Re: [Elecraft] Boldly OT: 6 meter Sporadic-E season and the FT-8 microjuggernaut

[Neil Zampella]

Considering that FT8 is done with 8-tone frequency-shift keying (8-FSK) 
at 12000/1920 = 6.25 baud.   I'd like to know how you can get that tone 
in CW?


As far as the S/N threshold of the various WSJT-X  modes (from the 
protocol specs in the WSJT-X user guide):

FT8  : -21
JT4A         : -23
JT9A        : -27
JT65    : -25
QRA64A : -26
WSPR : -31

More protocol information can be found in section 17: 
https://physics.princeton.edu/pulsar/k1jt/wsjtx-doc/wsjtx-main-1.9.1.html



Neil, KN3ILZ


On 6/1/2018 9:19 PM, Wes Stewart wrote:

If you knew the code you could work that signal on CW.  Quicker too.

Wes  N7WS.

On 6/1/2018 2:07 PM, John Stengrevics wrote:
I worked D41CV on 6 meter FT8 a couple of weeks ago.  He was running 
15 watts and was -18dB here.  If that’s not sub-noise floor, I don’t 
know what is.


73,

John
WA1EAZ





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[Elecraft] KPA-1500 Fan Noise

[James F. Boehner MD via Elecraft]

Just thought I would add a few thoughts as far as the fan noise.

I'm not certain a YouTube piece would help, but perhaps personal observations 
might.

First, via the menu, you can select the minimum fan speed, 0-5.  Of course, the 
fan speed will go up with the Amp temperature.

These are my personal observations:

0-Nothing
1-Barely perceptible
2-Acceptable fan noise, even for SSB operating.  Low pitched whine
3-The noise and the pitch of the whine is past the acceptable point.  Even a 
very directional mic will probably pick up the noise.  This is where Noise 
Cancelling headphones would start to help.
4-Louder and higher pitched whine
5-Very loud and higher pitched whine

So, the fan noise becomes particularly bothersome on level 3 and above.  If you 
are doing CW and/or Digital, the noise will only be a factor with the operator. 
 On SSB, the noise will probably be noticeable on the air.  However, the SSB 
duty cycle may not require higher fan speeds.  Those who have been active in 
contests will probably know that answer.

Rich, if fan noise is going to be that strong a factor, perhaps you should be 
looking at tube amps instead.  Personally, if I found the KPA-1500 fan noise 
excessive in the future, I would plan on moving it off my desk or remoting it 
rather than replacing it.  It's integration with the K3 would be very hard to 
give up.


’73 de JIM N2ZZ
#106

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net 
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Dr. William J. Schmidt
Sent: Friday, June 01, 2018 8:59 PM
To: 'Elecraft Reflector'
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KPA-1500 Fan Noise - YouTube ?

So just a bit of thermodynamics... if the input to any amplifier is 1500 watts 
and it is 50% efficient, since energy is conserved, 750 watts will come out in 
another form.. and in this case it's heat.  Doesn't matter what the converter 
is (transistor, tube, resistor, etc.).  It all behaves the same.  Need to get 
rid of 750 watts of heat.  The only difference may be the way the heat is taken 
away of the converter... convection (heat sink), forced convection (heat skin 
plus fan), liquid convection (water cooled heat sink).  The poison is the heat 
removal device not the converter.


Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ J68HZ 8P6HK ZF2HZ PJ4/K9HZ VP5/K9HZ PJ2/K9HZ 

Owner - Operator
Big Signal Ranch – K9ZC
Staunton, Illinois

Owner – Operator
Villa Grand Piton – J68HZ
Soufriere, St. Lucia W.I.
Rent it: www.VillaGrandPiton.com
Like us on Facebook! 

Moderator – North American QRO Group at Groups.IO.

email:  b...@wjschmidt.com



-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net 
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Bill Stravinsky via 
Elecraft
Sent: Friday, June 1, 2018 7:33 PM
To: Elecraft Reflector 
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KPA-1500 Fan Noise - YouTube ?

 Rich

You pretty much hit the nail on the head about solid state amps.  As they say 
there's no free lunch.  Solid state has made great strides in high power 
ampsbut its still solid state and a p/n junction or some form thereof.  1500 
watts of heat in those junctions has to be cooled down or it won't be long 
before it needsnew parts.
Depending on your operating habits (contesting, casual, or whatever) there will 
be varying degrees of fan noise.  The higher the duty cycle the higher thefan 
requirements.  Pick your poison, a small light weight amp easy to move around 
or one you need a fork lift to pick up.  I prefer tube amps for a few 
reasonsand have the Acom 2000a (and an Alpha 89 that now sits in the living 
room temporarily) but I'm still glad I got the kpa1500 at least so far.
The kpa sits nicely on top of the Acom without causing the table they sit on to 
crash to the floor in pieces, hi.  I'm surprised nobody has made a you tube 
ofthe amp in operation actually.  But there are only just over 200 of the new 
amps out there.  Good luck with your investigation, Rich.
BillK3WJV

On Friday, June 1, 2018, 8:00:29 PM EDT, Richard Thorne 
 wrote:  
 
 This fan noise issue has me concerned to the point that I’m considering 
cancelling my order.

While the amp won’t be on my operating desk, it will be on a rack next to my 
operating desk.  Remoting the amp is not an option. Quite frankly I have no 
interest in remoting the amp.

Is there anyone out there that has a KPA-1500 willing to post a YouTube video 
so we can hear the fan in action and judge the noise for ourselves?

From the research I’ve done it appears that if you want a solid state amp, 
regardless of make, you need to be prepared for fan noise.

Thanks

Rich - N5ZC

Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [Elecraft] KPA-1500 Fan Noise - YouTube ?

[Don Wilhelm]

Only one bit of correction.  If the output power is 1500 watts and the 
efficiency is 50%, that 1500 watts is only half the total power 
consumed, so there is 1500 watts of power that must be exhausted as heat.


Yes, it is all thermodynamics, that heat must be dissipated somehow. 
Fans are the obvious solution.


73,
Don W3FPR

On 6/1/2018 8:59 PM, Dr. William J. Schmidt wrote:

So just a bit of thermodynamics... if the input to any amplifier is 1500 watts 
and it is 50% efficient, since energy is conserved, 750 watts will come out in 
another form.. and in this case it's heat.  Doesn't matter what the converter 
is (transistor, tube, resistor, etc.).  It all behaves the same.  Need to get 
rid of 750 watts of heat.  The only difference may be the way the heat is taken 
away of the converter... convection (heat sink), forced convection (heat skin 
plus fan), liquid convection (water cooled heat sink).  The poison is the heat 
removal device not the converter.


Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ J68HZ 8P6HK ZF2HZ PJ4/K9HZ VP5/K9HZ PJ2/K9HZ

Owner - Operator
Big Signal Ranch – K9ZC
Staunton, Illinois

Owner – Operator
Villa Grand Piton – J68HZ
Soufriere, St. Lucia W.I.
Rent it: www.VillaGrandPiton.com
Like us on Facebook!

Moderator – North American QRO Group at Groups.IO.

email:  b...@wjschmidt.com



-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net 
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Bill Stravinsky via 
Elecraft
Sent: Friday, June 1, 2018 7:33 PM
To: Elecraft Reflector 
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KPA-1500 Fan Noise - YouTube ?

  Rich

You pretty much hit the nail on the head about solid state amps.  As they say 
there's no free lunch.  Solid state has made great strides in high power 
ampsbut its still solid state and a p/n junction or some form thereof.  1500 
watts of heat in those junctions has to be cooled down or it won't be long 
before it needsnew parts.
Depending on your operating habits (contesting, casual, or whatever) there will 
be varying degrees of fan noise.  The higher the duty cycle the higher thefan 
requirements.  Pick your poison, a small light weight amp easy to move around 
or one you need a fork lift to pick up.  I prefer tube amps for a few 
reasonsand have the Acom 2000a (and an Alpha 89 that now sits in the living 
room temporarily) but I'm still glad I got the kpa1500 at least so far.
The kpa sits nicely on top of the Acom without causing the table they sit on to 
crash to the floor in pieces, hi.  I'm surprised nobody has made a you tube 
ofthe amp in operation actually.  But there are only just over 200 of the new 
amps out there.  Good luck with your investigation, Rich.
BillK3WJV

 On Friday, June 1, 2018, 8:00:29 PM EDT, Richard Thorne 
 wrote:
  
  This fan noise issue has me concerned to the point that I’m considering cancelling my order.


While the amp won’t be on my operating desk, it will be on a rack next to my 
operating desk.  Remoting the amp is not an option. Quite frankly I have no 
interest in remoting the amp.

Is there anyone out there that has a KPA-1500 willing to post a YouTube video 
so we can hear the fan in action and judge the noise for ourselves?

 From the research I’ve done it appears that if you want a solid state amp, 
regardless of make, you need to be prepared for fan noise.

Thanks

Rich - N5ZC

Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [Elecraft] KPA-1500 Fan Noise - YouTube ?

[Don Butler]

I personally think all the banter about KPA1500 fan noise has created 
confusion.   Yes, the amp has three fans with five selectable fan speeds..and 
since the amp is small the fans are necessarily small and therefore must run 
faster …. and as the fan speed increases the pitch and noise levels increase.. 
and the higher fan speeds do indeed create significant noise, but the higher 
speeds will rarely (if ever) be needed.  I have had my KPA1500 about 3 months 
now, and have manually switched to level 3 just a couple times (cq running 
during cw contest and major cw split pileup), and thus far I have never had to 
use levels 4 or 5.   The fans operate automatically as per heat sink 
temperature but can also be manually controlled.   Fan speeds 1 and 2, to me, 
are just like any other amplifier, and noise is not problematic.  Levels 3, 4, 
and 5 however are definitely noisy and can become annoying…. But again, those 
speeds are rarely necessary.   IMHO, with five selectable speeds, the KPA1500 
could very likely have the most capable cooling system available in any amateur 
amplifier and I call that a plus.  The three additional amplifiers in my 
shack (Alpha 9500, Icom PA1 and Alpha 89) make noise too, but it’s probably a 
good bet that they do not have cooling capability that matches the KPA1500’s 
five speed fans.

Don, N5LZ

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net 
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Richard Thorne
Sent: Friday, June 01, 2018 5:55 PM
To: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: [Elecraft] KPA-1500 Fan Noise - YouTube ?

This fan noise issue has me concerned to the point that I’m considering 
cancelling my order.

While the amp won’t be on my operating desk, it will be on a rack next to my 
operating desk.  Remoting the amp is not an option. Quite frankly I have no 
interest in remoting the amp.

Is there anyone out there that has a KPA-1500 willing to post a YouTube video 
so we can hear the fan in action and judge the noise for ourselves?

From the research I’ve done it appears that if you want a solid state amp, 
regardless of make, you need to be prepared for fan noise.

Thanks

Rich - N5ZC

Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [Elecraft] Boldly OT: 6 meter Sporadic-E season and the FT-8 microjuggernaut

[David Gilbert]

Ahh .. I see.   We're not talking comparable bandwidths here.  My bad.

73,
Dave   AB7E


On 6/1/2018 7:27 PM, David Gilbert wrote:


Can you explain that?  I've done intelligibility tests and anything 
more than a db or so below the noise level is almost impossible to 
copy.  Speed of course has an impact, so I'm talking speeds in the 
range of 20-25 WPM.  It might be different at much slower speeds.


73,
Dave   AB7E




On 6/1/2018 4:52 PM, Jim Brown wrote:

On 6/1/2018 4:38 PM, David Gilbert wrote:
And of course CW is faster ... just 20 db or so less effective for 
weak signal reception.


I think the number is more like 6-10 dB, depending on the skill of 
the operator.


73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] Boldly OT: 6 meter Sporadic-E season and the FT-8 microjuggernaut

[David Gilbert]

Can you explain that?  I've done intelligibility tests and anything more 
than a db or so below the noise level is almost impossible to copy.  
Speed of course has an impact, so I'm talking speeds in the range of 
20-25 WPM.  It might be different at much slower speeds.


73,
Dave   AB7E




On 6/1/2018 4:52 PM, Jim Brown wrote:

On 6/1/2018 4:38 PM, David Gilbert wrote:
And of course CW is faster ... just 20 db or so less effective for 
weak signal reception.


I think the number is more like 6-10 dB, depending on the skill of the 
operator.


73, Jim K9YC
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[Elecraft] KPA-1500 Fan Noise

[Paul Van Dyke]

Hmmm

I realized that there maybe fan noise and built a shelf away from the
station before it got here.
I have Command 2500 here and am totally aware when it it is on. And to be
soon out of the shack. Solid state does mean that heat has to go somewhere,
so IMHO, plan for the KPA1500 to be out front, and the power supply out of
main hearing range

Paul KB9AVO
KPA1500  #193
(not putting all the numbers up)
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Re: [Elecraft] Boldly OT: 6 meter Sporadic-E season and the FT-8 microjuggernaut

[Bill Frantz]

In celebration of my 74th birthday, I'll try not to seem to be 
an old curmudgeon.


There are several issues that might be affecting the number of 
CW signals heard. One is the relative lack of CW skills in the 
general ham population. I'm a poster child for that lack of 
skill. I passed the 5 WPM test when I got my extra. Did that 
mean I could play in the 15 to 40 WPM world we see on the bands? 
Of course not.


I've been trying to improve my CW. I started by chasing some of 
the big DXpeditions. I got so I could recognize my CQ, call 
sign, and TU, which let know whether to press the AE6JV key or 
the 5NN TU key. My vocabulary expanded to recognize things like 
CQ EU etc. and avoid being a complete boor. I also started 
running contests in S mode, learning how to decode call signs 
and exchanges, usually only after many repeats. Now I even try 
checking into the weekly Elecraft net. Thanks for putting up 
with me Kevin.


I still like the digital modes. I fell in love with PSK31 after 
operating it a Field Day. It was a lot like computer chatting, 
which I had done as a part of my job in my last job before retirement.


Another is the kind of QSO operators want to have. I was quite 
surprised when one of the younger members of our club -- in his 
30s -- said he liked contesting because he didn't have to listen 
to old men talking about their medical problems. He is a good 
contester and regularly outscores me in contests. This kind of 
operator will be quite happy with FT8, or canned exchanges in CW 
and digital modes. I've met many of them on PSK, even when I try 
to indicate I'm up for a bit of a chat.


I got to really like the automatic features when I was in the 
depths of side effects from my cancer treatment. I could sit 
back in my chair and make contacts without having ot expend a 
lot of the energy I didn't have.


I do think the advertised 20-24 dB below the noise floor is a 
bit of crock, but not entirely wrong. If I understand the 
situation correctly, the noise is measured in a 3KHz band width 
while the signal is 50 Hz wide. That factor of 60 should be 
responsible for 17.8 dB of the advertised noise immunity of the 
mode. The other 2 to 6 dB is a real advantage over CW with the 
tightest K3 DSP bandwidth. (APF can do better, but dies when 
other signals, like DQRM, are near the desired signal.)


When I was operating portable with a barefoot KX3 in New 
Hampshire a month ago using FT8, I had real problems getting all 
that juicy DX in EU to answer me. Finding an open space in the 
band was hard. Finally I tried finding an open transmit window 
and calling CQ. The DX came to me, and I contacted a few ATNOs. 
I had to move frequently as other stations started transmitting 
in the same window I was using. It's always worth pausing to see 
if you still have the window. Here full break in CW has a real 
advantage. SSB has some of the same advantage because 
transmissions aren't synchronized, as they are in FT8.


To try to answer Wayne's question, perhaps setting up schedules 
using the Internet would help. Also calling CQ can help a lot. I 
was asked to test how 15M was holding up in preparation for 
Field Day. I found the band dead until I tried calling CQ. I 
didn't make many contacts, but calling CQ brought stations out 
of the woodwork including some DX.


I agree with Jim's comments about LotW. My truly spectacular 
LotW success was with the 5 FT8 out of state 6M DX contacts I 
made last new years eve. All are LotW confirmed. Out of 88 FT8 
contacts logged in this last trip to New Hampshire, 55 or 62.5% 
have been confirmed with LotW. Compare that with the CQ WPX CW 
contest last weekend. I logged 255 QSOs and have 80 LotW 
confirmations 31.4%). Of course, the WPX contest was quite 
recent, and more confirmations should trickle in. It is also 
almost certain that I blew copying some of the calls which would 
push down the number of confirmations.


73 Bill AE6JV

On 6/1/18 at 8:46 AM, n...@elecraft.com (Wayne Burdick) wrote:

At first I thought it was my receiver. Or my antenna farm, 
limited in scale by a pre-nuptial clause. Or noise caused by 
the zomboid army of switching power supplies oozing inexorably 
into my personal space.


Nope.
It turns out the dearth of CW and SSB signals on 6 meters at 
the height of 2018 Spring Sporadic-E season can be traced to 
one factor: the 24-hour intravenous rave that is FT-8.


Yeah, I get the whole 
sub-noise-floor-and-not-automated-(wink)-QSO thing. But I’d 
like to figure out how those of us who enjoy the occasional 
gear-grinding manual-transmission contact can find each other 
on this brave new highway. Ideas?


Wayne
N6KR

-
Bill Frantz| Airline peanut bag: "Produced  | Periwinkle
(408)356-8506  | in a facility that processes   | 16345 
Englewood Ave
www.pwpconsult.com | peanuts and other nuts." - Duh | Los Gatos, 
CA 95032

Re: [Elecraft] KPA-1500 Fan Noise - YouTube ?

[Wes Stewart]

What's a basement?  On towertalk they talk about letting the lawn grow over 
ground radials.  I wonder what a lawn is.  They also say to install ground rods 
where the rain will hit them.  I wonder what rain is.


Wes  N7WS

On 6/1/2018 6:05 PM, hawley, charles j jr wrote:

Some years ago we cooled a PDP11 by putting the fan remote and running a dryer 
hose to the computer. How about putting the fan in the basement and the rig on 
the desk where it’s handy?

Chuck Jack
KE9UW


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Re: [Elecraft] KPA-1500 Fan Noise - YouTube ?

[Bill Stravinsky via Elecraft]

 Tube amp just has the single fan that doesn't spin at 9000 rpm like the little 
solid state fans, hi.  Same noise level if xmit or not.
BillK3WJV

On Friday, June 1, 2018, 9:04:45 PM EDT, Dr. William J. Schmidt 
 wrote:  
 
 So just a bit of thermodynamics... if the input to any amplifier is 1500 watts 
and it is 50% efficient, since energy is conserved, 750 watts will come out in 
another form.. and in this case it's heat.  Doesn't matter what the converter 
is (transistor, tube, resistor, etc.).  It all behaves the same.  Need to get 
rid of 750 watts of heat.  The only difference may be the way the heat is taken 
away of the converter... convection (heat sink), forced convection (heat skin 
plus fan), liquid convection (water cooled heat sink).  The poison is the heat 
removal device not the converter.


Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ J68HZ 8P6HK ZF2HZ PJ4/K9HZ VP5/K9HZ PJ2/K9HZ 

Owner - Operator
Big Signal Ranch – K9ZC
Staunton, Illinois

Owner – Operator
Villa Grand Piton – J68HZ
Soufriere, St. Lucia W.I.
Rent it: www.VillaGrandPiton.com
Like us on Facebook! 

Moderator – North American QRO Group at Groups.IO.

email:  b...@wjschmidt.com



-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net 
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Bill Stravinsky via 
Elecraft
Sent: Friday, June 1, 2018 7:33 PM
To: Elecraft Reflector 
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KPA-1500 Fan Noise - YouTube ?

 Rich

You pretty much hit the nail on the head about solid state amps.  As they say 
there's no free lunch.  Solid state has made great strides in high power 
ampsbut its still solid state and a p/n junction or some form thereof.  1500 
watts of heat in those junctions has to be cooled down or it won't be long 
before it needsnew parts.
Depending on your operating habits (contesting, casual, or whatever) there will 
be varying degrees of fan noise.  The higher the duty cycle the higher thefan 
requirements.  Pick your poison, a small light weight amp easy to move around 
or one you need a fork lift to pick up.  I prefer tube amps for a few 
reasonsand have the Acom 2000a (and an Alpha 89 that now sits in the living 
room temporarily) but I'm still glad I got the kpa1500 at least so far.
The kpa sits nicely on top of the Acom without causing the table they sit on to 
crash to the floor in pieces, hi.  I'm surprised nobody has made a you tube 
ofthe amp in operation actually.  But there are only just over 200 of the new 
amps out there.  Good luck with your investigation, Rich.
BillK3WJV

    On Friday, June 1, 2018, 8:00:29 PM EDT, Richard Thorne 
 wrote:  
 
 This fan noise issue has me concerned to the point that I’m considering 
cancelling my order.

While the amp won’t be on my operating desk, it will be on a rack next to my 
operating desk.  Remoting the amp is not an option. Quite frankly I have no 
interest in remoting the amp.

Is there anyone out there that has a KPA-1500 willing to post a YouTube video 
so we can hear the fan in action and judge the noise for ourselves?

From the research I’ve done it appears that if you want a solid state amp, 
regardless of make, you need to be prepared for fan noise.

Thanks

Rich - N5ZC

Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [Elecraft] Boldly OT: 6 meter Sporadic-E season and the FT-8 microjuggernaut

[Wes Stewart]

If you knew the code you could work that signal on CW.  Quicker too.

Wes  N7WS.

On 6/1/2018 2:07 PM, John Stengrevics wrote:

I worked D41CV on 6 meter FT8 a couple of weeks ago.  He was running 15 watts 
and was -18dB here.  If that’s not sub-noise floor, I don’t know what is.

73,

John
WA1EAZ


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Re: [Elecraft] KPA-1500 Fan Noise - YouTube ?

[hawley, charles j jr]

Some years ago we cooled a PDP11 by putting the fan remote and running a dryer 
hose to the computer. How about putting the fan in the basement and the rig on 
the desk where it’s handy?

Chuck Jack 
KE9UW

Sent from my iPhone, cjack 

> On Jun 1, 2018, at 7:57 PM, Michael Walker  wrote:
> 
> Bill is correct
> 
> You have to move air to cool down those devices and it takes fans to do
> it.  Water cooling might work if you wish to modify it.  :)
> 
> But, there is no free lunch as was mentioned.  Be prepared that any 1500
> watt LMDOS amp requires cooling but since there is no tube, they are built
> in smaller boxes, so you get smaller fans that have to move more air.
> 
> The B26 is somewhat quieter I think, but they worked on some things to make
> it quieter like extending the fan out the back so there is less disturbed
> air when it hits the fan blades.
> 
> They aren't that loud and if were good headphones, you won't notice at all.
> 
> my 2 cents, Mike va3mw
> 
> 
> On Fri, Jun 1, 2018 at 8:32 PM, Bill Stravinsky via Elecraft <
> elecraft@mailman.qth.net> wrote:
> 
>> Rich
>> 
>> You pretty much hit the nail on the head about solid state amps.  As they
>> say there's no free lunch.  Solid state has made great strides in high
>> power ampsbut its still solid state and a p/n junction or some form
>> thereof.  1500 watts of heat in those junctions has to be cooled down or it
>> won't be long before it needsnew parts.
>> Depending on your operating habits (contesting, casual, or whatever) there
>> will be varying degrees of fan noise.  The higher the duty cycle the higher
>> thefan requirements.  Pick your poison, a small light weight amp easy to
>> move around or one you need a fork lift to pick up.  I prefer tube amps for
>> a few reasonsand have the Acom 2000a (and an Alpha 89 that now sits in the
>> living room temporarily) but I'm still glad I got the kpa1500 at least so
>> far.
>> The kpa sits nicely on top of the Acom without causing the table they sit
>> on to crash to the floor in pieces, hi.  I'm surprised nobody has made a
>> you tube ofthe amp in operation actually.  But there are only just over 200
>> of the new amps out there.  Good luck with your investigation, Rich.
>> BillK3WJV
>> 
>>On Friday, June 1, 2018, 8:00:29 PM EDT, Richard Thorne <
>> rtho...@rthorne.net> wrote:
>> 
>> This fan noise issue has me concerned to the point that I’m considering
>> cancelling my order.
>> 
>> While the amp won’t be on my operating desk, it will be on a rack next to
>> my operating desk.  Remoting the amp is not an option. Quite frankly I have
>> no interest in remoting the amp.
>> 
>> Is there anyone out there that has a KPA-1500 willing to post a YouTube
>> video so we can hear the fan in action and judge the noise for ourselves?
>> 
>> From the research I’ve done it appears that if you want a solid state amp,
>> regardless of make, you need to be prepared for fan noise.
>> 
>> Thanks
>> 
>> Rich - N5ZC
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> __
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>> 
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
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>> 
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Re: [Elecraft] KPA-1500 Fan Noise - YouTube ?

[Dr. William J. Schmidt]

So just a bit of thermodynamics... if the input to any amplifier is 1500 watts 
and it is 50% efficient, since energy is conserved, 750 watts will come out in 
another form.. and in this case it's heat.  Doesn't matter what the converter 
is (transistor, tube, resistor, etc.).  It all behaves the same.  Need to get 
rid of 750 watts of heat.  The only difference may be the way the heat is taken 
away of the converter... convection (heat sink), forced convection (heat skin 
plus fan), liquid convection (water cooled heat sink).  The poison is the heat 
removal device not the converter.


Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ J68HZ 8P6HK ZF2HZ PJ4/K9HZ VP5/K9HZ PJ2/K9HZ 

Owner - Operator
Big Signal Ranch – K9ZC
Staunton, Illinois

Owner – Operator
Villa Grand Piton – J68HZ
Soufriere, St. Lucia W.I.
Rent it: www.VillaGrandPiton.com
Like us on Facebook! 

Moderator – North American QRO Group at Groups.IO.

email:  b...@wjschmidt.com



-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net 
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Bill Stravinsky via 
Elecraft
Sent: Friday, June 1, 2018 7:33 PM
To: Elecraft Reflector 
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] KPA-1500 Fan Noise - YouTube ?

 Rich

You pretty much hit the nail on the head about solid state amps.  As they say 
there's no free lunch.  Solid state has made great strides in high power 
ampsbut its still solid state and a p/n junction or some form thereof.  1500 
watts of heat in those junctions has to be cooled down or it won't be long 
before it needsnew parts.
Depending on your operating habits (contesting, casual, or whatever) there will 
be varying degrees of fan noise.  The higher the duty cycle the higher thefan 
requirements.  Pick your poison, a small light weight amp easy to move around 
or one you need a fork lift to pick up.  I prefer tube amps for a few 
reasonsand have the Acom 2000a (and an Alpha 89 that now sits in the living 
room temporarily) but I'm still glad I got the kpa1500 at least so far.
The kpa sits nicely on top of the Acom without causing the table they sit on to 
crash to the floor in pieces, hi.  I'm surprised nobody has made a you tube 
ofthe amp in operation actually.  But there are only just over 200 of the new 
amps out there.  Good luck with your investigation, Rich.
BillK3WJV

On Friday, June 1, 2018, 8:00:29 PM EDT, Richard Thorne 
 wrote:  
 
 This fan noise issue has me concerned to the point that I’m considering 
cancelling my order.

While the amp won’t be on my operating desk, it will be on a rack next to my 
operating desk.  Remoting the amp is not an option. Quite frankly I have no 
interest in remoting the amp.

Is there anyone out there that has a KPA-1500 willing to post a YouTube video 
so we can hear the fan in action and judge the noise for ourselves?

From the research I’ve done it appears that if you want a solid state amp, 
regardless of make, you need to be prepared for fan noise.

Thanks

Rich - N5ZC

Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [Elecraft] KPA-1500 Fan Noise - YouTube ?

[Michael Walker]

Bill is correct

You have to move air to cool down those devices and it takes fans to do
it.  Water cooling might work if you wish to modify it.  :)

But, there is no free lunch as was mentioned.  Be prepared that any 1500
watt LMDOS amp requires cooling but since there is no tube, they are built
in smaller boxes, so you get smaller fans that have to move more air.

The B26 is somewhat quieter I think, but they worked on some things to make
it quieter like extending the fan out the back so there is less disturbed
air when it hits the fan blades.

They aren't that loud and if were good headphones, you won't notice at all.

my 2 cents, Mike va3mw


On Fri, Jun 1, 2018 at 8:32 PM, Bill Stravinsky via Elecraft <
elecraft@mailman.qth.net> wrote:

>  Rich
>
> You pretty much hit the nail on the head about solid state amps.  As they
> say there's no free lunch.  Solid state has made great strides in high
> power ampsbut its still solid state and a p/n junction or some form
> thereof.  1500 watts of heat in those junctions has to be cooled down or it
> won't be long before it needsnew parts.
> Depending on your operating habits (contesting, casual, or whatever) there
> will be varying degrees of fan noise.  The higher the duty cycle the higher
> thefan requirements.  Pick your poison, a small light weight amp easy to
> move around or one you need a fork lift to pick up.  I prefer tube amps for
> a few reasonsand have the Acom 2000a (and an Alpha 89 that now sits in the
> living room temporarily) but I'm still glad I got the kpa1500 at least so
> far.
> The kpa sits nicely on top of the Acom without causing the table they sit
> on to crash to the floor in pieces, hi.  I'm surprised nobody has made a
> you tube ofthe amp in operation actually.  But there are only just over 200
> of the new amps out there.  Good luck with your investigation, Rich.
> BillK3WJV
>
> On Friday, June 1, 2018, 8:00:29 PM EDT, Richard Thorne <
> rtho...@rthorne.net> wrote:
>
>  This fan noise issue has me concerned to the point that I’m considering
> cancelling my order.
>
> While the amp won’t be on my operating desk, it will be on a rack next to
> my operating desk.  Remoting the amp is not an option. Quite frankly I have
> no interest in remoting the amp.
>
> Is there anyone out there that has a KPA-1500 willing to post a YouTube
> video so we can hear the fan in action and judge the noise for ourselves?
>
> From the research I’ve done it appears that if you want a solid state amp,
> regardless of make, you need to be prepared for fan noise.
>
> Thanks
>
> Rich - N5ZC
>
> Sent from my iPhone
> __
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Re: [Elecraft] KPA-1500 Fan Noise - YouTube ?

[Bill Stravinsky via Elecraft]

 Rich

You pretty much hit the nail on the head about solid state amps.  As they say 
there's no free lunch.  Solid state has made great strides in high power 
ampsbut its still solid state and a p/n junction or some form thereof.  1500 
watts of heat in those junctions has to be cooled down or it won't be long 
before it needsnew parts.
Depending on your operating habits (contesting, casual, or whatever) there will 
be varying degrees of fan noise.  The higher the duty cycle the higher thefan 
requirements.  Pick your poison, a small light weight amp easy to move around 
or one you need a fork lift to pick up.  I prefer tube amps for a few 
reasonsand have the Acom 2000a (and an Alpha 89 that now sits in the living 
room temporarily) but I'm still glad I got the kpa1500 at least so far.
The kpa sits nicely on top of the Acom without causing the table they sit on to 
crash to the floor in pieces, hi.  I'm surprised nobody has made a you tube 
ofthe amp in operation actually.  But there are only just over 200 of the new 
amps out there.  Good luck with your investigation, Rich.
BillK3WJV

On Friday, June 1, 2018, 8:00:29 PM EDT, Richard Thorne 
 wrote:  
 
 This fan noise issue has me concerned to the point that I’m considering 
cancelling my order.

While the amp won’t be on my operating desk, it will be on a rack next to my 
operating desk.  Remoting the amp is not an option. Quite frankly I have no 
interest in remoting the amp.

Is there anyone out there that has a KPA-1500 willing to post a YouTube video 
so we can hear the fan in action and judge the noise for ourselves?

From the research I’ve done it appears that if you want a solid state amp, 
regardless of make, you need to be prepared for fan noise.

Thanks

Rich - N5ZC

Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [Elecraft] KPA1500 LCD Color

[Wayne Burdick]

Hi John,

Amber is not a standard color for this particular display. Sorry about that.

Wayne
N6KR



> On Jun 1, 2018, at 3:44 PM, John Perlick  wrote:
> 
> I love the backlight color on my K3/K3S and KX3.  I also love my new KPA1500. 
>  But, why oh why did you change to a blue backlight on the KPA1500?  Dang, I 
> love that amber color--reminds me of that faded amber color of those old 
> radios, like my RME-45 that I had before my Novice days.  Let me know if you 
> do change to Amber! 
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[Elecraft] KPA-1500 Fan Noise - YouTube ?

[Richard Thorne]

This fan noise issue has me concerned to the point that I’m considering 
cancelling my order.

While the amp won’t be on my operating desk, it will be on a rack next to my 
operating desk.  Remoting the amp is not an option. Quite frankly I have no 
interest in remoting the amp.

Is there anyone out there that has a KPA-1500 willing to post a YouTube video 
so we can hear the fan in action and judge the noise for ourselves?

From the research I’ve done it appears that if you want a solid state amp, 
regardless of make, you need to be prepared for fan noise.

Thanks

Rich - N5ZC

Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [Elecraft] Boldly OT: 6 meter Sporadic-E season and the FT-8 microjuggernaut

[Jim Brown]

On 6/1/2018 4:38 PM, David Gilbert wrote:
And of course CW is faster ... just 20 db or so less effective for weak 
signal reception.


I think the number is more like 6-10 dB, depending on the skill of the 
operator.


73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] Boldly OT: 6 meter Sporadic-E season and the FT-8 microjuggernaut

[David Gilbert]

Wrong.

FT8 is indeed a sub-noise floor mode like JT65.  Don know where you got 
the idea it isn't, but FT8 is actually an offshoot of JT65 except it 
sacrifices a few db for the sake of faster exchanges.  The official FT8 
documentation from K1JT, the creator of both, says that it is nominally 
capable of -20 db decoding.  >Referenced to the noise floor<


And of course CW is faster ... just 20 db or so less effective for weak 
signal reception.


Dave   AB7E

sent from my home computer where I can look up stuff first so I don't 
post erroneous claims




On 6/1/2018 2:03 PM, Josh Fiden wrote:

FT8 is *not* a "sub-noise floor" mode like JT65. You can complete faster on CW. 
It's great that there's so much activity, but far too many crap overdriven signals 
calling relentlessly.

73
Josh W6XU

Sent from my mobile device

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Re: [Elecraft] Boldly OT: 6 meter Sporadic-E season and the FT-8 microjuggernaut

[kstover]

Just the opposite for me.
I make my living in front of a keyboards and four 27" monitors.
The absolute last thing I want to do when I get home or on the weekend is sit 
in front of the computer pounding function keys.
I do use a shack computer obviously but just for logging and such.
I miss the days when a DX contact wasn't a slam bam affair. You could actually 
have a conversation and maybe learn something.

I think it would be interesting for contest sponsors to ban technology for one 
year. No computer logging, no spotting networks, none of that stuff. Actually 
require a contact to last 2 minutes. I can hear the gagging now. If you can run 
SO2R without a computer doing the beam turning and radio switching and logging 
you are a FULL GROWN MAN AMONGST CHILDREN.

R. Kevin StoverAC0H

ARRL, FISTS, SKCC, NAQCC.
One of the guys that made sneakernet irrelevant, in my little corner of the 
world.
“If it doesn’t work the first time you push the button it won’t work the 
20th…Just stop.”

-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net  On 
Behalf Of KENT TRIMBLE
Sent: Friday, June 1, 2018 5:51 PM
To: Elecraft Reflector 
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Boldly OT: 6 meter Sporadic-E season and the FT-8 
microjuggernaut

What is being overlooked in all of this discussion is that the bulk of today's 
ham population makes its living at a keyboard.

When the bulk of an eight-hour work-day is spent in front of a monitor, it 
should come as no shock that an entire generation will prefer making QSOs with 
keyboard-keys rather than telegraph-keys. For them it requires less skill, less 
time, and less patience . . . precisely the kind of activities most sought by 
millennials.

Everything on this earth evolves, including amateur radio, and evolution has 
never been straight-forward.  It explores, imagines, and experiments.  It 
leaves behind a trail of bad ideas, weird adaptions, and dead-end cul-de-sacs.  
At one time trilobites ruled the oceans.  The oceans did not change, but the 
trilobites went away.

My CW class on Saturday mornings has several IT guys who work for the State of 
Missouri.  They are fascinated by code ... not their kind of code ... Samuel 
F.B.'s kind of code.  They learned it mostly on their own and want to get 
better at it.  They bring in keying projects, they bring in paddle renditions, 
they bring in mini-programming accessories, they keep bugging us to schedule 
forays to the boonies so they can throw wires into trees and "play radio."  No 
one has yet told them such efforts take time, skill, and patience.  Apparently 
they don't care. Why?  Beats me.  Come Monday morning they're back in front of 
their monitors all day.

In Hiram Percy's house are many rooms.

73,

Kent Trimble, K9ZTV
Jefferson City, MO



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Re: [Elecraft] [KX3] Boldly OT: 6 meter Sporadic-E season and the FT-8 microjuggernaut

[Fred Jensen]

"I'm sorry Dave, I can't do that for you."

73,

Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 6/1/2018 2:43 PM, Charlie T wrote:

My computer just kicked me out of the shack with some really scary threats
if I even attempted to "pull the plug" while it was working toward DXCC
(which I already have on 6M SSB) on 50 MHz.

Seems I gave it a tad TOO much control over the station.

Now I'm afraid to even go into the room while the band's open.  The damn
thing has taken over and doing it all, including internet QSL's.

Even the cats are hiding in the basement.

Oh well, there's always Andy Griffith re-runs on the old-time TV channels.

73, Charlie k3ICH



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Re: [Elecraft] Boldly OT: 6 meter Sporadic-E season and the FT-8 microjuggernaut

[KENT TRIMBLE]

What is being overlooked in all of this discussion is that the bulk of 
today's ham population makes its living at a keyboard.


When the bulk of an eight-hour work-day is spent in front of a monitor, 
it should come as no shock that an entire generation will prefer making 
QSOs with keyboard-keys rather than telegraph-keys. For them it requires 
less skill, less time, and less patience . . . precisely the kind of 
activities most sought by millennials.


Everything on this earth evolves, including amateur radio, and evolution 
has never been straight-forward.  It explores, imagines, and 
experiments.  It leaves behind a trail of bad ideas, weird adaptions, 
and dead-end cul-de-sacs.  At one time trilobites ruled the oceans.  The 
oceans did not change, but the trilobites went away.


My CW class on Saturday mornings has several IT guys who work for the 
State of Missouri.  They are fascinated by code ... not their kind of 
code ... Samuel F.B.'s kind of code.  They learned it mostly on their 
own and want to get better at it.  They bring in keying projects, they 
bring in paddle renditions, they bring in mini-programming accessories, 
they keep bugging us to schedule forays to the boonies so they can throw 
wires into trees and "play radio."  No one has yet told them such 
efforts take time, skill, and patience.  Apparently they don't care.  
Why?  Beats me.  Come Monday morning they're back in front of their 
monitors all day.


In Hiram Percy's house are many rooms.

73,

Kent Trimble, K9ZTV
Jefferson City, MO



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[Elecraft] KPA1500 LCD Color

[John Perlick]

I love the backlight color on my K3/K3S and KX3.  I also love my new KPA1500.  
But, why oh why did you change to a blue backlight on the KPA1500?  Dang, I 
love that amber color--reminds me of that faded amber color of those old 
radios, like my RME-45 that I had before my Novice days.  Let me know if you do 
change to Amber! 
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Re: [Elecraft] [KX3] Boldly OT: 6 meter Sporadic-E season and the FT-8 microjuggernaut

[WILLIE BABER]

Stop Dave. Will you stop Dave?  What do you think you are doing, Dave?

--

73, Will, wj9b

CWops #1085
CWA Advisor levels II and III
http://cwops.org/


On Fri, 6/1/18, rich hurd WC3T  wrote:

 Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [KX3] Boldly OT: 6 meter Sporadic-E season and the 
FT-8 microjuggernaut
 To: "Charlie T" 
 Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
 Date: Friday, June 1, 2018, 4:02 PM
 
 Just remember, a computer's
 attention span is exactly as long as itspower
 cord.  ;)
 
 On
 Fri, Jun 1, 2018 at 17:43 Charlie T 
 wrote:
 
 > My computer
 just kicked me out of the shack with some really scary
 threats
 > if I even attempted to
 "pull the plug" while it was working toward
 DXCC
 > (which I already have on 6M SSB)
 on 50 MHz.
 >
 > Seems I
 gave it a tad TOO much control over the station.
 >
 > Now I'm afraid to
 even go into the room while the band's open.  The
 damn
 > thing has taken over and doing it
 all, including internet QSL's.
 >
 > Even the cats are hiding in the
 basement.
 >
 > Oh well,
 there's always Andy Griffith re-runs on the old-time TV
 channels.
 >
 > 73,
 Charlie k3ICH
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 __
 > Elecraft mailing list
 >
 Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
 > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
 > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
 >
 > This list hosted by:
 http://www.qsl.net
 >
 Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
 > Message delivered to r...@wc3t.us
 >
 -- 
 72,
 Rich Hurd / WC3T / DMR: 3142737
 PA Army MARS, Northampton County RACES,
 EPA-ARRL Public Information Officer
 for
 Scouting
 Latitude: 40.761621 Longitude:
 -75.288988  (40°45.68' N 75°17.33' W) Grid:
 *FN20is*
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Re: [Elecraft] [KX3] Boldly OT: 6 meter Sporadic-E season and the FT-8 microjuggernaut

[rich hurd WC3T]

Just remember, a computer's attention span is exactly as long as itspower
cord.  ;)

On Fri, Jun 1, 2018 at 17:43 Charlie T  wrote:

> My computer just kicked me out of the shack with some really scary threats
> if I even attempted to "pull the plug" while it was working toward DXCC
> (which I already have on 6M SSB) on 50 MHz.
>
> Seems I gave it a tad TOO much control over the station.
>
> Now I'm afraid to even go into the room while the band's open.  The damn
> thing has taken over and doing it all, including internet QSL's.
>
> Even the cats are hiding in the basement.
>
> Oh well, there's always Andy Griffith re-runs on the old-time TV channels.
>
> 73, Charlie k3ICH
>
>
>
>
>
> __
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>
-- 
72,
Rich Hurd / WC3T / DMR: 3142737
PA Army MARS, Northampton County RACES, EPA-ARRL Public Information Officer
for Scouting
Latitude: 40.761621 Longitude: -75.288988  (40°45.68' N 75°17.33' W) Grid:
*FN20is*
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Re: [Elecraft] Boldly OT: 6 meter Sporadic-E season and the FT-8 microjuggernaut

[Michael Blake]

Bob, I did not remember that Chicken Little said that!

Michael Blake
k9...@mac.com 






> On Jun 1, 2018, at 4:48 PM, Bob McGraw K4TAX  wrote:
> 
> Be it CW, RTTY, PSK, SSB,  JT65 or other modes, today's computer integration 
> into the ham shack as produced many automated contacts with little to no 
> personal intervention.   Where as one says FT-8 mode is used to rack up 
> countrieswhat about the automated CQ's from memory keyers in CW mode 
> with the follow up always being a 599 report, or RTTY contacts structured 
> with Function Keys for the exchange, and software which supports other like 
> modes.   Even SSB contacts with CQ's in the operators voice with digital 
> voice recorders will often prevail.   Yes, I know it is repetitive calling 
> and it is done to save the voice or fingers, but really, automated is 
> automated and the dreaded computer is the basis, ..not the FT-8 
> software.   As Chicken Little said..."it's everywhere, it's 
> everywhere."
> 
> Just wait until the upcoming Field Day.  The FT-8 operations, with operators 
> trying to modify the data exchange to comply with the reporting and 
> confirmation of contacts for Field Day exchange is surely to be a little more 
> than a "train wreck".   UGH! Banish the thoughts.
> 
> 73
> 
> Bob, K4TAX
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] [KX3] Boldly OT: 6 meter Sporadic-E season and the FT-8 microjuggernaut

[Charlie T]

My computer just kicked me out of the shack with some really scary threats
if I even attempted to "pull the plug" while it was working toward DXCC
(which I already have on 6M SSB) on 50 MHz.

Seems I gave it a tad TOO much control over the station.

Now I'm afraid to even go into the room while the band's open.  The damn
thing has taken over and doing it all, including internet QSL's.

Even the cats are hiding in the basement.

Oh well, there's always Andy Griffith re-runs on the old-time TV channels.

73, Charlie k3ICH





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[Elecraft] KPA1500 Serial Number 207 delivered

[Thomas Schaefer]

A brand new KPA1500 Serial number 207 (ordered 10/16/2017) arrived safely 
today. Great packing job and I was surprised the amp was heavier than the power 
supply. But they are both lighter than I expected. Now I understand the handle 
as they are each light enough to trust the handle.

Regards,

Tom NY4I
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Re: [Elecraft] Boldly OT: 6 meter Sporadic-E season and the FT-8 microjuggernaut

[Randy Farmer]

What you say is true, and as a hard-core contester I take advantage of 
all the automation I can get to maximize my QSO rate.


The distinction is between transmitting and receiving. In receiving, the 
difference is that in CW and SSB my brain is an integral part of the 
process of getting the signal information from audio to log, no silicon 
required or desired. Development and maintenance of the skills required 
to do that accurately and efficiently are what I find most rewarding 
about operating. In that respect, I've been "geek free" since 1964.


73...
Randy, W8FN

On 6/1/2018 3:48 PM, Bob McGraw K4TAX wrote:
Be it CW, RTTY, PSK, SSB,  JT65 or other modes, today's computer 
integration into the ham shack as produced many automated contacts 
with little to no personal intervention.   Where as one says FT-8 mode 
is used to rack up countrieswhat about the automated CQ's from 
memory keyers in CW mode with the follow up always being a 599 report, 
or RTTY contacts structured with Function Keys for the exchange, and 
software which supports other like modes.   Even SSB contacts with 
CQ's in the operators voice with digital voice recorders will often 
prevail.   Yes, I know it is repetitive calling and it is done to save 
the voice or fingers, but really, automated is automated and the 
dreaded computer is the basis, ..not the FT-8 software.   
As Chicken Little said..."it's everywhere, it's everywhere."


Just wait until the upcoming Field Day.  The FT-8 operations, with 
operators trying to modify the data exchange to comply with the 
reporting and confirmation of contacts for Field Day exchange is 
surely to be a little more than a "train wreck".   UGH! Banish the 
thoughts.


73

Bob, K4TAX


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Re: [Elecraft] Boldly OT: 6 meter Sporadic-E season and the FT-8 microjuggernaut

[John Stengrevics]

I worked D41CV on 6 meter FT8 a couple of weeks ago.  He was running 15 watts 
and was -18dB here.  If that’s not sub-noise floor, I don’t know what is.

73,

John
WA1EAZ

> On Jun 1, 2018, at 5:03 PM, Josh Fiden  wrote:
> 
> FT8 is *not* a "sub-noise floor" mode like JT65. You can complete faster on 
> CW. It's great that there's so much activity, but far too many crap 
> overdriven signals calling relentlessly. 
> 
> 73
> Josh W6XU
> 
> Sent from my mobile device
> 
>> 
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] Boldly OT: 6 meter Sporadic-E season and the FT-8 microjuggernaut

[Josh Fiden]

FT8 is *not* a "sub-noise floor" mode like JT65. You can complete faster on CW. 
It's great that there's so much activity, but far too many crap overdriven 
signals calling relentlessly. 

73
Josh W6XU

Sent from my mobile device

> 

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Re: [Elecraft] Boldly OT: 6 meter Sporadic-E season and the FT-8 microjuggernaut

[Bob McGraw K4TAX]

Be it CW, RTTY, PSK, SSB,  JT65 or other modes, today's computer 
integration into the ham shack as produced many automated contacts with 
little to no personal intervention.   Where as one says FT-8 mode is 
used to rack up countrieswhat about the automated CQ's from 
memory keyers in CW mode with the follow up always being a 599 report, 
or RTTY contacts structured with Function Keys for the exchange, and 
software which supports other like modes.   Even SSB contacts with CQ's 
in the operators voice with digital voice recorders will often 
prevail.   Yes, I know it is repetitive calling and it is done to save 
the voice or fingers, but really, automated is automated and the dreaded 
computer is the basis, ..not the FT-8 software.   As Chicken 
Little said..."it's everywhere, it's everywhere."


Just wait until the upcoming Field Day.  The FT-8 operations, with 
operators trying to modify the data exchange to comply with the 
reporting and confirmation of contacts for Field Day exchange is surely 
to be a little more than a "train wreck".   UGH! Banish the thoughts.


73

Bob, K4TAX




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[Elecraft] Boldly OT: 6 meter Sporadic-E season and the FT-8 microjuggernaut

[John Harper]

A panoramic display is a must IMO. Who's where and on what mode are all
readily observable and a click of the mouse puts you where you want to be.
I configured such a system to aid in finding where the DX is listening in a
split p/u but it does double duty in finding the rare (nowadays) CW station.

John AE5X
https://ae5x.blogspot.com


>But I’d like to figure out how those of us who enjoy the occasional
gear-grinding >manual-transmission contact can find each other on this
brave new highway. Ideas?
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Re: [Elecraft] Boldly OT: 6 meter Sporadic-E season and the FT-8 microjuggernaut

[Mike Parkes]

I miss Amtor! Long live ARQ modes. Of course the bands were in better shape
in those days.
Mike AB7RU

On Fri, Jun 1, 2018, 10:00 AM Al Lorona  wrote:

> I wrote an April Fool's article back in like 1999 (I might still be able
> to find it on dejanews) describing a make-believe ARRL contest which was
> totally automated; contesters could come home from work and peruse their
> logs to see what stations their computers had 'worked' that day.  When
> parody becomes reality, it's no longer funny. I'm chagrined that that
> fictitious day appears to have finally arrived.
> FT8 is just a phase. It is the mode du jour, the next in a long parade of
> digital modes that stretches back to AMTOR and packet. This too, shall
> pass, to be replaced with the Next Big Mode, which in turn will pass and be
> replaced. In the meantime, there hasn't been a single CW signal in the
> morning on 40 meters so I can test out my new homebrew FD rig. It's very
> depressing.
> Al W6LX
>
>   From: Wayne Burdick 
>  To: Elecraft Reflector 
> Cc: "k...@yahoogroups.com" ;
> elecraft...@yahoogroups.com
>  Sent: Friday, June 1, 2018 8:47 AM
>  Subject: [Elecraft] Boldly OT: 6 meter Sporadic-E season and the FT-8
> microjuggernaut
>
> At first I thought it was my receiver. Or my antenna farm, limited in
> scale by a pre-nuptial clause. Or noise caused by the zomboid army of
> switching power supplies oozing inexorably into my personal space.
>
> Nope.
>
> It turns out the dearth of CW and SSB signals on 6 meters at the height of
> 2018 Spring Sporadic-E season can be traced to one factor: the 24-hour
> intravenous rave that is FT-8.
>
> Yeah, I get the whole sub-noise-floor-and-not-automated-(wink)-QSO thing.
> But I’d like to figure out how those of us who enjoy the occasional
> gear-grinding manual-transmission contact can find each other on this brave
> new highway. Ideas?
>
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
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>
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[Elecraft] FS: Loaded K2/100

[T Witherspoon]

Hi, Group,

I've recently decided to part with my K2/100. It has the following options:
KPA100 K2/100, K160RX 160M, KDSP2, KNB2 and KSB2.
It has the latest firmware and appears to have all current mods.

I actually posted photos and a mini tribute to this radio (and a number of
Elecraft radios) on my blog:
https://swling.com/blog/2018/06/the-evolution-of-a-radio-shack-and-parting-ways-with-my-elecraft-k2-100/

I'll be taking the K2/100 to the Winston Salem, NC, hamfest tomorrow.

Cheers & 73,
Thomas
K4SWL
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Re: [Elecraft] Boldly OT: 6 meter Sporadic-E season and the FT-8 microjuggernaut

[David Gilbert]

I think it's way too simplistic to dismiss FT8 as being merely a phase.  
I haven't tried it yet, but it seems to me that FT8 contacts have 
similar appeal to folks who try to rack up as many countries or other 
entities as they can ... where having a chat isn't the main intent.  
I've made a ton of CW contacts where all I had to do was copy a callsign 
and push a button on my keyboard to send my info.  I doubt you can make 
a strong case that those were much different than an FT8 contact.


It is certainly likely that some other mode will eventually take it's 
place, but I don't see sub-noisefloor modes ever going away. They simply 
have too much benefit for hams with antenna and/or power restrictions.  
Besides, I could probably argue that exploring new modes is well within 
the spirit of ham radio ... something you seem to have forgotten.


Dave   AB7E



On 6/1/2018 9:59 AM, Al Lorona wrote:

I wrote an April Fool's article back in like 1999 (I might still be able to 
find it on dejanews) describing a make-believe ARRL contest which was totally 
automated; contesters could come home from work and peruse their logs to see 
what stations their computers had 'worked' that day.  When parody becomes 
reality, it's no longer funny. I'm chagrined that that fictitious day appears 
to have finally arrived.
FT8 is just a phase. It is the mode du jour, the next in a long parade of 
digital modes that stretches back to AMTOR and packet. This too, shall pass, to 
be replaced with the Next Big Mode, which in turn will pass and be replaced. In 
the meantime, there hasn't been a single CW signal in the morning on 40 meters 
so I can test out my new homebrew FD rig. It's very depressing.
Al W6LX

   From: Wayne Burdick 
  To: Elecraft Reflector 
Cc: "k...@yahoogroups.com" ; elecraft...@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Friday, June 1, 2018 8:47 AM
  Subject: [Elecraft] Boldly OT: 6 meter Sporadic-E season and the FT-8 
microjuggernaut

At first I thought it was my receiver. Or my antenna farm, limited in scale by a pre-nuptial clause. Or noise caused by the zomboid army of switching power supplies oozing inexorably into my personal space.


Nope.

It turns out the dearth of CW and SSB signals on 6 meters at the height of 2018 
Spring Sporadic-E season can be traced to one factor: the 24-hour intravenous 
rave that is FT-8.

Yeah, I get the whole sub-noise-floor-and-not-automated-(wink)-QSO thing. But 
I’d like to figure out how those of us who enjoy the occasional gear-grinding 
manual-transmission contact can find each other on this brave new highway. 
Ideas?

Wayne
N6KR

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Re: [Elecraft] Boldly OT: 6 meter Sporadic-E season and the FT-8 microjuggernaut

[Jim Brown]

On 6/1/2018 9:59 AM, Al Lorona wrote:

I wrote an April Fool's article back in like 1999 (I might still be able to 
find it on dejanews) describing a make-believe ARRL contest which was totally 
automated; contesters could come home from work and peruse their logs to see 
what stations their computers had 'worked' that day.  When parody becomes 
reality, it's no longer funny. I'm chagrined that that fictitious day appears 
to have finally arrived.


I suspect you haven't used any of the WSJT modes. Operator skill and 
experience significantly increases the likelihood of completing QSOs, 
especially QSOs with stations that you want to work. Indeed, auto 
sequencing often gets in the way of that, responding to calls from 
locals when DX (or stations in rare grids) are calling you.


73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] Boldly OT: 6 meter Sporadic-E season and the FT-8 microjuggernaut

[Carl Yaffey]

I usually check the CW area and the SSB area before hitting FT8. Sometimes call 
a few CQs. Crickets. . . . .

> On Jun 1, 2018, at 11:46 AM, Wayne Burdick  wrote:
> 
> At first I thought it was my receiver. Or my antenna farm, limited in scale 
> by a pre-nuptial clause. Or noise caused by the zomboid army of switching 
> power supplies oozing inexorably into my personal space.
> 
> Nope. 
> 
> It turns out the dearth of CW and SSB signals on 6 meters at the height of 
> 2018 Spring Sporadic-E season can be traced to one factor: the 24-hour 
> intravenous rave that is FT-8.
> 
> Yeah, I get the whole sub-noise-floor-and-not-automated-(wink)-QSO thing. But 
> I’d like to figure out how those of us who enjoy the occasional gear-grinding 
> manual-transmission contact can find each other on this brave new highway. 
> Ideas?
> 
> Wayne
> N6KR
> 
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Carl Yaffey  K8NU
Recording studio.
cyaffeyno_s...@gmail.com 
614 268 6353, Columbus OH
http://www.carl-yaffey.com
http://www.grassahol.com
http://www.bluesswing.com

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Re: [Elecraft] Boldly OT: 6 meter Sporadic-E season and the FT-8 microjuggernaut

[Tim N9PUZ]

I can appreciate the technology behind modes such as FT-8 but for me,
regardless of whether it be CW, Phone, or a digital mode a meaningful QSO
results in me knowing some small amount of information about another ham
that I didn't know otherwise. Clicking on a call sign and then, mostly
automatically, having the computers complete the QSO just doesn't get my
motor running.

Tim N9PUZ

On Fri, Jun 1, 2018 at 11:59 AM, Al Lorona  wrote:

> I wrote an April Fool's article back in like 1999 (I might still be able
> to find it on dejanews) describing a make-believe ARRL contest which was
> totally automated; contesters could come home from work and peruse their
> logs to see what stations their computers had 'worked' that day.  When
> parody becomes reality, it's no longer funny. I'm chagrined that that
> fictitious day appears to have finally arrived.
> FT8 is just a phase. It is the mode du jour, the next in a long parade of
> digital modes that stretches back to AMTOR and packet. This too, shall
> pass, to be replaced with the Next Big Mode, which in turn will pass and be
> replaced. In the meantime, there hasn't been a single CW signal in the
> morning on 40 meters so I can test out my new homebrew FD rig. It's very
> depressing.
> Al W6LX
>
>   From: Wayne Burdick 
>  To: Elecraft Reflector 
> Cc: "k...@yahoogroups.com" ;
> elecraft...@yahoogroups.com
>  Sent: Friday, June 1, 2018 8:47 AM
>  Subject: [Elecraft] Boldly OT: 6 meter Sporadic-E season and the FT-8
> microjuggernaut
>
> At first I thought it was my receiver. Or my antenna farm, limited in
> scale by a pre-nuptial clause. Or noise caused by the zomboid army of
> switching power supplies oozing inexorably into my personal space.
>
> Nope.
>
> It turns out the dearth of CW and SSB signals on 6 meters at the height of
> 2018 Spring Sporadic-E season can be traced to one factor: the 24-hour
> intravenous rave that is FT-8.
>
> Yeah, I get the whole sub-noise-floor-and-not-automated-(wink)-QSO thing.
> But I’d like to figure out how those of us who enjoy the occasional
> gear-grinding manual-transmission contact can find each other on this brave
> new highway. Ideas?
>
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
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Re: [Elecraft] Boldly OT: 6 meter Sporadic-E season and the FT-8 microjuggernaut

[Al Lorona]

I wrote an April Fool's article back in like 1999 (I might still be able to 
find it on dejanews) describing a make-believe ARRL contest which was totally 
automated; contesters could come home from work and peruse their logs to see 
what stations their computers had 'worked' that day.  When parody becomes 
reality, it's no longer funny. I'm chagrined that that fictitious day appears 
to have finally arrived.
FT8 is just a phase. It is the mode du jour, the next in a long parade of 
digital modes that stretches back to AMTOR and packet. This too, shall pass, to 
be replaced with the Next Big Mode, which in turn will pass and be replaced. In 
the meantime, there hasn't been a single CW signal in the morning on 40 meters 
so I can test out my new homebrew FD rig. It's very depressing.
Al W6LX

  From: Wayne Burdick 
 To: Elecraft Reflector  
Cc: "k...@yahoogroups.com" ; elecraft...@yahoogroups.com
 Sent: Friday, June 1, 2018 8:47 AM
 Subject: [Elecraft] Boldly OT: 6 meter Sporadic-E season and the FT-8 
microjuggernaut
   
At first I thought it was my receiver. Or my antenna farm, limited in scale by 
a pre-nuptial clause. Or noise caused by the zomboid army of switching power 
supplies oozing inexorably into my personal space.

Nope. 

It turns out the dearth of CW and SSB signals on 6 meters at the height of 2018 
Spring Sporadic-E season can be traced to one factor: the 24-hour intravenous 
rave that is FT-8.

Yeah, I get the whole sub-noise-floor-and-not-automated-(wink)-QSO thing. But 
I’d like to figure out how those of us who enjoy the occasional gear-grinding 
manual-transmission contact can find each other on this brave new highway. 
Ideas?

Wayne
N6KR

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Re: [Elecraft] [KX3] Boldly OT: 6 meter Sporadic-E season and the FT-8 microjuggernaut

[Jim Brown]

On 6/1/2018 9:00 AM, Michael Blake wrote:

I believe the main selling point is that you can work DXCC in short time with 
zero personal involvement:)


As I understand it, FT8 was developed primarily with 6M E-skip in mind, 
because an older weak signal mode, JT65 took so long that a double hop 
opening had faded before a QSO could be completed.


I chase 6M grids. Last season, I worked >140 grids, 40 of which were new 
ones. That's not easy to do from the west coast when you already have 
350 confirmed. 13 were JT65 or JT9, 14 were FT8, 10 were MSK144, 3 were 
CW, and 1 was SSB. When you reach that level, the grids you're missing 
are mostly those with low population density. A relatively small number 
of hams working 6M know CW, and all of the WSJT modes are 20 dB or more 
better than SSB. So FT8, by virtue of its new popularity, is lighting up 
a bunch of grids that were otherwise not available for marginal conditions.


In two strong openings about ten days ago, I worked more than a dozen JA 
stations in 9 grids!  All but one has already been confirmed in LOTW. 
That's another strong point -- in general, those who use digital modes 
are FAR more likely to be on LOTW, which saves a lot of postage if 
you're chasing awards.


73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] Keep getting BAT Err message

[Bob G3PJT]

Just retested all the batteries individually to check they are still OK 
after charging and they seem fine.


Thanks for all the help

73 Bob G3PJT


On 01/06/2018 16:55, Mark wrote:

Re:  "...batteries were quite discharged..."


Bob,


Glad you got things working.


Keep in mind that if any cell was discharged below 1 volt, there is a 
likely chance that it has been damaged and cannot be recharged 
successfully.  That is why the KX3 shuts down at 8 volts, to protect 
the cells (1V per cell X 8 cells = 8V).  That is also why it is 
important to use Low Self Discharge (LSD) cells.  Non-LSD cells will 
continue to self-discharge below that 1V level, destroying themselves.



Mark

KE6BB



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Re: [Elecraft] [KX3] Boldly OT: 6 meter Sporadic-E season and the FT-8 microjuggernaut

[Randy Farmer]

The "instant gratification" factor is still alive and well, now fueled 
by all manner of digital gadgets. I'm a dinosaur, I suppose, but somehow 
I've never been able to warm up to any kind of radio communication 
technique for which my gray matter is not part of the demodulation chain 
(this includes RTTY). I don't even use telnet spots when I'm contesting. 
The idea of an overnight DXCC without intervention of carbon-based life 
forms leaves me cold, and is tantamount to fishing with dynamite in my eyes.


73...
Randy, W8FN (ex-WA9VZM)

On 6/1/2018 11:00 AM, Michael Blake wrote:

To add insult to injury the signals are not even below the noise floor.  Only 
when calculated against a 3 KHz bandwidth.  You can clearly see signals on the 
P3 that are reporting -25 snr within WSJT-X.

I believe the main selling point is that you can work DXCC in short time with 
zero personal involvement :)

Michael Blake
k9...@mac.com 


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Re: [Elecraft] [KX3] Boldly OT: 6 meter Sporadic-E season and the FT-8 microjuggernaut

[Michael Blake]

To add insult to injury the signals are not even below the noise floor.  Only 
when calculated against a 3 KHz bandwidth.  You can clearly see signals on the 
P3 that are reporting -25 snr within WSJT-X.

I believe the main selling point is that you can work DXCC in short time with 
zero personal involvement :)

Michael Blake
k9...@mac.com 






> On Jun 1, 2018, at 11:53 AM, David F. Reed  wrote:
> 
> I agree; the FT-8 thing has had a lot of negative impact; some of the other
> modes that take longer, but are weak signal modes were far less
> devastating; people used lower power and got along more or less without
> interfering too much except with other JT modes...
> I think the quick turn part of FT8 contributed to its rapid growth, and the
> use of it with high power made it worse.
> 
> I am back to longing for a simple CW contact at a leisurely pace... Back to
> my KX2 (serial number 72!) for a little fun on 30 M.
> 
> 73 de Dave, W5SV
> 
> On Fri, Jun 1, 2018 at 10:46 AM, Wayne Burdick n...@elecraft.com [KX3] <
> kx3-nore...@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
> 
>> At first I thought it was my receiver. Or my antenna farm, limited in
>> scale by a pre-nuptial clause. Or noise caused by the zomboid army of
>> switching power supplies oozing inexorably into my personal space.
>> 
>> Nope.
>> 
>> It turns out the dearth of CW and SSB signals on 6 meters at the height of
>> 2018 Spring Sporadic-E season can be traced to one factor: the 24-hour
>> intravenous rave that is FT-8.
>> 
>> Yeah, I get the whole sub-noise-floor-and-not-automated-(wink)-QSO thing.
>> But I’d like to figure out how those of us who enjoy the occasional
>> gear-grinding manual-transmission contact can find each other on this brave
>> new highway. Ideas?
>> 
>> Wayne
>> N6KR
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Posted by: Wayne Burdick 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Yahoo Groups Links
>> 
>> <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/KX3/
>> 
>> <*> Your email settings:
>>Individual Email | Traditional
>> 
>> <*> To change settings online go to:
>>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/KX3/join
>>(Yahoo! ID required)
>> 
>> <*> To change settings via email:
>>kx3-dig...@yahoogroups.com
>>kx3-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com
>> 
>> <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>>kx3-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com
>> 
>> <*> Your use of Yahoo Groups is subject to:
>>https://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/
>> 
>> 
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Re: [Elecraft] Keep getting BAT Err message

[Mark via Elecraft]

Re:  "...batteries were quite discharged..."

Bob,

Glad you got things working.

Keep in mind that if any cell was discharged below 1 volt, there is a likely 
chance that it has been damaged and cannot be recharged successfully.  That is 
why the KX3 shuts down at 8 volts, to protect the cells (1V per cell X 8 cells 
= 8V).  That is also why it is important to use Low Self Discharge (LSD) cells. 
 Non-LSD cells will continue to self-discharge below that 1V level, destroying 
themselves.

Mark
KE6BB

null
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Re: [Elecraft] [KX3] Boldly OT: 6 meter Sporadic-E season and the FT-8 microjuggernaut

[David F. Reed]

I agree; the FT-8 thing has had a lot of negative impact; some of the other
modes that take longer, but are weak signal modes were far less
devastating; people used lower power and got along more or less without
interfering too much except with other JT modes...
I think the quick turn part of FT8 contributed to its rapid growth, and the
use of it with high power made it worse.

I am back to longing for a simple CW contact at a leisurely pace... Back to
my KX2 (serial number 72!) for a little fun on 30 M.

73 de Dave, W5SV

On Fri, Jun 1, 2018 at 10:46 AM, Wayne Burdick n...@elecraft.com [KX3] <
kx3-nore...@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

> At first I thought it was my receiver. Or my antenna farm, limited in
> scale by a pre-nuptial clause. Or noise caused by the zomboid army of
> switching power supplies oozing inexorably into my personal space.
>
> Nope.
>
> It turns out the dearth of CW and SSB signals on 6 meters at the height of
> 2018 Spring Sporadic-E season can be traced to one factor: the 24-hour
> intravenous rave that is FT-8.
>
> Yeah, I get the whole sub-noise-floor-and-not-automated-(wink)-QSO thing.
> But I’d like to figure out how those of us who enjoy the occasional
> gear-grinding manual-transmission contact can find each other on this brave
> new highway. Ideas?
>
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
>
>
> 
> Posted by: Wayne Burdick 
> 
>
>
> 
>
> Yahoo Groups Links
>
> <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/KX3/
>
> <*> Your email settings:
> Individual Email | Traditional
>
> <*> To change settings online go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/KX3/join
> (Yahoo! ID required)
>
> <*> To change settings via email:
> kx3-dig...@yahoogroups.com
> kx3-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com
>
> <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> kx3-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com
>
> <*> Your use of Yahoo Groups is subject to:
> https://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/
>
>
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[Elecraft] Boldly OT: 6 meter Sporadic-E season and the FT-8 microjuggernaut

[Wayne Burdick]

At first I thought it was my receiver. Or my antenna farm, limited in scale by 
a pre-nuptial clause. Or noise caused by the zomboid army of switching power 
supplies oozing inexorably into my personal space.

Nope. 

It turns out the dearth of CW and SSB signals on 6 meters at the height of 2018 
Spring Sporadic-E season can be traced to one factor: the 24-hour intravenous 
rave that is FT-8.

Yeah, I get the whole sub-noise-floor-and-not-automated-(wink)-QSO thing. But 
I’d like to figure out how those of us who enjoy the occasional gear-grinding 
manual-transmission contact can find each other on this brave new highway. 
Ideas?

Wayne
N6KR

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Re: [Elecraft] Keep getting BAT Err message

[Bob G3PJT]

Thanks very helpful. I just found the problem it was that the batteries were 
quite discharged and my charger PSU was a touch low in voltage. Seems OK now.
 
73 and thanks again
Bob G3PJT

Sent by Ipad


> On 31 May 2018, at 22:06, Don Wilhelm  wrote:
> 
> Bob,
> 
> Read the BAT ERR description on page 4 of the KXBC3 manual.
> 
> You may have to remove the batteries and check the terminal voltage of each 
> one with your DMM to determine if you have a bad one, or if all are possibly 
> fully charged.
> 
> Reloading software will not make any difference, but likely will not hurt 
> anything either.
> 
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
> 
>> On 5/31/2018 4:51 PM, Bob G3PJT wrote:
>> When I try to charge the battery I get Bat err message and charging is
>> terminated. I have reloaded s/ware etc but no change.

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