re-writing, I realize what my next
>>> > step
>>> > should be and discard the draft.
>>> >
>>> > Shawn
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>> --
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>>> "Django users" group.
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>>>
>>
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>
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Re: How to use the django-users mailing list properly and doing your homework..

[Cal Leeming [Simplicity Media Ltd]]

On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 10:35 PM, Andre Terra  wrote:
> It happens to the best of us...
>
> I still believe we could offer a better solution than a simple mailing list,
> specially considering the possibility of moderating messages and closing
> open questions.

Any suggestions?? We already have mailing list + irc + archives +
ticketing system :/

>
>
> Cheers,
> André
>
> On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 5:55 PM, Cal Leeming [Simplicity Media Ltd]
>  wrote:
>>
>> So, I think I may have to add one of my own threads into the "bad
>> threads" example:
>>
>>
>> http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers/browse_thread/thread/3173871a08585c54?hl=en
>>
>> :(
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 10:04 PM, Cal Leeming [Simplicity Media Ltd]
>>  wrote:
>> > @gamesbook / @Shawn
>> > Looks good!
>> > +1 on the proof reading, so many times I've been trigger happy on the
>> > send
>> > button, then found the fix 5 minutes later.
>> >
>> > On 30/06/2011 21:40, Shawn Milochik wrote:
>> >
>> > On 06/30/2011 04:33 PM, Cal Leeming [Simplicity Media Ltd] wrote:
>> >
>> > Spawned a new thread for this, as the old one was getting rather off
>> > topic.
>> >
>> > KG had created a new wiki page to start putting some ideas into, of
>> > which
>> > people have been contributing to:
>> > https://code.djangoproject.com/wiki/UsingTheMailingList
>> >
>> >
>> > Thanks, that's great. I added a single item that has helped me
>> > tremendously.
>> > If you proofread and edit for clarity and brevity multiple times you
>> > will
>> > not only get better help, but you'll often solve your own problem after
>> > properly explaining it to yourself.
>> >
>> > I have about a 50/50 ratio of requests for help to django-users that I
>> > actually send and those that, upon re-writing, I realize what my next
>> > step
>> > should be and discard the draft.
>> >
>> > Shawn
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "Django users" group.
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>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> django-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>> For more options, visit this group at
>> http://groups.google.com/group/django-users?hl=en.
>>
>
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Re: How to use the django-users mailing list properly and doing your homework..

[Andre Terra]

It happens to the best of us...

I still believe we could offer a better solution than a simple mailing list,
specially considering the possibility of moderating messages and closing
open questions.


Cheers,
André

On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 5:55 PM, Cal Leeming [Simplicity Media Ltd] <
cal.leem...@simplicitymedialtd.co.uk> wrote:

> So, I think I may have to add one of my own threads into the "bad
> threads" example:
>
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers/browse_thread/thread/3173871a08585c54?hl=en
>
> :(
>
> On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 10:04 PM, Cal Leeming [Simplicity Media Ltd]
>  wrote:
> > @gamesbook / @Shawn
> > Looks good!
> > +1 on the proof reading, so many times I've been trigger happy on the
> send
> > button, then found the fix 5 minutes later.
> >
> > On 30/06/2011 21:40, Shawn Milochik wrote:
> >
> > On 06/30/2011 04:33 PM, Cal Leeming [Simplicity Media Ltd] wrote:
> >
> > Spawned a new thread for this, as the old one was getting rather off
> topic.
> >
> > KG had created a new wiki page to start putting some ideas into, of which
> > people have been contributing to:
> > https://code.djangoproject.com/wiki/UsingTheMailingList
> >
> >
> > Thanks, that's great. I added a single item that has helped me
> tremendously.
> > If you proofread and edit for clarity and brevity multiple times you will
> > not only get better help, but you'll often solve your own problem after
> > properly explaining it to yourself.
> >
> > I have about a 50/50 ratio of requests for help to django-users that I
> > actually send and those that, upon re-writing, I realize what my next
> step
> > should be and discard the draft.
> >
> > Shawn
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
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>
>

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Re: How to use the django-users mailing list properly and doing your homework..

[Cal Leeming [Simplicity Media Ltd]]

So, I think I may have to add one of my own threads into the "bad
threads" example:

http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers/browse_thread/thread/3173871a08585c54?hl=en

:(

On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 10:04 PM, Cal Leeming [Simplicity Media Ltd]
 wrote:
> @gamesbook / @Shawn
> Looks good!
> +1 on the proof reading, so many times I've been trigger happy on the send
> button, then found the fix 5 minutes later.
>
> On 30/06/2011 21:40, Shawn Milochik wrote:
>
> On 06/30/2011 04:33 PM, Cal Leeming [Simplicity Media Ltd] wrote:
>
> Spawned a new thread for this, as the old one was getting rather off topic.
>
> KG had created a new wiki page to start putting some ideas into, of which
> people have been contributing to:
> https://code.djangoproject.com/wiki/UsingTheMailingList
>
>
> Thanks, that's great. I added a single item that has helped me tremendously.
> If you proofread and edit for clarity and brevity multiple times you will
> not only get better help, but you'll often solve your own problem after
> properly explaining it to yourself.
>
> I have about a 50/50 ratio of requests for help to django-users that I
> actually send and those that, upon re-writing, I realize what my next step
> should be and discard the draft.
>
> Shawn
>
>
>
>

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Re: How to use the django-users mailing list properly and doing your homework..

[Cal Leeming [Simplicity Media Ltd]]

+1 on Piotr's post.

Although I do see the benefits of Andres's ideas, I do agree that some
things really should be kept separate.

Cal

On Sat, Jul 2, 2011 at 7:49 AM, Piotr Zalewa  wrote:

> Everything has its place. For me it looks like that:
>
> direct help - IRC
> searching for solutions - tutorials, documentation, django snippets
> discovering new stuff - email list, StackOverflow
>
> zalun
>
>
> On 07/02/11 01:11, Andre Terra wrote:
>
>> To be honest, I often think about how an e-mail list is actually one of
>> the worst media to help with coding.
>>
>> Here's some food for thought: wouldn't it be better if we had a
>> django-help project that combined django snippets, a stack overflow-like
>> ratings system (an incentive to both good questions and speedy answers),
>> code highlighting, moderation, open/closed questions, etc?
>>
>>
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> André Terra
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 6:51 PM, Cal Leeming [Simplicity Media Ltd]
>> 
>> >>
>> wrote:
>>
>>Also, I modified the wiki entry to include one good/one bad example
>>of a thread.
>>
>>Could others people also contribute some examples of what they
>>consider good/bad threads too? (maybe could even put some text
>>underneath to explain why)
>>
>>On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 10:46 PM, Cal Leeming [Simplicity Media Ltd]
>>
>> 
>>
>> >>
>> wrote:
>>
>>+1 on gists (i didn't even know this existed).
>>
>>Because to be honest, if github disappears, then something has
>>gone terribly wrong with the interwebs :X
>>
>>But also +1 on django web team deploying their own...
>>
>>
>>On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 5:46 PM, Micky Hulse >> wrote:
>>
>>Don't forget about GitHub Gists!
>>
>>https://gist.github.com/
>>
>>Considering a lot of Django projects are already hosted
>>there... Seems
>>like a natural fit to me. :)
>>
>>Also, Gist has the "fork" feature.
>>
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>>
>> 
>> >.
>>
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>>
>> django-users+unsubscribe@**googlegroups.com
>>
>> 
>> **>.
>>
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>>
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>> .
>>
>>
>>
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Re: How to use the django-users mailing list properly and doing your homework..

[Piotr Zalewa]

Everything has its place. For me it looks like that:

direct help - IRC
searching for solutions - tutorials, documentation, django snippets
discovering new stuff - email list, StackOverflow

zalun

On 07/02/11 01:11, Andre Terra wrote:

To be honest, I often think about how an e-mail list is actually one of
the worst media to help with coding.

Here's some food for thought: wouldn't it be better if we had a
django-help project that combined django snippets, a stack overflow-like
ratings system (an incentive to both good questions and speedy answers),
code highlighting, moderation, open/closed questions, etc?



Sincerely,

André Terra


On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 6:51 PM, Cal Leeming [Simplicity Media Ltd]
> wrote:

Also, I modified the wiki entry to include one good/one bad example
of a thread.

Could others people also contribute some examples of what they
consider good/bad threads too? (maybe could even put some text
underneath to explain why)

On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 10:46 PM, Cal Leeming [Simplicity Media Ltd]
> wrote:

+1 on gists (i didn't even know this existed).

Because to be honest, if github disappears, then something has
gone terribly wrong with the interwebs :X

But also +1 on django web team deploying their own...


On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 5:46 PM, Micky Hulse > wrote:

Don't forget about GitHub Gists!

https://gist.github.com/

Considering a lot of Django projects are already hosted
there... Seems
like a natural fit to me. :)

Also, Gist has the "fork" feature.

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Re: How to use the django-users mailing list properly and doing your homework..

[Geoff Kuenning]

If your mail reader reformats text, IMHO it's broken.  At a minimum,
it ought to give you the option of seeing a message without
"helpfully" reformatting it.

I see little harm in asking (politely) that people go through the
significant hassle of posting code in two places (one of which may be
inaccessible at the moment of posting) just to work around broken
mailers and the preference of some readers for multicolored code.  But
don't expect it to increase the number of answers to legitimate
questions.

