Re: [DNG] It's far from being over. Sigh!

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Alessandro Selli (alessandrose...@linux.com):

> The Openmoko are phones of a different age, when every phone had
> separated hardware components for functions that later SoC put
> together in the same silicon to lower costs.
> 
> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Main_Page
>  Latest News
> 2011-12-01: Community Updates for 12/2011
> 
> http://projects.goldelico.com/p/gta04-main/
>   Note: this is not a complete phone. You need to get a new or used Neo
>   1973 or Neo Freerunner unless you purchase one of the rare complete
>   Letux 2804 units. Or you take a Case Kit plus a 3D printed or 3D cut
>   case
> 
> http://shop.goldelico.com/wiki.php?page=GTA04%20Complete
> Display: 7.1cm / 2.8 inch, VGA resolution (480x640 = 285ppi), Touchscreen 

Looks like their price might have been €599 or €549 on their initial
production run of GTA04A5 motherboards until they ran out of stock.
This is potentially interesting to me, as I have a currently unused
Neo Freerunner GTA02 that I haven't yet given up on.

I'll keep an eye on that.  Thanks.

(Meanwhile, my primitive Motorola flip phone continues to seem a fine
deal, on balance.)

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Re: [DNG] Airwalled updating (apt-offline)

[spiralofhope]

re. apt-offline:

  http://rickysarraf.github.io/apt-offline/
  https://github.com/rickysarraf/apt-offline

I found old notes.  I have to audit this project, then it'll be here:

  https://github.com/spiralofhope/shell-random/tree/master/live/apt-offline

Those notes will be old and possibly broken until I take another pass
at it when I install the upcoming Devuan ascii.
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Re: [DNG] Airwalled updating

[spiralofhope]

On Sun, 6 May 2018 00:55:10 +0200
Florian Zieboll  wrote:

> Not actively, but I used to use the apt-offline tool with Debian for a
> while - and it worked, IIRC, well and quite simple.

I did some looking, and confirmed that I had been using apt-offline.[1]
I hunted it down and found that it's still an active project:

  http://rickysarraf.github.io/apt-offline/
  https://github.com/rickysarraf/apt-offline

--

That's likely the direction I'll go in, although I do see there are
others interested in such endeavours:

  https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=746

--

[1] It didn't note a website in its README.  How.. odd.
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Re: [DNG] It's far from being over. Sigh!

[Alessandro Selli]

On Sat, 5 May 2018 at 11:19:19 -0400
"taii...@gmx.com"  wrote:

> On 05/05/2018 03:29 AM, Alessandro Selli wrote:

[...]

>> On 05/05/2018 at 03:34, taii...@gmx.com wrote:

[...]

>>> as evidenced by
>>> many competing products such as the free replicant and the costly GSMK
>>> CryptoPhone from ESD America which is currently sold to government
>>> agencies marketed with a "Baseband Firewall"  
>>   You're comparing different kinds of products, Purism5 is a consumer
>> smartphone, not a "government agencies marketed" cryptophone.  Just like a
>> regular laptop is just a general purpose laptop, not a cryptolaptop.  
> ESD's products were originally sold to individuals, the government
> contracts came later.

  So what?  The Librem5 is going to be sold to individuals, maybe later on it's 
going to be sold to government agencies.  What you stated about it is still 
false.

> The Openmoko phones were sold with modem isolation as one of the
> advertising points - so that is a cheap phone that is still marketed to
> individuals.

  So what?  The key question is still unanswered: where did you get that the 
Librem5 is going to have the baseband and CPU glued together, contrary to what 
Purism engineers stated (neighter the i.MX6 nor the i.MX8 have a modem or WiFi 
built in)?  The Openmoko are phones of a different age, when every phone had 
separated hardware components for functions that later SoC put together in the 
same silicon to lower costs.

http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Main_Page
 Latest News
2011-12-01: Community Updates for 12/2011

http://projects.goldelico.com/p/gta04-main/
Note: this is not a complete phone. You need to get a new or used Neo
1973 or Neo Freerunner unless you purchase one of the rare complete
Letux 2804 units. Or you take a Case Kit plus a 3D printed or 3D cut
case

http://shop.goldelico.com/wiki.php?page=GTA04%20Complete
Display: 7.1cm / 2.8 inch, VGA resolution (480x640 = 285ppi), Touchscreen 

GTA04A5 currently not in stock.
GTA04A4 currently not in stock.
Letux 2804  currently not in stock.

  I'll say no more.

>>> If it had that they would mention it as it is a core feature.  
>>   Is this all you have to back up your claims?
>>   Again, the Librem5's hardware layout is not finalized yet and they are
>> still in the transition phase from the i.MX6 to the i.MX8 CPU, they do not
>> advertise what is not there yet.  But they are intentioned to design the
>> smartphone to have the different logical components actually separated in
>> hardware:
>>
>> https://forums.puri.sm/t/level-of-freedom-of-librem-phone-especially-gsm-mdule/1316
>>
>>  First we want to make sure that the 3G/4G modem is as separate as
>>  possible from the main CPU and RAM. Thus we can not and will not
>> use chipsets which combine main processor + baseband in one - like
>>  Qualcom Snapdragon etc. The mode will be a separate part with
>>  defined electrical interfaces (like USB + UART) and no direct
>> access to main CPU peripherals.  
> I wouldn't contribute to a project where core design features are still
> in the "like" stage,

  Nobody asked you to contribute to the development of the Librem5, I asked you 
to stop from deliberatley spreading lies.

> real modem isolation is a core feature for any
> secure phone and it isn't easily obtained.

  The key question is still unanswered: where did you get that the Librem5 is 
going to have the baseband unit and CPU glued together, contrary to what Purism 
engineers stated?

> If they somehow come up with real modem isolation then I will be pleased
> and recommend people buy the phone otherwise I default to their track
> record of promising the world and not delivering it.

  This does not justify your stating falseness.

> I want real technical details of how they achieve modem isolation until
> then I am very, very skeptical of their claims.

  So, you do not know what the Librem5 is going to be like.  Yet this does not 
stop you from writing lies: "their phone is yet another example of faux-freedom 
hardware like their laptops".
  The Librem5 present development boards are based on the i.MX6, the final 
product will have a i.MX8.  Neither processor has a built-in modem od WiFi 
unit, unlike most current phone SoC.

> Simply using a non-DMA
> interface doesn't provide real isolation (see the BadUSB attacks)

  Where did you read the Librem5 uses "a non-DMA interface", "doesn't provide 
real isolation" and suffers from "the BadUSB attacks"?  Or, are you spreading 
FUD once again?

>> We will also implement some form a hardware
>>  kill switch, i.e. a switch to disconnect the modem from the main
>>  system so that users can be sure that the modem is a) not powered
>>  anymore and b) there is not data flow from main processor to/from
>>  the modem.
>>
>>   A two-minute fact-checking would have spared you yet another occasion at
>> proving 

Re: [DNG] Airwalled updating

[Florian Zieboll]

On Sat, 5 May 2018 15:00:34 -0700
spiralofhope  wrote:

> I had airwalled [1] updating working on Debian variants (Lubuntu at
> least) some years ago, and I intend to pursue it again once ascii is
> out (or if I use the beta).
> 
> I searched this mailing list and did not find any topical
> conversation. Is anyone here actively doing such a thing?


Not actively, but I used to use the apt-offline tool with Debian for a
while - and it worked, IIRC, well and quite simple.

Libre Grüße,

Florian


-- 
  \
   \\
\ \
|  |
  /  \
 |   ILS SONT FOUX|
 |CES ROMAINS!|
  \__/



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Re: [DNG] It's far from being over. Sigh!

[Hendrik Boom]

On Sat, May 05, 2018 at 12:13:20PM -0700, Rick Moen wrote:

> 
> IMO, that's the best arrangement we're likely to even get -- other than
> perhaps in 'speciality' Web browsers produced/maintained entirely by
> volunteer teams without industry funding. 

Know of any adequare ones?

-- hendrik
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Re: [DNG] Airwalled updating

[golinux]

On 2018-05-05 17:00, spiralofhope wrote:

I had airwalled [1] updating working on Debian variants (Lubuntu at
least) some years ago, and I intend to pursue it again once ascii is
out (or if I use the beta).

I searched this mailing list and did not find any topical conversation.
Is anyone here actively doing such a thing?

-

I have some old scripts that I borrowed from then-quiet projects, and
it all ought to work still.

