Re: [Elecraft] RFI and Direct tv or Dish network

[Jim Brown]

On Thu,5/19/2016 6:41 AM, Warren Merkel wrote:

Thanks for the note Jim,

However I've already got multiple passes of the OCF Feedline fed through
a stack of five 2.4"  #31 donuts, per your very own, excellent
RFI-Ham.pdf article.   Picture on my QRZ page.
https://www.qrz.com/db/KD4Z


But that choke is in the wrong place -- to kill feedline current, it 
must be at the FEEDPOINT, up in the air where the feedline connects to 
the horizontal part of the antenna. Remember -- this is not DC, it is 
RF, and the feedline between the feedpoint and the choke is part of the 
antenna. All you have done is make current small at the location of the 
choke, but because the feedline is part of the antenna, current will 
vary along it following the laws of physics that determine how antennas 
work. To understand this, think of an ordinary resonant center-fed 
dipole. Current is near zero at the ends (it's an open circuit, with 
only capacitive coupling to space), and peaks at the center (because the 
center is a quarter wavelength from the end point).  The same thing is 
happening with your feedline -- common mode current is near zero at the 
choke (you've forced that with the choke) and increases along the line 
toward the feedpoint.


The problem with antennas fed with open wire line is that it is simply 
not practical to choke them at the feedpoint. OCF antennas have the 
additional problem that the off-center feed makes them VERY unbalanced, 
which creates a lot of common mode current on the feedline.  This 
doesn't prevent them from working as antennas, but it does put a lot of 
RF in the shack and the feedline can also receive a lot of noise (if 
there is any around it).



The RG6  has a stack of three donuts with a large number (didn't count)
of turns, located at the demark point to the house.  I guess I could add
another set and spread out the Z over frequency a bit more.


Spreading Z over frequency depends on the frequency range where 
transmitting causes problems.



I believe I need to look for other entry points to the entertainment
system as a whole, as the DirecTV DVR is network connected and of
course, connected to an AV receiver.  Lots of points of entry to squelch.


I don't remember seeing a description of the symptoms of your problem.  
I would expect that interference to the DirectTV unit would be indicated 
by "breakup" -- a failure to decode, or interruptions in the decoding of 
the signal.  If that isn't happening, but you're hearing detected audio 
or clicks, I'd suspect gear in the entertainment system and work on 
choking cables connected to it.


But never rule out the possibility that there can be multiple points of 
ingress to that system.


73, Jim K9YC


Warren, KD4Z

On 5/18/2016 8:29 PM, Jim Brown  wrote:

Your antenna, an off-center-fed Windom, is notorious for generating

common mode current on the feedline, and there's no way to choke it
effectively to kill that current. So what you're calling a feedline
Mother Nature calls part of the antenna. THAT'S a primary cause of your
problem.

If you're having issues on 80M, you'll need at least 13 turns of the RG6
through a single #31 toroid to make a dent in the common mode current.

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Re: [Elecraft] RFI and Direct tv or Dish network

[Warren Merkel]

Thanks for the note Jim,

However I've already got multiple passes of the OCF Feedline fed through
a stack of five 2.4"  #31 donuts, per your very own, excellent
RFI-Ham.pdf article.   Picture on my QRZ page. 
https://www.qrz.com/db/KD4Z  

The RG6  has a stack of three donuts with a large number (didn't count)
of turns, located at the demark point to the house.  I guess I could add
another set and spread out the Z over frequency a bit more.

I believe I need to look for other entry points to the entertainment
system as a whole, as the DirecTV DVR is network connected and of
course, connected to an AV receiver.  Lots of points of entry to squelch.

Warren, KD4Z

On 5/18/2016 8:29 PM, Jim Brown  wrote:

Your antenna, an off-center-fed Windom, is notorious for generating

common mode current on the feedline, and there's no way to choke it 
effectively to kill that current. So what you're calling a feedline 
Mother Nature calls part of the antenna. THAT'S a primary cause of your 
problem.

If you're having issues on 80M, you'll need at least 13 turns of the RG6 
through a single #31 toroid to make a dent in the common mode current.

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Re: [Elecraft] RFI and Direct tv or Dish network

[Edward R Cole]

First off, the Dish-NET receiver produced no RFI.  It was not digital 
satellite so used s-video connections to Home Theater receiver which 
was connected to TV via HDMI.  New Direct-TV receiver is high-def 
digital receiver so it uses HDMI interconnect to home 
theater.  TV/home theater is on other side of wall from ham shack.


The PS is not a wall wart.  It looks more like an overgrown laptop 
PS.  But I can try toroids on power cable and HDMI to see if that 
quiets it.  Really no problem most of the time as 2m is not in use 
when TV is in use.  I have not determined what the dc voltage out of 
the satellite PS.


KX3 in AM mode works fine as RFI sniffer.

73, Ed - KL7UW

From: "John K9UWA" <j...@johnjeanantiqueradio.com>
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] RFI and Direct tv or Dish network
Message-ID: <573c9d63.28664.20e1d...@john.johnjeanantiqueradio.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Jim is 100% correct. The Direct TV receivers are HORRIBLE for noise
generation. Maybe you can't hear it if your Ham Antenna is far enough away
but it is there for sure. I bought a Sony model ICF-2001 to use looking for
various noises about the house. You don't want the later models as they
have auto noise blankers in them. The radio covers AM/SW/FM and does
AM or SSB.

Jim is exactly correct regarding the Wall Wart type switcher supply on these
Direct TV receivers. They are 12.6 vdc so easy for us Hams to pick up a
nice small linear transformer powered regulated supply. I also hooked up
the Modem and Router to this same linear supply. Yes every one of them
made noise.

Next the HDMI cable from the Direct TV receiver to the TV set also mades
lots of racket. I use TWO of the FT-240 mix 31 cores and managed to get
about 5 turns through both chokes. That killed the HDMI cable noise.

John k9uwa




73, Ed - KL7UW
http://www.kl7uw.com
"Kits made by KL7UW"
Dubus Mag business:
dubus...@gmail.com

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Re: [Elecraft] RFI and Direct tv or Dish network

[Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft]

Great info. :-)

Now that the OPs question is answered, let's close the thread now in the 
interest of containing email overload for our other readers.
73,
Eric (in the air heading to Dayton..)
Moderator
elecraft.com
_..._



> On May 18, 2016, at 9:56 AM, w9hak  wrote:
> 
> Thanks to all that replied to my question. Great list!

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Re: [Elecraft] RFI and Direct tv or Dish network

[w9hak]

Thanks to all that replied to my question. Great list!


Smith Bradford

W9HAK



On 5/17/2016 3:15 PM, w9hak wrote:
I am contemplating dropping TWC and going to a satellite system. Any 
advise on rfi would be appreciated.


Smith Bradford
W9HAK



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Re: [Elecraft] RFI and Direct tv or Dish network

[John K9UWA]

Jim is 100% correct. The Direct TV receivers are HORRIBLE for noise 
generation. Maybe you can't hear it if your Ham Antenna is far enough away 
but it is there for sure. I bought a Sony model ICF-2001 to use looking for 
various noises about the house. You don't want the later models as they 
have auto noise blankers in them. The radio covers AM/SW/FM and does 
AM or SSB. 

Jim is exactly correct regarding the Wall Wart type switcher supply on these 
Direct TV receivers. They are 12.6 vdc so easy for us Hams to pick up a 
nice small linear transformer powered regulated supply. I also hooked up 
the Modem and Router to this same linear supply. Yes every one of them 
made noise. 

Next the HDMI cable from the Direct TV receiver to the TV set also mades 
lots of racket. I use TWO of the FT-240 mix 31 cores and managed to get 
about 5 turns through both chokes. That killed the HDMI cable noise. 

John k9uwa


> On Tue,5/17/2016 8:26 PM, Edward R Cole wrote:
> > I suppose some ferrites and shielding the separate switcher would 
> > solve this.
> 
> Or replace the switcher with a linear supply.
> 
> 73, Jim K9YC

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Re: [Elecraft] RFI and Direct tv or Dish network

[j...@kk9a.com]

I have no RFI with Dish.  Try using a balanced antenna with a choke and
quality coax.

John KK9A

Warren Merkel
Wed May 18 08:23:30 EDT 2016

I have a DirecTV system and haven't had as good luck with RFI as the
others here.   My dish is about 40 feet directly below and near the end
of an OCF 80m Windom.   It worked out that was the only realistic
position that afforded full Sat views through the trees.

Usually nothing happens at 100w HF output, but when I run the power up
to 500w (depending on band), two of my DVRs either "turn off" (standby
really) or start randomly recording whatever channel is being tuned at
the time.  I've got the dish grounded and the RG6 feed is passed
multiple passes through large #31 ferrites, with no overall improvement
in RFI.

I would recommend much more separation of antennas and feedline than I
have, if possible.

Warren, KD4Z

On 5/17/2016 10:08 PM, w9hak  wrote:
I am contemplating dropping TWC and going to a satellite system. Any

advise on rfi would be appreciated.

Smith Bradford
W9HAK


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Re: [Elecraft] RFI and Direct tv or Dish network

[Jim Brown]

On Wed,5/18/2016 5:23 AM, Warren Merkel wrote:

I would recommend much more separation of antennas and feedline than I have, if 
possible.


Your antenna, an off-center-fed Windom, is notorious for generating 
common mode current on the feedline, and there's no way to choke it 
effectively to kill that current. So what you're calling a feedline 
Mother Nature calls part of the antenna. THAT'S a primary cause of your 
problem.


If you're having issues on 80M, you'll need at least 13 turns of the RG6 
through a single #31 toroid to make a dent in the common mode current.


Grounding the dish is important for lightning safety, but it is NOT part 
of a solution for RFI. The earth is not a "sump" into which RF is poured.


73, Jim K9YC

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Re: [Elecraft] RFI and Direct tv or Dish network

[Jim Brown]

On Tue,5/17/2016 8:26 PM, Edward R Cole wrote:
I suppose some ferrites and shielding the separate switcher would 
solve this.


Or replace the switcher with a linear supply.

73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Elecraft] RFI and Direct tv or Dish network

[Ramon Tristani]

I used to have “fiber to the home” while living in Bloomington, Indiana. The 
provider is Smithville Fiber and in general, their TV, Internet, Telephone 
bundle is excellent and price wise, very competitive. Having said that, their 
interface equipment (external fiberoptic to ethernet inside the home) is of 
such a poor quality that even while tuning the radio with less than 5 watts, 
the internet would freeze and cease to work. I tried to use multiple RF chokes 
on the coax from the antenna, the internal ethernet distribution inside the 
house, even shielding the outside interface box the best I could,  but nothing 
worked. Other hams in the Bloomington area have the same experience and all of 
us traced it to the poor components and lack of shielding (contrary to FCC 
requirements) that they use in the provider’s installation. Obviously they 
never considered that ham radio operator exist and are protected under the FCC 
Rules. So we went as a group and met with their management. They promised to 
take action. I don’t know if they every did. Since then, I moved to North 
Carolina and am now using Time Warner Cable. I have a Hex Beam in my backyard 
using 100 watts. I also have a doublet fed with window line and a balun inside 
my attic, same power. No problems to report up to this date. 

So, it is quite possible that the providers are using the least expensive 
equipment for cable, TV, and internet distribution. In my case back in 
Bloomington, Smithville had to change the cable box three times because of 
defects in materials and workmanship. I know that companies have to make money 
to subsist, but buying the lowest bidder sometimes brings its own problems. If 
in doubt, check NASA’s experience!

Ramón E. Tristani Sr.
r.trist...@gmail.com
NQ9V



> On May 18, 2016, at 9:21 AM, David Cutter <d.cut...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> 
> Some OCF dipoles work very well when used with a 2-choke balun, see DJ0IP for 
> suitable designs.  Spiderbeam make proper 2-choke baluns for their OCF 
> dipoles but I don't know of any others.   It's all about suppressing those 
> common mode currents on the outside of the coax.  He and I have both measured 
> common mode currents with different chokes; see his site for details.  
> http://www.dj0ip.de/balun-stuff/
> 
> David
> G3UNA
> 
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Warren Merkel" <hullspee...@gmail.com>
> To: <elecraft@mailman.qth.net>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2016 1:23 PM
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] RFI and Direct tv or Dish network
> 
> 
>> I have a DirecTV system and haven't had as good luck with RFI as the
>> others here.   My dish is about 40 feet directly below and near the end
>> of an OCF 80m Windom.   It worked out that was the only realistic
>> position that afforded full Sat views through the trees. 
>> 
>> Usually nothing happens at 100w HF output, but when I run the power up
>> to 500w (depending on band), two of my DVRs either "turn off" (standby
>> really) or start randomly recording whatever channel is being tuned at
>> the time.  I've got the dish grounded and the RG6 feed is passed
>> multiple passes through large #31 ferrites, with no overall improvement
>> in RFI.
>> 
>> I would recommend much more separation of antennas and feedline than I
>> have, if possible.
>> 
>> Warren, KD4Z
>> 
>> On 5/17/2016 10:08 PM, w9hak <w9...@twc.com> wrote:
>> I am contemplating dropping TWC and going to a satellite system. Any
>> 
>> advise on rfi would be appreciated.
>> 
>> Smith Bradford
>> W9HAK
>> 
>> __
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Re: [Elecraft] RFI and Direct tv or Dish network

[David Cutter]

Some OCF dipoles work very well when used with a 2-choke balun, see DJ0IP for 
suitable designs.  Spiderbeam make proper 2-choke baluns for their OCF dipoles 
but I don't know of any others.   It's all about suppressing those common mode 
currents on the outside of the coax.  He and I have both measured common mode 
currents with different chokes; see his site for details.  
http://www.dj0ip.de/balun-stuff/

David
G3UNA


- Original Message - 
From: "Warren Merkel" <hullspee...@gmail.com>
To: <elecraft@mailman.qth.net>
Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2016 1:23 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] RFI and Direct tv or Dish network


>I have a DirecTV system and haven't had as good luck with RFI as the
> others here.   My dish is about 40 feet directly below and near the end
> of an OCF 80m Windom.   It worked out that was the only realistic
> position that afforded full Sat views through the trees. 
> 
> Usually nothing happens at 100w HF output, but when I run the power up
> to 500w (depending on band), two of my DVRs either "turn off" (standby
> really) or start randomly recording whatever channel is being tuned at
> the time.  I've got the dish grounded and the RG6 feed is passed
> multiple passes through large #31 ferrites, with no overall improvement
> in RFI.
> 
> I would recommend much more separation of antennas and feedline than I
> have, if possible.
> 
> Warren, KD4Z
> 
> On 5/17/2016 10:08 PM, w9hak <w9...@twc.com> wrote:
> I am contemplating dropping TWC and going to a satellite system. Any
> 
> advise on rfi would be appreciated.
> 
> Smith Bradford
> W9HAK
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] RFI and Direct tv or Dish network

[Warren Merkel]

I have a DirecTV system and haven't had as good luck with RFI as the
others here.   My dish is about 40 feet directly below and near the end
of an OCF 80m Windom.   It worked out that was the only realistic
position that afforded full Sat views through the trees. 

Usually nothing happens at 100w HF output, but when I run the power up
to 500w (depending on band), two of my DVRs either "turn off" (standby
really) or start randomly recording whatever channel is being tuned at
the time.  I've got the dish grounded and the RG6 feed is passed
multiple passes through large #31 ferrites, with no overall improvement
in RFI.

I would recommend much more separation of antennas and feedline than I
have, if possible.

Warren, KD4Z

On 5/17/2016 10:08 PM, w9hak  wrote:
I am contemplating dropping TWC and going to a satellite system. Any

advise on rfi would be appreciated.

Smith Bradford
W9HAK

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Re: [Elecraft] RFI and Direct tv or Dish network

[Edward R Cole]

Had Dish-NET for several years and switched to Direct-TV two years 
ago during a time there was contract dispute between Ch.13 
(Anchorage) and Dish-NET that threatened that they would not carry 
the network programming.  We are 65-90 miles from the TV stations 
which makes digital TV not watchable from off-air reception.


No RFI either way from the mw satellite system but the new Direct-TV 
receiver switching PS gets into my 2m receiver.  Fortunately, I am 
not using 2m when watching TV.  We power-off the AC to the 
entertainment equipment when not using it (saves power consumption over time).


I suppose some ferrites and shielding the separate switcher would solve this.

73, Ed - KL7UW
http://www.kl7uw.com
"Kits made by KL7UW"
Dubus Mag business:
dubus...@gmail.com

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Re: [Elecraft] RFI and Direct tv or Dish network

[Todd Ruby]

Not that I'm a fan of Verizon the company, I'm not, but FIOS will rid you of 
all RFI blues. 

My neighbors had Comcast and I would get the dreaded phone call time and again 
that I was messing up their TV. Thank goodness they are great people. Then they 
switched to FIOS and now I can contest to my heart's content running 1.5 kW 
with my 4 element SteppIR 100' above their TV room. No more RFI phone calls!

73

Todd
WB2ZAB
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Re: [Elecraft] RFI and Direct tv or Dish network

[Mike Dodd]

On 5/17/2016 4:15 PM, w9hak wrote:

I am contemplating dropping TWC and going to a satellite system. Any
advice on rfi would be appreciated.


We have DirecTV, and there is no interference from my K3s on 80-6M. 
Also, the DirecTV receiver does not interfere with ham band reception.


--
73, Mike N4CF
Louisa County, VA USA
Elecraft K3s/100
Carolina Windom up 45'
http://n4cf.mdodd.com
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Re: [Elecraft] RFI and Direct tv or Dish network

[Goldtr8 (KD8NNU)]

I have Direct TV with no RF issues.



~73
Don
KD8NNU
2014 3905CC Top Gun :-)
-.- -.. ---.. -. -. ..-
-Original Message- 
From: John K9UWA 
Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2016 6:03 PM 
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net 
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] RFI and Direct tv or Dish network 



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Re: [Elecraft] RFI and Direct tv or Dish network

[W5RDW]

In the '90s, had DirecTV for over 10 years with no RFI problems running full
power. Changed over to Verizon Fios, etc. Now after 10 years of Verizon (now
Frontier) and ever increasing monthly bills, getting ready to go back to
DirecTV! 



-
Roger W5RDW
--
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Re: [Elecraft] RFI and Direct tv or Dish network

[John K9UWA]

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Re: [Elecraft] RFI and Direct tv or Dish network

[Rick McGaver]

I have DISH, it sucks but never a problem with RFI.  I run QRO Power, a couple 
of my friends have DISH and Direct with Zero RFI issues.
NK  9G

Sent from my iPad

> On May 17, 2016, at 3:38 PM, Jim - N4ST <hamsh...@n4st.com> wrote:
> 
> Never had a problem with HF or 6M ops interfering with DirecTV.
> Can't say I have noticed the DirecTV interfering with ham ops.
> 
> When I first got DirecTV we had a problem when doing Pay Per View movies.
> We often lost the first few minutes of the movie.
> Finally figured out that when the kids would do popcorn in the microwave it
> caused the DirecTV to drop signal.
> Also noticed that we would lose WiFi connections when the microwave was
> operational.
> We got rid of that microwave.
> _ 
> 73,
> Jim - N4ST
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of w9hak
> Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2016 16:15
> To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
> Subject: [Elecraft] RFI and Direct tv or Dish network
> 
> I am contemplating dropping TWC and going to a satellite system. Any advise
> on rfi would be appreciated.
> 
> Smith Bradford
> W9HAK
> 
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] RFI and Direct tv or Dish network

[Nate Bargmann]

I've had DirecTV in four different homes with two different receivers
for almost 20 years and never a bit of RFI has affected the receivers.
I have gotten into the stereo amplifier on occasion but that is another
matter entirely.

73, Nate, N0NB

-- 

"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this is true."

Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us
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Re: [Elecraft] RFI and Direct tv or Dish network

[Jim - N4ST]

Never had a problem with HF or 6M ops interfering with DirecTV.
Can't say I have noticed the DirecTV interfering with ham ops.

When I first got DirecTV we had a problem when doing Pay Per View movies.
We often lost the first few minutes of the movie.
Finally figured out that when the kids would do popcorn in the microwave it
caused the DirecTV to drop signal.
Also noticed that we would lose WiFi connections when the microwave was
operational.
We got rid of that microwave.
_ 
73,
Jim - N4ST

-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of w9hak
Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2016 16:15
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: [Elecraft] RFI and Direct tv or Dish network

I am contemplating dropping TWC and going to a satellite system. Any advise
on rfi would be appreciated.

Smith Bradford
W9HAK


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Re: [Elecraft] RFI and Direct tv or Dish network

[David Bunte]

Smith -

I switched from Comcast to Direct TV last November.  I noticed NO RFI from
the system, and NO interference to the TV reception.  I was on at all
hours, running 500 watts to a vertical.

Dave - K9FN
On May 17, 2016 4:16 PM, "w9hak"  wrote:

I am contemplating dropping TWC and going to a satellite system. Any advise
on rfi would be appreciated.

Smith Bradford
W9HAK

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Re: [Elecraft] RFI and Direct tv or Dish network

[David Ahrendts]

Smith, I have DISH and the roof sat receiver sits literally 15-feet from the 
SteppIR DB-11. No evidence of RFI in sat reception. Even I was amazed. Doesn’t 
solve DSS/cable bundling, but that’s another discussion with my OTT hat on. 
Apple TV streaming with TWC as ISP, no RFI. But with the TWC cable modem into 
gigabit router I must take great care to use ample ferrites and even shielded 
CAT 6 cable. But I digress.

David A., KK6DA, Los Angeles 

> On May 17, 2016, at 1:15 PM, w9hak  wrote:
> 
> I am contemplating dropping TWC and going to a satellite system. Any advise 
> on rfi would be appreciated.
> 
> Smith Bradford
> W9HAK
> 
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David Ahrendts   davidahren...@me.com   




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[Elecraft] RFI and Direct tv or Dish network

[w9hak]

I am contemplating dropping TWC and going to a satellite system. Any 
advise on rfi would be appreciated.


Smith Bradford
W9HAK

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