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Re: How to use the django-users mailing list properly and doing your homework..

[Andre Terra]

To be honest, I often think about how an e-mail list is actually one of the
worst media to help with coding.

Here's some food for thought: wouldn't it be better if we had a django-help
project that combined django snippets, a stack overflow-like ratings system
(an incentive to both good questions and speedy answers), code highlighting,
moderation, open/closed questions, etc?



Sincerely,

André Terra


On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 6:51 PM, Cal Leeming [Simplicity Media Ltd] <
cal.leem...@simplicitymedialtd.co.uk> wrote:

> Also, I modified the wiki entry to include one good/one bad example of a
> thread.
>
> Could others people also contribute some examples of what they consider
> good/bad threads too? (maybe could even put some text underneath to explain
> why)
>
> On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 10:46 PM, Cal Leeming [Simplicity Media Ltd] <
> cal.leem...@simplicitymedialtd.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> +1 on gists (i didn't even know this existed).
>>
>> Because to be honest, if github disappears, then something has gone
>> terribly wrong with the interwebs :X
>>
>> But also +1 on django web team deploying their own...
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 5:46 PM, Micky Hulse  wrote:
>>
>>> Don't forget about GitHub Gists!
>>>
>>> https://gist.github.com/
>>>
>>> Considering a lot of Django projects are already hosted there... Seems
>>> like a natural fit to me. :)
>>>
>>> Also, Gist has the "fork" feature.
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>
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Re: How to use the django-users mailing list properly and doing your homework..

[Cal Leeming [Simplicity Media Ltd]]

Also, I modified the wiki entry to include one good/one bad example of a
thread.

Could others people also contribute some examples of what they consider
good/bad threads too? (maybe could even put some text underneath to explain
why)

On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 10:46 PM, Cal Leeming [Simplicity Media Ltd] <
cal.leem...@simplicitymedialtd.co.uk> wrote:

> +1 on gists (i didn't even know this existed).
>
> Because to be honest, if github disappears, then something has gone
> terribly wrong with the interwebs :X
>
> But also +1 on django web team deploying their own...
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 5:46 PM, Micky Hulse  wrote:
>
>> Don't forget about GitHub Gists!
>>
>> https://gist.github.com/
>>
>> Considering a lot of Django projects are already hosted there... Seems
>> like a natural fit to me. :)
>>
>> Also, Gist has the "fork" feature.
>>
>> --
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>> "Django users" group.
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>> django-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>> For more options, visit this group at
>> http://groups.google.com/group/django-users?hl=en.
>>
>>
>

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Re: How to use the django-users mailing list properly and doing your homework..

[Cal Leeming [Simplicity Media Ltd]]

+1 on gists (i didn't even know this existed).

Because to be honest, if github disappears, then something has gone terribly
wrong with the interwebs :X

But also +1 on django web team deploying their own...

On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 5:46 PM, Micky Hulse  wrote:

> Don't forget about GitHub Gists!
>
> https://gist.github.com/
>
> Considering a lot of Django projects are already hosted there... Seems
> like a natural fit to me. :)
>
> Also, Gist has the "fork" feature.
>
> --
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>
>

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Re: How to use the django-users mailing list properly and doing your homework..

[Micky Hulse]

Don't forget about GitHub Gists!

https://gist.github.com/

Considering a lot of Django projects are already hosted there... Seems
like a natural fit to me. :)

Also, Gist has the "fork" feature.

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Re: How to use the django-users mailing list properly and doing your homework..

[Cal Leeming [Simplicity Media Ltd]]

Or, how about the django website team create their own pastebin for django
mailing lists :) They could even just use a stock pastebin install. Any
thoughts?
On 1 Jul 2011 13:23, "Herman Schistad"  wrote:
> Yeah, I forgot that dpaste deleted after 7 days, but pastebin is a
> good proposal Brian.
>
> We could also recommend people to paste the code in both pastebin and
> email, as the probability of someone taking the time to read through
> the code then becomes higher (I know I would much rather click on a
> pastebin link and read the code there - which makes it more probable
> that I'll help)
>
> --
> With regards, Herman Schistad
>
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Re: How to use the django-users mailing list properly and doing your homework..

[Herman Schistad]

Yeah, I forgot that dpaste deleted after 7 days, but pastebin is a
good proposal Brian.

We could also recommend people to paste the code in both pastebin and
email, as the probability of someone taking the time to read through
the code then becomes higher (I know I would much rather click on a
pastebin link and read the code there - which makes it more probable
that I'll help)

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Re: How to use the django-users mailing list properly and doing your homework..

