Re: [Elecraft] Fw: CQ WW DX Contest CW 2011 - Unofficial claimed scores
It would be interesting to hear if a recording of this coming out of the back of the K3 is the same as what is being heard at the headphone or speaker jack. Obviously it should be. Mike W0MU W0MU-1 CC Cluster w0mu.net On 12/4/2011 6:25 PM, David Gilbert wrote: > Of course Elecraft owes us an explanation. Thankfully Eric just > attempted to do exactly that, but why on earth would you think > otherwise?? The rig distorts signals in normal operation, and it is > definitely a problem for many competent contesters even if you don't > fall into that category. The list of top scoring contesters and serious > DXpeditioners who have stepped forward on this issue is getting pretty > large ... AND THEY ALL SAY THE SAME THING. And here's a bit of > enlightenment for you ... the guy who started this thread (KE7X) is the > guy who writes and sells the most comprehensive manual on the K3. > > There are good reasons why simply turning off the AGC is not a good > solution when running a pileup, not the least of which is the > possibility to blow the output IC as some users have experienced when a > strong caller suddenly shows up. Besides, I don't recall anyone saying > that turning off the AGC was a definitive fix for the problem, and some > have openly said that it isn't. If it WAS a fix, I suspect that > Elecraft would be able to address the issue with software and I happen > to know that they have already said they haven't been able to. > > As far as more clearly defining the problem is concerned, here's what is > probably needed: > > a. At least five or six independent high purity signals within a narrow > frequency range. I typically use a 250 Hz 8-pole filter with DSP set to > 300 Hz when contesting, but as Eric pointed out many callers are almost > zero beat with each other. The signals need to be such that sum and > difference products overlap with other signals within the same passband. > > b. The signals need to be injected into the K3 front end with variable > attenuation and lots of isolation between them so that the test isn't > colored by the possibility of one signal source pulling the others. > > c. The signals need to be keyed, preferably at different speeds from > each other. Constant tones won't cut it. > > d. Assuming that the audio from the K3 was fed into a high quality > computer sound card, it probably would require some piece of software to > analyze the recorded wav file to quantify the relative level of the > undesired products relative to the pure tone inputs. I don't think > simply viewing on a spectrum analyzer would show anything because of the > timing dynamics of keying. > > Now then, how many hams do you think have the necessary resources to > recreate those kinds of conditions? > > At one point I considered using a program like CW Player to record > several different CW streams close in frequency, merge them, and then > feed them into the mic input of a second rig nearby driving a dummy > load. I didn't follow through on it because the was no way I could > quantify the possible mixing caused by the second rig before signals > ever got to the K3, but does that sound like someone who is simply too > lazy to turn off the AGC??? > > I'm glad to hear that Elecraft recognizes this as a problem and I am > anxiously looking forward to whatever they find. > > For the record, my parameters that I use for CW are: > > AGC DCY = SOFT > AGC HLD = 0.20 > AGC PLS = NOR > AGC SLP = 000 > AGC THR = 008 > AGC-F = 140 > AGC-S = 030 > > I mostly use AGC FAST for contests but change as needed. I never use NR > or NB at all ... ever. > > Dave AB7E > > > On 12/4/2011 1:08 PM, Grant Youngman wrote: >> What I find most bothersome about these rants, is that somehow certain of >> the owner class seems to think that Elecraft OWES them a solution or an >> explanation. As though "mush" is enough of a description for a DSP wizard >> to have an epiphany and write a few lines of code and fix the problem, which >> is ill defined and probably difficult to reproduce in the lab. >> >> More telling is that it has been pointed out that turning off AGC eliminates >> the effects. I don't know about these guys, but turning off AGC when the >> issue is recognized -- since they can clearly recognize it -- sounds like a >> far more sane and reasonable solution than blaming their contest scores and >> apparent 'embarrassment' on 'mush' and trying to get some other radio vendor >> to fix whatever problem shows up in THAT radio. >> >> Isn't it reasonable to assume that a 'top contester' should know how to >> utilize his equipment beyond turning it on and twisting the dial? Geez. >> >> Grant/NQ5T >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Dec 4, 2011, at 1:44 PM, Mike Fatchett W0MU wrote: >> >>> I am glad Elecraft is attempting to isolate this with more scientific >>> data instead of anecdotal comments. Did anyone bother to record any of >>> the mushiness they are describing? Use the line out and an aud
Re: [Elecraft] Fw: CQ WW DX Contest CW 2011 - Unofficial claimed scores
