Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[Jaromil]

On September 2, 2015 2:12:33 AM GMT+02:00, Gregory Nowak  wrote:
>On Wed, Sep 02, 2015 at 01:59:55AM +0200, poitr pogo wrote:
>> i'm against moderation.

I'm against allowing enemies to sit at a campfire of refugees that have just 
been kicked out of their home.

>I also realize I'm not the owner of
>this list, so I'll quietly resume my seat now.

if you like to open up a new unbiased mailinglist to debate pro and cons of 
systemd, please do. we can host that also here at lists.dyne.org

but be warned: systemd will end up being always the subject, not leaving space 
for anything else, because they are superior and they have already solved all 
problems better than anyone else. Those who have been involved in the past 3 
years of debates and have experience the prevarication in their logic can 
confirm.

ciao

-- 
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Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[Rainer Weikusat]

Tobias Hunger  writes:

[...]

>> on the same grounds, because systemd covers so much ground
>> and does so many things (that *it should not* be doing) that any good
>> engineer who wants to design an alternative will see a lot of insane
>> features and immediately say "Nope, I'm not doing that, it's not the
>> init system's job"; and systemd proponents will always answer "See?
>> systemd is the only one that does that stuff, and all the competition
>> is inferior".
>
> Go talk to other developers, find out what bothers them about the
> non-systemd and systemd status quo and address those issues one by one.
> Then blog about that solution and try to get developers to use it. Act on
> their feedback when they provide it.
>
> I do not see that happening anywhere at this time. So far it is mostly
> claiming everything used to be fine before systemd. It was not.

Considering just the discussions on this list during the last couple of
weeks, this is obviously a strawman.
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Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[tilt!]

Hello Mr. Zini,

On 09/01/2015 07:14 PM, Enrico Zini wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 01, 2015 at 10:09:40AM +0200, Jaromil wrote:
>> [...] I hope Enrico has time to have a look and perhaps include
>> the patch upstream.
>>
> Unfortunately, most likely I will not: I only have time to work on nodm
> when a customer pays for it, and this is not happening at the moment,
> and there does not seem to be any incoming request for it in the near
> future.
>
> I of course would be very happy if people with time and energy could
> take over maintenance of nodm, so that it can be maintained regardless
> of how my work life goes.

The neccessities are understood. Thank you for informing us so quickly.

I will take responsibility for the modifications in Devuan context, and
will propose them to the currently listed Debian maintainers.

There's also a few neccessary fixes to the nodm.init script, they will
be committed as well.

Kind regards,
Tilman

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Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[Jaromil]

On Mon, 31 Aug 2015, KatolaZ wrote:
> Go conquer the world with your little software-engineering
> masterpiece, but please leave us poor cavemen in peace.

You are very kind to call them "systemd-lovers" and call us cavemen. You
are conceding a lot to people who are too full of themselves to even
recognize the courtesy. This is definitely not a cavemen place and to be
against the systemd avalanche does not means to be against progress or
advancement.  But thanks for your attitude, it helps avoiding the sparks
being sown here to become flames.

Another thing I wonder while reading this interaction is how old are
systemd hooligans, when Tobias talks about "long run" and what goes bad
with it.  I have seen most experienced and elderly people so far being
completely opposed to systemd. How far one can go claiming to have
long-term vision in this situation?  You are right, this is surreal,
perhaps even worst: its a lie.

While we go on with Devuan I'm happy not only because we are brilliantly
achieving our goals, but also because I have an opportunity to listen to
people who are *really* experienced and whose voice has been overcome
for too long by arrogance and manipulation. Let them not be fatigued
again to reply to this arrogance and lies, their time is more precious
than that.

ciao


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Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[Gregory Nowak]

On Wed, Sep 02, 2015 at 01:59:55AM +0200, poitr pogo wrote:
> i'm against moderation.
> if you find his posts disturbing use killfile instead.

I have to agree here. He's not spamming, he's expressing his unbounded
enthusiasm for all things systemd (call it trolling if you
want). Frankly, I've found the logic he uses in a lot of his posts
quite amusing. I don't like the idea of censorship in general. If we
won't allow the other side to express their views, then why should
they allow us to express ours? I also realize I'm not the owner of
this list, so I'll quietly resume my seat now.

Greg


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Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[Steven W. Scott]

It wont be perfect until we have Powerbash.

SWS
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Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[poitr pogo]

i'm against moderation.
if you find his posts disturbing use killfile instead.

--
regards
piotr
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Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[KatolaZ]

On Tue, Sep 01, 2015 at 10:04:13AM +0200, Tobias Hunger wrote:

[cut]

> 
> Which concrete problems did you, Jude and whoever solve recently?
> 

I know this is hard to believe for you, but all those efforts are
intended to avoid a bloated software, whose conception has nothing to
do with the most basic unix principles, whose development proceeds
though an avalanche of "won't fix", whose aims have nothing to do with
a general-purpose solution to some of the problems of "old" init
systems.

Whatever you can say, whichever fantastic feature your beloved monster
has to offer, and whatever compelling argument you might find to
support it, systemd will remain a misconceived, badly developed,
bloated piece of software. There is really nothing you can do about
that. Any attempt to argument with us, the cavemen, is futile. Cavemen
understand only stone, wood and fire.

Go conquer the world with your shiny spacecraft.

> What is your (meant collectively here) proposal to manage cgroups
> consistently? That is the one core feature of systemd that make other
> software depend on systemd-PID1 - directly or indirectly via other services.
> 
> Please blog as much as you can so that developers can find out about what
> you are doing. Posting here won't get your message across I think.
> 

I know this other piece is hard to understand for you as well, but
technical solutions are not "discussed on blogs" but implemented,
tested, adopted, debugged and improved over time. Discussions,
explanations, diagrams, and blog posts, which seem to be so loved and
appreciated in the systemd camp, are necessary only when the quality
and clarity of a technical solution does not speak for itself. The
code tells much more than we humans can. If code needs an explanation,
there is something wrong with it.

Go conquer the world. Please leave us playing in peace with our
beloved fire, wood, and stones.

HND

KatolaZ

-- 
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[ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ]
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Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[Jaromil]

On Tue, 01 Sep 2015, tilt! wrote:
> Speaking of which, my patch for "nodm" is online at [1].
> 
> Kind regards,
> T.
> 
> Links:
> 
> [1] "nodm" Devuan package source 0.11-1.3~sls1.
> URL: https://git.devuan.org/tilt/nodm

Great :^) I hope Enrico has time to have a look and perhaps include the
patch upstream.

best wishes

-- 
Denis "Jaromil" Roio, Dyne.org Think (& Do) Tank
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Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[Rainer Weikusat]

Tobias Hunger  writes:
> Am 31.08.2015 21:50 schrieb "KatolaZ" :
>> The sole fact that you consider anything else than systemd as "a
>> lesser" option[...]
>
> Hi KatolaZ,
>
> there are several inits (plus surrounding code like startup scripts) that
> do not require a hack like that.

It would still need to be determined if the process manager used in this
case actually needs to be aware of the system state or if this is rather
a flaw in the shutdown procedure, ie, it's not shutting down the process
manager but the managed application without informing the process
manager about it.

The fact that "replacement inits" (just like "C string libraries") are
classic 'rites de passage' programming and that their authors usually
conflate them with process managers because that's how sysvinit works
and they know that is still totally unrelated to that.

[...]

> And yes, checking for shutdown in a service is a hack. Things like that are
> a maintenance nightmare in the long run, especially when they start to get
> copied into other services.

"Bad stuff might happen in future!" is a pretty generic, weak reason for
anything: The process manager shouldn't need to be aware of the system
being shut down because it's manageing a process and not the system.
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Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[Jaromil]

On Mon, 31 Aug 2015, Tobias Hunger wrote:

> And yes, any init system that needs hacks like the one tilt! is doing
> for his display manager is a lesser one.

so also busybox then, are they lesser userland utilities ?

and uclibc or mulib, are they lesser libc implementations?

how about Hurd or *BSD, are they lesser kernels?

is there somewhere a linear comparison chart of what is better and what
is lesser in *NIX? I imagine it could be maintained by systemd
developers, since anyone else is a lesser hacker anyway.

sarcasm aside, if there is one project that can say what is better code
IMHO is the GNU project and our vision is not about quality being
directly proportional to the quantities of features a system provides.
Quality depends from many factors: documentation, flexibility,
interoperability and design choices as language and code architecture,
last but not least the purpose for the software being written...

back to the hack you mention, I'm not sure anyone here is looking
forward to judge each other hacks, but the way your conversation went
with tilt! says a lot about other relational problems we may not want to
debate here and that I perceive as affecting many systemd hooligans.

ciao


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Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[Jaromil]

I'll refrain quoting the rest of the reply, which contains some obvious
manipulations.

On Tue, 01 Sep 2015, Tobias Hunger wrote:

>Please blog as much as you can so that developers can find out about what
>you are doing. Posting here won't get your message across I think.

so now you are trying to convince people here that this is an unrelevant
place for debate? what a fine strategy! Haven't you read my previous
mail, that you are not welcome here? Are you following up to your
declaration, that you'll just lurk, or should I proceed by other means?

Tobias Hunger, you are not welcome here!

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Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[Laurent Bercot]

On 01/09/2015 10:29, Jaromil wrote:

if you can confirm the plan of releasing r6-rc within september


 I confirm it.

--
 Laurent

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Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[Tobias Hunger]

Hi Laurent,

Am 31.08.2015 9:24 nachm. schrieb "Laurent Bercot" :
>
> On 31/08/2015 20:56, Tobias Hunger wrote:
>>
>> Oh, I am pretty happy with systemd and won't lie about that. I would
>> still like to see some competition going.
>
>
>  That's pretty much the crux of the problem here. Nothing can compete
> with systemd

Now that is a really depressing outlook.

I am way more positive than about your chances than that. X11 used to be
impossible to replace because of drivers and we are pretty close to getting
Wayland anyway. Heck, windows was the future for ages and now its Linux
that rules everything but the desktop.

Keep on hacking, you can make a difference:)

> on the same grounds, because systemd covers so much ground
> and does so many things (that *it should not* be doing) that any good
> engineer who wants to design an alternative will see a lot of insane
> features and immediately say "Nope, I'm not doing that, it's not the
> init system's job"; and systemd proponents will always answer "See?
> systemd is the only one that does that stuff, and all the competition
> is inferior".

Go talk to other developers, find out what bothers them about the
non-systemd and systemd status quo and address those issues one by one.
Then blog about that solution and try to get developers to use it. Act on
their feedback when they provide it.

I do not see that happening anywhere at this time. So far it is mostly
claiming everything used to be fine before systemd. It was not.

>  Even where competition *can* happen, systemd likes to fudge the odds.

So solve the same problem in a better way. Superior solutions *do* get
adopted by developers. Most do not care a single bit where that solution
comes from!

> For an example that I know because I had to deal with it not long ago:
> the sd_notify() protocol was made so that a process' supervisor has to
> be listening on a Unix domain socket, which ultimately favors the model
> where the supervisor for all the daemons is a single program performing
> all the service management tasks: so in order to implement a server for
> sd_notify, you basically have to adopt the systemd monolithic
architecture,
> which means, in essence, rewrite systemd - and, obviously, no sane
> person wants to do that.

I do not see why you would need the same socket for all daemons, but you
probably know that matter better than me, so I have to trust you on that
statement.

>  So by this single design choice, systemd ensures that it's the only
> service manager that can actually implement sd_notify. And systemd
> enthusiasts actively try to make daemon authors use sd_notify, saying
> "Oh, but it's a good notification protocol; and the protocol is free,
> and it's all open source, so people who want to write an alternative
> server are free to do so!" with a bright smile and big, innocent
> eyes; but it's nothing short of misleading and dishonest.

SD_notify is so much simpler to do than double forking, so most developers
will pick that on their own.

Do something even simpler and they will use that instead.

Developers want to solve the problems that interest them and will use the
simplest possible solution for the others:-)

>  systemd does not play fair by *any* measure;

They do whatever makes their lives easier, just like any other open source
project out there.

> the only way to provide
> healthy competition is to ignore everything it's doing, and design
> a sane, Unixish init system, as well as sane, Unixish administrative
> tools,  from the ground up.

Yes, please! A reimplementation is no alternative and not a serious
competition.

>  I'm working on it with s6-rc. Jude is working on the udev system
> with vdev. Other people are working on the other parts of the Linux
> userspace that systemd would love to phagocyte. And we are not
> getting the kind of money or resources that the systemd lead
> developers are, so it's a longer, harder task; but don't worry, the
> competition exists and is getting better everyday.

Which concrete problems did you, Jude and whoever solve recently?

What is your (meant collectively here) proposal to manage cgroups
consistently? That is the one core feature of systemd that make other
software depend on systemd-PID1 - directly or indirectly via other services.

Please blog as much as you can so that developers can find out about what
you are doing. Posting here won't get your message across I think.

Best Regards,
Tobias
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Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[Jaromil]

On Mon, 31 Aug 2015, Laurent Bercot wrote:

>  I'm working on it with s6-rc. Jude is working on the udev system
> with vdev. Other people are working on the other parts of the Linux
> userspace that systemd would love to phagocyte. And we are not
> getting the kind of money or resources that the systemd lead
> developers are, so it's a longer, harder task; but don't worry, the
> competition exists and is getting better everyday.

if you can confirm the plan of releasing r6-rc within september, then
we'll mention it in the Devuan Beta announcement among the contemplated
alternatives being developed. This should bring more attention and
testers to the project, if this is desired at this stage.

ciao


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Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[Steve Litt]

On Tue, 1 Sep 2015 10:04:13 +0200
Tobias Hunger  wrote:

[snip]

> Now that is a really depressing outlook.
> 
> I am way more positive than about your chances than that. 

[snip]

> Keep on hacking, you can make a difference:)

[snip]
 
> Go talk to other developers, find out what bothers them about the
> non-systemd and systemd status quo and address those issues one by
> one. 

He really *is* in love with himself: I thought it was just a summer
thing. The systemd troll tells *us* how to think, how to maintain
positivity, how to code, and what to "blog".

Life's too short. I have til tomorrow at 5pm to put together a Node.js
presentation. Edward's busy making a no-systemd, no-dbus network
helper. Most everyone is contributing, and this guy's consuming our
mental clock cycles with his bullshit.

Well, as Steve Jobs used to say, "there's an app for that":

# "Systemd troll" Tobias Hunger
:0:
* From.*redac...@redacted.com
* ^(To|Cc).*dng@lists.dyne.org
/dev/null

Like I said, life's too short.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
August 2015 featured book: Troubleshooting: Just the Facts
http://www.troubleshooters.com/tjust
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Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[John Crisp]

On 30/08/15 09:26, Steve Litt wrote:

> You know why, Nate. You were on Debian-User in the bad old days. Back
> in the day, how many times did I get called a conspiracy theorist for
> answering that question.
> 
> Three words:
> 
> 1. Follow
> 2. the
> 3. money.
> 

So true, so true.

I personally don't believe for one moment that systemd was an accident.
It was a well planned and well executed program (unlike systemd itself
!) to enable RH to control 'Linux'. A silent coup if you like.

If RH couldn’t buy Linus to control development then they had to build
around the issue. They've done an extremely good job. Unfortunately.

RH new devs would leap in and argue the technical merits (as opposed to
the political ones) whilst their media/propaganda department got on with
selling it as a great idea.

They were completely outflanked and out manoeuvred by a large
corporation with a big budget and their own (shareholders) interests at
heart.

My 10c FWIW.



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Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[Laurent Bercot]

On 01/09/2015 10:04, Tobias Hunger wrote:

Now that is a really depressing outlook.


 What can I say: the state of affairs with the systemd madness
*is* depressing.



I am way more positive than about your chances than that. X11 used to
be impossible to replace because of drivers and we are pretty close
to getting Wayland anyway.


 Eh, if you like systemd, it probably makes sense that you like Wayland;
but I don't. Wayland is yet another integrated, all-encompassing,
monolithic (despite otherwise claims) attempt at solving a problem, with
the exact same design issues as systemd.

 Granted, the X problem is much more acute than the init problem, and
much harder; and it's probably impossible, given our technical knowledge,
to find a solution that accommodates both my desire for security and
modularity and a modern graphics system's need for performance and
support for stuff like 3D. But still, I don't think Wayland is the right
answer, and I'm not exactly impatient to see it released.



Heck, windows was the future for ages


 No, Windows was never the future. Windows was the present, because it
was all people had. Unfortunately, when it was released, Windows
was already 20 years behind the academic state of the art in
operating systems; so, a more accurate statement would be that
Windows was the past. :P

 Windows was the future from a "market shares" point of view, and
you are reasoning in market shares terms - this is also exactly
what systemd is doing. And the reason why Linux eventually took
over is that it was designed right in the first place. In the
same fashion, we are getting things right first no matter what is
happening in the marketplace, and we will eventually take over.



I do not see that happening anywhere at this time. So far it is
mostly claiming everything used to be fine before systemd. It was
not.


 What you are saying is that the "anti-systemd" camp is lacking
communication effort. You're right. I can't talk for other people,
but as far as I'm concerned, I've been totally taken by surprise
by systemd's success. I've always found it so technically inept
that I simply could not see it spreading, so I just ignored it.
Boy, was I wrong: so many resources - time, money, energy - have
been poured into communicating about systemd that it has become
the most talked-about init system ever. If a quarter of the
resources spent in promoting systemd had been spent on hiring
experienced Unix programmers and designing a better init system,
we would all be in paradise right now.
 And propaganda works: when you smother people with information
about a product, they tend to forget that this product is not the
only thing that exists.

 What is important to realize is that the "alternatives to systemd"
community is not a company: it is mostly made of people who only
have an interest in the technical side of things (i.e. who like to
get things right before making big announcements) and it does not
have the resources of a company (i.e. getting things right takes
time, and communicating also takes more time).

 So it's obvious why you're not hearing much about alternatives
yet. But the loudest voice is not necessarily the wisest;
actually, it very rarely is.



I do not see why you would need the same socket for all daemons


 It is possible to open as many sockets as there are daemons, but
this is only desirable if you're using the daemontools model, i.e.
one supervisor per daemon. And if you're using that model, opening
a socket to listen to daemon notifications is entirely unnecessary
and a waste of resources, so why would you do that? s6, for instance,
has a simpler notification model that does not need a socket. Using
the NOTIFY_SOCKET mechanism would require a deep rework of the
supervisor code for a net loss in simplicity and maintainability.
So, in practice, NOTIFY_SOCKET only benefits monolithic designs.



SD_notify is so much simpler to do than double forking, so most
developers will pick that on their own.
Do something even simpler and they will use that instead.


 I've already done it. Writing a newline to stdout is much
simpler than using sd_notify().
 You haven't heard of it because I'm not in the "communication"
phase yet. I want to get s6-rc ready first: deeds before words.



They do whatever makes their lives easier, just like any other open
source project out there.


 No, that's not the right way to look at it. Despite the licensing
terms, systemd *does not* have an "open source" approach; it has a
proprietary, company-driven approach, with the exact same political
and technical stunts as proprietary software to make people use it,
to make sure it grabs the market and holds it captive. As I said,
systemd does not play fair: it pretends to play the open source
game where projects are judged and adopted or ignored on mostly
technical merits - but it's heavily skewing the rules and behaving
in the open source world like a bully in a schoolyard.



Which concrete problems did you, 

Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[shraptor]

On 2015-09-01 11:48, Laurent Bercot wrote:

On 01/09/2015 10:29, Jaromil wrote:

if you can confirm the plan of releasing r6-rc within september


 I confirm it.


I am interested in r6-rc is there any place to read more about it
or perhaps I have to wait for the release?


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Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[Go Linux]

On Tue, 9/1/15, Jaromil  wrote:

 Subject: Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into 
systemd on Fedora Rawhide
 To: dng@lists.dyne.org
 Date: Tuesday, September 1, 2015, 8:37 AM
 
[snip]

> We do not need these sorts of debates here, we need to facilitate the
> work of those developing alternatives, without such tiring discussions.
> 
> That's why I put under moderation Tobias posts and will do with all
> others that are here to foster such reiterated discussions. We are not
> here to debate systemd, its good and bads and the reasons behind it. We
> are here because we have already left, we have already decided it
> doesn't work for us and we are determined to develop and encourage the
> development of alternatives.
> 
> Lets concentrate and make this campfire a pleasant place for all those
> who are busy and can use good advices and testing. There is a lot of
> space for future successful developments here, the demand and good ideas
> are surely not lacking.
> 



Agreed.  Tobias 'contributions' are a waste of our good time and distract us 
from our goal.  Please moderate his posts so we can get on with the task at 
hand.

To Tobias . . . please  . . . just go away . . .

golinux

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Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[jfmxl]

On 2015-09-01 19:26, John Crisp wrote:

On 30/08/15 09:26, Steve Litt wrote:


You know why, Nate. You were on Debian-User in the bad old days. Back
in the day, how many times did I get called a conspiracy theorist for
answering that question.

Three words:

1. Follow
2. the
3. money.



So true, so true.

I personally don't believe for one moment that systemd was an accident.
It was a well planned and well executed program (unlike systemd itself
!) to enable RH to control 'Linux'. A silent coup if you like.

If RH couldn’t buy Linus to control development then they had to build
around the issue. They've done an extremely good job. Unfortunately.

RH new devs would leap in and argue the technical merits (as opposed to
the political ones) whilst their media/propaganda department got on 
with

selling it as a great idea.

They were completely outflanked and out manoeuvred by a large
corporation with a big budget and their own (shareholders) interests at
heart.

My 10c FWIW.


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It was RH in league with/fronting for the NSA.
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Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[John Crisp]

On 01/09/15 15:16, jfmxl wrote:
> 
> It was RH in league with/fronting for the NSA.

I'm not an ardent conspiracy theorist so that's one step too far for me
personally, though I do understand your thinking.

RH is more than capable of doing this itself for it's own ends. It is
doing nothing illegal. Immoral perhaps, but not illegal.

The NSA et al are more than capable of hacking anything themselves
anyway. They don't need help from RH or anyone else.



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Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[Jaromil]

On Tue, 01 Sep 2015, John Crisp wrote:

> On 01/09/15 15:16, jfmxl wrote:
> > 
> > It was RH in league with/fronting for the NSA.
> 
> I'm not an ardent conspiracy theorist so that's one step too far for me
> personally, though I do understand your thinking.
> 
> RH is more than capable of doing this itself for it's own ends. It is
> doing nothing illegal. Immoral perhaps, but not illegal.
> 
> The NSA et al are more than capable of hacking anything themselves
> anyway. They don't need help from RH or anyone else.

I agree. In any case these speculation do not really serve anyone here.
I would really appreciate if we all make an effort and stop talking in
these terms, outing frustrations and such.

We do not need these sorts of debates here, we need to facilitate the
work of those developing alternatives, without such tiring discussions.

That's why I put under moderation Tobias posts and will do with all
others that are here to foster such reiterated discussions. We are not
here to debate systemd, its good and bads and the reasons behind it. We
are here because we have already left, we have already decided it
doesn't work for us and we are determined to develop and encourage the
development of alternatives.

Lets concentrate and make this campfire a pleasant place for all those
who are busy and can use good advices and testing. There is a lot of
space for future successful developments here, the demand and good ideas
are surely not lacking.


ciao


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Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[Laurent Bercot]

On 01/09/2015 15:50, shraptor wrote:

I am interested in r6-rc is there any place to read more about it
or perhaps I have to wait for the release?


 http://skarnet.org/s6-rc/ but you won't see much there until it's
released.
 You can get a preliminary look, which includes some early
documentation, at https://github.com/skarnet/s6-rc
 Discussion happens on the skaw...@list.skarnet.org mailing-list,
so please subscribe to it and post there if you have comments or
suggestions!
 Note that s6-rc relies heavily on s6, so if you're unfamiliar
with process supervision, you may want to start there first.

 Have fun,

--
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Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[Rainer Weikusat]

Steve Litt  writes:
> On Sun, 30 Aug 2015 21:11:01 -0500
> Nate Bargmann  wrote:
>
>> And all along I thought a "dock" had to do with a place to put program
>> icons on a desktop and that "docker" was a tool to handle it.  I've
>> ignored everything about virtual machines except for Virtual Box and
>> QEMU.
>> 
>> Evidently, I now have to know that a "container" is a virtual machine.
>> Or is it?  Seems like more buzz words for buzz words sake.
>> 
>> - Nate
>
> There's a distinction. A VM is an instance of an entire operating
> system, including kernel. It can run pretty much any OS as a guest.
>
> A container guest uses the host's OS, so the host must be Linux. The
> advantage is very, very quick startup and very low resources, not
> having to run an entire kernel in each instance.
>
> "Docker" is one implementation of a container.

Not really. Linux provides so-called 'control groups' for manageing
process groups and 'kernel namespaces' in order to facilitate presenting
different 'views' of some (set of) kernel subsystem(s) to different
processes. 'Docker' is (collectively) some middleware plus a user
interface for enabling use of these kernel features to run applications
(or groups of applications) isolated from other (groups of)
applications(s) on the same system. As does the original 'Linux
Containers' project,

https://linuxcontainers.org/

and systemd as well.

With their usual, charming, veraciousness, some
systemd advocates like to represent using these features as "systemd
innovations" and the systemd implementation is - also as usual - geared
towards "thou shalt have no others before me".
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Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[Jaromil]

On Sun, 30 Aug 2015, Tobias Hunger wrote:

> > if that is even a legitimate account,
> 
> Yes.  Did we get to the point where we need fake emails to follow up
> on free software projects now?

since none of your emails are cryptographically signed, noone can really
tell if this is an impersonation. Bear in mind trolling is the main
tactic used by systemd hooligans: all those of us who got exposed
through Devuan have received various attacks of different kinds.


> > is he getting paid for his time spent here?

my curiosity refers to the fact systemd has a development budget and a
propaganda budget: since years now there are many people on that
payroll. Of course the sort of asymmetry generated is nothing new for
standardization processes.

> Seriously? I was answering to a direct technical question on systemd
> raised on this very list.

This is not the only context where people think that "Small is
beautiful", to quote E.F. Schumacher.

what really disturbed me is the arrogance of that definition "lesser
init systems" which in general depicts pretty much the attitude of
systemd hooligans, often scaling to full range trolling.

"Lesser" may just be substituted with "Smaller". How about that?

ciao




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Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[Tobias Hunger]

On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 7:40 PM, Jaromil  wrote:
> On Sun, 30 Aug 2015, Tobias Hunger wrote:
>
>> > if that is even a legitimate account,
>>
>> Yes.  Did we get to the point where we need fake emails to follow up
>> on free software projects now?
>
> since none of your emails are cryptographically signed, noone can really
> tell if this is an impersonation. Bear in mind trolling is the main
> tactic used by systemd hooligans: all those of us who got exposed
> through Devuan have received various attacks of different kinds.

Gmail is not the ideal place to sign mails, sorry:-(

I did keep breaking my private mail server because I kept playing with
it, so at some point I just gave up and moved everything over to
gmail. I use email to follow mailing lists only and google indexes
those anyway.

But this mail is not signed either, so I could still be in impostor.

>> > is he getting paid for his time spent here?
>
> my curiosity refers to the fact systemd has a development budget and a
> propaganda budget: since years now there are many people on that
> payroll. Of course the sort of asymmetry generated is nothing new for
> standardization processes.

They do not have the resources to pay for a github account. Guess that
is due to all the money being in the propaganda budget.

>> Seriously? I was answering to a direct technical question on systemd
>> raised on this very list.
>
> This is not the only context where people think that "Small is
> beautiful", to quote E.F. Schumacher.
>
> what really disturbed me is the arrogance of that definition "lesser
> init systems" which in general depicts pretty much the attitude of
> systemd hooligans, often scaling to full range trolling.
>
> "Lesser" may just be substituted with "Smaller". How about that?

Oh, I am pretty happy with systemd and won't lie about that. I would
still like to see some competition going.

And yes, any init system that needs hacks like the one tilt! is doing
for his display manager is a lesser one.

Best Regards,
Tobias
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Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[Laurent Bercot]

On 31/08/2015 20:56, Tobias Hunger wrote:

Oh, I am pretty happy with systemd and won't lie about that. I would
still like to see some competition going.


 That's pretty much the crux of the problem here. Nothing can compete
with systemd on the same grounds, because systemd covers so much ground
and does so many things (that *it should not* be doing) that any good
engineer who wants to design an alternative will see a lot of insane
features and immediately say "Nope, I'm not doing that, it's not the
init system's job"; and systemd proponents will always answer "See?
systemd is the only one that does that stuff, and all the competition
is inferior".

 Even where competition *can* happen, systemd likes to fudge the odds.
For an example that I know because I had to deal with it not long ago:
the sd_notify() protocol was made so that a process' supervisor has to
be listening on a Unix domain socket, which ultimately favors the model
where the supervisor for all the daemons is a single program performing
all the service management tasks: so in order to implement a server for
sd_notify, you basically have to adopt the systemd monolithic architecture,
which means, in essence, rewrite systemd - and, obviously, no sane
person wants to do that.

 So by this single design choice, systemd ensures that it's the only
service manager that can actually implement sd_notify. And systemd
enthusiasts actively try to make daemon authors use sd_notify, saying
"Oh, but it's a good notification protocol; and the protocol is free,
and it's all open source, so people who want to write an alternative
server are free to do so!" with a bright smile and big, innocent
eyes; but it's nothing short of misleading and dishonest.

 systemd does not play fair by *any* measure; the only way to provide
healthy competition is to ignore everything it's doing, and design
a sane, Unixish init system, as well as sane, Unixish administrative
tools,  from the ground up.

 I'm working on it with s6-rc. Jude is working on the udev system
with vdev. Other people are working on the other parts of the Linux
userspace that systemd would love to phagocyte. And we are not
getting the kind of money or resources that the systemd lead
developers are, so it's a longer, harder task; but don't worry, the
competition exists and is getting better everyday.

--
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Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[tilt!]

Hi,

On 08/31/2015 08:56 PM, Tobias Hunger wrote:
> [...]
> And yes, any init system that needs hacks like the one tilt! is
> doing for his display manager is a lesser one.

This is an outrage! I don't do "hacks", i perform highly qualified
high-tech science development for the sake of future generations!1

Seriously, what's all the excitement about.

The additional test i wrote for "nodm" works well, but i won't
submit the patch yet, because i've been talking to the BSD folks,
and they require yet a different type of test (which is actually
very straightforward: "check for a nologin file"). I want to
complete the test in that regard before submitting it. Isn't the
BSD solution the punchiest of all? No runlevels, no services, no
signalling fireworks, on-point semantics: "shutdown sets nologin,
so nodm should not log in. The end."

I have made a couple of interesting experiences when writing
"jack-autostart". So far there's been no IPC problem i couldn't
manage using signals, but when doing so, i found a little bug in
"jackd" when it comes to shutting down a device driver due to a
hotplug removal  event. So, in this particular instance, it
wasn't an init system or operating system that caused me trouble,
but a small bug in one of the involved component programs, that,
if everything goes well, i will even be able to fix.

I think that's how it works - as soon as one seriously is using
a system, one finds bugs and tries to get them eliminated.
That's how stuff improves. Hopefully.

Anyway, i see no need to bash each other's heads in like this.

Kind regards,
T.

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Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[KatolaZ]

On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 08:56:33PM +0200, Tobias Hunger wrote:

[cut]

> 
> Oh, I am pretty happy with systemd and won't lie about that. I would
> still like to see some competition going.
> 
> And yes, any init system that needs hacks like the one tilt! is doing
> for his display manager is a lesser one.

The sole fact that you consider anything else than systemd as "a
lesser" option and that would like to see "some competition going"
confirms how different are the views, the motivations, the objectives,
and the dreams on the two sides of the surreal barricade that
systemd-lovers have built around themselves. As if a
"systemd-vs-the-rest-of-the-world" war was going on.

The story is much more simple and straight than you can imagine: we
are not paid to allow RedHat gaining full control of the Linux server
market, we don't like systemd (yes, there are people who don't agree
with you), we don't buy the systemd propaganda, and we are doing our
best to get around it. We have nothing to show to the world. There is
no competition to enter. No prize to be won. No opponent to be
massacred. Just the necessity to find an alternative to what we
consider pure insanity. 

Go conquer the world with your little software-engineering
masterpiece, but please leave us poor cavemen in peace.

HND

KatolaZ

-- 
[ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ]
[ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ]
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Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[Rainer Weikusat]

KatolaZ  writes:
> On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 08:56:33PM +0200, Tobias Hunger wrote:
>
> [cut]
>
>> 
>> Oh, I am pretty happy with systemd and won't lie about that. I would
>> still like to see some competition going.

[...]

> Go conquer the world with your little software-engineering
> masterpiece, but please leave us poor cavemen in peace.

The poor cavemen are the guys with the huge, elaborate stone tools
... :->
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Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[Steve Litt]

On Mon, 31 Aug 2015 20:59:24 +0100
Rainer Weikusat  wrote:

> KatolaZ  writes:

> [...]
> 
> > Go conquer the world with your little software-engineering
> > masterpiece, but please leave us poor cavemen in peace.
> 
> The poor cavemen are the guys with the huge, elaborate stone tools
> ... :->

Not huge or elaborate. The tools we top developers (not poor cavemen)
use are durable, effective, modular, and assemblable.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
August 2015 featured book: Troubleshooting: Just the Facts
http://www.troubleshooters.com/tjust
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Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[Tobias Hunger]

Am 31.08.2015 21:50 schrieb "KatolaZ" :
> The sole fact that you consider anything else than systemd as "a
> lesser" option[...]

Hi KatolaZ,

there are several inits (plus surrounding code like startup scripts) that
do not require a hack like that. Systemd is just one of those and I am
fully aware of that. Sorry for not making that clear in the original post.

And yes, checking for shutdown in a service is a hack. Things like that are
a maintenance nightmare in the long run, especially when they start to get
copied into other services.

Best Regards,
Tobias
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Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[Steve Litt]

On Sun, 30 Aug 2015 21:11:01 -0500
Nate Bargmann  wrote:

> And all along I thought a "dock" had to do with a place to put program
> icons on a desktop and that "docker" was a tool to handle it.  I've
> ignored everything about virtual machines except for Virtual Box and
> QEMU.
> 
> Evidently, I now have to know that a "container" is a virtual machine.
> Or is it?  Seems like more buzz words for buzz words sake.
> 
> - Nate

There's a distinction. A VM is an instance of an entire operating
system, including kernel. It can run pretty much any OS as a guest.

A container guest uses the host's OS, so the host must be Linux. The
advantage is very, very quick startup and very low resources, not
having to run an entire kernel in each instance.

"Docker" is one implementation of a container.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
August 2015 featured book: Troubleshooting: Just the Facts
http://www.troubleshooters.com/tjust
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Re: [DNG] The show goes on: ???su??? command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[Laurent Bercot]

On 30/08/2015 04:29, Isaac Dunham wrote:

Correction for this:
Alpine Linux is OpenRC based.


 Ah, sorry, I mixed them: it's Void Linux that's runit-based.

--
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Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[Steve Litt]

On Sat, 29 Aug 2015 18:05:47 -0500
Nate Bargmann n...@n0nb.us wrote:

 * On 2015 29 Aug 16:14 -0500, Steve Litt wrote:
 
  Yeah, that isn't a problem, and shouldn't be a problem.
  Interestingly, in my LUG, the most pro-systemd guys are the
  mega-metal admins administering hundreds of boxes with hundreds of
  Docker containers. These guys are telling me systemd is necessary
  to efficiently manage the Dockers.
 
 Okay, then the big official unanswered question is why don't RH,
 et. al. just target that use case and leave the rest of us alone?  Why
 does the rest of the ecosystem need this big sucking sound?

:-)

You know why, Nate. You were on Debian-User in the bad old days. Back
in the day, how many times did I get called a conspiracy theorist for
answering that question.

Three words:

1. Follow
2. the
3. money.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
August 2015 featured book: Troubleshooting: Just the Facts
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Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[Steve Litt]

On Fri, 28 Aug 2015 16:47:18 +0100
Dave Turner dave_t_tur...@barradas.free-online.co.uk wrote:

 I always thought su was the wrong way to go about things.
 Give me sudo every time.

How much stuff do you want to put in sudoers? You really want to do
what Ubuntu does?

 (there are assorted long discussions about su vs sudo out there on
 the interweb, let's not repeat them here!)

 Just be glad we still have a choice!

That's really the crux of it, isn't it. Whether we have a choice.
Whether we have the right to say hey, with my use case, I want to use
sudo! The systemd cabal is trying to take that away.

Using my desktop, today I ran a program in lxterminal, and it failed
for lack of root. No problem, I ran it with sudo, and that failed
because the program wasn't in sudoers. No problem, I did su -c program
name with arguments and bang, it got done. I sure like that ability,
and I'd sure miss it when it's gone. I use it every day.

Sometimes I need a root xterm. Now my mama didn't raise no fool, I run
X as slitt, not as root. So when I need a root xterm, I run xterm, then
run su -. No problem. For now. But Red Hat's working to make it a
problem.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
August 2015 featured book: Troubleshooting: Just the Facts
http://www.troubleshooters.com/tjust
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Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[Steve Litt]

On Sun, 30 Aug 2015 13:39:28 +0100
Rainer Weikusat rainerweiku...@virginmedia.com wrote:

 Steve Litt sl...@troubleshooters.com writes:
 
  On Sun, 30 Aug 2015 02:20:41 +0200
  Laurent Bercot ska-de...@skarnet.org wrote:
 
  On 29/08/2015 23:11, Steve Litt wrote:
   in my LUG, the most pro-systemd guys are the mega-metal admins
   administering hundreds of boxes with hundreds of Docker
   containers. These guys are telling me systemd is necessary to
   efficiently manage the Dockers.
  
They're telling you that because they've been brainwashed with
  that idea, and since it's working for them, they're too lazy to try
  anything else. But they're wrong. Alpine Linux, for instance, makes
  Docker containers a breeze to use, and makes the images a lot
  smaller. Alpine is runit-based, and people have also found success
  running Docker containers under s6; systemd is very unnecessary,
  and anyone pretending it is is either ignorant or malicious.
 
  This is very good information.
 
 Something else you might want to have a look at:
 
 http://www.ibuildthecloud.com/blog/2014/12/03/is-docker-fundamentally-flawed

Very nice!


SteveT

Steve Litt 
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Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[Laurent Bercot]

On 30/08/2015 20:54, Steve Litt wrote:

http://www.ibuildthecloud.com/blog/2014/12/03/is-docker-fundamentally-flawed

Very nice!


 Note that the article is about the containers' *host*.
When people talk about making systemd work with containers,
they're usually meaning running systemd *in* the containers,
i.e. they're talking about the containers' *guests*.

 Guests are the interesting case, because they're the
production images, and that's what people want to make as
smooth-sailing, and (if possible) small, as possible. That's
what we focused on with the s6-overlay project, for instance.

 I had, naively, never thought that running the Docker
daemon under a systemd host would be problematic. It's just a
daemon, and systemd can run them, right ? Ha, ha, it would be
too simple.
 The article stupefied me: because the Docker daemon does not
conform to systemd's model, it is fundamentally flawed ?
And they have the balls to ask docker to change models,
because *only* systemd is supposed to handle cgroups ?

 They never wonder whether the problem wouldn't, by chance,
come from systemd, that insists on being a global registry
of everything on the host and on controlling everything,
not allowing daemons to do their own thing. No, systemd is
perfect, and the problem obviously comes from Docker.

 The nerve, hubris and total lack of shame of these people is
baffling. And what's even more mind-boggling is that a large
part of the community welcomes that attitude with open arms.

--
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Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[Nate Bargmann]

* On 2015 30 Aug 02:27 -0500, Steve Litt wrote:
 You know why, Nate. You were on Debian-User in the bad old days. Back
 in the day, how many times did I get called a conspiracy theorist for
 answering that question.
 
 Three words:
 
 1. Follow
 2. the
 3. money.

Sigh, yes, I know.  I'm still subscribed to the list and, sadly,
legitimate concerns are labeled as trolls.  Such behavior tells me
that there are some very deep misgivings about the technical superiority
of systemd.  People having legitimate concerns over the new systemd/udev
enforced network interface naming convention (which seems to happen only
on a new install of Stretch at this point) were summarily dismissed.  It
still baffles me why eth0 is no longer good enough.  Anyone
expressing doubt over the new direction seems dismissed as a troll even
when questioning in good faith.

What no one has made clear in this thread, nor in the one on D-U is will
this new systemd functionality require the removal of su or the login
package from the repository?

- Nate

-- 

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Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[Rainer Weikusat]

Steve Litt sl...@troubleshooters.com writes:

 On Sun, 30 Aug 2015 02:20:41 +0200
 Laurent Bercot ska-de...@skarnet.org wrote:

 On 29/08/2015 23:11, Steve Litt wrote:
  in my LUG, the most pro-systemd guys are the mega-metal admins
  administering hundreds of boxes with hundreds of Docker containers.
  These guys are telling me systemd is necessary to efficiently manage
  the Dockers.
 
   They're telling you that because they've been brainwashed with that
 idea, and since it's working for them, they're too lazy to try
 anything else. But they're wrong. Alpine Linux, for instance, makes
 Docker containers a breeze to use, and makes the images a lot smaller.
   Alpine is runit-based, and people have also found success running
 Docker containers under s6; systemd is very unnecessary, and anyone
 pretending it is is either ignorant or malicious.

 This is very good information.

Something else you might want to have a look at:

http://www.ibuildthecloud.com/blog/2014/12/03/is-docker-fundamentally-flawed
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Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[Rainer Weikusat]

Laurent Bercot ska-de...@skarnet.org writes:
 On 29/08/2015 14:43, Rainer Weikusat wrote:
 'su' is not a concept, it's a program.

  grumble Okay, let's clarify.
  A program is the implementation of an idea. The idea is often
 unwritten or unspoken, or forgotten, and people will only refer
 to the implementation; but good design always starts with the idea,
 the concept, of what the program is supposed to do.

  When Lennart says su is a broken concept, he's saying the
 concept behind the su program is not clear or well-defined, and
 it was not a good idea to implement it;

I completely understand that Poettering prefers to write something like
su is a broken concept when he really means What this program does is
not what I'd like it to do and I'd like it to do things it doesn't do
and since it wasn't written by me, it's not working in the way it had
worked had I written the code. But broken concept doesn't really make
any sense: Since ideas don't work, they can't be 'broken', ie not or no
longer capable of working.

su is a program supposed to be installed setuid-0 and what it basically
does is

setuid(geteuid());
execlp(/bin/sh, sh, (void *)0);

ie, it gets rid of any traces of the uid associated with the process
which invoked it and then replaces itself with a shell. In the usual way,
it then kept accumulating other features related to this simple task
which helped other people to get certain things done. It's (AFAIK) no
longer in active development, hence, the current feature set faithfully
mirrors whatever some people considered useful in the early 1990s. In
itself, this is a not a problem, it just means that su is more useful
for certain tasks and less useful for others. The program is certainly
not 'broken', either, as this would mean the documented behaviour and
the actual behaviour differ in unintended ways.

Considering that 'concepts' can't be broken and that the program isn't
broken, the statement is actually pure posturing devoid of any meaning:
A somewhat technically sounding way to express I don't care, bugger
off.

[...]

 As you're saying, the correct design is to separate the tasks
 that the su program accomplishes, if one doesn't need a full-
 environment root shell.

I wouldn't calls this the correct design: It's a design I consider
advantageous because it avoids a situation where a certain program
'organically' acquires some odd feature set which can't be changed in
incompatible ways without affecting existing users and hence basically
turns into a development dead-end.

  But if a full-environment root shell is needed, logging in as
 root works. That's exactly what the login _concept_ is.

I'm not aware of any formal definition of full-environment root shell
beyond what the result of logging in as root by interacting with the
following programs ..., ... and ... in the following way ...,
... happens to be. And I don't think such a formal definition would be
useful. OTOH, executing 'the shell of some user' such that it considers
itself a login shell, ie, processes the startup files such a shell is
supposed to process is useful just not a panacea.

Another tinygram doing that:

-
#include pwd.h
#include stdio.h
#include stdlib.h
#include string.h
#include unistd.h

#define DEFAULT_SHELL   /bin/sh

static char *get_shell(void)
{
struct passwd *pwd;
char *shell;

shell = getenv(SHELL);
if (shell  *shell) return shell;

pwd = getpwuid(getuid());
if (pwd  *pwd-pw_shell) return pwd-pw_shell;

return DEFAULT_SHELL;
}

static char *get_shell_name(char *shell)
{
char *p0, *p1, *name;

p0 = p1 = shell;
while (*p1) {
if (*p1 == '/') p0 = p1 + 1;
++p1;
}

if (!*p0) {
fprintf(stderr, Don't know what to make of '%s'\n,
shell);
exit(1);
}

name = sbrk((p1 - p0) + 2);
if (!name) {
perror(sbrk);
exit(1);
}

*name = '-';
strcpy(name + 1, p0);

return name;
}

int main(void)
{
char *shell, *name;

shell = get_shell();
name = get_shell_name(shell);
execl(shell, name, (void *)0);

perror(execl);
return 1;
}
--

Invoking this via sudo will result in an 'interactive' root login shell
insofar the shell itself is concerned.
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Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[Steve Litt]

On Sun, 30 Aug 2015 16:20:15 -0400
Clarke Sideroad clarke.sider...@gmail.com wrote:

 It seems to me that with so much in common GNU/Linux or UNIX use that 
 was so deeply flawed, he/Redhat would have been further ahead to just 
 fork off and create Poettericks or or Poetterdows.

No, because in a head to head showdown where people could alternate
between Linux and PoetterGlom, in a year or two Linux would have won on
technical merits. They had to wreck Linux before they could proceed
with their plan.

 
 I guess the problem with heading in that direction would have be the 
 lack of recognition, his project/operating system seems to have taken 
 advantage of a well established name, Linux and managed to Hijack a 
 large proportion of the userbase. a rather astute strategic and 
 political move when you look at it that way.

But ask, why does Redhat pay him for this. Redhat can't make money
consulting a simple OS that any admin can admin.

Follow the money.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
August 2015 featured book: Troubleshooting: Just the Facts
http://www.troubleshooters.com/tjust
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Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[Nate Bargmann]

And all along I thought a dock had to do with a place to put program
icons on a desktop and that docker was a tool to handle it.  I've
ignored everything about virtual machines except for Virtual Box and
QEMU.

Evidently, I now have to know that a container is a virtual machine.
Or is it?  Seems like more buzz words for buzz words sake.

- Nate

-- 

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Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[Edward Bartolo]

This is heartbreaking rather than a show. Replace everything that used
to work reliably for so many years with what clueless beginners want!

The plague has come, but not in the form of a deadly bacterium, but in
the new trend of, sacrificing function for fashion.

On 29/08/2015, Rainer Weikusat rainerweiku...@virginmedia.com wrote:
 Matteo Panella m.pane...@level28.org writes:
 On 28/08/2015 17:32, Laurent Bercot wrote:
 On 28/08/2015 17:00, Michael Bütow wrote:
 https://tlhp.cf/lennart-poettering-su/

  The thing is, he's not entirely wrong: su *is*, really, a
 broken concept.

 On a desktop system with current constraints (XDG env vars, X11
 sockets...) I'd agree, but that's hardly su's fault.

 On a server, tough, it just does its job nicely (unless you need strict
 audit of root-level actions, in which case sudo with a MAC system should
 be your starting point).

 'su' is a somewhat generic setuid-0 program: It changes the uid and the
 gids associated with itself to the ones for a certain user and then
 executes a shell. In addition to that, it contains another random
 environment munger with features someone happend to consider useful for
 the su use cases he envisioned. If this happens to be what enables
 someone else to achieve something he wanted to achieve, 'su' can
 obviously be used for that. If not, then not. But the reason why su is
 only of limited usefulness is not because the hardcoded policy isn't
 complicated enough to include

 $random_thing_someone_called_lennart_also_wants

 for every conceivable value of the variable but because it has a
 hardcoded policy at all and the solution is not implement another,
 random environment munger more to tastes of ... but split it apart:
 Have a program which changes uids and gids and executes another
 program. Another program for the become root via setuid and execute
 ... part. And a third program (or any number of such programs) to
 perform other modifications of the execution environment.
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Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[Rainer Weikusat]

Laurent Bercot ska-de...@skarnet.org writes:

 On 28/08/2015 17:00, Michael Bütow wrote:
 https://tlhp.cf/lennart-poettering-su/

  The thing is, he's not entirely wrong: su *is*, really, a
 broken concept.

'su' is not a concept, it's a program. This means one can use it to
accomplish what it was written to do. And one can't use it to accomplish
what it doesn't support. If something su doesn't support has to be done,
and there's no other reasonable way to accomplish it, code will need to
be written to implement the desired behaviour.

Now, is

1. Build systems suck and git isn't exactly the greatest tool on the
   planet for working with more than one source tree, so lets add the
   code we want to write to systemd

2. goto 1

a concept?

[SCNR]
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Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[Rainer Weikusat]

Matteo Panella m.pane...@level28.org writes:
 On 28/08/2015 17:32, Laurent Bercot wrote:
 On 28/08/2015 17:00, Michael Bütow wrote:
 https://tlhp.cf/lennart-poettering-su/
 
  The thing is, he's not entirely wrong: su *is*, really, a
 broken concept.

 On a desktop system with current constraints (XDG env vars, X11
 sockets...) I'd agree, but that's hardly su's fault.

 On a server, tough, it just does its job nicely (unless you need strict
 audit of root-level actions, in which case sudo with a MAC system should
 be your starting point).

'su' is a somewhat generic setuid-0 program: It changes the uid and the
gids associated with itself to the ones for a certain user and then
executes a shell. In addition to that, it contains another random
environment munger with features someone happend to consider useful for
the su use cases he envisioned. If this happens to be what enables
someone else to achieve something he wanted to achieve, 'su' can
obviously be used for that. If not, then not. But the reason why su is
only of limited usefulness is not because the hardcoded policy isn't
complicated enough to include

$random_thing_someone_called_lennart_also_wants

for every conceivable value of the variable but because it has a
hardcoded policy at all and the solution is not implement another,
random environment munger more to tastes of ... but split it apart:
Have a program which changes uids and gids and executes another
program. Another program for the become root via setuid and execute
... part. And a third program (or any number of such programs) to
perform other modifications of the execution environment.
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Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[Matteo Panella]

On 28/08/2015 17:32, Laurent Bercot wrote:
 On 28/08/2015 17:00, Michael Bütow wrote:
 https://tlhp.cf/lennart-poettering-su/
 
  The thing is, he's not entirely wrong: su *is*, really, a
 broken concept.

On a desktop system with current constraints (XDG env vars, X11
sockets...) I'd agree, but that's hardly su's fault.

On a server, tough, it just does its job nicely (unless you need strict
audit of root-level actions, in which case sudo with a MAC system should
be your starting point).

So much noise (and security-critical code) for nothing.
-- 
Matteo Panella



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Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[Hendrik Boom]

On Sat, Aug 29, 2015 at 05:14:50PM +0200, poitr pogo wrote:
...
 So let them build desktop oriented linux, and let us focus on the
 server oriented version.

I'm completely happy with devuan as a desktop system.  Plaeas don't 
abandon the desktop. 

-- hendrik
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Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[Go Linux]

On Sat, 8/29/15, poitr pogo lepo...@gmail.com wrote:

 Subject: Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into 
systemd on Fedora Rawhide
 To: dng dng@lists.dyne.org
 Date: Saturday, August 29, 2015, 10:14 AM

 
 So let them build desktop oriented linux, and let us focus on the
 server oriented version.
 



G . . . How about a systemd-free Linux that can be the base for server or 
desktop use . . .

golinux


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Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[jfmxl]

It's the NSA. Sneaking binary logs into linux and so forth. Taking over 
the system. Redhat's corporate and just down the pike from Fort Meade. 
Lennart's a mole.


Seems obvious to me, anyway.

On 2015-08-29 22:14, poitr pogo wrote:

Hi,

On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 5:00 PM, Michael Bütow mbu...@houtbay.com 
wrote:

Article here:

https://tlhp.cf/lennart-poettering-su/

I for one look forward to not having any of this madness one day when 
I

transition completely to Devuan!




This is rather good news, as this is extension to systemd not to su.

As systemd is it's own echosystem of some kind, with all that new
session/terminal/process  management using cgroups, etc. it is natural
that it needs su-like feature, which will handle all this systemd
internals properly.
IMHO systemd is some kind of  an android like layer between kernel and
desktop applications, providing it's own api/libraties/sdk.
I bet gnome will became a GUI part of systemd at some point. With API
allowing building linux based applications using html5 :D
It would be perfect if it develops own tools (like this one) instead
of modifying the existing ones.

So let them build desktop oriented linux, and let us focus on the
server oriented version.

regards
piotr
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Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[Rowland Penny]

On 29/08/15 17:50, Rainer Weikusat wrote:

Tobias Hunger tobias.hun...@gmail.com writes:

On Sat, Aug 29, 2015 at 3:48 PM, Rainer Weikusat
rainerweiku...@virginmedia.com wrote:

'su' is a somewhat generic setuid-0 program: It changes the uid and the
gids associated with itself to the ones for a certain user and then
executes a shell. In addition to that, it contains another random
environment munger with features someone happend to consider useful for
the su use cases he envisioned. If this happens to be what enables
someone else to achieve something he wanted to achieve, 'su' can
obviously be used for that. If not, then not. But the reason why su is
only of limited usefulness is not because the hardcoded policy isn't
complicated enough to include

$random_thing_someone_called_lennart_also_wants

for every conceivable value of the variable but because it has a
hardcoded policy at all and the solution is not implement another,
random environment munger more to tastes of ... but split it apart:

That is exactly what systemd implemented:

No, that's not exactly what systemd implemented, as


The uid/gid gets changed and then you get exactly the same environment
that gets set up for you during login.

and I wasn't writing about emulating/ simulating a login environment
(BTW, what's that?) for the sake of doing so. Pretty much the opposite,
actually: Instead of a new and improved hard-coded policy someone
associated with the 'shadow password suite' happened to dream up, get
rid of the policy altogether.


Have a program which changes uids and gids and executes another
program. Another program for the become root via setuid and execute
... part. And a third program (or any number of such programs) to
perform other modifications of the execution environment.

So you have to worry about users sneaking in a muncher (e.g. by
manipulating PATH, LD_PRELOAD or whatnot) that will be run with the
new uid/gid and can attack the user and system to its hearts content.

*If* manipulating the environment (here supposed to refer to what
environ points to) in a certain way is considered necessary, programs
doing that can be employed, eg (I didn't need these two particular tools
so far so this is sort-of a demo):

--- kill-env.c -
#include unistd.h
#include stdio.h

extern char **environ;

int main(int argc,  char **argv)
{
 environ = NULL;
 execv(argv[1], argv + 1);

 perror(execv);
 return 1;
}


 set-path.c 
#include stdio.h
#include stdlib.h
#include unistd.h

int main(int argc, char **argv)
{
 int rc;

 rc = setenv(PATH, argv[1], 1);
 if (rc == -1) {
perror(setenv);
exit(1);
 }

 execvp(argv[2], argv + 2);

 perror(execv);
 return 1;
}


Assuming both programs have been compiled into binaries named in the
indicated way and reside in the current directory, they could be used
like this:

[rw@doppelsaurus]/tmp#./kill-env ./set-path /usr/bin env
PATH=/usr/bin

A real 'environment initialization program' should probably support
reading the environment from a file and another which interprets some of
its arguments as name-value pairs could be useful, too. A complete command
could then look like this:

/bin/replace-env /etc/daemon-env set-env USER blafasel TERM vt100 -- env

NB: This approach is not intended to be convenient for interactive use, it
should just also enable that. It's supposed to enable creating complex
'process startup commands' by combining simple parts.

NB^2: I'm also absolutely not concerned with fork and exec overhead
unless there's an actual use case I need to handle where it demonstrably
makes a relevant difference.
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Hi Rainer, do you know that you are feeding a troll ? 
tobias.hun...@gmail.com appears to be a systemd developer



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Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[KatolaZ]

On Sat, Aug 29, 2015 at 04:38:33PM +0200, Laurent Bercot wrote:
 On 29/08/2015 14:43, Rainer Weikusat wrote:
 'su' is not a concept, it's a program.
 
  grumble Okay, let's clarify.
  A program is the implementation of an idea. The idea is often
 unwritten or unspoken, or forgotten, and people will only refer
 to the implementation; but good design always starts with the idea,
 the concept, of what the program is supposed to do.
 
  When Lennart says su is a broken concept, he's saying the
 concept behind the su program is not clear or well-defined, and
 it was not a good idea to implement it; and I agree with that.
 (Then he naturally branches onto his NIH obsession and decides
 that UNIX is bad and systemd must reinvent everything, which I
 obviously disagree with.)

Well, I wouldn't say that su is a broken concept on its own. In
assessing the quality of ideas and software one should always take
into account the motivations which led to a certain solution.

su appeared in ATT Unix Version 1:

  http://man.cat-v.org/unix-1st/1/su

and by reading the original manpage one realises that the rationale
for having such a command was quite understandable and sound: if you
alredy have a working session (and you are behind a teletype), and you
want to execute a few commands as root, there is no reason to logout,
login as root, execute the command, logout from root, login again on
your account. Nowadays it might seem to somebody a broken concept, but
that's just because they have in mind a different use case. And they
want to do more than su with something like su. After all, pens did
not become a broken concept when typewriters were invented...

The fact that we have gone a bit further than that with su, asking it
to do things it was not conceived for, is our problem, not su's one.
The solution proposed by systemd is (as usual) against the original
principles behind unix, since from the interface:

  $ machinectl shell (16 characters)
  $ su (2 characters)

Yes, they will say that with the former command you can do better,
smarter and more marvellous things, but if you just need to become
root to install one package, you would probably be better off with su
anyway.

HND

KatolaZ

-- 
[ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ]
[ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ]
[ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ]
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Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[Laurent Bercot]

On 29/08/2015 14:43, Rainer Weikusat wrote:

'su' is not a concept, it's a program.


 grumble Okay, let's clarify.
 A program is the implementation of an idea. The idea is often
unwritten or unspoken, or forgotten, and people will only refer
to the implementation; but good design always starts with the idea,
the concept, of what the program is supposed to do.

 When Lennart says su is a broken concept, he's saying the
concept behind the su program is not clear or well-defined, and
it was not a good idea to implement it; and I agree with that.
(Then he naturally branches onto his NIH obsession and decides
that UNIX is bad and systemd must reinvent everything, which I
obviously disagree with.)

 As you're saying, the correct design is to separate the tasks
that the su program accomplishes, if one doesn't need a full-
environment root shell.
 But if a full-environment root shell is needed, logging in as
root works. That's exactly what the login _concept_ is.



Now, is

1. Build systems suck and git isn't exactly the greatest tool on the
planet for working with more than one source tree, so lets add the
code we want to write to systemd

2. goto 1

a concept?


 Of course it is! I'm surprised systemd-versioncontrol isn't a thing yet. XD

--
 Laurent

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Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[Ron]

On Sat, 29 Aug 2015 15:03:00 +0100
Edward Bartolo edb...@gmail.com wrote:

 The plague has come, but not in the form of a deadly bacterium, but in
 the new trend of, sacrificing function for fashion.

Or the megalomaniac We are Systemd of Borg, resistance is futile...
 
Cheers,
 
Ron.
-- 
One should always be in love.
  That is the reason one should never marry.
  -- Oscar Wilde

   -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org --
 

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Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[poitr pogo]

Hi,

On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 5:00 PM, Michael Bütow mbu...@houtbay.com wrote:
 Article here:

 https://tlhp.cf/lennart-poettering-su/

 I for one look forward to not having any of this madness one day when I
 transition completely to Devuan!



This is rather good news, as this is extension to systemd not to su.

As systemd is it's own echosystem of some kind, with all that new
session/terminal/process  management using cgroups, etc. it is natural
that it needs su-like feature, which will handle all this systemd
internals properly.
IMHO systemd is some kind of  an android like layer between kernel and
desktop applications, providing it's own api/libraties/sdk.
I bet gnome will became a GUI part of systemd at some point. With API
allowing building linux based applications using html5 :D
It would be perfect if it develops own tools (like this one) instead
of modifying the existing ones.

So let them build desktop oriented linux, and let us focus on the
server oriented version.

regards
piotr
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Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[fsmithred]

On 08/28/2015 11:00 AM, Michael Bütow wrote:
 Article here:
 
 https://tlhp.cf/lennart-poettering-su/
 
 I for one look forward to not having any of this madness one day when I
 transition completely to Devuan!
 



su -- machinectl shell

Obviously, too many people were getting root too easily. This should slow
them down.


--setenv=SYSTEMD_TEST=777

That's a slightly disturbing choice for an example value, given the
context. What was on his mind?

fsr

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Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[Tobias Hunger]

Hi Rainer,

On Sat, Aug 29, 2015 at 3:48 PM, Rainer Weikusat
rainerweiku...@virginmedia.com wrote:
 'su' is a somewhat generic setuid-0 program: It changes the uid and the
 gids associated with itself to the ones for a certain user and then
 executes a shell. In addition to that, it contains another random
 environment munger with features someone happend to consider useful for
 the su use cases he envisioned. If this happens to be what enables
 someone else to achieve something he wanted to achieve, 'su' can
 obviously be used for that. If not, then not. But the reason why su is
 only of limited usefulness is not because the hardcoded policy isn't
 complicated enough to include

 $random_thing_someone_called_lennart_also_wants

 for every conceivable value of the variable but because it has a
 hardcoded policy at all and the solution is not implement another,
 random environment munger more to tastes of ... but split it apart:

That is exactly what systemd implemented: The uid/gid gets changed and
then you get exactly the same environment that gets set up for you
during login. Nothing is merged, no munching of anything is happening
anymore.

 Have a program which changes uids and gids and executes another
 program. Another program for the become root via setuid and execute
 ... part. And a third program (or any number of such programs) to
 perform other modifications of the execution environment.

So you have to worry about users sneaking in a muncher (e.g. by
manipulating PATH, LD_PRELOAD or whatnot) that will be run with the
new uid/gid and can attack the user and system to its hearts content.
Very bad idea. Some things are not as dynamic as they could be for a
reason.

Best Regards,
Tobias
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Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[Rainer Weikusat]

Tobias Hunger tobias.hun...@gmail.com writes:
 On Sat, Aug 29, 2015 at 3:48 PM, Rainer Weikusat
 rainerweiku...@virginmedia.com wrote:
 'su' is a somewhat generic setuid-0 program: It changes the uid and the
 gids associated with itself to the ones for a certain user and then
 executes a shell. In addition to that, it contains another random
 environment munger with features someone happend to consider useful for
 the su use cases he envisioned. If this happens to be what enables
 someone else to achieve something he wanted to achieve, 'su' can
 obviously be used for that. If not, then not. But the reason why su is
 only of limited usefulness is not because the hardcoded policy isn't
 complicated enough to include

 $random_thing_someone_called_lennart_also_wants

 for every conceivable value of the variable but because it has a
 hardcoded policy at all and the solution is not implement another,
 random environment munger more to tastes of ... but split it apart:

 That is exactly what systemd implemented:

No, that's not exactly what systemd implemented, as 

 The uid/gid gets changed and then you get exactly the same environment
 that gets set up for you during login.

and I wasn't writing about emulating/ simulating a login environment
(BTW, what's that?) for the sake of doing so. Pretty much the opposite,
actually: Instead of a new and improved hard-coded policy someone
associated with the 'shadow password suite' happened to dream up, get
rid of the policy altogether. 

 Have a program which changes uids and gids and executes another
 program. Another program for the become root via setuid and execute
 ... part. And a third program (or any number of such programs) to
 perform other modifications of the execution environment.

 So you have to worry about users sneaking in a muncher (e.g. by
 manipulating PATH, LD_PRELOAD or whatnot) that will be run with the
 new uid/gid and can attack the user and system to its hearts content.

*If* manipulating the environment (here supposed to refer to what
environ points to) in a certain way is considered necessary, programs
doing that can be employed, eg (I didn't need these two particular tools
so far so this is sort-of a demo):

--- kill-env.c -
#include unistd.h
#include stdio.h

extern char **environ;

int main(int argc,  char **argv)
{
environ = NULL;
execv(argv[1], argv + 1);

perror(execv);
return 1;
}


 set-path.c 
#include stdio.h
#include stdlib.h
#include unistd.h

int main(int argc, char **argv)
{
int rc;

rc = setenv(PATH, argv[1], 1);
if (rc == -1) {
perror(setenv);
exit(1);
}

execvp(argv[2], argv + 2);

perror(execv);
return 1;
}


Assuming both programs have been compiled into binaries named in the
indicated way and reside in the current directory, they could be used
like this:

[rw@doppelsaurus]/tmp#./kill-env ./set-path /usr/bin env
PATH=/usr/bin

A real 'environment initialization program' should probably support
reading the environment from a file and another which interprets some of
its arguments as name-value pairs could be useful, too. A complete command
could then look like this:

/bin/replace-env /etc/daemon-env set-env USER blafasel TERM vt100 -- env

NB: This approach is not intended to be convenient for interactive use, it
should just also enable that. It's supposed to enable creating complex
'process startup commands' by combining simple parts.

NB^2: I'm also absolutely not concerned with fork and exec overhead
unless there's an actual use case I need to handle where it demonstrably
makes a relevant difference.
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Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[Steve Litt]

On Sat, 29 Aug 2015 08:22:23 -0700
Go Linux goli...@yahoo.com wrote:

 On Sat, 8/29/15, poitr pogo lepo...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  Subject: Re: [DNG]   The show goes on: “su” command replacement
 merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide To: dng dng@lists.dyne.org
  Date: Saturday, August 29, 2015, 10:14 AM
 
  
  So let them build desktop oriented linux, and let us focus on the
  server oriented version.
  
 
 
 
 G . . . How about a systemd-free Linux that can be the base for
 server or desktop use . . .
 
 golinux

Yeah, that isn't a problem, and shouldn't be a problem. Interestingly,
in my LUG, the most pro-systemd guys are the mega-metal admins
administering hundreds of boxes with hundreds of Docker containers.
These guys are telling me systemd is necessary to efficiently manage
the Dockers. Yeah, whatever, give me the budget Redhat gave the systemd
cabal, so I can hire good programmers, and I'll make it work
efficiently without breaking Linux and entangling everything.

Back to sane desktop linux, basically, we could run a panel with
Openbox, and if either Openbox or the panel get poetterized, we can
fork.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
August 2015 featured book: Troubleshooting: Just the Facts
http://www.troubleshooters.com/tjust
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Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[Steve Litt]

On Sat, 29 Aug 2015 17:45:01 +0200
Tobias Hunger tobias.hun...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hi Rainer,
 
 On Sat, Aug 29, 2015 at 3:48 PM, Rainer Weikusat
 rainerweiku...@virginmedia.com wrote:
  If not, then not. But
  the reason why su is only of limited usefulness is not because the
  hardcoded policy isn't complicated enough to include
 
  $random_thing_someone_called_lennart_also_wants
 
  for every conceivable value of the variable but because it has a
  hardcoded policy at all and the solution is not implement another,
  random environment munger more to tastes of ... but split it apart:
 
 That is exactly what systemd implemented: The uid/gid gets changed and
 then you get exactly the same environment that gets set up for you
 during login. Nothing is merged, no munching of anything is happening
 anymore.

[snip]

 
 So you have to worry about users sneaking in a muncher (e.g. by
 manipulating PATH, LD_PRELOAD or whatnot) that will be run with the
 new uid/gid and can attack the user and system to its hearts content.
 Very bad idea. Some things are not as dynamic as they could be for a
 reason.

Regardless of all this theoretical stuff, su works beautifully in some
peoples' use cases. If the Redhats want to make a parallel thing, fine.
But don't contaminate su, and don't fix it so programs that used to
work with su now only work with PoetterPermissions or whatever it's
called.

It's called halloween code for a reason.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
August 2015 featured book: Troubleshooting: Just the Facts
http://www.troubleshooters.com/tjust
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Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[Steve Litt]

On Sat, 29 Aug 2015 20:34:29 +0200
Laurent Bercot ska-de...@skarnet.org wrote:


   Oh, I'm not blaming some abstract entity called su. When I say
 that su is not good (anymore), it's obviously on us.
   There's a reason why I have written programs performing privilege
 gain without bit s executables. ;)
 

Now let me ask you this Laurent. Your programs performing privilege
gain without bit s executables: Did you tie them into the init system?
Did you tie them into (not allow them to be called from, but tie them
into) lots of other executables? Does the system break if someone
replaces your execuables with (almost) equivalents?

Didn't think so, and that's the whole point.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
August 2015 featured book: Troubleshooting: Just the Facts
http://www.troubleshooters.com/tjust
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Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[Steve Litt]

On Sat, 29 Aug 2015 15:20:01 -0500
Nate Bargmann n...@n0nb.us wrote:

 * On 2015 29 Aug 10:15 -0500, poitr pogo wrote:
  So let them build desktop oriented linux, and let us focus on the
  server oriented version.
 
 I'll add my voice to the chorus objecting to the idea that removal of
 systemd is for servers only.  

So will I. Bad architecture is something I don't want on my
possessions, whether server, desktop or sewing machine. Because unlike
the chumps shelling out money for Red Hat support, I fix my own stuff.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
August 2015 featured book: Troubleshooting: Just the Facts
http://www.troubleshooters.com/tjust
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Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[Tobias Hunger]

Hi Jaromil,

On Sat, Aug 29, 2015 at 9:32 PM, Jaromil jaro...@dyne.org wrote:
Hi Rainer, do you know that you are feeding a troll ?
tobias.hun...@gmail.com appears to be a systemd developer

I tend to send patches to open source projects that I get into contact
with. It is a really annoying habit I picked up in that free software
scene you might have heard of before.

Yes, I have a hand full of tiny patches in systemd. Got a few more in
firefox and a couple other places, but would still not call myself a
mozilla developer.

 if that is even a legitimate account,

Yes.

Did we get to the point where we need fake emails to follow up on free
software projects now?

 is he getting paid for his time spent here?

Sure, I am going to buy a new villa with the millions of euros I make
following a bunch of nerds doing yet another Linux distribution! Can
you recommend a nice place with enough room to mount a 16t mind
control ray on the roof?

 I find it disturbing. systemd has plenty of avenues for propaganda in Linux 
 related tradeshows and some very insisting, annoying and intrusive sorts of 
 door-to-door sales people like Tobias.

Seriously? I was answering to a direct technical question on systemd
raised on this very list.

 perhaps it should be more clear that they are not welcome here, especially if 
 they look for another space to lecture on how systemd works better than other 
 lesser init systems.

I personally try to understand code that I am going to remove from the
projects I work on and for that reason I am happy to have some people
around that actually are willing and able to answer questions on that
code.

If you prefer to muck around in the dark here, then I will heed that
wish and lurk only.

Best Regards,
Tobias
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Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[Tobias Hunger]

Hi Jaromil,

actually I was not replying to a technical question on systemd, that
was my other mail to the question of tilt! I replied to earlier.

You are right in that I should have known better than to get into this
thread. A bad case of https://xkcd.com/386/ :-)

Sorry, and now going to lurk-mode in earnest;-)

Best Regards,
Tobias

On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 12:31 AM, Tobias Hunger tobias.hun...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hi Jaromil,

 On Sat, Aug 29, 2015 at 9:32 PM, Jaromil jaro...@dyne.org wrote:
Hi Rainer, do you know that you are feeding a troll ?
tobias.hun...@gmail.com appears to be a systemd developer

 I tend to send patches to open source projects that I get into contact
 with. It is a really annoying habit I picked up in that free software
 scene you might have heard of before.

 Yes, I have a hand full of tiny patches in systemd. Got a few more in
 firefox and a couple other places, but would still not call myself a
 mozilla developer.

 if that is even a legitimate account,

 Yes.

 Did we get to the point where we need fake emails to follow up on free
 software projects now?

 is he getting paid for his time spent here?

 Sure, I am going to buy a new villa with the millions of euros I make
 following a bunch of nerds doing yet another Linux distribution! Can
 you recommend a nice place with enough room to mount a 16t mind
 control ray on the roof?

 I find it disturbing. systemd has plenty of avenues for propaganda in Linux 
 related tradeshows and some very insisting, annoying and intrusive sorts of 
 door-to-door sales people like Tobias.

 Seriously? I was answering to a direct technical question on systemd
 raised on this very list.

 perhaps it should be more clear that they are not welcome here, especially 
 if they look for another space to lecture on how systemd works better than 
 other lesser init systems.

 I personally try to understand code that I am going to remove from the
 projects I work on and for that reason I am happy to have some people
 around that actually are willing and able to answer questions on that
 code.

 If you prefer to muck around in the dark here, then I will heed that
 wish and lurk only.

 Best Regards,
 Tobias
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Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[Nate Bargmann]

* On 2015 29 Aug 16:14 -0500, Steve Litt wrote:

 Yeah, that isn't a problem, and shouldn't be a problem. Interestingly,
 in my LUG, the most pro-systemd guys are the mega-metal admins
 administering hundreds of boxes with hundreds of Docker containers.
 These guys are telling me systemd is necessary to efficiently manage
 the Dockers.

Okay, then the big official unanswered question is why don't RH,
et. al. just target that use case and leave the rest of us alone?  Why
does the rest of the ecosystem need this big sucking sound?

It's one thing to develop a tool that makes life easier in some case and
quite another to preach that it's needed *everywhere* and pull in the
gullible with influence that then dictate this shiny thing is to be
valued above all else.

- Nate

-- 

The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this is true.

Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us
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Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[Laurent Bercot]

On 29/08/2015 20:10, KatolaZ wrote:

Well, I wouldn't say that su is a broken concept on its own. In
assessing the quality of ideas and software one should always take
into account the motivations which led to a certain solution.

su appeared in ATT Unix Version 1:


 Yes. However, Unix has evolved in 40 years, sometimes in a good
way, sometimes in a not so good way. And piling on more functionality
into su wasn't exactly the best idea: from a simple privilege-gaining
tool, it mutated into something between what it was and a complete
login - it lost the clarity of concept it had at first.



The fact that we have gone a bit further than that with su, asking it
to do things it was not conceived for, is our problem, not su's one.


 Oh, I'm not blaming some abstract entity called su. When I say that
su is not good (anymore), it's obviously on us.
 There's a reason why I have written programs performing privilege gain
without bit s executables. ;)

--
 Laurent

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Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[Steve Litt]

On Sat, 29 Aug 2015 16:38:33 +0200
Laurent Bercot ska-de...@skarnet.org wrote:

 On 29/08/2015 14:43, Rainer Weikusat wrote:
  'su' is not a concept, it's a program.
 
   grumble Okay, let's clarify.
   A program is the implementation of an idea. The idea is often
 unwritten or unspoken, or forgotten, and people will only refer
 to the implementation; but good design always starts with the idea,
 the concept, of what the program is supposed to do.
 
   When Lennart says su is a broken concept, he's saying the
 concept behind the su program is not clear or well-defined, and
 it was not a good idea to implement it; and I agree with that.
 (Then he naturally branches onto his NIH obsession and decides
 that UNIX is bad and systemd must reinvent everything, which I
 obviously disagree with.)
 
   As you're saying, the correct design is to separate the tasks
 that the su program accomplishes, if one doesn't need a full-
 environment root shell.
   But if a full-environment root shell is needed, logging in as
 root works. That's exactly what the login _concept_ is.

The point is this: If su is a broken concept, write a substitute.
Publicize the substitute. Proclaim from the town square that su is
depricated. But leave su functional for those who make the choice to
use it!

SteveT

Steve Litt 
August 2015 featured book: Troubleshooting: Just the Facts
http://www.troubleshooters.com/tjust
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Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[Jaromil]

On August 29, 2015 6:54:44 PM GMT+02:00, Rowland Penny rpenny241...@gmail.com 
wrote:

Hi Rainer, do you know that you are feeding a troll ? 
tobias.hun...@gmail.com appears to be a systemd developer

if that is even a legitimate account,
is he getting paid for his time spent here?

I find it disturbing. systemd has plenty of avenues for propaganda in Linux 
related tradeshows and some very insisting, annoying and intrusive sorts of 
door-to-door sales people like Tobias.

perhaps it should be more clear that they are not welcome here, especially if 
they look for another space to lecture on how systemd works better than other 
lesser init systems.

ciao

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Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[Steve Litt]

On Sat, 29 Aug 2015 15:03:00 +0100
Edward Bartolo edb...@gmail.com wrote:

 This is heartbreaking rather than a show. Replace everything that used
 to work reliably for so many years with what clueless beginners want!
 
 The plague has come, but not in the form of a deadly bacterium, but in
 the new trend of, sacrificing function for fashion.

Speaking of which:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQAR-nx4w88

I especially like the line:

=
Eagerly persuing all the latest fads and trends
=

SteveT

Steve Litt 
August 2015 featured book: Troubleshooting: Just the Facts
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Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[tilt!]

Hi Matteo,

On 08/29/2015 02:53 PM, Matteo Panella wrote:

[...]
On a server, tough, it just does its job nicely (unless you need
strict audit of root-level actions, in which case sudo with a MAC
system should be your starting point).

So much noise (and security-critical code) for nothing.


If systemd needs an own program get me a shell for user X for their
scripts, that accomplishes a very specific setup, specific envvar
filtering and such, why not? The developers are free to create what
they want and need.

As a C programmer, i code stuff like that all the time, when i need
specific signal handling, a clean environment, fd and terminal setup...
and if i had a lot of work with it, on a bad day, I probably ranted on
some existing software in a release note as well (why can't it do
this, why do i have to code this at all, blahblah).

As a shell script programmer, i use su rarely; interactively i use
it quite often, and i have no problem with it, if i distinguish su
from su - and keep in mind when to use which.

If i personally wanted to write such a give me a shell command,
i would have different priorities, and it would do different stuff
that exactly fits they way i want to work. It would be less universal
than what su is now, and, being tested just by me, probably less
secure. Therefore i would not think of it as a replacement of the
su command, and if i published it, i would not label it as such.

Kind regards,
T.
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Re: [DNG] The show goes on: ???su??? command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[Isaac Dunham]

On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 02:20:41AM +0200, Laurent Bercot wrote:
 [snip] Alpine Linux, for instance, makes Docker
 containers a breeze to use, and makes the images a lot smaller.
  Alpine is runit-based, and people have also found success running Docker
 containers under s6; systemd is very unnecessary, and anyone pretending
 it is is either ignorant or malicious.

Correction for this:
Alpine Linux is OpenRC based.
There is some level of runit integration, but I'm pretty sure it's not
the base of the primary rc system (unless they did some *big* changes
with no discussion on either list over the last couple weeks).

HTH,
Isaac Dunham
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Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[Hendrik Boom]

On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 12:31:44AM +0200, Tobias Hunger wrote:
 Hi Jaromil,
 
 On Sat, Aug 29, 2015 at 9:32 PM, Jaromil jaro...@dyne.org wrote:
 Hi Rainer, do you know that you are feeding a troll ?
 tobias.hun...@gmail.com appears to be a systemd developer
 
 I tend to send patches to open source projects that I get into contact
 with. It is a really annoying habit I picked up in that free software
 scene you might have heard of before.
 
 Yes, I have a hand full of tiny patches in systemd. Got a few more in
 firefox and a couple other places, but would still not call myself a
 mozilla developer.

A few patches does not at troll make.

-- hendrik

 
  if that is even a legitimate account,
 
 Yes.
 
 Did we get to the point where we need fake emails to follow up on free
 software projects now?
 
  is he getting paid for his time spent here?
 
 Sure, I am going to buy a new villa with the millions of euros I make
 following a bunch of nerds doing yet another Linux distribution! Can
 you recommend a nice place with enough room to mount a 16t mind
 control ray on the roof?
 
  I find it disturbing. systemd has plenty of avenues for propaganda in Linux 
  related tradeshows and some very insisting, annoying and intrusive sorts of 
  door-to-door sales people like Tobias.
 
 Seriously? I was answering to a direct technical question on systemd
 raised on this very list.
 
  perhaps it should be more clear that they are not welcome here, especially 
  if they look for another space to lecture on how systemd works better than 
  other lesser init systems.
 
 I personally try to understand code that I am going to remove from the
 projects I work on and for that reason I am happy to have some people
 around that actually are willing and able to answer questions on that
 code.
 
 If you prefer to muck around in the dark here, then I will heed that
 wish and lurk only.
 
 Best Regards,
 Tobias
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Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[Simon Hobson]

Nate Bargmann n...@n0nb.us wrote:

 I'll add my voice to the chorus objecting to the idea that removal of
 systemd is for servers only.

I don't think anyone has suggested it's for servers only.
But, there is an argument for picking the low hanging fruit - and that means 
trying to do the easy bits first. I've not really followed it in detail, but 
from what I've read it does seem that the desktop environments have been the 
most tightly bound to systemd.
IMO it makes sense to try and get a non desktop system sorted, and then 
tackle the harder problem of getting the desktop stuff cleansed.

 Right now with Debian Jessie systemd must be installed to make the
 desktop anywhere near functional, but that is a result of packaging
 decisions by Debian ...

I don't think it's so much a packaging decision by Debian, more a case of what 
the upstream devs have done. The Debian decision was (AIUI) we don't have the 
resources to remove the crap - not a decision to add it, just a realisation 
that the project couldn't remove it with the time and resources available.
I did note some rather naive suggestions that somehow it would be possible to 
remove it later. I'd be surprised if the resources increased, and it'll be a 
lot harder to remove stuff now they've allowed packagers to add gratuitous 
systemd dependencies.

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Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[KatolaZ]

On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 12:13:43AM +0100, Simon Hobson wrote:

[cut]

 
  Right now with Debian Jessie systemd must be installed to make the
  desktop anywhere near functional, but that is a result of packaging
  decisions by Debian ...
 
 I don't think it's so much a packaging decision by Debian, more a case of 
 what the upstream devs have done. The Debian decision was (AIUI) we don't 
 have the resources to remove the crap - not a decision to add it, just a 
 realisation that the project couldn't remove it with the time and resources 
 available.

I'm sorry but it does not seem to me that the story went like you
say. Debian deliberately decided to go for systemd, at a time when no
tight systemd dependency existed anywhere in Debian. Please do not
forget that the first versions of jessie (testing) were still using
sysvinit by default, and none of the packages required systemd to be
there. 

AFAIR there was no mention about the amount of resources needed to
remove the crap as you say. There were instead specific and
identifiable responsabilities by the Debian Project Leader and by the
Technical Committee, who decided to ignore all the pressures to stay
with sysvinit that came from the userbase and from the
developers. Those decisions were not made on the basis of the amount
of work needed to contain systemd (which became really a problem
*after* Debian chose it as a default), but following an unspecified
need to go for the best technical solution available on the market.

Once systemd was declared the standard in Debian, packagers had to
adapt to the new riff and to go all-in in supporting systemd. Those
who didn't like it, resigned and moved elsewhere.

The present is crap and the future is foggy, so there is no reason at
all to mess up with the past as well...

HND

KatolaZ

-- 
[ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ]
[ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ]
[ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ]
[ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ]
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Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[Hendrik Boom]

On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 12:13:43AM +0100, Simon Hobson wrote:
 
 I don't think it's so much a packaging decision by Debian, more a case of 
 what the upstream devs have done. The Debian decision was (AIUI) we don't 
 have the resources to remove the crap - not a decision to add it, just a 
 realisation that the project couldn't remove it with the time and resources 
 available.
 I did note some rather naive suggestions that somehow it would be 
 possible to remove it later.

We're the later.

-- hendrik
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Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[Laurent Bercot]

On 29/08/2015 23:11, Steve Litt wrote:

in my LUG, the most pro-systemd guys are the mega-metal admins
administering hundreds of boxes with hundreds of Docker containers.
These guys are telling me systemd is necessary to efficiently manage
the Dockers.


 They're telling you that because they've been brainwashed with that
idea, and since it's working for them, they're too lazy to try anything
else. But they're wrong. Alpine Linux, for instance, makes Docker
containers a breeze to use, and makes the images a lot smaller.
 Alpine is runit-based, and people have also found success running Docker
containers under s6; systemd is very unnecessary, and anyone pretending
it is is either ignorant or malicious.



Yeah, whatever, give me the budget Redhat gave the systemd
cabal, so I can hire good programmers, and I'll make it work
efficiently without breaking Linux and entangling everything.


 If you have 1/10 of that budget and are hiring, I'm available
and willing to full-time this. ;)

--
 Laurent

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Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[Laurent Bercot]

On 30/08/2015 01:13, Simon Hobson wrote:

I don't think anyone has suggested it's for servers only. But, there
is an argument for picking the low hanging fruit - and that means
trying to do the easy bits first. I've not really followed it in
detail, but from what I've read it does seem that the desktop
environments have been the most tightly bound to systemd. IMO it
makes sense to try and get a non desktop system sorted, and then
tackle the harder problem of getting the desktop stuff cleansed.


 Honestly, servers are easy, and a few distros have always gone
pretty far with what they're doing with servers: Alpine Linux,
Void Linux, and many others I'm not following as closely. The
big or mainstream distributions are called that way because
they're the ones that people install on their desktops.

 I'm interested in Devuan because I view it as a replacement for
Debian, which I had on my desktop at some point. If it's about a
server, I already have lots of distributions to pick from, including
not using one in the first place.

--
 Laurent
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Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[Teodoro Santoni]

On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 05:00:56PM +0200, Michael Bütow wrote:
 Article here:
 
 https://tlhp.cf/lennart-poettering-su/
 
 I for one look forward to not having any of this madness one day when I
 transition completely to Devuan!

Motivations are legit (see sup, doas). 
Having a privilege escalation subsystem onto PID 1 is nonetheless still stupid.

--
Teodoro Santoni

Something is wrong. I don't wanna compile 20 KB of Go code to list files.
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Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[Laurent Bercot]

On 28/08/2015 17:00, Michael Bütow wrote:

https://tlhp.cf/lennart-poettering-su/


 The thing is, he's not entirely wrong: su *is*, really, a
broken concept.
 What he conveniently forgets, of course, is that having a
real root session with a separated environment, which is
what the new feature does, could already be achieved... by
logging in as root.

 Duh!

 So, this is just yet another propaganda stunt.
 su sucks. See? UNIX sucks! And now systemd can do so much
better than UNIX: it gives you real root sessions that do not
leak anything from the user environment.
 But, um, can't UNIX already do that ?...
 NO NO NO systemd does it better because insert confusing
buzzwords that will bamboozle executives and journalists

 It's been like this since day 1 of systemd, and I'm not
expecting it to change any time soon.

--
 Laurent

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Re: [DNG] The show goes on: “su” command replacement merged into systemd on Fedora Rawhide

[Dave Turner]

I always thought su was the wrong way to go about things.
Give me sudo every time.
(there are assorted long discussions about su vs sudo out there on the 
interweb, let's not repeat them here!)

Just be glad we still have a choice!

DaveT

On 28/08/15 16:32, Laurent Bercot wrote:

On 28/08/2015 17:00, Michael Bütow wrote:

https://tlhp.cf/lennart-poettering-su/


 The thing is, he's not entirely wrong: su *is*, really, a
broken concept.
 What he conveniently forgets, of course, is that having a
real root session with a separated environment, which is
what the new feature does, could already be achieved... by
logging in as root.

 Duh!

 So, this is just yet another propaganda stunt.
 su sucks. See? UNIX sucks! And now systemd can do so much
better than UNIX: it gives you real root sessions that do not
leak anything from the user environment.
 But, um, can't UNIX already do that ?...
 NO NO NO systemd does it better because insert confusing
buzzwords that will bamboozle executives and journalists

 It's been like this since day 1 of systemd, and I'm not
expecting it to change any time soon.



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