[Brian Bouterse]

Just because dpaste breaks integrity of django-users doesn't mean that
e-mail is the "right" forum.  E-mail doesn't preserve code formatting or
syntax highlighting which is legitimately annoying.  Also lots of coders
still use text based e-mail (I don't but others do) so html syntaxing won't
always work either.  pastebin.com does have the option to retain snippets
forever as an alternative to dpaste.com which deleted them eventually.

Brian

On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 5:58 AM, Russell Keith-Magee  wrote:

> On Friday, July 1, 2011, Herman Schistad 
> wrote:
> > What about including something about e.g. http://dpaste.com for snippets
> etc.
> > I know I hate to read more than 10 lines of code in my email reader,
> > without syntax highlighting or correct indentation.
>
> Actually, there is a really good reason not to use dpaste (or a
> similar alternative) - it breaks the integrity of the Django-users
> archive. If dpaste ever goes away, or expires old pastes, then a
> valuable resource is lost. If we cant say "search the archives for an
> answer", then one of the big reasons for having a mailing list in the
> first place is lost.
>
> Yours,
> Russ Magee %-)
>
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>


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ITng Services

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Re: How to use the django-users mailing list properly and doing your homework..

[Russell Keith-Magee]

On Friday, July 1, 2011, Herman Schistad  wrote:
> What about including something about e.g. http://dpaste.com for snippets etc.
> I know I hate to read more than 10 lines of code in my email reader,
> without syntax highlighting or correct indentation.

Actually, there is a really good reason not to use dpaste (or a
similar alternative) - it breaks the integrity of the Django-users
archive. If dpaste ever goes away, or expires old pastes, then a
valuable resource is lost. If we cant say "search the archives for an
answer", then one of the big reasons for having a mailing list in the
first place is lost.

Yours,
Russ Magee %-)

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Re: How to use the django-users mailing list properly and doing your homework..

[Herman Schistad]

What about including something about e.g. http://dpaste.com for snippets etc.
I know I hate to read more than 10 lines of code in my email reader,
without syntax highlighting or correct indentation.

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Re: How to use the django-users mailing list properly and doing your homework..

[Cal Leeming [Simplicity Media Ltd]]

  
  
@gamesbook / @Shawn
Looks good!
+1 on the proof reading, so many times I've been trigger happy on
the send button, then found the fix 5 minutes later.

On 30/06/2011 21:40, Shawn Milochik wrote:
On
  06/30/2011 04:33 PM, Cal Leeming [Simplicity Media Ltd] wrote:
  
  Spawned a new thread for this, as the old
one was getting rather off topic.


KG had created a new wiki page to start putting some ideas into,
of which people have been contributing to:

https://code.djangoproject.com/wiki/UsingTheMailingList


  
  
  Thanks, that's great. I added a single item that has helped me
  tremendously. If you proofread and edit for clarity and brevity
  multiple times you will not only get better help, but you'll often
  solve your own problem after properly explaining it to yourself.
  
  
  I have about a 50/50 ratio of requests for help to django-users
  that I actually send and those that, upon re-writing, I realize
  what my next step should be and discard the draft.
  
  
  Shawn
  
  
  


  




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Re: How to use the django-users mailing list properly and doing your homework..

[Shawn Milochik]

On 06/30/2011 04:33 PM, Cal Leeming [Simplicity Media Ltd] wrote:
Spawned a new thread for this, as the old one was getting rather off 
topic.


KG had created a new wiki page to start putting some ideas into, of 
which people have been contributing to:

https://code.djangoproject.com/wiki/UsingTheMailingList



Thanks, that's great. I added a single item that has helped me 
tremendously. If you proofread and edit for clarity and brevity multiple 
times you will not only get better help, but you'll often solve your own 
problem after properly explaining it to yourself.


I have about a 50/50 ratio of requests for help to django-users that I 
actually send and those that, upon re-writing, I realize what my next 
step should be and discard the draft.


Shawn


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How to use the django-users mailing list properly and doing your homework..

[Cal Leeming [Simplicity Media Ltd]]

  
  
Spawned a new thread for this, as the old one was getting rather off
topic.

KG had created a new wiki page to start putting some ideas into, of
which people have been contributing to:
https://code.djangoproject.com/wiki/UsingTheMailingList


One thing I added into that wiki, was how to do your homework
properly. 

A few hours ago, I came up against a horrible problem with the
Python core libs, spent 2-3 hours diagnosing/fixing the problem,
then posted my step-by-step breakdown of how I resolved the issue,
what I did to track it down, and also put in a feature request to
have the problem fixed.

http://bugs.python.org/issue12455

This thread might be a good example of "doing homework properly",
and giving something back to the community.

If anyone has any other examples of "good" threads, maybe we could
create a list of "good threads" / "bad threads" so users can see
actual examples of what is classed as good/bad.

Cal
  




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