Of course Elecraft owes us an explanation. Thankfully Eric just attempted to do exactly that, but why on earth would you think otherwise?? The rig distorts signals in normal operation, and it is definitely a problem for many competent contesters even if you don't fall into that category. The list of top scoring contesters and serious DXpeditioners who have stepped forward on this issue is getting pretty large ... AND THEY ALL SAY THE SAME THING. And here's a bit of enlightenment for you ... the guy who started this thread (KE7X) is the guy who writes and sells the most comprehensive manual on the K3. There are good reasons why simply turning off the AGC is not a good solution when running a pileup, not the least of which is the possibility to blow the output IC as some users have experienced when a strong caller suddenly shows up. Besides, I don't recall anyone saying that turning off the AGC was a definitive fix for the problem, and some have openly said that it isn't. If it WAS a fix, I suspect that Elecraft would be able to address the issue with software and I happen to know that they have already said they haven't been able to. As far as more clearly defining the problem is concerned, here's what is probably needed: a. At least five or six independent high purity signals within a narrow frequency range. I typically use a 250 Hz 8-pole filter with DSP set to 300 Hz when contesting, but as Eric pointed out many callers are almost zero beat with each other. The signals need to be such that sum and difference products overlap with other signals within the same passband. b. The signals need to be injected into the K3 front end with variable attenuation and lots of isolation between them so that the test isn't colored by the possibility of one signal source pulling the others. c. The signals need to be keyed, preferably at different speeds from each other. Constant tones won't cut it. d. Assuming that the audio from the K3 was fed into a high quality computer sound card, it probably would require some piece of software to analyze the recorded wav file to quantify the relative level of the undesired products relative to the pure tone inputs. I don't think simply viewing on a spectrum analyzer would show anything because of the timing dynamics of keying. Now then, how many hams do you think have the necessary resources to recreate those kinds of conditions? At one point I considered using a program like CW Player to record several different CW streams close in frequency, merge them, and then feed them into the mic input of a second rig nearby driving a dummy load. I didn't follow through on it because the was no way I could quantify the possible mixing caused by the second rig before signals ever got to the K3, but does that sound like someone who is simply too lazy to turn off the AGC??? I'm glad to hear that Elecraft recognizes this as a problem and I am anxiously looking forward to whatever they find. For the record, my parameters that I use for CW are: AGC DCY = SOFT AGC HLD = 0.20 AGC PLS = NOR AGC SLP = 000 AGC THR = 008 AGC-F = 140 AGC-S = 030 I mostly use AGC FAST for contests but change as needed. I never use NR or NB at all ... ever. Dave AB7E On 12/4/2011 1:08 PM, Grant Youngman wrote: > What I find most bothersome about these rants, is that somehow certain of the > owner class seems to think that Elecraft OWES them a solution or an > explanation. As though "mush" is enough of a description for a DSP wizard to > have an epiphany and write a few lines of code and fix the problem, which is > ill defined and probably difficult to reproduce in the lab. > > More telling is that it has been pointed out that turning off AGC eliminates > the effects. I don't know about these guys, but turning off AGC when the > issue is recognized -- since they can clearly recognize it -- sounds like a > far more sane and reasonable solution than blaming their contest scores and > apparent 'embarrassment' on 'mush' and trying to get some other radio vendor > to fix whatever problem shows up in THAT radio. > > Isn't it reasonable to assume that a 'top contester' should know how to > utilize his equipment beyond turning it on and twisting the dial? Geez. > > Grant/NQ5T > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Dec 4, 2011, at 1:44 PM, Mike Fatchett W0MU wrote: > >> >> I am glad Elecraft is attempting to isolate this with more scientific >> data instead of anecdotal comments. Did anyone bother to record any of >> the mushiness they are describing? Use the line out and an audio >> capture program. I would love to hear what you are hearing. >> >> __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.n
Re: [Elecraft] Fw: CQ WW DX Contest CW 2011 - Unofficial claimed scores