Pretty simple stuff:

  1. offline:  run offline-script, generate log
  2. online:   bring offline-script log
  3. online:   run online-script, referencing offline-log, download
   packages
  4. offline:  bring packages, update packages

(I don't know my stuff, but I get the impression that if all my tools
were broken, I could eventually re-create this process myself.)

--

  [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_gap_%28networking%29
  This is the sneakernet updating of an offline box:
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sneakernet
___



On the dev1galaxy forum miroR has written extensively about airgapping.  
That's all way beyond me but you might find something interesting there.


golinux
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[DNG] Airwalled updating

[spiralofhope]

I had airwalled [1] updating working on Debian variants (Lubuntu at
least) some years ago, and I intend to pursue it again once ascii is
out (or if I use the beta).

I searched this mailing list and did not find any topical conversation.
Is anyone here actively doing such a thing?

-

I have some old scripts that I borrowed from then-quiet projects, and
it all ought to work still.

Pretty simple stuff:

  1. offline:  run offline-script, generate log
  2. online:   bring offline-script log
  3. online:   run online-script, referencing offline-log, download
   packages
  4. offline:  bring packages, update packages

(I don't know my stuff, but I get the impression that if all my tools
were broken, I could eventually re-create this process myself.)

--

  [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_gap_%28networking%29
  This is the sneakernet updating of an offline box:
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sneakernet
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Re: [DNG] It's far from being over. Sigh!

[Rick Moen]

Quoting chill...@protonmail.com (chill...@protonmail.com):

> At minimum, I'd like to see browsers blocking certain possibilities
> from javascript. 

This isn't going to be provided in the default configurations of major
Web browsers because the firms producing and supporting them are
financially supported by firms funded by Internet advertising and user
tracking.  

However, the history of Web browsers proves that it's possible for the
browser engines to have robust and adequately featureful extension
interfaces that can serve as the basis for user-installed software to
constrain and restrict the browser's Javascript engine and related 
functions to better protect browser security, performance, and privacy.

IMO, that's the best arrangement we're likely to even get -- other than
perhaps in 'speciality' Web browsers produced/maintained entirely by
volunteer teams without industry funding.  So, bottom line, IMO, Linux
users need to stop hoping major Web browsers will merge in robust and
effective privacy-protecting (but ad-threatening)  functions into their
mainline code (such as 'blocking certain possibilities from
Javascript'), as it's not going to happen.

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[DNG] OT Amplifier design: was It's far from being over. Sigh!

[Steve Litt]

On Sat, 5 May 2018 15:10:00 +0200
Edward Bartolo  wrote:


> [ Lately, I am trying to understand how in the whole universe, all
> collectors of 16 ouput transistors (2SC5200 & 2SA1943) in an amplifier
> are earthed! Yes, earthed! Why not the 0 volt rail of the power
> supply?! ]

If your amp is anything like most of the amps I repaired at Pacific
Stereo, George Meyer TV and Steve's Stereo Repair, the emitters of
these transistors connect to the free-floating speaker output line
(which *might* be what you meant by "0 volt rail") via high wattage
resistors in the neighborhood of 0.1 to 0.5 ohms. The resistor is there
for stability. The transistor collectors are connected to the
unregulated V+ (2SC5200) or V- (2SA1943). Both are driven at their base
by the emitter outputs of the driver transistors.

If, by "earthed" you mean the collectors "grounded", as in attached to
the chassis or something directly wired to the chassis, that would be a
unique configuration for output transistors: I never saw it in 5 years
of consumer electronic repair.

I'd suggest you obtain a schematic of the amp involved. I think you'll
find the collectors connected to the + and - supply rails, not to
ground.

SteveT
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Re: [DNG] It's far from being over. Sigh!

[chillfan]

I would mostly agree with the point you're driving at, though I don't think I 
would blame individuals who use javascript responsibly.

javascript is much like flash player in that sense, widespread use and used in 
situations where it's not useful or needed (read: abused).

IMHO, I  think there should be a simpler replacement for javascript that can't 
be bloated to begin with.

At minimum, I'd like to see browsers blocking certain possibilities from 
javascript. Much like privoxys js-annoyances filter, or similar to the way 
librejs works allowing only trivial stuff.

Yes, I think we wouldn't need powerful cpus for most every day usages then.

​Cheers,

chillfan

> However, like the people who
> 
> join facebook, your actions have a network effect - making it
> 
> harder for those who want to do the right thing to stay away
> 
> from harmful "technologies".

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Re: [DNG] Firefox does analytics in browser

[chillfan]

I think another issue is that pointing the finger at facebook is a good cover 
for implementing features users would otherwise object to and strongly.
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Re: [DNG] It's far from being over. Sigh!

[Steve Litt]

On Sat, 5 May 2018 10:26:26 +0200
marc  wrote:


> Instead of using javascript to calculate your pricing,
> have you considered simply stating your pricing formula ?
> That is more open, more likely to be archived, quoted 
> and allows people to reason about it.

You don't need to market your own services, do you?


SteveT
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Re: [DNG] It's far from being over. Sigh!

[chillfan]

If they used the term "free" it would feel less hyped to me since free software 
may bundle with blobs at times.

But anyway here's a couple of devices not affected by the problems in this 
thread and supported by Devuan:

EOMA68, shipping a version with Devuan when complete. 
Banana PI
Banana Pro

ARM Cortex A7 is not yet known affected by any spectre/meltdown, and some of 
those boards can run only free software (needs research on each board, wifi is 
usually blobbed). If blobs aren't a concern then probably any Cortex A7 is OK 
for avoiding most of the bugs.

I think ARM is an OK move if it can meet the performance needs of what it 
replaces.

​Cheers,

chillfan


> My issue with purism isn't their selling products not 100% free it is
> 
> their dishonest marketing that equates a computer with an entirely
> 
> blobbed hardware initiation process to be "running libre open source
> 
> firmware" "all chips hand selected to protect your privacy and freedom"
> 
> and implying endorsement from the FSF and RMS which is very dishonest.

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Re: [DNG] It's far from being over. Sigh!

[taii...@gmx.com]

correction - the replicant gx2/gx3 phones don't have libre baseband
firmware, in this case I wonder how ESD america/GSMK made their lauded
"baseband firewall" I shall have to ask them. I swear I read somewhere
that they did

It seems the openmoko GT04 is the only phone on the market with real
modem isolation - has anyone here bought one of these and if so what do
you think? I can't understand as to why they produced it with such a
small screen.


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Re: [DNG] It's far from being over. Sigh!

[taii...@gmx.com]

On 05/05/2018 03:21 AM, Erik Christiansen wrote:

> On 05.05.18 05:32, Andrew McGlashan wrote:
>> But whilst I still can, I'll at least run my own servers and rely on the
>> "cloud" as little as possible.  Librem 5 phone coming next year for me.
> If there isn't an ARM board sufficiently free of remote control
> parasitic low level engines, then perhaps there's a RISC-V offering in
> the pipeline with a little luck.
Apparently there are a few of them in coreboot which are almost free,
but do you mean an ARM laptop or an ARM server/workstation? I believe
coreboot only has the first although there were some recent posts
talking about how the thunderX server board is somewhat free I would
suggest checking them out.

The two main issues I see with RiscV is that they have implemented SMM
and that there is no IOMMU which I believe is mandatory for any system
these days especially one that has complex un-trusted devices such as
graphics cards with binary firmware. I do everything in VM's via
multiple graphics cards on my KGPE-D16 including watching movies and
playing games, I no longer have to worry that for instance a mod I
download will steal my data as the VM has no data.

I hope they start adding IOMMU's to phones to restrict the baseband and
assorted hardware, even using a non DMA bus is still very dangerous and
non-isolated when you consider badusb style attacks.


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[DNG] It's far from being over. Sigh!

[Edward Bartolo]

Unfortunately, making technological things overly complicated reduces
the number of hackers from modifying them. This means, unethical
practices like spying on consumers and planned obsolescence are more
likely to succeed. We are living in an a world without ethics where
capital gains are involved. We, the most civilised and evolved species
on the planet, indulge in business activities that kill the
breadmaking of our rivals. The only thing that counts is increased
financial returns at the end of the year.

So, make horrible (irrational) technological decisions to achieve
whatever is set to be achieved.

[ Lately, I am trying to understand how in the whole universe, all
collectors of 16 ouput transistors (2SC5200 & 2SA1943) in an amplifier
are earthed! Yes, earthed! Why not the 0 volt rail of the power
supply?! ]
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Re: [DNG] It's far from being over. Sigh!

[marc]

Hello Steve

> I think you're painting all Javascript with the same brush. 

I suppose I wasn't clear enough. I am saying that javascript
as a turing complete (and poorly specified, horribly inefficient,
and badly designed) language allows remote parities to run
arbitrary code on your CPU. That is a property of javascript,
no overly broad brush required.

Given that complex CPUs have lots of bugs, this means chances
are excellent that the bad guys can get root on your PC with
a snippet of javascript. And what is worse is that the main
reason your CPU is so complex is that it needs to run the so
very inefficient javascript code.

> See my
> pricing page:
> 
> http://troubleshooters.com/utp/courseware_cost_calculator.htm
> 
> Loads almost instantly. Does exactly what is needed. Replacing it with
> a calculator on the back end would require a send to the back end and
> (remember, no Javascript, no AJAX) the back end sending an entire page
> to the browser.

So I am not going to look at your site, as I take my own
advice and don't run javascript where possible. I think you
are a decent person and probably won't want to break into
your viewers computers via some javascript malware, or spy
on them with some analytics. However, like the people who
join facebook, your actions have a network effect - making it
harder for those who want to do the right thing to stay away
from harmful "technologies".

Instead of using javascript to calculate your pricing,
have you considered simply stating your pricing formula ?
That is more open, more likely to be archived, quoted 
and allows people to reason about it.

> Don't blame Javascript because some programmers think it's hip to throw
> in fifty layers of abstraction to get "just the right look" without
> "reinventing the wheel."
> 
> Blaming Javascript for force fed pig websites is like blaming C for
> systemd.

Ah, I forgot that you are fond of wild analogies :)
So I'll provide you with one of my I own: Think of
javascript like one does of antipersonel mines or
chemical weapons - as having no place in a
civilised world.

regards

marc
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Re: [DNG] Firefox does analytics in browser

[Dave Turner]

On 04/05/18 22:55, Arnt Karlsen wrote:

On Fri, 4 May 2018 17:50:50 +0200, Dr. wrote in message
<201805041750.50383.dr.kl...@gmx.at>:


Am Freitag, 4. Mai 2018 schrieb Adam Borowski:

Although it's interesting how they can have the gall to label
something that siphons all of your browsing data as
"privacy-oriented search experience".

LOL ... newspeak everywhere you look: When it's called "expert", you
know it does not know what it's talking about. When it's labeled
"professional", you know all professionals will stay away from it ...


..a proper "professional" "expert" reponse could be run all browsers
exactly once, from throw-away virtual machines, so all web browsers
etc look brand new to trackers, because they always _are_ brand new.

..on killing them, we _may_ (and _not_) wanna haul out the history
and bookmarks into some sort of (local) history log server and
(local) bookmarks (web) server, that e.g. launches new throw-aways
anytime an url is hit.

Happily TinyCore linux exists. It can be run as a clean install every 
time you run it.


DaveT

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Re: [DNG] It's far from being over. Sigh!

[Alessandro Selli]

  Oblivious of the basics of ML/Usenet reply rules?
0) a reply to a message must be sent as a reply to that message, not pasted
into another message's reply;
1) the author of the message one is replying to must be quoted before the
quoted message.

  Yet another example of your childish attitude when you're caught acting
like a moron.  After all, that's the only sensible reason you hide behind a
nickname.

On 05/05/2018 at 03:34, taii...@gmx.com wrote:

[...]

>>> Purism is a very dishonest company and their
>>> phone is yet another example of faux-freedom hardware like their
>>> laptops, they do absolutely nothing to address the real issues like the
>>> baseband problem.
>>   Not in the least as dishonest as you are.  First off, what does Purism have
>> to do with the thread's subject? 
> Someone replied talking about their phones and I wanted to provide
> information
  You're spreading lies and misinformation, nothing else, nothing more.

>> Nothing at all, but you feel compelled at
>> disparaging them at every turn of the road.  Like bashing the librem5, a
>> smartphone in the design stage, which hardware is not yet finalised yet you
>> keep stating it is not going to have a modem and WiFi unit separated from
>> the CPU.  How do you know?
> Because that is a mandatory feature on any secure phone,

1) I never contended this is not an important feature of a really secure
phone, so your answer is bogus.
2) This does not answer my question: "How do you know?"

> as evidenced by
> many competing products such as the free replicant and the costly GSMK
> CryptoPhone from ESD America which is currently sold to government
> agencies marketed with a "Baseband Firewall"

  You're comparing different kinds of products, Purism5 is a consumer
smartphone, not a "government agencies marketed" cryptophone.  Just like a
regular laptop is just a general purpose laptop, not a cryptolaptop.

> If it had that they would mention it as it is a core feature.

  Is this all you have to back up your claims?
  Again, the Librem5's hardware layout is not finalized yet and they are
still in the transition phase from the i.MX6 to the i.MX8 CPU, they do not
advertise what is not there yet.  But they are intentioned to design the
smartphone to have the different logical components actually separated in
hardware:

https://forums.puri.sm/t/level-of-freedom-of-librem-phone-especially-gsm-mdule/1316

First we want to make sure that the 3G/4G modem is as separate as
possible from the main CPU and RAM. Thus we can not and will not use
chipsets which combine main processor + baseband in one - like
Qualcom Snapdragon etc. The mode will be a separate part with
defined electrical interfaces (like USB + UART) and no direct access
to main CPU peripherals. We will also implement some form a hardware
kill switch, i.e. a switch to disconnect the modem from the main
system so that users can be sure that the modem is a) not powered
anymore and b) there is not data flow from main processor to/from
the modem.

  A two-minute fact-checking would have spared you yet another occasion at
proving yourself an asshole.  But since you're not interested in facts but
just on leading a smearing campaign from an anonymous account, there you go.

>> How could one accept your Talos' obsessive advertizing
> I have a lot of free time with nothing better to do than to provide free
> information and help people get the best stuff for their money as others
> did for me - I don't get paid for anything as not everyone is a paid shill.

  Not everyone, right, but you are indeed.  A shill, I mean.  You probably
are too stupid to get paid for your services.

> By those same standards I also work for lenovo, asus (my also "obsessive
> advertising" of the last and best x86 choices) and several arms of the
> federal government (my telling people they should take amtrak as it is
> much nicer than the bus and of course my defense of the CIA's spying
> programs)
  In this ML you only keep exalting the qualities of Talos' products,
nothing else.

>> when you proved yourself over and over a compulsive liar and an emotionally 
>> driven idiot?  Do us and yourself a big favour, please shut your mouth up.
> I am providing information
  You are only spreading lies and gratuitous misinformation.

> about the best current options and I will
> continue to do so until I am banned.

  Which I hope is going to happen soon.

> All my facts are cited and anyone can look them up.

  I did look them up, and I could easily disprove them.

> I am only one person who is going up against companies with million
> dollar marketing departments and I don't see why people like you and so
> many others are so intent on shutting down protest and constructive
> criticis.
  Because you are not protesting and you are not producing constructive
criticism.  You are just spreading lies and misinformation.

[...]

> The thing is that 

Re: [DNG] It's far from being over. Sigh!

[Erik Christiansen]

On 05.05.18 05:32, Andrew McGlashan wrote:
> But whilst I still can, I'll at least run my own servers and rely on the
> "cloud" as little as possible.  Librem 5 phone coming next year for me.

If there isn't an ARM board sufficiently free of remote control
parasitic low level engines, then perhaps there's a RISC-V offering in
the pipeline with a little luck.

> Opting out of the big 5 is also very much something I would like to do:
> 
> 1. Google (including Android)
> 2. Apple
> 3. Microsoft (including LinkedIn, Skype and other privacy nightmares)
> 4. Amazon (including AWS)
> 5. Facebook
> 
> Oh and Twitter would make it six...

Anyone who has succumbed to Twitterface has only himself to blame. (I
offer no sympathy.) And having not possessed a M$ box in more than 30
years of using computers, I feel that it is a weakness to allow them
into one's professional life as well. (I took my second fat redundancy
when management said "There's no point offering you M$ training, is
there?)

But Google is free to push a few paid offerings to the top of search
results, and I appreciate any insight it gains from my search history.
Designing the off-grid house I'm building has involved quite a bit of
research, and a bunch of standards and commercial datasheets have gone
into it. OK, only some of the books came from Amazon, the rest from
CSIRO, but so long as the price is good, I'm agnostic.

I will add one, though. I _really_ don't want my solar inverter to be
net connected, so it can go down because of some damn network worm or
manufacturer cock-up. I'll take my datalogging over RS485, thank you.

Erik
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