Re: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed

[jim]

Jer,

Perceived audio is just that.  Perception.  And to the individual, it is
*everything*.

Op skill does come into play, no doubt.

Types of noise come into play, no doubt.

The fact there are only two settings on the Kenwood does limit it's ability
to "work" under different noise condx.

The K3 is an excellent radio.  I bought one after using a friends at
Sweepstakes CW two years ago.  The only time I looked back was when I had to

hook up the Kenwood TS-480 and my perception is the NR was superior.

BTW, I sent the K3 back because of hiss in the audio with the audio gain
fully CCW.  Elecraft bent over backwards to find the issue, and advised they
compared to current production rigs, using an audio spectrum analyzer.  I
also sent the headphones to them in the event the complex impedance of them
would induce this hiss.  Yes, Elecraft service is second to none.

The radio still has hiss, so I put a resistive pad inline and the hiss is
gone and ride the audio at 12 noon.

Jim
W6AIM

P.S.  I do not subscribe to $75.00 per foot speaker cable  ;>)



.

-Original Message-
From: Jerry Moore [mailto:je...@carolinaheli.com] On Behalf Of
ae...@carolinaheli.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 5:20 AM
To: 'jim'; 'Fred Townsend'; 'Robert Sands'; elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed

Jim,
  Here's a non-KookAid question for you.

Just like in school..
Show your work. 

You say that radio  has better  than the K3/K3S with latest hardware/firmware.
Please provide the data upon which you base this. 
What you hear /think you hear is not valid data because operator skill comes
into play. 
I'm no expert but have played with the K3S long enough to know the power of
it's NR is in finding the balance of settings to pull the desired signal out
of the noise. 

Any system that only has a button for NR and lacks granular control of the
parameters can't possibly pull signals out under all circumstances when
compared to a system that allows for granular control.

Opinions aside.. please provide the data upon which your claims are based. 

Claims without data are just opinion based on several factors; many of which
are out of the operators control and change over time. 

No KoolAid, just facts. I don't know that the K3S is better. On paper a
receiver system is dealing with component noise, board noise, power noise,
dynamic range, overhead, sensitivity, gain..etc..

On my K3S when digging out signals I'm playing with RF gain, Roofing
filters, IF DSP Filtering, AGC Slope, AGC Threshold, AGC Time, and finally
NR DSP algorithm (of which the K3S has LOTS). 
I have 2 main NR settings: One when I expect to have strong local signals
(e.g... contests) and one for normal use. When chasing weak signal DX I'll
play with settings to see what I can do. 

You're lucky to have never had to send your Kenwood radio in for repair. You
typically end up sending it to a third party repair shop with the hopes they
know what they are doing and do more good than harm.


Jerry Moore
CDXA, INDEXA, SKCC, Fists
AE4PB, K3S - S.N. 010324
http://www.qrz.com/db/AE4PB
An Amateur is - Considerate, Loyal, Progressive, Friendly, Balanced, and
Patriotic.

-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of jim
Sent: Monday, November 09, 2015 9:14 PM
To: 'Fred Townsend'; 'Robert Sands'; elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed

Kenwood (even the "cheap" TS-480) has superior NR.  Even with just two
different, fixed, settings.

Jim
W6AIM




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Re: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed

[ae4pb]

I'll make a few comments with information you likely already know and drop
the thread.
1. audio hiss is common with the largest contributor being particles
traversing the substrate layers of semi-conductors (you get it in tubes as
well, just not as much). The design keys being S/N ratio, dynamic range, and
gain. Any solution to remove hiss without consideration to S/N ratio and
gain results in loss of signal level. Hard to complain about weak signal
work if the system is degraded by mods/adjustments.
2. By default the K3S receive audio isn't optimal for everyone's ears and
dynamic range. That's likely why there's an audio equalizer for both receive
and transmit audio. If you've not adjusted that to optimize the audio to
your tastes then you're missing out.

I have different hearing issues in each ear. My wish is to be able to adjust
left /right audio independently with both a single receiver and with the sub
installed. I currently run with AFX on full delay. I usually hear signals on
my right ear not my left unless I adjust the equalizer. My right ear being
more sensitive than my left.

Show me an audio circuit with no hiss and I'll show you missing signal
level. For most audio applications this doesn't matter because there's ample
signal. When working weak signal it's all about balance and working the
edges. If you operate with all knobs cranked to the right I'd humbly and
respectfully suggest that you review your operating procedures regardless of
the radio you use. 

Kenwood makes a good radio, however, I've NEVER had good luck with service
from them or Yaesu. Based on my experiences in forums, reflector, and
talking with other hams; Elecraft is rabidly good about support. 

Jerry Moore
CDXA, INDEXA, SKCC, Fists
AE4PB, K3S - S.N. 010324
http://www.qrz.com/db/AE4PB
An Amateur is - Considerate, Loyal, Progressive, Friendly, Balanced, and
Patriotic.

-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of jim
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 11:23 AM
To: ae...@carolinaheli.com; 'Fred Townsend'; 'Robert Sands';
elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed

Jer,

Perceived audio is just that.  Perception.  And to the individual, it is
*everything*.

Op skill does come into play, no doubt.

Types of noise come into play, no doubt.

The fact there are only two settings on the Kenwood does limit it's ability
to "work" under different noise condx.

The K3 is an excellent radio.  I bought one after using a friends at
Sweepstakes CW two years ago.  The only time I looked back was when I had to

hook up the Kenwood TS-480 and my perception is the NR was superior.

BTW, I sent the K3 back because of hiss in the audio with the audio gain
fully CCW.  Elecraft bent over backwards to find the issue, and advised they
compared to current production rigs, using an audio spectrum analyzer.  I
also sent the headphones to them in the event the complex impedance of them
would induce this hiss.  Yes, Elecraft service is second to none.

The radio still has hiss, so I put a resistive pad inline and the hiss is
gone and ride the audio at 12 noon.

Jim
W6AIM

P.S.  I do not subscribe to $75.00 per foot speaker cable  ;>)



.

-Original Message-
From: Jerry Moore [mailto:je...@carolinaheli.com] On Behalf Of
ae...@carolinaheli.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 5:20 AM
To: 'jim'; 'Fred Townsend'; 'Robert Sands'; elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed

Jim,
  Here's a non-KookAid question for you.

Just like in school..
Show your work. 

You say that radio  has better  than the K3/K3S with latest hardware/firmware.
Please provide the data upon which you base this. 
What you hear /think you hear is not valid data because operator skill comes
into play. 
I'm no expert but have played with the K3S long enough to know the power of
it's NR is in finding the balance of settings to pull the desired signal out
of the noise. 

Any system that only has a button for NR and lacks granular control of the
parameters can't possibly pull signals out under all circumstances when
compared to a system that allows for granular control.

Opinions aside.. please provide the data upon which your claims are based. 

Claims without data are just opinion based on several factors; many of which
are out of the operators control and change over time. 

No KoolAid, just facts. I don't know that the K3S is better. On paper a
receiver system is dealing with component noise, board noise, power noise,
dynamic range, overhead, sensitivity, gain..etc..

On my K3S when digging out signals I'm playing with RF gain, Roofing
filters, IF DSP Filtering, AGC Slope, AGC Threshold, AGC Time, and finally
NR DSP algorithm (of which the K3S has LOTS). 
I have 2 main NR settings: One when I expect to have strong local signals
(e.g... contests) and one for normal use. When chasing weak signal DX I'll
play with settings to see what I can do. 

You're lucky 

Re: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed

[Robert Vargas-KP4Y via Elecraft]

Wow, so much for a non-kool aid question...You comments give up my friend!
I have a K3, KX3 and TS-590. It's well documented that the nr in the K3 is poor 
and leave a lot to be desired. Also, in an effort to fix it by making it more 
adjustable, Elecraft overcomplicated its implementation. I love Elecraft 
products, but also love the simplicity and effectiveness of nr implementation 
in the TS-590 (in my opinion even better than the one in KX3). Regarding 
warranty and service, I totally agree Elecraft is hand down #1 in this area. 
However, Kenwood just fixed the ALC issue in my TS-590 free of charge after 4 
years. The question is, can I send my 3 yrs old (early production) KX3 to 
Elecraft to get all the latest corrections/improvements (e.g. tuning noise) 
free of charge. After all, I paid about the same amount of money that someone 
is paying today for a better product. ;) I'm a big fan of Elecraft, but resist 
drinking the Kool aid in order to encourage competition.
Robert-KP4Y    


 On Tuesday, November 10, 2015 12:00 PM, "ae...@carolinaheli.com" 
<ae...@carolinaheli.com> wrote:
   

 I'll make a few comments with information you likely already know and drop
the thread.
1. audio hiss is common with the largest contributor being particles
traversing the substrate layers of semi-conductors (you get it in tubes as
well, just not as much). The design keys being S/N ratio, dynamic range, and
gain. Any solution to remove hiss without consideration to S/N ratio and
gain results in loss of signal level. Hard to complain about weak signal
work if the system is degraded by mods/adjustments.
2. By default the K3S receive audio isn't optimal for everyone's ears and
dynamic range. That's likely why there's an audio equalizer for both receive
and transmit audio. If you've not adjusted that to optimize the audio to
your tastes then you're missing out.

I have different hearing issues in each ear. My wish is to be able to adjust
left /right audio independently with both a single receiver and with the sub
installed. I currently run with AFX on full delay. I usually hear signals on
my right ear not my left unless I adjust the equalizer. My right ear being
more sensitive than my left.

Show me an audio circuit with no hiss and I'll show you missing signal
level. For most audio applications this doesn't matter because there's ample
signal. When working weak signal it's all about balance and working the
edges. If you operate with all knobs cranked to the right I'd humbly and
respectfully suggest that you review your operating procedures regardless of
the radio you use. 

Kenwood makes a good radio, however, I've NEVER had good luck with service
from them or Yaesu. Based on my experiences in forums, reflector, and
talking with other hams; Elecraft is rabidly good about support. 

Jerry Moore
CDXA, INDEXA, SKCC, Fists
AE4PB, K3S - S.N. 010324
http://www.qrz.com/db/AE4PB
An Amateur is - Considerate, Loyal, Progressive, Friendly, Balanced, and
Patriotic.

-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of jim
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 11:23 AM
To: ae...@carolinaheli.com; 'Fred Townsend'; 'Robert Sands';
elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed

Jer,

Perceived audio is just that.  Perception.  And to the individual, it is
*everything*.

Op skill does come into play, no doubt.

Types of noise come into play, no doubt.

The fact there are only two settings on the Kenwood does limit it's ability
to "work" under different noise condx.

The K3 is an excellent radio.  I bought one after using a friends at
Sweepstakes CW two years ago.  The only time I looked back was when I had to

hook up the Kenwood TS-480 and my perception is the NR was superior.

BTW, I sent the K3 back because of hiss in the audio with the audio gain
fully CCW.  Elecraft bent over backwards to find the issue, and advised they
compared to current production rigs, using an audio spectrum analyzer.  I
also sent the headphones to them in the event the complex impedance of them
would induce this hiss.  Yes, Elecraft service is second to none.

The radio still has hiss, so I put a resistive pad inline and the hiss is
gone and ride the audio at 12 noon.

Jim
W6AIM

P.S.  I do not subscribe to $75.00 per foot speaker cable  ;>)



.

-Original Message-
From: Jerry Moore [mailto:je...@carolinaheli.com] On Behalf Of
ae...@carolinaheli.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 5:20 AM
To: 'jim'; 'Fred Townsend'; 'Robert Sands'; elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed

Jim,
  Here's a non-KookAid question for you.

Just like in school..
Show your work. 

You say that radio  has better  than the K3/K3S with latest hardware/firmware.
Please provide the data upon which you base this. 
What you hear /think you hear is not valid data because operator skill comes
into play. 
I'm no expert but have played with the K3S 

Re: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed

[Gary Gregory]

cuit with no hiss and I'll show you missing signal
> level. For most audio applications this doesn't matter because there's
> ample
> signal. When working weak signal it's all about balance and working the
> edges. If you operate with all knobs cranked to the right I'd humbly and
> respectfully suggest that you review your operating procedures regardless
> of
> the radio you use.
>
> Kenwood makes a good radio, however, I've NEVER had good luck with service
> from them or Yaesu. Based on my experiences in forums, reflector, and
> talking with other hams; Elecraft is rabidly good about support.
>
> Jerry Moore
> CDXA, INDEXA, SKCC, Fists
> AE4PB, K3S - S.N. 010324
> http://www.qrz.com/db/AE4PB
> An Amateur is - Considerate, Loyal, Progressive, Friendly, Balanced, and
> Patriotic.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of jim
> Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 11:23 AM
> To: ae...@carolinaheli.com; 'Fred Townsend'; 'Robert Sands';
> elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed
>
> Jer,
>
> Perceived audio is just that.  Perception.  And to the individual, it is
> *everything*.
>
> Op skill does come into play, no doubt.
>
> Types of noise come into play, no doubt.
>
> The fact there are only two settings on the Kenwood does limit it's ability
> to "work" under different noise condx.
>
> The K3 is an excellent radio.  I bought one after using a friends at
> Sweepstakes CW two years ago.  The only time I looked back was when I had
> to
>
> hook up the Kenwood TS-480 and my perception is the NR was superior.
>
> BTW, I sent the K3 back because of hiss in the audio with the audio gain
> fully CCW.  Elecraft bent over backwards to find the issue, and advised
> they
> compared to current production rigs, using an audio spectrum analyzer.  I
> also sent the headphones to them in the event the complex impedance of them
> would induce this hiss.  Yes, Elecraft service is second to none.
>
> The radio still has hiss, so I put a resistive pad inline and the hiss is
> gone and ride the audio at 12 noon.
>
> Jim
> W6AIM
>
> P.S.  I do not subscribe to $75.00 per foot speaker cable  ;>)
>
>
>
> .
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Jerry Moore [mailto:je...@carolinaheli.com] On Behalf Of
> ae...@carolinaheli.com
> Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 5:20 AM
> To: 'jim'; 'Fred Townsend'; 'Robert Sands'; elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> Subject: RE: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed
>
> Jim,
>   Here's a non-KookAid question for you.
>
> Just like in school..
> Show your work.
>
> You say that radio  has better  feature here> than the K3/K3S with latest hardware/firmware.
> Please provide the data upon which you base this.
> What you hear /think you hear is not valid data because operator skill
> comes
> into play.
> I'm no expert but have played with the K3S long enough to know the power of
> it's NR is in finding the balance of settings to pull the desired signal
> out
> of the noise.
>
> Any system that only has a button for NR and lacks granular control of the
> parameters can't possibly pull signals out under all circumstances when
> compared to a system that allows for granular control.
>
> Opinions aside.. please provide the data upon which your claims are based.
>
> Claims without data are just opinion based on several factors; many of
> which
> are out of the operators control and change over time.
>
> No KoolAid, just facts. I don't know that the K3S is better. On paper a
> receiver system is dealing with component noise, board noise, power noise,
> dynamic range, overhead, sensitivity, gain..etc..
>
> On my K3S when digging out signals I'm playing with RF gain, Roofing
> filters, IF DSP Filtering, AGC Slope, AGC Threshold, AGC Time, and finally
> NR DSP algorithm (of which the K3S has LOTS).
> I have 2 main NR settings: One when I expect to have strong local signals
> (e.g... contests) and one for normal use. When chasing weak signal DX I'll
> play with settings to see what I can do.
>
> You're lucky to have never had to send your Kenwood radio in for repair.
> You
> typically end up sending it to a third party repair shop with the hopes
> they
> know what they are doing and do more good than harm.
>
>
> Jerry Moore
> CDXA, INDEXA, SKCC, Fists
> AE4PB, K3S - S.N. 010324
> http://www.qrz.com/db/AE4PB
> An Amateur is - Considerate, Loyal, Progressive, Friendly, Balanced, and
> Patriotic.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of jim
> Sent: Monday, November 09, 2015 9:14 PM
> To:

Re: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed

[Jim Lowman]

Wow, I didn't think anyone coded in assembly language any longer.
Live and learn!

73 de Jim - AD6CW

On 11/9/2015 6:46 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote:

The K3's DSP code is written in very efficient assembly language. It executes 
quickly, because it doesn't need the lengthy library-routine calls typical of 
the C or C++ code written for GHz-clock DSPs. The code is also extremely 
compact.

73,
Wayne
N6KR




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Re: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed

[Edward R Cole]

Topic has digressed to NR:

Simple question.  Is all this feedback on how good or how bad NR 
works about reception of CW (or does it apply to SSB?).  Only time I 
really need NR is when local noise overwhelms normally strong SSB 
(e.g. signal is running S8-S9 and noise rises up to S8-S9.  I find NR 
will lower the s-meter to about S6-S7 under those conditions but the 
audio is distorted by NR such that intelligibility is lowered - ergo 
no help to copy the signal.  I've tried several NR settings with some 
being better but none helping me understand speech better than 
running without NR.  Often NB works better than NR, but NB also tends 
to distort audio.


Using NR with normal noise conditions it is never helpful for 
improving intelligibility (for me).  I will admit that I have extreme 
hearing issues that make ordinary speech a challenge.  So any 
processing that imparts distortion reduces my ability to understand speech.


It seems to me that NR appears to experience IMD with the noise frequencies.

To be fair I have not had success using NR with other brand radios, 
either.  The only NR that works for me is in my expensive Bose 
airline headset.  That is working on different nature of noise (probably).


To be fair I represent 0.2% of the population that NR probably is 
ineffective.  I have it selectable in my hearing aids and often find 
it is not helpful, either; rejects noise from behind me but clarity 
of sound is impacted.  In a crowded room full of babble of the 
multitude, I select the TV/music mode which provides wide-frequency 
response and I turn vol up to max. 


73, Ed - KL7UW
http://www.kl7uw.com
"Kits made by KL7UW"
Dubus Mag business:
dubus...@gmail.com

__
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Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com

Re: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed

[george fritkin via Elecraft]

; adjust
> left /right audio independently with both a single receiver and with the
> sub
> installed. I currently run with AFX on full delay. I usually hear signals
> on
> my right ear not my left unless I adjust the equalizer. My right ear being
> more sensitive than my left.
>
> Show me an audio circuit with no hiss and I'll show you missing signal
> level. For most audio applications this doesn't matter because there's
> ample
> signal. When working weak signal it's all about balance and working the
> edges. If you operate with all knobs cranked to the right I'd humbly and
> respectfully suggest that you review your operating procedures regardless
> of
> the radio you use.
>
> Kenwood makes a good radio, however, I've NEVER had good luck with service
> from them or Yaesu. Based on my experiences in forums, reflector, and
> talking with other hams; Elecraft is rabidly good about support.
>
> Jerry Moore
> CDXA, INDEXA, SKCC, Fists
> AE4PB, K3S - S.N. 010324
> http://www.qrz.com/db/AE4PB
> An Amateur is - Considerate, Loyal, Progressive, Friendly, Balanced, and
> Patriotic.
>
> -Original Message-----
> From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of jim
> Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 11:23 AM
> To: ae...@carolinaheli.com; 'Fred Townsend'; 'Robert Sands';
> elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed
>
> Jer,
>
> Perceived audio is just that.  Perception.  And to the individual, it is
> *everything*.
>
> Op skill does come into play, no doubt.
>
> Types of noise come into play, no doubt.
>
> The fact there are only two settings on the Kenwood does limit it's ability
> to "work" under different noise condx.
>
> The K3 is an excellent radio.  I bought one after using a friends at
> Sweepstakes CW two years ago.  The only time I looked back was when I had
> to
>
> hook up the Kenwood TS-480 and my perception is the NR was superior.
>
> BTW, I sent the K3 back because of hiss in the audio with the audio gain
> fully CCW.  Elecraft bent over backwards to find the issue, and advised
> they
> compared to current production rigs, using an audio spectrum analyzer.  I
> also sent the headphones to them in the event the complex impedance of them
> would induce this hiss.  Yes, Elecraft service is second to none.
>
> The radio still has hiss, so I put a resistive pad inline and the hiss is
> gone and ride the audio at 12 noon.
>
> Jim
> W6AIM
>
> P.S.  I do not subscribe to $75.00 per foot speaker cable  ;>)
>
>
>
> .
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Jerry Moore [mailto:je...@carolinaheli.com] On Behalf Of
> ae...@carolinaheli.com
> Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 5:20 AM
> To: 'jim'; 'Fred Townsend'; 'Robert Sands'; elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> Subject: RE: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed
>
> Jim,
>  Here's a non-KookAid question for you.
>
> Just like in school..
> Show your work.
>
> You say that radio  has better  feature here> than the K3/K3S with latest hardware/firmware.
> Please provide the data upon which you base this.
> What you hear /think you hear is not valid data because operator skill
> comes
> into play.
> I'm no expert but have played with the K3S long enough to know the power of
> it's NR is in finding the balance of settings to pull the desired signal
> out
> of the noise.
>
> Any system that only has a button for NR and lacks granular control of the
> parameters can't possibly pull signals out under all circumstances when
> compared to a system that allows for granular control.
>
> Opinions aside.. please provide the data upon which your claims are based.
>
> Claims without data are just opinion based on several factors; many of
> which
> are out of the operators control and change over time.
>
> No KoolAid, just facts. I don't know that the K3S is better. On paper a
> receiver system is dealing with component noise, board noise, power noise,
> dynamic range, overhead, sensitivity, gain..etc..
>
> On my K3S when digging out signals I'm playing with RF gain, Roofing
> filters, IF DSP Filtering, AGC Slope, AGC Threshold, AGC Time, and finally
> NR DSP algorithm (of which the K3S has LOTS).
> I have 2 main NR settings: One when I expect to have strong local signals
> (e.g... contests) and one for normal use. When chasing weak signal DX I'll
> play with settings to see what I can do.
>
> You're lucky to have never had to send your Kenwood radio in for repair.
> You
> typically end up sending it to a third party repair shop with the hopes
> they
> know what they are doing and do more good than harm.
>
>
> Jerry Moore
> CDXA, IN

Re: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed

[jim]

Everybody stop, I hit the send button to soon.

I know what it stands for.

Jim
W6AIM



-Original Message-
From: jim [mailto:jbol...@outlook.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 11:01 AM
To: 'Edward R Cole'; 'Elecraft@mailman.qth.net'
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed

What is SSB an acronym for???

Jim
W6AIM


.

-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Edward
R Cole
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 10:44 AM
To: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed

Topic has digressed to NR:

Simple question.  Is all this feedback on how good or how bad NR works about
reception of CW (or does it apply to SSB?).  Only time I really need NR is
when local noise overwhelms normally strong SSB (e.g. signal is running
S8-S9 and noise rises up to S8-S9.  I find NR will lower the s-meter to
about S6-S7 under those conditions but the audio is distorted by NR such
that intelligibility is lowered - ergo no help to copy the signal.  I've
tried several NR settings with some being better but none helping me
understand speech better than running without NR.  Often NB works better
than NR, but NB also tends to distort audio.

Using NR with normal noise conditions it is never helpful for improving
intelligibility (for me).  I will admit that I have extreme hearing issues
that make ordinary speech a challenge.  So any processing that imparts
distortion reduces my ability to understand speech.

It seems to me that NR appears to experience IMD with the noise frequencies.

To be fair I have not had success using NR with other brand radios, either.
The only NR that works for me is in my expensive Bose airline headset.  That
is working on different nature of noise (probably).

To be fair I represent 0.2% of the population that NR probably is
ineffective.  I have it selectable in my hearing aids and often find it is
not helpful, either; rejects noise from behind me but clarity of sound is
impacted.  In a crowded room full of babble of the multitude, I select the
TV/music mode which provides wide-frequency response and I turn vol up to
max. 

73, Ed - KL7UW
http://www.kl7uw.com
 "Kits made by KL7UW"
Dubus Mag business:
 dubus...@gmail.com

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed

[jim]

What is SSB an acronym for???

Jim
W6AIM


.

-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Edward
R Cole
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 10:44 AM
To: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed

Topic has digressed to NR:

Simple question.  Is all this feedback on how good or how bad NR works about
reception of CW (or does it apply to SSB?).  Only time I really need NR is
when local noise overwhelms normally strong SSB (e.g. signal is running
S8-S9 and noise rises up to S8-S9.  I find NR will lower the s-meter to
about S6-S7 under those conditions but the audio is distorted by NR such
that intelligibility is lowered - ergo no help to copy the signal.  I've
tried several NR settings with some being better but none helping me
understand speech better than running without NR.  Often NB works better
than NR, but NB also tends to distort audio.

Using NR with normal noise conditions it is never helpful for improving
intelligibility (for me).  I will admit that I have extreme hearing issues
that make ordinary speech a challenge.  So any processing that imparts
distortion reduces my ability to understand speech.

It seems to me that NR appears to experience IMD with the noise frequencies.

To be fair I have not had success using NR with other brand radios, either.
The only NR that works for me is in my expensive Bose airline headset.  That
is working on different nature of noise (probably).

To be fair I represent 0.2% of the population that NR probably is
ineffective.  I have it selectable in my hearing aids and often find it is
not helpful, either; rejects noise from behind me but clarity of sound is
impacted.  In a crowded room full of babble of the multitude, I select the
TV/music mode which provides wide-frequency response and I turn vol up to
max. 

73, Ed - KL7UW
http://www.kl7uw.com
 "Kits made by KL7UW"
Dubus Mag business:
 dubus...@gmail.com

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed

[GRANT YOUNGMAN]

It seems to me that “drowning in Kool Aid” is no worse than what are little 
more than anecdotal comments about how one radio is better than another one in 
regards to noise reduction.  Especially because essentially the same “leaky 
LMS”  algorithm is used by most if not all of them.  And it doesn’t have very 
much to do with how many Tera-hertz the DSP chips run or how much the radio 
weighs.

On another list, at another time, for a for a very good radio made by another 
American manufacturer, we had all the same never ending arguments.  I’m sure if 
we took those posts and changed the name of the radio, you couldn't tell them 
from the current crop.   Someone always thought their IC-xxx or TS- was 
so much better.  Anyone saying anything positive about the radio in 
question (on just about any topic) was immediately accused of being a fan of 
Kool Aid and having gone to the dark side.  It took actual measurements of 
(S+N)/N to make the point that — oh, by the way — NR on that radio did what it 
was supposed to do — raise (S+N)/N on the signal of interest — quite well, 
regardless of how much or how little it sounded your favorite “other” radio.

Perhaps someone would like to offer up one or more actual facts,  or make some 
actual confirmable measurements.  It isn’t that hard to do.

Grant NQ5T
K3 #2091, KX3 #8342


> 
> 
> They were drowning in Kool Aide.
> 

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed

[Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft]

Folks, we closed this thread earlier today.

73,

Eric
/elecraft.com/

On 11/10/2015 12:06 PM, GRANT YOUNGMAN wrote:

It seems to me that “drowning in Kool Aid” is no worse than what are little 
more than anecdotal comments about how one radio is better than another one in 
regards to noise reduction.  Especially because essentially the same “leaky 
LMS”  algorithm is used by most if not all of them.  And it doesn’t have very 
much to do with how many Tera-hertz the DSP chips run or how much the radio 
weighs.

On another list, at another time, for a for a very good radio made by another 
American manufacturer, we had all the same never ending arguments.  I’m sure if 
we took those posts and changed the name of the radio, you couldn't tell them 
from the current crop.   Someone always thought their IC-xxx or TS- was 
so much better.  Anyone saying anything positive about the radio in 
question (on just about any topic) was immediately accused of being a fan of 
Kool Aid and having gone to the dark side.  It took actual measurements of 
(S+N)/N to make the point that — oh, by the way — NR on that radio did what it 
was supposed to do — raise (S+N)/N on the signal of interest — quite well, 
regardless of how much or how little it sounded your favorite “other” radio.

Perhaps someone would like to offer up one or more actual facts,  or make some 
actual confirmable measurements.  It isn’t that hard to do.

Grant NQ5T
K3 #2091, KX3 #8342




They were drowning in Kool Aide.


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Re: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed

[Charlie T, K3ICH]

Simple Slop Bucket.

Something Seems Broken.

Sure Sounds Bad.

Start Sending Better.


73, Charlie k3ICH




What is SSB an acronym for???

Jim
W6AIM


.

-Original Message-
From: Elecraft
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On
Behalf Of Edward R Cole
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2015 10:44 AM
To: Elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed

Topic has digressed to NR:

Simple question.  Is all this feedback on how good
or how bad NR works about reception of CW (or does
it apply to SSB?).  Only time I really need NR is
when local noise overwhelms normally strong SSB
(e.g. signal is running
S8-S9 and noise rises up to S8-S9.  I find NR will
lower the s-meter to about S6-S7 under those
conditions but the audio is distorted by NR such
that intelligibility is lowered - ergo no help to
copy the signal.  I've tried several NR settings
with some being better but none helping me
understand speech better than running without NR.
Often NB works better than NR, but NB also tends
to distort audio.

Using NR with normal noise conditions it is never
helpful for improving intelligibility (for me).  I
will admit that I have extreme hearing issues that
make ordinary speech a challenge.  So any
processing that imparts distortion reduces my
ability to understand speech.

It seems to me that NR appears to experience IMD
with the noise frequencies.

To be fair I have not had success using NR with
other brand radios, either.
The only NR that works for me is in my expensive
Bose airline headset.  That is working on
different nature of noise (probably).

To be fair I represent 0.2% of the population that
NR probably is ineffective.  I have it selectable
in my hearing aids and often find it is not
helpful, either; rejects noise from behind me but
clarity of sound is impacted.  In a crowded room
full of babble of the multitude, I select the
TV/music mode which provides wide-frequency
response and I turn vol up to max. 

73, Ed - KL7UW
http://www.kl7uw.com
 "Kits made by KL7UW"
Dubus Mag business:
 dubus...@gmail.com

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed

[David Gilbert]

What on earth would cause you to make a statement like that?   A large 
number of rigs still on the market have fundamental and inexcusably bad 
key clicks and phase noise that pollute the bands, not to mention the 
ones with wide front ends that pound the bejeezus out of the AGC from 10 
KHz away.


Dave   AB7E



On Tue,11/10/2015 2:35 PM, Bob McGraw - K4TAX wrote:
There are no bad radios currently on the market. 




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Re: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed

[Jim Brown]

On Tue,11/10/2015 2:35 PM, Bob McGraw - K4TAX wrote:
There are no bad radios currently on the market. 


Obviously you've never operated a contest with a neighbor running an 
FTDX5000, IC7600, IC706, or others in that class. All occupy a lot more 
than their fair share of CW bandwidth and TX lots of phase noise. I 
would call them bad radios.


73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed

[Bob McGraw - K4TAX]

There are no bad radios currently on the market.  Some are better 
radios, but better is in the eyes {ears} of the beholder.  However, 
those radios of yesteryear, as compared to the current breed of radios 
from Elecraft, Kenwood, Yaesu, ICOM, Flex and Tentec and ? are 
really in the back seat in terms of overall  performance. Yes we do have 
our favorite because of our operation preferences, our QTH, our antenna 
farm restricted or not, our personal type of noise and a host of other 
variables.


I agree with Rob Sherwood...If it fits your needs and budget and 
you enjoy using it, then it is a good radio.  Look no further. However, 
as technology moves forward at present at lightning speed, I believe if 
a radio is approaching 10 years old or more, one should consider 
replacing it.


73
Bob, K4TAX
K3S s/n 10163

 


On 11/10/2015 2:06 PM, GRANT YOUNGMAN wrote:

It seems to me that “drowning in Kool Aid” is no worse than what are little 
more than anecdotal comments about how one radio is better than another one in 
regards to noise reduction.  Especially because essentially the same “leaky 
LMS”  algorithm is used by most if not all of them.  And it doesn’t have very 
much to do with how many Tera-hertz the DSP chips run or how much the radio 
weighs.

On another list, at another time, for a for a very good radio made by another 
American manufacturer, we had all the same never ending arguments.  I’m sure if 
we took those posts and changed the name of the radio, you couldn't tell them 
from the current crop.   Someone always thought their IC-xxx or TS- was 
so much better.  Anyone saying anything positive about the radio in 
question (on just about any topic) was immediately accused of being a fan of 
Kool Aid and having gone to the dark side.  It took actual measurements of 
(S+N)/N to make the point that — oh, by the way — NR on that radio did what it 
was supposed to do — raise (S+N)/N on the signal of interest — quite well, 
regardless of how much or how little it sounded your favorite “other” radio.

Perhaps someone would like to offer up one or more actual facts,  or make some 
actual confirmable measurements.  It isn’t that hard to do.



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Re: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed

[Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft]

Guys - This thread is closed.

Eric
Moderator - really!
/elecraft.com/

On 11/10/2015 3:00 PM, David Gilbert wrote:


What on earth would cause you to make a statement like that?   A large number 
of rigs still on the market have fundamental and inexcusably bad key clicks 
and phase noise that pollute the bands, not to mention the ones with wide 
front ends that pound the bejeezus out of the AGC from 10 KHz away.

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed

[Al Gulseth]

Watch it Wayne, you almost made me do the proverbial spew on the keyboard with 
that one HI HI!!

OTOH, a ham friend of mine a long time ago briefly lived in a trailer park 
while he was going through some marital difficulties. He had his Swan 350 set 
up there. A next trailer neighbor of his liked to listen to a rock FM station 
at high volume fairly early in the morning. My friend told me that he'd 
noticed a "swish" from the neighbor's stereo on a certain frequency when 
tuning across 15M. One morning he got tired of the neighbor's concert, turned 
on the Swan, moved down the band a ways and loaded it "full tilt", carefully 
zero beat the suspect frequency, keyed the mic, and yelled "bleaah" or some 
such into it. (He claimed he could hear himself coming through the neighbor's 
stereo.) The rock station volume immediately went down and he never heard it 
turned back up the rest of the time he lived there. Maybe Elecraft needs to 
do some research to see if there are some frequencies where the KPA500 would 
be effective in this way against nearby teen house parties ;-) However, I 
doubt it would be effective against earthquakes though

73, Al

On Mon November 9 2015 9:09:24 pm Wayne Burdick wrote:
> Steve Ellington wrote:
> > The IC-7851 consumes *200 Watts in RECEIVE mode!*
>
> So it can dampen shaking due to earthquakes and nearby teen house parties.
>
> > The K3.About 12 watts.
>
> So you can run it from a solar panel after the aforementioned disasters.
>
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
>
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed

[ae4pb]

Jim,
  Here's a non-KookAid question for you.

Just like in school..
Show your work. 

You say that radio  has better  than the K3/K3S with latest hardware/firmware.
Please provide the data upon which you base this. 
What you hear /think you hear is not valid data because operator skill comes
into play. 
I'm no expert but have played with the K3S long enough to know the power of
it's NR is in finding the balance of settings to pull the desired signal out
of the noise. 

Any system that only has a button for NR and lacks granular control of the
parameters can't possibly pull signals out under all circumstances when
compared to a system that allows for granular control.

Opinions aside.. please provide the data upon which your claims are based. 

Claims without data are just opinion based on several factors; many of which
are out of the operators control and change over time. 

No KoolAid, just facts. I don't know that the K3S is better. On paper a
receiver system is dealing with component noise, board noise, power noise,
dynamic range, overhead, sensitivity, gain..etc..

On my K3S when digging out signals I'm playing with RF gain, Roofing
filters, IF DSP Filtering, AGC Slope, AGC Threshold, AGC Time, and finally
NR DSP algorithm (of which the K3S has LOTS). 
I have 2 main NR settings: One when I expect to have strong local signals
(e.g... contests) and one for normal use. When chasing weak signal DX I'll
play with settings to see what I can do. 

You're lucky to have never had to send your Kenwood radio in for repair. You
typically end up sending it to a third party repair shop with the hopes they
know what they are doing and do more good than harm.


Jerry Moore
CDXA, INDEXA, SKCC, Fists
AE4PB, K3S - S.N. 010324
http://www.qrz.com/db/AE4PB
An Amateur is - Considerate, Loyal, Progressive, Friendly, Balanced, and
Patriotic.

-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of jim
Sent: Monday, November 09, 2015 9:14 PM
To: 'Fred Townsend'; 'Robert Sands'; elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed

Kenwood (even the "cheap" TS-480) has superior NR.  Even with just two
different, fixed, settings.

Jim
W6AIM



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[Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed

[Robert Sands]

I was informed by an ICOM 7851 owner that the ICOM has DSP processors are
10 times as fast as the K3 and therefore has noise reducing advantage. Not
that important to me but curious if this is meaningful and if there is
consideration of chasing this performance spec by Elecraft and if not Why
not?
Bob
K7VO
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed

[Steve Ellington]

The IC-7851 consumes *200 Watts in RECEIVE mode!*
The K3.About 12 watts.

On Mon, Nov 9, 2015 at 9:46 PM, Wayne Burdick  wrote:

> The K3's DSP code is written in very efficient assembly language. It
> executes quickly, because it doesn't need the lengthy library-routine calls
> typical of the C or C++ code written for GHz-clock DSPs. The code is also
> extremely compact.
>
> The crystal oscillator frequency is not a direct indicator of clock speed.
> An on-chip PLL multiples it to a much higher frequency. And again,
> efficient DSP code written for 48-kHz IF/12-kHz AF sample rates doesn't
> require a lot of time to execute.
>
> This same philosophy applies to the K3's microcontroller. One result is
> that a K3 draws far less current in receive mode than most desktop
> transceivers.
>
> The K3's NR has a lot of flexibility (with 32 settings), and some
> experimentation is required for best results.
>
> 73,
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed

[jim]

Fred,

You are pulling what I call a "boogie man" ref the RFI.  It gets addressed
at the design stage.

Your fans and heatsink comments are also not valid.  Power is NOT dissipated
in an evenly distributed manner.  Again, it is an issue addressed at the
design stage.

You comment about service is valid, but, the goal is to never need the
service.  I have had no issues with the Kenwood service, my TS-480 just
works.  


OTOH, I put the TS-480 back into service when my K3 was sent back to the
factory.

Jim
W6AIM 

.

-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Fred
Townsend
Sent: Monday, November 9, 2015 4:46 PM
To: 'Robert Sands'; elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed

Bob:
There are many many reasons why this is an apples to watermelon comparison.
Too many for discussion here. However two thoughts. In general the faster
the processor the 'more' chances of producing RFI. It could be Wayne and the
boys kept the processor speed low to reduce noise. Also in CMOS processors
the current drain goes up proportional to the square of clock frequency.
Simply faster processors take more power and with power comes the need for
fans and heatsinks. That's from the physical side. However the application
of more filters could possibly reduce noise from the software side but this
is far from a simple tradeoff. 
Finally even if were a push between the K3 and 7851 have you ever heard of
anyone bragging about their service?
73
Fred, AE6QL

-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Robert
Sands
Sent: Monday, November 9, 2015 1:32 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed

I was informed by an ICOM 7851 owner that the ICOM has DSP processors are
10 times as fast as the K3 and therefore has noise reducing advantage. Not
that important to me but curious if this is meaningful and if there is
consideration of chasing this performance spec by Elecraft and if not Why
not?
Bob
K7VO
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed

[Wayne Burdick]

The K3's DSP code is written in very efficient assembly language. It executes 
quickly, because it doesn't need the lengthy library-routine calls typical of 
the C or C++ code written for GHz-clock DSPs. The code is also extremely 
compact. 

The crystal oscillator frequency is not a direct indicator of clock speed. An 
on-chip PLL multiples it to a much higher frequency. And again, efficient DSP 
code written for 48-kHz IF/12-kHz AF sample rates doesn't require a lot of time 
to execute.

This same philosophy applies to the K3's microcontroller. One result is that a 
K3 draws far less current in receive mode than most desktop transceivers.

The K3's NR has a lot of flexibility (with 32 settings), and some 
experimentation is required for best results.

73,
Wayne
N6KR

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed

[Wayne Burdick]

Steve Ellington wrote:


> The IC-7851 consumes *200 Watts in RECEIVE mode!*

So it can dampen shaking due to earthquakes and nearby teen house parties.


> The K3.About 12 watts.

So you can run it from a solar panel after the aforementioned disasters.

Wayne
N6KR


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Re: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed

[Tim Tucker]

While I appreciate the input from Wayne on the K3's programming
architecture (as well as the facts on the power consumption
characteristics), the reality is that many of us have identified other rigs
that have implemented NR in a way that produces results that are much more
satisfactory.  Comments from those that don't seem to have a use-case for
NR aren't really applicable to this particular topic, either.

Personally, I find the NR capabilities of the KX3 to be among the best and
most flexible that I've ever experienced, but also find the K3's
capabilities to be fairly anemic in comparison.  I would love to see the
KX3's approach implemented in the K3 - that would make for a VERY nice
upgrade, IMO.

On Mon, Nov 9, 2015 at 7:09 PM, Wayne Burdick  wrote:

> Steve Ellington wrote:
>
>
> > The IC-7851 consumes *200 Watts in RECEIVE mode!*
>
> So it can dampen shaking due to earthquakes and nearby teen house parties.
>
>
> > The K3.About 12 watts.
>
> So you can run it from a solar panel after the aforementioned disasters.
>
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
>
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>



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Re: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed

[Gary]

My DSP works great, it only took me several years of trying to get it to where 
it does what I need it to do.

Yeah, I'm pretty quick at figuring the black arts out eh?

73

Gary

-Original Message-
From: "Wayne Burdick" <n...@elecraft.com>
Sent: ‎10/‎11/‎2015 1:10 PM
To: "Steve Ellington" <steven...@gmail.com>
Cc: "Elecraft Reflector" <elecraft@mailman.qth.net>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed

Steve Ellington wrote:


> The IC-7851 consumes *200 Watts in RECEIVE mode!*

So it can dampen shaking due to earthquakes and nearby teen house parties.


> The K3.About 12 watts.

So you can run it from a solar panel after the aforementioned disasters.

Wayne
N6KR


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Re: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed

[jim]

Guys,

Legit question.  I am not surprised to see the "type" of answers given so
far.  

They were drowning in Kool Aide.

Jim
W6AIM

P.S.  My ears say the NR is only average for the K3.  I was running my
TS-480 when the K3 was in the shop, and I was impressed with the superior NR
of the low cost Kenwood TS-480



.



-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Bill
Sent: Monday, November 9, 2015 4:34 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed

Some how I just am not all that impressed by those "fantastic" DSP numbers.
What does impress me is the absolute quality of the received signals
presented to my ears by the K3.

In about 55 years, my K3 is the most satisfying receiver I have ever used -
and I have had most of them along the way. Fed to my outboard speakers, it
sure makes for some super arm chair rag chews.

All I have to do to prove same, is to switch to one of my other rigs. 
Then get on 75 meters at 7:30 PM and have some group move in right beside
you. With the K3, a twist of a knob - and they are no longer beating my ears
back - with one of my other rigs - well, not so easy on the ears.

Yeah!!! Pass the Kool Aide!

Bill W2BLC K3-Line


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Re: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed

[jim]

Wayne,

Thanks for the unedited answer with no bias.

Jim
W6AIM


.


-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Wayne
Burdick
Sent: Monday, November 9, 2015 6:46 PM
To: Elecraft Reflector
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed

The K3's DSP code is written in very efficient assembly language. It
executes quickly, because it doesn't need the lengthy library-routine calls
typical of the C or C++ code written for GHz-clock DSPs. The code is also
extremely compact. 

The crystal oscillator frequency is not a direct indicator of clock speed.
An on-chip PLL multiples it to a much higher frequency. And again, efficient
DSP code written for 48-kHz IF/12-kHz AF sample rates doesn't require a lot
of time to execute.

This same philosophy applies to the K3's microcontroller. One result is that
a K3 draws far less current in receive mode than most desktop transceivers.

The K3's NR has a lot of flexibility (with 32 settings), and some
experimentation is required for best results.

73,
Wayne
N6KR

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed

[jim]

Kenwood (even the "cheap" TS-480) has superior NR.  Even with just two
different, fixed, settings.

Jim
W6AIM

-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Fred
Townsend
Sent: Monday, November 9, 2015 4:46 PM
To: 'Robert Sands'; elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed

Bob:
There are many many reasons why this is an apples to watermelon comparison.
Too many for discussion here. However two thoughts. In general the faster
the processor the 'more' chances of producing RFI. It could be Wayne and the
boys kept the processor speed low to reduce noise. Also in CMOS processors
the current drain goes up proportional to the square of clock frequency.
Simply faster processors take more power and with power comes the need for
fans and heatsinks. That's from the physical side. However the application
of more filters could possibly reduce noise from the software side but this
is far from a simple tradeoff. 
Finally even if were a push between the K3 and 7851 have you ever heard of
anyone bragging about their service?
73
Fred, AE6QL

-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Robert
Sands
Sent: Monday, November 9, 2015 1:32 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed

I was informed by an ICOM 7851 owner that the ICOM has DSP processors are
10 times as fast as the K3 and therefore has noise reducing advantage. Not
that important to me but curious if this is meaningful and if there is
consideration of chasing this performance spec by Elecraft and if not Why
not?
Bob
K7VO
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed

[Milverton M. Swire via Elecraft]

Sound like a case of  " My you know what is bigger than your you know what " 
Cause mine cost twice as much as yours! Nah nan nanna naw nah! 

(73) Milverton / W9MMS

  From: Chester Alderman <alderm...@windstream.net>
 To: 'Robert Sands' <k7vora...@gmail.com>; elecraft@mailman.qth.net 
 Sent: Monday, November 9, 2015 4:55 PM
 Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed
   
Maybe because Elecraft does not want to produce a rig that sells for
$14,500?

Tom - W4BQF


-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Robert
Sands
Sent: Monday, November 9, 2015 4:32 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed

I was informed by an ICOM 7851 owner that the ICOM has DSP processors are
10 times as fast as the K3 and therefore has noise reducing advantage. Not
that important to me but curious if this is meaningful and if there is
consideration of chasing this performance spec by Elecraft and if not Why
not?
Bob
K7VO
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delivered to alderm...@windstream.net



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Re: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed

[Bill]

Some how I just am not all that impressed by those "fantastic" DSP 
numbers. What does impress me is the absolute quality of the received 
signals presented to my ears by the K3.


In about 55 years, my K3 is the most satisfying receiver I have ever 
used - and I have had most of them along the way. Fed to my outboard 
speakers, it sure makes for some super arm chair rag chews.


All I have to do to prove same, is to switch to one of my other rigs. 
Then get on 75 meters at 7:30 PM and have some group move in right 
beside you. With the K3, a twist of a knob - and they are no longer 
beating my ears back - with one of my other rigs - well, not so easy on 
the ears.


Yeah!!! Pass the Kool Aide!

Bill W2BLC K3-Line


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Re: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed

[Fred Townsend]

Bob:
There are many many reasons why this is an apples to watermelon comparison.
Too many for discussion here. However two thoughts. In general the faster
the processor the 'more' chances of producing RFI. It could be Wayne and the
boys kept the processor speed low to reduce noise. Also in CMOS processors
the current drain goes up proportional to the square of clock frequency.
Simply faster processors take more power and with power comes the need for
fans and heatsinks. That's from the physical side. However the application
of more filters could possibly reduce noise from the software side but this
is far from a simple tradeoff. 
Finally even if were a push between the K3 and 7851 have you ever heard of
anyone bragging about their service?
73
Fred, AE6QL

-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Robert
Sands
Sent: Monday, November 9, 2015 1:32 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed

I was informed by an ICOM 7851 owner that the ICOM has DSP processors are
10 times as fast as the K3 and therefore has noise reducing advantage. Not
that important to me but curious if this is meaningful and if there is
consideration of chasing this performance spec by Elecraft and if not Why
not?
Bob
K7VO
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed

[Kevin Stover]

It reminds me of my computer overclocking days when bragging rights went 
to the guy who could run the processor at the highest clock without 
roasting throwing BSOD's or cooking the silicon. It's analogous to 
today's PC gamers who overclock video cards to get the very last frame 
per second on such and such game. Of course they can't actually SEE and 
increase in frame rate above about 30 frames per second. They need 
software to tell them they are getting 110 frames per second.


Some people grow up faster than others.

On 11/9/2015 5:04 PM, Mike Harris wrote:
According to the review in the November RSGB magazine (RadCom) it 
hosts three 32 bit floating point DSP units. Two clocked at 393MHz for 
the receivers and the transmitter an one clocked at 370MHz for the 
spectrum scope. Also two 24-bit DAC's.


I never use NR so essentially I don't really care if 2400 MFLOP 
devices make a difference.


Occam's razor springs to mind  "It is vain to do with more what can be 
done with fewer". Possibly less powerful DSP engines are becoming 
obsolete, maintenance only devices.


Regards,

Mike VP8NO




--
R. Kevin Stover
AC0H
ARRL
FISTS #11993
SKCC #215
NAQCC #3441

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Re: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed

[Chester Alderman]

Maybe because Elecraft does not want to produce a rig that sells for
$14,500?

Tom - W4BQF


-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Robert
Sands
Sent: Monday, November 9, 2015 4:32 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed

I was informed by an ICOM 7851 owner that the ICOM has DSP processors are
10 times as fast as the K3 and therefore has noise reducing advantage. Not
that important to me but curious if this is meaningful and if there is
consideration of chasing this performance spec by Elecraft and if not Why
not?
Bob
K7VO
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Re: [Elecraft] K3 DSP processor speed

[Mike Harris]

According to the review in the November RSGB magazine (RadCom) it hosts 
three 32 bit floating point DSP units. Two clocked at 393MHz for the 
receivers and the transmitter an one clocked at 370MHz for the spectrum 
scope. Also two 24-bit DAC's.


I never use NR so essentially I don't really care if 2400 MFLOP devices 
make a difference.


Occam's razor springs to mind  "It is vain to do with more what can be 
done with fewer". Possibly less powerful DSP engines are becoming 
obsolete, maintenance only devices.


Regards,

Mike VP8NO

On 09/11/2015 18:32, Robert Sands wrote:

I was informed by an ICOM 7851 owner that the ICOM has DSP processors are
10 times as fast as the K3 and therefore has noise reducing advantage. Not
that important to me but curious if this is meaningful and if there is
consideration of chasing this performance spec by Elecraft and if not Why
not?
Bob
K7VO

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