Re: [Elecraft] K3S Noise reduction Test

[Gary Smith]

I too would like the NR to use the A & B 
knobs and even greater options with the B 
knob. I think I would find it much easier 
to select the right settings on the fly.

Maybe user selectable in the next or 
upcoming K3/K3s update?

73,

Gary
KA1J

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Re: [Elecraft] K3S Noise reduction Test

[wa9fvp]

Jim Brown Wrote
 
EXACTLY RIGHT!  The scientific study of how we hear and perceive sound 
is called psychoacoustics, and is one of many important disciplines of 
the Acoustical Society of America. Early work at Bell Labs and at 
universities like MIT and Harvard became the basis for stereo. 

Some of the first published work was by Joseph Henry, whose name is on 
the unit of inductance in recognition of his invention of meters and 
motors. It was Henry who first observed (around 1850) that when the same 
sound is heard from two directions, the one that arrives first at our 
ears tells us where the sound is coming from. This fact is the basis of 
the Bell Labs stereo patent, and makes it far superior to the Blumlein 
work published a year or so earlier. 



 
I remember something from the telecom days and I found this on the Internet.
 
"The lowest discernible signal that can be heard by a human being is -90 dBm
(800 or 1000 Hz)"
 
It brings back something I heard in the early days when DSP noise reduction
was first introduced to Ham Radio.  At one of the Dayton Hamvention
seminars, I don't remember who that was, they said something to the affect
"Noise reduction cannot pull an SSB signal out of the noise. It can however
reduce the noise floor to a comfortable listing level'.  I guess, that's all
we can hope for.
 
PS; In order to reduce bandwidth, I try to cut previous posting from my
replies. Sometimes I forget and for that I apologies. 
--
Jack WA9FVP


 




-
Jack WA9FVP

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Re: [Elecraft] K3S Noise reduction Test

[Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft]

Folks - Let's rest this thread for now as its exceeding our posting limit.
73,
Eric
List modulator etc.
/elecraft.com/

On 6/21/2017 10:03 AM, wa9fvp wrote:

nr4c. bill wrote,
But that knob varies a whole other range of NR. How hard is it to turn one knob 
32 clicks?

32 clicks but only 4 NR levels.  The other settings are delays and mixed 
signals.  There aren’t enough level settings.


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Re: [Elecraft] K3S Noise reduction Test

[Jim Brown]

On Wed,6/21/2017 9:38 AM, John Stengrevics wrote:

Jim,

Is there a similar unit that covers 50 MHz?


Not that I know of.


  Or, a way to modify the NCC-1/NCC-2?


No. It is far too complex a unit, and would have to be redesigned from 
scratch.


73, Jim K9YC

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Re: [Elecraft] K3S Noise reduction Test

[wa9fvp]

nr4c. bill wrote,
But that knob varies a whole other range of NR. How hard is it to turn one knob 
32 clicks? 

32 clicks but only 4 NR levels.  The other settings are delays and mixed 
signals.  There aren’t enough level settings.
-- 

Jack WA9FVP- http://www.willcoele.com/radio_repair  
 

The Radio Reclamation Center (815) 463-9365
 
From: Nr4c [via Elecraft] [mailto:ml+s365791n7631952...@n2.nabble.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 9:22 PM
To: wa9fvp 
Subject: Re: K3S Noise reduction Test
 
But that knob varies a whole other range of NR. How hard is it to turn one knob 
32 clicks? 

Sent from my iPhone 
...nr4c. bill 

> On Jun 20, 2017, at 2:51 PM, Drew AF2Z <[hidden email]> wrote: 
> 
> The only thing I would change in NR is to make it easier to scroll through 
> the settings. Currently you can only go through the 32 settings sequentially 
> with the VFO-B knob, from 1-1 through 8-4. It would be nice if the VFO-A knob 
> could be employed to increment and decrement the first parameter. 
> 
> For example: if you were on NR 1-3 you could scroll directly through 2-3, 
> 3-3, 4-3, etc using the VFO-A knob. 
> 
> I don't know the details of NR but believe that all the n-1 settings are 
> related to each other as a group; same goes for the n-2 settings, n-3, and 
> n-4. So, it would make sense to be able to scroll through the "n" values when 
> looking for the best noise reduction. 
> 
> 73, 
> Drew 
> AF2Z 
> 
> 
>> On 06/20/17 11:48, wa9fvp wrote: 
>> I did a comprehensive test of the K3S noise reduction system and uploaded 
>> the 
>> same document to the Elecraft_K3 Yahoo group. 
>> Elecraft_K3_NoiseReduction.pdf 
>> 
>>  
>> Here's what I concluded. 
>> Settings Fn-1 provides the least noise reduction.  Fn-2 and Fn-3 noise 
>> levels are almost the same and one setting could be eliminated.  Fn-4 
>> provides the most noise reduction and having 3 settings, it would 
>> simplifying NR adjustments.  The NR delays that is, F1-n through F4-n, could 
>> be added to the configuration menu.  There are delay differences in the 
>> noise ripple but aurally, with a complex voice waveform, there’s no 
>> distinction between the delay settings. 
>> Don't get me wrong! I'm not that saying there's something wrong with the 
>> K3/K3S noise reduction. It works very well!  I think there are too many 
>> settings and some can be eliminated.  What are your thoughts? 
>> - 
>> Jack WA9FVP 
>> Sent from my home-brew I5 Core PC 
>> -- 
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>> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. 
>> __ 
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Re: [Elecraft] K3S Noise reduction Test

[wa9fvp]

David W. wrote 
 
Noise reduction is about reducing subjective noise for the listener, not about 
reducing some engineering measurement.  
I replied,
I’m not sure what you mean by “reducing some engineering measurement”. The test 
was to characterize the K3S NR settings.
David W. wrote
An instrument is likely to generate some very simple, or even pure tone, 
signal.  With the sorts of strategy used for noise reduction, and very 
aggressive settings, you could obtain almost perfect results on such a signal, 
but those same settings would make human speech completely unintelligible. 


I  replied,
That’s true.  My complaint is that there isn’t enough level settings. As soon 
as you select F1-1, the NR is already on the edge of being too aggressive.  If 
the setting started at 0 or even 1 and the noise floor dropped in 5db 
increments,  I wouldn’t have this discussion.
Working in telecom for 30 years and in and in the DSP groups for 15 years, the 
single tone test is the only way I know to characterize the LMS algorithm. If 
you have a better test setup, please let me know. 
--
Jack WA9FVP- http://www.willcoele.com/radio_repair  
 

The Radio Reclamation Center (815) 463-9365
 




-
Jack WA9FVP

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Re: [Elecraft] K3S Noise reduction Test

[Jim Brown]

EXACTLY RIGHT!  The scientific study of how we hear and perceive sound 
is called psychoacoustics, and is one of many important disciplines of 
the Acoustical Society of America. Early work at Bell Labs and at 
universities like MIT and Harvard became the basis for stereo.


Some of the first published work was by Joseph Henry, whose name is on 
the unit of inductance in recognition of his invention of meters and 
motors. It was Henry who first observed (around 1850) that when the same 
sound is heard from two directions, the one that arrives first at our 
ears tells us where the sound is coming from. This fact is the basis of 
the Bell Labs stereo patent, and makes it far superior to the Blumlein 
work published a year or so earlier.


73, Jim K9YC

On Wed,6/21/2017 1:14 AM, David Woolley wrote:
Noise reduction is about reducing subjective noise for the listener, 
not about reducing some engineering measurement.  An instrument is 
likely to generate some very simple, or even pure tone, signal. With 
the sorts of strategy used for noise reduction, and very aggressive 
settings, you could obtain almost perfect results on such a signal, 
but those same settings would make human speech completely 
unintelligible.


The big challenge for noise reducers is deciding what is human speech 
and what is noise. That's much more difficult than identifying a pure 
tone. 



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Re: [Elecraft] K3S Noise reduction Test

[John Stengrevics]

Jim,

Is there a similar unit that covers 50 MHz?  Or, a way to modify the 
NCC-1/NCC-2?

73.

John
WA1EAZ

> On Jun 21, 2017, at 12:33 PM, Jim Brown  wrote:
> 
> Yes, the NCC-1 is a superb unit, especially for use on 160, 80, and 40M. It's 
> usefulness diminishes above 30M.  I'm using one to phase a spaced pair of 
> VE3DO loops that are physically aimed at EU. Using the NCC-1, I can shift the 
> pattern +/- 20-30 degrees. The combined loops produce some pretty deep (and 
> narrow) nulls, so it's often possible to peak the signal while nulling a 
> single noise source.
> 
> VE3DO loops are rectangular receiving loops that are 40 ft long by 10 ft 
> high, with the lower horizontal segment about 2 ft off the ground. The loops 
> are optimized for 160M, but work well on 80M. They're spaced 5/8 wavelength 
> on 160, which is about 350 ft. The spaced pair has directivity similar to a 
> full wavelength Beverage, but the vertical pattern is broader for the loops, 
> so the two antennas complement each other for signals arriving at different 
> vertical angles.
> 
> http://www.ok1rr.com/index.php/onair/8-qmgr
> 
> The great thing about the NCC-1 is that as the phase knob is rotated, the 
> phase difference is a nearly linear straight line, AND the amplitude 
> difference is quite small. On 160 and 80, the difference is less than about 
> 0.15 dB; it's a bit greater on 40M, and about 0.5 dB on 20M. That flatness 
> makes it FAR easier to tune than its lower cost alternatives.
> 
> As others have noted, noise cancellation works only for a single source at a 
> time.
> 
> 73, Jim K9YC
> 
> On Tue,6/20/2017 9:45 PM, tomb18 wrote:
> 
>> I think the ncc1 is under rated. Here is an example  of what it can do.
>> Just a note. This is with a small amplified  vertical receive antenna, the 
>> ncc1 and all fed through the k3 Rx loop. It's wwv, and the whole thing is 
>> switched in at the end of the video. 25dBm reduction in the noise. It's also 
>> really useful for eliminating acting one signal on top of the other. For 
>> example Am broadcast dxing... I can get rid of a strong am broadcast on top 
>> of a weak one. Now if only this could be automated and built in to the 
>> radio...
> 
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] K3S Noise reduction Test

[Jim Brown]

Yes, the NCC-1 is a superb unit, especially for use on 160, 80, and 40M. 
It's usefulness diminishes above 30M.  I'm using one to phase a spaced 
pair of VE3DO loops that are physically aimed at EU. Using the NCC-1, I 
can shift the pattern +/- 20-30 degrees. The combined loops produce some 
pretty deep (and narrow) nulls, so it's often possible to peak the 
signal while nulling a single noise source.


VE3DO loops are rectangular receiving loops that are 40 ft long by 10 ft 
high, with the lower horizontal segment about 2 ft off the ground. The 
loops are optimized for 160M, but work well on 80M. They're spaced 5/8 
wavelength on 160, which is about 350 ft. The spaced pair has 
directivity similar to a full wavelength Beverage, but the vertical 
pattern is broader for the loops, so the two antennas complement each 
other for signals arriving at different vertical angles.


http://www.ok1rr.com/index.php/onair/8-qmgr

The great thing about the NCC-1 is that as the phase knob is rotated, 
the phase difference is a nearly linear straight line, AND the amplitude 
difference is quite small. On 160 and 80, the difference is less than 
about 0.15 dB; it's a bit greater on 40M, and about 0.5 dB on 20M. That 
flatness makes it FAR easier to tune than its lower cost alternatives.


As others have noted, noise cancellation works only for a single source 
at a time.


73, Jim K9YC

On Tue,6/20/2017 9:45 PM, tomb18 wrote:


I think the ncc1 is under rated. Here is an example  of what it can do.
Just a note. This is with a small amplified  vertical receive antenna, the ncc1 
and all fed through the k3 Rx loop. It's wwv, and the whole thing is switched 
in at the end of the video. 25dBm reduction in the noise. It's also really 
useful for eliminating acting one signal on top of the other. For example Am 
broadcast dxing... I can get rid of a strong am broadcast on top of a weak one. 
Now if only this could be automated and built in to the radio...



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Re: [Elecraft] K3S Noise reduction Test

[Drew AF2Z]

The VFO-A knob currently has no function while NR "long push" is engaged.

73,
Drew
AF2Z


On 06/20/17 22:20, Nr4c wrote:

But that knob varies a whole other range of NR. How hard is it to turn one knob 
32 clicks?

Sent from my iPhone
...nr4c. bill



On Jun 20, 2017, at 2:51 PM, Drew AF2Z  wrote:

The only thing I would change in NR is to make it easier to scroll through the 
settings. Currently you can only go through the 32 settings sequentially with 
the VFO-B knob, from 1-1 through 8-4. It would be nice if the VFO-A knob could 
be employed to increment and decrement the first parameter.

For example: if you were on NR 1-3 you could scroll directly through 2-3, 3-3, 
4-3, etc using the VFO-A knob.

I don't know the details of NR but believe that all the n-1 settings are related to each 
other as a group; same goes for the n-2 settings, n-3, and n-4. So, it would make sense 
to be able to scroll through the "n" values when looking for the best noise 
reduction.

73,
Drew
AF2Z



On 06/20/17 11:48, wa9fvp wrote:
I did a comprehensive test of the K3S noise reduction system and uploaded the
same document to the Elecraft_K3 Yahoo group.
Elecraft_K3_NoiseReduction.pdf

Here's what I concluded.
Settings Fn-1 provides the least noise reduction.  Fn-2 and Fn-3 noise
levels are almost the same and one setting could be eliminated.  Fn-4
provides the most noise reduction and having 3 settings, it would
simplifying NR adjustments.  The NR delays that is, F1-n through F4-n, could
be added to the configuration menu.  There are delay differences in the
noise ripple but aurally, with a complex voice waveform, there’s no
distinction between the delay settings.
Don't get me wrong! I'm not that saying there's something wrong with the
K3/K3S noise reduction. It works very well!  I think there are too many
settings and some can be eliminated.  What are your thoughts?
-
Jack WA9FVP
Sent from my home-brew I5 Core PC
--
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Re: [Elecraft] K3S Noise reduction Test

[David Woolley]

Noise reduction is about reducing subjective noise for the listener, not 
about reducing some engineering measurement.  An instrument is likely to 
generate some very simple, or even pure tone, signal.  With the sorts of 
strategy used for noise reduction, and very aggressive settings, you 
could obtain almost perfect results on such a signal, but those same 
settings would make human speech completely unintelligible.


The big challenge for noise reducers is deciding what is human speech 
and what is noise. That's much more difficult than identifying a pure tone.


The other sort of test signal that might be used, and the one that is 
implied by the definition of noise factor, would be white noise, and 
noise reducers will have no effect on the signal to noise ratio there. 
They will reduce both equally.


The human brain is actually rather good at noise reduction of human 
speech, but it gets tired.  The aim of noise reducers is to not do quite 
as well, but remove the fatigue element from the human.


As I've noted before, where the real money is in noise reduction 
research is in the hearing aid industry, where the noise can be 
particularly challenging, as it is generally mixed up human speech form 
the other people in the restaurant.


--
David Woolley K2 06123

On 20/06/17 20:44, GRANT YOUNGMAN wrote:

You might want to look at actual (S+N)/N data.  I’m not sure the visual “test”  
tells the full story, since these are complex waveforms.

I did extensive measurement several years ago on the NR functions of the v1 and 
v2 firmware versions of the TenTec Orion (for some reason, noise reduction not 
being “magic” surfaces everywhere as a contentious issue), and the measured 
data did not always match what things ”looked like”.   Not saying they don’t 
here, but it’s improvement in (S+N)/N that’s the end objective of NR regardless 
of what the screen shot looks like.

SpectrumLab can measure this directly.  http://www.qsl.net/dl4yhf/spectra1.html


On Jun 20, 2017, at 3:13 PM, wa9fvp  wrote:

If you look at my data, there’s very little noise level difference in the delay 
settings.



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Re: [Elecraft] K3S Noise reduction Test

[Fred Jensen]

My experience with noise cancellation, by no means exhaustive or even 
quantitative, is that it is surprisingly effective, almost to the point 
of "magic", provided the noise source is a single point. It was 
essentially ineffective if there were multiple sources, or the source 
was extended in space[e.g. a radiating power line].


Perhaps the best signal-to-noise-ratio-improver I've ever found I 
learned as a teen working at a coastal marine station many years ago. 
The Holy Frequency could be extraordinarily noisy at night... the OT had 
me lay my cans on the deskand turn up the gain a little.  Ioften use it 
todayand it beats a noise limiter [I don't think they exist anymore], 
noise blanker[good for impulse noise], DSP, and cancellation.


I don't really know how it works, I suspect it has something to do with 
the broadband noise being more directive than the CW signalbecause if 
I'm over the headphones, it's less effective than if they're a bit off 
to the side.  I've never tried it with SSB, might do that in a free 
moment.  But, it's pretty cheap. [:-)


I've never gotten much use out of my K3's NR/NB but to be fair, I also 
haven't tried it very much.


73,

Fred ("Skip") K6DGW
Sparks NV USA
Washoe County DM09dn

On 6/20/2017 9:04 PM, Dave Cole wrote:

Don,
Thanks for the info, but as John said, I was suggesting a noise 
canceling setup...  I was not clear enough, my error.


73s and thanks,
Dave
NK7Z
http://www.nk7z.net


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Re: [Elecraft] K3S Noise reduction Test

[tomb18]

Just a note. This is with a small amplified  vertical receive antenna, the ncc1 
and all fed through the k3 Rx loop. It's wwv, and the whole thing is switched 
in at the end of the video. 25dBm reduction in the noise. It's also really 
useful for eliminating acting one signal on top of the other. For example Am 
broadcast dxing... I can get rid of a strong am broadcast on top of a weak one. 
Now if only this could be automated and built in to the radio... 


Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
 Original message From: tomb18 <tom...@videotron.ca> Date: 
2017-06-21  12:37 AM  (GMT-05:00) To: Dave Cole <d...@nk7z.net>, 
elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] K3S Noise reduction Test 
I think the ncc1 is under rated. Here is an example  of what it can do. I was 
plagued by a neighbour with outdoor high intensity lights which he insisted on 
leaving on during the day.. It was either this or blasting his house with 
2.4ghz noise whenever his lights were on during the day... It's not the best 
video but it shows what you can achieve... 
https://va2fsq.com/wp-content/uploads/2013-Jan-15-20-43-43.avi 73 Tom 
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
 Original message From: Dave Cole <d...@nk7z.net> Date: 
2017-06-21  12:04 AM  (GMT-05:00) To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: 
[Elecraft] K3S Noise reduction Test 
Don,
Thanks for the info, but as John said, I was suggesting a noise 
canceling setup...  I was not clear enough, my error.

73s and thanks,
Dave
NK7Z
http://www.nk7z.net

On 06/20/2017 06:39 PM, j...@kk9a.com wrote:
> But that is not what NK7Z is suggesting.  He suggested a built in noise
> canceller which would be awesome!
>
> John KK9A
>
> Don Wilhelm wrote
> Tue Jun 20 19:51:45 EDT 2017
>
> Dave,
>
> The K3S has a receive antenna connection so you can do exactly that.
> The low noise antenna is up to the operator to provide.
> If you have the KRX3 option installed, diversity reception may also help.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 6/20/2017 6:21 PM, Dave Cole wrote:
>> What would be really nice would be to have a separate antenna designed
>> for noise reception, and the ability to phase shift it from the normal
>> antenna, allowing for noise cancellation...
>
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Re: [Elecraft] K3S Noise reduction Test

[tomb18]

I think the ncc1 is under rated. Here is an example  of what it can do. I was 
plagued by a neighbour with outdoor high intensity lights which he insisted on 
leaving on during the day.. It was either this or blasting his house with 
2.4ghz noise whenever his lights were on during the day... It's not the best 
video but it shows what you can achieve... 
https://va2fsq.com/wp-content/uploads/2013-Jan-15-20-43-43.avi 73 Tom 
Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
 Original message From: Dave Cole <d...@nk7z.net> Date: 
2017-06-21  12:04 AM  (GMT-05:00) To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: 
[Elecraft] K3S Noise reduction Test 
Don,
Thanks for the info, but as John said, I was suggesting a noise 
canceling setup...  I was not clear enough, my error.

73s and thanks,
Dave
NK7Z
http://www.nk7z.net

On 06/20/2017 06:39 PM, j...@kk9a.com wrote:
> But that is not what NK7Z is suggesting.  He suggested a built in noise
> canceller which would be awesome!
>
> John KK9A
>
> Don Wilhelm wrote
> Tue Jun 20 19:51:45 EDT 2017
>
> Dave,
>
> The K3S has a receive antenna connection so you can do exactly that.
> The low noise antenna is up to the operator to provide.
> If you have the KRX3 option installed, diversity reception may also help.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 6/20/2017 6:21 PM, Dave Cole wrote:
>> What would be really nice would be to have a separate antenna designed
>> for noise reception, and the ability to phase shift it from the normal
>> antenna, allowing for noise cancellation...
>
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Re: [Elecraft] K3S Noise reduction Test

[Dave Cole]

Don,
Thanks for the info, but as John said, I was suggesting a noise 
canceling setup...  I was not clear enough, my error.


73s and thanks,
Dave
NK7Z
http://www.nk7z.net

On 06/20/2017 06:39 PM, j...@kk9a.com wrote:

But that is not what NK7Z is suggesting.  He suggested a built in noise
canceller which would be awesome!

John KK9A

Don Wilhelm wrote
Tue Jun 20 19:51:45 EDT 2017

Dave,

The K3S has a receive antenna connection so you can do exactly that.
The low noise antenna is up to the operator to provide.
If you have the KRX3 option installed, diversity reception may also help.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 6/20/2017 6:21 PM, Dave Cole wrote:

What would be really nice would be to have a separate antenna designed
for noise reception, and the ability to phase shift it from the normal
antenna, allowing for noise cancellation...


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Re: [Elecraft] K3S Noise reduction Test

[Dave Cole]

Thank you John.  That is exactly what I was suggesting.

73s and thanks,
Dave
NK7Z
http://www.nk7z.net

On 06/20/2017 06:39 PM, j...@kk9a.com wrote:

But that is not what NK7Z is suggesting.  He suggested a built in noise
canceller which would be awesome!

John KK9A

Don Wilhelm wrote
Tue Jun 20 19:51:45 EDT 2017

Dave,

The K3S has a receive antenna connection so you can do exactly that.
The low noise antenna is up to the operator to provide.
If you have the KRX3 option installed, diversity reception may also help.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 6/20/2017 6:21 PM, Dave Cole wrote:

What would be really nice would be to have a separate antenna designed
for noise reception, and the ability to phase shift it from the normal
antenna, allowing for noise cancellation...


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Re: [Elecraft] K3S Noise reduction Test

[Robert Cunnings]

Well, not exactly... the K3S doesn't have the ability to perform the 
phase shifting for noise cancellation.


However, the K3 has antenna OUT and IN jacks which allow the use of the 
NCC-1 (now NCC-2) from DX Engineering to perform the noise cancellation. 
I've been doing this for years and it works well. I posted the details on 
this list earlier:


http://www.mail-archive.com/elecraft@mailman.qth.net/msg177064.html

I need noise cancellation more and more as the RF environment in my 
neighborhood grows more hostile each year.


73, Bob NW8L

On Tue, 20 Jun 2017, Don Wilhelm wrote:


Dave,

The K3S has a receive antenna connection so you can do exactly that. The low 
noise antenna is up to the operator to provide.

If you have the KRX3 option installed, diversity reception may also help.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 6/20/2017 6:21 PM, Dave Cole wrote:
What would be really nice would be to have a separate antenna designed for 
noise reception, and the ability to phase shift it from the normal antenna, 
allowing for noise cancellation...



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Re: [Elecraft] K3S Noise reduction Test

[Nr4c]

But that knob varies a whole other range of NR. How hard is it to turn one knob 
32 clicks?

Sent from my iPhone
...nr4c. bill


> On Jun 20, 2017, at 2:51 PM, Drew AF2Z  wrote:
> 
> The only thing I would change in NR is to make it easier to scroll through 
> the settings. Currently you can only go through the 32 settings sequentially 
> with the VFO-B knob, from 1-1 through 8-4. It would be nice if the VFO-A knob 
> could be employed to increment and decrement the first parameter.
> 
> For example: if you were on NR 1-3 you could scroll directly through 2-3, 
> 3-3, 4-3, etc using the VFO-A knob.
> 
> I don't know the details of NR but believe that all the n-1 settings are 
> related to each other as a group; same goes for the n-2 settings, n-3, and 
> n-4. So, it would make sense to be able to scroll through the "n" values when 
> looking for the best noise reduction.
> 
> 73,
> Drew
> AF2Z
> 
> 
>> On 06/20/17 11:48, wa9fvp wrote:
>> I did a comprehensive test of the K3S noise reduction system and uploaded the
>> same document to the Elecraft_K3 Yahoo group.
>> Elecraft_K3_NoiseReduction.pdf
>> 
>> Here's what I concluded.
>> Settings Fn-1 provides the least noise reduction.  Fn-2 and Fn-3 noise
>> levels are almost the same and one setting could be eliminated.  Fn-4
>> provides the most noise reduction and having 3 settings, it would
>> simplifying NR adjustments.  The NR delays that is, F1-n through F4-n, could
>> be added to the configuration menu.  There are delay differences in the
>> noise ripple but aurally, with a complex voice waveform, there’s no
>> distinction between the delay settings.
>> Don't get me wrong! I'm not that saying there's something wrong with the
>> K3/K3S noise reduction. It works very well!  I think there are too many
>> settings and some can be eliminated.  What are your thoughts?
>> -
>> Jack WA9FVP
>> Sent from my home-brew I5 Core PC
>> --
>> View this message in context: 
>> http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3S-Noise-reduction-Test-tp7631913.html
>> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Re: [Elecraft] K3S Noise reduction Test

[brian]

Had an ANC noise canceller like this. MFJ makes one too.  Same idea. 
Collins also had such a thing for their mobile way back when using a 
separate whip on the back of the vehicle.


They work well but only for one signal source at a time.  If you have 
two noise sources located differently, you can cancel only one.


There was also the nastiness of blowing up the inputs of these units 
when operating high power.  Some way of isolating the circuitry or 
protecting it from transmitted RF was needed.  The desire for QSK may 
make this a little difficult.


A conventional noise limiter would still be needed to handle the left 
over sources.


73 de Brian/K3KO



On 6/21/2017 1:39 AM, j...@kk9a.com wrote:

But that is not what NK7Z is suggesting.  He suggested a built in noise
canceller which would be awesome!

John KK9A

Don Wilhelm wrote
Tue Jun 20 19:51:45 EDT 2017

Dave,

The K3S has a receive antenna connection so you can do exactly that.
The low noise antenna is up to the operator to provide.
If you have the KRX3 option installed, diversity reception may also help.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 6/20/2017 6:21 PM, Dave Cole wrote:

What would be really nice would be to have a separate antenna designed
for noise reception, and the ability to phase shift it from the normal
antenna, allowing for noise cancellation...


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---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
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[Elecraft] K3S Noise reduction Test

[john]

But that is not what NK7Z is suggesting.  He suggested a built in noise
canceller which would be awesome! 

John KK9A

Don Wilhelm wrote
Tue Jun 20 19:51:45 EDT 2017

Dave,

The K3S has a receive antenna connection so you can do exactly that. 
The low noise antenna is up to the operator to provide.
If you have the KRX3 option installed, diversity reception may also help.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 6/20/2017 6:21 PM, Dave Cole wrote:
> What would be really nice would be to have a separate antenna designed 
> for noise reception, and the ability to phase shift it from the normal 
> antenna, allowing for noise cancellation...

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Re: [Elecraft] K3S Noise reduction Test

[Don Wilhelm]

Dave,

The K3S has a receive antenna connection so you can do exactly that. 
The low noise antenna is up to the operator to provide.

If you have the KRX3 option installed, diversity reception may also help.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 6/20/2017 6:21 PM, Dave Cole wrote:
What would be really nice would be to have a separate antenna designed 
for noise reception, and the ability to phase shift it from the normal 
antenna, allowing for noise cancellation...



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Re: [Elecraft] K3S Noise reduction Test

[GRANT YOUNGMAN]

My reference to “complex waveforms” was the underlying noise waveform, not the 
signal of interest, which for this type of test would normally be a single tone.

> On Jun 20, 2017, at 4:34 PM, wa9fvp  wrote:
> 
> As I mentioned in my document 
> 
> “Human speech contains sinusoidal elements that the LMS algorithm adapts to 
> and creates a filter around the speech waveform.  The waveform constantly 
> changes and to conform to the human speech patterns, the LMS filter must 
> continuously change the filter’s shape.  Under these conditions, it is too 
> difficult to characterize the K3/K3S NR adjustments.  
> 
> That’s why I used a single tone test.
> 
> 

Grant NQ5T
K3 #2091, KX3 #8342



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Re: [Elecraft] K3S Noise reduction Test

[Dave Cole]

What would be really nice would be to have a separate antenna designed 
for noise reception, and the ability to phase shift it from the normal 
antenna, allowing for noise cancellation...


73s and thanks,
Dave
NK7Z
http://www.nk7z.net

On 06/20/2017 11:53 AM, wa9fvp wrote:

Believe it not, the idea of adding NR delay is not new.  Back in 91, when I
did the testing for the Hamblaster, we were experimenting with NR delays.
Even with the Hamblaster the delay function made very little difference.   I
only settled on two delay settings.  All of the others, there were about 50,
yield no change in the aural bandwidth.  The NR reduction level had the
greatest impact.

I used the DSP Noise Blanker setting on several occasions and found it more
affective on low level electrical noise.  The NR setting or the conventional
NB wasn't as affective.



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Re: [Elecraft] K3S Noise reduction Test

[Drew AF2Z]

Even if we have to slog through all the NR settings sequentially I'd 
still prefer to keep them all, no matter how similar they appear on the 
scope. Having used the K3 for a number of years I have at times noticed 
an audible difference between them when copying weak CW signals. Can't 
really characterize it further than that, but they do make a difference.


73,
Drew
AF2Z


On 06/20/17 15:13, wa9fvp wrote:

If you look at my data, there’s very little noise level difference in the delay 
settings. The level or aggressiveness is what reduces the noise. Having two 
knobs to change the parameters is also a good idea.  I would prefer a finer 
adjustment in the level settings like 0 to 10
For people, like me, that like to tinker, the delays can be on a separate knob 
or in the configure menus.  For normal operation or during a contest, I find it 
too cumbersome to dial through all of the settings to find the best one.
  



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Re: [Elecraft] K3S Noise reduction Test

[wa9fvp]

As I mentioned in my document 
 
“Human speech contains sinusoidal elements that the LMS algorithm adapts to and 
creates a filter around the speech waveform.  The waveform constantly changes 
and to conform to the human speech patterns, the LMS filter must continuously 
change the filter’s shape.  Under these conditions, it is too difficult to 
characterize the K3/K3S NR adjustments.  
 
That’s why I used a single tone test.
 
Human speech contains sinusoidal along with non-sinusoidal elements.  TH, S and 
W are a few non-sinusoidal elements and are more analogous to white and pink 
noise.  By attacking these elements, an aggressive NR reduction scheme can 
rendered speech unintelligible.  Other languages have an abundance 
non-sinusoidal speech and the question is, how will a NR scheme treat it?  In 
the telecom engineering lab where I worked, to test eco-cancelers, we actually 
used recordings of other languages.  Using tools that I have at my disposal, my 
test was to simply characterize the K3/K3S NR system.  
 
Noise reduction is magic but the bottom line is, how much does it reduce noise 
and is it so aggressive that is makes human speech un-intelligible?  The most 
difficult part is to find the correct parameters that can satisfy both 
conditions.  
 
-- 

Jack WA9FVP- http://www.willcoele.com/radio_repair  
 

The Radio Reclamation Center (815) 463-9365
 
From: Grant Youngman-2 [via Elecraft] 
[mailto:ml+s365791n7631926...@n2.nabble.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 2:46 PM
To: wa9fvp 
Subject: Re: K3S Noise reduction Test
 
You might want to look at actual (S+N)/N data.  I’m not sure the visual “test”  
tells the full story, since these are complex waveforms. 

I did extensive measurement several years ago on the NR functions of the v1 and 
v2 firmware versions of the TenTec Orion (for some reason, noise reduction not 
being “magic” surfaces everywhere as a contentious issue), and the measured 
data did not always match what things ”looked like”.   Not saying they don’t 
here, but it’s improvement in (S+N)/N that’s the end objective of NR regardless 
of what the screen shot looks like. 

SpectrumLab can measure this directly.  http://www.qsl.net/dl4yhf/spectra1.html

> On Jun 20, 2017, at 3:13 PM, wa9fvp <[hidden email]> wrote: 
> 
> If you look at my data, there’s very little noise level difference in the 
> delay settings. 

Grant NQ5T 
K3 #2091, KX3 #8342 







-
Jack WA9FVP

Sent from my home-brew I5 Core PC
--
View this message in context: 
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3S-Noise-reduction-Test-tp7631913p7631928.html
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Re: [Elecraft] K3S Noise reduction Test

[GRANT YOUNGMAN]

You might want to look at actual (S+N)/N data.  I’m not sure the visual “test”  
tells the full story, since these are complex waveforms. 

I did extensive measurement several years ago on the NR functions of the v1 and 
v2 firmware versions of the TenTec Orion (for some reason, noise reduction not 
being “magic” surfaces everywhere as a contentious issue), and the measured 
data did not always match what things ”looked like”.   Not saying they don’t 
here, but it’s improvement in (S+N)/N that’s the end objective of NR regardless 
of what the screen shot looks like.

SpectrumLab can measure this directly.  http://www.qsl.net/dl4yhf/spectra1.html

> On Jun 20, 2017, at 3:13 PM, wa9fvp  wrote:
> 
> If you look at my data, there’s very little noise level difference in the 
> delay settings. 

Grant NQ5T
K3 #2091, KX3 #8342



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Re: [Elecraft] K3S Noise reduction Test

[wa9fvp]

If you look at my data, there’s very little noise level difference in the delay 
settings. The level or aggressiveness is what reduces the noise. Having two 
knobs to change the parameters is also a good idea.  I would prefer a finer 
adjustment in the level settings like 0 to 10
For people, like me, that like to tinker, the delays can be on a separate knob 
or in the configure menus.  For normal operation or during a contest, I find it 
too cumbersome to dial through all of the settings to find the best one.
 
-- 

Jack WA9FVP- http://www.willcoele.com/radio_repair  
 

The Radio Reclamation Center (815) 463-9365
 
From: Drew AF2Z [via Elecraft] [mailto:ml+s365791n7631921...@n2.nabble.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 1:54 PM
To: wa9fvp 
Subject: Re: K3S Noise reduction Test
 
The only thing I would change in NR is to make it easier to scroll 
through the settings. Currently you can only go through the 32 settings 
sequentially with the VFO-B knob, from 1-1 through 8-4. It would be nice 
if the VFO-A knob could be employed to increment and decrement the first 
parameter. 

For example: if you were on NR 1-3 you could scroll directly through 
2-3, 3-3, 4-3, etc using the VFO-A knob. 

I don't know the details of NR but believe that all the n-1 settings are 
related to each other as a group; same goes for the n-2 settings, n-3, 
and n-4. So, it would make sense to be able to scroll through the "n" 
values when looking for the best noise reduction. 

73, 
Drew 
AF2Z 






-
Jack WA9FVP

Sent from my home-brew I5 Core PC
--
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Re: [Elecraft] K3S Noise reduction Test

[wa9fvp]

The K3/K3S Noise Reduction is disabled for FM and Data modes.
 
-- 

Jack WA9FVP- http://www.willcoele.com/radio_repair
 

The Radio Reclamation Center (815) 463-9365
 
From: Jim Brown-10 [via Elecraft]
[mailto:ml+s365791n7631918...@n2.nabble.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 12:22 PM
To: wa9fvp 
Subject: Re: K3S Noise reduction Test
 
On Tue,6/20/2017 10:09 AM, Dave Cole wrote: 
> It works very well!  I think there are too many 
> settings and some can be eliminated.  What are your thoughts? 

Elecraft's NB and NR systems are designed so that they can be optimized 
for a wide variety of noise, and a wide variety of operating modes -- 
CW, SSB, AM, FM, and a dozen different digital modes. What's optimum for 
you may not be optimum for others with DIFFERENT sorts of noise and 
different modes. Like with shoes (and earphones), one size does not fit 
all. 

The logical response of a user is to do what you did -- try all the 
settings and find those that work best for your noise and operating 
conditions. 

73, Jim K9YC 







-
Jack WA9FVP

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Re: [Elecraft] K3S Noise reduction Test

[wa9fvp]

Believe it not, the idea of adding NR delay is not new.  Back in 91, when I
did the testing for the Hamblaster, we were experimenting with NR delays.
Even with the Hamblaster the delay function made very little difference.   I
only settled on two delay settings.  All of the others, there were about 50,
yield no change in the aural bandwidth.  The NR reduction level had the
greatest impact.
 
I used the DSP Noise Blanker setting on several occasions and found it more
affective on low level electrical noise.  The NR setting or the conventional
NB wasn't as affective. 
 
-- 

Jack WA9FVP- http://www.willcoele.com/radio_repair
 

The Radio Reclamation Center (815) 463-9365
 
From: Nicklas Johnson [via Elecraft]
[mailto:ml+s365791n763191...@n2.nabble.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 12:30 PM
To: wa9fvp 
Subject: Re: K3S Noise reduction Test
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, but is it not the case that the NR on the K3 isn't 
just a case of "more" as you change settings, but also a case of changing 
the _type_ (or strategy) of NR?  Or am I thinking of NB? 

   Nick 

On 20 June 2017 at 10:20, Jim Brown <[hidden email]> wrote: 

> On Tue,6/20/2017 10:09 AM, Dave Cole wrote: 
> 
>> It works very well!  I think there are too many 
>> settings and some can be eliminated.  What are your thoughts? 
>> 
> 
> Elecraft's NB and NR systems are designed so that they can be optimized 
> for a wide variety of noise, and a wide variety of operating modes -- CW, 
> SSB, AM, FM, and a dozen different digital modes. What's optimum for you 
> may not be optimum for others with DIFFERENT sorts of noise and different 
> modes. Like with shoes (and earphones), one size does not fit all. 
> 
> The logical response of a user is to do what you did -- try all the 
> settings and find those that work best for your noise and operating 
> conditions. 
> 
> 73, Jim K9YC 
> 
> 
> __ 
> Elecraft mailing list 
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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> Post: mailto:[hidden email] 
> 
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email] 
> 



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real. And if you have to lie to support a position, that position is not 
worth supporting. 
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Re: [Elecraft] K3S Noise reduction Test

[Drew AF2Z]

The only thing I would change in NR is to make it easier to scroll 
through the settings. Currently you can only go through the 32 settings 
sequentially with the VFO-B knob, from 1-1 through 8-4. It would be nice 
if the VFO-A knob could be employed to increment and decrement the first 
parameter.


For example: if you were on NR 1-3 you could scroll directly through 
2-3, 3-3, 4-3, etc using the VFO-A knob.


I don't know the details of NR but believe that all the n-1 settings are 
related to each other as a group; same goes for the n-2 settings, n-3, 
and n-4. So, it would make sense to be able to scroll through the "n" 
values when looking for the best noise reduction.


73,
Drew
AF2Z


On 06/20/17 11:48, wa9fvp wrote:

I did a comprehensive test of the K3S noise reduction system and uploaded the
same document to the Elecraft_K3 Yahoo group.


Elecraft_K3_NoiseReduction.pdf


Here's what I concluded.

Settings Fn-1 provides the least noise reduction.  Fn-2 and Fn-3 noise
levels are almost the same and one setting could be eliminated.  Fn-4
provides the most noise reduction and having 3 settings, it would
simplifying NR adjustments.  The NR delays that is, F1-n through F4-n, could
be added to the configuration menu.  There are delay differences in the
noise ripple but aurally, with a complex voice waveform, there’s no
distinction between the delay settings.


Don't get me wrong! I'm not that saying there's something wrong with the
K3/K3S noise reduction. It works very well!  I think there are too many
settings and some can be eliminated.  What are your thoughts?



-
Jack WA9FVP

Sent from my home-brew I5 Core PC
--
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Re: [Elecraft] K3S Noise reduction Test

[wa9fvp]

Back in the early 90’s I worked with another engineer on a QST inspired project 
called “The Hamblaster”.  It was a DSP based sound card that did, noise 
reduction.  I should probably say “done there, did that”.   To test the 
Hamblaster noise reduction, I did a similar test at the audio level except I 
used a pseudorandom noise generator and an audio oscillator.   On January and 
October of 1992, I wrote articles in QEX magazine “A Birth of a New DSP Board” 
and “Developing Software for DSP”.
 
-- 

Jack WA9FVP- http://www.willcoele.com/radio_repair  
 

The Radio Reclamation Center (815) 463-9365
 
From: Clay Autery [via Elecraft] [mailto:ml+s365791n7631916...@n2.nabble.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 12:07 PM
To: wa9fvp 
Subject: Re: K3S Noise reduction Test
 
To what productive/beneficial end? 

__ 
Clay Autery, KY5G 






-
Jack WA9FVP

Sent from my home-brew I5 Core PC
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Re: [Elecraft] K3S Noise reduction Test

[Nicklas Johnson]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is it not the case that the NR on the K3 isn't
just a case of "more" as you change settings, but also a case of changing
the _type_ (or strategy) of NR?  Or am I thinking of NB?

   Nick

On 20 June 2017 at 10:20, Jim Brown  wrote:

> On Tue,6/20/2017 10:09 AM, Dave Cole wrote:
>
>> It works very well!  I think there are too many
>> settings and some can be eliminated.  What are your thoughts?
>>
>
> Elecraft's NB and NR systems are designed so that they can be optimized
> for a wide variety of noise, and a wide variety of operating modes -- CW,
> SSB, AM, FM, and a dozen different digital modes. What's optimum for you
> may not be optimum for others with DIFFERENT sorts of noise and different
> modes. Like with shoes (and earphones), one size does not fit all.
>
> The logical response of a user is to do what you did -- try all the
> settings and find those that work best for your noise and operating
> conditions.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
>
>
> __
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to n...@n6ol.us
>



-- 
*N6OL*
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real. And if you have to lie to support a position, that position is not
worth supporting.
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Re: [Elecraft] K3S Noise reduction Test

[Jim Brown]

On Tue,6/20/2017 10:09 AM, Dave Cole wrote:

It works very well!  I think there are too many
settings and some can be eliminated.  What are your thoughts? 


Elecraft's NB and NR systems are designed so that they can be optimized 
for a wide variety of noise, and a wide variety of operating modes -- 
CW, SSB, AM, FM, and a dozen different digital modes. What's optimum for 
you may not be optimum for others with DIFFERENT sorts of noise and 
different modes. Like with shoes (and earphones), one size does not fit 
all.


The logical response of a user is to do what you did -- try all the 
settings and find those that work best for your noise and operating 
conditions.


73, Jim K9YC

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Re: [Elecraft] K3S Noise reduction Test

[Dave Cole]

Thanks for sharing!

73s and thanks,
Dave
NK7Z
http://www.nk7z.net

On 06/20/2017 08:48 AM, wa9fvp wrote:

I did a comprehensive test of the K3S noise reduction system and uploaded the
same document to the Elecraft_K3 Yahoo group.


Elecraft_K3_NoiseReduction.pdf


Here's what I concluded.

Settings Fn-1 provides the least noise reduction.  Fn-2 and Fn-3 noise
levels are almost the same and one setting could be eliminated.  Fn-4
provides the most noise reduction and having 3 settings, it would
simplifying NR adjustments.  The NR delays that is, F1-n through F4-n, could
be added to the configuration menu.  There are delay differences in the
noise ripple but aurally, with a complex voice waveform, there’s no
distinction between the delay settings.


Don't get me wrong! I'm not that saying there's something wrong with the
K3/K3S noise reduction. It works very well!  I think there are too many
settings and some can be eliminated.  What are your thoughts?



-
Jack WA9FVP

Sent from my home-brew I5 Core PC
--
View this message in context: 
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3S-Noise-reduction-Test-tp7631913.html
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Re: [Elecraft] K3S Noise reduction Test

[Clay Autery]

To what productive/beneficial end?

__
Clay Autery, KY5G

On 6/20/2017 10:48 AM, wa9fvp wrote:
> I did a comprehensive test of the K3S noise reduction system and uploaded the
> same document to the Elecraft_K3 Yahoo group. 
>
>
> Elecraft_K3_NoiseReduction.pdf
> 
>   
>
> Here's what I concluded.
>
> Settings Fn-1 provides the least noise reduction.  Fn-2 and Fn-3 noise
> levels are almost the same and one setting could be eliminated.  Fn-4
> provides the most noise reduction and having 3 settings, it would
> simplifying NR adjustments.  The NR delays that is, F1-n through F4-n, could
> be added to the configuration menu.  There are delay differences in the
> noise ripple but aurally, with a complex voice waveform, there’s no
> distinction between the delay settings.
>
>
> Don't get me wrong! I'm not that saying there's something wrong with the
> K3/K3S noise reduction. It works very well!  I think there are too many
> settings and some can be eliminated.  What are your thoughts?
>
>
>
> -
> Jack WA9FVP
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[Elecraft] K3S Noise reduction Test

[wa9fvp]

I did a comprehensive test of the K3S noise reduction system and uploaded the
same document to the Elecraft_K3 Yahoo group. 


Elecraft_K3_NoiseReduction.pdf

  

Here's what I concluded.

Settings Fn-1 provides the least noise reduction.  Fn-2 and Fn-3 noise
levels are almost the same and one setting could be eliminated.  Fn-4
provides the most noise reduction and having 3 settings, it would
simplifying NR adjustments.  The NR delays that is, F1-n through F4-n, could
be added to the configuration menu.  There are delay differences in the
noise ripple but aurally, with a complex voice waveform, there’s no
distinction between the delay settings.


Don't get me wrong! I'm not that saying there's something wrong with the
K3/K3S noise reduction. It works very well!  I think there are too many
settings and some can be eliminated.  What are your thoughts?



-
Jack WA9FVP

Sent from my home-brew I5 Core PC
--
View this message in context: 
http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/K3S-Noise-reduction-Test-tp7631913.html
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