Re: [DNG] Forums: was I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,
On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 03:47:10PM -0700, Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting Steve Litt (sl...@troubleshooters.com): > > > On Fri, 14 Jul 2017 21:44:51 +0200 > > Dragan FOSS wrote: > > > > > On 07/14/2017 07:17 AM, Steve Litt wrote: > > > > philosopher > > > > > > NoI'm just a little grain of sand, on the Third Stone from the > > > Sun :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7uJk0cb7Nw > > > > You may think that, but all along the watchtower they're talking about > > you. > > You might very well think that. I couldn't possibly comment. > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJFiByfiRTA > > (Hey, Dylan fan, Hendrix fan, BSG fan, or all three?) I'm a Dylan fan. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] 404.
On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 10:10:20AM +0100, G.W. Haywood wrote: > Good morning, > > On Tue, 11 Jul 2017, G.W. Haywood wrote: > > >... back with more dumb questions presently. > > For those just joining us, I'm attempting to follow the instructions at > > https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=549 > > My guess is that nobody has yet followed these instructions for a new > project - at least nobody who was not already sufficiently familiar > with the process not to need them - because there seem to be places in > setting up a real project, as opposed to the null demonstration, where > things need to be done and decisions need to be made which are not > mentioned in the document. I'm happy to be testing the document. :) I'm a complete novice in this matter. The first thing I noticed was the line debhelper and all the usual stuff needed to build Debian packages (lintian, build-essential, cdbs, dh-make, fakeroot, and so on...) with the phrase "and so on..." As a coplete novice, I hae no idea what packages are included by this phrase. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"
On Tue, Jul 11, 2017 at 02:10:04PM +0200, Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult wrote: > On 11.07.2017 13:55, Simon Hobson wrote: > > > >3) Explain (in rational, technical, non-political) terms why people > >should care that there is a choice - and why we think they would be > >wise to take it. > > I wouldn't waste time on that. They have to learn by themselves - > preaching doesn't help. There are those who feel uneasy, but need the rhetoric to know just what it is that make them uneasy. They are the ones the ratonal, technical, nonpolitical terms will reach. Conclusions about such matters are often obvious only when they have been pointed out. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"
On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 05:34:29PM -0500, Nate Bargmann wrote: > > A [L]GPL'ed worm or virus is Free Software, but is it acceptable > software? Of course, if we're only concerned about its licensing, we > won't have a care what it does to user's computers or data. > > It has always seemed to me that an implicit part of the GPL is the old > Google slogan, "Do no harm." I believe the Google slogan was "Don't be evil." "First, do no harm" is from the English translaation of the Hippocratic Oath. > > It has been long ago, perhaps the better part of two decades since I > read this, but RMS was not a fan of computer security as it developed > around him. The fsf internet site originally had no passwords on it at all, with th eintention that anyone could just connect and participate in the great work. RMS was appalled when someone used that freedom to use his site to atack another network site. It was a dark day in the life of the FSF when he had to impose passwords for system access. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Why did it take Devuan 2 years to replace systemd?
On Sun, Jul 09, 2017 at 04:31:18PM -0700, Gregory Nowak wrote: > On Sat, Jul 08, 2017 at 09:35:06PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: > > Rather than argue the exact amount of time, I took his question at face > > value and answered why it's so dam hard to alt-init a systemd-infested > > system. You can see my answer here: > > > > http://troubleshooters.com/linux/systemd/bikebrakes.htm > > The break pads analogy isn't bad. Relating that to what actually > needed to happen to turn debian jessie into devuan Jessie (assuming > you're familiar enough with the process) would be > even better. Yes. It would be useful to have that kid of historical documentation. So that some poet better than I am could turn it into an epic sage... You know the kind of thing: Of code and the men I sing, who first From the shores of systemd did .. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] YANAB (Yet-Another-Not-A-Bug)
On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 10:22:53AM +0100, KatolaZ wrote: > https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=867745 > > HND > > KatolaZ I missed the part where it says not a bug. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] A problem with a license
On Wed, Jul 05, 2017 at 09:06:06PM +0200, Alessandro Selli wrote: > On Wed, 5 Jul 2017 at 13:37:43 +0100 > KatolaZ wrote: > > [...] > > > I totally agree that the best thing would be for DPA to change the > > license to a regular Expat/MIT (i.e., by removing that clause), and it > > is evident now that we are all on the same page. > > He might release it under a dual licence: > > 1) systemd-encumbered distributions: the licence stays the way it is; > 2) systemd-free distributions: the systemd journal API clause is forgone. That wouldn't solve the problem. People getting the system from us might want to add it to a distro with systemd. -- hendrik > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] space needed for upgrades
On Tue, Jul 04, 2017 at 12:51:23PM +0100, Vincent Bentley wrote: > I was using a 100MB tmpfs for /tmp which worked on Jessie. I increased > it to 500MB and it still didn't allow apt to update on Ascii. So, to > answer your question I put /tmp on another file system with 6GB free and > the update worked. I didn't have enough free space on /tmp after all. 6GB is a ridiculous amount of space. I wonder how much of it yo really needed. Could some other people report how much /tmp space they had available during successful or failed jessie->ascii upgrades? -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd allows elevated access from unit files?
On Mon, Jul 03, 2017 at 10:45:29AM -0500, dev wrote: > On 07/03/2017 10:40 AM, Evilham wrote: > > > > That's the thing, we can do that :-) probably should, but the "right > > way" (from a standards point of view) would be to actually allow those > > names ^^ not to disallow them. So instead of modifying the way useradd > > works, the way adduser works should be fixed (so, shadow). > > That was easy ;) Seems to be a flag for that. But they should work without the flag. The flag will allow usernames that are *really* questinoable. -- hendrik > > # adduser 0day --force-badname > Allowing use of questionable username. > Adding user `0day' ... > Adding new group `0day' (1000) ... > Adding new user `0day' (1000) with group `0day' ... > Creating home directory `/home/0day' ... > Copying files from `/etc/skel' ... > Enter new UNIX password: > ___ ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] systemd allows elevated access from unit files?
On Mon, Jul 03, 2017 at 04:36:30PM +0200, Evilham wrote: > Hi there, > > Am 03/07/2017 um 16:08 schrieb dev: ... > > > > useradd 0day works on Devuan. adduser 0day does not. Which is correct? > > I had this discussion yesterday, so here are my 2 cents :-). > > It is quite inconsistent what a "valid username" is, apparently it has > gotten better. > > According to POSIX, a valid username may include: a-z, A-Z, 0-9, ., -, _ > Where "-" cannot appear at the beginning. There is no further > restriction on the other chars. > http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/basedefs/V1_chap03.html#tag_03_435 > > So, useradd works because it's lower level, adduser does not, because it > comes from shadow and they have more restrictions on what a valid name > is. IMHO that's a bug in shadow. > https://github.com/shadow-maint/shadow/blob/master/libmisc/chkname.c#L52 > > It is not possible, for example to execute: adduser name.lastname, which > is a valid POSIX username (but useradd name.lastname works fine). It's not clear to me whether this is a bug in the adduser that's been around for ages, or n a systemd replacement for it. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] WARNING! DO NOT APT-GET UPDATE/UPGRADE ON ASCII
On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 07:58:13PM +0200, Arnt Karlsen wrote: > > ..if apt-get upgrade fails you, aptitude upgrade might work and > vice versa, they solve package conflicts differently. > Safely? See above. ;o) That's not the problem. aptitude and apt-get use the same repositories. The problem is that at the moment, ascii contains the wrong packages. Packages you amost certainly don't want to install. As far as I can tell at the moment, they might even require systemd. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Remote administation
On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 12:32:01AM -0500, John Morris wrote: > On Sat, 2017-06-24 at 11:04 -0500, Don Wright wrote: > > > Just teleport into the datacenter on the other side of the planet, or the > > office building where your after-hours key card doesn't work because all > > cards were cancelled following the alleged burglary last week*, or do some > > other Herculean task, and insert that healing potion. > > One acronym. IPMI. When it is truly important, use real server > hardware designed to be remotely managed. In a worst case scenario like > you describe you might need a Windows PC on your end to use the full > featured vendor supplied IPMI client tools that let you remote mount a > USB stick or CD to a machine but it can do it. Of course now they are > pushing the almost entirely closed Intel AMT stuff. Bleh. IPMI is presuably the same protocol described as "The most dangerous protocol you've never heard of"? http://www.itworld.com/article/2708437/security/ipmi--the-most-dangerous-protocol-you-ve-never-heard-of.html> -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,
On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 01:19:50AM +0200, Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult wrote: > On 27.06.2017 11:06, Arnt Karlsen wrote: > > >..there's hope, it would take holding the systemd fanbois > >to the same standards as the 'clowns' at grsecurity... > >http://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/06/26/linus_torvalds_slams_pure_garbage_from_clowns_at_grsecurity/ > > wait a second - these grsecurity folks are *selling* kernel patches ? > how is that compatible w/ the gpl ? The gpl places no restrictions at all on selling code at any price whatsoever. It's just that gpl allows the person you sell it to to do the same, compete with you, and undersell you by as much as he wants. The end result of such competition is a very low market price. -- hendrik. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,
On Sun, Jun 25, 2017 at 05:00:07PM -0400, taii...@gmx.com wrote: > On 22.06.2017 19:53, Hendrik Boom wrote: > >>I manage to get a root accout on my phone. But even root only gets > >>selective access to parts of the file system. And hope you're lucky > >>when you try to guess the names of the its of file system you are > >>allowed to access. Google seems to have found ways to geld root. > Don't forget the ARM TrustZone and Baseband supervisor processors that you > as an end-user don't really have access to It may not even take that much. When I, as a user, mount an sshfs on my laptop, root cannot read the remote file system. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,
On Sun, Jun 25, 2017 at 09:23:10PM +0200, Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult wrote: > On 22.06.2017 19:53, Hendrik Boom wrote: > > > I manage to get a root accout on my phone. But even root only gets > > selective access to parts of the file system. And hope you're lucky > > when you try to guess the names of the its of file system you are > > allowed to access. Google seems to have found ways to geld root. > > By the way: I've already thought of some "GnuDroid" project (and did > a few experiments), briging the app stuff into GNU world (might even > be useful for small desktop apps) and just running a minimal GNU/Linux > w/ GNUdroid on the phone. > > Anyone here working on something similar ? The big question is whether Android still requires a custom Linux kernel. I know years ago it did, and the first batch of changes Google proposed weren't admitted into the Linux kernel. I heard that they modified their proposal, and that subsequently they did get changes into the official kernel. Whether it now has *everything* Android needs? I don't know. Google "Android on Linux" and you'll probably find a few relevant links. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Sessions in 1990.
On Sun, Jun 25, 2017 at 01:02:01PM -0700, Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult (enrico.weig...@gr13.net): > > > Could anyone please enlighten me, what all these "seat" and "session" > > stuff is really about ? What is the underlying problem to solve here ? > > Below are a couple of things I've written on the subject here and > elsewhere. > > > > Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2016 01:29:23 -0700 > From: Rick Moen > To: dng@lists.dyne.org > Subject: Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen > > Quoting Arnt Gulbrandsen (a...@gulbrandsen.priv.no): > > > Multiseat is unimportant, barely significant. The price of computers > > has dropped enough that the ones with UIs are now personal devices. > > Might be obvious, but just mentioning: 'Multiseat' (GNOME/system > implementation of which proximately caused the systemd-logind > omnishambles of several years ago) needs to be distinguished from > multiuser. > > Unix has been inherently, by design, _multiuser_ since its beginning, > and I for one would be quite sad if my Linux servers were suddenly > 'personal devices': E.g., a Web / SMTPd / ftpd / sshd / rsyncd / NTPd > server like the one in my garage suddenly failing to serve remote users > would be a misfortune. > > I have to confess that I personally didn't understand how multiseat > differs from multiuser on Linux until quite recently. Pro bono publico: > It concerns simultaneous _local_ users. The Linux kernel[1] can, > unaided, make _only one_ (local) virtual terminal active at a time. Sure, > you can (e.g.) have one X11 server attached to /dev/tty7 and another to > /dev/tty8, but it turns out that any time one's active, the other can't > be -- even if two physical sets of console hardware are attached. > So, multiseat is, in short, a system software elaboration to fix that. > > This missing kernel functionality isn't important to either you, Simon > Walter, or me, but it's a genuine limitation nonetheless, and there's > nothing wrong _per se_ with offering ways around that limitation. Note > that systemd-consoled is not the only candidate: kmscon preceded it, > albeit development is currently stalled. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kmscon > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiseat_configuration#GNU.2FLinux also > mentions several other current implementations. > > So, multiseat is _not_ a systemd invention, nor a systemd monopoly. > > Latter page mentions 'Multiseat setups are great for schools, libraries, > and family computers.' Arguably true, _maybe_. Depends on the economics > of additional consoles versus extra complete computers, I guess. I > enjoyed using minicomputers during high school: A modern revival of that > computing model using Linux might make money sense or might not, depending. > Otherwise, I wouldn't say today that it'll necessarily be 'unimportant' in > years to come. > > [1] Some other *ixes such as SunOS and Irix allegedly (per Wikipedia) > had multiseat capability since early days, though I have no further > details. Rond about 1990 I was using an X terminal. 8 megabytes of memory, impleented the X protocol, and almost nothing else. It presented a login screen on sshich I could tell it which coputer on the network I wanated to log in to, as sell as the usual name and password, and after that I had X with a window manager. If I wanter a so-called desktop, I'd tell the remote machine to start it. It worked just fine. Nothing special needed on the remote machine. THe X terminal could even boot over the net. It did not need much in the way of local permanent storage. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] reverse-engineering systemd is fighting strategic incompetence.
On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 12:15:17PM +0100, KatolaZ wrote: > On Sun, Jun 18, 2017 at 12:08:47PM +0200, info at smallinnovations dot nl > wrote: ... ... > > Expanding to that we can even make a libsystemd0 that actually works with > > any init system (except systemd) for all relevant init parts and to all > > other calls answering that systemd is not present. > > > > > > I fail to see the importance of such task, since I really don't > understand what are these things that all init systems have in common, > except for riping orphaned processes. But again, if you feel like > having a library for all init systems to share is something worth > doing, please do it. The point is that that proposed libsystemd0 would *not* be an init system, and it would still enable software that was written to use systemd to run flawlessly. But I have to agree that writing such a thing is infeasible because the so-called systemd cabal can change the specs faster than anyone can do the reverse engineering. And it will take reverse engineering, because the specs aren't sufficient. I use the term "strategic incompetence" for the organisations that produce such system(d)s. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] devuan is getting used
On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 08:21:44AM -0400, Gary Olzeke wrote: > We have made several relevant modifications in Q4OS Orion to be > ready for installation under other Debian based operating systems, so > anyone is now enabled to gain Q4OS Orion based on Ubuntu 16.04 LTS Xenial > Xerus as well as Devuan Jessie, see Q4OS based on Ubuntu Nice they mention Devuan explicitly. We are starting to be recognised as significant instead of just being significant. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] some ASCII issues
On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 05:02:54PM -0400, Gary Olzeke wrote: > bash couldn't find 'nano' (I wanted to copy the 'sandbox' message) > bash was looking in /usr/bin/nano - it was at /bin/nano [per 'which' > command] Could that be a side effect of debian/systemd's fusion of /usr with /? -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] backporting
On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 08:16:00PM +0100, KatolaZ wrote: > On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 01:59:14PM -0400, Hendrik Boom wrote: > > Are there instructions somewhere whereby a novice could backport a > > package? I'm interested in backportin opam and related stuff because > > the opam in jessie is dangerously obsolete. It is no longer > > compatible with the opam archive format. > > > > The only problem might be that most of the times backporting a package > could imply backporting also some of its deps. For the rest, it might > possibly be relatively straightforward. Of course it may imply further backports. But how do I do it? -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] backporting
Are there instructions somewhere whereby a novice could backport a package? I'm interested in backportin opam and related stuff because the opam in jessie is dangerously obsolete. It is no longer compatible with the opam archive format. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,
On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 07:39:26AM -1000, Joel Roth wrote: > Hendrik Boom wrote: > > I long for a proper Linux on my phone. > > Virus-makers can install software on my phone with root > capabilities, but I am not provided convenient tools to do > so. I manage to get a root accout on my phone. But even root only gets selective access to parts of the file system. And hope you're lucky when you try to guess the names of the its of file system you are allowed to access. Google seems to have found ways to geld root. And the so-called "Debian on Android" needs no privileges, but seems to give you a closed-in fakeroot that has no access at all to the data on the phone. I want to sync files between my phone and my laptop. Doing that correctly requires revision management. -- hendrik > > -- > Joel Roth > > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,
On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 06:27:19PM +0200, Alessandro Selli wrote: > > My experience differs: I heard many times non technical people bemoan the > way their Android phone does things and ask me how that could be changed, how > that could be taken away (usually pop-ups and notifications), how they could > do this-or-that with fewer touches and scrolls. And my answer a lot of the > times is: "You cannot, they do not let users do that", and they are frustrated > things are like this. And all the competitors on the phone market have the same attitude. Except maybe that Nokia spinoff, whose phones don't use the frequencies Canadian carriers like. Those nontechnical people are truly trapped. I long for a proper Linux on my phone. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Deliberate inflexibility
On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 12:53:25PM +0200, Alessandro Selli wrote: > > You do *not* empower people taking away what they could easily do the day > before and suddenly prevent them from even changing the desktop's > aesthetics. You do not empower non-technical users by forcing them into a > "user experience" they do not like, they are vocally against, imposing them a > new, unmodifiable GUI paradigm that disrupts the way they interacted with > their desktop until they were force-fed the "innovation" by the devs. Even Apple is driving some of their users away by this tactic. My wife has decided that her next computer will not be an apple because with the current release of the OS (which she had to install because her application software wouldn't work properly without it) all the fonts and icons suddenly became too small to be readable. Oh yes, she managedto find settings that changes this in some application software, but Apples supplied things remained unusable. -- hendrik > > > Bye, > > -- > Alessandro Selli http://alessandro.route-add.net > VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net > Chiavi PGP/GPG keys: B7FD89FD, 4A904FD9 > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,
On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 07:47:08PM +0200, Joachim Fahrner wrote: > Am 2017-06-20 18:58, schrieb KatolaZ: > >What could be relevant is that, as several people have already pointed > >out, GNOME 3 is still available for platforms in which systemd is not > >present (e.g., FreeBSD: https://www.freebsd.org/gnome/). The main > >problem in having "that" GNOME 3 in Devuan is the availability of a > >sufficient number (which I cannot quantify, but would probably be >1) > >of maintainers who are willing to delve into the FreeBSD port, and > >transform that huge thing into a viable set of deb packages which play > >well with the stuff currently present in Devuan (ascii? > >beowulf?). This is totally doable, if people really want GNOME 3 in > >Devuan. > > I disagree. This should be a task for gnome developers, if they want to be > compatible with non-systemd systems (FreeBSD, Devuan...). If they don't, > then forget Gnome. ANY developer outside of the gnome team will ALWAYS be > behind the actual development, resulting in unstable ports. I would not > accept such ugly "third party workarounds". We have enough work being an "ugly" "third party workaround" for Debian. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,
On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 06:29:27PM +0200, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote: > Am Dienstag, 20. Juni 2017 schrieb Hendrik Boom: > > On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 09:12:39AM -0500, Nate Bargmann wrote: > > > > > > A few years ago I took over maintenance of a handy application of > > > interest to radio amateurs. It had been dropped from Debian due to a > > > compile failure with a newer version of GTK2. The fix was fairly > > > trivial even for a GTK novice such as myself and the app is in Jessie. > > > For how long, I don't know as GTK2 will undoubtedly be deprecated in > > > some future release which leaves me wondering which way to go as I don't > > > think GTK3 is a worthwhile path to follow. > > > > Didn't someone fork GTK2 and give it anothr name? Or am I mixed up > > with something else? > > Some folks forked KDE3 and named it TDE http://trinitydesktop.org :-) Did some looking around and apparently Trinity now uses Qt3, accoording to the text accompanying a YouTube video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OYHRvPL9JU -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,
On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 09:12:39AM -0500, Nate Bargmann wrote: > > A few years ago I took over maintenance of a handy application of > interest to radio amateurs. It had been dropped from Debian due to a > compile failure with a newer version of GTK2. The fix was fairly > trivial even for a GTK novice such as myself and the app is in Jessie. > For how long, I don't know as GTK2 will undoubtedly be deprecated in > some future release which leaves me wondering which way to go as I don't > think GTK3 is a worthwhile path to follow. Didn't someone fork GTK2 and give it anothr name? Or am I mixed up with something else? -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,
On Sun, Jun 18, 2017 at 05:16:34AM -0700, Bruce Perens wrote: > On Sun, Jun 18, 2017 at 3:19 AM, Joachim Fahrner wrote: > > > > systemd is not not only an init system, it is expanding to a whole eco > > system around the linux kernel, creating apis for everything you can think > > of. > > > Systemd started with the desire to communicate the desktop hardware state > to user-mode applications and to make up for the lack of login sessions in > the Unix API. There is no reason not to have APIs for everything you can > think of, as long as they don't depend on systemd. The bad decisions were > to tie these things into init system, to thus require a single software > package for all of these APIs, and to subsume a great many system tasks > into one software project. > > Although Unix provided these services (to the extent that they existed at > all) using small programs, Unix was monolithic in that the kernel and the > system utilities were all developed by ATT or later U.C. Berkeley, with > some tweaks by your hardware manufacturer. You got the system utilities on > your installation tape, and most hardware only had one choice of > installation tape. > > It was only with the creation of the Free BSDs and the Linux distributions > that you got package choice of system utilities. The original Debian had > the entire base system produced by Ian Murdock as a single package. Before > I split up production of the base system into separate packagers, nobody > knew that you *could *produce the base system that way, and that it would > work. > > The solution for this is to restore what I did with Debian: balkanize the > system utilities, so that the APIs are provided by separate utilities > developed by separate projects. The APIs originally provided by systemd > need not change in doing this, although they need not be the only APIs for > those services. Provide package choice. > > Provide the expected messages regarding the hardware state and user > sessions through libsystemd0. Just don't have them come from systemd. Don't > just answer all calls with "systemd is not here", provide the actual > services where they do something useful. Provide a means for any system > utility to originate those messages. Have the API interfaces for systemd stablized? If not, you will end up with a maintenance headache or another incompatible API set as systemd continues to mutate. Which may be a good thing if the new API set is stable. If stability is the goal instead of compatibility, I propose that the new API be the existing traditional one wherever that is feasible and soething new where it is not. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,
On Fri, Jun 16, 2017 at 08:55:44PM -0400, zap wrote: > > > On 06/16/2017 05:22 PM, Rick Moen wrote: > > Quoting zap (calmst...@posteo.de): > > > >> how does one remove that package without removing anything else? > >> > >> I mean how do you remove it from being depended on by nearly every bit > >> of software... > >> > >> I want to install openrc so that is why I ask... > > The presence of libsystemd0, albeit annoying, doesn't prevent you from > > installing and using OpenRC. > > > > depends, for me I cannot install openrc without losing literately one > hundred or more packages! > > for the record, I was not... troling... I am completely serious._ when I try install openrc, all it asks me to remove is sysv-rc. I stopped aptitude at the stge where it tries to resolve incomptibilies by recommending that packages be dropped. I didn't go further. This is with Devuan jessie. There must be something more going on in your system than mine. I do have libsystemd0 installed. -- hendrik > _ > > > > > ___ > > Dng mailing list > > Dng@lists.dyne.org > > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,
On Fri, Jun 16, 2017 at 10:57:52PM +, Bruce Perens wrote: > But it has the name libsystemd0! It should be called The Init Library That > Must Not Be Named. :-) I think that one fails the syntax test on package names. I don't think spaces are allowed. In any case, libsystemd0 is not an init system. It presumably relates to those parts of systemd that are not an init system (i.e., most of it) -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] I have a question about libsystemd0 in devuan ascii,
On Fri, Jun 16, 2017 at 11:53:13PM +0200, Dragan FOSS wrote: > On 16.06.2017. 23:22, Rick Moen wrote: > > >The presence of libsystemd0, albeit annoying, doesn't prevent you from > >installing and using OpenRC. > > > The presence of libsystemd0 means that devuan is not able to function > without systemd. libsystemd0 provides the interfaces of systemd for those pieces of software that require them, but provides the empty implementations; i.e., informing the caller that the requested acton is not available. It is completely compatible with not having systemd, and provides an easy migration path for packages that are designed to test for the presence of systemd and not use it if it is absent. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] package listing
On Fri, Jun 16, 2017 at 05:27:30PM +0100, KatolaZ wrote: > On Sat, Jun 17, 2017 at 01:55:57AM +1000, Tom wrote: > > Interesting. Do you know how often it gets updated? Is it on an automatic > > schedule? > > > > The list of all available packages in the repos you have in > /etc/apt/sources.list can be found in /var/lib/apt/lists. To visualise > that list (without version numbers) you can use something like: > > $ grep "^Package: " /var/lib/apt/lists/*_Packages | cut -d " " -f 2 | sort > > while if you also want the version numbers, you could use the only > slightly more complicated: > > $ grep -E "^(Package: |Version: )" /var/lib/apt/lists/*_Packages | cut -d " > " -f 2 | sed 'N;s/\n/ /' > > If you are interested in which versions of a specific package are > available in each of the repos you have specified in > /etc/apt/sources.list just use > > $ apt-cache policy PACKAGENAME I'm often iterested in the packages that are in the repos I have *not* specified in sources.list -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] human reaable package index
On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 02:16:45PM -0400, fsmithred wrote: > On 06/13/2017 11:01 AM, goli...@dyne.org wrote: > > On 2017-06-13 06:59, aitor wrote: > >> Hi, > >> On 06/12/2017 12:00 PM, Jaromil wrote: > >> > >>> On Sun, 11 Jun 2017, Hendrik Boom wrote: > >>> > >>>> Debian has a useful page, https://www.debian.org/distrib/packages > >>>> [1], > >>>> which you get to via packages.debian.org > >>>> > >>>> Is there anything similar for devuan? > >>>> > >>>> https://www.devuan.org/distrib/packages [2] does not work. > >>>> Nor does https://packages.devuan.org/ [3] > >>> > >>> indeed, we are lacking behind on this front. > >>> > >>> these were some past attempts lead by hellekin, but I think we may > >>> have to start from scratch. we shall discuss this in the next > >>> dev-meeting. > >>> > >>> ciao > >> > >> The second one works for me. > >> > >>Aitor. > >> > > > > --- > > > > Yes, for me also > > > > golinux > > ___ > > > There's also https://files.devuan.org/devuan_jessie/ > Each iso has a corresponding package list file. > > The searchable web interface is nice. The one that Debian provides > conveniently also works for 99% of the packages in Devuan. Agreed. So I use it. But it doesn't tell me which packages belong to the 1% that isn't the same or doesn't have the same dependencies in Devuan. And sometimes I do want to know what packages are in ascii or ceres instead of the jessie that's specified in my sources.list file. Is it difficult to convert the packages.debian.org software that Deban uses? Or is it just a matter of too many things to do? -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Gnome, KDE?
On Tue, Jun 13, 2017 at 10:45:19AM +0200, Antony Stone wrote: > > Is there a short answer (or can you point me at docs) to the question "what > makes a DE dependent on systemd?" > The decision by the developers to use its interfaces instead of the traditional ones. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] human reaable package index
Debian has a useful page, https://www.debian.org/distrib/packages, which you get to via packages.debian.org Is there anything similar for devuan? https://www.devuan.org/distrib/packages does not work. Nor does https://packages.devuan.org/ -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Please backport opam 1.2.2 to jessie
opam 1.2.0 is broken in practical terms. It is no longer compatible with the current archive format. The developers are recommending migrating to opam 1.2.2. As far as I know, Debian and Devuan Jessie are the only distros still shipping opam 1.2.0. Would it be possible to provide 1.2.2 in Jessie, possibly in Jessie backports? I suppose opam-docs should be upgraded in the same way. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Upgrades to testing... Is DebianBug#864043 relevant to us?
On Sat, Jun 10, 2017 at 03:37:04PM +0100, KatolaZ wrote: > On Sat, Jun 10, 2017 at 08:37:26AM -0400, Hendrik Boom wrote: > > This is in response to a bug on the Debian documenation mailing list, > > but I'm replying to Devuan instead because some of it may be relevant > > here. > > > > I'm particularly concerned by the sentence at the end: > > > > > But I haven't heard anybody claiming to have > > > done any bug-free upgrades, so it's hard to be confident. > > > > I gather he's talking about upgrades from jessie to stretch. > > > > Are his problems caused by systemd issues? Or are we going to > > run afoul of them, too? Does Devuan have reports of clean > > upgrades to ascii? > > > > Hendrik, I have upgraded several Devuan Jessie machines to Devuan > ASCII, without problems, and I guess many people have done the > same. There are a few outstanding glitches due to gconf2 which should > be solved soon (this might hold back xfce, though). That's good news. -- hendrik > > My2Cents > > KatolaZ > > -- > [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - GLUGCT -- Freaknet Medialab ] > [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] > [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] > [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] > [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] EFI vs old BIOS booting
On Sat, Jun 10, 2017 at 11:50:02AM -0400, fsmithred wrote: > On 06/10/2017 08:22 AM, Hendrik Boom wrote: > > > > I have a old laptop with an EFI partition, but it has the old-style > > MBR partitioning structure. The EFI partition was there when it was > > new, together with a Windows XP system (which is no longer there). > > > > As far as I've been able to tell, the contents of that partition is > > garbage. It wasn't even a valid FAT-style file system, as is (or > > used to be?) required by specs. > > > > -- hendrik > > ___ > > That might be a good place to practice. If it's HP, you need to do special > things (bootloader must be named Microsoft-something-or-other). If it's > not HP, it still might not be made according to specs. But in theory, you > should be able to wipe the hard drive and install from the devuan > installation media. It was an ASUS EEEPC -- the first one that needed no proprietary device drivers. And it was possible the first model sold with Windows only. How absurd. > > I don't know if you would be able to plug your raid array into the laptop > and boot from the installed grub. I suppose if you're using uuid to > identify drives, it could work. Knowing that you could do that in an > emergency might give you some peace of mind. Laptop accesses the RAID via ethernet. The RAID is a Linux md device, and uses multiple SATA connections on the server. No such SATA connectons on the laptop. I might be able to connect SATA to the laptop via USB adapters, but that way the boot-time dynamics are starting to look completely different from what I'd have on the server. > > The efi partition should be fat32 with boot and esp flags. 200mb is more > than enough (unless your uefi firmware doesn't like it.) The grub-install > command (with no device named) knows what to do with it. If you use an > encrypted filesystem, you'll still need another partition for /boot. There is an encrypted filesystem, but it is mounted only occasionally, as needed. It's not relevant at boot time. -- hendrik > > fsmithred > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Upgrades to testing... Is DebianBug#864043 relevant to us?
This is in response to a bug on the Debian documenation mailing list, but I'm replying to Devuan instead because some of it may be relevant here. I'm particularly concerned by the sentence at the end: > But I haven't heard anybody claiming to have > done any bug-free upgrades, so it's hard to be confident. I gather he's talking about upgrades from jessie to stretch. Are his problems caused by systemd issues? Or are we going to run afoul of them, too? Does Devuan have reports of clean upgrades to ascii? -- hendrik On Sat, Jun 10, 2017 at 10:37:33AM +0100, Justin B Rye wrote: > [Resend - sorry, I thought mail to #864043 would go to the list] > > Niels Thykier wrote: > >> Meanwhile, my test upgrades so far (multiple trials on two different > >> machines) have consistently run into a couple of nasty undocumented > >> glitches - the upgrade disables my network connection (a restart of > >> networking.service that errors out), and the new version of X doesn't > >> respond to input devices until I install xserver-xorg-input-libinput. > >> I was hoping to find some mention of these issues in pending bug > >> reports, but it doesn't look like it. > > > > Have both of these issues been adequately documented by now? They sound > > like the kind of issues that ought to be documented (assuming they are a > > general problem). > > Sorry, no. This dist-upgrade has been the trickiest I've seen for a > decade or so, and most of the glitches aren't really documented. > > #1) X starts needing xserver-xorg-input-libinput, which will be pulled > in by default if you've got xserver-xorg-input-all installed, but not > otherwise (symptoms: input stops working). There's a new item about > libinput, but it basically fails to address this issue. > > #2) independently, startx stops working with similar symptoms, but > nothing I've found makes it work again, regardless of what else I > install (in particular, xserver-xorg-legacy makes no difference). > The only solution I've found is to switch to lightdm (which might as > well happen before the dist-upgrade). If nobody else is seeing this > then I don't even know what to report a bug against. > > #3) after an upgrade, ifupdown is marked as automatically installed > and no longer held in by dependencies, so things like aptitude want > to uninstall it as junk. Fortunately I'd noticed this was likely to > happen before I started doing upgrades, so I've never had my network > crippled by this. I suggested some text about this in > https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=864166#57 > > #4) at the end of the dist-upgrade needrestart restarts networking, > which fails - the wifi interface gives errors as if I'd defined two > gateway addresses. You can tell needrestart not to do this, but > fortunately it's fixed by a reboot, and a reboot was the next step > in the dist-upgrade anyway. However, it's easy to imagine ways this > could combine with the other items on this list to be a real problem. > I can't reproduce the issue outside the context of a dist-upgrade, so > again I don't know where the bug is exactly, and if nobody else is > seeing it then I don't know if it warrants being mentioned in the > release-notes. > > It's possible that #2 amd #4 only hit me because I'm doing my trial > upgrades on an old machine, and I'm not using a mainstream desktop > environment (just fvwm). But I haven't heard anybody claiming to have > done any bug-free upgrades, so it's hard to be confident. > -- > JBR with qualifications in linguistics, experience as a Debian > sysadmin, and probably no clue about this particular package > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] EFI vs old BIOS booting
On Fri, Jun 09, 2017 at 11:36:04PM -0400, fsmithred wrote: > On 06/08/2017 09:07 AM, Hendrik Boom wrote: > > > > I have a machine with both old-style MBR (fdisk) partitioned and > > gpt-style (needs gdisk) partitioned disks. It boots using grub or > > lilo. > > > > > > > How would booting from the GPT drives work? It's an old machine whose > > BIOS looks for an MBR. I may well be forced to do this is my legacy > > disk drives fail. > > > > If I were to transplant my GPT-formatted drives into a modern machine > > that expects an EFI boot, would it just work? Or would I have to do > > something major -- like repartition -- that puts my data at risk? > > > > -- hendrik > > ___ > > > Your old machine may or may not boot from a gpt drive. It is possible to > put an mbr bootloader on a gpt drive. I've done that a couple of times, > and one of the times it (or I) messed things up and had to repartition the > drive. There is the so-called protective MBR.. I suppose that could be the start of a boot procedure. > > To boot your gpt drives on uefi hardware, you would need an efi partition > with a bootloader. The efi partition is usually the first partition of the > first hard drive. I haven't tried putting it in a different location. An > easy solution would be to add a hard drive (or even a usb) and install > enough of a system to use it to boot and add your existing system to the > boot menu. I have a old laptop with an EFI partition, but it has the old-style MBR partitioning structure. The EFI partition was there when it was new, together with a Windows XP system (which is no longer there). As far as I've been able to tell, the contents of that partition is garbage. It wasn't even a valid FAT-style file system, as is (or used to be?) required by specs. > > Read this before you play with uefi - > http://www.rodsbooks.com/efi-bootloaders/index.html That looks like a very useful set of pages. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] EFI vs old BIOS booting
On Wed, Jun 07, 2017 at 03:27:30PM -0400, Haines Brown wrote: > The problem was more worked around than resolved. > > After having no grub modules with an installation on a new disk, whether > DVD or netinst ISO, I knew the problem wasn't with the disk. I installed > Devuan Jessie more or less successfully on a new disk without the old > disk being connected. Then I reconnected the old disk and now can boot > either operating system successfully. > > If anyone has an idea of what might be the problem, I'd appreciate > knowing. Perhaps with both disks attached, the presence of one > preoccupies the SATA port needed by the other. > > Incidentally, the key on which the ISO is installed names itself UEFI. I > have both UEFI and legacy selected in BIOS. If I have just legacy, > nothing boots. This brings up a related issue. I have a machine with both old-style MBR (fdisk) partitioned and gpt-style (needs gdisk) partitioned disks. It boots using grub or lilo. Grub from a boot record on an MBR-partitioned disk and LILO from a boot record on a floppy drive. (I have lots of backup boot floppies in case one goes wrong) In either case, /boot and / are on software RAID partitions on the GPT drives. The GPT drives have to be GPT drives because they are large. The MBR drives are legacy drives from the old days. How would booting from the GPT drives work? It's an old machine whose BIOS looks for an MBR. I may well be forced to do this is my legacy disk drives fail. If I were to transplant my GPT-formatted drives into a modern machine that expects an EFI boot, would it just work? Or would I have to do something major -- like repartition -- that puts my data at risk? -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Onscreen keyboard
On Tue, Jun 06, 2017 at 02:41:04PM +0200, Joachim Fahrner wrote: > Hi all, > can someone recommend an onscreen keyboard (for use in tablet mode) with low > dependencies and no systemd? There used to be one that was part of X. Is it still around? -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] lost ability to execute
On Sun, Jun 04, 2017 at 10:42:23AM -0400, Haines Brown wrote: > Another anomaly is what when I boot the old devuan, the boot goes to > recovery mode despite what is selected in the GRUB menu. A control-D > continues the boot normally. It showed up only fairly recently. But > since I seldom reboot it, I didn't worry much about the issue. The two > disks are almost the same, one being a bit older than the other. My > Debian is on /dev/sdb and I'm installing to /dev/sda, I wonder whether > the mongrolized install might be not be some kind of cross over between > the two devices caused by BIOS. One trick I've used is to place an identification file in the root of each file system. Such as /I-am-old-devian in /dev/sdb and /I-am-new0devuan in /dev/sda. It might help tell them apart independent of BIOS renumbering. Or maybe you're booting a kernel from the old system with a root file system from the new one? I once had two Debians on my system, a stable one and a testing one, and I messed up my /etc/fstab on one of them so i had a root partition from one mounted with a /usr from another. Total screwup when I did a routine security upgrade. Hard to figure out, because a lot of packages worked with mixed system versions. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [Caml-list] [rfc] deprecating opam 1.2.0
Re: The version of opam in Debian and DEvuan Jessie is being officially deprecated, becuse there are serious problems with it. Let me start with the relevant quote from the ocaml mailing list: On Fri, Jun 02, 2017 at 02:31:01PM +0100, Anil Madhavapeddy wrote: > On 2 Jun 2017, at 13:16, Hendrik Boom wrote: > > > > On Fri, Jun 02, 2017 at 11:09:37AM +0100, Anil Madhavapeddy wrote: > >> > >> ### Who is still using opam 1.2.0? > >> > >> I found that the Debian Jessie (stable) release includes 1.2.0, and this > >> is probably the last major distribution including it. The [Debian > >> Stretch](https://wiki.debian.org/DebianStretch) is due to become the > >> stable release on the 17th June 2017, and so at that point there will > >> hopefully be no distributions actively sending opam 1.2.0 out. > >> > >> Is there anyone else that is still packaging 1.2.0? Please comment here > >> if so, and we should move them away. > > > > Yes. There's Devuan stable. It is Debian without systemd, and it > > will take a while for it to catch up when Debian relabels their > > releases. > > > > I'll ask about it on the devuan mailing list. Perhaps they can > > accelerate the opam-related packages. I don't know whether that will > > be compatible with their automated workflow. > > Thanks for checking, Hendrik. It may be worth mentioning to them that > OPAM 1.2.0 is already broken in practical terms (unless the repository > it defaults to is rolled back), and so we encourage backports to 1.2.2 > in this case. So perhaps we should update opam and related packages, either in Devuan Jessie itself, or, as suggested, in backports. -- hendrik > > regards, > Anil ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] scanner dependencies
On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 01:55:51PM +0200, Adam Borowski wrote: > On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 08:16:28PM +0900, Olaf Meeuwissen wrote: > > Florian Zieboll writes: > > > IIRC, a sane developer had replied to that thread and said > > > that also saned just checks for the existence of libsystemd0 but does > > > not need it at all. So the "dependency" is null and could be removed. > > > > You remember correctly ;-) > > > > It's not a "dependency", it's a compile-time option. To get rid of the > > Depends:, you will need to drop libsystemd-dev (and maybe dh-systemd) > > from the debian/control file and rebuild the package. That's all. > > Which actually are (Build-)Dependencies, that turn into actual Dependencies > once built. But indeed, like for the vast majority of infested packages, > it's all it takes -- most upstream developers are not evil, and DTRT when > systemd headers are not available. Even if they're systemd apologists > themselves, many projects want to work on BSD and so on. > > A debdiff attached, compile-tested only (I have no scanner hardware). Sounds like sonething that should go into Devuan jessie as a bug fix. After someone tests it, of course. -- hendrik > diff -Nru sane-backends-1.0.25/debian/changelog > sane-backends-1.0.25/debian/changelog > --- sane-backends-1.0.25/debian/changelog 2017-05-21 10:04:48.0 > +0200 > +++ sane-backends-1.0.25/debian/changelog 2017-05-29 13:24:39.0 > +0200 > @@ -1,3 +1,10 @@ > +sane-backends (1.0.25-4.1.0nosystemd1) unstable; urgency=medium > + > + * Non-maintainer upload. > + * Cure systemd infestation. > + > + -- Adam Borowski Mon, 29 May 2017 13:24:39 +0200 > + > sane-backends (1.0.25-4.1) unstable; urgency=medium > >* Non-maintainer upload. > diff -Nru sane-backends-1.0.25/debian/control > sane-backends-1.0.25/debian/control > --- sane-backends-1.0.25/debian/control 2017-05-21 10:04:48.0 > +0200 > +++ sane-backends-1.0.25/debian/control 2017-05-29 13:23:16.0 > +0200 > @@ -8,7 +8,6 @@ > autoconf, > chrpath, > debhelper (>= 10), > - dh-systemd, > gettext, > libavahi-client-dev, > libcam-dev [kfreebsd-any], > @@ -17,7 +16,6 @@ > libieee1284-3-dev [!hurd-i386], > libjpeg-dev, > libltdl3-dev, > - libsystemd-dev [linux-any], > libtiff-dev, > libusb-1.0-0-dev [!hurd-i386], > pkg-config, > diff -Nru sane-backends-1.0.25/debian/rules sane-backends-1.0.25/debian/rules > --- sane-backends-1.0.25/debian/rules 2017-05-21 10:04:48.0 +0200 > +++ sane-backends-1.0.25/debian/rules 2017-05-29 13:24:34.0 +0200 > @@ -29,7 +29,7 @@ > endif > > %: > - dh $@ --parallel --with autotools_dev,systemd > + dh $@ --parallel --with autotools_dev > > override_dh_auto_configure: > autoconf > @@ -130,9 +130,6 @@ > override_dh_installinit-arch: > dh_installinit -psane-utils --name=saned > > -override_dh_systemd_enable-arch: > - dh_systemd_enable --no-enable saned.socket > - > override_dh_strip-arch: > dh_strip --dbg-package=libsane-dbg > > diff -Nru sane-backends-1.0.25/debian/sane-utils.install > sane-backends-1.0.25/debian/sane-utils.install > --- sane-backends-1.0.25/debian/sane-utils.install2017-05-21 > 10:04:48.0 +0200 > +++ sane-backends-1.0.25/debian/sane-utils.install2017-05-29 > 13:24:22.0 +0200 > @@ -8,5 +8,3 @@ > usr/share/man/man1/scanimage.1 > usr/share/man/man8/saned.8 > tools/umax_pp usr/bin > -debian/saned.socket lib/systemd/system > -debian/saned@.service lib/systemd/system > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] trash
On Sun, May 28, 2017 at 11:42:32AM +0200, Florian Zieboll wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA256 > > On Sat, 27 May 2017 16:49:39 -0400 > Hendrik Boom wrote: > > > Anyone know what subsystems put files and directories in > > ~/.local/share/Trash ? > > > Do you have gvfs installed? gvfs-trash is at least one possible > culprit. (Not sure if there are other components to access these "trash > piles" directly, i.e. not via "thrash://"). Yes, I do. It's one of the few things that depeds on libsystemd0. Along with gvfs-daemons, packagekit, packagekit-tools, and sane-utils. I've been wondering if I need those. The only one I have an idea what it's for is sane-utils. Presumably access to scanners. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Newbies threaten our purity :-)
On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 05:02:12PM -0700, Bruce Perens wrote: > On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 4:16 PM, Hendrik Boom > wrote: > > > > > bash wasn't the original shell. > > > I really did start on Version 6 Unix. I think Version 7 was out by then, > but the NYIT Graphics Lab didn't ever switch their PDP-11s to it. I think it was version 3 I started on, on a PDP-11 with about 48K or RAM. I'm not sure any more. It was in 1974 or early 1975. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Newbies threaten our purity :-)
On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 03:56:09PM -0700, Bruce Perens wrote: > On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 2:11 PM, Rick Moen wrote: > > > I wrote: > > > > > Personally, I find that bash makes a fabulous file manager, along with > > > its friends find, awk, sed, cut, etc. > > > You young whipper snapper! Bash is for Stallmanite commies! The True > Experienced Unix System Admin compiles the original Bourne shell from > Bourne's original Algol-like macros, rather than the travesty of C (the > Bournegol documentation is at http://oldhome.schmorp.de/marc/bournegol.html, > not that real men _need_ documentation). bash wasn't the original shell. Unix already had a shell when Steve Bourne was still developing Algol 68 C on an IBM mainframe! -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] trash
On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 11:04:13PM +0200, info at smallinnovations dot nl wrote: > On 27-05-17 22:49, Hendrik Boom wrote: > >Anyone know what subsystems put files and directories in > >~/.local/share/Trash ? > > > >I just found something like 443 gigabytes in there. > > > >-- hendrik > > > >___ > >Dng mailing list > >Dng@lists.dyne.org > >https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > > Nice if you missed it otherwise annoying. Thunar puts deleted files there, > at least on my system with XFCE4 it does. I use xfce but not thunar. Perhaps some other thing I use puts stuff there. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] trash
On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 02:26:14PM -0700, Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting info at smallinnovations dot nl (i...@smallinnovations.nl): > > > Personally, I like mc for convenience when working from the > > commandline because of its splitscreen mode. > > mc (Midnight Commander) is very, very handy -- and might be the best > choice for operations where visually tagging files is the most efficient > way to specify them. It even supports regex. The big trouble with mc is that it's a frequent typo for mv. I invoked it by accident enough that I had to banish it from the system. Yes, I think that's one of the stupidest reasons for not using a package. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] trash
On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 02:03:49PM -0700, Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting Hendrik Boom (hend...@topoi.pooq.com): > > > Anyone know what subsystems put files and directories in > > ~/.local/share/Trash ? > > > > I just found something like 443 gigabytes in there. > > I'll bet you use something like Nautilus or other graphical 'file > manager', right? On those, deletion isn't implemented as deletion, but > rather what you just stumbled across. No, I don't. But it may have snuck onto my system sometime in the last decade or so. And been removed again. I'm a gnome, kde, and now systemd refugee. I feel at home here on Devuan. But there may well be some applications that depend on parts of ght gnome and kde libraries, and they my well have this dysfunction. I'm just wondering what they are. > > Personally, I find that bash makes a fabulous file manager, along with > its friends find, awk, sed, cut, etc. cp, mv, ls, and rm is what I usually use. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] trash
Anyone know what subsystems put files and directories in ~/.local/share/Trash ? I just found something like 443 gigabytes in there. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] upgrade and dist-upgrade
On Sat, May 13, 2017 at 11:03:18AM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: > On Sat, 13 May 2017 01:06:38 -1000 > Joel Roth wrote: > > > Long before three weeks ago. I don't usually upgrade or > > dist-upgrade unless there is some particular need. > > Probably I'm not alone, even if that is not considered > > best practice. > > I never dist-upgrade. From what I hear, it breaks things. If I feel the > need to dist-upgrade, it's probably time to back up, reformat the > disks, and clean-install a later version. Do apt and aptitude have the same meanings for upgrade and dist-upgrade? Or is there a subtle difference between the two tools? -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] cleaning before upgrade
On Sun, May 14, 2017 at 08:08:51AM +0200, Didier Kryn wrote: > > apt-get dist-upgrade is what's necessary to change release - as the name > means -, eg Wheezy to Jessie or Jessie to Ascii. This is why it should > rarely be used, and only after carefully editing sources.list. It's a jump > into the new. Dist-upgrade always worked fine for me and I consider this as > one of the greatest achievements of Debian's package management technology. > > I would recommend some clean-up before the jump. For example I would > uninstall things like mysql server which doesn't recognize any priviledge to > root. Also Debian tended to install a lot of packages the user doesn't want > and even doesn't know, so better get them out before the dist-upgrade This can be difficult. There are oodles of packages. It can be hard to know which ones you are actually using, especially if they are libraries, or they are invoked using an icon on a so-called desktop. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] reportbug default bts
On Sat, May 13, 2017 at 07:36:32PM +0200, Arnt Karlsen wrote: > > ..I came in woody time from the cold dropped Red Hat 7.3, I've > dist-upgraded from woody and sarge to sid/wheezy, and from lenny > to sid/Jessie. Only reason I left SuSE-5.2 (It rocked!), was > I didn't know how to do "insmod -v sb16" to get audio. ;o) Th upgrade from Debian/wheezy to Devuan/jessie was the smoothest I've ever experienced. Nonetheless, just in case, I started by making a copy of the entire wheezy system in separate partitions on the same hard drive and making sure the copy booted and ran properlym just in case sething would go wrong. Nothing did -- this time. I have had problems upgrading Debian in the past. Being able to reboot to the old system was a godsend. I don't remember all the reasons for failure in the past. one of them was running out of space in the partition used for storing package files. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] sane-utils depends on libsystemd0
On Tue, May 09, 2017 at 04:10:26PM +0300, Hleb Valoshka wrote: > On 5/9/17, Hendrik Boom wrote: > >> > I thought Sane was a bare application. Does it involve also some > >> > kind of > >> > server to "need" socket-activation and logging? > >> > > >> > >> http://linuxcommand.org/man_pages/saned8.html > > > > So... does sane need saned? Do the scanners have to initiate communication > > with > > the computer for which there always has to be a daemon running? > > Hi Hendrik, could you build and test the package from > https://github.com/375gnu/sane-backends ? I've cleaned it from > systemd. Not really. I communicate with my scanner by carrying files across on a USB stick, completely bypassing SANE. I wouldn't know how to test it in this context. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] sane-utils depends on libsystemd0
On Tue, May 09, 2017 at 11:01:45AM +0200, Tomasz Torcz wrote: > On Tue, May 09, 2017 at 10:47:08AM +0200, Didier Kryn wrote: > > Le 08/05/2017 10:42, Tomasz Torcz a écrit : > > > On Mon, May 08, 2017 at 09:41:06AM +0200, Joachim Fahrner wrote: > > > > I found another package that depends on libsystemd0: sane-utils. > > > > Would it be difficult to remove this dependency, or is there a valid > > > > reason > > > > for having this? > > >It easy to remove, there's a configure switch: > > > https://anonscm.debian.org/cgit/sane/sane-backends.git/commit/?id=c4ae327be5ccf762fe7bb3c1e7f12e13f6b6a1d1 > > > > > >The integration of logging and socket-activation in systemd > > > environments > > > seem to be optional: > > > https://anonscm.debian.org/cgit/sane/sane-backends.git/commit/?id=39545b1b90dd9c9e12c20f02cf4ead3afac20de9 > > > > > > > I thought Sane was a bare application. Does it involve also some kind of > > server to "need" socket-activation and logging? > > > > http://linuxcommand.org/man_pages/saned8.html So... does sane need saned? Do the scanners have to initiate communication with the computer for which there always has to be a daemon running? -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] GNU licenses, which are free?
On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 08:18:57AM -0700, Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting Hendrik Boom (hend...@topoi.pooq.com): > > > I wrote a free game > > (http://topoi.pooq.com/hendrik/dv/free/fun/wander/index.html) once > > as part of the liberated pixel cup challenge > > (http://lpc.opengameart.org/), and I can't put the images > > into the executable as initialized data because of their licenses. > > You uniquely _can_ do so -- because, as creator/copyright-owner, unlike > everyone else you are not possessing instances of that work under the > terms of a licence from someone else. You own the copyright outright, > and are free to do with the work(s) as you wish, including if you desire > issuing new public instances of the work(s) under different licence > terms. True, except that I own the copyright on the code, not on the images. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] GNU licenses, which are free?
On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 11:47:53AM +0200, Miroslav Rovis wrote: > > Oh, no, not the "Open Source Initiative"! Richard Matthew Stallman > stills very often goes out of the way to explain that Open Source is not > really free! Even the GDFL (Gnu free documentation license) has restrictions on copying, with their "invariant sections". This is why a lot of GNU documentation is distributed as nonfree by Debian. Although not designed for the purpose, I would advise licencing documentation and media under the same licence as the code (in *addition* to any other possibly more approriate licence like CC or GFDL) in case some future modifier of the code would find it convenient to include it as part of the executable. I wrote a free game (http://topoi.pooq.com/hendrik/dv/free/fun/wander/index.html) once as part of the liberated pixel cup challenge (http://lpc.opengameart.org/), and I can't put the images into the executable as initialized data because of their licenses. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] apulse in experimental
On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 10:55:57AM +1000, Ozi Traveller wrote: > Hi KatolaZ > > Yes it works in Jessie! > > Thanks > > Ozi > > On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 6:42 AM, KatolaZ wrote: > > > the apulse package will never "hit stable", if by stable you mean > > Devuan Jessie. Devuan Jessie will only have packages which are already > > present in Debian Jessie, with matching versions, with all the systemd > > dependencies removed. All the development will happen starting from > > ascii. But if it's not going to be in Jessie, perhaps it could be backported to Jessie? -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] problem installing postgresql
In the middle of installing several packages using apt-get install postgresql ruby-sass I get a message. Setting up postgresql-common (165+deb8u2) ... supported-versions: WARNING! Unknown distribution: devuan /usr/share/postgresql-common/supported-versions: 64: /usr/share/postgresql-common/supported-versions: ID_LIKE: parameter not set /usr/share/postgresql-common/supported-versions: 67: /usr/share/postgresql-common/supported-versions: ID_LIKE: parameter not set Please submit this as a bug report to your distribution. Adding user postgres to group ssl-cert Evidently postgresql doesn't know about devuan. Could it be because I don't have a /etc/debian_version file, but only a /etc/devuan_version file? Or does it discover I'm using devuan by other means? -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Another minor Debian vestige
I just installed lighttpd, and it properly served its front page, which tells me I should configure the system to show my web content instead of the frot page. But the front page also says, > This is a placeholder page installed by the Debian release of the > Lighttpd server package. > > This computer has installed the Debian GNU/Linux operating system, but > it has nothing to do with the Debian Project. Please do not contact > the Debian Project about it. > > If you find a bug in this Lighttpd package, or in Lighttpd itself, > please file a bug report on it. Instructions on doing this, and the > list of known bugs of this package, can be found in the Debian Bug > Tracking System. This is, of course not quite correct. My conputer runs Devuan GNU/Linux, not Debian. It is probably not worth fixing this unless we have other reasons to open up lighttpd. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] tiny service state api [WAS: Fwd: init system agnosticism]
On Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 12:33:06PM +0200, marc wrote: > the kernel thesedays > allows one to delegate the "default-child-collector" function of > init to other processes - that is what the container infrastructure uses. Which seems to be an effective rebuttal against the argument for systemd being a universal service supervisor as pid 1. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] tiny service state api [WAS: Fwd: init system agnosticism]
On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 09:57:38PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: > On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 19:22:36 -0400 > Hendrik Boom wrote: > > > On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 05:04:18PM -0400, Hendrik Boom wrote: > > > On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 09:59:36PM +0200, Enrico Weigelt, metux IT > > > consult wrote: > > > > > By the way: maybe we should write an RFC draft for the whole > > > > issue ... > > > > > > Looked for a relevant RFC. But found only this: > > > https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/kernel-team/2008-December/003628.html > > > [RFC] [PATCH] notify init daemon when children are reparented to it > > > > > > But this doesn't seem to be quite what we want, and I can't say I > > > have enough context to understand it. > > > > That so-calledRFC seems to be very much in the style of > > requiring the init process to be intimately involved in process > > supervision actions, which is a strong constraint on what init > > systems can be chosen. And, I suspect, an init system that is so > > involved is a potential tool to gradually take over the entire OS, as > > systemd has done. > > And, in fact, being written in 2008, that so called rfc might have been > either the excuse or the inspiration for systemd. > > The "rfc" suffers from a perfectionism related to bikeshedding. Heaven > forbid there's ever a zombie or a process with a 'T' in the ps status > field! We simply MUST make a perfect init or supervisor system: Nothing > less will do. And while we're indulging our perfection, it's important > to remember that simplicity not be a priority at all. We will remain > oblivious to the fact that complexity and lack of encapsulation > creates flaws far worse than the flaws we're moving heaven and earth > to get rid of. And for gosh sakes, let's forget the facts: > > THE FACTS > > * sysvinit is perfectly workable for the vast majority of users, or at > least it was until the systemd people influenced the "upstreams" to > build in code to fail with sysvinit. > > * sysvinit plus daemontools is perfectly workable for almost all users > who are capable of writing a short run file and creating a symlink. > Daemontools suffers from none of the problems hand-wrung by the > "rfc", and indeed in a daemontools world (or at least as a runit > world which I assume is the same), the only process whose parent is > PID1 is runsvdir (equivalent of daemontools svscanboot). On my > computer, the executables reparented to PID1 are all stuff spawned by > dmenu or UMENU, as well as the gvim executable, which doubleforks > itself automatically. More on this later... > > * sysvinit plus OpenRC is perfectly workable for most users who don't > want daemon respawning. > > * sysvinit plus OpenRC plus daemontools is perfectly workable for users > who want some daemons respawnable. > > * A PID1 consisting of an rc file that somehow respawns the virtual > terminals, background-runs any daemons necessary, and then ends in a > loop that listens for and handles signals to PID1, is perfectly > workable for a person operating a small, special purpose computer. If > I knew how to respawn virtual terminals I'd do just that as a > demonstration, but respawning gettys is incredibly difficult: It > often kills the process that tried to respawn it. > > * The 83 line Suckless Init spawning an rc file is perfectly workable > for someone wanting simplicity and the ultimately simple PID1. > > Bottom line, all this bikeshedding perfectionism is unnecessary unless > you're a big commercial company trying to turn Free Software into a > cash cow by complexifying it. All the problems were solved long ago, or > are easily solvable by simple, user space addons needing no > modification to the likes of sysvinit, daemontools, runit, s6, Epoch, > OpenRC and the like. > > For instance, I have a real problem with zombies and T status processes > created by my use of dmenu and UMENU. It wouldn't be particularly > difficult for me to build a userspace daemontools analog, where one > process parented to PID1 (my analog of svscanboot) would spin around > listening for commands and/or scripts to run in such a way that IT was > the parent, or perhaps via analogs of svscan that don't respawn. I > could then modify dmenu and UMENU to message my daemon in order to run > commands. Notice the idea in this paragraph requires not one > modification to whatever "init system" you're using. And it's simple > enough that even I could implement it, given the time. > > There&
[DNG] Some links found at a report on a Debian bug squashing party
Recently I failed to attend a Debian bug squashing party here in Montreal because I was otherwise engaged that day. If I had attended I would have learned something about Debian packaging, which could perhaps have been useful here. But the report on the bug squashing party contains links to the documents that were to clue the attendees in to Debian packaging. I therefore refer those interested to that report: https://anarc.at/blog/2017-04-09-montreal-bsp-report/ with links to https://anarc.at/software/debian-development/ https://wiki.debian.org/sbuild Also: Montreal is the location of the next Debconf: https://debconf17.debconf.org/ And at the footer of the bug squshing paty report, there's a link to concerns about ambiguous wording in the new terms of service at Github: https://anarc.at/blog/2017-03-22-github-tos-update/ -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] tiny service state api [WAS: Fwd: init system agnosticism]
On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 05:04:18PM -0400, Hendrik Boom wrote: > On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 09:59:36PM +0200, Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult > wrote: > > On 15.04.2017 19:50, Steve Litt wrote: > > > > > About my characterizations: "Baroque" is a relative thing. What I wrote > > > was based on "why would you not simply use a process supervisor like > > > systemd?" If a person has a reason not to use such a supervisor, and in > > > fact the whole OpenRC init system seems to be based on such objections > > > to supervisors, then the six system call solution you outline > > > transitions from "a whole bunch of needless stuff" to "hey, that's a > > > pretty darn kool solution." So your solution is baroque only so far as > > > one enjoys using daemontools or similar. > > > > If one doesn't want a supervisor, why not just using something like > > start-stop-daemon ? IIRC, it should handle that quite well. > > > > I wonder why that general task of daemonizing cant just be done in a > > generic separate program and left out of the individual daemons. > > So, everybody can decide on this own how to actually start/manage > > the daemons - some use a supervisor, some just call via a daemonizer > > program from init scripts, etc, etc. > > > > By the way: maybe we should write an RFC draft for the whole issue ... > > Looked for a relevant RFC. But found only this: > https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/kernel-team/2008-December/003628.html > [RFC] [PATCH] notify init daemon when children are reparented to it > > But this doesn't seem to be quite what we want, and I can't say I have > enough context to understand it. That so-calledRFC seems to be very much in the style of requiring the init process to be intimately involved in process supervision actions, which is a strong constraint on what init systems can be chosen. And, I suspect, an init system that is so involved is a potential tool to gradually take over the entire OS, as systemd has done. Of course, even with such an init system, it's possible to use the other mechanisms we have been discussing here to enable specific daemons to ignore the init system. -- hendrik > > It seemms to follow the practice of creating two processes for a > daemon, a parent and a child, and then orphaning the child. > This is not what we seem to be discusison here, and leads to > init having nontrivial ongoing work. > > And although it says [RFC] in the title, it doesn't seem to be an > official RFC. > > -- hendrik > > > > > > > --mtx > > ___ > > Dng mailing list > > Dng@lists.dyne.org > > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] tiny service state api [WAS: Fwd: init system agnosticism]
On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 09:59:36PM +0200, Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult wrote: > On 15.04.2017 19:50, Steve Litt wrote: > > > About my characterizations: "Baroque" is a relative thing. What I wrote > > was based on "why would you not simply use a process supervisor like > > systemd?" If a person has a reason not to use such a supervisor, and in > > fact the whole OpenRC init system seems to be based on such objections > > to supervisors, then the six system call solution you outline > > transitions from "a whole bunch of needless stuff" to "hey, that's a > > pretty darn kool solution." So your solution is baroque only so far as > > one enjoys using daemontools or similar. > > If one doesn't want a supervisor, why not just using something like > start-stop-daemon ? IIRC, it should handle that quite well. > > I wonder why that general task of daemonizing cant just be done in a > generic separate program and left out of the individual daemons. > So, everybody can decide on this own how to actually start/manage > the daemons - some use a supervisor, some just call via a daemonizer > program from init scripts, etc, etc. > > By the way: maybe we should write an RFC draft for the whole issue ... Looked for a relevant RFC. But found only this: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/kernel-team/2008-December/003628.html [RFC] [PATCH] notify init daemon when children are reparented to it But this doesn't seem to be quite what we want, and I can't say I have enough context to understand it. It seemms to follow the practice of creating two processes for a daemon, a parent and a child, and then orphaning the child. This is not what we seem to be discusison here, and leads to init having nontrivial ongoing work. And although it says [RFC] in the title, it doesn't seem to be an official RFC. -- hendrik > > > --mtx > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Fwd: init system agnosticism [WAS: how to remove libsystemd0 from a live-running debian desktop system]
On Fri, Apr 14, 2017 at 09:06:13AM +0200, Jaromil wrote: > dear Hendrik, > > On Wed, 12 Apr 2017, Hendrik Boom wrote: > > > Well, the official policy, insofar as there is one, appears to be that > [...] > > thanks for writing down such a clear statement on the matter, its You are very welcome! -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Fwd: init system agnosticism [WAS: how to remove libsystemd0 from a live-running debian desktop system]
On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 10:57:09AM +0200, Didier Kryn wrote: ... ... > > Systemd is not an init system; it is an operating system. Devuan runs a > Gnu/Linux OS which is not Systemd. Even if the two are using almost the same > kernel, they aren't the same OS. The most typical effect of this is that > many packages have different compilation options depending on which OS they > are to run. I've started talking about systemd/Linux. But I think that calling it systemd/linux overstates its incompatibility. For now, anyway. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Fwd: init system agnosticism [WAS: how to remove libsystemd0 from a live-running debian desktop system]
On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 08:13:46PM -0400, Dan Purgert wrote: > > > On 04/12/2017 11:58 AM, Steve Litt wrote: > > [...] > > Systemd actively sabotages the ability to replace it, whereas no > > other inits do that (that I know of). It would be stupid of Devuan to > > allow systemd into their software. > > Wouldn't it also be kind of undoing the whole reason that the original > guys split off the Debian crowd? > Well, the official policy, insofar as there is one, appears to be that Devuan is about choice. Therefore, it should make available (1) the choice to do without systemd and (2) the choice to use systemd. We split off because Debian has made it difficult to avoid systemd. Given our limited manpower, we focus in (1). We support potential devuan users who wish option (2) by having them use Debian's installer, Debian's packages, and Debian's mailing lists, all available directly from Debian's mirrors. -- hendrik > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] gvfs depends on libsystemd0
On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 12:55:37PM +0100, KatolaZ wrote: > > OK, but you would agree that, if you find yourself in such an > "unprotected enviroment", there is not much difference between typing > the root password and typing the password of a user who can become > root by "sudo su". This is true only if you configure sudo to allow the use of su. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] gvfs depends on libsystemd0
On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 03:27:22PM +0200, aitor_czr wrote: > > and udisks works without udev and libsystemd0... thanks to vdev :) What is the status of vdev? Is it packages and inthe repositories yet? Is it too much to hope it;s available in jessie? -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] gvfs depends on libsystemd0
On Sun, Apr 09, 2017 at 12:58:27PM +0200, Joachim Fahrner wrote: > > Thanks for that hint. SpaceFM in conjunction with udevil is great. So I can > get rid of this ugly gvfs. gfvs is broken by design, because it creates a > ~/.gvfs directory which is not accessible by root. So every backup tool > fails when accessing this directory. > > It is untypical for Unix systems that root cannot access everything on the > local machine. I'm wondering how they achieve that, it should not be > possible at all. I don't know how gvfs does it, but it can be done with a user file system. It happens all the time when I use sshfs. An ssh file system allows only the user who mounted it to access it. Since sshfs, once it gains control, can do as it pleases, if can simply refuse to allow opeations under whatever criteria are coded into it. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] message from rdiff-backup
On Tue, Apr 04, 2017 at 10:25:02AM +0200, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote: > That message means that the file changed during backup. > > Arnt Thanks. Since /var/dhcp contains mostly transient information, I won't worry about it. Yes, I know restoring /var wholesale may be problematical. I back it up more for reference in case I need some of it. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] message from rdiff-backup
During a backup I got the following messages: Found interrupted initial backup. Removing... UpdateError lib/dhcp/dhcpd.leases Updated mirror temp file /usbackup/backup-by-rdiff/april/var/lib/dhcp/rdiff-backup.tmp.9233 does not match source UpdateError log/btmp Updated mirror temp file /usbackup/backup-by-rdiff/april/var/log/rdiff-backup.tmp.25553 does not match source Anyone know what the Update Error means? I was backing up rdiff-backup --exclude-other-filesystems --preserve-numerical-ids --exclude-sockets --exclude /var/mail r...@topoi.pooq.com::/var /usbackup/backup-by-rdiff/april/var -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] defective RAID
On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 08:06:15PM +0200, k...@aspodata.se wrote: > Hendrik Boom: > ... > > > If you have /boot on a raid-mirror on all your disks (pref. as first > > > partition) there is no problem making lilo work. Since then it > > > doesn't matter which disk it is booting from, it will load the kernel > > > and possible an initrd/initramfs if you want it to. > > > > Except that the raid-mirror has been missing for some time, and the > > two copies of /boot are no longer the same. Reattaching it would > > yield two very similar file systems and lilo will thus have a choice > > between two different places to boot from. If the two copies of the > > RAID were properly sync'd up you would be right -- there would be no > > problem. > ... > > Boot with the disk with the newest version of /boot, connect/power up > your disk with the older version of /boot, then add the old partition > to your md-raid mirror. The "old" partition will be automatically > updated. Didn't that work ? Is it really safe to hotplug a SATA disk? Will Devuan recognise it prperly when I do that? -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] defective RAID
On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 05:20:25PM +0200, k...@aspodata.se wrote: > Hendrik Boom: > ... > > lilo doesn't do RAID assemby, as far as I know. It just starts up > > with a bunch of blocks at a fixed offset from an identified partition, > > identified by UUID, and there's two of these. Now I guess at boot > > time, it may always pick the right one, or always pick the wrong one, > > or a random one. > > If you have /boot on a raid-mirror on all your disks (pref. as first > partition) there is no problem making lilo work. Since then it > doesn't matter which disk it is booting from, it will load the kernel > and possible an initrd/initramfs if you want it to. Except that the raid-mirror has been missing for some time, and the two copies of /boot are no longer the same. Reattaching it would yield two very similar file systems and lilo will thus have a choice between two different places to boot from. If the two copies of the RAID were properly sync'd up you would be right -- there would be no problem. > > Since /boot is typically very small, there is not any big problem > making this happen. Which is why I put /boot on a small mirror RAID, not realising that for reasons beyond my control, one drive would become disconnected for far too long to remain synchronised. > > /// > > If you have theese set in your kernel: > > CONFIG_MD_AUTODETECT=y > CONFIG_MD_RAID1=y (or whatever raid level you want) > > the kernel will autodetect your old style (metadata 0.90) raid > partitions. So if your / is on such a raid, the kernel will mount > / without the need of an initrd/initramfs. > > The old metatdata limits you to one filesystem per md-raid device. Indeed, I have one RAID with old metadata with only /boot on it. Another with new metadata containing many LVM partitions. > > Regards, > /Karl Hammar Thank you. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] defective RAID
On Sun, Mar 26, 2017 at 07:03:53PM +0200, Didier Kryn wrote: > Le 25/03/2017 20:17, Hendrik Boom a écrit : > >I have two twinned RAIDs which are working just fine although the > >second drive for both RAIDs is missing. After all, that's what it is > >supposed to do -- work when things are broken.. > > > >The RAIDs are mdadm-style Linux software RAIDs. One contains a /boot > >partition; the other an LVM partition that contains all the other > >partitions in the system, including the root partition, /usr, /home, > >and the like. > > > >Both drives should contain the mdadm signature information, and the > >same consistent file systems. > > > >Each RAID is spread, in duplicate, across the same two hard drives. > > > > > >EXCEPT, of course, that one of the drives is now missing. It was > >physically disconnected by accident while the machine was off, and > >owing to circumstances, has remained disconnected for a significant > >amunt of time. > > > >This means that the missing drive has everything needed to boot the > >system, with valid mdadm signatures, and valid file systems, except, > >of course, that its file system is obsolete. > > > >If I were to manage to reconnect the absent drive, how would the > >boot-time RAID assembly work? (/boot is on the RAID). Would it be > >able to figure out which of the two drives is up-to-date, and > >therefore which one to consider defective and not use? > > > >Do I need to wipe the missing drive completely before I connect it? > >(I have another machine to do this on, using a USB-to-SATA interface). > > > > > Hi Hendrik. > > I several times had to replace hard drives in arrays of various raid > levels, and I'm very confident in mdadm. mdadm knows the partitions by their > uuids, not by their device names. > > As far as I can guess, it records the status of the array on every disk, > and I also imagine the broken partitions are marked as broken, which allows > it to look for the raid status on a good partition; this would explain why > its knowledge of the status is safe. > > This assumes the partitions are of type Linux-raid-autodetect; because, > if you have built a RAID1 with "normal" partitions (with some filesystem on > them), then I don't know how it can recover. I can boot either with grub or with lilo. (Lilo boot is from a floppy disk). lilo doesn't do RAID assemby, as far as I know. It just starts up with a bunch of blocks at a fixed offset from an identified partition, identified by UUID, and there's two of these. Now I guess at boot time, it may always pick the right one, or always pick the wrong one, or a random one. Now it it picks the wrong one, it's likely not to be able to boot at all, since it's highly likely that the kernel there is different from the one on the right one. Or if the list of disk addresses is also on the RAID, it will likely successbully find an obsolete kernel. Obsolete kernel will still know how to do RAID assembly, though. Which, as you say, will likely work flawlessly ad identify the partitions on the obsolete drive as being the defectiiv ones. But working with a kernel that's only a few months old is not likely to cause trouble. If it always boots from the wrong disk and fails, I can try swapping the drives. If that fails, I can pull the obsolete drive and erase it on another machine. Thanks. There's light at the end of the tunnel and now I know it's not the headlamp of an oncoming train. -- hendrik P.S. Of course I will take a full backup before I do any of this stuff. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] defective RAID
On Sat, Mar 25, 2017 at 06:09:34PM -0300, Renaud OLGIATI wrote: ... ... > > 3 Removing The Failed Disk > > To remove /dev/sdb, we will mark /dev/sdb1 and /dev/sdb2 as failed and remove > them from their respective RAID arrays (/dev/md0 and /dev/md1). Possibly too late. My defective RAID partitions are on a drive that is already not physically connected to the machine. That's the problem I'm trying to solve *safely*. > > First we mark /dev/sdb1 as failed: > mdadm --manage /dev/md0 --fail /dev/sdb1 mdadm is already aware that its other disk has failed. It's physically absent. ... ... > > Then power down the system: > shutdown -h now > and replace the old /dev/sdb hard drive with a new one I deeply believe it's the connection -- the interface and the cabling -- that is defective and not the hard drive. I have alredy provided a new drive in this slot only to have problems recur with the new drive. So I figure that it's probably not the drive, so the new drive will *be* the old one. I plan to conect it by rearranging the cablng so the drive is connected with a different cable to a different interface and a different power connector. Once I get it connected again, the worry will be that the file systems on the now-disconected drive will fool the boot process into booting from it instead of the up-to-date drive. Maybe I have to wipe the disk clean before reinstalling it. Which I'll probably have to do on a different machine. Or is it enough tto scramble the UUIDs of the file systems and to erase the RAI signatures? Or use DD to empty the partitions? Will dd to a partition erase the UUID of its file system? And the RAID signature? > (it must have at least the same size as the old one > if it's only a few MB smaller than the old one then rebuilding the > arrays will fail). > > > > 4 Adding The New Hard Disk > > After you have changed the hard disk /dev/sdb, boot the system. Once I's at this stage, with a clean second drive, I know how to proceed from here. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] defective RAID
On Sat, Mar 25, 2017 at 09:00:23PM +, Simon Hobson wrote: > Hendrik Boom wrote: > > > I have two twinned RAIDs which are working just fine although the > > second drive for both RAIDs is missing. After all, that's what it is > > supposed to do -- work when things are broken.. > > > > The RAIDs are mdadm-style Linux software RAIDs. One contains a /boot > > partition; the other an LVM partition that contains all the other > > partitions in the system, including the root partition, /usr, /home, > > and the like. > > > > Both drives should contain the mdadm signature information, and the > > same consistent file systems. > > > > Each RAID is spread, in duplicate, across the same two hard drives. > > > > > > EXCEPT, of course, that one of the drives is now missing. It was > > physically disconnected by accident while the machine was off, and > > owing to circumstances, has remained disconnected for a significant > > amunt of time. > > > > This means that the missing drive has everything needed to boot the > > system, with valid mdadm signatures, and valid file systems, except, > > of course, that its file system is obsolete. > > > > If I were to manage to reconnect the absent drive, how would the > > boot-time RAID assembly work? (/boot is on the RAID). Would it be > > able to figure out which of the two drives is up-to-date, and > > therefore which one to consider defective and not use? > > OK, been there, got the tee shirt :-) > > If you boot the system with the second drive connected, (I think) > you'll find yourself with two sets of raid volumes. The risk is > that, depending on how the system is setup, it's "a bit arbitrary" > which one gets mounted. Ideally you want to boot the system and then > connect the second drive. They are SATA drives, so in theory they can be hot-plugged -- provided no one cheated on the connectors. They did once make cheap SATA connectors that didn't have the right varies contact lengths for hotplugging. I'd have to hope that mine were not made defective. > At this point, my memory gets a bit vague - lots of googling while > "slightly stressed" (production system down). > > IIRC you can't just add the partitions back into the arrays - it'll > complain that the update counters are different. There's a counter > which gets updated when the array is written to, and so when an > array member is absent - the counters get out of sync and this can > be used to detect the issue and not assemble an array from > inconsistent members. IIRC you can under normal circumstances -- when the RAID is properly perating with two drives, and thend a drive fails while in operation. Then it is marked defective so that is won't be used next time. This has happened in the past, and when adding the partition bac to the RAID is syncsup properly by copying everything for the good drive. But my failed drive got disconnected when the machine was off, so it didn't get marked, so your concerns are real here. > So I think you need to use the "delete metadata" option to mdadm to "clear" > the partitions. Then you add it in, and it'll be rebuilt. > You may have to explicitly remove a device before you can re-add it. I'd have to delete the metadata before I boot with both drives, then. > > Your /boot may be OK. It's typically not written to so it can just be > assembled - the others will need to be rebuilt. Typically, no. But my system has received security upgrades, so the /boot I'm using is different from the /boot on the other drive. /boot was also in RAID. Yes, using the older form of metadata at the end of the partition so that the usual bootloaders don't get confused. > > Just checking man mdadm, and adding a bit of vague memory recall ... > mdadm --detail /dev/sdxn will tell you ... well details ... about an array, > specifically what devices it has and hasn't > mdadm --examine /dev/sdxn will tell you details, including this update > counter, it's labelled "Events" > mdadm /dev/mdnnn --add /dev/sdxn will add a drive. It will automatically go > into rebuild mode which will be shown in /proc/mdstat I suppose I'll have to do this on another machine. Unless it cn autoatically guess where to boot from and which parts of the RAID are defective, I can't boot with both drives. A nuisance, but my other machine has no RAID partitions, so it won't run the risk of confusion. And I can add it in live because I'll use an SATA/USB interface to mount it. Still, I'd like to be able to trust the automation to get it all right. -- hendrik > > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] defective RAID
I have two twinned RAIDs which are working just fine although the second drive for both RAIDs is missing. After all, that's what it is supposed to do -- work when things are broken.. The RAIDs are mdadm-style Linux software RAIDs. One contains a /boot partition; the other an LVM partition that contains all the other partitions in the system, including the root partition, /usr, /home, and the like. Both drives should contain the mdadm signature information, and the same consistent file systems. Each RAID is spread, in duplicate, across the same two hard drives. EXCEPT, of course, that one of the drives is now missing. It was physically disconnected by accident while the machine was off, and owing to circumstances, has remained disconnected for a significant amunt of time. This means that the missing drive has everything needed to boot the system, with valid mdadm signatures, and valid file systems, except, of course, that its file system is obsolete. If I were to manage to reconnect the absent drive, how would the boot-time RAID assembly work? (/boot is on the RAID). Would it be able to figure out which of the two drives is up-to-date, and therefore which one to consider defective and not use? Do I need to wipe the missing drive completely before I connect it? (I have another machine to do this on, using a USB-to-SATA interface). -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] surf segmentation fault
On Sat, Mar 18, 2017 at 01:23:49PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: > On Sat, 18 Mar 2017 07:47:37 -0400 > > You can rule out plugins completely by running it with: > > surf -p Still fails: hendrik@notlookedfor:~$ surf -p http://www.dhl.de (surf:26064): Gdk-CRITICAL **: gdk_window_set_events: assertion 'GDK_IS_WINDOW (window)' failed (surf:26064): Gdk-CRITICAL **: gdk_window_get_screen: assertion 'GDK_IS_WINDOW (window)' failed (surf:26064): Gdk-CRITICAL **: gdk_screen_get_resolution: assertion 'GDK_IS_SCREEN (screen)' failed Segmentation fault hendrik@notlookedfor:~$ uname -a Linux notlookedfor 3.16.0-4-686-pae #1 SMP Debian 3.16.39-1+deb8u2 (2017-03-07) i686 GNU/Linux hendrik@notlookedfor:~$ -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] surf segmentation fault
On Sat, Mar 18, 2017 at 11:50:18AM +, KatolaZ wrote: > On Sat, Mar 18, 2017 at 07:47:37AM -0400, Hendrik Boom wrote: > > [cut] > > > > > I have not installed plugins for surf. But could it be finding > > plugins installed for other browsers? > > > > From the surf manpage: > > For using plugins in surf, first determine your running > architecture. Then get the appropriate plugin for that architecture > and copy it to /usr/lib/browser-plugins or > /usr/lib64/browser-plugins. Surf should load them automatically. > If you want to use a 32bit plugin on a 64bit system, > nspluginwrapper(1) will help you. > > > I obviously meant nspluginwrapper in my previous email, sorry :\ No nspluginwrapper package installed. In fact, aptitude does not seem to think nspliginwrapper exists as an installable package, even after I do an aptitude update. There are several packages whose names contain the string "ndiswrapper", but none of them are installed. Anyway, isn't ndiswrapper for a device driver? But I looked for it anyway. No plugins: endrik@notlookedfor:~$ aptitude hendrik@notlookedfor:~$ ls /usr/lib/browser-plugins ls: cannot access /usr/lib/browser-plugins: No such file or directory hendrik@notlookedfor:~$ ls /usr/lib64/browser-plugins ls: cannot access /usr/lib64/browser-plugins: No such file or directory hendrik@notlookedfor:~$ So I think we can pay the plugin theory to rest. hendrik@notlookedfor:~$ uname -a Linux notlookedfor 3.16.0-4-686-pae #1 SMP Debian 3.16.39-1+deb8u2 (2017-03-07) i686 GNU/Linux hendrik@notlookedfor:~$ Is anyone having this problem on an 32-bit intel system? Mine is an intel atom. -- hendrik > > HND > > KatolaZ > > -- > [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - GLUGCT -- Freaknet Medialab ] > [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] > [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] > [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] > [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] surf segmentation fault
On Sat, Mar 18, 2017 at 07:45:49AM -0400, Hendrik Boom wrote: > On Sat, Mar 18, 2017 at 11:36:11AM +0100, Joachim Fahrner wrote: > > Am 18.03.2017 um 10:32 schrieb KatolaZ: > > > > > > it loads fine over here. > > > > > > $ surf -v > > > surf-0.7, ©2009-2015 surf engineers, see LICENSE for details > > > > > > HND > > > > > > KatolaZ > > > > > > > > > > ok, I tried it on some other pc (amd64), there it works without > > segmentation fault. Maybe it's an issue with i386? > > It failed on my machine, and it's an i386 devuan xfce system. I have not installed plugins for surf. But could it be finding plugins installed for other browsers? -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] surf segmentation fault
On Sat, Mar 18, 2017 at 11:36:11AM +0100, Joachim Fahrner wrote: > Am 18.03.2017 um 10:32 schrieb KatolaZ: > > > > it loads fine over here. > > > > $ surf -v > > surf-0.7, ©2009-2015 surf engineers, see LICENSE for details > > > > HND > > > > KatolaZ > > > > > > ok, I tried it on some other pc (amd64), there it works without > segmentation fault. Maybe it's an issue with i386? It failed on my machine, and it's an i386 devuan xfce system. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] surf segmentation fault
On Sat, Mar 18, 2017 at 07:54:17AM +0100, Joachim Fahrner wrote: > Please can someone try to load http://www.dhl.de with surf? > I get a segmentation fault when opening this page. > That happens woth both, the version from stable and the version from > backports. hendrik@notlookedfor:~$ surf http://www.dhl.de (surf:9566): Gdk-CRITICAL **: gdk_window_set_events: assertion 'GDK_IS_WINDOW (window)' failed (surf:9566): Gdk-CRITICAL **: gdk_window_get_screen: assertion 'GDK_IS_WINDOW (window)' failed (surf:9566): Gdk-CRITICAL **: gdk_screen_get_resolution: assertion 'GDK_IS_SCREEN (screen)' failed Segmentation fault hendrik@notlookedfor:~$ surf -version surf-0.7, ©2009-2015 surf engineers, see LICENSE for details hendrik@notlookedfor:~$ This is the surf from backports, which I upgraded fromm stable last week. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Where to report?
On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 08:18:10PM -0400, Boruch Baum wrote: > Hi Hendrick, > > 1] As has happened in the past, I'm not sure I understand what you > wrote. > > 2] Your comment about the issue being about a ''devuan package' did > send me into a panic, so I double-checked, and it seems that the > package is the unmodified debian 'dnscrypt-proxy_1.9.4-1_amd64.deb' > downloaded from a debian repository, as forwarded by the devuan > server. Just in case I have this wrong somehow, because it is > important, what led you to think it was a package modified by devuan, > and how did you check? Because of the lines > -- System Information: > Distributor ID: Devuan > Description: Devuan GNU/Linux 1.0 (jessie) in the Debian bug report. Of course this didn't prove it was a Devuan package, but it may be one of the things that made a Debainista dismiss it. They'd be interested if a Debian package failed to work on Debian system, but not if it failed on a Devuan system, as they might suspect. -- hendrik . ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Where to report?
On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 04:17:23PM -0400, Boruch Baum wrote: > Hello all, > > I recently submitted what I considered a 'grave' bugreport to > debian[1], which had its severity downgraded to 'wishlist' and its > title changed, all because of systemd, which I suspect is irrelevant > to my report. Where in devuan web-space should I cross-post the report > and its fix? > > [1] https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=857322 what strikes me about the bug report discussion is: ___ > -- System Information: > Distributor ID: Devuan > Description: Devuan GNU/Linux 1.0 (jessie) > Release: 1.0 > Codename: jessie > Architecture: x86_64 Also, why are you reporting a bug against Debian for a Devuan package? ___ This is probably a red flag to the debian cln. They aren't to happy about getting ubuntu bugs either, unless they have been shown to be debian bugs as well. Does it indeed fail on Debian without sysv-init, whch is, technically, still a real thing? -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] We need to speak up
On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 04:57:15PM +, KatolaZ wrote: > > debian-user is a mailing list of debian users. I am not a debian user > any more, and I was not on that list even when I was a Debian user > (and it was for about 15 years). So why on Earth should I now go there > and shout loud at their faces that I think they got it all wrong? > Again, to what avail? Shouting at Debian-user is not likely to be useful. What is important is making sure the upstream developers, from which Debian and nonDebian alike get their software, be aware that they will lose many if they irrevocably systemd-ize their software. Make it plain that, at the very least, their users should be able to turn systemd dependency off. I'm not sure what would be the proper forum for this. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] We need to speak up
On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 10:55:57AM -0500, goli...@dyne.org wrote: > On 2017-03-14 20:37, Steve Litt wrote: > > > >Can somebody please make a list, that we can put our names on, of > >people who left Debian because of systemd? And put the name Steve Litt > >on it please. > > > > There are plenty of sites where YOU could start a MEEETOOO petition to prove > your point. But what is the point? Our freedoms are being eroded on all > fronts - we are drowning in a tsunami of reversal of choice dictated by > those in power be they Debian or corporations or government. Rather than > piss in the wind, my response is to do as much as I can to resist in a > meaningful way by supporting alternatives. I don't see that putting my > (insignificant) name on a list of whiners as a productive action. It would > just get laughed at and stomped on like ants by Paul Bunyan. > > > > >. . . but remember that the Freedesktop/Redhat/SystemdCabal > >consortium has the goal of eliminating systemd as a choice . . . > > > > Er . . . not quite what you intended to say, I think. > > > > >. . . and they still have the power to take our init systems away from us > >. . . > > > > How exactly will they do that? An executive order? By mutating all the essential software to depend on systemd. e coud resist, but desystemd-ing software takes effort, both to do it and to maintain the results. If there are too many systemd-izers, we will not be able to keep up. -- hendrik > > golinux > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] getting surf from backports
On Mon, Mar 13, 2017 at 09:44:16AM -0500, goli...@dyne.org wrote: > On 2017-03-13 09:06, Dave Turner wrote: > >On 13/03/17 13:35, Hendrik Boom wrote: > > > >>On Mon, Mar 13, 2017 at 08:25:25AM +, KatolaZ wrote: > >> > >>On Sun, Mar 12, 2017 at 07:10:00PM -0400, Hendrik Boom wrote: > >> > >>I have found two browser-related devuan packages that have surf in > >>their names. > >> > >>surf > >>netsurf > >> > >>Is either of them relted to the surf you are documenting? > >> > >>Hi Hendrik, > >> > >>you should use the package "surf". The default version in jessie is > >>0.6, but I would warmly suggest you to get the 0.7, e.g. from > >>jessie-backports. > > > >Just noticed > > surf --version > >doesn't work. > > > >But aptitude indeed does tell me I'm using 0.6. > > > >Looking at backports. Now have surf 0.7. > > > >With the backports lines in /etc/apt/sources.list, will everything > >automatically > >get upgraded to the backports version if I do > > aptitude update > > aptitude upgrade > >? I don't see anything in /etc/apt to stop this. I'd like to be able > >to have some > >control over which packages I get from backports. > > > >Or am I better off from a security perspective to always get backports > >updates for > >everything? > > > >-- hendrik > > > >>HND > >> > >>KatolaZ > >> > >>-- > >>[ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - GLUGCT -- Freaknet Medialab ] > >>[ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] > >>[ @) http://kalos.mine.nu [1] --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] > >>[ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia [2] -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] > >>[ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] > > > > Hendrik, > > When you use backports all packages in backports are de-activated. > > You have to explicitly install the package you want. > > > >sudo apt-get -t jessie-backports install "package" > > > > So don't be afraid to add > > deb http://ftp.debian.org/debian [4] jessie-backports main > > into your sources.list > > > > and have a look at > > https://backports.debian.org/Instructions/ [5] > > to set your mind at rest. > > > > DaveT > > > > Perhaps not the best advice . . . Has this issue been fixed yet? If not > you'll have to do the pinning manually. > > https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=479 > > golinux I just pinned it manually. So it looks as if the issue has not been fixed yet. Or, at least, not for a system that was installed from alpha-2 and continually upgraded since. It is a configuration file, and they sometimes don't upgrade without manual intervention. -- hendrik > > > > > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] getting surf from backports
On Mon, Mar 13, 2017 at 08:25:25AM +, KatolaZ wrote: > On Sun, Mar 12, 2017 at 07:10:00PM -0400, Hendrik Boom wrote: > > I have found two browser-related devuan packages that have surf in > > their names. > > > > surf > > netsurf > > > > Is either of them relted to the surf you are documenting? > > > > Hi Hendrik, > > you should use the package "surf". The default version in jessie is > 0.6, but I would warmly suggest you to get the 0.7, e.g. from > jessie-backports. Just noticed surf --version doesn't work. But aptitude indeed does tell me I'm using 0.6. Looking at backports. Now have surf 0.7. With the backports lines in /etc/apt/sources.list, will everything automatically get upgraded to the backports version if I do aptitude update aptitude upgrade ? I don't see anything in /etc/apt to stop this. I'd like to be able to have some control over which packages I get from backports. Or am I better off from a security perspective to always get backports updates for everything? -- hendrik > > HND > > KatolaZ > > -- > [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - GLUGCT -- Freaknet Medialab ] > [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] > [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] > [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] > [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] New documentation on the Surf browser
I have found two browser-related devuan packages that have surf in their names. surf netsurf Is either of them relted to the surf you are documenting? -- hendrik On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 01:30:02AM -0500, Steve Litt wrote: > Hi all, > > I've just finished an extensive and complete document on installing, > modifying and using the Surf browser, and judging from yesterday's > biggest thread, not a moment too soon. > > You can see the doc here: http://troubleshooters.com/linux/surf.htm > > With this document, you can make an incredibly stable and lightweight > browser for general purpose browsing, and save the hogs (Chromium, > Firefox, Palemoon, and qupzilla) for those few things that won't work > with Surf. > > This browser works great for anyone who: > > 1) Isn't afraid to run the make command after editing a >self-explanatory file > > 2) Doesn't prioritize pretty to the exclusion of functionality > > 3) Is willing to change the way [s]he works just a little > > Hey, don't get me wrong: I still use Chromium for Google maps (Google > put Halloween code in Google Maps to favor Chromium), financial > transactions, and youtube videos with addresses starting with youtu.be, > but by using Surf for the vast majority of my work, I prevent Chromium > from dragging my computer down in the quicksand. > > SteveT > > Steve Litt > February 2017 featured book: Thriving in Tough Times > http://www.troubleshooters.com/thrive > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] New documentation on the Surf browser
On Sat, Mar 11, 2017 at 02:32:35PM -0500, Steve Litt wrote: > On Sat, 11 Mar 2017 10:22:43 +0100 > Florian Zieboll wrote: > > > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > > Hash: SHA256 > > > > On Fri, 10 Mar 2017 14:05:44 -0800 > > Rick Moen wrote: > > > > > Quoting Haines Brown (hai...@histomat.net): > > > > > > > Your instruction are in HTML format, and so naturally in Firefox I > > > > clicked to Save as PDF. In fact, most of my work on line uses that > > > > facility. But in your instruction I could not find any reference > > > > to it. Any hope for me? > > > > > > Set up cups-pdf. > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cups-pdf > > > > > > Why not save as plain html? Steves files display nicely, entirely w/o > > stylesheets. > > Wow, it does render pretty well without linuxlibrary.css: I'm surprised. > > But Haines is right: With a failed link to linuxlibrary.css, some of > the page becomes ambiguous. For instance, see the top of the section > called "Installing Tabbed". The first line says "NOTE:", and then > paragraphs follow. With linuxlibrary.css enabled, "NOTE:" becomes a > title in a colored box, and the first and only first paragraph is > inside that box. Without the CSS, you don't know where the note stops > and the body text begins. > > With the CSS, every line or sequence of lines with source code shows in > a light blue box, for more instant recognizeability. Another example: > In the section called "Integrating Tabbed and Surf With Other > Programs", the second paragraph is the word "Danger!". Without CSS, > it's just followed by a bunch of paragraphs: What the heck does > "Danger!" mean? With the CSS, the word "Danger!" is the centered title > of a garishly colored, impossible to miss box, and the following > paragraph is the text of what's dangerous. The CSS is necessary for > clarity of purpose. > > I don't know why Haines needs a local copy at all (Internet not > available sometimes?), but if he does, HTML sans linuxlibrary.css > doesn't just lose pretty, it also loses some meaning and clarity. That > meaning would be better preserved by conversion of the web version to > PDF, and printing to a CUPS printer would probably do just what's > needed for a local copy. Can't you just have a local copy of linuxlibrary.css as well? -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] FF pulseaudio hard dependency is here
On Thu, Mar 09, 2017 at 06:44:59PM -0500, in discussion on firefox, alsa, pulseaudio and Devuan, Steve Litt wrote: > > Devuan is Linux, Linux is free software, and the Android OS, whatever > it's called, is definitely not free software. Your response would be > more ontopic on an Android list. I understand the political reasons for rejecting pulseaudio. I understand the risk that it contribute to the systemdification of the Linux world. But let me hope that there are also technical arguments against it as a piece of software that exists now, as opposed to what it ws a few years ago and what it may execresce into in a few years. Presumably these have been summed up somewhere on the web. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] FF pulseaudio hard dependency is here
On Wed, Mar 08, 2017 at 10:47:00PM +0100, Alessandro Selli wrote: > Il 08/03/2017 18:33, goli...@dyne.org ha scritto: > > This is a follow up to this old thread: > > https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20161002.124357.7c39d049.en.html > > > > According to this post on FDN - > > http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?p=638632#p638632 - the hard > > pulseaudio requirement has now been implemented: > > > > "From Firefox 52 onwards, pulseaudio is a hard requirement for sound > > on linux. Alsa is unsupported and alsa code will be removed in Firefox > > 54." (from - https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.c ... 47056#c178 ) > > > > So heads up that Devuan might need recompile FF for alsa if Debian > > does not. Of course, the blowback for going down this road could yet > > change Mozilla's mind. Yeah, right . . . > > > > Or maybe another viable alternative will miraculously appear . . . > > > > golinux > > I was about to write a similar message, as I just found out about the > new "feature" the hard way. > In the short term I think I'm going to switch to midori. I haven't gotten midori to work in a satisfying way. There are a few sticking points: How do you import bookmarks from firefox? How, when you get a directory listing from a directory on your own hard drive, do you get it sorted in some kind of sensible order? Exploring my own file system in the browser is a pain without this. Where is the documentation? Is there any? Is there even a mailing list? Or a user forum? Raising questions on the github site just gets me an offputting uninformative reply. -- hendrik > > I read about this change in several places, Arch and Gentoo have builds > that re-enable Alsa. Can we use the fruits of their expertise? -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] default signing Re: [ann] heads 0.0 is out!
On Fri, Mar 03, 2017 at 08:52:41AM -0600, ja...@beau.org wrote: > > And then there's what Jamie said: By all being private, we make the > > truly private stand out less. I haven't yet gotten to the point of > > using privacy I don't need personally, as is obvious by this unsigned > > email. > > > SteveT > > A friend of mine has a bit of a conspiracy theory going - asking why there > is no e-mail program that defaults to at *least* signing messages > cryptographically, if not using encryption as a default. He has a point: > none of the major distros set up their e-mail clients to default to > signing, or anything - why not? > > Sure, it's not the super-privacy-protective that heads or tails provides, > but signing at least provides some confirmation that things haven't been > changed along the way. What default cryptographic identity would it use? -- hendrik > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [ann] heads 0.0 is out!
On Tue, Feb 28, 2017 at 09:12:34PM +0100, parazyd wrote: > heads 0.0 is out! > It finally happened and it's not vaporware! It's out, it's not vaporware, it boots into a VM or bare hardware from USB, but... What Is It? -- hendrik > > heads 0.0 is a preview live CD of what heads is going to be about. > This release is not intended to be used from a security point of > view, but as a showcase and testing point of view. > > I am not even completely sure everything is torified, but hey, > that's what testing is for, no? > > So please, download the ISO from the downloads link in the above > navbar and abuse the hell out of it :) > > Throughout a certain period, bugs will be fixed within the build > system, and patched releases will be released without announcement. > So check regularly for 0.0.x releases on the downloads page... > > But first, read some notes on it all: > > Booting the ISO can be done with some virtualization like qemu or > VirtualBox, or it can be dd-ed to a USB flash drive and booted on > a laptop. It can be burned to optical media as well. > > The MATE desktop environment is not yet included in this release, > only AwesomeWM is installed. You can install other environments > easily by yourself. > > When booted, you will be presented with instructions on how to > login, and start a graphical environment. Keep in mind the root > password is shown only once and you will have to reboot if you > lose access to it. > > https://heads.dyne.org/download/ > > -- > ~ parazyd > GPG: 0333 7671 FDE7 5BB6 A85E C91F B876 CB44 FA1B 0274 > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Licenses: was Browsers
On Sun, Feb 26, 2017 at 06:36:35PM -0500, Steve Litt wrote: > On Sun, 26 Feb 2017 18:09:15 -0500 > Hendrik Boom wrote: > > > On Sun, Feb 26, 2017 at 09:45:26PM +0100, Arnt Karlsen wrote: > > > On Sat, 25 Feb 2017 20:31:08 -0500, Steve wrote in message > > > <20170225203108.2838a...@mydesk.domain.cxm>: > > > > > > > On Thu, 23 Feb 2017 13:34:50 -0500 > > > > Hendrik Boom wrote: > > > > > > > > > And speaking of bookmarks, each browser seems to jealously hang > > > > > on to its bookmarks, unless perhaps another browser manages to > > > > > sneak in like a thief and import them. Is this the way > > > > > browsers cement their grip on users? Isn't there any way of > > > > > setting up bookmarks so that multiple browsers and other tools > > > > > can use them? > > > > > > > > Yes. > > > > > > > > Using a very simple tab-indented outline that I maintain with > > > > VimOutliner adorned Vim, plus a conversion app, I have hundreds of > > > > bookmarks, organized just the way I want them. If I want to > > > > change the organization, I do some cutting and pasting on my > > > > outline and recompile. Every browser I use has a link called > > > > "littlinks", and clicking it brings up my link hierarchy. In the > > > > past I've even tweaked my desktop's Apache so any computer within > > > > the house could pull up my links page at > > > > http://192.168.100.2/littlinks. On any browser, including elinks. > > > > > > > > I did this for the exact reason you state: To keep my bookmarks > > > > from being held hostage by particular software. > > > > > > > > If a lot of you want this, I'll slap a free software license on > > > > it and release it. > > > > > > ..make it GPLv2, v3 is too kind on violators. ;o) > > > > How is v3 kinder on violators? As far as I know, it has a lot of > > restrictions to forbid various kinds of abuse. > > > > And to reach maximum availability for various forms of reuse, please > > if you want to use GPL2 or 3, use GPL2+. > > > > I'd be happy with a freeer license, too. There. a word with three > > consecutive e's! > > I use copyleft licenses when: > > 1) The work is a substantial coding effort > > And, > > 2) I see very little reason for someone to use parts of my code in >proprietary programs. > > In theory I'd use lgpl in cases of #2, but lgpl, if I remember > correctly, forces the person incorporating the code into either > revealing his source code or submitting very reverse-engineerable > object code (I don't remember which). The incorporator can do either of these things. He can also distribute obfuscated object code. The only thing he has to permit is linking with the independently written lgpl library. > > For little projects I just use the Expat license, which practically the > same as one of the BSD licenses and one of the MIT licenses, except > there's only one Expat license so there's no ambiguity. > > For copyleft stuff I usually use GPLv2 because I understand it, but for > my recent UMENU2 I used GPLv3 because it addresses software patents. and no one can distribute a program that contains both of these. The problem here is that GPL2 and GPL3 are not compatible licences. So there's a great divide between code that can be included in a project licenced under GPL2 and code that can be incorporated in a GPL3 project. Saying GLP2+ obviates some of this problem. Of course, an MIT licence is compatible with all the GPL licences. -- hendrik > I > *NEVER* include the words "or later", because I have no idea what kind > of animals might take over the FSF in later times. But peoplee will still be able to use your code under GLP2 no matter wht the FSF specifies later. > > I never use licenses with mentions of indemnification. I'm not an > insurace company. > > > SteveT > > Steve Litt > February 2017 featured book: Thriving in Tough Times > http://www.troubleshooters.com/thrive > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Browsers
On Sun, Feb 26, 2017 at 09:45:26PM +0100, Arnt Karlsen wrote: > On Sat, 25 Feb 2017 20:31:08 -0500, Steve wrote in message > <20170225203108.2838a...@mydesk.domain.cxm>: > > > On Thu, 23 Feb 2017 13:34:50 -0500 > > Hendrik Boom wrote: > > > > > And speaking of bookmarks, each browser seems to jealously hang on > > > to its bookmarks, unless perhaps another browser manages to sneak in > > > like a thief and import them. Is this the way browsers cement their > > > grip on users? Isn't there any way of setting up bookmarks > > > so that multiple browsers and other tools can use them? > > > > Yes. > > > > Using a very simple tab-indented outline that I maintain with > > VimOutliner adorned Vim, plus a conversion app, I have hundreds of > > bookmarks, organized just the way I want them. If I want to change the > > organization, I do some cutting and pasting on my outline and > > recompile. Every browser I use has a link called "littlinks", and > > clicking it brings up my link hierarchy. In the past I've even tweaked > > my desktop's Apache so any computer within the house could pull up my > > links page at http://192.168.100.2/littlinks. On any browser, > > including elinks. > > > > I did this for the exact reason you state: To keep my bookmarks from > > being held hostage by particular software. > > > > If a lot of you want this, I'll slap a free software license on it and > > release it. > > ..make it GPLv2, v3 is too kind on violators. ;o) How is v3 kinder on violators? As far as I know, it has a lot of restrictions to forbid various kinds of abuse. And to reach maximum availability for various forms of reuse, please if you want to use GPL2 or 3, use GPL2+. I'd be happy with a freeer license, too. There. a word with three consecutive e's! -- hendrik > > > SteveT > > > > Steve Litt > > February 2017 featured book: Thriving in Tough Times > > http://www.troubleshooters.com/thrive > > -- > ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen > ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... > Scenarios always come in sets of three: > best case, worst case, and just in case. > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
