Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
On Tue, Sep 01, 2015 at 10:09:40AM +0200, Jaromil wrote: > > Speaking of which, my patch for "nodm" is online at [1]. > Great :^) I hope Enrico has time to have a look and perhaps include the > patch upstream. Unfortunately, most likely I will not: I only have time to work on nodm when a customer pays for it, and this is not happening at the moment, and there does not seem to be any incoming request for it in the near future. I of course would be very happy if people with time and energy could take over maintenance of nodm, so that it can be maintained regardless of how my work life goes. Enrico -- GPG key: 4096R/E7AD5568 2009-05-08 Enrico Zini signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
Tobias Hunger writes: [...] >> on the same grounds, because systemd covers so much ground >> and does so many things (that *it should not* be doing) that any good >> engineer who wants to design an alternative will see a lot of insane >> features and immediately say "Nope, I'm not doing that, it's not the >> init system's job"; and systemd proponents will always answer "See? >> systemd is the only one that does that stuff, and all the competition >> is inferior". > > Go talk to other developers, find out what bothers them about the > non-systemd and systemd status quo and address those issues one by one. > Then blog about that solution and try to get developers to use it. Act on > their feedback when they provide it. > > I do not see that happening anywhere at this time. So far it is mostly > claiming everything used to be fine before systemd. It was not. Considering just the discussions on this list during the last couple of weeks, this is obviously a strawman. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
On September 2, 2015 2:12:33 AM GMT+02:00, Gregory Nowak wrote: >On Wed, Sep 02, 2015 at 01:59:55AM +0200, poitr pogo wrote: >> i'm against moderation. I'm against allowing enemies to sit at a campfire of refugees that have just been kicked out of their home. >I also realize I'm not the owner of >this list, so I'll quietly resume my seat now. if you like to open up a new unbiased mailinglist to debate pro and cons of systemd, please do. we can host that also here at lists.dyne.org but be warned: systemd will end up being always the subject, not leaving space for anything else, because they are superior and they have already solved all problems better than anyone else. Those who have been involved in the past 3 years of debates and have experience the prevarication in their logic can confirm. ciao -- Jaromil, for the Devuan Panther Party for Self Defence ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
On Tue, 01 Sep 2015 15:50:43 +0200 shraptor wrote: > On 2015-09-01 11:48, Laurent Bercot wrote: > > On 01/09/2015 10:29, Jaromil wrote: > >> if you can confirm the plan of releasing r6-rc within september > > > > I confirm it. > > I am interested in r6-rc is there any place to read more about it > or perhaps I have to wait for the release? I used just plain s6 as the service management part of init, together with LittKit to order the startup, and suckless-init to start from scratch and listen for signals. It worked very well. I'm anticipating that s6-rc will be outstanding. SteveT Steve Litt August 2015 featured book: Troubleshooting: Just the Facts http://www.troubleshooters.com/tjust ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
On Wed, Sep 02, 2015 at 01:59:55AM +0200, poitr pogo wrote: > i'm against moderation. > if you find his posts disturbing use killfile instead. I have to agree here. He's not spamming, he's expressing his unbounded enthusiasm for all things systemd (call it trolling if you want). Frankly, I've found the logic he uses in a lot of his posts quite amusing. I don't like the idea of censorship in general. If we won't allow the other side to express their views, then why should they allow us to express ours? I also realize I'm not the owner of this list, so I'll quietly resume my seat now. Greg -- web site: http://www.gregn.net gpg public key: http://www.gregn.net/pubkey.asc skype: gregn1 (authorization required, add me to your contacts list first) If we haven't been in touch before, e-mail me before adding me to your contacts. -- Free domains: http://www.eu.org/ or mail dns-mana...@eu.org ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
i'm against moderation. if you find his posts disturbing use killfile instead. -- regards piotr ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
It wont be perfect until we have Powerbash. SWS ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
Hello Mr. Zini, On 09/01/2015 07:14 PM, Enrico Zini wrote: > On Tue, Sep 01, 2015 at 10:09:40AM +0200, Jaromil wrote: >> [...] I hope Enrico has time to have a look and perhaps include >> the patch upstream. >> > Unfortunately, most likely I will not: I only have time to work on nodm > when a customer pays for it, and this is not happening at the moment, > and there does not seem to be any incoming request for it in the near > future. > > I of course would be very happy if people with time and energy could > take over maintenance of nodm, so that it can be maintained regardless > of how my work life goes. The neccessities are understood. Thank you for informing us so quickly. I will take responsibility for the modifications in Devuan context, and will propose them to the currently listed Debian maintainers. There's also a few neccessary fixes to the nodm.init script, they will be committed as well. Kind regards, Tilman ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
On 01/09/2015 15:50, shraptor wrote: I am interested in r6-rc is there any place to read more about it or perhaps I have to wait for the release? http://skarnet.org/s6-rc/ but you won't see much there until it's released. You can get a preliminary look, which includes some early documentation, at https://github.com/skarnet/s6-rc Discussion happens on the skaw...@list.skarnet.org mailing-list, so please subscribe to it and post there if you have comments or suggestions! Note that s6-rc relies heavily on s6, so if you're unfamiliar with process supervision, you may want to start there first. Have fun, -- Laurent ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
On Tue, 9/1/15, Jaromil wrote: Subject: Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide To: dng@lists.dyne.org Date: Tuesday, September 1, 2015, 8:37 AM [snip] > We do not need these sorts of debates here, we need to facilitate the > work of those developing alternatives, without such tiring discussions. > > That's why I put under moderation Tobias posts and will do with all > others that are here to foster such reiterated discussions. We are not > here to debate systemd, its good and bads and the reasons behind it. We > are here because we have already left, we have already decided it > doesn't work for us and we are determined to develop and encourage the > development of alternatives. > > Lets concentrate and make this campfire a pleasant place for all those > who are busy and can use good advices and testing. There is a lot of > space for future successful developments here, the demand and good ideas > are surely not lacking. > Agreed. Tobias 'contributions' are a waste of our good time and distract us from our goal. Please moderate his posts so we can get on with the task at hand. To Tobias . . . please . . . just go away . . . golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
On 2015-09-01 11:48, Laurent Bercot wrote: On 01/09/2015 10:29, Jaromil wrote: if you can confirm the plan of releasing r6-rc within september I confirm it. I am interested in r6-rc is there any place to read more about it or perhaps I have to wait for the release? ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
On Tue, 01 Sep 2015, John Crisp wrote: > On 01/09/15 15:16, jfmxl wrote: > > > > It was RH in league with/fronting for the NSA. > > I'm not an ardent conspiracy theorist so that's one step too far for me > personally, though I do understand your thinking. > > RH is more than capable of doing this itself for it's own ends. It is > doing nothing illegal. Immoral perhaps, but not illegal. > > The NSA et al are more than capable of hacking anything themselves > anyway. They don't need help from RH or anyone else. I agree. In any case these speculation do not really serve anyone here. I would really appreciate if we all make an effort and stop talking in these terms, outing frustrations and such. We do not need these sorts of debates here, we need to facilitate the work of those developing alternatives, without such tiring discussions. That's why I put under moderation Tobias posts and will do with all others that are here to foster such reiterated discussions. We are not here to debate systemd, its good and bads and the reasons behind it. We are here because we have already left, we have already decided it doesn't work for us and we are determined to develop and encourage the development of alternatives. Lets concentrate and make this campfire a pleasant place for all those who are busy and can use good advices and testing. There is a lot of space for future successful developments here, the demand and good ideas are surely not lacking. ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
On 01/09/15 15:16, jfmxl wrote: > > It was RH in league with/fronting for the NSA. I'm not an ardent conspiracy theorist so that's one step too far for me personally, though I do understand your thinking. RH is more than capable of doing this itself for it's own ends. It is doing nothing illegal. Immoral perhaps, but not illegal. The NSA et al are more than capable of hacking anything themselves anyway. They don't need help from RH or anyone else. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
On 2015-09-01 19:26, John Crisp wrote: On 30/08/15 09:26, Steve Litt wrote: You know why, Nate. You were on Debian-User in the bad old days. Back in the day, how many times did I get called a conspiracy theorist for answering that question. Three words: 1. Follow 2. the 3. money. So true, so true. I personally don't believe for one moment that systemd was an accident. It was a well planned and well executed program (unlike systemd itself !) to enable RH to control 'Linux'. A silent coup if you like. If RH couldn’t buy Linus to control development then they had to build around the issue. They've done an extremely good job. Unfortunately. RH new devs would leap in and argue the technical merits (as opposed to the political ones) whilst their media/propaganda department got on with selling it as a great idea. They were completely outflanked and out manoeuvred by a large corporation with a big budget and their own (shareholders) interests at heart. My 10c FWIW. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng It was RH in league with/fronting for the NSA. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
On Tue, 1 Sep 2015 10:04:13 +0200 Tobias Hunger wrote: [snip] > Now that is a really depressing outlook. > > I am way more positive than about your chances than that. [snip] > Keep on hacking, you can make a difference:) [snip] > Go talk to other developers, find out what bothers them about the > non-systemd and systemd status quo and address those issues one by > one. He really *is* in love with himself: I thought it was just a summer thing. The systemd troll tells *us* how to think, how to maintain positivity, how to code, and what to "blog". Life's too short. I have til tomorrow at 5pm to put together a Node.js presentation. Edward's busy making a no-systemd, no-dbus network helper. Most everyone is contributing, and this guy's consuming our mental clock cycles with his bullshit. Well, as Steve Jobs used to say, "there's an app for that": # "Systemd troll" Tobias Hunger :0: * From.*redac...@redacted.com * ^(To|Cc).*dng@lists.dyne.org /dev/null Like I said, life's too short. SteveT Steve Litt August 2015 featured book: Troubleshooting: Just the Facts http://www.troubleshooters.com/tjust ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
On 30/08/15 09:26, Steve Litt wrote: > You know why, Nate. You were on Debian-User in the bad old days. Back > in the day, how many times did I get called a conspiracy theorist for > answering that question. > > Three words: > > 1. Follow > 2. the > 3. money. > So true, so true. I personally don't believe for one moment that systemd was an accident. It was a well planned and well executed program (unlike systemd itself !) to enable RH to control 'Linux'. A silent coup if you like. If RH couldn’t buy Linus to control development then they had to build around the issue. They've done an extremely good job. Unfortunately. RH new devs would leap in and argue the technical merits (as opposed to the political ones) whilst their media/propaganda department got on with selling it as a great idea. They were completely outflanked and out manoeuvred by a large corporation with a big budget and their own (shareholders) interests at heart. My 10c FWIW. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
On 01/09/2015 10:04, Tobias Hunger wrote: Now that is a really depressing outlook. What can I say: the state of affairs with the systemd madness *is* depressing. I am way more positive than about your chances than that. X11 used to be impossible to replace because of drivers and we are pretty close to getting Wayland anyway. Eh, if you like systemd, it probably makes sense that you like Wayland; but I don't. Wayland is yet another integrated, all-encompassing, monolithic (despite otherwise claims) attempt at solving a problem, with the exact same design issues as systemd. Granted, the X problem is much more acute than the init problem, and much harder; and it's probably impossible, given our technical knowledge, to find a solution that accommodates both my desire for security and modularity and a modern graphics system's need for performance and support for stuff like 3D. But still, I don't think Wayland is the right answer, and I'm not exactly impatient to see it released. Heck, windows was the future for ages No, Windows was never the future. Windows was the present, because it was all people had. Unfortunately, when it was released, Windows was already 20 years behind the academic state of the art in operating systems; so, a more accurate statement would be that Windows was the past. :P Windows was the future from a "market shares" point of view, and you are reasoning in market shares terms - this is also exactly what systemd is doing. And the reason why Linux eventually took over is that it was designed right in the first place. In the same fashion, we are getting things right first no matter what is happening in the marketplace, and we will eventually take over. I do not see that happening anywhere at this time. So far it is mostly claiming everything used to be fine before systemd. It was not. What you are saying is that the "anti-systemd" camp is lacking communication effort. You're right. I can't talk for other people, but as far as I'm concerned, I've been totally taken by surprise by systemd's success. I've always found it so technically inept that I simply could not see it spreading, so I just ignored it. Boy, was I wrong: so many resources - time, money, energy - have been poured into communicating about systemd that it has become the most talked-about init system ever. If a quarter of the resources spent in promoting systemd had been spent on hiring experienced Unix programmers and designing a better init system, we would all be in paradise right now. And propaganda works: when you smother people with information about a product, they tend to forget that this product is not the only thing that exists. What is important to realize is that the "alternatives to systemd" community is not a company: it is mostly made of people who only have an interest in the technical side of things (i.e. who like to get things right before making big announcements) and it does not have the resources of a company (i.e. getting things right takes time, and communicating also takes more time). So it's obvious why you're not hearing much about alternatives yet. But the loudest voice is not necessarily the wisest; actually, it very rarely is. I do not see why you would need the same socket for all daemons It is possible to open as many sockets as there are daemons, but this is only desirable if you're using the daemontools model, i.e. one supervisor per daemon. And if you're using that model, opening a socket to listen to daemon notifications is entirely unnecessary and a waste of resources, so why would you do that? s6, for instance, has a simpler notification model that does not need a socket. Using the NOTIFY_SOCKET mechanism would require a deep rework of the supervisor code for a net loss in simplicity and maintainability. So, in practice, NOTIFY_SOCKET only benefits monolithic designs. SD_notify is so much simpler to do than double forking, so most developers will pick that on their own. Do something even simpler and they will use that instead. I've already done it. Writing a newline to stdout is much simpler than using sd_notify(). You haven't heard of it because I'm not in the "communication" phase yet. I want to get s6-rc ready first: deeds before words. They do whatever makes their lives easier, just like any other open source project out there. No, that's not the right way to look at it. Despite the licensing terms, systemd *does not* have an "open source" approach; it has a proprietary, company-driven approach, with the exact same political and technical stunts as proprietary software to make people use it, to make sure it grabs the market and holds it captive. As I said, systemd does not play fair: it pretends to play the open source game where projects are judged and adopted or ignored on mostly technical merits - but it's heavily skewing the rules and behaving in the open source world like a bully in a schoolyard. Which concrete problems did you, Jud
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
On 01/09/2015 10:29, Jaromil wrote: if you can confirm the plan of releasing r6-rc within september I confirm it. -- Laurent ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
On Tue, Sep 01, 2015 at 10:04:13AM +0200, Tobias Hunger wrote: [cut] > > Which concrete problems did you, Jude and whoever solve recently? > I know this is hard to believe for you, but all those efforts are intended to avoid a bloated software, whose conception has nothing to do with the most basic unix principles, whose development proceeds though an avalanche of "won't fix", whose aims have nothing to do with a general-purpose solution to some of the problems of "old" init systems. Whatever you can say, whichever fantastic feature your beloved monster has to offer, and whatever compelling argument you might find to support it, systemd will remain a misconceived, badly developed, bloated piece of software. There is really nothing you can do about that. Any attempt to argument with us, the cavemen, is futile. Cavemen understand only stone, wood and fire. Go conquer the world with your shiny spacecraft. > What is your (meant collectively here) proposal to manage cgroups > consistently? That is the one core feature of systemd that make other > software depend on systemd-PID1 - directly or indirectly via other services. > > Please blog as much as you can so that developers can find out about what > you are doing. Posting here won't get your message across I think. > I know this other piece is hard to understand for you as well, but technical solutions are not "discussed on blogs" but implemented, tested, adopted, debugged and improved over time. Discussions, explanations, diagrams, and blog posts, which seem to be so loved and appreciated in the systemd camp, are necessary only when the quality and clarity of a technical solution does not speak for itself. The code tells much more than we humans can. If code needs an explanation, there is something wrong with it. Go conquer the world. Please leave us playing in peace with our beloved fire, wood, and stones. HND KatolaZ -- [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
Tobias Hunger writes: > Am 31.08.2015 21:50 schrieb "KatolaZ" : >> The sole fact that you consider anything else than systemd as "a >> lesser" option[...] > > Hi KatolaZ, > > there are several inits (plus surrounding code like startup scripts) that > do not require a hack like that. It would still need to be determined if the process manager used in this case actually needs to be aware of the system state or if this is rather a flaw in the shutdown procedure, ie, it's not shutting down the process manager but the managed application without informing the process manager about it. The fact that "replacement inits" (just like "C string libraries") are classic 'rites de passage' programming and that their authors usually conflate them with process managers because that's how sysvinit works and they know that is still totally unrelated to that. [...] > And yes, checking for shutdown in a service is a hack. Things like that are > a maintenance nightmare in the long run, especially when they start to get > copied into other services. "Bad stuff might happen in future!" is a pretty generic, weak reason for anything: The process manager shouldn't need to be aware of the system being shut down because it's manageing a process and not the system. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
On Mon, 31 Aug 2015, Laurent Bercot wrote: > I'm working on it with s6-rc. Jude is working on the udev system > with vdev. Other people are working on the other parts of the Linux > userspace that systemd would love to phagocyte. And we are not > getting the kind of money or resources that the systemd lead > developers are, so it's a longer, harder task; but don't worry, the > competition exists and is getting better everyday. if you can confirm the plan of releasing r6-rc within september, then we'll mention it in the Devuan Beta announcement among the contemplated alternatives being developed. This should bring more attention and testers to the project, if this is desired at this stage. ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
On Mon, 31 Aug 2015, Tobias Hunger wrote: > And yes, any init system that needs hacks like the one tilt! is doing > for his display manager is a lesser one. so also busybox then, are they lesser userland utilities ? and uclibc or mulib, are they lesser libc implementations? how about Hurd or *BSD, are they lesser kernels? is there somewhere a linear comparison chart of what is better and what is lesser in *NIX? I imagine it could be maintained by systemd developers, since anyone else is a lesser hacker anyway. sarcasm aside, if there is one project that can say what is better code IMHO is the GNU project and our vision is not about quality being directly proportional to the quantities of features a system provides. Quality depends from many factors: documentation, flexibility, interoperability and design choices as language and code architecture, last but not least the purpose for the software being written... back to the hack you mention, I'm not sure anyone here is looking forward to judge each other hacks, but the way your conversation went with tilt! says a lot about other relational problems we may not want to debate here and that I perceive as affecting many systemd hooligans. ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
I'll refrain quoting the rest of the reply, which contains some obvious manipulations. On Tue, 01 Sep 2015, Tobias Hunger wrote: >Please blog as much as you can so that developers can find out about what >you are doing. Posting here won't get your message across I think. so now you are trying to convince people here that this is an unrelevant place for debate? what a fine strategy! Haven't you read my previous mail, that you are not welcome here? Are you following up to your declaration, that you'll just lurk, or should I proceed by other means? Tobias Hunger, you are not welcome here! ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
On Tue, 01 Sep 2015, tilt! wrote: > Speaking of which, my patch for "nodm" is online at [1]. > > Kind regards, > T. > > Links: > > [1] "nodm" Devuan package source 0.11-1.3~sls1. > URL: https://git.devuan.org/tilt/nodm Great :^) I hope Enrico has time to have a look and perhaps include the patch upstream. best wishes -- Denis "Jaromil" Roio, Dyne.org Think (& Do) Tank We are free to share code and we code to share freedom Web: https://j.dyne.org Contact: https://j.dyne.org/c.vcf GPG: 6113 D89C A825 C5CE DD02 C872 73B3 5DA5 4ACB 7D10 Confidential communications: https://keybase.io/jaromil signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
Hi Laurent, Am 31.08.2015 9:24 nachm. schrieb "Laurent Bercot" : > > On 31/08/2015 20:56, Tobias Hunger wrote: >> >> Oh, I am pretty happy with systemd and won't lie about that. I would >> still like to see some competition going. > > > That's pretty much the crux of the problem here. Nothing can compete > with systemd Now that is a really depressing outlook. I am way more positive than about your chances than that. X11 used to be impossible to replace because of drivers and we are pretty close to getting Wayland anyway. Heck, windows was the future for ages and now its Linux that rules everything but the desktop. Keep on hacking, you can make a difference:) > on the same grounds, because systemd covers so much ground > and does so many things (that *it should not* be doing) that any good > engineer who wants to design an alternative will see a lot of insane > features and immediately say "Nope, I'm not doing that, it's not the > init system's job"; and systemd proponents will always answer "See? > systemd is the only one that does that stuff, and all the competition > is inferior". Go talk to other developers, find out what bothers them about the non-systemd and systemd status quo and address those issues one by one. Then blog about that solution and try to get developers to use it. Act on their feedback when they provide it. I do not see that happening anywhere at this time. So far it is mostly claiming everything used to be fine before systemd. It was not. > Even where competition *can* happen, systemd likes to fudge the odds. So solve the same problem in a better way. Superior solutions *do* get adopted by developers. Most do not care a single bit where that solution comes from! > For an example that I know because I had to deal with it not long ago: > the sd_notify() protocol was made so that a process' supervisor has to > be listening on a Unix domain socket, which ultimately favors the model > where the supervisor for all the daemons is a single program performing > all the service management tasks: so in order to implement a server for > sd_notify, you basically have to adopt the systemd monolithic architecture, > which means, in essence, rewrite systemd - and, obviously, no sane > person wants to do that. I do not see why you would need the same socket for all daemons, but you probably know that matter better than me, so I have to trust you on that statement. > So by this single design choice, systemd ensures that it's the only > service manager that can actually implement sd_notify. And systemd > enthusiasts actively try to make daemon authors use sd_notify, saying > "Oh, but it's a good notification protocol; and the protocol is free, > and it's all open source, so people who want to write an alternative > server are free to do so!" with a bright smile and big, innocent > eyes; but it's nothing short of misleading and dishonest. SD_notify is so much simpler to do than double forking, so most developers will pick that on their own. Do something even simpler and they will use that instead. Developers want to solve the problems that interest them and will use the simplest possible solution for the others:-) > systemd does not play fair by *any* measure; They do whatever makes their lives easier, just like any other open source project out there. > the only way to provide > healthy competition is to ignore everything it's doing, and design > a sane, Unixish init system, as well as sane, Unixish administrative > tools, from the ground up. Yes, please! A reimplementation is no alternative and not a serious competition. > I'm working on it with s6-rc. Jude is working on the udev system > with vdev. Other people are working on the other parts of the Linux > userspace that systemd would love to phagocyte. And we are not > getting the kind of money or resources that the systemd lead > developers are, so it's a longer, harder task; but don't worry, the > competition exists and is getting better everyday. Which concrete problems did you, Jude and whoever solve recently? What is your (meant collectively here) proposal to manage cgroups consistently? That is the one core feature of systemd that make other software depend on systemd-PID1 - directly or indirectly via other services. Please blog as much as you can so that developers can find out about what you are doing. Posting here won't get your message across I think. Best Regards, Tobias ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
On Mon, 31 Aug 2015, KatolaZ wrote: > Go conquer the world with your little software-engineering > masterpiece, but please leave us poor cavemen in peace. You are very kind to call them "systemd-lovers" and call us cavemen. You are conceding a lot to people who are too full of themselves to even recognize the courtesy. This is definitely not a cavemen place and to be against the systemd avalanche does not means to be against progress or advancement. But thanks for your attitude, it helps avoiding the sparks being sown here to become flames. Another thing I wonder while reading this interaction is how old are systemd hooligans, when Tobias talks about "long run" and what goes bad with it. I have seen most experienced and elderly people so far being completely opposed to systemd. How far one can go claiming to have long-term vision in this situation? You are right, this is surreal, perhaps even worst: its a lie. While we go on with Devuan I'm happy not only because we are brilliantly achieving our goals, but also because I have an opportunity to listen to people who are *really* experienced and whose voice has been overcome for too long by arrogance and manipulation. Let them not be fatigued again to reply to this arrogance and lies, their time is more precious than that. ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
On 09/01/2015 07:49 AM, Tobias Hunger wrote: > [...] > And yes, checking for shutdown in a service is a hack. Things like > that are a maintenance nightmare in the long run, especially when > they start to get copied into other services. Speaking of which, my patch for "nodm" is online at [1]. Kind regards, T. Links: [1] "nodm" Devuan package source 0.11-1.3~sls1. URL: https://git.devuan.org/tilt/nodm ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
Am 31.08.2015 21:50 schrieb "KatolaZ" : > The sole fact that you consider anything else than systemd as "a > lesser" option[...] Hi KatolaZ, there are several inits (plus surrounding code like startup scripts) that do not require a hack like that. Systemd is just one of those and I am fully aware of that. Sorry for not making that clear in the original post. And yes, checking for shutdown in a service is a hack. Things like that are a maintenance nightmare in the long run, especially when they start to get copied into other services. Best Regards, Tobias ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
On Mon, 31 Aug 2015 20:59:24 +0100 Rainer Weikusat wrote: > KatolaZ writes: > [...] > > > Go conquer the world with your little software-engineering > > masterpiece, but please leave us poor cavemen in peace. > > The poor cavemen are the guys with the huge, elaborate stone tools > ... :-> Not huge or elaborate. The tools we top developers (not poor cavemen) use are durable, effective, modular, and assemblable. SteveT Steve Litt August 2015 featured book: Troubleshooting: Just the Facts http://www.troubleshooters.com/tjust ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
On Mon, 31 Aug 2015 20:56:33 +0200 Tobias Hunger wrote: > Oh, I am pretty happy with systemd and won't lie about that. I would > still like to see some competition going. > > And yes, any init system that needs hacks like the one tilt! is doing > for his display manager is a lesser one. O, now I get it. Rowland Penny was right. You *are* a troll. Jaomil was right in the questions he asked. I'd tell you if you wanted some competition, write it. But I have a feeling you'd just jumble up Devuan's development. Foot dragging allies are the most effective saboteurs, after all. LOL, in an earlier post you came off all righteous and indignant because you make patches to free software. Hey man, every single person on this list is contributing in one way or another: You don't get a medal for that, and you don't get permission, on the Devuan list, to call a sane init a "lesser init". You call s6-rc a "lesser init". Fine. 90% of the people on this list call systemd a "shit init" that breaks everything it touches, unless Red Hat pays guys like Lennart to make workarounds, and of course suckers like you contribute to Red Hat's coffers for free. Why don't you go back to Red Hat or Debian or wherever you came from, while we continue to surgically remove systemd's tenticles from the OS we love and Poettering has gone on record as saying is behind the times. SteveT Steve Litt August 2015 featured book: Troubleshooting: Just the Facts http://www.troubleshooters.com/tjust ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
KatolaZ writes: > On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 08:56:33PM +0200, Tobias Hunger wrote: > > [cut] > >> >> Oh, I am pretty happy with systemd and won't lie about that. I would >> still like to see some competition going. [...] > Go conquer the world with your little software-engineering > masterpiece, but please leave us poor cavemen in peace. The poor cavemen are the guys with the huge, elaborate stone tools ... :-> ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 08:56:33PM +0200, Tobias Hunger wrote: [cut] > > Oh, I am pretty happy with systemd and won't lie about that. I would > still like to see some competition going. > > And yes, any init system that needs hacks like the one tilt! is doing > for his display manager is a lesser one. The sole fact that you consider anything else than systemd as "a lesser" option and that would like to see "some competition going" confirms how different are the views, the motivations, the objectives, and the dreams on the two sides of the surreal barricade that systemd-lovers have built around themselves. As if a "systemd-vs-the-rest-of-the-world" war was going on. The story is much more simple and straight than you can imagine: we are not paid to allow RedHat gaining full control of the Linux server market, we don't like systemd (yes, there are people who don't agree with you), we don't buy the systemd propaganda, and we are doing our best to get around it. We have nothing to show to the world. There is no competition to enter. No prize to be won. No opponent to be massacred. Just the necessity to find an alternative to what we consider pure insanity. Go conquer the world with your little software-engineering masterpiece, but please leave us poor cavemen in peace. HND KatolaZ -- [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
Hi, On 08/31/2015 08:56 PM, Tobias Hunger wrote: > [...] > And yes, any init system that needs hacks like the one tilt! is > doing for his display manager is a lesser one. This is an outrage! I don't do "hacks", i perform highly qualified high-tech science development for the sake of future generations!1 Seriously, what's all the excitement about. The additional test i wrote for "nodm" works well, but i won't submit the patch yet, because i've been talking to the BSD folks, and they require yet a different type of test (which is actually very straightforward: "check for a nologin file"). I want to complete the test in that regard before submitting it. Isn't the BSD solution the punchiest of all? No runlevels, no services, no signalling fireworks, on-point semantics: "shutdown sets nologin, so nodm should not log in. The end." I have made a couple of interesting experiences when writing "jack-autostart". So far there's been no IPC problem i couldn't manage using signals, but when doing so, i found a little bug in "jackd" when it comes to shutting down a device driver due to a hotplug removal event. So, in this particular instance, it wasn't an init system or operating system that caused me trouble, but a small bug in one of the involved component programs, that, if everything goes well, i will even be able to fix. I think that's how it works - as soon as one seriously is using a system, one finds bugs and tries to get them eliminated. That's how stuff improves. Hopefully. Anyway, i see no need to bash each other's heads in like this. Kind regards, T. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
Tobias Hunger writes: > On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 7:40 PM, Jaromil wrote: [...] >> what really disturbed me is the arrogance of that definition "lesser >> init systems" which in general depicts pretty much the attitude of >> systemd hooligans, often scaling to full range trolling. >> >> "Lesser" may just be substituted with "Smaller". How about that? > > Oh, I am pretty happy with systemd and won't lie about that. I would > still like to see some competition going. > > And yes, any init system that needs hacks like the one tilt! is doing > for his display manager is a lesser one. It's not even clear if the process manager he happened to be using actually needs the grotty utmp hack or if that also supports some other way of being told to shut down now. But since the 'init system' he likely happens to be using doesn't incorporate 'process management', that's none of its business. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
On 31/08/2015 20:56, Tobias Hunger wrote: Oh, I am pretty happy with systemd and won't lie about that. I would still like to see some competition going. That's pretty much the crux of the problem here. Nothing can compete with systemd on the same grounds, because systemd covers so much ground and does so many things (that *it should not* be doing) that any good engineer who wants to design an alternative will see a lot of insane features and immediately say "Nope, I'm not doing that, it's not the init system's job"; and systemd proponents will always answer "See? systemd is the only one that does that stuff, and all the competition is inferior". Even where competition *can* happen, systemd likes to fudge the odds. For an example that I know because I had to deal with it not long ago: the sd_notify() protocol was made so that a process' supervisor has to be listening on a Unix domain socket, which ultimately favors the model where the supervisor for all the daemons is a single program performing all the service management tasks: so in order to implement a server for sd_notify, you basically have to adopt the systemd monolithic architecture, which means, in essence, rewrite systemd - and, obviously, no sane person wants to do that. So by this single design choice, systemd ensures that it's the only service manager that can actually implement sd_notify. And systemd enthusiasts actively try to make daemon authors use sd_notify, saying "Oh, but it's a good notification protocol; and the protocol is free, and it's all open source, so people who want to write an alternative server are free to do so!" with a bright smile and big, innocent eyes; but it's nothing short of misleading and dishonest. systemd does not play fair by *any* measure; the only way to provide healthy competition is to ignore everything it's doing, and design a sane, Unixish init system, as well as sane, Unixish administrative tools, from the ground up. I'm working on it with s6-rc. Jude is working on the udev system with vdev. Other people are working on the other parts of the Linux userspace that systemd would love to phagocyte. And we are not getting the kind of money or resources that the systemd lead developers are, so it's a longer, harder task; but don't worry, the competition exists and is getting better everyday. -- Laurent ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 7:40 PM, Jaromil wrote: > On Sun, 30 Aug 2015, Tobias Hunger wrote: > >> > if that is even a legitimate account, >> >> Yes. Did we get to the point where we need fake emails to follow up >> on free software projects now? > > since none of your emails are cryptographically signed, noone can really > tell if this is an impersonation. Bear in mind trolling is the main > tactic used by systemd hooligans: all those of us who got exposed > through Devuan have received various attacks of different kinds. Gmail is not the ideal place to sign mails, sorry:-( I did keep breaking my private mail server because I kept playing with it, so at some point I just gave up and moved everything over to gmail. I use email to follow mailing lists only and google indexes those anyway. But this mail is not signed either, so I could still be in impostor. >> > is he getting paid for his time spent here? > > my curiosity refers to the fact systemd has a development budget and a > propaganda budget: since years now there are many people on that > payroll. Of course the sort of asymmetry generated is nothing new for > standardization processes. They do not have the resources to pay for a github account. Guess that is due to all the money being in the propaganda budget. >> Seriously? I was answering to a direct technical question on systemd >> raised on this very list. > > This is not the only context where people think that "Small is > beautiful", to quote E.F. Schumacher. > > what really disturbed me is the arrogance of that definition "lesser > init systems" which in general depicts pretty much the attitude of > systemd hooligans, often scaling to full range trolling. > > "Lesser" may just be substituted with "Smaller". How about that? Oh, I am pretty happy with systemd and won't lie about that. I would still like to see some competition going. And yes, any init system that needs hacks like the one tilt! is doing for his display manager is a lesser one. Best Regards, Tobias ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
On Sun, 30 Aug 2015, Tobias Hunger wrote: > > if that is even a legitimate account, > > Yes. Did we get to the point where we need fake emails to follow up > on free software projects now? since none of your emails are cryptographically signed, noone can really tell if this is an impersonation. Bear in mind trolling is the main tactic used by systemd hooligans: all those of us who got exposed through Devuan have received various attacks of different kinds. > > is he getting paid for his time spent here? my curiosity refers to the fact systemd has a development budget and a propaganda budget: since years now there are many people on that payroll. Of course the sort of asymmetry generated is nothing new for standardization processes. > Seriously? I was answering to a direct technical question on systemd > raised on this very list. This is not the only context where people think that "Small is beautiful", to quote E.F. Schumacher. what really disturbed me is the arrogance of that definition "lesser init systems" which in general depicts pretty much the attitude of systemd hooligans, often scaling to full range trolling. "Lesser" may just be substituted with "Smaller". How about that? ciao signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
Steve Litt writes: > On Sun, 30 Aug 2015 21:11:01 -0500 > Nate Bargmann wrote: > >> And all along I thought a "dock" had to do with a place to put program >> icons on a desktop and that "docker" was a tool to handle it. I've >> ignored everything about virtual machines except for Virtual Box and >> QEMU. >> >> Evidently, I now have to know that a "container" is a virtual machine. >> Or is it? Seems like more buzz words for buzz words sake. >> >> - Nate > > There's a distinction. A VM is an instance of an entire operating > system, including kernel. It can run pretty much any OS as a guest. > > A container guest uses the host's OS, so the host must be Linux. The > advantage is very, very quick startup and very low resources, not > having to run an entire kernel in each instance. > > "Docker" is one implementation of a container. Not really. Linux provides so-called 'control groups' for manageing process groups and 'kernel namespaces' in order to facilitate presenting different 'views' of some (set of) kernel subsystem(s) to different processes. 'Docker' is (collectively) some middleware plus a user interface for enabling use of these kernel features to run applications (or groups of applications) isolated from other (groups of) applications(s) on the same system. As does the original 'Linux Containers' project, https://linuxcontainers.org/ and systemd as well. With their usual, charming, veraciousness, some systemd advocates like to represent using these features as "systemd innovations" and the systemd implementation is - also as usual - geared towards "thou shalt have no others before me". ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
On Sun, 30 Aug 2015 21:11:01 -0500 Nate Bargmann wrote: > And all along I thought a "dock" had to do with a place to put program > icons on a desktop and that "docker" was a tool to handle it. I've > ignored everything about virtual machines except for Virtual Box and > QEMU. > > Evidently, I now have to know that a "container" is a virtual machine. > Or is it? Seems like more buzz words for buzz words sake. > > - Nate There's a distinction. A VM is an instance of an entire operating system, including kernel. It can run pretty much any OS as a guest. A container guest uses the host's OS, so the host must be Linux. The advantage is very, very quick startup and very low resources, not having to run an entire kernel in each instance. "Docker" is one implementation of a container. SteveT Steve Litt August 2015 featured book: Troubleshooting: Just the Facts http://www.troubleshooters.com/tjust ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
And all along I thought a "dock" had to do with a place to put program icons on a desktop and that "docker" was a tool to handle it. I've ignored everything about virtual machines except for Virtual Box and QEMU. Evidently, I now have to know that a "container" is a virtual machine. Or is it? Seems like more buzz words for buzz words sake. - Nate -- "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true." Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
On 2015-08-31 05:34, Steve Litt wrote: On Sun, 30 Aug 2015 16:20:15 -0400 Clarke Sideroad wrote: It seems to me that with so much in common GNU/Linux or UNIX use that was so deeply flawed, he/Redhat would have been further ahead to just fork off and create Poettericks or or Poetterdows. No, because in a head to head showdown where people could alternate between Linux and PoetterGlom, in a year or two Linux would have won on technical merits. They had to wreck Linux before they could proceed with their plan. I guess the problem with heading in that direction would have be the lack of recognition, his project/operating system seems to have taken advantage of a well established name, Linux and managed to Hijack a large proportion of the userbase. a rather astute strategic and political move when you look at it that way. But ask, why does Redhat pay him for this. Redhat can't make money consulting a simple OS that any admin can admin. Follow the money. SteveT Steve Litt August 2015 featured book: Troubleshooting: Just the Facts http://www.troubleshooters.com/tjust ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng It's the NSA. Redhat is unsurprising ... debian? ... they must have spent years putting the right people in the right places ... ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
On Sun, 30 Aug 2015 16:20:15 -0400 Clarke Sideroad wrote: > It seems to me that with so much in common GNU/Linux or UNIX use that > was so deeply flawed, he/Redhat would have been further ahead to just > fork off and create Poettericks or or Poetterdows. No, because in a head to head showdown where people could alternate between Linux and PoetterGlom, in a year or two Linux would have won on technical merits. They had to wreck Linux before they could proceed with their plan. > > I guess the problem with heading in that direction would have be the > lack of recognition, his project/operating system seems to have taken > advantage of a well established name, Linux and managed to Hijack a > large proportion of the userbase. a rather astute strategic and > political move when you look at it that way. But ask, why does Redhat pay him for this. Redhat can't make money consulting a simple OS that any admin can admin. Follow the money. SteveT Steve Litt August 2015 featured book: Troubleshooting: Just the Facts http://www.troubleshooters.com/tjust ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
It seems to me that with so much in common GNU/Linux or UNIX use that was so deeply flawed, he/Redhat would have been further ahead to just fork off and create Poettericks or or Poetterdows. I guess the problem with heading in that direction would have be the lack of recognition, his project/operating system seems to have taken advantage of a well established name, Linux and managed to Hijack a large proportion of the userbase. a rather astute strategic and political move when you look at it that way. -Clarke ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
On 30/08/2015 20:54, Steve Litt wrote: http://www.ibuildthecloud.com/blog/2014/12/03/is-docker-fundamentally-flawed Very nice! Note that the article is about the containers' *host*. When people talk about "making systemd work with containers", they're usually meaning running systemd *in* the containers, i.e. they're talking about the containers' *guests*. Guests are the interesting case, because they're the production images, and that's what people want to make as smooth-sailing, and (if possible) small, as possible. That's what we focused on with the s6-overlay project, for instance. I had, naively, never thought that running the Docker daemon under a systemd host would be problematic. It's just a daemon, and systemd can run them, right ? Ha, ha, it would be too simple. The article stupefied me: because the Docker daemon does not conform to systemd's model, it is "fundamentally flawed" ? And they have the balls to ask docker to change models, because *only* systemd is supposed to handle cgroups ? They never wonder whether the problem wouldn't, by chance, come from systemd, that insists on being a global registry of everything on the host and on controlling everything, not allowing daemons to do their own thing. No, systemd is perfect, and the problem obviously comes from Docker. The nerve, hubris and total lack of shame of these people is baffling. And what's even more mind-boggling is that a large part of the community welcomes that attitude with open arms. -- Laurent ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
On Sun, 30 Aug 2015 13:39:28 +0100 Rainer Weikusat wrote: > Steve Litt writes: > > > On Sun, 30 Aug 2015 02:20:41 +0200 > > Laurent Bercot wrote: > > > >> On 29/08/2015 23:11, Steve Litt wrote: > >> > in my LUG, the most pro-systemd guys are the mega-metal admins > >> > administering hundreds of boxes with hundreds of Docker > >> > containers. These guys are telling me systemd is necessary to > >> > efficiently manage the Dockers. > >> > >> They're telling you that because they've been brainwashed with > >> that idea, and since it's working for them, they're too lazy to try > >> anything else. But they're wrong. Alpine Linux, for instance, makes > >> Docker containers a breeze to use, and makes the images a lot > >> smaller. Alpine is runit-based, and people have also found success > >> running Docker containers under s6; systemd is very unnecessary, > >> and anyone pretending it is is either ignorant or malicious. > > > > This is very good information. > > Something else you might want to have a look at: > > http://www.ibuildthecloud.com/blog/2014/12/03/is-docker-fundamentally-flawed Very nice! SteveT Steve Litt August 2015 featured book: Troubleshooting: Just the Facts http://www.troubleshooters.com/tjust ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
* On 2015 30 Aug 02:27 -0500, Steve Litt wrote: > You know why, Nate. You were on Debian-User in the bad old days. Back > in the day, how many times did I get called a conspiracy theorist for > answering that question. > > Three words: > > 1. Follow > 2. the > 3. money. Sigh, yes, I know. I'm still subscribed to the list and, sadly, legitimate concerns are labeled as "trolls". Such behavior tells me that there are some very deep misgivings about the technical superiority of systemd. People having legitimate concerns over the new systemd/udev enforced network interface naming convention (which seems to happen only on a new install of Stretch at this point) were summarily dismissed. It still baffles me why "eth0" is no longer "good enough". Anyone expressing doubt over the new direction seems dismissed as a troll even when questioning in good faith. What no one has made clear in this thread, nor in the one on D-U is will this new systemd functionality require the removal of su or the login package from the repository? - Nate -- "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true." Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
Steve Litt writes: > On Sun, 30 Aug 2015 02:20:41 +0200 > Laurent Bercot wrote: > >> On 29/08/2015 23:11, Steve Litt wrote: >> > in my LUG, the most pro-systemd guys are the mega-metal admins >> > administering hundreds of boxes with hundreds of Docker containers. >> > These guys are telling me systemd is necessary to efficiently manage >> > the Dockers. >> >> They're telling you that because they've been brainwashed with that >> idea, and since it's working for them, they're too lazy to try >> anything else. But they're wrong. Alpine Linux, for instance, makes >> Docker containers a breeze to use, and makes the images a lot smaller. >> Alpine is runit-based, and people have also found success running >> Docker containers under s6; systemd is very unnecessary, and anyone >> pretending it is is either ignorant or malicious. > > This is very good information. Something else you might want to have a look at: http://www.ibuildthecloud.com/blog/2014/12/03/is-docker-fundamentally-flawed ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
Laurent Bercot writes: > On 29/08/2015 14:43, Rainer Weikusat wrote: >> 'su' is not a concept, it's a program. > > Okay, let's clarify. > A program is the implementation of an idea. The idea is often > unwritten or unspoken, or forgotten, and people will only refer > to the implementation; but good design always starts with the idea, > the concept, of what the program is supposed to do. > > When Lennart says "su is a broken concept", he's saying "the > concept behind the su program is not clear or well-defined, and > it was not a good idea to implement it"; I completely understand that Poettering prefers to write something like "su is a broken concept" when he really means "What this program does is not what I'd like it to do and I'd like it to do things it doesn't do and since it wasn't written by me, it's not working in the way it had worked had I written the code." But "broken concept" doesn't really make any sense: Since ideas don't work, they can't be 'broken', ie not or no longer capable of working. su is a program supposed to be installed setuid-0 and what it basically does is setuid(geteuid()); execlp("/bin/sh", "sh", (void *)0); ie, it gets rid of any traces of the uid associated with the process which invoked it and then replaces itself with a shell. In the usual way, it then kept accumulating other features related to this simple task which helped other people to get certain things done. It's (AFAIK) no longer in active development, hence, the current feature set faithfully mirrors whatever some people considered useful in the early 1990s. In itself, this is a not a problem, it just means that su is more useful for certain tasks and less useful for others. The program is certainly not 'broken', either, as this would mean "the documented behaviour and the actual behaviour differ in unintended ways". Considering that 'concepts' can't be broken and that the program isn't broken, the statement is actually pure posturing devoid of any meaning: A somewhat technically sounding way to express "I don't care, bugger off". [...] > As you're saying, the correct design is to separate the tasks > that the su program accomplishes, if one doesn't need a full- > environment root shell. I wouldn't calls this "the correct design": It's a design I consider advantageous because it avoids a situation where a certain program 'organically' acquires some odd feature set which can't be changed in incompatible ways without affecting existing users and hence basically turns into a development dead-end. > But if a full-environment root shell is needed, logging in as > root works. That's exactly what the "login" _concept_ is. I'm not aware of any formal definition of "full-environment root shell" beyond "what the result of logging in as root by interacting with the following programs ..., ... and ... in the following way ..., ... happens to be". And I don't think such a formal definition would be useful. OTOH, executing 'the shell of some user' such that it considers itself a login shell, ie, processes the startup files such a shell is supposed to process is useful just not a panacea. Another tinygram doing that: - #include #include #include #include #include #define DEFAULT_SHELL "/bin/sh" static char *get_shell(void) { struct passwd *pwd; char *shell; shell = getenv("SHELL"); if (shell && *shell) return shell; pwd = getpwuid(getuid()); if (pwd && *pwd->pw_shell) return pwd->pw_shell; return DEFAULT_SHELL; } static char *get_shell_name(char *shell) { char *p0, *p1, *name; p0 = p1 = shell; while (*p1) { if (*p1 == '/') p0 = p1 + 1; ++p1; } if (!*p0) { fprintf(stderr, "Don't know what to make of '%s'\n", shell); exit(1); } name = sbrk((p1 - p0) + 2); if (!name) { perror("sbrk"); exit(1); } *name = '-'; strcpy(name + 1, p0); return name; } int main(void) { char *shell, *name; shell = get_shell(); name = get_shell_name(shell); execl(shell, name, (void *)0); perror("execl"); return 1; } -- Invoking this via sudo will result in an 'interactive' root login shell insofar the shell itself is concerned. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: ???su??? command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
On 30/08/2015 04:29, Isaac Dunham wrote: Correction for this: Alpine Linux is OpenRC based. Ah, sorry, I mixed them: it's Void Linux that's runit-based. -- Laurent ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
On Fri, 28 Aug 2015 16:47:18 +0100 Dave Turner wrote: > I always thought su was the wrong way to go about things. > Give me sudo every time. How much stuff do you want to put in sudoers? You really want to do what Ubuntu does? > (there are assorted long discussions about su vs sudo out there on > the interweb, let's not repeat them here!) > Just be glad we still have a choice! That's really the crux of it, isn't it. Whether we have a choice. Whether we have the right to say "hey, with my use case, I want to use sudo!" The systemd cabal is trying to take that away. Using my desktop, today I ran a program in lxterminal, and it failed for lack of root. No problem, I ran it with sudo, and that failed because the program wasn't in sudoers. No problem, I did su -c "program name with arguments" and bang, it got done. I sure like that ability, and I'd sure miss it when it's gone. I use it every day. Sometimes I need a root xterm. Now my mama didn't raise no fool, I run X as slitt, not as root. So when I need a root xterm, I run xterm, then run su -. No problem. For now. But Red Hat's working to make it a problem. SteveT Steve Litt August 2015 featured book: Troubleshooting: Just the Facts http://www.troubleshooters.com/tjust ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
On Sun, 30 Aug 2015 02:20:41 +0200 Laurent Bercot wrote: > On 29/08/2015 23:11, Steve Litt wrote: > > in my LUG, the most pro-systemd guys are the mega-metal admins > > administering hundreds of boxes with hundreds of Docker containers. > > These guys are telling me systemd is necessary to efficiently manage > > the Dockers. > > They're telling you that because they've been brainwashed with that > idea, and since it's working for them, they're too lazy to try > anything else. But they're wrong. Alpine Linux, for instance, makes > Docker containers a breeze to use, and makes the images a lot smaller. > Alpine is runit-based, and people have also found success running > Docker containers under s6; systemd is very unnecessary, and anyone > pretending it is is either ignorant or malicious. This is very good information. Thanks, SteveT Steve Litt August 2015 featured book: Troubleshooting: Just the Facts http://www.troubleshooters.com/tjust ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
On Sat, 29 Aug 2015 18:05:47 -0500 Nate Bargmann wrote: > * On 2015 29 Aug 16:14 -0500, Steve Litt wrote: > > > Yeah, that isn't a problem, and shouldn't be a problem. > > Interestingly, in my LUG, the most pro-systemd guys are the > > mega-metal admins administering hundreds of boxes with hundreds of > > Docker containers. These guys are telling me systemd is necessary > > to efficiently manage the Dockers. > > Okay, then the big official unanswered question is why don't RH, > et. al. just target that use case and leave the rest of us alone? Why > does the rest of the ecosystem need this big sucking sound? :-) You know why, Nate. You were on Debian-User in the bad old days. Back in the day, how many times did I get called a conspiracy theorist for answering that question. Three words: 1. Follow 2. the 3. money. SteveT Steve Litt August 2015 featured book: Troubleshooting: Just the Facts http://www.troubleshooters.com/tjust ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
Hi Matteo, On 08/29/2015 02:53 PM, Matteo Panella wrote: [...] On a server, tough, it just does its job nicely (unless you need strict audit of root-level actions, in which case sudo with a MAC system should be your starting point). So much noise (and security-critical code) for nothing. If systemd needs an own program "get me a shell for user X" for their scripts, that accomplishes a very specific setup, specific envvar filtering and such, why not? The developers are free to create what they want and need. As a C programmer, i code stuff like that all the time, when i need specific signal handling, a clean environment, fd and terminal setup... and if i had a lot of work with it, on a bad day, I probably ranted on some existing software in a release note as well (why can't it do this, why do i have to code this at all, blahblah). As a shell script programmer, i use "su" rarely; interactively i use it quite often, and i have no problem with it, if i distinguish "su" from "su -" and keep in mind when to use which. If i personally wanted to write such a "give me a shell" command, i would have different priorities, and it would do different stuff that exactly fits they way i want to work. It would be less universal than what "su" is now, and, being tested just by me, probably less secure. Therefore i would not think of it as a replacement of the "su" command, and if i published it, i would not label it as such. Kind regards, T. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: ???su??? command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 02:20:41AM +0200, Laurent Bercot wrote: > [snip] Alpine Linux, for instance, makes Docker > containers a breeze to use, and makes the images a lot smaller. > Alpine is runit-based, and people have also found success running Docker > containers under s6; systemd is very unnecessary, and anyone pretending > it is is either ignorant or malicious. Correction for this: Alpine Linux is OpenRC based. There is some level of runit integration, but I'm pretty sure it's not the base of the primary rc system (unless they did some *big* changes with no discussion on either list over the last couple weeks). HTH, Isaac Dunham ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
On 30/08/2015 01:13, Simon Hobson wrote: I don't think anyone has suggested it's for servers only. But, there is an argument for picking the low hanging fruit - and that means trying to do the "easy" bits first. I've not really followed it in detail, but from what I've read it does seem that the desktop environments have been the most tightly bound to systemd. IMO it makes sense to try and get a "non desktop" system sorted, and then tackle the harder problem of getting the desktop stuff cleansed. Honestly, servers are easy, and a few distros have always gone pretty far with what they're doing with servers: Alpine Linux, Void Linux, and many others I'm not following as closely. The "big" or "mainstream" distributions are called that way because they're the ones that people install on their desktops. I'm interested in Devuan because I view it as a replacement for Debian, which I had on my desktop at some point. If it's about a server, I already have lots of distributions to pick from, including not using one in the first place. -- Laurent ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
On 29/08/2015 23:11, Steve Litt wrote: in my LUG, the most pro-systemd guys are the mega-metal admins administering hundreds of boxes with hundreds of Docker containers. These guys are telling me systemd is necessary to efficiently manage the Dockers. They're telling you that because they've been brainwashed with that idea, and since it's working for them, they're too lazy to try anything else. But they're wrong. Alpine Linux, for instance, makes Docker containers a breeze to use, and makes the images a lot smaller. Alpine is runit-based, and people have also found success running Docker containers under s6; systemd is very unnecessary, and anyone pretending it is is either ignorant or malicious. Yeah, whatever, give me the budget Redhat gave the systemd cabal, so I can hire good programmers, and I'll make it work efficiently without breaking Linux and entangling everything. If you have 1/10 of that budget and are hiring, I'm available and willing to full-time this. ;) -- Laurent ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 12:13:43AM +0100, Simon Hobson wrote: > > I don't think it's so much a packaging decision by Debian, more a case of > what the upstream devs have done. The Debian decision was (AIUI) "we don't > have the resources to remove the crap" - not a decision to add it, just a > realisation that the project couldn't remove it with the time and resources > available. > I did note some rather naive suggestions that somehow it would be > possible to remove it later. We're the later. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 12:13:43AM +0100, Simon Hobson wrote: [cut] > > > Right now with Debian Jessie systemd must be installed to make the > > desktop anywhere near functional, but that is a result of packaging > > decisions by Debian ... > > I don't think it's so much a packaging decision by Debian, more a case of > what the upstream devs have done. The Debian decision was (AIUI) "we don't > have the resources to remove the crap" - not a decision to add it, just a > realisation that the project couldn't remove it with the time and resources > available. I'm sorry but it does not seem to me that the story went like you say. Debian deliberately decided to go for systemd, at a time when no tight systemd dependency existed anywhere in Debian. Please do not forget that the first versions of jessie (testing) were still using sysvinit by default, and none of the packages required systemd to be there. AFAIR there was no mention about the amount of resources needed to "remove the crap" as you say. There were instead specific and identifiable responsabilities by the Debian Project Leader and by the Technical Committee, who decided to ignore all the pressures to stay with sysvinit that came from the userbase and from the developers. Those decisions were not made on the basis of the amount of work needed to contain systemd (which became really a problem *after* Debian chose it as a default), but following an unspecified "need" to go for the best technical solution available on the market. Once systemd was declared the standard in Debian, packagers had to adapt to the new riff and to go all-in in supporting systemd. Those who didn't like it, resigned and moved elsewhere. The present is crap and the future is foggy, so there is no reason at all to mess up with the past as well... HND KatolaZ -- [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
Nate Bargmann wrote: > I'll add my voice to the chorus objecting to the idea that removal of > systemd is for servers only. I don't think anyone has suggested it's for servers only. But, there is an argument for picking the low hanging fruit - and that means trying to do the "easy" bits first. I've not really followed it in detail, but from what I've read it does seem that the desktop environments have been the most tightly bound to systemd. IMO it makes sense to try and get a "non desktop" system sorted, and then tackle the harder problem of getting the desktop stuff cleansed. > Right now with Debian Jessie systemd must be installed to make the > desktop anywhere near functional, but that is a result of packaging > decisions by Debian ... I don't think it's so much a packaging decision by Debian, more a case of what the upstream devs have done. The Debian decision was (AIUI) "we don't have the resources to remove the crap" - not a decision to add it, just a realisation that the project couldn't remove it with the time and resources available. I did note some rather naive suggestions that somehow it would be possible to remove it later. I'd be surprised if the resources increased, and it'll be a lot harder to remove stuff now they've allowed packagers to add "gratuitous" systemd dependencies. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 12:31:44AM +0200, Tobias Hunger wrote: > Hi Jaromil, > > On Sat, Aug 29, 2015 at 9:32 PM, Jaromil wrote: > >>Hi Rainer, do you know that you are feeding a troll ? > >>tobias.hun...@gmail.com appears to be a systemd developer > > I tend to send patches to open source projects that I get into contact > with. It is a really annoying habit I picked up in that free software > scene you might have heard of before. > > Yes, I have a hand full of tiny patches in systemd. Got a few more in > firefox and a couple other places, but would still not call myself a > mozilla developer. A few patches does not at troll make. -- hendrik > > > if that is even a legitimate account, > > Yes. > > Did we get to the point where we need fake emails to follow up on free > software projects now? > > > is he getting paid for his time spent here? > > Sure, I am going to buy a new villa with the millions of euros I make > following a bunch of nerds doing yet another Linux distribution! Can > you recommend a nice place with enough room to mount a 16t mind > control ray on the roof? > > > I find it disturbing. systemd has plenty of avenues for propaganda in Linux > > related tradeshows and some very insisting, annoying and intrusive sorts of > > door-to-door sales people like Tobias. > > Seriously? I was answering to a direct technical question on systemd > raised on this very list. > > > perhaps it should be more clear that they are not welcome here, especially > > if they look for another space to lecture on how systemd works better than > > other "lesser init systems". > > I personally try to understand code that I am going to remove from the > projects I work on and for that reason I am happy to have some people > around that actually are willing and able to answer questions on that > code. > > If you prefer to muck around in the dark here, then I will heed that > wish and lurk only. > > Best Regards, > Tobias > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
* On 2015 29 Aug 16:14 -0500, Steve Litt wrote: > Yeah, that isn't a problem, and shouldn't be a problem. Interestingly, > in my LUG, the most pro-systemd guys are the mega-metal admins > administering hundreds of boxes with hundreds of Docker containers. > These guys are telling me systemd is necessary to efficiently manage > the Dockers. Okay, then the big official unanswered question is why don't RH, et. al. just target that use case and leave the rest of us alone? Why does the rest of the ecosystem need this big sucking sound? It's one thing to develop a tool that makes life easier in some case and quite another to preach that it's needed *everywhere* and pull in the gullible with influence that then dictate this shiny thing is to be valued above all else. - Nate -- "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true." Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
Hi Jaromil, actually I was not replying to a technical question on systemd, that was my other mail to the question of tilt! I replied to earlier. You are right in that I should have known better than to get into this thread. A bad case of https://xkcd.com/386/ :-) Sorry, and now going to lurk-mode in earnest;-) Best Regards, Tobias On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 12:31 AM, Tobias Hunger wrote: > Hi Jaromil, > > On Sat, Aug 29, 2015 at 9:32 PM, Jaromil wrote: >>>Hi Rainer, do you know that you are feeding a troll ? >>>tobias.hun...@gmail.com appears to be a systemd developer > > I tend to send patches to open source projects that I get into contact > with. It is a really annoying habit I picked up in that free software > scene you might have heard of before. > > Yes, I have a hand full of tiny patches in systemd. Got a few more in > firefox and a couple other places, but would still not call myself a > mozilla developer. > >> if that is even a legitimate account, > > Yes. > > Did we get to the point where we need fake emails to follow up on free > software projects now? > >> is he getting paid for his time spent here? > > Sure, I am going to buy a new villa with the millions of euros I make > following a bunch of nerds doing yet another Linux distribution! Can > you recommend a nice place with enough room to mount a 16t mind > control ray on the roof? > >> I find it disturbing. systemd has plenty of avenues for propaganda in Linux >> related tradeshows and some very insisting, annoying and intrusive sorts of >> door-to-door sales people like Tobias. > > Seriously? I was answering to a direct technical question on systemd > raised on this very list. > >> perhaps it should be more clear that they are not welcome here, especially >> if they look for another space to lecture on how systemd works better than >> other "lesser init systems". > > I personally try to understand code that I am going to remove from the > projects I work on and for that reason I am happy to have some people > around that actually are willing and able to answer questions on that > code. > > If you prefer to muck around in the dark here, then I will heed that > wish and lurk only. > > Best Regards, > Tobias ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
Hi Jaromil, On Sat, Aug 29, 2015 at 9:32 PM, Jaromil wrote: >>Hi Rainer, do you know that you are feeding a troll ? >>tobias.hun...@gmail.com appears to be a systemd developer I tend to send patches to open source projects that I get into contact with. It is a really annoying habit I picked up in that free software scene you might have heard of before. Yes, I have a hand full of tiny patches in systemd. Got a few more in firefox and a couple other places, but would still not call myself a mozilla developer. > if that is even a legitimate account, Yes. Did we get to the point where we need fake emails to follow up on free software projects now? > is he getting paid for his time spent here? Sure, I am going to buy a new villa with the millions of euros I make following a bunch of nerds doing yet another Linux distribution! Can you recommend a nice place with enough room to mount a 16t mind control ray on the roof? > I find it disturbing. systemd has plenty of avenues for propaganda in Linux > related tradeshows and some very insisting, annoying and intrusive sorts of > door-to-door sales people like Tobias. Seriously? I was answering to a direct technical question on systemd raised on this very list. > perhaps it should be more clear that they are not welcome here, especially if > they look for another space to lecture on how systemd works better than other > "lesser init systems". I personally try to understand code that I am going to remove from the projects I work on and for that reason I am happy to have some people around that actually are willing and able to answer questions on that code. If you prefer to muck around in the dark here, then I will heed that wish and lurk only. Best Regards, Tobias ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
On Sat, 29 Aug 2015 15:20:01 -0500 Nate Bargmann wrote: > * On 2015 29 Aug 10:15 -0500, poitr pogo wrote: > > So let them build desktop oriented linux, and let us focus on the > > server oriented version. > > I'll add my voice to the chorus objecting to the idea that removal of > systemd is for servers only. So will I. Bad architecture is something I don't want on my possessions, whether server, desktop or sewing machine. Because unlike the chumps shelling out money for Red Hat support, I fix my own stuff. SteveT Steve Litt August 2015 featured book: Troubleshooting: Just the Facts http://www.troubleshooters.com/tjust ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
On Sat, 29 Aug 2015 20:34:29 +0200 Laurent Bercot wrote: > Oh, I'm not blaming some abstract entity called "su". When I say > that su is not good (anymore), it's obviously on us. > There's a reason why I have written programs performing privilege > gain without bit s executables. ;) > Now let me ask you this Laurent. Your programs performing privilege gain without bit s executables: Did you tie them into the init system? Did you tie them into (not allow them to be called from, but tie them into) lots of other executables? Does the system break if someone replaces your execuables with (almost) equivalents? Didn't think so, and that's the whole point. SteveT Steve Litt August 2015 featured book: Troubleshooting: Just the Facts http://www.troubleshooters.com/tjust ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
On Sat, 29 Aug 2015 17:45:01 +0200 Tobias Hunger wrote: > Hi Rainer, > > On Sat, Aug 29, 2015 at 3:48 PM, Rainer Weikusat > wrote: > > If not, then not. But > > the reason why su is only of limited usefulness is not because the > > hardcoded policy isn't complicated enough to include > > > > $random_thing_someone_called_lennart_also_wants > > > > for every conceivable value of the variable but because it has a > > hardcoded policy at all and the solution is not "implement another, > > random environment munger more to tastes of ..." but split it apart: > > That is exactly what systemd implemented: The uid/gid gets changed and > then you get exactly the same environment that gets set up for you > during login. Nothing is merged, no munching of anything is happening > anymore. [snip] > > So you have to worry about users sneaking in a "muncher" (e.g. by > manipulating PATH, LD_PRELOAD or whatnot) that will be run with the > new uid/gid and can attack the user and system to its hearts content. > Very bad idea. Some things are not as dynamic as they could be for a > reason. Regardless of all this theoretical stuff, su works beautifully in some peoples' use cases. If the Redhats want to make a parallel thing, fine. But don't contaminate su, and don't fix it so programs that used to work with su now only work with PoetterPermissions or whatever it's called. It's called halloween code for a reason. SteveT Steve Litt August 2015 featured book: Troubleshooting: Just the Facts http://www.troubleshooters.com/tjust ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
On Sat, 29 Aug 2015 08:22:23 -0700 Go Linux wrote: > On Sat, 8/29/15, poitr pogo wrote: > > Subject: Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement > merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide To: "dng" > Date: Saturday, August 29, 2015, 10:14 AM > > > > > So let them build desktop oriented linux, and let us focus on the > > server oriented version. > > > > > > G . . . How about a systemd-free Linux that can be the base for > server or desktop use . . . > > golinux Yeah, that isn't a problem, and shouldn't be a problem. Interestingly, in my LUG, the most pro-systemd guys are the mega-metal admins administering hundreds of boxes with hundreds of Docker containers. These guys are telling me systemd is necessary to efficiently manage the Dockers. Yeah, whatever, give me the budget Redhat gave the systemd cabal, so I can hire good programmers, and I'll make it work efficiently without breaking Linux and entangling everything. Back to sane desktop linux, basically, we could run a panel with Openbox, and if either Openbox or the panel get poetterized, we can fork. SteveT Steve Litt August 2015 featured book: Troubleshooting: Just the Facts http://www.troubleshooters.com/tjust ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
On Sat, 29 Aug 2015 16:38:33 +0200 Laurent Bercot wrote: > On 29/08/2015 14:43, Rainer Weikusat wrote: > > 'su' is not a concept, it's a program. > >Okay, let's clarify. > A program is the implementation of an idea. The idea is often > unwritten or unspoken, or forgotten, and people will only refer > to the implementation; but good design always starts with the idea, > the concept, of what the program is supposed to do. > > When Lennart says "su is a broken concept", he's saying "the > concept behind the su program is not clear or well-defined, and > it was not a good idea to implement it"; and I agree with that. > (Then he naturally branches onto his NIH obsession and decides > that UNIX is bad and systemd must reinvent everything, which I > obviously disagree with.) > > As you're saying, the correct design is to separate the tasks > that the su program accomplishes, if one doesn't need a full- > environment root shell. > But if a full-environment root shell is needed, logging in as > root works. That's exactly what the "login" _concept_ is. The point is this: If su is a broken concept, write a substitute. Publicize the substitute. Proclaim from the town square that su is depricated. But leave su functional for those who make the choice to use it! SteveT Steve Litt August 2015 featured book: Troubleshooting: Just the Facts http://www.troubleshooters.com/tjust ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
On Sat, 29 Aug 2015 15:03:00 +0100 Edward Bartolo wrote: > This is heartbreaking rather than a show. Replace everything that used > to work reliably for so many years with what clueless beginners want! > > The plague has come, but not in the form of a deadly bacterium, but in > the new trend of, "sacrificing function for fashion". Speaking of which: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQAR-nx4w88 I especially like the line: = Eagerly persuing all the latest fads and trends = SteveT Steve Litt August 2015 featured book: Troubleshooting: Just the Facts http://www.troubleshooters.com/tjust ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
* On 2015 29 Aug 10:15 -0500, poitr pogo wrote: > So let them build desktop oriented linux, and let us focus on the > server oriented version. I'll add my voice to the chorus objecting to the idea that removal of systemd is for servers only. My first use of Linux (Slackware specifically) was as a desktop system 19 years ago. I have some Raspberry Pi computers doing some dedicated tasks (not certain if they are "servers" but they are headless). Right now with Debian Jessie systemd must be installed to make the desktop anywhere near functional, but that is a result of packaging decisions by Debian and not any intrinsic need for systemd on a desktop system at this time. I am looking forward to being able to install pulseaudio and lightdm without a dependency on systemd. I had to install all of them last night to get all of my amateur radio software to play together again. systemd brought in 53 MB of cruft (after installation) I didn't exactly need. - Nate -- "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true." Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
On August 29, 2015 6:54:44 PM GMT+02:00, Rowland Penny wrote: >Hi Rainer, do you know that you are feeding a troll ? >tobias.hun...@gmail.com appears to be a systemd developer if that is even a legitimate account, is he getting paid for his time spent here? I find it disturbing. systemd has plenty of avenues for propaganda in Linux related tradeshows and some very insisting, annoying and intrusive sorts of door-to-door sales people like Tobias. perhaps it should be more clear that they are not welcome here, especially if they look for another space to lecture on how systemd works better than other "lesser init systems". ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
On 29/08/2015 20:10, KatolaZ wrote: Well, I wouldn't say that su is a broken concept on its own. In assessing the quality of ideas and software one should always take into account the motivations which led to a certain solution. su appeared in AT&T Unix Version 1: Yes. However, Unix has evolved in 40 years, sometimes in a good way, sometimes in a not so good way. And piling on more functionality into su wasn't exactly the best idea: from a simple privilege-gaining tool, it mutated into something between what it was and a complete login - it lost the clarity of concept it had at first. The fact that we have gone a bit further than that with su, asking it to do things it was not conceived for, is our problem, not su's one. Oh, I'm not blaming some abstract entity called "su". When I say that su is not good (anymore), it's obviously on us. There's a reason why I have written programs performing privilege gain without bit s executables. ;) -- Laurent ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
On Sat, Aug 29, 2015 at 04:38:33PM +0200, Laurent Bercot wrote: > On 29/08/2015 14:43, Rainer Weikusat wrote: > >'su' is not a concept, it's a program. > > Okay, let's clarify. > A program is the implementation of an idea. The idea is often > unwritten or unspoken, or forgotten, and people will only refer > to the implementation; but good design always starts with the idea, > the concept, of what the program is supposed to do. > > When Lennart says "su is a broken concept", he's saying "the > concept behind the su program is not clear or well-defined, and > it was not a good idea to implement it"; and I agree with that. > (Then he naturally branches onto his NIH obsession and decides > that UNIX is bad and systemd must reinvent everything, which I > obviously disagree with.) Well, I wouldn't say that su is a broken concept on its own. In assessing the quality of ideas and software one should always take into account the motivations which led to a certain solution. su appeared in AT&T Unix Version 1: http://man.cat-v.org/unix-1st/1/su and by reading the original manpage one realises that the rationale for having such a command was quite understandable and sound: if you alredy have a working session (and you are behind a teletype), and you want to execute a few commands as root, there is no reason to logout, login as root, execute the command, logout from root, login again on your account. Nowadays it might seem to somebody a broken concept, but that's just because they have in mind a different use case. And they want to do more than su with something like su. After all, pens did not become a "broken concept" when typewriters were invented... The fact that we have gone a bit further than that with su, asking it to do things it was not conceived for, is our problem, not su's one. The "solution" proposed by systemd is (as usual) against the original principles behind unix, since from the interface: $ machinectl shell (16 characters) $ su (2 characters) Yes, they will say that with the former command you can do better, smarter and more marvellous things, but if you just need to become root to install one package, you would probably be better off with su anyway. HND KatolaZ -- [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
On 29/08/15 17:50, Rainer Weikusat wrote: Tobias Hunger writes: On Sat, Aug 29, 2015 at 3:48 PM, Rainer Weikusat wrote: 'su' is a somewhat generic setuid-0 program: It changes the uid and the gids associated with itself to the ones for a certain user and then executes a shell. In addition to that, it contains another "random environment munger" with features someone happend to consider useful for the su use cases he envisioned. If this happens to be what enables someone else to achieve something he wanted to achieve, 'su' can obviously be used for that. If not, then not. But the reason why su is only of limited usefulness is not because the hardcoded policy isn't complicated enough to include $random_thing_someone_called_lennart_also_wants for every conceivable value of the variable but because it has a hardcoded policy at all and the solution is not "implement another, random environment munger more to tastes of ..." but split it apart: That is exactly what systemd implemented: No, that's not "exactly what systemd implemented", as The uid/gid gets changed and then you get exactly the same environment that gets set up for you during login. and I wasn't writing about emulating/ simulating a "login environment" (BTW, what's that?) for the sake of doing so. Pretty much the opposite, actually: Instead of a "new and improved" hard-coded policy someone associated with the 'shadow password suite' happened to dream up, get rid of the policy altogether. Have a program which changes uids and gids and executes another program. Another program for the become root via setuid and execute ... part. And a third program (or any number of such programs) to perform other modifications of the execution environment. So you have to worry about users sneaking in a "muncher" (e.g. by manipulating PATH, LD_PRELOAD or whatnot) that will be run with the new uid/gid and can attack the user and system to its hearts content. *If* manipulating the environment (here supposed to refer to "what environ points to") in a certain way is considered necessary, programs doing that can be employed, eg (I didn't need these two particular tools so far so this is sort-of a demo): --- kill-env.c - #include #include extern char **environ; int main(int argc, char **argv) { environ = NULL; execv(argv[1], argv + 1); perror("execv"); return 1; } set-path.c #include #include #include int main(int argc, char **argv) { int rc; rc = setenv("PATH", argv[1], 1); if (rc == -1) { perror("setenv"); exit(1); } execvp(argv[2], argv + 2); perror("execv"); return 1; } Assuming both programs have been compiled into binaries named in the indicated way and reside in the current directory, they could be used like this: [rw@doppelsaurus]/tmp#./kill-env ./set-path /usr/bin env PATH=/usr/bin A real 'environment initialization program' should probably support reading the environment from a file and another which interprets some of its arguments as name-value pairs could be useful, too. A complete command could then look like this: /bin/replace-env /etc/daemon-env set-env USER blafasel TERM vt100 -- env NB: This approach is not intended to be convenient for interactive use, it should just also enable that. It's supposed to enable creating complex 'process startup commands' by combining simple parts. NB^2: I'm also absolutely not concerned with "fork and exec overhead" unless there's an actual use case I need to handle where it demonstrably makes a relevant difference. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng Hi Rainer, do you know that you are feeding a troll ? tobias.hun...@gmail.com appears to be a systemd developer ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
Tobias Hunger writes: > On Sat, Aug 29, 2015 at 3:48 PM, Rainer Weikusat > wrote: >> 'su' is a somewhat generic setuid-0 program: It changes the uid and the >> gids associated with itself to the ones for a certain user and then >> executes a shell. In addition to that, it contains another "random >> environment munger" with features someone happend to consider useful for >> the su use cases he envisioned. If this happens to be what enables >> someone else to achieve something he wanted to achieve, 'su' can >> obviously be used for that. If not, then not. But the reason why su is >> only of limited usefulness is not because the hardcoded policy isn't >> complicated enough to include >> >> $random_thing_someone_called_lennart_also_wants >> >> for every conceivable value of the variable but because it has a >> hardcoded policy at all and the solution is not "implement another, >> random environment munger more to tastes of ..." but split it apart: > > That is exactly what systemd implemented: No, that's not "exactly what systemd implemented", as > The uid/gid gets changed and then you get exactly the same environment > that gets set up for you during login. and I wasn't writing about emulating/ simulating a "login environment" (BTW, what's that?) for the sake of doing so. Pretty much the opposite, actually: Instead of a "new and improved" hard-coded policy someone associated with the 'shadow password suite' happened to dream up, get rid of the policy altogether. >> Have a program which changes uids and gids and executes another >> program. Another program for the become root via setuid and execute >> ... part. And a third program (or any number of such programs) to >> perform other modifications of the execution environment. > > So you have to worry about users sneaking in a "muncher" (e.g. by > manipulating PATH, LD_PRELOAD or whatnot) that will be run with the > new uid/gid and can attack the user and system to its hearts content. *If* manipulating the environment (here supposed to refer to "what environ points to") in a certain way is considered necessary, programs doing that can be employed, eg (I didn't need these two particular tools so far so this is sort-of a demo): --- kill-env.c - #include #include extern char **environ; int main(int argc, char **argv) { environ = NULL; execv(argv[1], argv + 1); perror("execv"); return 1; } set-path.c #include #include #include int main(int argc, char **argv) { int rc; rc = setenv("PATH", argv[1], 1); if (rc == -1) { perror("setenv"); exit(1); } execvp(argv[2], argv + 2); perror("execv"); return 1; } Assuming both programs have been compiled into binaries named in the indicated way and reside in the current directory, they could be used like this: [rw@doppelsaurus]/tmp#./kill-env ./set-path /usr/bin env PATH=/usr/bin A real 'environment initialization program' should probably support reading the environment from a file and another which interprets some of its arguments as name-value pairs could be useful, too. A complete command could then look like this: /bin/replace-env /etc/daemon-env set-env USER blafasel TERM vt100 -- env NB: This approach is not intended to be convenient for interactive use, it should just also enable that. It's supposed to enable creating complex 'process startup commands' by combining simple parts. NB^2: I'm also absolutely not concerned with "fork and exec overhead" unless there's an actual use case I need to handle where it demonstrably makes a relevant difference. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
On 08/28/2015 11:00 AM, Michael Bütow wrote: > Article here: > > https://tlhp.cf/lennart-poettering-su/ > > I for one look forward to not having any of this madness one day when I > transition completely to Devuan! > su --> machinectl shell Obviously, too many people were getting root too easily. This should slow them down. --setenv="SYSTEMD_TEST=777" That's a slightly disturbing choice for an example value, given the context. What was on his mind? fsr ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
Hi Rainer, On Sat, Aug 29, 2015 at 3:48 PM, Rainer Weikusat wrote: > 'su' is a somewhat generic setuid-0 program: It changes the uid and the > gids associated with itself to the ones for a certain user and then > executes a shell. In addition to that, it contains another "random > environment munger" with features someone happend to consider useful for > the su use cases he envisioned. If this happens to be what enables > someone else to achieve something he wanted to achieve, 'su' can > obviously be used for that. If not, then not. But the reason why su is > only of limited usefulness is not because the hardcoded policy isn't > complicated enough to include > > $random_thing_someone_called_lennart_also_wants > > for every conceivable value of the variable but because it has a > hardcoded policy at all and the solution is not "implement another, > random environment munger more to tastes of ..." but split it apart: That is exactly what systemd implemented: The uid/gid gets changed and then you get exactly the same environment that gets set up for you during login. Nothing is merged, no munching of anything is happening anymore. > Have a program which changes uids and gids and executes another > program. Another program for the become root via setuid and execute > ... part. And a third program (or any number of such programs) to > perform other modifications of the execution environment. So you have to worry about users sneaking in a "muncher" (e.g. by manipulating PATH, LD_PRELOAD or whatnot) that will be run with the new uid/gid and can attack the user and system to its hearts content. Very bad idea. Some things are not as dynamic as they could be for a reason. Best Regards, Tobias ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
On Sat, Aug 29, 2015 at 05:14:50PM +0200, poitr pogo wrote: ... > So let them build desktop oriented linux, and let us focus on the > server oriented version. I'm completely happy with devuan as a desktop system. Plaeas don't abandon the desktop. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
It's the NSA. Sneaking binary logs into linux and so forth. Taking over the system. Redhat's corporate and just down the pike from Fort Meade. Lennart's a mole. Seems obvious to me, anyway. On 2015-08-29 22:14, poitr pogo wrote: Hi, On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 5:00 PM, Michael Bütow wrote: Article here: https://tlhp.cf/lennart-poettering-su/ I for one look forward to not having any of this madness one day when I transition completely to Devuan! This is rather good news, as this is extension to systemd not to su. As systemd is it's own echosystem of some kind, with all that new session/terminal/process management using cgroups, etc. it is natural that it needs su-like feature, which will handle all this systemd internals properly. IMHO systemd is some kind of an android like layer between kernel and desktop applications, providing it's own api/libraties/sdk. I bet gnome will became a GUI part of systemd at some point. With API allowing building linux based applications using html5 :D It would be perfect if it develops own tools (like this one) instead of modifying the existing ones. So let them build desktop oriented linux, and let us focus on the server oriented version. regards piotr ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
On Sat, 8/29/15, poitr pogo wrote: Subject: Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide To: "dng" Date: Saturday, August 29, 2015, 10:14 AM > > So let them build desktop oriented linux, and let us focus on the > server oriented version. > G . . . How about a systemd-free Linux that can be the base for server or desktop use . . . golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
Hi, On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 5:00 PM, Michael Bütow wrote: > Article here: > > https://tlhp.cf/lennart-poettering-su/ > > I for one look forward to not having any of this madness one day when I > transition completely to Devuan! > This is rather good news, as this is extension to systemd not to su. As systemd is it's own echosystem of some kind, with all that new session/terminal/process management using cgroups, etc. it is natural that it needs su-like feature, which will handle all this systemd internals properly. IMHO systemd is some kind of an android like layer between kernel and desktop applications, providing it's own api/libraties/sdk. I bet gnome will became a GUI part of systemd at some point. With API allowing building linux based applications using html5 :D It would be perfect if it develops own tools (like this one) instead of modifying the existing ones. So let them build desktop oriented linux, and let us focus on the server oriented version. regards piotr ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
On 29/08/2015 14:43, Rainer Weikusat wrote: 'su' is not a concept, it's a program. Okay, let's clarify. A program is the implementation of an idea. The idea is often unwritten or unspoken, or forgotten, and people will only refer to the implementation; but good design always starts with the idea, the concept, of what the program is supposed to do. When Lennart says "su is a broken concept", he's saying "the concept behind the su program is not clear or well-defined, and it was not a good idea to implement it"; and I agree with that. (Then he naturally branches onto his NIH obsession and decides that UNIX is bad and systemd must reinvent everything, which I obviously disagree with.) As you're saying, the correct design is to separate the tasks that the su program accomplishes, if one doesn't need a full- environment root shell. But if a full-environment root shell is needed, logging in as root works. That's exactly what the "login" _concept_ is. Now, is 1. Build systems suck and git isn't exactly the greatest tool on the planet for working with more than one source tree, so lets add the code we want to write to systemd 2. goto 1 a concept? Of course it is! I'm surprised systemd-versioncontrol isn't a thing yet. XD -- Laurent ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
On Sat, 29 Aug 2015 15:03:00 +0100 Edward Bartolo wrote: > The plague has come, but not in the form of a deadly bacterium, but in > the new trend of, "sacrificing function for fashion". Or the megalomaniac "We are Systemd of Borg, resistance is futile..." Cheers, Ron. -- One should always be in love. That is the reason one should never marry. -- Oscar Wilde -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org -- ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
This is heartbreaking rather than a show. Replace everything that used to work reliably for so many years with what clueless beginners want! The plague has come, but not in the form of a deadly bacterium, but in the new trend of, "sacrificing function for fashion". On 29/08/2015, Rainer Weikusat wrote: > Matteo Panella writes: >> On 28/08/2015 17:32, Laurent Bercot wrote: >>> On 28/08/2015 17:00, Michael Bütow wrote: https://tlhp.cf/lennart-poettering-su/ >>> >>> The thing is, he's not entirely wrong: su *is*, really, a >>> broken concept. >> >> On a desktop system with current constraints (XDG env vars, X11 >> sockets...) I'd agree, but that's hardly su's fault. >> >> On a server, tough, it just does its job nicely (unless you need strict >> audit of root-level actions, in which case sudo with a MAC system should >> be your starting point). > > 'su' is a somewhat generic setuid-0 program: It changes the uid and the > gids associated with itself to the ones for a certain user and then > executes a shell. In addition to that, it contains another "random > environment munger" with features someone happend to consider useful for > the su use cases he envisioned. If this happens to be what enables > someone else to achieve something he wanted to achieve, 'su' can > obviously be used for that. If not, then not. But the reason why su is > only of limited usefulness is not because the hardcoded policy isn't > complicated enough to include > > $random_thing_someone_called_lennart_also_wants > > for every conceivable value of the variable but because it has a > hardcoded policy at all and the solution is not "implement another, > random environment munger more to tastes of ..." but split it apart: > Have a program which changes uids and gids and executes another > program. Another program for the become root via setuid and execute > ... part. And a third program (or any number of such programs) to > perform other modifications of the execution environment. > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
Matteo Panella writes: > On 28/08/2015 17:32, Laurent Bercot wrote: >> On 28/08/2015 17:00, Michael Bütow wrote: >>> https://tlhp.cf/lennart-poettering-su/ >> >> The thing is, he's not entirely wrong: su *is*, really, a >> broken concept. > > On a desktop system with current constraints (XDG env vars, X11 > sockets...) I'd agree, but that's hardly su's fault. > > On a server, tough, it just does its job nicely (unless you need strict > audit of root-level actions, in which case sudo with a MAC system should > be your starting point). 'su' is a somewhat generic setuid-0 program: It changes the uid and the gids associated with itself to the ones for a certain user and then executes a shell. In addition to that, it contains another "random environment munger" with features someone happend to consider useful for the su use cases he envisioned. If this happens to be what enables someone else to achieve something he wanted to achieve, 'su' can obviously be used for that. If not, then not. But the reason why su is only of limited usefulness is not because the hardcoded policy isn't complicated enough to include $random_thing_someone_called_lennart_also_wants for every conceivable value of the variable but because it has a hardcoded policy at all and the solution is not "implement another, random environment munger more to tastes of ..." but split it apart: Have a program which changes uids and gids and executes another program. Another program for the become root via setuid and execute ... part. And a third program (or any number of such programs) to perform other modifications of the execution environment. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
On 28/08/2015 17:32, Laurent Bercot wrote: > On 28/08/2015 17:00, Michael Bütow wrote: >> https://tlhp.cf/lennart-poettering-su/ > > The thing is, he's not entirely wrong: su *is*, really, a > broken concept. On a desktop system with current constraints (XDG env vars, X11 sockets...) I'd agree, but that's hardly su's fault. On a server, tough, it just does its job nicely (unless you need strict audit of root-level actions, in which case sudo with a MAC system should be your starting point). So much noise (and security-critical code) for nothing. -- Matteo Panella signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
Laurent Bercot writes: > On 28/08/2015 17:00, Michael Bütow wrote: >> https://tlhp.cf/lennart-poettering-su/ > > The thing is, he's not entirely wrong: su *is*, really, a > broken concept. 'su' is not a concept, it's a program. This means one can use it to accomplish what it was written to do. And one can't use it to accomplish what it doesn't support. If something su doesn't support has to be done, and there's no other reasonable way to accomplish it, code will need to be written to implement the desired behaviour. Now, is 1. Build systems suck and git isn't exactly the greatest tool on the planet for working with more than one source tree, so lets add the code we want to write to systemd 2. goto 1 a concept? [SCNR] ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
I always thought su was the wrong way to go about things. Give me sudo every time. (there are assorted long discussions about su vs sudo out there on the interweb, let's not repeat them here!) Just be glad we still have a choice! DaveT On 28/08/15 16:32, Laurent Bercot wrote: On 28/08/2015 17:00, Michael Bütow wrote: https://tlhp.cf/lennart-poettering-su/ The thing is, he's not entirely wrong: su *is*, really, a broken concept. What he conveniently forgets, of course, is that having a real root session with a separated environment, which is what the new feature does, could already be achieved... by logging in as root. Duh! So, this is just yet another propaganda stunt. "su sucks. See? UNIX sucks! And now systemd can do so much better than UNIX: it gives you real root sessions that do not leak anything from the user environment." "But, um, can't UNIX already do that ?..." "NO NO NO systemd does it better because " It's been like this since day 1 of systemd, and I'm not expecting it to change any time soon. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
On 28/08/2015 17:00, Michael Bütow wrote: https://tlhp.cf/lennart-poettering-su/ The thing is, he's not entirely wrong: su *is*, really, a broken concept. What he conveniently forgets, of course, is that having a real root session with a separated environment, which is what the new feature does, could already be achieved... by logging in as root. Duh! So, this is just yet another propaganda stunt. "su sucks. See? UNIX sucks! And now systemd can do so much better than UNIX: it gives you real root sessions that do not leak anything from the user environment." "But, um, can't UNIX already do that ?..." "NO NO NO systemd does it better because " It's been like this since day 1 of systemd, and I'm not expecting it to change any time soon. -- Laurent ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 05:00:56PM +0200, Michael Bütow wrote: > Article here: > > https://tlhp.cf/lennart-poettering-su/ > > I for one look forward to not having any of this madness one day when I > transition completely to Devuan! Motivations are legit (see sup, doas). Having a privilege escalation subsystem onto PID 1 is nonetheless still stupid. -- Teodoro Santoni Something is wrong. I don't wanna compile 20 KB of Go code to list files. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide
Article here: https://tlhp.cf/lennart-poettering-su/ I for one look forward to not having any of this madness one day when I transition completely to Devuan! ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng