Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
Steve Litt writes: I hadn't thought much about several people using the same computer for different GUI tasks in the last 12 years. It happens. There are some family-shared tablets with >1 account. Rumour has it it's rare, although I've never spoken to anyone with numbers and without an NDA. Arnt ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
On Sat, 7/23/16, Robert Storey wrote: Subject: Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen To: dng@lists.dyne.org Date: Saturday, July 23, 2016, 10:02 AM golinux said: >> Thanks for reminding me about reisuo/b. Is reisuo/b really enabled on devuan >> by >> default? Seems like I tried it a while back and it didn't work. So I >> checked >> /etc/sysctl.conf and the line needed wasn't there (neither was there any >> other >> uncommented line). So my question is . . . if reisuo/b is enabled by >> default in >> devuan is it located elsewhere and does kernel.sysrq = 1 work for both >> reisuo and >> reisub? Or are they different? (A quick search has me thinking that one >> line works >> for both.) > > Hi golinux, > > Alt-reisub/o seems to be working for me, and I didn't do anything to enable > it. > > If you look in /etc/sysctl.d there is a file README.sysctl which basically > says you can create and name config files in this directory just about > anything. Here are the notes which I've kept for Ubuntu from back in the > pre-systemd days: > > - > > open sysctl.d using 'open as root' > edit 10-magic-sysrq.conf > comment out the ridiculous default, replace it with the code to allow all > sensible 'magic' keys > ("1 - enable all functions of sysrq". You might like to give it extra > thought. I don't.) > CODE: SELECT ALL > #kernel.sysrq = 127 > kernel.sysrq = 1 > > save it, and remember to come out of elevated priviledges. > Thanks, Robert . . . I was grokking your suggestion till I got to the Ubuntu notes. The only file in the sysctl.d on Devuan is the README.sysctl. And grep couldn't find 10-magic-sysrq.conf so I just put the needed line into sysctl.conf. I haven't tested it but reisub/o should be good to go now. Cheers! golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
golinux said: > Thanks for reminding me about reisuo/b. Is reisuo/b really enabled on devuan by > default? Seems like I tried it a while back and it didn't work. So I checked > /etc/sysctl.conf and the line needed wasn't there (neither was there any other > uncommented line). So my question is . . . if reisuo/b is enabled by default in > devuan is it located elsewhere and does kernel.sysrq = 1 work for both reisuo and > reisub? Or are they different? (A quick search has me thinking that one line works > for both.) Hi golinux, Alt-reisub/o seems to be working for me, and I didn't do anything to enable it. If you look in /etc/sysctl.d there is a file README.sysctl which basically says you can create and name config files in this directory just about anything. Here are the notes which I've kept for Ubuntu from back in the pre-systemd days: - open sysctl.d using 'open as root' edit 10-magic-sysrq.conf comment out the ridiculous default, replace it with the code to allow all sensible 'magic' keys ("1 - enable all functions of sysrq". You might like to give it extra thought. I don't.) CODE: SELECT ALL #kernel.sysrq = 127 kernel.sysrq = 1 save it, and remember to come out of elevated priviledges. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
On Sat, 23 Jul 2016 10:45:43 +0200, Didier wrote in message <57932eb7.6080...@in2p3.fr>: > Le 22/07/2016 23:33, Rick Moen a écrit : > > Quoting Arnt Karlsen (a...@iaksess.no): > > > >> ..bytt ut "inn" med "på", rett oversatt skal dette være: > >> "Jeg kan også skrive på mitt tredje språk." ;o) > > I'm learning, though, and I thank you. ;-> > > > > Hope you won't spend as much of the bandwidth with e-learning > Norwegian as others did with e-learning C :-) ..worried about cultural imperialism, freedom language speaker? ;o) -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
Le 22/07/2016 23:33, Rick Moen a écrit : Quoting Arnt Karlsen (a...@iaksess.no): ..bytt ut "inn" med "på", rett oversatt skal dette være: "Jeg kan også skrive på mitt tredje språk." ;o) I'm learning, though, and I thank you. ;-> Hope you won't spend as much of the bandwidth with e-learning Norwegian as others did with e-learning C :-) Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
Quoting Arnt Karlsen (a...@iaksess.no): > ..bytt ut "inn" med "på", rett oversatt skal dette være: > "Jeg kan også skrive på mitt tredje språk." ;o) I'm learning, though, and I thank you. ;-> ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
On Fri, 22 Jul 2016 11:14:03 -0400 Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI wrote: > Another possibility which I use to get ₲, €, ß, and (Spanish) acute accented > vowels on my French keyboard is to add the following to .bashrc: > > xmodmap -e "keycode 66 =" > xmodmap -e "keycode 24 = a A a A aacute adiaeresis acircumflex adiaeresis a A > acircumflex adiaeresis a A" > xmodmap -e "keycode 42 = g G g G U20B2 AE ae" > xmodmap -e "keycode 57 = n N n N U00F1 N notsign N n N notsign N" > xmodmap -e "keycode 31 = i I i I iacute idiaeresis icircumflex idiaeresis i > I icircumflex idiaeresis i I" > xmodmap -e "keycode 32 = o O o O oacute odiaeresis ocircumflex odiaeresis o > O ocircumflex odiaeresis o O" > xmodmap -e "keycode 39 = s S s S U00DF Oslash oslash Oslash s S oslash Oslash > s S oslash Oslash" > > then those letters I need come pressing AltGr and the relevant key. PS The first line above is to kill the Caps Lock key. Cheers, Ron. -- -And how do you know he is the King ? -He is the only one who is not covered in shit. -- Monty Python, the Holy Grail -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org -- ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
On Fri, 22 Jul 2016 17:04:24 +0200 Adam Borowski wrote: > On Fri, Jul 22, 2016 at 07:52:59AM +0200, Didier Kryn wrote: > > Same problem as you: accents aren't available on En keyboards (or by > > tricks I ignore). I use to pick them from various documents with the mouse - > > or use a Fr keyboard. > > Then you want a Compose key. On real keyboards, it's best to bind it to a > totally unused thing like Menu, on laptops, a key combination (I think one > is bound by default, can't check right now as virtualbox is kaput, too lazy > to install a new one in qemu). There's even a bunch of implementations for > Windows, one included in putty. > > Compose key includes, among others, combinations for all the accents/ > umlauts/etc which don't require memorization: you press Compose then the > base letter then the given decoration: > * Compose, a, ',' for ą > * Compose, o, '"' for ö > * Compose, e, "'" for é > * Compose, a, '*' for å (ok, * is a bit unobvious) > * Compose, o, '/' for ø > * Compose, 1, 2 for ½ > and so on. No need to use copy&paste for decorated latin characters. Another possibility which I use to get ₲, €, ß, and (Spanish) acute accented vowels on my French keyboard is to add the following to .bashrc: xmodmap -e "keycode 66 =" xmodmap -e "keycode 24 = a A a A aacute adiaeresis acircumflex adiaeresis a A acircumflex adiaeresis a A" xmodmap -e "keycode 42 = g G g G U20B2 AE ae" xmodmap -e "keycode 57 = n N n N U00F1 N notsign N n N notsign N" xmodmap -e "keycode 31 = i I i I iacute idiaeresis icircumflex idiaeresis i I icircumflex idiaeresis i I" xmodmap -e "keycode 32 = o O o O oacute odiaeresis ocircumflex odiaeresis o O ocircumflex odiaeresis o O" xmodmap -e "keycode 39 = s S s S U00DF Oslash oslash Oslash s S oslash Oslash s S oslash Oslash" then those letters I need come pressing AltGr and the relevant key. Cheers, Ron. -- -And how do you know he is the King ? -He is the only one who is not covered in shit. -- Monty Python, the Holy Grail -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org -- ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
On Fri, Jul 22, 2016 at 07:52:59AM +0200, Didier Kryn wrote: > Same problem as you: accents aren't available on En keyboards (or by > tricks I ignore). I use to pick them from various documents with the mouse - > or use a Fr keyboard. Then you want a Compose key. On real keyboards, it's best to bind it to a totally unused thing like Menu, on laptops, a key combination (I think one is bound by default, can't check right now as virtualbox is kaput, too lazy to install a new one in qemu). There's even a bunch of implementations for Windows, one included in putty. Compose key includes, among others, combinations for all the accents/ umlauts/etc which don't require memorization: you press Compose then the base letter then the given decoration: * Compose, a, ',' for ą * Compose, o, '"' for ö * Compose, e, "'" for é * Compose, a, '*' for å (ok, * is a bit unobvious) * Compose, o, '/' for ø * Compose, 1, 2 for ½ and so on. No need to use copy&paste for decorated latin characters. -- An imaginary friend squared is a real enemy. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
On Thu, 7/21/16, Robert Storey wrote: Subject: Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen To: dng@lists.dyne.org Date: Thursday, July 21, 2016, 6:51 AM > > For "halt," there are always magic keys, as long as that's not disabled by > the sysadmin... > > Alt-SysRq reisuo > > I definitely like the idea that this is enabled by default in Devuan. I > actually use it quite a lot. > > cheers, > Robert > Thanks for reminding me about reisuo/b. Is reisuo/b really enabled on devuan by default? Seems like I tried it a while back and it didn't work. So I checked /etc/sysctl.conf and the line needed wasn't there (neither was there any other uncommented line). So my question is . . . if reisuo/b is enabled by default in devuan is it located elsewhere and does kernel.sysrq = 1 work for both reisuo and reisub? Or are they different? (A quick search has me thinking that one line works for both.) golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
On Thu, 21 Jul 2016 22:24:29 -0700, Rick wrote in message <20160722052429.gn30...@linuxmafia.com>: > Quoting Didier Kryn (k...@in2p3.fr): > > > With a French keyboard, I can write in en-UK or en-US, and it is > > also much more convenient when writing in fr-FR. > > Vraiment? C'est intéressant. ('Truly? This is interesting.') > I must confess ignorance. FWIW, usually in my experience, the main > disadvantage of US keyboards is lack of a Euro-symbol key, but there > are easy workarounds. > > Jeg kan også skrive inn mitt tredje språk. (I can also write my third > language.) ..bytt ut "inn" med "på", rett oversatt skal dette være: "Jeg kan også skrive på mitt tredje språk." ;o) > > I just prefer a US keyboard for writing programs because the > > layout has been hardcoded in my fingers by almost 40 years of > > programming and I find it definitely more convenient for that task. > > Would it help if I apologise pour l'impérialisme américain? ;-> > > (Je crains que nous ne parlons pas de Devuan. Nous devrions parler > des questions techniques, mais il est agréable à utiliser la belle > langue.) > -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
Le 22/07/2016 08:48, Simon Walter a écrit : I hope I am not stating the obvious. Did you press the Fn key? Notebook computers have an Fn key to access the smaller label. For example, Apples have set at the Fn keys to be volume, screen brightness, etc. You need to press Fn + F10 to get F10, since F10 is written in the smaller font. Most sensible manufactures haven't done that. However, the some keys are doubled up and usually if you need to press Fn, it will be in the same font/color as the Fn key. I suspect you wanted to press Fn + Del + whatever other keys you need. (Sorry wasn't following the conversation in detail). Tried it but it doesn't work either. Hope I don't need to hold and hit other keys in the same time because it would require three hands. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
Le 22/07/2016 09:53, KatolaZ a écrit : P.S.: It's surprising how this thread has eventually become a pyttipanna [1] :D You are right. Let's stop it. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
Quoting Didier Kryn (k...@in2p3.fr): > Why such a complicated solution? Since you ask: Simplicity. I can ssh from anywhere, and my computing is comfortably centred on my server, regardless of where I happen to be in the wide world, and regardless of what local console host I happen to be sitting in front of, that has an ssh client. Works for Me.{tm} Il est, également, utile pour un homme qui voyage à travers le monde. En outre, il répond à mes exigences de sécurité. Aussi, j'aime faire fonctionner un ordinateur Linux sans console: linuxmafia.com est ma présence sur Internet, peu importe où je suis, moi-même. -- Cheers,"Why struggle to open a door between us, Rick Moen when the whole wall is an illusion?" r...@linuxmafia.com -- Rumi McQ! (4x80) ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
On Fri, Jul 22, 2016 at 08:38:30AM +0200, Didier Kryn wrote: > Le 22/07/2016 08:07, Rick Moen a écrit : > > My MUA (mail user agent = e-mail > >client) is running on my SMTP server, uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com, > >mutt under GNU screen on Linux -- but I'm almost never there. > >Instead, I'm pretty much anywhere else in the world, typing on some > >machine that is ssh'ed to remote shell on my server. So, I'm dependent > >on correct terminal support in_two_ places. > Why such a complicated solution? I'm using Icedove with Imap accounts > and encrypted connections to smtp servers; roaming isn't an issue. OTOH, I'm > happy not everybody uses the same means :-) > Unfortunately, this is not a good solution for mutt users travelling a lot, since mutt still has the same old problem with hanging IMAP connections. This has not stopped me from using mutt, but has decimated the use of IMAP on my side, unfortunately. HND KatolaZ P.S.: It's surprising how this thread has eventually become a pyttipanna [1] :D [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyttipanna -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - GLUGCT -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
On 07/22/2016 01:56 PM, Didier Kryn wrote: Le 21/07/2016 14:50, Arnt Gulbrandsen a écrit : Didier Kryn writes: I don't reply to your questions since Florian did :-) but I, myself, have two questions: - Still don't know what key you are talking of; never seen that on a keyboard. - What do you mean by "reisuo" ? You learn something new every day. Today it's sysrq and linux: https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/sysrq.txt Tried it yesterday evening on my HP-Latitude laptop running Debian-Wheezy. Tried both with and . None did the trick. With reisuo I only succeeded to locked tty1 :-( BTW my laptop has an English keyboard because it is impossible in Europe to buy one with a US keyboard. I hope I am not stating the obvious. Did you press the Fn key? Notebook computers have an Fn key to access the smaller label. For example, Apples have set at the Fn keys to be volume, screen brightness, etc. You need to press Fn + F10 to get F10, since F10 is written in the smaller font. Most sensible manufactures haven't done that. However, the some keys are doubled up and usually if you need to press Fn, it will be in the same font/color as the Fn key. I suspect you wanted to press Fn + Del + whatever other keys you need. (Sorry wasn't following the conversation in detail). Hope that helps, Simon ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
Le 22/07/2016 08:07, Rick Moen a écrit : My MUA (mail user agent = e-mail client) is running on my SMTP server, uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com, mutt under GNU screen on Linux -- but I'm almost never there. Instead, I'm pretty much anywhere else in the world, typing on some machine that is ssh'ed to remote shell on my server. So, I'm dependent on correct terminal support in_two_ places. Why such a complicated solution? I'm using Icedove with Imap accounts and encrypted connections to smtp servers; roaming isn't an issue. OTOH, I'm happy not everybody uses the same means :-) Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
Quoting Didier Kryn (k...@in2p3.fr): > Same problem as you: accents aren't available on En keyboards > (or by tricks I ignore). I use to pick them from various documents > with the mouse - or use a Fr keyboard. I actually have a bigger problem. My MUA (mail user agent = e-mail client) is running on my SMTP server, uncle-enzo.linuxmafia.com, mutt under GNU screen on Linux -- but I'm almost never there. Instead, I'm pretty much anywhere else in the world, typing on some machine that is ssh'ed to remote shell on my server. So, I'm dependent on correct terminal support in _two_ places. Merci à Dieu pour UTF-8. ;-> (Mon passeport américain peut être annulé pour le dire.) -- Cheers, « On donne des conseils, mais on ne Rick Moendonne point la sagesse d'en profiter. » r...@linuxmafia.com -- La Rochefoucauld McQ! (4x80) ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
Le 22/07/2016 07:24, Rick Moen a écrit : Quoting Didier Kryn (k...@in2p3.fr): >With a French keyboard, I can write in en-UK or en-US, and it is >also much more convenient when writing in fr-FR. Vraiment? C'est intéressant. ('Truly? This is interesting.') I must confess ignorance. FWIW, usually in my experience, the main disadvantage of US keyboards is lack of a Euro-symbol key, but there are easy workarounds. Jeg kan også skrive inn mitt tredje språk. (I can also write my third language.) Same problem as you: accents aren't available on En keyboards (or by tricks I ignore). I use to pick them from various documents with the mouse - or use a Fr keyboard. Keyboards' layouts have been originally dictated by typewtiters' mechanics: to prevent the collisions of the hammers, letters which can appear close together in words are distant on the keyboard. In En/US keyboards, digits, / and # are lower case, which is objectively more convenient to write programs. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
Le 22/07/2016 07:18, Adam Borowski a écrit : On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 10:01:34PM -0700, Rick Moen wrote: Quoting Didier Kryn (k...@in2p3.fr): BTW my laptop has an English keyboard because it is impossible in Europe to buy one with a US keyboard. You're not missing a _thing_! ;-> (I say this as a native speaker of English, who also speaks American through translation.) https://i.imgur.com/HIP7b6T.jpg I imagine the software is produced by a group of English and continental Chinese people :-) ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
Quoting Didier Kryn (k...@in2p3.fr): > With a French keyboard, I can write in en-UK or en-US, and it is > also much more convenient when writing in fr-FR. Vraiment? C'est intéressant. ('Truly? This is interesting.') I must confess ignorance. FWIW, usually in my experience, the main disadvantage of US keyboards is lack of a Euro-symbol key, but there are easy workarounds. Jeg kan også skrive inn mitt tredje språk. (I can also write my third language.) > I just prefer a US keyboard for writing programs because the > layout has been hardcoded in my fingers by almost 40 years of > programming and I find it definitely more convenient for that task. Would it help if I apologise pour l'impérialisme américain? ;-> (Je crains que nous ne parlons pas de Devuan. Nous devrions parler des questions techniques, mais il est agréable à utiliser la belle langue.) -- Cheers, « On donne des conseils, mais on ne Rick Moendonne point la sagesse d'en profiter. » r...@linuxmafia.com -- La Rochefoucauld McQ! (4x80) ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 10:01:34PM -0700, Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting Didier Kryn (k...@in2p3.fr): > > > BTW my laptop has an English keyboard because it is impossible in > > Europe to buy one with a US keyboard. > > You're not missing a _thing_! ;-> (I say this as a native speaker of > English, who also speaks American through translation.) https://i.imgur.com/HIP7b6T.jpg -- An imaginary friend squared is a real enemy. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
Le 22/07/2016 07:01, Rick Moen a écrit : Quoting Didier Kryn (k...@in2p3.fr): BTW my laptop has an English keyboard because it is impossible in Europe to buy one with a US keyboard. You're not missing a _thing_! ;-> (I say this as a native speaker of English, who also speaks American through translation.) With a French keyboard, I can write in en-UK or en-US, and it is also much more convenient when writing in fr-FR. I just prefer a US keyboard for writing programs because the layout has been hardcoded in my fingers by almost 40 years of programming and I find it definitely more convenient for that task. In Europe you can buy your HP with only an European or Saoudian (dunno why) keyboard. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
Quoting Didier Kryn (k...@in2p3.fr): > BTW my laptop has an English keyboard because it is impossible in > Europe to buy one with a US keyboard. You're not missing a _thing_! ;-> (I say this as a native speaker of English, who also speaks American through translation.) -- Cheers, "On American pronunciation: You say erbs and we Rick Moensay herbs. Because, you know, there's an H in it." r...@linuxmafia.com -- Eddie Izzard McQ! (4x80) ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
Le 21/07/2016 14:50, Arnt Gulbrandsen a écrit : Didier Kryn writes: I don't reply to your questions since Florian did :-) but I, myself, have two questions: - Still don't know what key you are talking of; never seen that on a keyboard. - What do you mean by "reisuo" ? You learn something new every day. Today it's sysrq and linux: https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/sysrq.txt Tried it yesterday evening on my HP-Latitude laptop running Debian-Wheezy. Tried both with and . None did the trick. With reisuo I only succeeded to locked tty1 :-( BTW my laptop has an English keyboard because it is impossible in Europe to buy one with a US keyboard. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
Quoting Steve Litt (sl...@troubleshooters.com): > Rick Moen wrote: > > > That's what it's like to be among the lucky 10,000! > > https://xkcd.com/1053/ > > For the past 25 years, I shake my head in amazement at the profound > stupidity of myself at an age five years earlier. You might have been ignorant (nobody's born knowledgeable), but I personally doubt the stupidity. Taxonomy: o ignorance: fixable, no shame in it o stupidity: inherent, no shame in it o acting stupid: fixable, but only by overcoming the urge to double down and proclaim 'On _me_, holes shot in one's foot look good.' ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
On Thu, 21 Jul 2016 10:18:14 -0700 Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting Arnt Gulbrandsen (a...@gulbrandsen.priv.no): > > > You learn something new every day. Today it's sysrq and linux: > > https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/sysrq.txt > > That's what it's like to be among the lucky 10,000! > https://xkcd.com/1053/ For the past 25 years, I shake my head in amazement at the profound stupidity of myself at an age five years earlier. SteveT Steve Litt July 2016 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
Quoting Arnt Gulbrandsen (a...@gulbrandsen.priv.no): > You learn something new every day. Today it's sysrq and linux: > https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/sysrq.txt That's what it's like to be among the lucky 10,000! https://xkcd.com/1053/ -- Cheers, Luftputebåten min er full av ål. Rick Moen r...@linuxmafia.com McQ! (4x80) ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 09:09:28AM +0200, Didier Kryn wrote: > I've now replaced Slim by Lightdm. Dunno what key "sysrq" is. sysrq is sometimes labelled PrtSc. In the old DOS days, it would print the screen. No doubt this might require documentation, too. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
Le 21/07/2016 14:58, Arnt Gulbrandsen a écrit : I wrote: You learn something new every day. Today it's sysrq and linux: https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/sysrq.txt The poor developers among you may take special note of alt-sysrq-f, which kills a memory-eating process quite reliably. The good developers among you never have bugs that cause malloc bombs, of course, and can ignore this. I know one who would use a C++ vector when he barely needs a static array, because, you know, it is so more modern! But he's developping on a Mc-Intosh :-) Dunno if the sys-rq trick works on Mac. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
Didier Kryn writes: Thanks to you all! I eventually discovered that my key had also a tiny label saying sys-rq ! Will try it tonight... You can always get a daskeyboard or happy hacker and escape the tyranny of built-in documentation. This is mine: http://www.getdigital.de/images/actionshots/t4/dasKeyboardUltimateEU.jpg Arnt ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
On Thu, Jul 21, 2016 at 01:50:41PM +0100, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote: > Didier Kryn writes: > >- Still don't know what key you are talking of; never seen > >that on a keyboard. It might be either a key on its own or printed on the side of PrtScr. > >- What do you mean by "reisuo" ? > > You learn something new every day. Today it's sysrq and linux: > https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/sysrq.txt You almost always want to end this with 'b' (reboot) rather than 'o' (off). The 'r' is pointless here (as you're not going to use the system anymore), 'e' and 'i' are unlikely to help. For stuck X/Weyland/SVGAlib/etc you want 'r'+'k' rather than nuking the system. -- An imaginary friend squared is a real enemy. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
Le 21/07/2016 14:50, Arnt Gulbrandsen a écrit : Didier Kryn writes: I don't reply to your questions since Florian did :-) but I, myself, have two questions: - Still don't know what key you are talking of; never seen that on a keyboard. - What do you mean by "reisuo" ? You learn something new every day. Today it's sysrq and linux: This is one of the goodies of dng :-) https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/sysrq.txt Thanks to you all! I eventually discovered that my key had also a tiny label saying sys-rq ! Will try it tonight... Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
I wrote: You learn something new every day. Today it's sysrq and linux: https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/sysrq.txt The poor developers among you may take special note of alt-sysrq-f, which kills a memory-eating process quite reliably. The good developers among you never have bugs that cause malloc bombs, of course, and can ignore this. Arnt ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
Didier Kryn writes: I don't reply to your questions since Florian did :-) but I, myself, have two questions: - Still don't know what key you are talking of; never seen that on a keyboard. - What do you mean by "reisuo" ? You learn something new every day. Today it's sysrq and linux: https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/sysrq.txt Arnt ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
Le 21/07/2016 13:51, Robert Storey a écrit : Not that I want to do so, but can ctrl-alt-f1+ctrl-alt-del be disabled by the sysadmin? For "halt," there are always magic keys, as long as that's not disabled by the sysadmin... Alt-SysRq reisuo I don't reply to your questions since Florian did :-) but I, myself, have two questions: - Still don't know what key you are talking of; never seen that on a keyboard. - What do you mean by "reisuo" ? Thanks. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
On Thu, 21 Jul 2016 19:51:04 +0800 Robert Storey wrote: > Not that I want to do so, but can ctrl-alt-f1+ctrl-alt-del be > disabled by the sysadmin? Yes, you can disable both, independently: The command executed by ctrl+alt+del is defined in /etc/inittab. The switching of virtual consoles with ctrl+alt+(f1-fN) can be disabled by adding the following lines to your /etc/X11/xorg.conf or to an arbitrary file in /usr/share/X11/xorg.conf.d/: Section "ServerFlags" Option "DontVTSwitch" "true" EndSection libre Grüße, Florian ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
Didier Kryn said: > In any case, any person who has the possibility to push the power > button or cut the power cord should be given the opportunity to click > the halt button instead. ctrl-alt-f1+ctrl-alt-del can be used to > reboot, but there's nothing to halt. I'd actually forgotten about ctrl-alt-f1+ctrl-alt-del ...must be getting old. Not that I want to do so, but can ctrl-alt-f1+ctrl-alt-del be disabled by the sysadmin? For "halt," there are always magic keys, as long as that's not disabled by the sysadmin... Alt-SysRq reisuo I definitely like the idea that this is enabled by default in Devuan. I actually use it quite a lot. cheers, Robert ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
Quoting Didier Kryn (k...@in2p3.fr): > I don't know anybody able to stop a server because of own > unawareness. They all would do it only on request by the admin. > Hypothetic malevolent people just haven't the key of the room. That works! ;-> Believe it or not, though, it's not unknown to have background processes running on a host -- a host not in a locked server room -- that you'd rather not be killed by some passing user, and still permit others to also login at the local console. > Slim's solution against unawareness is to require root password. > Well, are you going to give the root password to mindless people? Understand, please, that I've never happened to use slim. When I install an x window manager, I almost always use xdm. Certainly, from the description, that design seems a very appropriately cautious one. -- Cheers, Luftputebåten min er full av ål. Rick Moen r...@linuxmafia.com McQ! (4x80) ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
Le 21/07/2016 06:48, Rick Moen a écrit : The purpose of making such software shutdown not trivially easy wasn't to prevent shutdown. It is to create undeniable awareness. Mindfulness. The standard solution to give users_deliberately_ that software access is to add them to a group with that right. I don't know anybody able to stop a server because of own unawareness. They all would do it only on request by the admin. Hypothetic malevolent people just haven't the key of the room. Slim's solution against unawareness is to require root password. Well, are you going to give the root password to mindless people? Better stick a poster with a warning. But the poster must not be too frightening, otherwise some people might refrain to stop the server when it is necessary or even urgent. Can you describe a use case? Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
Le 21/07/2016 04:15, Adam Borowski a écrit : On Wed, Jul 20, 2016 at 06:27:25PM -0700, Rick Moen wrote: Quoting Didier Kryn (k...@in2p3.fr): In any case, any person who has the possibility to push the power button or cut the power cord should be given the opportunity to click the halt button instead. ctrl-alt-f1+ctrl-alt-del can be used to reboot, but there's nothing to halt. Halt is accomplished by first doing ctrl-alt-f1, ctrl-alt-del, then turning the system unit off before significantly into startup (assuming physical access to the system unit in addition to a physical console). Or, as you say, through a hardware button on the system unit, or yanking the mains (AC) cord. Which means the defaults for display managers are bogus. In the default configuration, anyone with physical access can ctrl-alt-del or alt-sysrq. This can be disabled, so can be a brief push of the power button (ACPI shutdown), but I have yet to see a BIOS that allows disabling long push of the power button, or, for that matter, yanking the power cord (or the battery of a mobile device). Long-push always worked for me. And short-push worked for me on Slim - I've now replaced Slim by Lightdm. Dunno what key "sysrq" is. Thus, unless someone took extraordinary steps to provide physical security, anyone able to login locally can turn the machine off, period. An orderly shutdown is better than an unclean one, thus any display manager that forbids local users to shutdown is buggy. I think anyone could agree on this. And this means "no authentication required." Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
Quoting Adam Borowski (kilob...@angband.pl): > An orderly shutdown is better than an unclean one, thus any display > manager that forbids local users to shutdown is buggy. Let me tell you a metaphor, to sneak up on why it's not that simple. I have a sign at the entrance to my garden. For context, for forty years from 1966 to 2006, my family home was a rental property, after my father's employer, Pan American World Airways, moved us to Hong Kong. Finally, I got back, and moved back in. During those forty years of renter neglect, numerous people had gotten used to walking, or even walking with their dogs, from the street through the wilder part of my large front yard. Most of the sidewalk border is blocked by 20 year old oleander bushes, about three meters tall. There was one gap in the oleanders about a meter wide at one end, another about 30cm wide at the other. Even after I reclaimed the area behind the oleanders from wildness and planted a vegetable garden in raised beds, people kept barging through, often with their dogs. If I engaged their attention and politely asked them to leave, they'd almost always say the same thing: 'I thought this was a park.' They didn't really think it was a park. For 40 years, they assumed it was a partially derelict property that they could trespass on without objection -- but when you corner people and they're totally in the wrong, they blurt out the first justification that comes to mind. I said, this is a social problem: Time for a technical solution (ref: http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/lexicon.html#edwards). I put a two-meter-tall steel-wire-frame arch in the large gap, like an upside-down U, turning it into a formal entrance, and planted climbing roses to ascend up each side. And just above eye-level in the arch, facing the street, a sign: INVITED GUESTS WELCOME. 1105 Altschul Gardens is private prperty. It was cordial, and it was clear. Suddenly the gap wasn't just a gap, but an entrance, ostentatiously looked after, curated. The arch and sign jointly conveyed: No more 'oh, sorry' excuses. You assume this is derelict at your peril. We had no more problems except one teenager who said 'Oh, I'm not invited?' with a stupid smirk. I just looked bored and escorted him off. The linneus bottomus: The purpose of the sign wasn't to prevent trespassing. It was to create undeniable awareness. Mindfulness. The purpose of a display manager not making it a trivially easy operation for any local user to initiate software shutdown isn't to prevent shutdown. It's to discourage _mindless_ shutdown, by console users perhaps unaccustomed to Unix and oblivious to the cron task or long-running program they're going to kill by thinking like a pee-cee weenie who assumes he/she is the centre of the friggin' world and nobody else matters. It means no more 'oh, sorry' excuses. You assume this system's run state is unimportant at your peril. The linneus bottomus: The purpose of making such software shutdown not trivially easy wasn't to prevent shutdown. It is to create undeniable awareness. Mindfulness. The standard solution to give users _deliberately_ that software access is to add them to a group with that right. If the user wants to ignore social cuing and shutdown the machine anyway by hardware measures, that's indeed always possible at the local machine and social cuing won't stop it. If neighbours want to ignore social cuing and stomp through my vegetable garden, that's indeed always possible from the sidewalk and social cuing won't stop it. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
On Wed, Jul 20, 2016 at 06:27:25PM -0700, Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting Didier Kryn (k...@in2p3.fr): > > In any case, any person who has the possibility to push the > > power button or cut the power cord should be given the opportunity > > to click the halt button instead. ctrl-alt-f1+ctrl-alt-del can be > > used to reboot, but there's nothing to halt. > > Halt is accomplished by first doing ctrl-alt-f1, ctrl-alt-del, then > turning the system unit off before significantly into startup (assuming > physical access to the system unit in addition to a physical console). > > Or, as you say, through a hardware button on the system unit, or yanking > the mains (AC) cord. Which means the defaults for display managers are bogus. In the default configuration, anyone with physical access can ctrl-alt-del or alt-sysrq. This can be disabled, so can be a brief push of the power button (ACPI shutdown), but I have yet to see a BIOS that allows disabling long push of the power button, or, for that matter, yanking the power cord (or the battery of a mobile device). Thus, unless someone took extraordinary steps to provide physical security, anyone able to login locally can turn the machine off, period. An orderly shutdown is better than an unclean one, thus any display manager that forbids local users to shutdown is buggy. -- An imaginary friend squared is a real enemy. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
Quoting Arnt Gulbrandsen (a...@gulbrandsen.priv.no): > Rick Moen writes: > >Funny that you should mention that: You might actually have seen that > >tale as related by _me_ on Risks Digest. > > The substance is similar but the wording unfamiliar. Could it > possibly be that such a thing has happened twice? Surely not. Probably the same airline incident, described twice. > (BTW, I had to explain a two-routers-in-one-19" thing in my hand > luggage very thoroughly once. The odd appearance and solid steel > construction made them jittery. But my double-edged razor blades > went by without comment.) Heh. You can imagine the problems winners of the Hugo Award had flying home with a metal trophy shaped like a metre-tall rocket. http://www.thehugoawards.org/content/hugos-large/1993.jpg These days, the awarding convention just offers to ship them home, for winners. > Edge case is the right term, and the proverb goes "optimize for the > common case". I believe another proverb goes 'Don't blow security as a default.' ;-> But anyway, it's not like I get a vote. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
Quoting Didier Kryn (k...@in2p3.fr): > In any case, any person who has the possibility to push the > power button or cut the power cord should be given the opportunity > to click the halt button instead. ctrl-alt-f1+ctrl-alt-del can be > used to reboot, but there's nothing to halt. Halt is accomplished by first doing ctrl-alt-f1, ctrl-alt-del, then turning the system unit off before significantly into startup (assuming physical access to the system unit in addition to a physical console). Or, as you say, through a hardware button on the system unit, or yanking the mains (AC) cord. (Technically, you spoke of someone 'who has access to the shutdown button of the display manager', which in edge cases _could_ be a remote user -- but generally is not.) ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
Le 20/07/2016 15:42, Simon Hobson a écrit : What I struggle to understand is why "multiseat" as it's being discussed here (as an aside to the "can I shutdown from the login screen" discussion) should be considered so "hard". It's really (or shouldn't be) any different to (say) serial terminals - instantiate a "login process" for each instance of the hardware, "getty" on a serial line, choice of display manager (or whatever) for each KVM set. Or have I missed something obvious ? I think it was a mistake to introduce the concept of multiseat in this discussion. What matters is who has access to the shutdown button of the DM. Wether the DM exposes a button or traps a special username makes no difference. Note that the priviledge to shutdown a computer is not so big, compared to the priviledges one gets with the root password. On many servers, I give the shutdown priviledge to several users who ignore the root password - with sudo. In any case, any person who has the possibility to push the power button or cut the power cord should be given the opportunity to click the halt button instead. ctrl-alt-f1+ctrl-alt-del can be used to reboot, but there's nothing to halt. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
Le 20/07/2016 15:42, Simon Hobson a écrit : it is perfectly possible to run a remote KVM which*CAN* do that. Just extend the KVM cables, and if they won't go far enough of you can't run the cables, convert to something intermediate (eg KVM over IP) very much like connecting a serial terminal via a modem. I overlooked that. Actually one can run remote KVMs over IP. In principle, the connection is secured, and the real purpose of these remote KVMs is to allow the admin to take control of the computer when all other means fail, which means exactly to reboot and/or debug. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
Didier Kryn wrote: >I don't understand all your explanations, sorry :-) . I understood the > concept of "seat" as the combo you describe (graphics-keyboard-mouse). > > If the concept of "seat" includes serial terminals, I see no reason to not > include remote logins: until the middle of the 80's, serial terminals could > be far remote, by the means of modems, and, conceptually, this isn't > different of a telnet connection. If multi-seat involves all that, then the > concept is not relevant in this discussion. Which is relevant is wether the > user can push the shutdown button of the DM or "send" ctrl-alt-del, and > neither serial terminals, nor remote sessions can do that - except, possibly > remote graphic sessions through XDMCP. Yes, it is a bit of a side track, but the discussion is moving along with (as it appear to me) an implicit assumption that "multi seat" == "multiple graphics cards, keyboards, mice (KVM - Keyboard, Video, Mouse)". Taking a step back, this combination is just a subset of multi-seat. Whether graphics or serial terminal (which did in fact often do graphics BTW) the principle is the same : A user "does something", that something gets signalled to the computer via it's cable, the computer "does something" with that input, and then sends some updated display information up the cable to the display device. The only real difference is that with a serial terminal the interface between the "user interface" and "the system" is via serial, with a KVM the interface is over the system's internal bus.* To an extent, telnet and SSH are also a subset of this, though the mechanism is somewhat different. A correction though. While a serial terminal typically cannot reset the system (other than via commands), it is perfectly possible to run a remote KVM which *CAN* do that. Just extend the KVM cables, and if they won't go far enough of you can't run the cables, convert to something intermediate (eg KVM over IP) very much like connecting a serial terminal via a modem. What I struggle to understand is why "multiseat" as it's being discussed here (as an aside to the "can I shutdown from the login screen" discussion) should be considered so "hard". It's really (or shouldn't be) any different to (say) serial terminals - instantiate a "login process" for each instance of the hardware, "getty" on a serial line, choice of display manager (or whatever) for each KVM set. Or have I missed something obvious ? * As an aside, I recall reading many years ago that PCIe would allow the "PC" to be split up - with high speed serial links connecting the processing unit and the graphics card. It eventually arrived with Intel/Apple's Thunderbolt. Get a Thunderbolt equipped system, plug multiple Thunderbolt displays into it, plug a keyboard and mouse into each screen. Hmm, looks very very much like a modern day serial terminal ! ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
Rick Moen writes: Funny that you should mention that: You might actually have seen that tale as related by _me_ on Risks Digest. The substance is similar but the wording unfamiliar. Could it possibly be that such a thing has happened twice? Surely not. (BTW, I had to explain a two-routers-in-one-19" thing in my hand luggage very thoroughly once. The odd appearance and solid steel construction made them jittery. But my double-edged razor blades went by without comment.) I believe the conventional solution is to locate such hardware behind locked doors and make sure few people have access to the power cables. Yes, mostly. It would be rare to permit physical console access (other than by highly trusted people) on a shared ISP machine or anything like that. In edge cases -- which really isn't likely -- one _might_ imagine a server that does significant work for remote users and simultaneously regular users were permitted use of a local console. Edge case is the right term, and the proverb goes "optimize for the common case". It's nice to have options and an orthogonal design, but please let those who want to have console GUI on a multiuser server spend the time to test that case and fix whatever needs fixing. Arnt ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
Quoting Arnt Gulbrandsen (a...@gulbrandsen.priv.no): > Reminds me of the story about the airline captain who took the mike > to apologise to the passengers for a delay: "I was held up in the > security control, they were worried that I might seize control of > the airplane." Funny that you should mention that: You might actually have seen that tale as related by _me_ on Risks Digest. http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/25.01.html#subj8 > Imagine a host with hundreds of simultaneous users, such as (say) a > >shared ISP machine. You would absolutely not want just anyone to be > >able to shutdown or reboot the machine at will. Tberefore, the > >conventional solution to this problem is to require membership in a > >bespoke group for shutdown/reboot rights. > I believe the conventional solution is to locate such hardware > behind locked doors and make sure few people have access to the > power cables. Yes, mostly. It would be rare to permit physical console access (other than by highly trusted people) on a shared ISP machine or anything like that. In edge cases -- which really isn't likely -- one _might_ imagine a server that does significant work for remote users and simultaneously regular users were permitted use of a local console. As I mentioned about the San Francisco cybercafe's NFS/NIS master, _that_ host was physically in a locked room upstairs but the keyboard and monitor were deliberately accessible to the public downstairs -- as an example. Obviously rare, though. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
Rick Moen writes: Remember, Unix is a multiuser operating system, and also one supporting both local and remote users, who would be annoyed by someone deciding to cut them off. Reminds me of the story about the airline captain who took the mike to apologise to the passengers for a delay: "I was held up in the security control, they were worried that I might seize control of the airplane." Imagine a host with hundreds of simultaneous users, such as (say) a shared ISP machine. You would absolutely not want just anyone to be able to shutdown or reboot the machine at will. Tberefore, the conventional solution to this problem is to require membership in a bespoke group for shutdown/reboot rights. I believe the conventional solution is to locate such hardware behind locked doors and make sure few people have access to the power cables. Arnt ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
Steve Litt writes: I hadn't thought much about several people using the same computer for different GUI tasks in the last 12 years. It happens. There are some family-shared tablets with >1 account. Rumour has it it's rare, although I've never spoken to anyone with numbers and without an NDA. Arnt ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
Le 19/07/2016 16:03, Simon Hobson a écrit : Didier Kryn wrote: I guess this is exactly what "multi-seat" means: severall keyboards and severall grapical cards connected to the same host. It certainly does not include serial terminals. Serial terminal fall in the category "multi-user", like ssh connections, not "multi-seat". I disagree there. In the context of "graphical consoles" being discussed I see where you are coming from, but serial terminals are just a sub class of multi-seat - while the "multiple graphics card-keyboard-mouse" setup is another sub-set. The key difference is that there is a long historyof multi-seat via serial (and more recently, network) terminals and (forexample) the serial etc systems inherently support multi-seat. The way the problem is solved for serial terminals is simple - abstractthe hardware into a stable device API, and run multiple instances of the"login" program (one per seat). "In theory" the same should be possible with the graphics-keybourd-mouse combo - EXCEPT that (AIUI) the software components involved were mostly written a) without that standard abstraction and b) without regard to the possibility of multiple instantiations. Just think how easy it musty have seemed at one point to just "intertwine" the software and hardware such that a single instance of "something" acted as the sole gatekeeper between the serial line and the machine - for a single seat. There'd then be discussions on how to work around that to enable multi-seat. As it happens, the serial line one was such a "no brainer" given how many different things used the serial lines - the solution we have must have seemed so obvious from the very beginning. I don't understand all your explanations, sorry :-) . I understood the concept of "seat" as the combo you describe (graphics-keyboard-mouse). If the concept of "seat" includes serial terminals, I see no reason to not include remote logins: until the middle of the 80's, serial terminals could be far remote, by the means of modems, and, conceptually, this isn't different of a telnet connection. If multi-seat involves all that, then the concept is not relevant in this discussion. Which is relevant is wether the user can push the shutdown button of the DM or "send" ctrl-alt-del, and neither serial terminals, nor remote sessions can do that - except, possibly remote graphic sessions through XDMCP. To come back to Slim, why should it behave differently of wtfdm and ask a password to halt/reboot? It makes no fundamental difference wether this is obtained by clicking a button or by entering a special text in the login window. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
Le 19/07/2016 18:33, Rick Moen a écrit : You speak as if the consequences of host shutdown (or reboot) were trivial, but that is not the case: A local user who has shutdown the host has terminated all processes (not just his/her own), and made the entire machine unavailable to everyone. Seen that way, I would hope you'd understand that by default shutdown (and to a lesser extent reboot) should be a privileged operation. Yes. The person who has the key of the room where the computer sits. Simple policy tested along ages :-) Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
Quoting Steve Litt (sl...@troubleshooters.com): > I have two reasons someone (not me, but somebody) would prefer to start > up in a GUI: > > 1) Some members of my family consider it an immense challenge to have >to remember to input their username and password at the console, >recognize that they're logged in (as opposed to have fatfingered >their password and need to try again), and then type "startx". > > 2) Some people can't be trusted to type the command like this: > >startx;exit > >so that the a badguy who terminates the GUI doesn't have access to >their command prompt (although they could just access xterm within X >anyway). Which as the legit user is _very_ easy to prevent: E.g., if disinclined to type the aforementioned, create shell script /usr/local/bin/go that does that, and use it instead after login (if you want to start X11). > Personally, I always boot to CLI and startx to GUI. 'startx' (or equivalently 'xinit ' or countless other variations) really has no significant disadvantage or advantage over a display manager, per se, except tying up a VT while X11 is running - and I suppose you might be able to fix even that by backgrounding it. It's mostly just a matter of local preference. And IMO a well-customised display manager (certainly including xdm) looks neat. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
On Wed, 20 Jul 2016 00:40:13 +0200 aitor_czr wrote: > On 07/19/2016 07:38 PM, Robert Storey wrote: > > About SLIM as a display manager - I'm fine with it, even if it's > > not really maintained. The important thing is that it's fast, > > stable, not riddled with security holes (including systemd). I'm > > open though to changing to something better, if there is something > > better. > > > > cheers, > > Robert > > I find it good enough :) > >Aitor. I've got no problem with slim. Especially if we can revisit for Ascii. SteveT Steve Litt July 2016 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
On Tue, 19 Jul 2016 09:23:47 -1000 Joel Roth wrote: > emnin...@riseup.net wrote: > > And as i said before, lxdm is nearly equally leightweight as slim > > and as far as i see not really systemd infected - yet (?). > > Why do you like using a display manager rather than login > and startx? I have two reasons someone (not me, but somebody) would prefer to start up in a GUI: 1) Some members of my family consider it an immense challenge to have to remember to input their username and password at the console, recognize that they're logged in (as opposed to have fatfingered their password and need to try again), and then type "startx". 2) Some people can't be trusted to type the command like this: startx;exit so that the a badguy who terminates the GUI doesn't have access to their command prompt (although they could just access xterm within X anyway). Personally, I always boot to CLI and startx to GUI. SteveT Steve Litt July 2016 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
On 20/07/16 05:24, Steve Litt wrote: > On Wed, 20 Jul 2016 02:03:24 +1200 > Daniel Reurich wrote: > > >> LTSP provides more then just financial benefits. I maintain 3 sites >> using it for computer hubs that provide basic internet access and >> computer skills training. The benefits of that centralisation both of >> the applications platform as well and user storage is easiest this >> way. It' performs great and is easy to maintain. Adding another >> terminal or 2 is dead easy (plug it in and set it to PXE boot). > > Just so we're all on the same page, the word "terminal" in your > preceding sentence really means a (perhaps very low horsepower) computer > sans hard disk and CD, right? > Yup, in this case HP thin clients. But if I manage to keep the platform on Linux (there is move to switch it all to windows) I'm likely to upgrade to an arm device for the terminals. -- Daniel Reurich Centurion Computer Technology (2005) Ltd. 021 797 722 signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
On 07/19/2016 07:38 PM, Robert Storey wrote: About SLIM as a display manager - I'm fine with it, even if it's not really maintained. The important thing is that it's fast, stable, not riddled with security holes (including systemd). I'm open though to changing to something better, if there is something better. cheers, Robert I find it good enough :) Aitor. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
Am Tue, 19 Jul 2016 22:06:11 + schrieb Jaromil : > but then one really needs to be pro-active about it here. So: if > anyone wants a DM that is not packaged, even before asking for it > should do an effort at its packaging. lxdm is there already (in ascii but not jessie). I tried to do a configuration in line with the devuan style guidelines (for the moment, i think it's ok, from this point of view) ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
Am Tue, 19 Jul 2016 19:57:35 + schrieb Joel Roth : > emnin...@riseup.net wrote: > > And as i said before, lxdm is nearly equally leightweight as slim > > and as far as i see not really systemd infected - yet (?). > > Why do you like using a display manager rather than login > and startx? Esthetics? Coherence with the DE? ;) Essentially, you're right ... ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
Jaromil wrote: > On Tue, 19 Jul 2016, Joel Roth wrote: > > > Why do you like using a display manager rather than login > > and startx? > > good question I wasn't daring to pose so far. > > login and startx (and ~/.xinitrc configuration) work like a charm on > Devuan... and anywhere else FWIW. plus give you the big advantage of > not having to start X to execute quick text-only tasks. > > FTR whenever I *need* a DM then I use XDM and ~/.xsession conf. I'm a bit confused about .xinitrc and .xsession. Looks like they're almost interchangeable. From 'man startx' Note that in the Debian system, what many people traditionally put in the .xinitrc file should go in .xsession instead; this permits the same X environment to be presented whether startx, xdm, or xinit is used to start the X session. > the talent of golinux is the main reason why I'm keen to facilitate > the sugar coating of Devuan, because her and hellekin's ideas may > really bring some innovation in making pleasant the visual > presentation of an OS. Although repeating myself, I advocate distributions default to login and startx, just so everyone gets the idea that the terminal is available. Maybe if a sufficient multitude appreciate and expect a terminal, we'll start to get a shell in phones, tablets, etc. in future. Unrealistic, probably, that seeing the terminal equates to using it, but *never* seeing a terminal OTOH helps people be unfamiliary and fearful. Joel -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
Quoting Steve Litt (sl...@troubleshooters.com): > OK, I think I see. I was assuming that there's no graphical terminal > cheaper than a cheap commodity computer with mobo. To the extent that > there are graphical terminals cheaper than commodity computers, it > makes sense. Yeah, well, you put your finger directly on the main economic question. I _tend_ to side with the people who say de-minimus computers are now so damned cheap that non-autonomous consoles don't make economic sense. Having seen just how cheaply a Raspberry Pi 2 can be thrown into a little plastic box with a little power supply, if someone offered me a chance to invest in a firm manufacturing non-Linux-capable terminals competing with them, I'd say 'You first.' At the same time, if others want to try, I'm not opposed to that -per se-, not that they're asking my opinion. Maybe they just happen to own a big pile of terminals. ;-> ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
On Tue, 19 Jul 2016, Joel Roth wrote: > Why do you like using a display manager rather than login > and startx? good question I wasn't daring to pose so far. login and startx (and ~/.xinitrc configuration) work like a charm on Devuan... and anywhere else FWIW. plus give you the big advantage of not having to start X to execute quick text-only tasks. FTR whenever I *need* a DM then I use XDM and ~/.xsession conf. the talent of golinux is the main reason why I'm keen to facilitate the sugar coating of Devuan, because her and hellekin's ideas may really bring some innovation in making pleasant the visual presentation of an OS. but then one really needs to be pro-active about it here. So: if anyone wants a DM that is not packaged, even before asking for it should do an effort at its packaging. ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
On Tue, 19 Jul 2016, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote: > Multiseat is unimportant, barely significant. The price of computers > has dropped enough that the ones with UIs are now personal > devices. The architecture of backends has changed such that UIDs > aren't used for customer IDs. > A few exceptions remain, increasingly rare. I'm sure there are people who > have used that blue icon near the top right corner of the android lock > screen. I absolutely agree with this assesment. Actually, I'm quite sure we are winning an easy game. What is surprising is how many people, supposedly professionals, are actually willing to deny this. I'm not a conspirationist by nature, yet I come to think there is a double agenda here. I can't think so many people are stupid, I'd rather think they are lying. The biggest industrial interest I can perceive behind systemd is actually the full spectrum implementation of DRM from the hardware to the software stack. This is why messages like the one sent by the other Arnt on this list shouldn't be overlooked https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20160612.045420.d84a3334.en.html as well as the US patent 20150040216-A1 "Systems and Methods for Restricting Application Binary Interfaces" filed by Paul Moore, Dan Walsh and Lennart Poettering on behalf of Red Hat. ciao ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
emnin...@riseup.net wrote: > And as i said before, lxdm is nearly equally leightweight as slim and > as far as i see not really systemd infected - yet (?). Why do you like using a display manager rather than login and startx? -- Joel Roth ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
Am Tue, 19 Jul 2016 17:38:16 + schrieb Robert Storey : > About SLIM as a display manager - I'm fine with it, even if it's not > really maintained. The important thing is that it's fast, stable, not > riddled with security holes (including systemd). I'm open though to > changing to something better, if there is something better. When i installed jessie - on another machine with big overheating problems (amd cpu & graphics) slim never ever worked, only console login and startx. irrwahn helped me out (he even made a bugreport somewhere) and in the end lxdm was the login manager which worked. After that experience i sticked with it also installing later on ascii on a less problematic machine. And as i said before, lxdm is nearly equally leightweight as slim and as far as i see not really systemd infected - yet (?). ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
On Tue, 19 Jul 2016 10:59:26 -0700 Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting Steve Litt (sl...@troubleshooters.com): > > > On Tue, 19 Jul 2016 10:08:01 -0700 > > Rick Moen wrote: > > > > > It fits logically into the 'effective use of autonomous host > > > w/console stations having the independent local processing > > > ability that mere consoles lack' category, of course. Was that > > > actually a question? > > > > Yes. What would be the advantage of LTSP over kmscon or systemd? > > What would be the disadvantage? How would one choose between LTSP > > and kmscon (I'm assuming nobody on this list would choose > > systemd)? > > Well, LTSP (and variations thereon) is a very attractive option if > your consoles have motherboards, adequate CPUs, adequate RAM, and the > ability to run Linux. Technically, they don't need local mass > storage, because they can netboot. > > LTSP (and variations thereon) is _outside_ the realm of possibility if > your consoles are just consoles and don't each include a Linux-capable > computer. OK, I think I see. I was assuming that there's no graphical terminal cheaper than a cheap commodity computer with mobo. To the extent that there are graphical terminals cheaper than commodity computers, it makes sense. I hadn't thought much about several people using the same computer for different GUI tasks in the last 12 years. SteveT Steve Litt July 2016 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
Quoting Steve Litt (sl...@troubleshooters.com): > On Tue, 19 Jul 2016 10:08:01 -0700 > Rick Moen wrote: > > > It fits logically into the 'effective use of autonomous host w/console > > stations having the independent local processing ability that mere > > consoles lack' category, of course. Was that actually a question? > > Yes. What would be the advantage of LTSP over kmscon or systemd? What > would be the disadvantage? How would one choose between LTSP and kmscon > (I'm assuming nobody on this list would choose systemd)? Well, LTSP (and variations thereon) is a very attractive option if your consoles have motherboards, adequate CPUs, adequate RAM, and the ability to run Linux. Technically, they don't need local mass storage, because they can netboot. LTSP (and variations thereon) is _outside_ the realm of possibility if your consoles are just consoles and don't each include a Linux-capable computer. People looking fond of multiseat capability wish to bring about a renaissance of non-autonomous console computing. I'm not among them, but consoles did make economic sense decades ago when I was in high school and when minicomputers were in their heyday, and maybe they will again. Or not. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
On Tue, 19 Jul 2016 10:08:01 -0700 Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting Steve Litt (sl...@troubleshooters.com): > > > Where does Linux Terminal Server Project (LTSP, > > http://www.ltsp.org/) fit into this discussion? > > It fits logically into the 'effective use of autonomous host w/console > stations having the independent local processing ability that mere > consoles lack' category, of course. Was that actually a question? Yes. What would be the advantage of LTSP over kmscon or systemd? What would be the disadvantage? How would one choose between LTSP and kmscon (I'm assuming nobody on this list would choose systemd)? Thanks, SteveT Steve Litt July 2016 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
This discussion (which started with just documenting what you could do at the login screen) has certainly taken on a life of its own. For my own needs, I'm not concerned about multiseat, but recognize that a few (probably very few) others are. I suppose if you really want to protect against a single user shutting down or rebooting, you'd have to disable magic keys. Many distros have done that - one of the first things I do after installation is to enable this feature. I should point out that this neat little trick will work under just about any circumstances - if you've got some runaway process eating 99% of memory and want to force a reboot, this should kill it. Generally, it's better to resort to magic keys, as opposed to hitting the reset button or pulling the wall outlet. Magic keys are supposed to terminate processes in an orderly fashion, which is not the case when you pull the power cord from the wall.\\ About SLIM as a display manager - I'm fine with it, even if it's not really maintained. The important thing is that it's fast, stable, not riddled with security holes (including systemd). I'm open though to changing to something better, if there is something better. cheers, Robert ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
On Wed, 20 Jul 2016 02:03:24 +1200 Daniel Reurich wrote: > LTSP provides more then just financial benefits. I maintain 3 sites > using it for computer hubs that provide basic internet access and > computer skills training. The benefits of that centralisation both of > the applications platform as well and user storage is easiest this > way. It' performs great and is easy to maintain. Adding another > terminal or 2 is dead easy (plug it in and set it to PXE boot). Just so we're all on the same page, the word "terminal" in your preceding sentence really means a (perhaps very low horsepower) computer sans hard disk and CD, right? SteveT Steve Litt July 2016 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
Quoting Steve Litt (sl...@troubleshooters.com): > Where does Linux Terminal Server Project (LTSP, http://www.ltsp.org/) > fit into this discussion? It fits logically into the 'effective use of autonomous host w/console stations having the independent local processing ability that mere consoles lack' category, of course. Was that actually a question? ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
On Tue, 19 Jul 2016 01:29:23 -0700 Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting Arnt Gulbrandsen (a...@gulbrandsen.priv.no): > > Simon Walter writes: > > > >> Oh the insolence. Amazing. "You're holding it wrong" comes to > >> mind. There is this guy named Lennart who might agree with you. > > > > Quite likely he might, he's not stupid after all. And I agree too: > > Multiseat is unimportant, barely significant. The price of > > computers has dropped enough that the ones with UIs are now > > personal devices. > > Might be obvious, but just mentioning: 'Multiseat' (GNOME/system > implementation of which proximately caused the systemd-logind > omnishambles of several years ago) needs to be distinguished from > multiuser. > > Unix has been inherently, by design, _multiuser_ since its beginning, > and I for one would be quite sad if my Linux servers were suddenly > 'personal devices': E.g., a Web / SMTPd / ftpd / sshd / rsyncd / > NTPd server like the one in my garage suddenly failing to serve > remote users would be a misfortune. > > I have to confess that I personally didn't understand how multiseat > differs from multiuser on Linux until quite recently. Pro bono > publico: It concerns simultaneous _local_ users. The Linux kernel[1] > can, unaided, make _only one_ (local) virtual terminal active at a > time. Sure, you can (e.g.) have one X11 server attached to /dev/tty7 > and another to /dev/tty8, but it turns out that any time one's > active, the other can't be -- even if two physical sets of console > hardware are attached. So, multiseat is, in short, a system software > elaboration to fix that. > > This missing kernel functionality isn't important to either you, Simon > Walter, or me, but it's a genuine limitation nonetheless, and there's > nothing wrong _per se_ with offering ways around that limitation. > Note that systemd-consoled is not the only candidate: kmscon > preceded it, albeit development is currently stalled. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kmscon > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiseat_configuration#GNU.2FLinux also > mentions several other current implementations. > > So, multiseat is _not_ a systemd invention, nor a systemd monopoly. > > Latter page mentions 'Multiseat setups are great for schools, > libraries, and family computers.' Arguably true, _maybe_. Depends > on the economics of additional consoles versus extra complete > computers, I guess. I enjoyed using minicomputers during high > school: A modern revival of that computing model using Linux might > make money sense or might not, depending. Otherwise, I wouldn't say > today that it'll necessarily be 'unimportant' in years to come. Where does Linux Terminal Server Project (LTSP, http://www.ltsp.org/) fit into this discussion? IIRC LTSP existed long before systemd, and before kmscon too. Thanks, SteveT Steve Litt July 2016 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
Quoting Tomasz Torcz (to...@pipebreaker.pl): > So it would be sensible to ask for root password IF there are other > (remote) users logged in. If there is no one logged in, shutdown/reboot > should be possible without entering root password. You speak as if the consequences of host shutdown (or reboot) were trivial, but that is not the case: A local user who has shutdown the host has terminated all processes (not just his/her own), and made the entire machine unavailable to everyone. Seen that way, I would hope you'd understand that by default shutdown (and to a lesser extent reboot) should be a privileged operation. Of course if your local usage model makes things otherwise, luckily it's not difficult for you as sysadmin to give console users those powers and whatever other powers you wish. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
On Tue, 19 Jul 2016 12:17:32 +0900 Simon Walter wrote: > On 07/19/2016 11:53 AM, Adam Borowski wrote: > ... > > All that talk about multiseat being important or even relevant > > today is IMO bullshit. > ... > > Oh the insolence. Amazing. "You're holding it wrong" comes to mind. > There is this guy named Lennart who might agree with you. :-) Before Adam pronounces "multiseat" "bullshit", and before you associate him with poetterputz, I think an agreement needs to be reached on the exact meaning of "multiseat." SteveT Steve Litt July 2016 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 04:25:59PM +0200, Tomasz Torcz wrote: [cut] > > So it would be sensible to ask for root password IF there are other > (remote) users logged in. If there is no one logged in, shutdown/reboot > should be possible without entering root password. > Above heuristic could be default, with additional setting available > to always/never require root password to shutdown. > If I can contribute 2 pence to this prolonged discussion, I would point out that deciding who and how has the ability to shut-down or reboot a given machine is something that pertains to the *policy* decided by the administrator of that machine. Login managers and other amenities could (or should, according to some of you) provide the *mechanism* to shut down and reboot a machine, but cannot and should not enforce any policy at all about shutting down and rebooting. The reason for that is the same that has produced this prolonged thread: there cannot be any agreement about policies, since everybody has his/her own vision of how his/her computer should behave, and all of them are *correct*. There is a very good explanation to why Unix has been successful in the last 45 years: it has provided *mechanisms*, and a lot of them, for basically any possible operation you might be willing to do on your system, even those which the original creators did not have a clue about. But it has always avoided to enforce any *policy*, i.e. precise ways in which those mechanish have to be used to make sense. Why? Simply because there is a potentially infinite number of policies (and you will realise that if you think that unix flavors currently run on anything, from microcontrollers to supercomputers) and no single size will fit them all. Software should provide mechanisms, and as many and as variegate as possible, but making sense of mechanisms and composing them into policies is the role of the system administrator. The large majority of seasoned unix users and admins would agree that anything that defies this simple principle is totally against the unix phylosophy, and that any discussion that prescinds this simple principle will never converge to an agreement. My2Pence KatolaZ -- [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - GLUGCT -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ] [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ] [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ] [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ] ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
On Tue, 19 Jul 2016 16:25:59 +0200 Tomasz Torcz wrote: > On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 07:43:51PM -0700, Rick Moen wrote: > > Quoting Brad Campbell (lists2...@fnarfbargle.com): > > > > > This is one I find interesting. I've never used an operating > > > system where it was required to know root credentials to halt or > > > reboot the machine from the login screen. > > > > Remember, Unix is a multiuser operating system, and also one > > supporting both local and remote users, who would be annoyed by > > someone deciding to cut them off. > > So it would be sensible to ask for root password IF there are other > (remote) users logged in. If there is no one logged in, > shutdown/reboot should be possible without entering root password. > Above heuristic could be default, with additional setting available > to always/never require root password to shutdown. /etc/slim.conf offers a lot of flexibility if you are willing to edit some additional files, or to create a tool that does it for you. Your suggestions could be implemented easily. libre Grüße, Florian ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 07:43:51PM -0700, Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting Brad Campbell (lists2...@fnarfbargle.com): > > > This is one I find interesting. I've never used an operating system > > where it was required to know root credentials to halt or reboot the > > machine from the login screen. > > Remember, Unix is a multiuser operating system, and also one supporting > both local and remote users, who would be annoyed by someone deciding to > cut them off. So it would be sensible to ask for root password IF there are other (remote) users logged in. If there is no one logged in, shutdown/reboot should be possible without entering root password. Above heuristic could be default, with additional setting available to always/never require root password to shutdown. -- Tomasz Torcz Morality must always be based on practicality. xmpp: zdzich...@chrome.pl-- Baron Vladimir Harkonnen ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 03:03:35PM +0100, Simon Hobson wrote: > Didier Kryn wrote: > > >I guess this is exactly what "multi-seat" means: severall keyboards and > > severall grapical cards connected to the same host. It certainly does not > > include serial terminals. Serial terminal fall in the category > > "multi-user", like ssh connections, not "multi-seat". > > > I disagree there. In the context of "graphical consoles" being > discussed I see where you are coming from, but serial terminals are > just a sub class of multi-seat - while the "multiple graphics > card-keyboard-mouse" setup is another sub-set. The key difference is > that there is a long history of multi-seat via serial (and more > recently, network) terminals and (for example) the serial etc systems > inherently support multi-seat. Indeed, this is how I first used Unix -- multiple serial-interface typewriter terminals connected to one PDP-11. Later we got a few text-only CRTs. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
Didier Kryn wrote: >I guess this is exactly what "multi-seat" means: severall keyboards and > severall grapical cards connected to the same host. It certainly does not > include serial terminals. Serial terminal fall in the category "multi-user", > like ssh connections, not "multi-seat". I disagree there. In the context of "graphical consoles" being discussed I see where you are coming from, but serial terminals are just a sub class of multi-seat - while the "multiple graphics card-keyboard-mouse" setup is another sub-set. The key difference is that there is a long history of multi-seat via serial (and more recently, network) terminals and (for example) the serial etc systems inherently support multi-seat. The way the problem is solved for serial terminals is simple - abstract the hardware into a stable device API, and run multiple instances of the "login" program (one per seat). "In theory" the same should be possible with the graphics-keybourd-mouse combo - EXCEPT that (AIUI) the software components involved were mostly written a) without that standard abstraction and b) without regard to the possibility of multiple instantiations. Just think how easy it musty have seemed at one point to just "intertwine" the software and hardware such that a single instance of "something" acted as the sole gatekeeper between the serial line and the machine - for a single seat. There'd then be discussions on how to work around that to enable multi-seat. As it happens, the serial line one was such a "no brainer" given how many different things used the serial lines - the solution we have must have seemed so obvious from the very beginning. Rob Owens wrote: > I can say with authority that multiseat doesn't have any value *for me*. ... > But I have no idea what the situation is like for people in other parts of > the world, or for people in my part of the world with fewer financial > resources. And that, IMO is a key point. Accepting that different users have different needs - and what we perceive as "of no value" may be the primary use case for others. Unfortunately, too many people, especially those pushing some key software components seem to have lost sight of this and simply declare anything they aren't interested in as "of no value" - or worse, as "wrong". We all, myself included, need to remember that our use case is just that "OUR" use case. It's easy to dismiss opposing viewpoints as having no merit if they don't fit in with our needs/perceptions. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
> > I can say with authority that multiseat doesn't have any value *for > me*. I looked into it a long time ago and decided that LTSP was > more straightforward. These days, prices of hardware have come down > enough that other people replace their computers after only a few > years and I get their hand-me-downs. This has made even LTSP not > worth my while. But I have no idea what the situation is like for > people in other parts of the world, or for people in my part of the > world with fewer financial resources. > LTSP provides more then just financial benefits. I maintain 3 sites using it for computer hubs that provide basic internet access and computer skills training. The benefits of that centralisation both of the applications platform as well and user storage is easiest this way. It' performs great and is easy to maintain. Adding another terminal or 2 is dead easy (plug it in and set it to PXE boot). -- Daniel Reurich Centurion Computer Technology (2005) Ltd. 021 797 722 signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 10:53 PM, Adam Borowski wrote: > Nowadays to find a regular person who doesn't own multiple computers, you > need to go to Africa or rural India. > > I'd say it's safe to assume that a person authorized to login on the > console > (either text or graphical) is supposed to be at least an operator, if not > the owner, of the machine. For weird setups like a kiosk you need to > configure access anyway. All that talk about multiseat being important > or even relevant today is IMO bullshit. > I can say with authority that multiseat doesn't have any value *for me*. I looked into it a long time ago and decided that LTSP was more straightforward. These days, prices of hardware have come down enough that other people replace their computers after only a few years and I get their hand-me-downs. This has made even LTSP not worth my while. But I have no idea what the situation is like for people in other parts of the world, or for people in my part of the world with fewer financial resources. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
Le 19/07/2016 13:34, Adam Borowski a écrit : But why would anyone make a graphical console without a computer this millenium? Even if used just as a thin client, some extra logic to manage this would be nice. A computer costs a few cents these days, or, if you want a capable board and connectors, a few dollars. And even if you insist on connecting two physical GUI consoles, it'd be far more reasonable to given them separate logical machines by one of many ways to do so, than to create an additional layer in a single logical machine. I guess this is exactly what "multi-seat" means: severall keyboards and severall grapical cards connected to the same host. It certainly does not include serial terminals. Serial terminal fall in the category "multi-user", like ssh connections, not "multi-seat". I'm afraid XDMCP I mentionned in my previous email falls in yet another category. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 01:29:23AM -0700, Rick Moen wrote: > Latter page mentions 'Multiseat setups are great for schools, libraries, > and family computers.' Arguably true, _maybe_. Depends on the economics > of additional consoles versus extra complete computers, I guess. I > enjoyed using minicomputers during high school: A modern revival of that > computing model using Linux might make money sense or might not, depending. > Otherwise, I wouldn't say today that it'll necessarily be 'unimportant' in > years to come. But why would anyone make a graphical console without a computer this millenium? Even if used just as a thin client, some extra logic to manage this would be nice. A computer costs a few cents these days, or, if you want a capable board and connectors, a few dollars. And even if you insist on connecting two physical GUI consoles, it'd be far more reasonable to given them separate logical machines by one of many ways to do so, than to create an additional layer in a single logical machine. -- An imaginary friend squared is a real enemy. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
There are lots of unix boxes that serve many users. The mail server that sends this does, without requiring each email user to have a unix account. The only devuan server I have in production so far does, but the users are in a postgres database, not in /etc/password. There are also lots of unix boxes that have many UIDs. Don't android phones assign a uid to each app you install? The concept that's dying or dead is a login screen that asks "which of my many longtime users are you?" and then serve a UI. That used to be common, but nowadays corporate IT tends to give people laptops and each person has files on that laptop, so the laptop is more a singleuser device than a shared-among-whole-company thing. Even if a laptop is accessible to others in principle because of Active Directory or similar, the local files hollow out its multiseat capability. Kiosks remain, but many of those don't usually have longtime users, you get a freshly set up "guest" account when you start. I've also seen one that VNC'd me to my own virtualbox guest instead of using unix/x's multiseat. And of course sshd remains heavily used among many sysadmins, at least, but that too doesn't have a lot to do with login screens or multiseat. Arnt ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
Quoting Simon Walter (si...@gikaku.com): > >I have to confess that I personally didn't understand how multiseat > >differs from multiuser on Linux until quite recently. Pro bono publico: > >It concerns simultaneous _local_ users. > > Does that include serial devices? Excellent question. I am going to chicken out and say, sadly, that I really don't know. My apologies, as I'd like to know, too. > My point was simply that if Devaun is to be useful to many people, > we shouldn't be closed minded about the use cases. FWIW, I certainly concur. (Good heavens, it's mid-morning, British Summer Time, isn't it? Here on the left coast of the Failed Colonies, I badly need to stop harvesting schadenfreude from Ohio political follies, and get to sleep.) ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
On 07/19/2016 05:29 PM, Rick Moen wrote: Quoting Arnt Gulbrandsen (a...@gulbrandsen.priv.no): Simon Walter writes: Oh the insolence. Amazing. "You're holding it wrong" comes to mind. There is this guy named Lennart who might agree with you. Quite likely he might, he's not stupid after all. And I agree too: Multiseat is unimportant, barely significant. The price of computers has dropped enough that the ones with UIs are now personal devices. Might be obvious, but just mentioning: 'Multiseat' (GNOME/system implementation of which proximately caused the systemd-logind omnishambles of several years ago) needs to be distinguished from multiuser. Unix has been inherently, by design, _multiuser_ since its beginning, and I for one would be quite sad if my Linux servers were suddenly 'personal devices': E.g., a Web / SMTPd / ftpd / sshd / rsyncd / NTPd server like the one in my garage suddenly failing to serve remote users would be a misfortune. I have to confess that I personally didn't understand how multiseat differs from multiuser on Linux until quite recently. Pro bono publico: It concerns simultaneous _local_ users. Does that include serial devices? I remember working at a factory where the computer controlled saws, conveyor belts, and other machines in each production line would communicate via serial interfaces with a server. IIRC, they were using SunOS. Of course a very unique use case that has nothing to do with normal "users" and "desktops". My point was simply that if Devaun is to be useful to many people, we shouldn't be closed minded about the use cases. I am not arguing that we strive to include multiseat functionality or any specific login manager or text editor or whatnot. Simply that we should not exclude anything that is easily included just because we don't see a use case for it. I am preaching to choir - I am pretty sure. Simon ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
Quoting Arnt Gulbrandsen (a...@gulbrandsen.priv.no): > Simon Walter writes: > >> Oh the insolence. Amazing. "You're holding it wrong" comes to >> mind. There is this guy named Lennart who might agree with you. > > Quite likely he might, he's not stupid after all. And I agree too: > Multiseat is unimportant, barely significant. The price of computers > has dropped enough that the ones with UIs are now personal devices. Might be obvious, but just mentioning: 'Multiseat' (GNOME/system implementation of which proximately caused the systemd-logind omnishambles of several years ago) needs to be distinguished from multiuser. Unix has been inherently, by design, _multiuser_ since its beginning, and I for one would be quite sad if my Linux servers were suddenly 'personal devices': E.g., a Web / SMTPd / ftpd / sshd / rsyncd / NTPd server like the one in my garage suddenly failing to serve remote users would be a misfortune. I have to confess that I personally didn't understand how multiseat differs from multiuser on Linux until quite recently. Pro bono publico: It concerns simultaneous _local_ users. The Linux kernel[1] can, unaided, make _only one_ (local) virtual terminal active at a time. Sure, you can (e.g.) have one X11 server attached to /dev/tty7 and another to /dev/tty8, but it turns out that any time one's active, the other can't be -- even if two physical sets of console hardware are attached. So, multiseat is, in short, a system software elaboration to fix that. This missing kernel functionality isn't important to either you, Simon Walter, or me, but it's a genuine limitation nonetheless, and there's nothing wrong _per se_ with offering ways around that limitation. Note that systemd-consoled is not the only candidate: kmscon preceded it, albeit development is currently stalled. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kmscon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiseat_configuration#GNU.2FLinux also mentions several other current implementations. So, multiseat is _not_ a systemd invention, nor a systemd monopoly. Latter page mentions 'Multiseat setups are great for schools, libraries, and family computers.' Arguably true, _maybe_. Depends on the economics of additional consoles versus extra complete computers, I guess. I enjoyed using minicomputers during high school: A modern revival of that computing model using Linux might make money sense or might not, depending. Otherwise, I wouldn't say today that it'll necessarily be 'unimportant' in years to come. [1] Some other *ixes such as SunOS and Irix allegedly (per Wikipedia) had multiseat capability since early days, though I have no further details. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
Simon Walter writes: Oh the insolence. Amazing. "You're holding it wrong" comes to mind. There is this guy named Lennart who might agree with you. Quite likely he might, he's not stupid after all. And I agree too: Multiseat is unimportant, barely significant. The price of computers has dropped enough that the ones with UIs are now personal devices. The architecture of backends has changed such that UIDs aren't used for customer IDs. A few exceptions remain, increasingly rare. I'm sure there are people who have used that blue icon near the top right corner of the android lock screen. Arnt ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
On 07/19/2016 11:53 AM, Adam Borowski wrote: ... All that talk about multiseat being important or even relevant today is IMO bullshit. ... Oh the insolence. Amazing. "You're holding it wrong" comes to mind. There is this guy named Lennart who might agree with you. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
Quoting Brad Campbell (lists2...@fnarfbargle.com): > Rick I completely understand that sentiment, and none of my servers > have a GUI on them. I just "assumed" (yeah, my mistake) that display > managers were used only on single user desktop machines. Predominantly, to be sure. In the mid 1990s, when I helped build a Linux-based Internet cafe in San Francisco (which _of course_ is an unusual use-case), we had some interesting problems with this. Each of the Pentium Pro workstations on the tables in the cafe ran xdm as display manager with a nice custom image file as background to the login screen. The workstations were all NIS & NFS clients -- and each was used only by a single local user (cafe customer) at a time. Early on, we played around with restricting ability to shutdown and reboot by changing what the 'ca' directive in /etc/inittab did -- because we were painfully aware that some customers would try to mess with the machines. This turned out to be a bad idea. Basically, if you deprived some people of the ability to do painless local console reboot, they'll be motivated to go pull the mains (AC) power instead, with consequent greater risk of filesystem harm. So, it proved smarter to let 'em reboot if they were determined to do so. The NFS/NIS master, a beefy EISA/VLB 486, was a different matter, and we came up with a good solution. The system box was upstairs in a locked room, with long keyboard and video cables to the keyboard and monitor on a table in the cafe. Customers could login there (no X11) to change/set their passwords only: Their login shell permitted only that action. Ctrl-Alt-Del was trapped and caused to do nothing. We also deliberately set things up so that, if a customer found a way to escalate privilege to root on any of the workstations, he/she would be surprised to find himself/herself having -less- privilege than with a regular user account. E.g., the NFS mounts were all exported with root-squash. Security guy Dan Farmer came to visit one day, did a bit of poking around, and pronounced our security design 'sneaky' (meaning this as a compliment). -- Cheers, « On donne des conseils, mais on ne Rick Moendonne point la sagesse d'en profiter. » r...@linuxmafia.com -- La Rochefoucauld McQ! (4x80) ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 09:38:07AM +0800, Brad Campbell wrote: > So all that rambling comes back to "why do I need to know my root password > to halt or reboot the machine from the login screen?" Because half a century ago you had plenty of users per machine. Rebooting obviously destroyed the work of everyone else, so it was something reserved for trusted operators. I believe such defaults are no longer appropriate. Nowadays to find a regular person who doesn't own multiple computers, you need to go to Africa or rural India. I'd say it's safe to assume that a person authorized to login on the console (either text or graphical) is supposed to be at least an operator, if not the owner, of the machine. For weird setups like a kiosk you need to configure access anyway. All that talk about multiseat being important or even relevant today is IMO bullshit. If you have physical access, you can pull the cord or press reset, period. Attempts to "secure" SysRq met with outcry and changes were reverted, it's enabled by default again. So why not reboot/shutdown/suspend? -- An imaginary friend squared is a real enemy. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
On 19/07/16 10:43, Rick Moen wrote: Quoting Brad Campbell (lists2...@fnarfbargle.com): This is one I find interesting. I've never used an operating system where it was required to know root credentials to halt or reboot the machine from the login screen. Remember, Unix is a multiuser operating system, and also one supporting both local and remote users, who would be annoyed by someone deciding to cut them off. Rick I completely understand that sentiment, and none of my servers have a GUI on them. I just "assumed" (yeah, my mistake) that display managers were used only on single user desktop machines. Windows is a special case, well just because Windows has always been a special case and it has taken Microsoft some 20 years to come to terms with a GUI-less server. Regards, Brad ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
Quoting Brad Campbell (lists2...@fnarfbargle.com): > This is one I find interesting. I've never used an operating system > where it was required to know root credentials to halt or reboot the > machine from the login screen. Remember, Unix is a multiuser operating system, and also one supporting both local and remote users, who would be annoyed by someone deciding to cut them off. Imagine a host with hundreds of simultaneous users, such as (say) a shared ISP machine. You would absolutely not want just anyone to be able to shutdown or reboot the machine at will. Tberefore, the conventional solution to this problem is to require membership in a bespoke group for shutdown/reboot rights. That being said, although the Linux kernel (like those of other Unix-type OSes) can intercept hardware reboot signals (like Ctrl-Alt-Del on x86) and control/define what that does, generally speaking anyone with physical console access can force reboot one way or another anyway. -- Cheers, « On donne des conseils, mais on ne Rick Moendonne point la sagesse d'en profiter. » r...@linuxmafia.com -- La Rochefoucauld McQ! (4x80) ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 11:07:01AM +0900, Simon Walter wrote: > I am pretty sure it's trivial to install a different login manager > if SLiM is not to your liking. Or has systemd crept into the rest of > them? No, lightdm is installable and systemd free on devuan. That along with lightdm-gtk-greeter gives me a fully accessible devuan system, including orca on the login screen, which slim doesn't do. Greg -- web site: http://www.gregn.net gpg public key: http://www.gregn.net/pubkey.asc skype: gregn1 (authorization required, add me to your contacts list first) If we haven't been in touch before, e-mail me before adding me to your contacts. -- Free domains: http://www.eu.org/ or mail dns-mana...@eu.org ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
On 07/19/2016 10:38 AM, Brad Campbell wrote: On 19/07/16 00:37, Steve Litt wrote: SPECIAL USERNAMES For instance, to reboot the computer from the login screen, type in the username "reboot" (without the quotes), then when asked for the password put the root password, and it reboots. ... This is one I find interesting. I've never used an operating system where it was required to know root credentials to halt or reboot the machine from the login screen. Certainly if the machine is logged in but locked, unlocking is required first but on any of the other OS I use I can simply shutdown or reboot unauthenticated ... So all that rambling comes back to "why do I need to know my root password to halt or reboot the machine from the login screen?" Well, that question is probably best answered by the SLiM developers. However, AFAICT the SLiM login manager is no longer maintained. If Devuan is using it as a default, I suggest someone maintain it and make these changes or we use a different login manager. If someone here is maintaining, maybe we want to let the world know. Other OSes might need it. I am pretty sure it's trivial to install a different login manager if SLiM is not to your liking. Or has systemd crept into the rest of them? Simon ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen
On 19/07/16 00:37, Steve Litt wrote: Hi all, SPECIAL USERNAMES The login screen has no controls other than the input field. So how do you reboot, halt or go to a console from the login screen? The answer is, you use a special username. For instance, to reboot the computer from the login screen, type in the username "reboot" (without the quotes), then when asked for the password put the root password, and it reboots. If you want to halt, use the username "halt". To go to a console, use "console" without any password. A little console appears, asking you for username and password. When you exit the console via the exit command or Ctrl+d on the console, you go back to the login screen. This is one I find interesting. I've never used an operating system where it was required to know root credentials to halt or reboot the machine from the login screen. Certainly if the machine is logged in but locked, unlocking is required first but on any of the other OS I use I can simply shutdown or reboot unauthenticated. A good example is my desktop. It's an iMac and it triple boots OSX, Windows & Linux. Now, it only gets rebooted every year or so for a kernel update or if I need to spark up OSX to test something specific. If I reboot the machine and am not there to hold the magic keys required for it to boot to linux, it winds up at the OSX login screen. From there I can simply click reboot and away we go. Why should I need to know the root login to do that? As for root logins on my machines. They all have 16 character randomly generated passwords that are all but impossible to remember. The only time I actually need a root password is if something catastrophic happens and I need to access the rescue console. Everything else is managed with sudo. When I do need the root password I can look it up in my password wallet. I've had to do that precisely 3 times in the last 6 years. So all that rambling comes back to "why do I need to know my root password to halt or reboot the machine from the login screen?" Regards, Brad ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng