Re: [ECOLOG-L] Treatment of Ecology in AP classes
I think Emily Morgan has brought up an important issue that has mostly been ignored with regards to AP courses and college credit. While there is the danger that a student who took AP courses may not be ready for that advanced course (which if that's true they can easily drop after the first week), there is an equal danger that a student forced to retake material covered in an AP course will be very bored. I would much rather reach high and concede to take a step back than be put in a course which is not challenging. Freshman year is very important for promoting a proper attitude about learning and engagement. I can say from experience that being forced to take courses that are too easy for you in college is very damaging to academic diligence and moral. It's the professors responsibility to set the standard for the class, and if a class is too advanced for some AP students than it should be obvious to them early on so that they can take action by the end of drop/add. On Wed, Nov 23, 2011 at 8:29 AM, Emily Moran mora...@nimbios.org wrote: I took a lot of AP classes in highschool - biology, calculus, statistics, physics, etc. I also switched from AP chemistry to a chemistry course at Indiana University halfway through the year - but that was only possible because my highschool was experimenting with a semester rather than full-year system, and because I had a lot of help from my parents (who are academics) in getting me registered at IU and arguing with the highschool to arrange a study period for me at the correct time. I don't think most students would be able to make that work. Overall, the AP classes were of equivalent quality to intro university classes. The University of Michigan accepted the credits, which allowed me to move more into the more interesting and rigorous upper level classes. That was really important - if I had to repeat all those courses, I might well have gotten frustrated enough to switch to history! As it is, I took most of the ecology classes offered, as well as two genetics courses and 4 years of math, and eventually pursued a Ph.D. in ecology. And all those math and science courses enabled me to incorporate mathematical modeling and population genetics into my thesis research in ways I never would have predicted when I was a college student. As with any intro course, the benefit students get depends on how diligent they are in pursuing a subject and continuing to learn outside of class. Most of the AP students I know are quite self-motivated. However, some universities or departments may be concerned that students cpuld, for example, take their AP credit and never think about biology again. One way to avoid this would be to accept the AP credit ON THE CONDITION that students take at least one upper level course in the discipline. Emily Moran On 11/22/2011 1:24 PM, Melanie Hedgespeth wrote: It has been interesting to read the responses to this topic. Speaking from my own personal experience and having taken AP Bio in high school, I did feel that yes, the ecology portion was a bit rushed because it was towards the end of the curriculum. We had to study a bit of material on our own because we didn't have time to cover it all in class before the exam. However, we were also told by our teacher that we needed to make sure to cover our bases in all areas when studying on our own. She also suggested that the AP exam covers a lot of plant-related material and to focus on that while studying since that is where previous students hadn't done so well in the past. I felt the class in general was fine, and was successful on the AP Exam (testing out of both semesters of college intro bio). I was happy to not have to pay the tuition fees for 2 extra courses and did fine in upper-level bio courses that I went on to take. I later tutored students taking the same college intro bio course I had tested out of, so I was able to see what the course entailed. Honestly, I believe that the AP course I had taken in high school was just as intensive as what was being taught at college level. However, if I would have been required to take one semester of the intro course, I would definitely have preferred the ecology/evolution/genetics portion since that wasn't covered as much as the other areas in my circumstance. All in all, it seems very dependent on the school (in terms of high school or even college) as to what level of material the students are exposed to. Cheers, Melanie H. On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 6:14 PM, joseph gathmanjpgath...@yahoo.com wrote: Personal anecdote: While conducting part of a workshop for HS teachers, I gave them 20 minutes of my freshman Intro Bio lecture on basic chemistry concepts (what's an atom, what are the types of molecular bonds, the really simple stuff that I shouldn't have to cover in college). After the 20 minutes, there was silence. The teachers were astonished - not that I
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Treatment of Ecology in AP classes
Personal anecdote: While conducting part of a workshop for HS teachers, I gave them 20 minutes of my freshman Intro Bio lecture on basic chemistry concepts (what's an atom, what are the types of molecular bonds, the really simple stuff that I shouldn't have to cover in college). After the 20 minutes, there was silence. The teachers were astonished - not that I would lecture on such elementary ideas (as I had expected), but that it went so fast. One of them said, What you just covered in 20 minutes is a third of my semester, and the others nodded. My turn to be astonished. I can't even imagine how you could stretch that stuff out for more than a week. The point: if a student takes AP Bio, they MIGHT just be getting what you and I consider a proper HS bio class. Certainly not college-level biology. Joe Subject: Re: Treatment of Ecology in AP classes I can't speak directly to the question of whether the classes provide adequate coverage of any given topic. Consulting the AP web site confirms your suspicion that ecology coverage comes last in the course. And of course, whether any given topic is covered adequately is strictly dependent on the school and the teacher, not the topical listing on the web site. I can say, from having served as a grader for the AP Biology exam, that ecology is well covered on the exam. That said, I also suspect that ecology may be a subject that gets less than full coverage in some of the classes because of sequencing. Also, it is typically covered in most intro biology courses late in the second semester if a two semester course. So, if you are wanting to assign credit according to coverage (seems to make sense), the proposal to give credit for the ecology portion of your course may be out of sync with the sequencing in the AP course. FWIW, I have long had a problem with AP coursework. Many schools likely do a good job with it -- but, and I know, I am an old school curmudgeon -- if these kids are ready for college, just send them to college. If they are not ready, don't let a high school offer them college level courses. But of course, that is a fight long ago lost. mcneely
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Treatment of Ecology in AP classes
This was my experience: I took many different AP classes in high school, and while maybe I was just lucky enough to have a good public school, the classes were rigorous and my classmates were bright. Most importantly, we were in those classes because we wanted to be and were interested in the subject material. The class sizes were small and I received a high amount of personal attention. I will never forget my first college-level science class. We were in an auditorium. I didn't know my professor and he didn't know me. My classmates were there to check off a requirement. I went from an interactive learning environment to trying to stay awake. I didn't receive any personal attention; I felt completely anonymous. I lost my enthusiasm and interest in a matter of weeks. I can't tell you how much more enjoyable and easier it was to learn basic science in high school. I wouldn't recommend the college 101, auditorium-style approach to anyone. Merran Owen On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 10:14 AM, joseph gathman jpgath...@yahoo.comwrote: Personal anecdote: While conducting part of a workshop for HS teachers, I gave them 20 minutes of my freshman Intro Bio lecture on basic chemistry concepts (what's an atom, what are the types of molecular bonds, the really simple stuff that I shouldn't have to cover in college). After the 20 minutes, there was silence. The teachers were astonished - not that I would lecture on such elementary ideas (as I had expected), but that it went so fast. One of them said, What you just covered in 20 minutes is a third of my semester, and the others nodded. My turn to be astonished. I can't even imagine how you could stretch that stuff out for more than a week. The point: if a student takes AP Bio, they MIGHT just be getting what you and I consider a proper HS bio class. Certainly not college-level biology. Joe Subject: Re: Treatment of Ecology in AP classes I can't speak directly to the question of whether the classes provide adequate coverage of any given topic. Consulting the AP web site confirms your suspicion that ecology coverage comes last in the course. And of course, whether any given topic is covered adequately is strictly dependent on the school and the teacher, not the topical listing on the web site. I can say, from having served as a grader for the AP Biology exam, that ecology is well covered on the exam. That said, I also suspect that ecology may be a subject that gets less than full coverage in some of the classes because of sequencing. Also, it is typically covered in most intro biology courses late in the second semester if a two semester course. So, if you are wanting to assign credit according to coverage (seems to make sense), the proposal to give credit for the ecology portion of your course may be out of sync with the sequencing in the AP course. FWIW, I have long had a problem with AP coursework. Many schools likely do a good job with it -- but, and I know, I am an old school curmudgeon -- if these kids are ready for college, just send them to college. If they are not ready, don't let a high school offer them college level courses. But of course, that is a fight long ago lost. mcneely
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Treatment of Ecology in AP classes
It has been interesting to read the responses to this topic.
Speaking from my own personal experience and having taken AP Bio in high
school, I did feel that yes, the ecology portion was a bit rushed because
it was towards the end of the curriculum. We had to study a bit of material
on our own because we didn't have time to cover it all in class before the
exam. However, we were also told by our teacher that we needed to make sure
to cover our bases in all areas when studying on our own. She also
suggested that the AP exam covers a lot of plant-related material and to
focus on that while studying since that is where previous students hadn't
done so well in the past. I felt the class in general was fine, and was
successful on the AP Exam (testing out of both semesters of college intro
bio). I was happy to not have to pay the tuition fees for 2 extra courses
and did fine in upper-level bio courses that I went on to take. I later
tutored students taking the same college intro bio course I had tested out
of, so I was able to see what the course entailed. Honestly, I believe that
the AP course I had taken in high school was just as intensive as what was
being taught at college level. However, if I would have been required to
take one semester of the intro course, I would definitely have preferred
the ecology/evolution/genetics portion since that wasn't covered as much as
the other areas in my circumstance. All in all, it seems very dependent on
the school (in terms of high school or even college) as to what level of
material the students are exposed to.
Cheers,
Melanie H.
On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 6:14 PM, joseph gathman jpgath...@yahoo.com wrote:
Personal anecdote:
While conducting part of a workshop for HS teachers, I gave them 20
minutes of my freshman Intro Bio lecture on basic chemistry concepts
(what's an atom, what are the types of molecular bonds, the really simple
stuff that I shouldn't have to cover in college).
After the 20 minutes, there was silence. The teachers were astonished -
not that I would lecture on such elementary ideas (as I had expected), but
that it went so fast. One of them said, What you just covered in 20
minutes is a third of my semester, and the others nodded. My turn to be
astonished. I can't even imagine how you could stretch that stuff out for
more than a week.
The point: if a student takes AP Bio, they MIGHT just be getting what you
and I consider a proper HS bio class. Certainly not college-level biology.
Joe
Subject: Re: Treatment of Ecology in AP classes
I can't speak directly to the question of whether the
classes provide adequate
coverage of any given topic. Consulting the AP web
site confirms your suspicion that ecology coverage comes
last in the course. And of course, whether any given
topic is covered adequately is strictly dependent on the
school and the teacher, not the topical listing on the web
site. I can say, from having served as a grader for
the AP Biology exam, that ecology is well covered on the
exam.
That said, I also suspect that ecology may be a subject
that gets less than full
coverage in some of the classes because of
sequencing. Also, it is typically
covered in most intro biology courses late in the second
semester if a two
semester course. So, if you are wanting to assign
credit according to coverage
(seems to make sense), the proposal to give credit for the
ecology portion of
your course may be out of sync with the sequencing in the
AP course.
FWIW, I have long had a problem with AP coursework.
Many schools likely do a
good job with it -- but, and I know, I am an old school
curmudgeon -- if these
kids are ready for college, just send them to
college. If they are not ready,
don't let a high school offer them college level
courses. But of course, that
is a fight long ago lost.
mcneely
--
Melanie Hedgespeth, PhD Student
Aquatic Ecology, Dept. of Biology
Lund University
Sölvegatan 37
SE-223 62 Lund, Sweden
≈≈≈ {º≈≈ (((º ≈
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Treatment of Ecology in AP classes
Thanks Merran Melanie, I would have to agree. I had an incredible biology teacher;my high school anatomy and physiology class was more rigorous than many of the science classes I took in college. I certainly would disagree with the statement that when students are taking AP Bio they are not getting college level education. But as an educator myself now, I know that this isn't always the case. However, that is perhaps more a reflection on our education system and is an entirely different discussion. Good luck figuring out a system that works for your school and your students! Susan
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Treatment of Ecology in AP classes
I feel like I need to add my personal story and two cents into this one. I didn't take an AP Bio class, I took the AP bio test. I had a college level textbook and a study hall because my school didn't offer the course or the test (which I also had to pay for). I got a 5, and I got to AP out of one semester of Biology and was bored to tears during the second semester. Now, I'm probably one of those exception cases, but I'm also a biologist and college educator who knows that, honestly, our first year students don't remember most of what they learn in Bio 101. What I think an AP class should denote is that this student was willing to put in more work than necessary to graduate, and that they have seen that information and would most likely recall it if they needed to, for example, in that future Microbiology or Cell Biology class that the intro courses prepare you for. What college really needs is a complete overhaul of introductory science courses into something where students actually learn science instead of memorizing a thousand facts that they will forget 999 of. However, that is another topic. What I would hope is that a student, such as myself, who put in the work to take the AP test (which, by the way, includes open ended questions that you have to understand to get credit for), would get some credit for it. Also, I couldn't take college classes in high school, not with two working parents and no transportation, plus I had to be in high school. The nearest community college was 30 min away, and real college, probably 45 to an hour. And this was NJ, I can only imagine other places. Sure, maybe AP classes aren't quite college, but getting a 4 or 5 on the AP exam isn't exactly a piece of cake either. Dr. Melissa Barlett Mohawk Valley Community College Utica, NY -Original Message- From: Ecological Society of America: grants, jobs, news [mailto:ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU] On Behalf Of Merran Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2011 1:07 PM To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Treatment of Ecology in AP classes This was my experience: I took many different AP classes in high school, and while maybe I was just lucky enough to have a good public school, the classes were rigorous and my classmates were bright. Most importantly, we were in those classes because we wanted to be and were interested in the subject material. The class sizes were small and I received a high amount of personal attention. I will never forget my first college-level science class. We were in an auditorium. I didn't know my professor and he didn't know me. My classmates were there to check off a requirement. I went from an interactive learning environment to trying to stay awake. I didn't receive any personal attention; I felt completely anonymous. I lost my enthusiasm and interest in a matter of weeks. I can't tell you how much more enjoyable and easier it was to learn basic science in high school. I wouldn't recommend the college 101, auditorium-style approach to anyone. Merran Owen On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 10:14 AM, joseph gathman jpgath...@yahoo.comwrote: Personal anecdote: While conducting part of a workshop for HS teachers, I gave them 20 minutes of my freshman Intro Bio lecture on basic chemistry concepts (what's an atom, what are the types of molecular bonds, the really simple stuff that I shouldn't have to cover in college). After the 20 minutes, there was silence. The teachers were astonished - not that I would lecture on such elementary ideas (as I had expected), but that it went so fast. One of them said, What you just covered in 20 minutes is a third of my semester, and the others nodded. My turn to be astonished. I can't even imagine how you could stretch that stuff out for more than a week. The point: if a student takes AP Bio, they MIGHT just be getting what you and I consider a proper HS bio class. Certainly not college-level biology. Joe Subject: Re: Treatment of Ecology in AP classes I can't speak directly to the question of whether the classes provide adequate coverage of any given topic. Consulting the AP web site confirms your suspicion that ecology coverage comes last in the course. And of course, whether any given topic is covered adequately is strictly dependent on the school and the teacher, not the topical listing on the web site. I can say, from having served as a grader for the AP Biology exam, that ecology is well covered on the exam. That said, I also suspect that ecology may be a subject that gets less than full coverage in some of the classes because of sequencing. Also, it is typically covered in most intro biology courses late in the second semester if a two semester course. So, if you are wanting to assign credit according to coverage (seems to make sense), the proposal to give credit for the ecology portion of your
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Treatment of Ecology in AP classes
Hello- Course coverage from the AP Biology web page: -Molecules and Cells, 25% -Heredity and Evolution, 25% -Organisms and Populations, 50% Generally, high school AP classes have more contact hours than the corresponding college-level course so I do not think that they would drop content, but that of course would be teacher/school-dependent. http://www.collegeboard.com/student/testing/ap/sub_bio.html Best, Tom On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 9:33 PM, Corbin, Jeffrey D. corb...@union.eduwrote: Hello Ecologgers - My department is trying to figure out how to best assign credit to incoming students who get 4's and 5's on the AP Biology exam. One proposal is to give them credit for the first class in our Intro Bio sequence, which happens to be the one that presents ecology (along with evolution and genetics). I suggested that this would be a mistake, as ecology is likely given short shrift in many high school classes because it is at the end of all of the textbooks. Quite reasonably, I've been challenged as to whether that is really the case. Does anyone know of any comparison of the weight given to various biology subjects (e.g. ecology, physiology, cell, etc.) in high school classes and the AP exam? I still have a suspicion that ecology is the most likely to be rushed or dropped, but maybe that's just because it is what happened when I took it. In any case, I'd be on firmer ground if I had even one piece of evidence to back it up! Thanks! -Jeff *** Jeffrey D. Corbin Department of Biological Sciences Union College Schenectady, NY 12308 (518) 388-6097 ***
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Treatment of Ecology in AP classes
Jeff, While I have not graded the AP biology exam, I have graded other exams, and as far as content covered, you really have to consider what the exams covers versus what is being taught in the classroom. I have found that how material is covered can vary widely between class, but all the instructors are told how much emphasis is given to each section of material, and the teachers are supposed to teach the courses accordingly. And if a section gets shortchanged by the instructor in the course, that will probably be reflected in the score of the students on the exam. Considering that, the best suggestion I would offer is to refer to the information online about the AP exam. That will tell you how much emphasis is given to the different topics of the course. They also have sample questions from the past several years, so you can also see how the information is being tested. You can find the breakdown of the AP Biology exam here, and there are links to sample questions, etc. http://www.collegeboard.com/student/testing/ap/biology/topic.html I hope this helps a bit, Andy Andrew Scholl Assistant Professor of Geography Director of Environmental Studies Program Department of Geography Wittenberg University PO Box 720 Springfield, OH 45501-0720 Office: 110B Carnegie Phone: 937-327-7304 Fax: 937-327-9508 asch...@wittenberg.edu -Original Message- From: Ecological Society of America: grants, jobs, news [mailto:ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU] On Behalf Of Corbin, Jeffrey D. Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2011 9:34 PM To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Subject: [ECOLOG-L] Treatment of Ecology in AP classes Hello Ecologgers - My department is trying to figure out how to best assign credit to incoming students who get 4's and 5's on the AP Biology exam. One proposal is to give them credit for the first class in our Intro Bio sequence, which happens to be the one that presents ecology (along with evolution and genetics). I suggested that this would be a mistake, as ecology is likely given short shrift in many high school classes because it is at the end of all of the textbooks. Quite reasonably, I've been challenged as to whether that is really the case. Does anyone know of any comparison of the weight given to various biology subjects (e.g. ecology, physiology, cell, etc.) in high school classes and the AP exam? I still have a suspicion that ecology is the most likely to be rushed or dropped, but maybe that's just because it is what happened when I took it. In any case, I'd be on firmer ground if I had even one piece of evidence to back it up! Thanks! -Jeff *** Jeffrey D. Corbin Department of Biological Sciences Union College Schenectady, NY 12308 (518) 388-6097 ***
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Treatment of Ecology in AP classes
I can't speak directly to the question of whether the classes provide adequate coverage of any given topic. Consulting the AP web site confirms your suspicion that ecology coverage comes last in the course. And of course, whether any given topic is covered adequately is strictly dependent on the school and the teacher, not the topical listing on the web site. I can say, from having served as a grader for the AP Biology exam, that ecology is well covered on the exam. That said, I also suspect that ecology may be a subject that gets less than full coverage in some of the classes because of sequencing. Also, it is typically covered in most intro biology courses late in the second semester if a two semester course. So, if you are wanting to assign credit according to coverage (seems to make sense), the proposal to give credit for the ecology portion of your course may be out of sync with the sequencing in the AP course. FWIW, I have long had a problem with AP coursework. Many schools likely do a good job with it -- but, and I know, I am an old school curmudgeon -- if these kids are ready for college, just send them to college. If they are not ready, don't let a high school offer them college level courses. But of course, that is a fight long ago lost. mcneely Corbin wrote: Hello Ecologgers - My department is trying to figure out how to best assign credit to incoming students who get 4's and 5's on the AP Biology exam. One proposal is to give them credit for the first class in our Intro Bio sequence, which happens to be the one that presents ecology (along with evolution and genetics). I suggested that this would be a mistake, as ecology is likely given short shrift in many high school classes because it is at the end of all of the textbooks. Quite reasonably, I've been challenged as to whether that is really the case. Does anyone know of any comparison of the weight given to various biology subjects (e.g. ecology, physiology, cell, etc.) in high school classes and the AP exam? I still have a suspicion that ecology is the most likely to be rushed or dropped, but maybe that's just because it is what happened when I took it. In any case, I'd be on firmer ground if I had even one piece of evidence to back it up! Thanks! -Jeff *** Jeffrey D. Corbin Department of Biological Sciences Union College Schenectady, NY 12308 (518) 388-6097 *** -- David McNeely
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Treatment of Ecology in AP classes
We only give credit for a non-majors course. No credit towards majors freshman bio. We just don't trust what the high schools cover. Lots of schools around here teach anatomy as the AP course. So, we made the decision long ago to not give any credit to the incoming bio majors. If they had a good course, then it should help them in our courses. I took AP bio and did not receive any credit from Northwestern, and that was long ago. Liane D. Liane Cochran-Stafira, Ph.D. Associate Professor Department of Biological Sciences Saint Xavier University 3700 West 103rd Street Chicago, Illinois 60655 phone: 773-298-3514 fax:773-298-3536 email: coch...@sxu.edu http://faculty.sxu.edu/~cochran/ http://faculty.sxu.edu/~cochran/ From: Ecological Society of America: grants, jobs, news on behalf of David L. McNeely Sent: Mon 11/21/2011 10:37 AM To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Treatment of Ecology in AP classes I can't speak directly to the question of whether the classes provide adequate coverage of any given topic. Consulting the AP web site confirms your suspicion that ecology coverage comes last in the course. And of course, whether any given topic is covered adequately is strictly dependent on the school and the teacher, not the topical listing on the web site. I can say, from having served as a grader for the AP Biology exam, that ecology is well covered on the exam. That said, I also suspect that ecology may be a subject that gets less than full coverage in some of the classes because of sequencing. Also, it is typically covered in most intro biology courses late in the second semester if a two semester course. So, if you are wanting to assign credit according to coverage (seems to make sense), the proposal to give credit for the ecology portion of your course may be out of sync with the sequencing in the AP course. FWIW, I have long had a problem with AP coursework. Many schools likely do a good job with it -- but, and I know, I am an old school curmudgeon -- if these kids are ready for college, just send them to college. If they are not ready, don't let a high school offer them college level courses. But of course, that is a fight long ago lost. mcneely Corbin wrote: Hello Ecologgers - My department is trying to figure out how to best assign credit to incoming students who get 4's and 5's on the AP Biology exam. One proposal is to give them credit for the first class in our Intro Bio sequence, which happens to be the one that presents ecology (along with evolution and genetics). I suggested that this would be a mistake, as ecology is likely given short shrift in many high school classes because it is at the end of all of the textbooks. Quite reasonably, I've been challenged as to whether that is really the case. Does anyone know of any comparison of the weight given to various biology subjects (e.g. ecology, physiology, cell, etc.) in high school classes and the AP exam? I still have a suspicion that ecology is the most likely to be rushed or dropped, but maybe that's just because it is what happened when I took it. In any case, I'd be on firmer ground if I had even one piece of evidence to back it up! Thanks! -Jeff *** Jeffrey D. Corbin Department of Biological Sciences Union College Schenectady, NY 12308 (518) 388-6097 *** -- David McNeely
