subject:"\[DNG\] F1 and special usernames on the login screen"


Le 22/07/2016 07:24, Rick Moen a écrit :

Quoting Didier Kryn (k...@in2p3.fr):


>With a French keyboard, I can write in en-UK or en-US, and it is
>also much more convenient when writing in fr-FR.

Vraiment?  C'est intéressant.  ('Truly?  This is interesting.')
I must confess ignorance.  FWIW, usually in my experience, the main
disadvantage of US keyboards is lack of a Euro-symbol key, but there are
easy workarounds.

Jeg kan også skrive inn mitt tredje språk.  (I can also write my third
language.)



Same problem as you: accents aren't available on En keyboards (or 
by tricks I ignore). I use to pick them from various documents with the 
mouse - or use a Fr keyboard.


Keyboards' layouts have been originally dictated by typewtiters' 
mechanics: to prevent the collisions of the hammers, letters which can 
appear close together in words are distant on the keyboard.


In En/US keyboards, digits, / and # are lower case, which is 
objectively more convenient to write programs.


Didier

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Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen

Quoting Didier Kryn (k...@in2p3.fr):

> With a French keyboard, I can write in en-UK or en-US, and it is
> also much more convenient when writing in fr-FR.

Vraiment?  C'est intéressant.  ('Truly?  This is interesting.')  
I must confess ignorance.  FWIW, usually in my experience, the main
disadvantage of US keyboards is lack of a Euro-symbol key, but there are
easy workarounds.

Jeg kan også skrive inn mitt tredje språk.  (I can also write my third
language.)

> I just prefer a US keyboard for writing programs because the
> layout has been hardcoded in my fingers by almost 40 years of
> programming and I find it definitely more convenient for that task.

Would it help if I apologise pour l'impérialisme américain?  ;->

(Je crains que nous ne parlons pas de Devuan.  Nous devrions parler des
questions techniques, mais il est agréable à utiliser la belle langue.)

-- 
Cheers,  « On donne des conseils, mais on ne 
Rick Moendonne point la sagesse d'en profiter. »
r...@linuxmafia.com -- La Rochefoucauld
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Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen

2016-07-21 Thread Adam Borowski

On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 10:01:34PM -0700, Rick Moen wrote:
> Quoting Didier Kryn (k...@in2p3.fr):
> 
> > BTW my laptop has an English keyboard because it is impossible in
> > Europe to buy one with a US keyboard.
> 
> You're not missing a _thing_!  ;->  (I say this as a native speaker of
> English, who also speaks American through translation.)

https://i.imgur.com/HIP7b6T.jpg

-- 
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Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen


Le 22/07/2016 07:01, Rick Moen a écrit :

Quoting Didier Kryn (k...@in2p3.fr):


BTW my laptop has an English keyboard because it is impossible in
Europe to buy one with a US keyboard.

You're not missing a _thing_!  ;->  (I say this as a native speaker of
English, who also speaks American through translation.)

   With a French keyboard, I can write in en-UK or en-US, and it is 
also much more convenient when writing in fr-FR.


I just prefer a US keyboard for writing programs because the layout 
has been hardcoded in my fingers by almost 40 years of programming and I 
find it definitely more convenient for that task.


In Europe you can buy your HP with only an European or Saoudian 
(dunno why) keyboard.


Didier

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Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen

Quoting Didier Kryn (k...@in2p3.fr):

> BTW my laptop has an English keyboard because it is impossible in
> Europe to buy one with a US keyboard.

You're not missing a _thing_!  ;->  (I say this as a native speaker of
English, who also speaks American through translation.)

-- 
Cheers,  "On American pronunciation:  You say erbs and we 
Rick Moensay herbs.  Because, you know, there's an H in it."
r...@linuxmafia.com -- Eddie Izzard
McQ!  (4x80)
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Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen


Le 21/07/2016 14:50, Arnt Gulbrandsen a écrit :

Didier Kryn writes:
I don't reply to your questions since Florian did :-) but I, 
myself, have two questions:


- Still don't know what  key you are talking of; never 
seen that on a keyboard.


- What do you mean by "reisuo" ?


You learn something new every day. Today it's sysrq and linux:
https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/sysrq.txt


Tried it yesterday evening on my HP-Latitude laptop running 
Debian-Wheezy. Tried both with  and . 
None did the trick. With reisuo I only succeeded 
to locked tty1 :-(


BTW my laptop has an English keyboard because it is impossible in 
Europe to buy one with a US keyboard.


Didier

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Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen

Quoting Steve Litt (sl...@troubleshooters.com):

> Rick Moen  wrote:
>
> > That's what it's like to be among the lucky 10,000!
> > https://xkcd.com/1053/
> 
> For the past 25 years, I shake my head in amazement at the profound
> stupidity of myself at an age five years earlier.

You might have been ignorant (nobody's born knowledgeable), but I
personally doubt the stupidity.

Taxonomy:

o ignorance:  fixable, no shame in it
o stupidity:  inherent, no shame in it
o acting stupid:  fixable, but only by overcoming the urge to double 
  down and proclaim 'On _me_, holes shot in one's foot look good.'
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Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen

2016-07-21 Thread Steve Litt

On Thu, 21 Jul 2016 10:18:14 -0700
Rick Moen  wrote:

> Quoting Arnt Gulbrandsen (a...@gulbrandsen.priv.no):
> 
> > You learn something new every day. Today it's sysrq and linux:
> > https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/sysrq.txt  
> 
> That's what it's like to be among the lucky 10,000!
> https://xkcd.com/1053/

For the past 25 years, I shake my head in amazement at the profound
stupidity of myself at an age five years earlier.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
July 2016 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques
 of the Successful Technologist
http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
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Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen

Quoting Arnt Gulbrandsen (a...@gulbrandsen.priv.no):

> You learn something new every day. Today it's sysrq and linux:
> https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/sysrq.txt

That's what it's like to be among the lucky 10,000!
https://xkcd.com/1053/

-- 
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Rick Moen
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Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen

2016-07-21 Thread Hendrik Boom

On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 09:09:28AM +0200, Didier Kryn wrote:
> I've now replaced Slim by Lightdm. Dunno what key "sysrq" is.

sysrq is sometimes labelled PrtSc.  In the old DOS days, it would print 
the screen. 

No doubt this might require documentation, too.

-- hendrik
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Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen


Le 21/07/2016 14:58, Arnt Gulbrandsen a écrit :

I wrote:

You learn something new every day. Today it's sysrq and linux:
https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/sysrq.txt


The poor developers among you may take special note of alt-sysrq-f, 
which kills a memory-eating process quite reliably. The good 
developers among you never have bugs that cause malloc bombs, of 
course, and can ignore this.


I know one who would use a C++ vector when he barely needs a static 
array, because, you know, it is so more modern! But he's developping on 
a Mc-Intosh :-) Dunno if the sys-rq trick works on Mac.


Didier

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Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen

2016-07-21 Thread Arnt Gulbrandsen


Didier Kryn writes:
Thanks to you all! I eventually discovered that my  
key had also a tiny label saying sys-rq !

Will try it tonight...


You can always get a daskeyboard or happy hacker and escape the tyranny of 
built-in documentation. This is mine: 
http://www.getdigital.de/images/actionshots/t4/dasKeyboardUltimateEU.jpg


Arnt
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Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen

2016-07-21 Thread Adam Borowski

On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 01:50:41PM +0100, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote:
> Didier Kryn writes:
> >- Still don't know what  key you are talking of; never seen
> >that on a keyboard.

It might be either a key on its own or printed on the side of PrtScr.

> >- What do you mean by "reisuo" ?
> 
> You learn something new every day. Today it's sysrq and linux:
> https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/sysrq.txt

You almost always want to end this with 'b' (reboot) rather than 'o' (off).
The 'r' is pointless here (as you're not going to use the system anymore),
'e' and 'i' are unlikely to help.

For stuck X/Weyland/SVGAlib/etc you want 'r'+'k' rather than nuking the
system.

-- 
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Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen


Le 21/07/2016 14:50, Arnt Gulbrandsen a écrit :

Didier Kryn writes:
I don't reply to your questions since Florian did :-) but I, 
myself, have two questions:


- Still don't know what  key you are talking of; never 
seen that on a keyboard.


- What do you mean by "reisuo" ?


You learn something new every day. Today it's sysrq and linux:


This is one of the goodies of dng :-)


https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/sysrq.txt


Thanks to you all! I eventually discovered that my  key had 
also a tiny label saying sys-rq !

Will try it tonight...

Didier

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Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen

2016-07-21 Thread Arnt Gulbrandsen


I wrote:

You learn something new every day. Today it's sysrq and linux:
https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/sysrq.txt


The poor developers among you may take special note of alt-sysrq-f, which 
kills a memory-eating process quite reliably. The good developers among you 
never have bugs that cause malloc bombs, of course, and can ignore this.


Arnt
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Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen

2016-07-21 Thread Arnt Gulbrandsen


Didier Kryn writes:
I don't reply to your questions since Florian did :-) but 
I, myself, have two questions:


- Still don't know what  key you are talking of; 
never seen that on a keyboard.


- What do you mean by "reisuo" ?


You learn something new every day. Today it's sysrq and linux:
https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/sysrq.txt

Arnt
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Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen


Le 21/07/2016 13:51, Robert Storey a écrit :
Not that I want to do so, but can ctrl-alt-f1+ctrl-alt-del be disabled 
by the sysadmin?


For "halt," there are always magic keys, as long as that's not 
disabled by the sysadmin...


Alt-SysRq reisuo


I don't reply to your questions since Florian did :-) but I, 
myself, have two questions:


- Still don't know what  key you are talking of; never seen 
that on a keyboard.


- What do you mean by "reisuo" ?

Thanks.
Didier

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Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen

2016-07-21 Thread Florian Zieboll

On Thu, 21 Jul 2016 19:51:04 +0800
Robert Storey  wrote:

> Not that I want to do so, but can ctrl-alt-f1+ctrl-alt-del be
> disabled by the sysadmin?

Yes, you can disable both, independently:

The command executed by ctrl+alt+del is defined in /etc/inittab.

The switching of virtual consoles with ctrl+alt+(f1-fN) can be disabled
by adding the following lines to your /etc/X11/xorg.conf or to an
arbitrary file in /usr/share/X11/xorg.conf.d/:

Section "ServerFlags"
Option "DontVTSwitch" "true"
EndSection


libre Grüße,

Florian
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Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen

2016-07-21 Thread Robert Storey

Didier Kryn said:

> In any case, any person who has the possibility to push the power
> button or cut the power cord should be given the opportunity to click
> the halt button instead. ctrl-alt-f1+ctrl-alt-del can  be used to
> reboot, but there's nothing to halt.

I'd actually forgotten about ctrl-alt-f1+ctrl-alt-del
...must be getting old.

Not that I want to do so, but can ctrl-alt-f1+ctrl-alt-del be disabled by
the sysadmin?

For "halt," there are always magic keys, as long as that's not disabled by
the sysadmin...

Alt-SysRq reisuo

I definitely like the idea that this is enabled by default in Devuan. I
actually use it quite a lot.

cheers,
Robert
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Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen

Quoting Didier Kryn (k...@in2p3.fr):

> I don't know anybody able to stop a server because of own
> unawareness. They all would do it only on request by the admin.
> Hypothetic malevolent people just haven't the key of the room.

That works!  ;->

Believe it or not, though, it's not unknown to have background processes
running on a host -- a host not in a locked server room -- that you'd
rather not be killed by some passing user, and still permit others to
also login at the local console.

> Slim's solution against unawareness is to require root password.
> Well, are you going to give the root password to mindless people?

Understand, please, that I've never happened to use slim.  When I
install an x window manager, I almost always use xdm.

Certainly, from the description, that design seems a very appropriately
cautious one.

-- 
Cheers,  Luftputebåten min er full av ål.
Rick Moen
r...@linuxmafia.com
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Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen


Le 21/07/2016 06:48, Rick Moen a écrit :

   The purpose
of making such software shutdown not trivially easy wasn't to prevent
shutdown.  It is to create undeniable awareness.  Mindfulness.

The standard solution to give users_deliberately_  that software access
is to add them to a group with that right.


I don't know anybody able to stop a server because of own 
unawareness. They all would do it only on request by the admin. 
Hypothetic malevolent people just haven't the key of the room.


Slim's solution against unawareness is to require root password. 
Well, are you going to give the root password to mindless people? Better 
stick a poster with a warning. But the poster must not be too 
frightening, otherwise some people might refrain to stop the server when 
it is necessary or even urgent.


Can you describe a use case?

Didier

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Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen


Le 21/07/2016 04:15, Adam Borowski a écrit :

On Wed, Jul 20, 2016 at 06:27:25PM -0700, Rick Moen wrote:

Quoting Didier Kryn (k...@in2p3.fr):

In any case, any person who has the possibility to push the
power button or cut the power cord should be given the opportunity
to click the halt button instead. ctrl-alt-f1+ctrl-alt-del can  be
used to reboot, but there's nothing to halt.

Halt is accomplished by first doing ctrl-alt-f1, ctrl-alt-del, then
turning the system unit off before significantly into startup (assuming
physical access to the system unit in addition to a physical console).

Or, as you say, through a hardware button on the system unit, or yanking
the mains (AC) cord.

Which means the defaults for display managers are bogus.

In the default configuration, anyone with physical access can ctrl-alt-del
or alt-sysrq.  This can be disabled, so can be a brief push of the power
button (ACPI shutdown), but I have yet to see a BIOS that allows disabling
long push of the power button, or, for that matter, yanking the power cord
(or the battery of a mobile device).
Long-push always worked for me. And short-push worked for me on 
Slim - I've now replaced Slim by Lightdm. Dunno what key "sysrq" is.

Thus, unless someone took extraordinary steps to provide physical security,
anyone able to login locally can turn the machine off, period.  An orderly
shutdown is better than an unclean one, thus any display manager that
forbids local users to shutdown is buggy.

I think anyone could agree on this. And this means "no 
authentication required."


Didier

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Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen

2016-07-20 Thread Rick Moen

Quoting Adam Borowski (kilob...@angband.pl):

> An orderly shutdown is better than an unclean one, thus any display
> manager that forbids local users to shutdown is buggy.

Let me tell you a metaphor, to sneak up on why it's not that simple.

I have a sign at the entrance to my garden.  For context, for forty
years from 1966 to 2006, my family home was a rental property, after my
father's employer, Pan American World Airways, moved us to Hong Kong.
Finally, I got back, and moved back in.  During those forty years of
renter neglect, numerous people had gotten used to walking, or even
walking with their dogs, from the street through the wilder part of my
large front yard.

Most of the sidewalk border is blocked by 20 year old oleander bushes,
about three meters tall.  There was one gap in the oleanders about a
meter wide at one end, another about 30cm wide at the other.  Even after
I reclaimed the area behind the oleanders from wildness and planted a 
vegetable garden in raised beds, people kept barging through, often with
their dogs.  If I engaged their attention and politely asked them to
leave, they'd almost always say the same thing:  'I thought this was a
park.'

They didn't really think it was a park.  For 40 years, they assumed it
was a partially derelict property that they could trespass on without
objection -- but when you corner people and they're totally in the
wrong, they blurt out the first justification that comes to mind.

I said, this is a social problem:  Time for a technical solution 
(ref: http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/lexicon.html#edwards).  

I put a two-meter-tall steel-wire-frame arch in the large gap, like an
upside-down U, turning it into a formal entrance, and planted climbing
roses to ascend up each side.  And just above eye-level in the arch,
facing the street, a sign:

 INVITED GUESTS WELCOME.
  1105 Altschul Gardens is private prperty.

It was cordial, and it was clear.  Suddenly the gap wasn't just a gap,
but an entrance, ostentatiously looked after, curated.  The arch and
sign jointly conveyed:  No more 'oh, sorry' excuses.  You assume this
is derelict at your peril.

We had no more problems except one teenager who said 'Oh, I'm not
invited?' with a stupid smirk.  I just looked bored and escorted him
off.

The linneus bottomus:  The purpose of the sign wasn't to prevent
trespassing.  It was to create undeniable awareness.  Mindfulness.

The purpose of a display manager not making it a trivially easy
operation for any local user to initiate software shutdown isn't to
prevent shutdown.  It's to discourage _mindless_ shutdown, by console
users perhaps unaccustomed to Unix and oblivious to the cron task or
long-running program they're going to kill by thinking like a pee-cee
weenie who assumes he/she is the centre of the friggin' world and nobody
else matters.

It means no more 'oh, sorry' excuses.  You assume this system's run
state is unimportant at your peril.  The linneus bottomus:  The purpose
of making such software shutdown not trivially easy wasn't to prevent
shutdown.  It is to create undeniable awareness.  Mindfulness.

The standard solution to give users _deliberately_ that software access
is to add them to a group with that right.

If the user wants to ignore social cuing and shutdown the machine anyway
by hardware measures, that's indeed always possible at the local
machine and social cuing won't stop it.  If neighbours want to ignore
social cuing and stomp through my vegetable garden, that's indeed always
possible from the sidewalk and social cuing won't stop it.

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Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen

2016-07-20 Thread Adam Borowski

On Wed, Jul 20, 2016 at 06:27:25PM -0700, Rick Moen wrote:
> Quoting Didier Kryn (k...@in2p3.fr):
> > In any case, any person who has the possibility to push the
> > power button or cut the power cord should be given the opportunity
> > to click the halt button instead. ctrl-alt-f1+ctrl-alt-del can  be
> > used to reboot, but there's nothing to halt.
> 
> Halt is accomplished by first doing ctrl-alt-f1, ctrl-alt-del, then 
> turning the system unit off before significantly into startup (assuming
> physical access to the system unit in addition to a physical console).
> 
> Or, as you say, through a hardware button on the system unit, or yanking
> the mains (AC) cord.

Which means the defaults for display managers are bogus.

In the default configuration, anyone with physical access can ctrl-alt-del
or alt-sysrq.  This can be disabled, so can be a brief push of the power
button (ACPI shutdown), but I have yet to see a BIOS that allows disabling
long push of the power button, or, for that matter, yanking the power cord
(or the battery of a mobile device).

Thus, unless someone took extraordinary steps to provide physical security,
anyone able to login locally can turn the machine off, period.  An orderly
shutdown is better than an unclean one, thus any display manager that
forbids local users to shutdown is buggy.

-- 
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Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen

2016-07-20 Thread Rick Moen

Quoting Didier Kryn (k...@in2p3.fr):

> In any case, any person who has the possibility to push the
> power button or cut the power cord should be given the opportunity
> to click the halt button instead. ctrl-alt-f1+ctrl-alt-del can  be
> used to reboot, but there's nothing to halt.

Halt is accomplished by first doing ctrl-alt-f1, ctrl-alt-del, then 
turning the system unit off before significantly into startup (assuming
physical access to the system unit in addition to a physical console).

Or, as you say, through a hardware button on the system unit, or yanking
the mains (AC) cord.

(Technically, you spoke of someone 'who has access to the shutdown
button of the display manager', which in edge cases _could_ be a remote
user -- but generally is not.)
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Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen

2016-07-20 Thread Didier Kryn


Le 20/07/2016 15:42, Simon Hobson a écrit :

  it is perfectly possible to run a remote KVM which*CAN*  do that. Just extend 
the KVM cables, and if they won't go far enough of you can't run the cables, 
convert to something intermediate (eg KVM over IP) very much like connecting a 
serial terminal via a modem.
I overlooked that. Actually one can run remote KVMs over IP. In 
principle, the connection is secured, and the real purpose of these 
remote KVMs is to allow the admin to take control of the computer when 
all other means fail, which means exactly to reboot and/or debug.


Didier

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Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen

2016-07-20 Thread Simon Hobson

Didier Kryn  wrote:

>I don't understand all your explanations, sorry :-) . I understood the 
> concept of "seat" as the combo you describe (graphics-keyboard-mouse).
> 
>   If the concept of "seat" includes serial terminals, I see no reason to not 
> include remote logins: until the middle of the 80's, serial terminals could 
> be far remote, by the means of modems, and, conceptually, this isn't 
> different of a telnet connection. If multi-seat involves all that, then the 
> concept is not relevant in this discussion. Which is relevant is wether the 
> user  can push the shutdown button of the DM or "send" ctrl-alt-del, and 
> neither serial terminals, nor remote sessions can do that - except, possibly 
> remote graphic sessions through XDMCP.

Yes, it is a bit of a side track, but the discussion is moving along with (as 
it appear to me) an implicit assumption that "multi seat" == "multiple graphics 
cards, keyboards, mice (KVM - Keyboard, Video, Mouse)". Taking a step back, 
this combination is just a subset of multi-seat.

Whether graphics or serial terminal (which did in fact often do graphics BTW) 
the principle is the same : A user "does something", that something gets 
signalled to the computer via it's cable, the computer "does something" with 
that input, and then sends some updated display information up the cable to the 
display device. The only real difference is that with a serial terminal the 
interface between the "user interface" and "the system" is via serial, with a 
KVM the interface is over the system's internal bus.*

To an extent, telnet and SSH are also a subset of this, though the mechanism is 
somewhat different.

A correction though. While a serial terminal typically cannot reset the system 
(other than via commands), it is perfectly possible to run a remote KVM which 
*CAN* do that. Just extend the KVM cables, and if they won't go far enough of 
you can't run the cables, convert to something intermediate (eg KVM over IP) 
very much like connecting a serial terminal via a modem.

What I struggle to understand is why "multiseat" as it's being discussed here 
(as an aside to the "can I shutdown from the login screen" discussion) should 
be considered so "hard". It's really (or shouldn't be) any different to (say) 
serial terminals - instantiate a "login process" for each instance of the 
hardware, "getty" on a serial line, choice of display manager (or whatever) for 
each KVM set.
Or have I missed something obvious ?

* As an aside, I recall reading many years ago that PCIe would allow the "PC" 
to be split up - with high speed serial links connecting the processing unit 
and the graphics card. It eventually arrived with Intel/Apple's Thunderbolt.
Get a Thunderbolt equipped system, plug multiple Thunderbolt displays into it, 
plug a keyboard and mouse into each screen. Hmm, looks very very much like a 
modern day serial terminal !
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Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen

2016-07-20 Thread Arnt Gulbrandsen


Rick Moen writes:

Funny that you should mention that:  You might actually have seen that
tale as related by _me_ on Risks Digest.


The substance is similar but the wording unfamiliar. Could it possibly be 
that such a thing has happened twice? Surely not.


(BTW, I had to explain a two-routers-in-one-19" thing in my hand luggage 
very thoroughly once. The odd appearance and solid steel construction made 
them jittery. But my double-edged razor blades went by without comment.)



I believe the conventional solution is to locate such hardware
behind locked doors and make sure few people have access to the
power cables.


Yes, mostly.  It would be rare to permit physical console access (other
than by highly trusted people) on a shared ISP machine or anything like
that.  In edge cases -- which really isn't likely -- one _might_ imagine
a server that does significant work for remote users and simultaneously
regular users were permitted use of a local console.


Edge case is the right term, and the proverb goes "optimize for the common 
case".


It's nice to have options and an orthogonal design, but please let those 
who want to have console GUI on a multiuser server spend the time to test 
that case and fix whatever needs fixing.


Arnt
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Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen

2016-07-20 Thread Rick Moen

Quoting Arnt Gulbrandsen (a...@gulbrandsen.priv.no):

> Reminds me of the story about the airline captain who took the mike
> to apologise to the passengers for a delay: "I was held up in the
> security control, they were worried that I might seize control of
> the airplane."

Funny that you should mention that:  You might actually have seen that
tale as related by _me_ on Risks Digest.

http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/25.01.html#subj8

> Imagine a host with hundreds of simultaneous users, such as (say) a
> >shared ISP machine.  You would absolutely not want just anyone to be
> >able to shutdown or reboot the machine at will.  Tberefore, the
> >conventional solution to this problem is to require membership in a
> >bespoke group for shutdown/reboot rights.

> I believe the conventional solution is to locate such hardware
> behind locked doors and make sure few people have access to the
> power cables.

Yes, mostly.  It would be rare to permit physical console access (other
than by highly trusted people) on a shared ISP machine or anything like
that.  In edge cases -- which really isn't likely -- one _might_ imagine
a server that does significant work for remote users and simultaneously
regular users were permitted use of a local console.

As I mentioned about the San Francisco cybercafe's NFS/NIS master,
_that_ host was physically in a locked room upstairs but the keyboard
and monitor were deliberately accessible to the public downstairs -- as
an example.

Obviously rare, though.

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Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen

2016-07-20 Thread Arnt Gulbrandsen


Rick Moen writes:

Remember, Unix is a multiuser operating system, and also one supporting
both local and remote users, who would be annoyed by someone deciding to
cut them off.


Reminds me of the story about the airline captain who took the mike to 
apologise to the passengers for a delay: "I was held up in the security 
control, they were worried that I might seize control of the airplane."



Imagine a host with hundreds of simultaneous users, such as (say) a
shared ISP machine.  You would absolutely not want just anyone to be
able to shutdown or reboot the machine at will.  Tberefore, the
conventional solution to this problem is to require membership in a
bespoke group for shutdown/reboot rights.


I believe the conventional solution is to locate such hardware behind 
locked doors and make sure few people have access to the power cables.


Arnt

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Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen

2016-07-20 Thread Arnt Gulbrandsen


Steve Litt writes:

I hadn't thought much about several people using the same computer for
different GUI tasks in the last 12 years.


It happens. There are some family-shared tablets with >1 account. Rumour 
has it it's rare, although I've never spoken to anyone with numbers and 
without an NDA.


Arnt
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Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen

2016-07-20 Thread Didier Kryn

Le 19/07/2016 16:03, Simon Hobson a écrit :

Didier Kryn wrote:

I guess this is exactly what "multi-seat" means: severall keyboards and severall grapical cards
connected to the same host. It certainly does not include serial terminals. Serial terminal fall in the
category "multi-user", like ssh connections, not "multi-seat".

I disagree there. In the context of "graphical consoles" being discussed I see where you
are coming from, but serial terminals are just a sub class of multi-seat - while the "multiple
graphics card-keyboard-mouse" setup is another sub-set. The key difference is that there is a
long historyof multi-seat via serial (and more recently, network) terminals and (forexample) the
serial etc systems inherently support multi-seat.
The way the problem is solved for serial terminals is simple - abstractthe hardware into a stable
device API, and run multiple instances of the"login" program (one per seat). "In
theory" the same should be possible with the graphics-keybourd-mouse combo - EXCEPT that
(AIUI) the software components involved were mostly written a) without that standard abstraction
and b) without regard to the possibility of multiple instantiations.
Just think how easy it musty have seemed at one point to just "intertwine" the software and
hardware such that a single instance of "something" acted as the sole gatekeeper between the serial
line and the machine - for a single seat. There'd then be discussions on how to work around that to enable
multi-seat. As it happens, the serial line one was such a "no brainer" given how many different
things used the serial lines - the solution we have must have seemed so obvious from the very beginning.

I don't understand all your explanations, sorry :-) . I understood
the concept of "seat" as the combo you describe (graphics-keyboard-mouse).

If the concept of "seat" includes serial terminals, I see no reason
to not include remote logins: until the middle of the 80's, serial
terminals could be far remote, by the means of modems, and,
conceptually, this isn't different of a telnet connection. If multi-seat
involves all that, then the concept is not relevant in this discussion.
Which is relevant is wether the user can push the shutdown button of
the DM or "send" ctrl-alt-del, and neither serial terminals, nor remote
sessions can do that - except, possibly remote graphic sessions through
XDMCP.

To come back to Slim, why should it behave differently of wtfdm and
ask a password to halt/reboot? It makes no fundamental difference wether
this is obtained by clicking a button or by entering a special text in
the login window.

Didier

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Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen

2016-07-20 Thread Didier Kryn


Le 19/07/2016 18:33, Rick Moen a écrit :

You speak as if the consequences of host shutdown (or reboot) were
trivial, but that is not the case:  A local user who has shutdown the
host has terminated all processes (not just his/her own), and made the
entire machine unavailable to everyone.

Seen that way, I would hope you'd understand that by default shutdown
(and to a lesser extent reboot) should be a privileged operation.


Yes. The person who has the key of the room where the computer 
sits. Simple policy tested along ages :-)


Didier

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Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen

Quoting Steve Litt (sl...@troubleshooters.com):

> I have two reasons someone (not me, but somebody) would prefer to start
> up in a GUI:
> 
> 1) Some members of my family consider it an immense challenge to have
>to remember to input their username and password at the console,
>recognize that they're logged in (as opposed to have fatfingered
>their password and need to try again), and then type "startx".
> 
> 2) Some people can't be trusted to type the command like this:
> 
>startx;exit
> 
>so that the a badguy who terminates the GUI doesn't have access to
>their command prompt (although they could just access xterm within X
>anyway).

Which as the legit user is _very_ easy to prevent:  E.g., if disinclined
to type the aforementioned, create shell script /usr/local/bin/go that
does that, and use it instead after login (if you want to start X11).

> Personally, I always boot to CLI and startx to GUI.

'startx' (or equivalently 'xinit ' or countless
other variations) really has no significant disadvantage or advantage
over a display manager, per se, except tying up a VT while X11 is running
- and I suppose you might be able to fix even that by backgrounding it.

It's mostly just a matter of local preference.  And IMO a well-customised
display manager (certainly including xdm) looks neat.

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Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen

On Wed, 20 Jul 2016 00:40:13 +0200
aitor_czr  wrote:

> On 07/19/2016 07:38 PM, Robert Storey  wrote:
> > About SLIM as a display manager - I'm fine with it, even if it's
> > not really maintained. The important thing is that it's fast,
> > stable, not riddled with security holes (including systemd). I'm
> > open though to changing to something better, if there is something
> > better.
> >
> > cheers,
> > Robert  
> 
> I find it good enough :)
> 
>Aitor.

I've got no problem with slim. Especially if we can revisit for Ascii.

SteveT

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July 2016 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques
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Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen

On Tue, 19 Jul 2016 09:23:47 -1000
Joel Roth  wrote:

> emnin...@riseup.net wrote:
> > And as i said before, lxdm is nearly equally leightweight as slim
> > and as far as i see not really systemd infected - yet (?).  
> 
> Why do you like using a display manager rather than login
> and startx? 

I have two reasons someone (not me, but somebody) would prefer to start
up in a GUI:

1) Some members of my family consider it an immense challenge to have
   to remember to input their username and password at the console,
   recognize that they're logged in (as opposed to have fatfingered
   their password and need to try again), and then type "startx".

2) Some people can't be trusted to type the command like this:

   startx;exit

   so that the a badguy who terminates the GUI doesn't have access to
   their command prompt (although they could just access xterm within X
   anyway).

Personally, I always boot to CLI and startx to GUI.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
July 2016 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques
 of the Successful Technologist
http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
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Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen

2016-07-19 Thread Daniel Reurich

On 20/07/16 05:24, Steve Litt wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Jul 2016 02:03:24 +1200
> Daniel Reurich  wrote:
> 
> 
>> LTSP provides more then just financial benefits.  I maintain 3 sites
>> using it for computer hubs that provide basic internet access and
>> computer skills training.  The benefits of that centralisation both of
>> the applications platform as well and user storage is easiest this
>> way. It' performs great and is easy to maintain.  Adding another
>> terminal or 2 is dead easy (plug it in and set it to PXE boot).
> 
> Just so we're all on the same page, the word "terminal" in your
> preceding sentence really means a (perhaps very low horsepower) computer
> sans hard disk and CD, right?
>  
Yup, in this case HP thin clients.  But if I manage to keep the platform
on Linux (there is move to switch it all to windows) I'm likely to
upgrade to an arm device for the terminals.



-- 
Daniel Reurich
Centurion Computer Technology (2005) Ltd.
021 797 722



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Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen

2016-07-19 Thread aitor_czr




On 07/19/2016 07:38 PM, Robert Storey  wrote:

About SLIM as a display manager - I'm fine with it, even if it's not really
maintained. The important thing is that it's fast, stable, not riddled with
security holes (including systemd). I'm open though to changing to
something better, if there is something better.

cheers,
Robert


I find it good enough :)

  Aitor.



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Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen

2016-07-19 Thread emninger

Am Tue, 19 Jul 2016 22:06:11 +
schrieb Jaromil :

> but then one really needs to be pro-active about it here. So: if
> anyone wants a DM that is not packaged, even before asking for it
> should do an effort at its packaging.

lxdm is there already (in ascii but not jessie). I tried to do a
configuration in line with the devuan style guidelines (for the moment,
i think it's ok, from this point of view)
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Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen

2016-07-19 Thread emninger

Am Tue, 19 Jul 2016 19:57:35 +
schrieb Joel Roth :

> emnin...@riseup.net wrote:
> > And as i said before, lxdm is nearly equally leightweight as slim
> > and as far as i see not really systemd infected - yet (?).  
> 
> Why do you like using a display manager rather than login
> and startx? 

Esthetics? Coherence with the DE? ;) 

Essentially, you're right ...
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Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen

2016-07-19 Thread Joel Roth

Jaromil wrote:
> On Tue, 19 Jul 2016, Joel Roth wrote:
> 
> > Why do you like using a display manager rather than login
> > and startx? 
> 
> good question I wasn't daring to pose so far.
> 
> login and startx (and ~/.xinitrc configuration) work like a charm on
> Devuan... and anywhere else FWIW. plus give you the big advantage of
> not having to start X to execute quick text-only tasks.
> 
> FTR whenever I *need* a DM then I use XDM and ~/.xsession conf.

I'm a bit confused about .xinitrc and .xsession. Looks like
they're almost interchangeable. From 'man startx'

Note that in the Debian system, what many people
traditionally put in the .xinitrc file should go in
.xsession instead; this permits the same X environment to be
presented whether startx, xdm, or xinit is used to start the
X session.

> the talent of golinux is the main reason why I'm keen to facilitate
> the sugar coating of Devuan, because her and hellekin's ideas may
> really bring some innovation in making pleasant the visual
> presentation of an OS.

Although repeating myself, I advocate distributions default
to login and startx, just so everyone gets the idea that the
terminal is available. Maybe if a sufficient multitude
appreciate and expect a terminal, we'll start to get a shell
in phones, tablets, etc. in future.

Unrealistic,  probably, that seeing the terminal equates to
using it, but *never* seeing a terminal OTOH helps people
be unfamiliary and fearful.

Joel

-- 
Joel Roth

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Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen

Quoting Steve Litt (sl...@troubleshooters.com):

> OK, I think I see. I was assuming that there's no graphical terminal
> cheaper than a cheap commodity computer with mobo. To the extent that
> there are graphical terminals cheaper than commodity computers, it
> makes sense.

Yeah, well, you put your finger directly on the main economic question.

I _tend_ to side with the people who say de-minimus computers are now so
damned cheap that non-autonomous consoles don't make economic sense.
Having seen just how cheaply a Raspberry Pi 2 can be thrown into a
little plastic box with a little power supply, if someone offered me a
chance to invest in a firm manufacturing non-Linux-capable terminals
competing with them, I'd say 'You first.'

At the same time, if others want to try, I'm not opposed to that -per se-, 
not that they're asking my opinion.  Maybe they just happen to own a big
pile of terminals.  ;->

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Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen

2016-07-19 Thread Jaromil

On Tue, 19 Jul 2016, Joel Roth wrote:

> Why do you like using a display manager rather than login
> and startx? 

good question I wasn't daring to pose so far.

login and startx (and ~/.xinitrc configuration) work like a charm on
Devuan... and anywhere else FWIW. plus give you the big advantage of
not having to start X to execute quick text-only tasks.

FTR whenever I *need* a DM then I use XDM and ~/.xsession conf.

the talent of golinux is the main reason why I'm keen to facilitate
the sugar coating of Devuan, because her and hellekin's ideas may
really bring some innovation in making pleasant the visual
presentation of an OS.

but then one really needs to be pro-active about it here. So: if
anyone wants a DM that is not packaged, even before asking for it
should do an effort at its packaging.

ciao
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Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen

2016-07-19 Thread Jaromil

On Tue, 19 Jul 2016, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote:

> Multiseat is unimportant, barely significant. The price of computers
> has dropped enough that the ones with UIs are now personal
> devices. The architecture of backends has changed such that UIDs
> aren't used for customer IDs.

> A few exceptions remain, increasingly rare. I'm sure there are people who
> have used that blue icon near the top right corner of the android lock
> screen.

I absolutely agree with this assesment. Actually, I'm quite sure we
are winning an easy game. What is surprising is how many people,
supposedly professionals, are actually willing to deny this. I'm not a
conspirationist by nature, yet I come to think there is a double
agenda here. I can't think so many people are stupid, I'd rather think
they are lying.

The biggest industrial interest I can perceive behind systemd is
actually the full spectrum implementation of DRM from the hardware to
the software stack. This is why messages like the one sent by the
other Arnt on this list shouldn't be overlooked
https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20160612.045420.d84a3334.en.html
as well as the US patent 20150040216-A1 "Systems and Methods for
Restricting Application Binary Interfaces" filed by Paul Moore, Dan
Walsh and Lennart Poettering on behalf of Red Hat.

ciao

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Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen

2016-07-19 Thread Joel Roth

emnin...@riseup.net wrote:
> And as i said before, lxdm is nearly equally leightweight as slim and
> as far as i see not really systemd infected - yet (?).

Why do you like using a display manager rather than login
and startx? 


-- 
Joel Roth
  

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Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen

2016-07-19 Thread emninger

Am Tue, 19 Jul 2016 17:38:16 +
schrieb Robert Storey :

> About SLIM as a display manager - I'm fine with it, even if it's not
> really maintained. The important thing is that it's fast, stable, not
> riddled with security holes (including systemd). I'm open though to
> changing to something better, if there is something better.

When i installed jessie - on another machine with big overheating
problems (amd cpu & graphics) slim never ever worked, only console
login and startx. irrwahn helped me out (he even made a bugreport
somewhere) and in the end lxdm was the login manager which worked.
After that experience i sticked with it also installing later on ascii
on a less problematic machine.

And as i said before, lxdm is nearly equally leightweight as slim and
as far as i see not really systemd infected - yet (?).
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Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen

On Tue, 19 Jul 2016 10:59:26 -0700
Rick Moen  wrote:

> Quoting Steve Litt (sl...@troubleshooters.com):
> 
> > On Tue, 19 Jul 2016 10:08:01 -0700
> > Rick Moen  wrote:
> >   
> > > It fits logically into the 'effective use of autonomous host
> > > w/console stations having the independent local processing
> > > ability that mere consoles lack' category, of course.  Was that
> > > actually a question?  
> > 
> > Yes. What would be the advantage of LTSP over kmscon or systemd?
> > What would be the disadvantage? How would one choose between LTSP
> > and kmscon (I'm assuming nobody on this list would choose
> > systemd)?  
> 
> Well, LTSP (and variations thereon) is a very attractive option if
> your consoles have motherboards, adequate CPUs, adequate RAM, and the
> ability to run Linux.  Technically, they don't need local mass
> storage, because they can netboot.  
> 
> LTSP (and variations thereon) is _outside_ the realm of possibility if
> your consoles are just consoles and don't each include a Linux-capable
> computer.

OK, I think I see. I was assuming that there's no graphical terminal
cheaper than a cheap commodity computer with mobo. To the extent that
there are graphical terminals cheaper than commodity computers, it
makes sense.

I hadn't thought much about several people using the same computer for
different GUI tasks in the last 12 years.
 
SteveT

Steve Litt 
July 2016 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques
 of the Successful Technologist
http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
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Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen

Quoting Steve Litt (sl...@troubleshooters.com):

> On Tue, 19 Jul 2016 10:08:01 -0700
> Rick Moen  wrote:
> 
> > It fits logically into the 'effective use of autonomous host w/console
> > stations having the independent local processing ability that mere
> > consoles lack' category, of course.  Was that actually a question?
> 
> Yes. What would be the advantage of LTSP over kmscon or systemd? What
> would be the disadvantage? How would one choose between LTSP and kmscon
> (I'm assuming nobody on this list would choose systemd)?

Well, LTSP (and variations thereon) is a very attractive option if your
consoles have motherboards, adequate CPUs, adequate RAM, and the ability
to run Linux.  Technically, they don't need local mass storage, because
they can netboot.  

LTSP (and variations thereon) is _outside_ the realm of possibility if
your consoles are just consoles and don't each include a Linux-capable
computer.

People looking fond of multiseat capability wish to bring about a
renaissance of non-autonomous console computing.  I'm not among them,
but consoles did make economic sense decades ago when I was in high
school and when minicomputers were in their heyday, and maybe they will
again.  Or not.

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Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen

On Tue, 19 Jul 2016 10:08:01 -0700
Rick Moen  wrote:

> Quoting Steve Litt (sl...@troubleshooters.com):
> 
> > Where does Linux Terminal Server Project (LTSP,
> > http://www.ltsp.org/) fit into this discussion?  
> 
> It fits logically into the 'effective use of autonomous host w/console
> stations having the independent local processing ability that mere
> consoles lack' category, of course.  Was that actually a question?

Yes. What would be the advantage of LTSP over kmscon or systemd? What
would be the disadvantage? How would one choose between LTSP and kmscon
(I'm assuming nobody on this list would choose systemd)?

Thanks,
 
SteveT

Steve Litt 
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Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen

On Wed, 20 Jul 2016 02:03:24 +1200
Daniel Reurich  wrote:


> LTSP provides more then just financial benefits.  I maintain 3 sites
> using it for computer hubs that provide basic internet access and
> computer skills training.  The benefits of that centralisation both of
> the applications platform as well and user storage is easiest this
> way. It' performs great and is easy to maintain.  Adding another
> terminal or 2 is dead easy (plug it in and set it to PXE boot).

Just so we're all on the same page, the word "terminal" in your
preceding sentence really means a (perhaps very low horsepower) computer
sans hard disk and CD, right?
 
SteveT

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Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen

Quoting Steve Litt (sl...@troubleshooters.com):

> Where does Linux Terminal Server Project (LTSP, http://www.ltsp.org/)
> fit into this discussion?

It fits logically into the 'effective use of autonomous host w/console
stations having the independent local processing ability that mere
consoles lack' category, of course.  Was that actually a question?

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Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen

On Tue, 19 Jul 2016 01:29:23 -0700
Rick Moen  wrote:

> Quoting Arnt Gulbrandsen (a...@gulbrandsen.priv.no):
> > Simon Walter writes:
> >   
> >> Oh the insolence. Amazing. "You're holding it wrong" comes to
> >> mind. There is this guy named Lennart who might agree with you.  
> > 
> > Quite likely he might, he's not stupid after all.  And I agree too:
> > Multiseat is unimportant, barely significant.  The price of
> > computers has dropped enough that the ones with UIs are now
> > personal devices.  
> 
> Might be obvious, but just mentioning:  'Multiseat' (GNOME/system
> implementation of which proximately caused the systemd-logind
> omnishambles of several years ago) needs to be distinguished from
> multiuser.
> 
> Unix has been inherently, by design, _multiuser_ since its beginning,
> and I for one would be quite sad if my Linux servers were suddenly
> 'personal devices':  E.g., a Web / SMTPd / ftpd / sshd / rsyncd /
> NTPd server like the one in my garage suddenly failing to serve
> remote users would be a misfortune.
> 
> I have to confess that I personally didn't understand how multiseat
> differs from multiuser on Linux until quite recently.  Pro bono
> publico: It concerns simultaneous _local_ users.  The Linux kernel[1]
> can, unaided, make _only one_ (local) virtual terminal active at a
> time.  Sure, you can (e.g.) have one X11 server attached to /dev/tty7
> and another to /dev/tty8, but it turns out that any time one's
> active, the other can't be -- even if two physical sets of console
> hardware are attached. So, multiseat is, in short, a system software
> elaboration to fix that.
> 
> This missing kernel functionality isn't important to either you, Simon
> Walter, or me, but it's a genuine limitation nonetheless, and there's
> nothing wrong _per se_ with offering ways around that limitation.
> Note that systemd-consoled is not the only candidate:  kmscon
> preceded it, albeit development is currently stalled.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kmscon
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiseat_configuration#GNU.2FLinux also
> mentions several other current implementations.
> 
> So, multiseat is _not_ a systemd invention, nor a systemd monopoly.
> 
> Latter page mentions 'Multiseat setups are great for schools,
> libraries, and family computers.'  Arguably true, _maybe_.  Depends
> on the economics of additional consoles versus extra complete
> computers, I guess.  I enjoyed using minicomputers during high
> school:  A modern revival of that computing model using Linux might
> make money sense or might not, depending. Otherwise, I wouldn't say
> today that it'll necessarily be 'unimportant' in years to come.

Where does Linux Terminal Server Project (LTSP, http://www.ltsp.org/)
fit into this discussion? IIRC LTSP existed long before systemd, and
before kmscon too.

Thanks,
 
SteveT

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Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen

Quoting Tomasz Torcz (to...@pipebreaker.pl):

> So it would be sensible to ask for root password IF there are other
> (remote) users logged in.  If there is no one logged in, shutdown/reboot
> should be possible without entering root password.

You speak as if the consequences of host shutdown (or reboot) were
trivial, but that is not the case:  A local user who has shutdown the
host has terminated all processes (not just his/her own), and made the
entire machine unavailable to everyone.  

Seen that way, I would hope you'd understand that by default shutdown
(and to a lesser extent reboot) should be a privileged operation.

Of course if your local usage model makes things otherwise, luckily it's
not difficult for you as sysadmin to give console users those powers and
whatever other powers you wish.

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Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen

On Tue, 19 Jul 2016 12:17:32 +0900
Simon Walter  wrote:

> On 07/19/2016 11:53 AM, Adam Borowski wrote:
> ...
> > All that talk about multiseat being important or even relevant
> > today is IMO bullshit.  
> ...
> 
> Oh the insolence. Amazing. "You're holding it wrong" comes to mind. 
> There is this guy named Lennart who might agree with you.

:-)

Before Adam pronounces "multiseat" "bullshit", and before you associate
him with poetterputz, I think an agreement needs to be reached on the
exact meaning of "multiseat."
 
SteveT

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Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen

2016-07-19 Thread KatolaZ

On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 04:25:59PM +0200, Tomasz Torcz wrote:

[cut]

>  
>   So it would be sensible to ask for root password IF there are other
> (remote) users logged in.  If there is no one logged in, shutdown/reboot
> should be possible without entering root password.
>   Above heuristic could be default, with additional setting available
> to always/never require root password to shutdown.
> 

If I can contribute 2 pence to this prolonged discussion, I would
point out that deciding who and how has the ability to shut-down or
reboot a given machine is something that pertains to the *policy*
decided by the administrator of that machine. Login managers and other
amenities could (or should, according to some of you) provide the
*mechanism* to shut down and reboot a machine, but cannot and should
not enforce any policy at all about shutting down and rebooting.

The reason for that is the same that has produced this prolonged
thread: there cannot be any agreement about policies, since everybody
has his/her own vision of how his/her computer should behave, and all
of them are *correct*. 

There is a very good explanation to why Unix has been successful in
the last 45 years: it has provided *mechanisms*, and a lot of them,
for basically any possible operation you might be willing to do on
your system, even those which the original creators did not have a
clue about. But it has always avoided to enforce any *policy*,
i.e. precise ways in which those mechanish have to be used to make
sense. Why? Simply because there is a potentially infinite number of
policies (and you will realise that if you think that unix flavors
currently run on anything, from microcontrollers to supercomputers)
and no single size will fit them all.

Software should provide mechanisms, and as many and as variegate as
possible, but making sense of mechanisms and composing them into
policies is the role of the system administrator. The large majority
of seasoned unix users and admins would agree that anything that
defies this simple principle is totally against the unix phylosophy,
and that any discussion that prescinds this simple principle will
never converge to an agreement.

My2Pence

KatolaZ

-- 
[ ~.,_  Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - GLUGCT -- Freaknet Medialab  ]  
[ "+.  katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it  ]
[   @)   http://kalos.mine.nu ---  Devuan GNU + Linux User  ]
[ @@)  http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia --  GPG: 0B5F062F  ] 
[ (@@@)  Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ  ]
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Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen

2016-07-19 Thread Florian Zieboll

On Tue, 19 Jul 2016 16:25:59 +0200
Tomasz Torcz  wrote:

> On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 07:43:51PM -0700, Rick Moen wrote:
> > Quoting Brad Campbell (lists2...@fnarfbargle.com):
> > 
> > > This is one I find interesting. I've never used an operating
> > > system where it was required to know root credentials to halt or
> > > reboot the machine from the login screen.
> > 
> > Remember, Unix is a multiuser operating system, and also one
> > supporting both local and remote users, who would be annoyed by
> > someone deciding to cut them off.
>  
>   So it would be sensible to ask for root password IF there are other
> (remote) users logged in.  If there is no one logged in,
> shutdown/reboot should be possible without entering root password.
>   Above heuristic could be default, with additional setting available
> to always/never require root password to shutdown.


/etc/slim.conf offers a lot of flexibility if you are willing to edit
some additional files, or to create a tool that does it for you. Your
suggestions could be implemented easily.

libre Grüße,

Florian


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Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen

2016-07-19 Thread Hendrik Boom

On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 03:03:35PM +0100, Simon Hobson wrote:
> Didier Kryn  wrote:
> 
> >I guess this is exactly what "multi-seat" means: severall keyboards and 
> > severall grapical cards connected to the same host. It certainly does not 
> > include serial terminals. Serial terminal fall in the category 
> > "multi-user", like ssh connections, not "multi-seat".
> 
> 
> I disagree there. In the context of "graphical consoles" being 
> discussed I see where you are coming from, but serial terminals are 
> just a sub class of multi-seat - while the "multiple graphics 
> card-keyboard-mouse" setup is another sub-set. The key difference is 
> that there is a long history of multi-seat via serial (and more 
> recently, network) terminals and (for example) the serial etc systems 
> inherently support multi-seat.

Indeed, this is how I first used Unix -- multiple serial-interface  
typewriter terminals connected to one PDP-11.

Later we got a few text-only CRTs.

-- hendrik
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Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen

2016-07-19 Thread Simon Hobson

Didier Kryn  wrote:

>I guess this is exactly what "multi-seat" means: severall keyboards and 
> severall grapical cards connected to the same host. It certainly does not 
> include serial terminals. Serial terminal fall in the category "multi-user", 
> like ssh connections, not "multi-seat".

I disagree there. In the context of "graphical consoles" being discussed I see 
where you are coming from, but serial terminals are just a sub class of 
multi-seat - while the "multiple graphics card-keyboard-mouse" setup is another 
sub-set. The key difference is that there is a long history of multi-seat via 
serial (and more recently, network) terminals and (for example) the serial etc 
systems inherently support multi-seat.

The way the problem is solved for serial terminals is simple - abstract the 
hardware into a stable device API, and run multiple instances of the "login" 
program (one per seat). "In theory" the same should be possible with the 
graphics-keybourd-mouse combo - EXCEPT that (AIUI) the software components 
involved were mostly written a) without that standard abstraction and b) 
without regard to the possibility of multiple instantiations.
Just think how easy it musty have seemed at one point to just "intertwine" the 
software and hardware such that a single instance of "something" acted as the 
sole gatekeeper between the serial line and the machine - for a single seat. 
There'd then be discussions on how to work around that to enable multi-seat. As 
it happens, the serial line one was such a "no brainer" given how many 
different things used the serial lines - the solution we have must have seemed 
so obvious from the very beginning.

Rob Owens  wrote:

> I can say with authority that multiseat doesn't have any value *for me*.
...
> But I have no idea what the situation is like for people in other parts of 
> the world, or for people in my part of the world with fewer financial 
> resources.

And that, IMO is a key point. Accepting that different users have different 
needs - and what we perceive as "of no value" may be the primary use case for 
others.
Unfortunately, too many people, especially those pushing some key software 
components seem to have lost sight of this and simply declare anything they 
aren't interested in as "of no value" - or worse, as "wrong".

We all, myself included, need to remember that our use case is just that "OUR" 
use case. It's easy to dismiss opposing viewpoints as having no merit if they 
don't fit in with our needs/perceptions.

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Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen

2016-07-19 Thread Daniel Reurich


> 
> I can say with authority that multiseat doesn't have any value *for 
> me*.  I looked into it a long time ago and decided that LTSP was
> more straightforward.  These days, prices of hardware have come down
> enough that other people replace their computers after only a few
> years and I get their hand-me-downs.  This has made even LTSP not
> worth my while. But I have no idea what the situation is like for
> people in other parts of the world, or for people in my part of the
> world with fewer financial resources.
> 
LTSP provides more then just financial benefits.  I maintain 3 sites
using it for computer hubs that provide basic internet access and
computer skills training.  The benefits of that centralisation both of
the applications platform as well and user storage is easiest this way.
 It' performs great and is easy to maintain.  Adding another terminal or
2 is dead easy (plug it in and set it to PXE boot).



-- 
Daniel Reurich
Centurion Computer Technology (2005) Ltd.
021 797 722



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Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen

2016-07-19 Thread Rob Owens

On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 10:53 PM, Adam Borowski  wrote:

> Nowadays to find a regular person who doesn't own multiple computers, you
> need to go to Africa or rural India.
>
> I'd say it's safe to assume that a person authorized to login on the
> console
> (either text or graphical) is supposed to be at least an operator, if not
> the owner, of the machine.  For weird setups like a kiosk you need to
> configure access anyway.  All that talk about multiseat being important
> or even relevant today is IMO bullshit.
>

I can say with authority that multiseat doesn't have any value *for me*.  I
looked into it a long time ago and decided that LTSP was more
straightforward.  These days, prices of hardware have come down enough that
other people replace their computers after only a few years and I get their
hand-me-downs.  This has made even LTSP not worth my while.  But I have no
idea what the situation is like for people in other parts of the world, or
for people in my part of the world with fewer financial resources.
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Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen

2016-07-19 Thread Didier Kryn


Le 19/07/2016 13:34, Adam Borowski a écrit :

But why would anyone make a graphical console without a computer this
millenium?  Even if used just as a thin client, some extra logic to manage
this would be nice.  A computer costs a few cents these days, or, if you
want a capable board and connectors, a few dollars.

And even if you insist on connecting two physical GUI consoles, it'd be far
more reasonable to given them separate logical machines by one of many ways
to do so, than to create an additional layer in a single logical machine.


I guess this is exactly what "multi-seat" means: severall keyboards 
and severall grapical cards connected to the same host. It certainly 
does not include serial terminals. Serial terminal fall in the category 
"multi-user", like ssh connections, not "multi-seat".


I'm afraid XDMCP I mentionned in my previous email falls in yet 
another category.


Didier

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Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen

2016-07-19 Thread Adam Borowski

On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 01:29:23AM -0700, Rick Moen wrote:
> Latter page mentions 'Multiseat setups are great for schools, libraries,
> and family computers.'  Arguably true, _maybe_.  Depends on the economics
> of additional consoles versus extra complete computers, I guess.  I
> enjoyed using minicomputers during high school:  A modern revival of that
> computing model using Linux might make money sense or might not, depending.
> Otherwise, I wouldn't say today that it'll necessarily be 'unimportant' in
> years to come.

But why would anyone make a graphical console without a computer this
millenium?  Even if used just as a thin client, some extra logic to manage
this would be nice.  A computer costs a few cents these days, or, if you
want a capable board and connectors, a few dollars.

And even if you insist on connecting two physical GUI consoles, it'd be far
more reasonable to given them separate logical machines by one of many ways
to do so, than to create an additional layer in a single logical machine.

-- 
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Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen

2016-07-19 Thread Arnt Gulbrandsen

There are lots of unix boxes that serve many users. The mail server that 
sends this does, without requiring each email user to have a unix account. 
The only devuan server I have in production so far does, but the users are 
in a postgres database, not in /etc/password.


There are also lots of unix boxes that have many UIDs. Don't android phones 
assign a uid to each app you install?


The concept that's dying or dead is a login screen that asks "which of my 
many longtime users are you?" and then serve a UI. That used to be common, 
but nowadays corporate IT tends to give people laptops and each person has 
files on that laptop, so the laptop is more a singleuser device than a 
shared-among-whole-company thing. Even if a laptop is accessible to others 
in principle because of Active Directory or similar, the local files hollow 
out its multiseat capability.


Kiosks remain, but many of those don't usually have longtime users, you get 
a freshly set up "guest" account when you start. I've also seen one that 
VNC'd me to my own virtualbox guest instead of using unix/x's multiseat.


And of course sshd remains heavily used among many sysadmins, at least, but 
that too doesn't have a lot to do with login screens or multiseat.


Arnt

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Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen

Quoting Simon Walter (si...@gikaku.com):

> >I have to confess that I personally didn't understand how multiseat
> >differs from multiuser on Linux until quite recently.  Pro bono publico:
> >It concerns simultaneous _local_ users.
> 
> Does that include serial devices? 

Excellent question.  I am going to chicken out and say, sadly, that I
really don't know.  My apologies, as I'd like to know, too.

> My point was simply that if Devaun is to be useful to many people,
> we shouldn't be closed minded about the use cases.

FWIW, I certainly concur.

(Good heavens, it's mid-morning, British Summer Time, isn't it?  Here on
the left coast of the Failed Colonies, I badly need to stop harvesting
schadenfreude from Ohio political follies, and get to sleep.)

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Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen

2016-07-19 Thread Simon Walter




On 07/19/2016 05:29 PM, Rick Moen wrote:

Quoting Arnt Gulbrandsen (a...@gulbrandsen.priv.no):

Simon Walter writes:


Oh the insolence. Amazing. "You're holding it wrong" comes to
mind. There is this guy named Lennart who might agree with you.


Quite likely he might, he's not stupid after all.  And I agree too:
Multiseat is unimportant, barely significant.  The price of computers
has dropped enough that the ones with UIs are now personal devices.


Might be obvious, but just mentioning:  'Multiseat' (GNOME/system
implementation of which proximately caused the systemd-logind
omnishambles of several years ago) needs to be distinguished from
multiuser.

Unix has been inherently, by design, _multiuser_ since its beginning, and
I for one would be quite sad if my Linux servers were suddenly 'personal
devices':  E.g., a Web / SMTPd / ftpd / sshd / rsyncd / NTPd server like
the one in my garage suddenly failing to serve remote users would be a
misfortune.

I have to confess that I personally didn't understand how multiseat
differs from multiuser on Linux until quite recently.  Pro bono publico:
It concerns simultaneous _local_ users.


Does that include serial devices? I remember working at a factory where 
the computer controlled saws, conveyor belts, and other machines in each 
production line would communicate via serial interfaces with a server. 
IIRC, they were using SunOS. Of course a very unique use case that has 
nothing to do with normal "users" and "desktops".


My point was simply that if Devaun is to be useful to many people, we 
shouldn't be closed minded about the use cases. I am not arguing that we 
strive to include multiseat functionality or any specific login manager 
or text editor or whatnot. Simply that we should not exclude anything 
that is easily included just because we don't see a use case for it.


I am preaching to choir - I am pretty sure.

Simon
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Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen