Re: [Elecraft] K3 - RX audio degradation with ANF
I agree, in more ways than one, that we are talking apples and oranges here. The code between the devices has similar applications, but a Sabine Feedback Destroyer has multiple instances operating in a dedicated processor with nothing else to do but find the carriers while the K3 ANF is sharing its runtime with lots of other priorities. Another issue is that the ANF cannot remove the audio covered up by the interfering carrier, NOTHING can do this. All ANF can do is throw a notch over the interfering frequency... That is what it does, it cant actually REMOVE the coherent interferance from the incoherent intelligence. I was just at the NAB show where I saw a demonstration of a technology that does extract the underlying audio, which was truly magic. Also saw a demo of a video editing system (Adobe Premiere) that has a similar feature built in. Lots of non real time processing is needed to do this magic, however. If the ANF can be made better, great. I find it acceptable. Not perfect, but acceptable. If making it better doubles the price of the radio, then Im not for it, for what its worth :) -lu-w4lt- Message: 24 Date: Sat, 19 May 2012 16:50:24 -0500 From: W4ATK w4...@bellsouth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 - RX audio degradation with ANF To: Bill b...@w2blc.net Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Message-ID: 74bdcaf3-fca6-44df-a0e5-21728e101...@bellsouth.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I think we may be comparing apples to oranges here. In the K3 digital ANF, the notch filter is looking for coherent signals. The premise is that audio is less coherent than a CW carrier. Thus the ANF finds the coherent CW carrier and notches it out, leaving the remaining audio. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - RX audio degradation with ANF
I hear it. I have always heard it. Its always been there. I think the distortion you are hearing and seeing in the waterfall you looked at is the notch in the audio itself and the ANF routine's hunting around for the frequency to notch as it samples the audio its being fed. Within the audio spectrum of a voice there are many frequencies, and they are constantly changing as speech is being produced. The tone (of the carrier) you are trying to notch also falls within those frequencies. The notch produced by the ANF has a finite width and depth plus or minus several cycles, as you noticed in the waterfall, which has a rise time and a fall time. When that is superimposed over a voice, there is a comb filter like effect in some frequencies adjecent to the tone you are notching as the automatic notch routine samples and then attempts to blank the interfering tone. We are talking about notching audio here, ANF cant magically get rid of just the tone and leave what is being covered up by the tone alone, it has to get rid of ALL the energy in the spectrum occupied by the tone, plus or minus the notch filter width and depth, so there literally is a hole there, and it moves as the voice and the tone mix. You hear the hole, and notice that something is missing. The hole moves around as the interference is blanked and the ANF refreshes its decision at whatever frequency it samples of what it needs to blank. That's why you dont see it in the manual notch, that one does not move around on its own. At least this is my long winded guess to what one hears here. K9YC may have a better way of explaining this than me (Im a duffer, he's a pro at this game). Ive always heard this to a greater or lesser extent in any radio or device that notches audio frequencies automatically. So called feedback destroyers in stage and studio audio have the same function as ANF, I hear this effect on them as well to a greater or lesser extent. They have gotten so good lately that it is barely preceptible, but its there, you can see it on a spectrum analyser. (Google Sabine Adaptive Audio to see a representative device, their older devices sound quite similar to what you hear in the K3 ANF; the newer ones are truly magical!). I dont think that it is *THAT* objectionable... It is there, I hear it, but I know why it is happening. Is it normal? Maybe. Could it be better? Possibly. I find it acceptable. Its a great aural reminder that you have the auto notch turned on! -lu-w4lt- --- -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Tim Tucker Sent: Friday, May 18, 2012 10:57 AM To: Elecraft Reflector Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 - RX audio degradation with ANF ANF is the common use abbreviation for Auto Notch Filter. A lot of rigs use that nomenclature. The K3's ANF on SSB has not worked correctly IMO for several firmware releases. Someone posted a fix a while back that involved resetting back to factory settings, rolling back to a previous firmware, reloading all your settings and then loading the current firmware. That's a lot of work and I was hoping a more elegant fix could be implemented in a firmware update. In my experience, the issue isn't so much extreme distortion on the signal, it's that it doesn't notch the offending signal properly. To reproduce, watch your RX signal with a strong carrier on a waterfall with a computer application like MixW. Turn on the ANF and you'll see that the K3 notches on either side of the offending carrier, but not actually right on the carrier. If you have good ears, you can hear this yourself. The manual notch works fine, of course. I haven't tried the latest beta firmware, so I don't know if this issue has been addressed yet. It needs to be addressed, though. Tim __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - RX audio degradation with ANF
You said, They have gotten so good lately that it is barely preceptible, but its there, you can see it on a spectrum analyser. (Google Sabine Adaptive Audio to see a representative device, their older devices sound quite similar to what you hear in the K3 ANF; the newer ones are truly magical!). Professional musicians are the pickiest sound folks in the world. What the K3 does would be most unacceptable to them and I can say that, for sure, I have never heard similar at any professional music venue. The musicians would strangle the audio tech if it were so. All professional automatic notch filtering used in the music field is done at the what we call the audio level. It is their ONLY level, as they are not working with IFs etc. Hence, I can only assume that the audio level automatic notch filtering found in the K3 is not yet up to par. I say yet as that is the advantage of updates. At some point in the future, the ANF can be brought up to higher standards. In the interim, there are AGC settings that can be varied - resulting in more acceptable listening. Specifically, using AGC SLP level at 2 makes a major improvement to my ears. -- IN GOD I TRUST (but, NOT a single politician) __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - RX audio degradation with ANF
I think we may be comparing apples to oranges here. In the K3 digital ANF, the notch filter is looking for coherent signals. The premise is that audio is less coherent than a CW carrier. Thus the ANF finds the coherent CW carrier and notches it out, leaving the remaining audio. On May 19, 2012, at 4:27 PM, Bill wrote: You said, They have gotten so good lately that it is barely preceptible, but its there, you can see it on a spectrum analyser. (Google Sabine Adaptive Audio to see a representative device, their older devices sound quite similar to what you hear in the K3 ANF; the newer ones are truly magical!). Professional musicians are the pickiest sound folks in the world. What the K3 does would be most unacceptable to them and I can say that, for sure, I have never heard similar at any professional music venue. The musicians would strangle the audio tech if it were so. All professional automatic notch filtering used in the music field is done at the what we call the audio level. It is their ONLY level, as they are not working with IFs etc. Hence, I can only assume that the audio level automatic notch filtering found in the K3 is not yet up to par. I say yet as that is the advantage of updates. At some point in the future, the ANF can be brought up to higher standards. In the interim, there are AGC settings that can be varied - resulting in more acceptable listening. Specifically, using AGC SLP level at 2 makes a major improvement to my ears. -- IN GOD I TRUST (but, NOT a single politician) __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
[Elecraft] K3 - RX audio degradation with ANF
I am reposting this question, as I received no responses the first time: I generally only use the ANF when it is needed. I do not run it all the time. The reason I do not run the ANF all the time is a slight degradation of the quality of the SSB received audio when it is engaged. Although it does not interfere with the intelligibility of the audio - it does introduce a fuzzy aspect to otherwise armchair copy. Of note: On my Kenwood TS-480, I leave the ANF (Beat Cancel in Kenwood speak) on at all times. It does its job as well as the K3 - and is without the degradation factor. Any suggestions regarding the use of the ANF that I would benefit from? Thanks, Bill W2BLC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - RX audio degradation with ANF
Bill, Please enlighten me - I have searched through the K3 manual, and do not find anything labeled ANF If you would please give whatever you are trying to run the same label used in the K3 manual perhaps we can provide some answer. 73, Don W3FPR On 5/18/2012 7:52 AM, Bill wrote: I am reposting this question, as I received no responses the first time: I generally only use the ANF when it is needed. I do not run it all the time. The reason I do not run the ANF all the time is a slight degradation of the quality of the SSB received audio when it is engaged. Although it does not interfere with the intelligibility of the audio - it does introduce a fuzzy aspect to otherwise armchair copy. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - RX audio degradation with ANF
My reaction was the same - I think he's referring to Automatic Notch Filter. Art - N4PJ On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 8:12 AM, Don Wilhelm w3...@embarqmail.com wrote: Bill, Please enlighten me - I have searched through the K3 manual, and do not find anything labeled ANF If you would please give whatever you are trying to run the same label used in the K3 manual perhaps we can provide some answer. 73, Don W3FPR On 5/18/2012 7:52 AM, Bill wrote: I am reposting this question, as I received no responses the first time: I generally only use the ANF when it is needed. I do not run it all the time. The reason I do not run the ANF all the time is a slight degradation of the quality of the SSB received audio when it is engaged. Although it does not interfere with the intelligibility of the audio - it does introduce a fuzzy aspect to otherwise armchair copy. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - RX audio degradation with ANF
That would be the button labeled as NTCH. It is described on page 25 of the owner's manual as Auto Notch. Bill W2BLC __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - RX audio degradation with ANF
*Don, your not alone but I guessed it was Auto-Notch Filter..:-) Bill is correct though, there is distortion when I have AGC=12 and SLP=2 but if I go to AGC=8 it appears to be almost gone. Not sure why this is? 73's Gary * On 18 May 2012 22:12, Don Wilhelm w3...@embarqmail.com wrote: Bill, Please enlighten me - I have searched through the K3 manual, and do not find anything labeled ANF If you would please give whatever you are trying to run the same label used in the K3 manual perhaps we can provide some answer. 73, Don W3FPR On 5/18/2012 7:52 AM, Bill wrote: I am reposting this question, as I received no responses the first time: I generally only use the ANF when it is needed. I do not run it all the time. The reason I do not run the ANF all the time is a slight degradation of the quality of the SSB received audio when it is engaged. Although it does not interfere with the intelligibility of the audio - it does introduce a fuzzy aspect to otherwise armchair copy. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html -- Gary VK4FD - Motorhome Mobile Elecraft Equipment K3 #679, KPA-500 #018 Living the dream!!! __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
[Elecraft] K3 - RX audio degradation with ANF
The Auto Notch of the K3 is outside the AGC loop and therefor will notch the carrier NOTE but NOT the carrier. Many foreign rigs have the Auto Notch inside the AGC loop and this results in optimal operation with no distortion. This may have something to do with down conversion receivers such as the K3, and I think there have been discussions on this which you can bring up from the list archives. In my opinion this is the one weakness of the K3. Now, with the new AGC threshold I do not get the distortion as before, as the Auto Notch is not nearly as aggressive. I do not hear distortion with the notch on at this time. The Auto Notch is a bit slower to engage but the landing is much softer in as far as distortion, or the hollow sounding audio which was the case before MCU 4.51. I used to own an Icom 7800 and 7700. Icoms Auto Notch is superb but is inside the AGC loop. I noticed both Ten Tec and Elecraft place the Notch outside the AGC circuit--there must be a good reason for it but not sure what it is. Toby W4CAK __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - RX audio degradation with ANF
ANF is the common use abbreviation for Auto Notch Filter. A lot of rigs use that nomenclature. The K3's ANF on SSB has not worked correctly IMO for several firmware releases. Someone posted a fix a while back that involved resetting back to factory settings, rolling back to a previous firmware, reloading all your settings and then loading the current firmware. That's a lot of work and I was hoping a more elegant fix could be implemented in a firmware update. In my experience, the issue isn't so much extreme distortion on the signal, it's that it doesn't notch the offending signal properly. To reproduce, watch your RX signal with a strong carrier on a waterfall with a computer application like MixW. Turn on the ANF and you'll see that the K3 notches on either side of the offending carrier, but not actually right on the carrier. If you have good ears, you can hear this yourself. The manual notch works fine, of course. I haven't tried the latest beta firmware, so I don't know if this issue has been addressed yet. It needs to be addressed, though. Tim On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 5:35 AM, Gary Gregory garyvk...@gmail.com wrote: *Don, your not alone but I guessed it was Auto-Notch Filter..:-) __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - RX audio degradation with ANF
That's the trouble with acronyms - they inhibit the flow of information (or should I have said they IFI? :-) 73, Ron AC7AC -Original Message- ANF is the common use abbreviation for Auto Notch Filter. A lot of rigs use that nomenclature... Tim On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 5:35 AM, Gary Gregory garyvk...@gmail.com wrote: *Don, your not alone but I guessed it was Auto-Notch Filter..:-) __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
Re: [Elecraft] K3 - RX audio degradation with ANF
Tim, I use the ANF regularly on 75 meters to block heterodynes and have no issues or distortion and it works extremely well. I use AGC settings: Nor decay .30 HLDA Nor PLS 004 SLP 007 THR 030 S I use 2.8 8 pole filter and on occasion a 1.8 8 pole filter. I have my PRE amp off and ATT on, generally as the noise floor is around 1-2 S units using my ~ 350' horizontal loop. My inverted V Double Bazooka has a slightly higher noise floor. Again, I see no issues and am using the latest firmware. The notch removes the offending notch, but not the signal itself, of course. I also have a P3. I think the Notch is working very well as currently designed. 73, Bill K9YEQ -Original Message- From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Tim Tucker Sent: Friday, May 18, 2012 10:57 AM To: Elecraft Reflector Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 - RX audio degradation with ANF ANF is the common use abbreviation for Auto Notch Filter. A lot of rigs use that nomenclature. The K3's ANF on SSB has not worked correctly IMO for several firmware releases. Someone posted a fix a while back that involved resetting back to factory settings, rolling back to a previous firmware, reloading all your settings and then loading the current firmware. That's a lot of work and I was hoping a more elegant fix could be implemented in a firmware update. In my experience, the issue isn't so much extreme distortion on the signal, it's that it doesn't notch the offending signal properly. To reproduce, watch your RX signal with a strong carrier on a waterfall with a computer application like MixW. Turn on the ANF and you'll see that the K3 notches on either side of the offending carrier, but not actually right on the carrier. If you have good ears, you can hear this yourself. The manual notch works fine, of course. I haven't tried the latest beta firmware, so I don't know if this issue has been addressed yet. It needs to be addressed, though. Tim On Fri, May 18, 2012 at 5:35 AM, Gary Gregory garyvk...@gmail.com wrote: *Don, your not alone but I guessed it was Auto-Notch Filter..:-) __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