What I find most bothersome about these rants, is that somehow certain of the owner class seems to think that Elecraft OWES them a solution or an explanation. As though "mush" is enough of a description for a DSP wizard to have an epiphany and write a few lines of code and fix the problem, which is ill defined and probably difficult to reproduce in the lab. More telling is that it has been pointed out that turning off AGC eliminates the effects. I don't know about these guys, but turning off AGC when the issue is recognized -- since they can clearly recognize it -- sounds like a far more sane and reasonable solution than blaming their contest scores and apparent 'embarrassment' on 'mush' and trying to get some other radio vendor to fix whatever problem shows up in THAT radio. Isn't it reasonable to assume that a 'top contester' should know how to utilize his equipment beyond turning it on and twisting the dial? Geez. Grant/NQ5T Sent from my iPhone On Dec 4, 2011, at 1:44 PM, Mike Fatchett W0MU wrote: > > > I am glad Elecraft is attempting to isolate this with more scientific > data instead of anecdotal comments. Did anyone bother to record any of > the mushiness they are describing? Use the line out and an audio > capture program. I would love to hear what you are hearing. > > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Fw: CQ WW DX Contest CW 2011 - Unofficial claimed scores
5khz listening split is very small for an SSB pileup as most signals occupy 3kz so a 5khz split allows for little separation. The European and Asian pileups at J6 on 12 and 10m were monstrous yet we worked many stations. If you have 200 people calling in a 5khz range do you really expect to get much more than a letter here or there except for the really loud stations? When the pileup was huge I would simply turn down the power and fewer people would call. Work those off and turn the power back up and work the next wave. On 12/4/11 12:39 PM, LA8AW wrote: > ZK2V seems to have some 'experience' AGC as well. > > Check out his homepage, http://www.zk2v.com/ and read Chris comments from > Nov.4th. > > And he - probably more than anyone else - experience the issue - with > 38500+ QSO's in the log from the DX side since end of October. > > _ > > 73 de LA8AW - Odd-Egil > _ > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Fw: CQ WW DX Contest CW 2011 - Unofficial claimed scores
What was condescending? Hearing loss could be a factor especially with a ham population that is not getting younger. Sorry if you felt slighted. My grandfather could never pass the 20wpm code test because of hearing loss and his description is very similar to many of the comments made here in the forum it all becomes muddled and he was unable to determine how many dits or dahs were sent. Lets eliminate all the easy reasons before diving into the most complex solutions. Hams are always looking for the next best rig. Maybe the new Kenwood will be better at some things but worse at others. There is no perfect rig they all have their ups and downs. I am glad Elecraft is attempting to isolate this with more scientific data instead of anecdotal comments. Did anyone bother to record any of the mushiness they are describing? Use the line out and an audio capture program. I would love to hear what you are hearing. On 12/4/11 11:08 AM, David Gilbert wrote: > > Condescending remarks are not helpful. > > Dave AB7E > > > On 12/4/2011 9:00 AM, Mike Fatchett W0MU wrote: >> Did you try the DSP upgrade? Have you pulled the front panel off and >> cleaned the contacts with Deoxit? >> >> Does age start to factor in to this observation? I know everything in >> the past is always better.Ie we tend to forget how things really >> were. At 47 I have some loss of hearing at certain ranges due to >> issues with my ears as a child. My FT101EE did not sound better than my K3. >> >> On 12/4/11 8:53 AM, Merv Schweigert wrote: >>> Finally someone who hears what I hear, Im sure this thread will bring >>> out the >>> raving crowd of "mine is just fine". >>> I have the exact same problem in pile ups, and would sure like to see the >>> parameters changed to be able to adjust more to move the threshold higher. >>> There was some attempt to "fix" this some time back but it stopped short of >>> actually working, the agc settings came about but they did not go far >>> enough >>> in the adjustment ranges. >>> Also the audio has been a problem for me for the 3 years I have owned >>> the K3, >>> it is rough or raspy sounding especially in a pile up situation, >>> whether its the >>> audio itself or something generated in the radio that comes out sounding >>> like >>> rough audio I do not know. But compared to my old analog radio it sounds >>> harsh. It is very tiring after a contest. I know all the comments on how >>> nice every ones sounds, mine does not, and apparently I am not alone. >>> And no I am not bashing the K3, its my radio of choice, I have tried >>> every setting >>> and every "trick" suggested in the past 3 years and cannot get a >>> satisfactory >>> outcome on audio or AGC pileup management. >>> Thanks Fred I thought I was the only one. 73 Merv K9FD/KH6 Neat site but unfortunately none of the audio clips demonstrate the pileups heard at dx locations like C6AAW. Once again this year the K3s AGC failed to perform adequately for us. I found many times I just had to turn AGC off. Signals were much cleaner and more distinguishable. I think there are two things going on. First, I think the threshold cannot be set high enough. The maximum is around S3 according to my measurements. Thus, when you have a pileup of signals all in the S3, S4, S5 region, which is common, AGC is compressing them together. When AGC is off, these signals are now in a linear region of the transfer curve and can be distinguished more easily. Second, and this is hard for me to judge since it has been a while since I've used an analog audio processing radio like the TS850, the audio doesn't sound "good". I dunno. I think there is an inherent harshness(?) to digitally produced audio as compared to analog audio. I'm not an audio guy, for sure. Sadly, I suspect top contesters are beginning to look for another radio to replace the K3 :-( 73, Fred KE7X/C6AKX/C6AAW > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Fw: CQ WW DX Contest CW 2011 - Unofficial claimed scores
ZK2V seems to have some 'experience' AGC as well. Check out his homepage, http://www.zk2v.com/ and read Chris comments from Nov.4th. And he - probably more than anyone else - experience the issue - with 38500+ QSO's in the log from the DX side since end of October. _ 73 de LA8AW - Odd-Egil _ __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Fw: CQ WW DX Contest CW 2011 - Unofficial claimed scores
I sort of thought I was the only one who noticed this. Weak stations in Missouri don't generate pileups, so I encounter this only in certain situations when a lot of U.S. stations are trying to work a DX station on or around his frequency. Recently there have been quite a few situations when the DX station is about 1 s-unit stronger than the callers, but even so it the mush makes it hard or impossible to tell who he's answering. I've found it frustrating because it's happened with A52PP and XW3DT, important DX that is rarely heard in this part of the country. Because it happens only occasionally, I didn't consider Fred's diagnosis of the problem; I just figured it was one of the travails of our mortal existence. But those contesters who encounter it over and over are in a much better position to judge. I would love it if the K3's performance in this situation could magically ameliorate the problem. Tony KT0NY -- http://www.isb.edu/faculty/facultydir.aspx?ddlFaculty=352 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Fw: CQ WW DX Contest CW 2011 - Unofficial claimed scores
Condescending remarks are not helpful. Dave AB7E On 12/4/2011 9:00 AM, Mike Fatchett W0MU wrote: > Did you try the DSP upgrade? Have you pulled the front panel off and > cleaned the contacts with Deoxit? > > Does age start to factor in to this observation? I know everything in > the past is always better.Ie we tend to forget how things really > were. At 47 I have some loss of hearing at certain ranges due to > issues with my ears as a child. My FT101EE did not sound better than my K3. > > On 12/4/11 8:53 AM, Merv Schweigert wrote: >> Finally someone who hears what I hear, Im sure this thread will bring >> out the >> raving crowd of "mine is just fine". >> I have the exact same problem in pile ups, and would sure like to see the >> parameters changed to be able to adjust more to move the threshold higher. >> There was some attempt to "fix" this some time back but it stopped short of >> actually working, the agc settings came about but they did not go far >> enough >> in the adjustment ranges. >> Also the audio has been a problem for me for the 3 years I have owned >> the K3, >> it is rough or raspy sounding especially in a pile up situation, >> whether its the >> audio itself or something generated in the radio that comes out sounding >> like >> rough audio I do not know. But compared to my old analog radio it sounds >> harsh. It is very tiring after a contest. I know all the comments on how >> nice every ones sounds, mine does not, and apparently I am not alone. >> And no I am not bashing the K3, its my radio of choice, I have tried >> every setting >> and every "trick" suggested in the past 3 years and cannot get a >> satisfactory >> outcome on audio or AGC pileup management. >> Thanks Fred I thought I was the only one. 73 Merv K9FD/KH6 >>> Neat site but unfortunately none of the audio clips demonstrate the >>> pileups heard at dx locations like C6AAW. Once again this year the K3s >>> AGC failed to perform adequately for us. I found many times I just had >>> to turn AGC off. Signals were much cleaner and more distinguishable. >>> I think there are two things going on. First, I think the threshold >>> cannot be set high enough. The maximum is around S3 according to my >>> measurements. Thus, when you have a pileup of signals all in the S3, S4, >>> S5 region, which is common, AGC is compressing them together. When AGC >>> is off, these signals are now in a linear region of the transfer curve >>> and can be distinguished more easily. Second, and this is hard for me to >>> judge since it has been a while since I've used an analog audio >>> processing radio like the TS850, the audio doesn't sound "good". I >>> dunno. I think there is an inherent harshness(?) to digitally produced >>> audio as compared to analog audio. I'm not an audio guy, for sure. >>> >>> Sadly, I suspect top contesters are beginning to look for another radio >>> to replace the K3 :-( >>> >>> 73, >>> Fred >>> KE7X/C6AKX/C6AAW >>> >>> >>> __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Fw: CQ WW DX Contest CW 2011 - Unofficial claimed scores
Pileups with strong signals are not the problem, at least if you optimize the AGC settings. The K3 works quite well in those situations, in my opinion. It's the pileups with several low level signals that are the problem, and I never use the noise blanker. I don't need to since I'm in a semi-rural location with almost zero noise. I only use one radio and the nearest commercial station of any sort is 20 miles away. The problem is real. Dave AB7E On 12/4/2011 8:48 AM, Mike Fatchett W0MU wrote: > We never saw this at J6 and the pileups were huge. Are you certain that > the radio is not broken in some way? G0DVJ said the K3 was very > impressive in its ability to handle the huge pileups and crowded > conditions. He is probably going to be purchasing one. > > Are you using the noise blanker by chance? What is the build out of > that radio. Was this a multi transmitter operation? If so could it be > the other radio is trashing the K3? We used NQN bandpass filters and > never heard each other. Are you close to any high power AM broadcast > stations? Does this happen on all bands or just some? > > Many times I had to crank in the filters to widths that other radios > could not possibly handle and I worked my way back into my main pile > picking out calls one at a time. The audio was always crystal clear. > > If the K3 can't do it , no radio can. Maybe the FTDX5000 but it is not > a radio that can travel. The TS-590 might if they had bothered to offer > roofing filter options. > > W0MU > > > > On 12/4/11 7:11 AM, Cady, Fred wrote: >> Neat site but unfortunately none of the audio clips demonstrate the >> pileups heard at dx locations like C6AAW. Once again this year the K3s >> AGC failed to perform adequately for us. I found many times I just had >> to turn AGC off. Signals were much cleaner and more distinguishable. >> I think there are two things going on. First, I think the threshold >> cannot be set high enough. The maximum is around S3 according to my >> measurements. Thus, when you have a pileup of signals all in the S3, S4, >> S5 region, which is common, AGC is compressing them together. When AGC >> is off, these signals are now in a linear region of the transfer curve >> and can be distinguished more easily. Second, and this is hard for me to >> judge since it has been a while since I've used an analog audio >> processing radio like the TS850, the audio doesn't sound "good". I >> dunno. I think there is an inherent harshness(?) to digitally produced >> audio as compared to analog audio. I'm not an audio guy, for sure. >> >> Sadly, I suspect top contesters are beginning to look for another radio >> to replace the K3 :-( >> >> 73, >> Fred >> KE7X/C6AKX/C6AAW >> >> >> -----Original Message- >> From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net >> [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Paul VanOveren >> Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2011 6:16 AM >> To: elecraft reflector >> Subject: [Elecraft] Fw: CQ WW DX Contest CW 2011 - Unofficial claimed >> scores >> >> Russian website with claimed scores from last weekend. Very cool video >> embedded from HI3A, with 2 K3"s prominently displayed... you can look up >> your score in the search box, for your ranking in the World, North >> America or just USA >> >> >> Subject: CQ WW DX Contest CW 2011 - Unofficial claimed scores >> >> >> http://pileup.ru/cqww_cw.php?year=2011 >> __ >> Elecraft mailing list >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm >> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net >> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html >> __ >> Elecraft mailing list >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm >> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net >> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Fw: CQ WW DX Contest CW 2011 - Unofficial claimed scores
> Did you try the DSP upgrade? Have you pulled the front panel off and > cleaned the contacts with Deoxit? > Yes to all the above, and those things have nothing to do with the AGC problems, and little if any to do with audio harshness.. my K3 is up to date as it comes. > Does age start to factor in to this observation? I know everything in > the past is always better.Ie we tend to forget how things really > were. At 47 I have some loss of hearing at certain ranges due to > issues with my ears as a child. My FT101EE did not sound better than my K3. > I have the analog radios sitting right beside the K3 so comparison is now today A=B I have them hooked to the same antennas same speakers etc all through switching so can compare apples to apples. I have more hearing loss I am sure at 67 than you do, so my comparison would probably be more critical if I had better hearing. I am talking good analog radios, not some old obsolete boatanchor. 73 Merv > On 12/4/11 8:53 AM, Merv Schweigert wrote: > >> Finally someone who hears what I hear, Im sure this thread will bring >> out the >> raving crowd of "mine is just fine". >> I have the exact same problem in pile ups, and would sure like to see the >> parameters changed to be able to adjust more to move the threshold higher. >> There was some attempt to "fix" this some time back but it stopped short of >> actually working, the agc settings came about but they did not go far >> enough >> in the adjustment ranges. >> Also the audio has been a problem for me for the 3 years I have owned >> the K3, >> it is rough or raspy sounding especially in a pile up situation, >> whether its the >> audio itself or something generated in the radio that comes out sounding >> like >> rough audio I do not know. But compared to my old analog radio it sounds >> harsh. It is very tiring after a contest. I know all the comments on how >> nice every ones sounds, mine does not, and apparently I am not alone. >> And no I am not bashing the K3, its my radio of choice, I have tried >> every setting >> and every "trick" suggested in the past 3 years and cannot get a >> satisfactory >> outcome on audio or AGC pileup management. >> Thanks Fred I thought I was the only one. 73 Merv K9FD/KH6 >> >>> Neat site but unfortunately none of the audio clips demonstrate the >>> pileups heard at dx locations like C6AAW. Once again this year the K3s >>> AGC failed to perform adequately for us. I found many times I just had >>> to turn AGC off. Signals were much cleaner and more distinguishable. >>> I think there are two things going on. First, I think the threshold >>> cannot be set high enough. The maximum is around S3 according to my >>> measurements. Thus, when you have a pileup of signals all in the S3, S4, >>> S5 region, which is common, AGC is compressing them together. When AGC >>> is off, these signals are now in a linear region of the transfer curve >>> and can be distinguished more easily. Second, and this is hard for me to >>> judge since it has been a while since I've used an analog audio >>> processing radio like the TS850, the audio doesn't sound "good". I >>> dunno. I think there is an inherent harshness(?) to digitally produced >>> audio as compared to analog audio. I'm not an audio guy, for sure. >>> >>> Sadly, I suspect top contesters are beginning to look for another radio >>> to replace the K3 :-( >>> >>> 73, >>> Fred >>> KE7X/C6AKX/C6AAW >>> >>> >>> >>> >> __ >> Elecraft mailing list >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm >> Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net >> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html >> > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Fw: CQ WW DX Contest CW 2011 - Unofficial claimed scores
Guys, I believe we should pay attention to Fred Cady, KE7X who is author of The Elecraft K3 Design, Configuration and Operation. He is also a retired Professor of EE. Maybe there is something here which can be defined and sorted. This is an interesting topic for me and I wonder if it is possible to do still better things with the K3. 73 Doug EI2CN -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Jan Erik Holm Sent: 04 December 2011 17:50 To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Fw: CQ WW DX Contest CW 2011 - Unofficial claimed scores Oh by the way, this "thing" is not an audio thing. It is something totally different. Think this issue was discussed last year. There where some leads on it but don´t know the outcome, if any. /Jim SM2EKM --- On 2011-12-04 18:05, Jan Erik Holm wrote: > Indeed! This was reported many many moons ago, also by me. > No fix I guess, just the way the K3 is. > /SM2EKM > On 2011-12-04 15:11, Cady, Fred wrote: >> S5 region, which is common, AGC is compressing them together. When AGC >> is off, these signals are now in a linear region of the transfer curve >> and can be distinguished more easily. Second, and this is hard for me to >> judge since it has been a while since I've used an analog audio >> processing radio like the TS850, the audio doesn't sound "good". I >> dunno. I think there is an inherent harshness(?) to digitally produced >> audio as compared to analog audio. I'm not an audio guy, for sure. >> >> Sadly, I suspect top contesters are beginning to look for another radio >> to replace the K3 :-( >> >> 73, >> Fred >> KE7X/C6AKX/C6AAW __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Fw: CQ WW DX Contest CW 2011 - Unofficial claimed scores
Oh by the way, this "thing" is not an audio thing. It is something totally different. Think this issue was discussed last year. There where some leads on it but don´t know the outcome, if any. /Jim SM2EKM --- On 2011-12-04 18:05, Jan Erik Holm wrote: > Indeed! This was reported many many moons ago, also by me. > No fix I guess, just the way the K3 is. > /SM2EKM > On 2011-12-04 15:11, Cady, Fred wrote: >> S5 region, which is common, AGC is compressing them together. When AGC >> is off, these signals are now in a linear region of the transfer curve >> and can be distinguished more easily. Second, and this is hard for me to >> judge since it has been a while since I've used an analog audio >> processing radio like the TS850, the audio doesn't sound "good". I >> dunno. I think there is an inherent harshness(?) to digitally produced >> audio as compared to analog audio. I'm not an audio guy, for sure. >> >> Sadly, I suspect top contesters are beginning to look for another radio >> to replace the K3 :-( >> >> 73, >> Fred >> KE7X/C6AKX/C6AAW __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Fw: CQ WW DX Contest CW 2011 - Unofficial claimed scores
Indeed! This was reported many many moons ago, also by me. No fix I guess, just the way the K3 is. /SM2EKM On 2011-12-04 15:11, Cady, Fred wrote: > S5 region, which is common, AGC is compressing them together. When AGC > is off, these signals are now in a linear region of the transfer curve > and can be distinguished more easily. Second, and this is hard for me to > judge since it has been a while since I've used an analog audio > processing radio like the TS850, the audio doesn't sound "good". I > dunno. I think there is an inherent harshness(?) to digitally produced > audio as compared to analog audio. I'm not an audio guy, for sure. > > Sadly, I suspect top contesters are beginning to look for another radio > to replace the K3 :-( > > 73, > Fred > KE7X/C6AKX/C6AAW __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Fw: CQ WW DX Contest CW 2011 - Unofficial claimed scores
Did you try the DSP upgrade? Have you pulled the front panel off and cleaned the contacts with Deoxit? Does age start to factor in to this observation? I know everything in the past is always better.Ie we tend to forget how things really were. At 47 I have some loss of hearing at certain ranges due to issues with my ears as a child. My FT101EE did not sound better than my K3. On 12/4/11 8:53 AM, Merv Schweigert wrote: > Finally someone who hears what I hear, Im sure this thread will bring > out the > raving crowd of "mine is just fine". > I have the exact same problem in pile ups, and would sure like to see the > parameters changed to be able to adjust more to move the threshold higher. > There was some attempt to "fix" this some time back but it stopped short of > actually working, the agc settings came about but they did not go far > enough > in the adjustment ranges. > Also the audio has been a problem for me for the 3 years I have owned > the K3, > it is rough or raspy sounding especially in a pile up situation, > whether its the > audio itself or something generated in the radio that comes out sounding > like > rough audio I do not know. But compared to my old analog radio it sounds > harsh. It is very tiring after a contest. I know all the comments on how > nice every ones sounds, mine does not, and apparently I am not alone. > And no I am not bashing the K3, its my radio of choice, I have tried > every setting > and every "trick" suggested in the past 3 years and cannot get a > satisfactory > outcome on audio or AGC pileup management. > Thanks Fred I thought I was the only one. 73 Merv K9FD/KH6 >> Neat site but unfortunately none of the audio clips demonstrate the >> pileups heard at dx locations like C6AAW. Once again this year the K3s >> AGC failed to perform adequately for us. I found many times I just had >> to turn AGC off. Signals were much cleaner and more distinguishable. >> I think there are two things going on. First, I think the threshold >> cannot be set high enough. The maximum is around S3 according to my >> measurements. Thus, when you have a pileup of signals all in the S3, S4, >> S5 region, which is common, AGC is compressing them together. When AGC >> is off, these signals are now in a linear region of the transfer curve >> and can be distinguished more easily. Second, and this is hard for me to >> judge since it has been a while since I've used an analog audio >> processing radio like the TS850, the audio doesn't sound "good". I >> dunno. I think there is an inherent harshness(?) to digitally produced >> audio as compared to analog audio. I'm not an audio guy, for sure. >> >> Sadly, I suspect top contesters are beginning to look for another radio >> to replace the K3 :-( >> >> 73, >> Fred >> KE7X/C6AKX/C6AAW >> >> >> > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Fw: CQ WW DX Contest CW 2011 - Unofficial claimed scores
Finally someone who hears what I hear, Im sure this thread will bring out the raving crowd of "mine is just fine". I have the exact same problem in pile ups, and would sure like to see the parameters changed to be able to adjust more to move the threshold higher. There was some attempt to "fix" this some time back but it stopped short of actually working, the agc settings came about but they did not go far enough in the adjustment ranges. Also the audio has been a problem for me for the 3 years I have owned the K3, it is rough or raspy sounding especially in a pile up situation, whether its the audio itself or something generated in the radio that comes out sounding like rough audio I do not know. But compared to my old analog radio it sounds harsh. It is very tiring after a contest. I know all the comments on how nice every ones sounds, mine does not, and apparently I am not alone. And no I am not bashing the K3, its my radio of choice, I have tried every setting and every "trick" suggested in the past 3 years and cannot get a satisfactory outcome on audio or AGC pileup management. Thanks Fred I thought I was the only one. 73 Merv K9FD/KH6 > Neat site but unfortunately none of the audio clips demonstrate the > pileups heard at dx locations like C6AAW. Once again this year the K3s > AGC failed to perform adequately for us. I found many times I just had > to turn AGC off. Signals were much cleaner and more distinguishable. > I think there are two things going on. First, I think the threshold > cannot be set high enough. The maximum is around S3 according to my > measurements. Thus, when you have a pileup of signals all in the S3, S4, > S5 region, which is common, AGC is compressing them together. When AGC > is off, these signals are now in a linear region of the transfer curve > and can be distinguished more easily. Second, and this is hard for me to > judge since it has been a while since I've used an analog audio > processing radio like the TS850, the audio doesn't sound "good". I > dunno. I think there is an inherent harshness(?) to digitally produced > audio as compared to analog audio. I'm not an audio guy, for sure. > > Sadly, I suspect top contesters are beginning to look for another radio > to replace the K3 :-( > > 73, > Fred > KE7X/C6AKX/C6AAW > > > __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Fw: CQ WW DX Contest CW 2011 - Unofficial claimed scores
We never saw this at J6 and the pileups were huge. Are you certain that the radio is not broken in some way? G0DVJ said the K3 was very impressive in its ability to handle the huge pileups and crowded conditions. He is probably going to be purchasing one. Are you using the noise blanker by chance? What is the build out of that radio. Was this a multi transmitter operation? If so could it be the other radio is trashing the K3? We used NQN bandpass filters and never heard each other. Are you close to any high power AM broadcast stations? Does this happen on all bands or just some? Many times I had to crank in the filters to widths that other radios could not possibly handle and I worked my way back into my main pile picking out calls one at a time. The audio was always crystal clear. If the K3 can't do it , no radio can. Maybe the FTDX5000 but it is not a radio that can travel. The TS-590 might if they had bothered to offer roofing filter options. W0MU On 12/4/11 7:11 AM, Cady, Fred wrote: > Neat site but unfortunately none of the audio clips demonstrate the > pileups heard at dx locations like C6AAW. Once again this year the K3s > AGC failed to perform adequately for us. I found many times I just had > to turn AGC off. Signals were much cleaner and more distinguishable. > I think there are two things going on. First, I think the threshold > cannot be set high enough. The maximum is around S3 according to my > measurements. Thus, when you have a pileup of signals all in the S3, S4, > S5 region, which is common, AGC is compressing them together. When AGC > is off, these signals are now in a linear region of the transfer curve > and can be distinguished more easily. Second, and this is hard for me to > judge since it has been a while since I've used an analog audio > processing radio like the TS850, the audio doesn't sound "good". I > dunno. I think there is an inherent harshness(?) to digitally produced > audio as compared to analog audio. I'm not an audio guy, for sure. > > Sadly, I suspect top contesters are beginning to look for another radio > to replace the K3 :-( > > 73, > Fred > KE7X/C6AKX/C6AAW > > > -Original Message- > From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net > [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Paul VanOveren > Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2011 6:16 AM > To: elecraft reflector > Subject: [Elecraft] Fw: CQ WW DX Contest CW 2011 - Unofficial claimed > scores > > Russian website with claimed scores from last weekend. Very cool video > embedded from HI3A, with 2 K3"s prominently displayed... you can look up > your score in the search box, for your ranking in the World, North > America or just USA > > > Subject: CQ WW DX Contest CW 2011 - Unofficial claimed scores > > > http://pileup.ru/cqww_cw.php?year=2011 > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > __ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] Fw: CQ WW DX Contest CW 2011 - Unofficial claimed scores
Neat site but unfortunately none of the audio clips demonstrate the pileups heard at dx locations like C6AAW. Once again this year the K3s AGC failed to perform adequately for us. I found many times I just had to turn AGC off. Signals were much cleaner and more distinguishable. I think there are two things going on. First, I think the threshold cannot be set high enough. The maximum is around S3 according to my measurements. Thus, when you have a pileup of signals all in the S3, S4, S5 region, which is common, AGC is compressing them together. When AGC is off, these signals are now in a linear region of the transfer curve and can be distinguished more easily. Second, and this is hard for me to judge since it has been a while since I've used an analog audio processing radio like the TS850, the audio doesn't sound "good". I dunno. I think there is an inherent harshness(?) to digitally produced audio as compared to analog audio. I'm not an audio guy, for sure. Sadly, I suspect top contesters are beginning to look for another radio to replace the K3 :-( 73, Fred KE7X/C6AKX/C6AAW -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Paul VanOveren Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2011 6:16 AM To: elecraft reflector Subject: [Elecraft] Fw: CQ WW DX Contest CW 2011 - Unofficial claimed scores Russian website with claimed scores from last weekend. Very cool video embedded from HI3A, with 2 K3"s prominently displayed... you can look up your score in the search box, for your ranking in the World, North America or just USA Subject: CQ WW DX Contest CW 2011 - Unofficial claimed scores http://pileup.ru/cqww_cw.php?year=2011 __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
