Re: [Elecraft] OT: Changes at WWV, WWVB

2014-11-29 Thread John Marvin
There's some wrong information being propagated here. Somehow the 
failure of frequency comparators and/or frequency standards that were 
based on doing a PLL with the CARRIER of the WWVB signal is being 
extrapolated to the failure of all Radio Controlled Clocks which do not 
track the carrier but instead read the time code that is imposed on that 
carrier. This is completely wrong.


The new Phase Modulation signal is imposed on top of the legacy PWM 
signal that has been broadcast pretty much since the beginning. Radio 
Controlled Clocks that just read the PWM encoding should not be affected 
by the phase changes of the PM signal, and will still work as before. 
The reason that some clocks may only get a lock at night is purely an 
issue of propagation, and will almost certainly be true for clocks 
located in the eastern part of the US.  In fact, that is the primary 
reason for adding the PM signal, since it can be decoded at lower signal 
strengths than the PWM signal can be decoded.


However, devices like the HP-117 and Spectracom 8170 performed a PLL on 
the carrier of the signal, since the carrier frequency itself is very 
accurate. These are broken by the addition of the PM signal, since it is 
flipping the phase of the signal by 180 degrees periodically. None of 
the cheap consumer Atomic Clocks do this (phase lock the carrier). 
People have developed external circuits that reclock the WWVB signal 
and allow these type of devices to continue to work.


Also, WWVB did shut off the PM part of the signal for a few hours every 
night during a transition period that ended in May 2013. That is no 
longer happening, but again this only affects phase locking receivers. 
Specifically LaCrosse states clearly on their website that their clocks 
are not affected by the addition of the PM signal.


Finally, I don't think there any commercially available clocks, at least 
at the consumer level, that support the new PM signal at this time. The 
decoder is patented, and I believe chips that support it are either 
still in development or only recently released. I'll try to do some more 
research regarding this.


Regards,

John
AC0ZG

On 11/28/2014 1:18 PM, Ken G Kopp wrote:

I have a long-time close friend who's retired from
the NBS in Boulder and was the project engineer
on the NBS #7 cesium standard.  After the recent
reflector postings about  WWV / WWVB I thought
I would get first-hand recent information from him.

The GPS satellites all carry on-board cesium
standards that are synchronized with NTIS, and
because of changes (below) to WWVB, cell phones
remain the most accurate source of time for most of us.

All the HF transmitters at Ft. Collins are the same TMC
units that were put in service when the facility was built.
The 2.5 and 20 MHz transmitters run at lower power due
to propagation considerations.

The time and other station-related voice info is sourced
on site in Ft. Collins, and the various propagation and
weather info comes from various dial in land-line
sources. Hence the widely varying quality of these
announcements.  I forgot to ask about the individual
who made the voice recordings ...

Here's the most important info  as of about a year
ago the modulation scheme on WWVB (60 kHz) was
changed (phase reversal each minute) and this has
rendered most of the end-user equipment inoperative.
Most (all ?) tracking receivers like the HP-117's are
now useless without extensive modification.

Most of the atomic clocks now in use -do not- synch
to the current modulation scheme on the 60 kHz signal.
This will explain the differences in displayed time on
supposedly identical clocks and how some appear to
not be getting sufficient enough signal to synchronize.

He offered no comment on how to locate consumer
clocks that -do- respond to the new modulation scheme.

The 60 kHz transmitter is indeed an ex-LORAN C unit,
and because of the higher power of the new transmitter
the antenna system was rebuilt using material from the
LORAN C site.

The 20 kHz transmitter was home made by NBS staff
at the old Beltsville, MD facility and moved to Ft. Collins.
There is no longer an antenna for this transmitter and it
will not return to the air.  Trivia:  The antenna was of
such high-Q that a near-by thunderstorm system would
often detune the system and cause the overload protection
to trip the transmitter off.

He suggests that a visit to the NBS website would be
informative.

73

Ken Kopp - K0PP
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Re: [Elecraft] OT: Changes at WWV, WWVB

2014-11-29 Thread David Anderson
There seems to be a lot of misinformation and misunderstanding about how 
consumer WWVB consumer clocks and watches sync and what the changes to the 
format at WWVB mean to them.

The following which give the details from the horse's mouth

http://www.nist.gov/pml/div688/wwvb-030513.cfm


http://www.nist.gov/pml/div688/grp40/wwvb.cfm


Consumer clocks and watches that sync to WWVB old and new generally are not 
affected by the changes to the modulation scheme. The changes do affect 
frequency standard products that phase locked to the carrier, and some specific 
clocks that used synchronous AM detection, not your Radio Shack atomic desk 
clock.

The reason WWVB clocks check around midnight is because the reception is 
generally much better at night and with fewer interference sources switched on 
there is a better signal to noise available at the receiver. 

I would venture to say that most clocks that have stopped working as well as 
they did in the past would be because of an increase in interference levels due 
to our modern digital lifestyles and poor enforcement of EMC standards, not the 
change of the WWVB modulation to add PSK which is backwards compatible to the 
old scheme.


73

David Anderson GM4JJJ 

 On 29 Nov 2014, at 02:16, david Moes dm...@nexicom.net wrote:
 
 I recieved a new la Crosse clock about two months ago  In the instructions it 
 stated that it would only sync a a specific time at night.And now I know 
 why.
 
 David Moes
 President: Peterborough Amateur Radio Club.
 dm...@nexicom.net
 VE3DVY,  VE3SD
 
 On 11/28/2014 18:40, Hisashi T Fujinaka wrote:
 On Fri, 28 Nov 2014, Ken G Kopp wrote:
 
 ...
 
 Here's the most important info  as of about a year
 ago the modulation scheme on WWVB (60 kHz) was
 changed (phase reversal each minute) and this has
 rendered most of the end-user equipment inoperative.
 Most (all ?) tracking receivers like the HP-117's are
 now useless without extensive modification.
 
 Most of the atomic clocks now in use -do not- synch
 to the current modulation scheme on the 60 kHz signal.
 This will explain the differences in displayed time on
 supposedly identical clocks and how some appear to
 not be getting sufficient enough signal to synchronize.
 
 I heard from my time-nerd friends that the modulation scheme changes for
 a short period at night to allow a chance for older equipment to sync
 up. I don't know that for sure.
 
 Technology Review said there are millions of pieces of equipment that
 use the older scheme.
 
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Re: [Elecraft] OT: Changes at WWV, WWVB

2014-11-29 Thread David Anderson
John, Just read your excellent reply after I had pressed the button to send 
mine which covered the same points, though much less eloquently, many thanks.

73

David Anderson GM4JJJ 

 On 29 Nov 2014, at 08:39, John Marvin jm...@themarvins.org wrote:
 
 There's some wrong information being propagated here. Somehow the failure of 
 frequency comparators and/or frequency standards that were based on doing a 
 PLL with the CARRIER of the WWVB signal is being extrapolated to the failure 
 of all Radio Controlled Clocks which do not track the carrier but instead 
 read the time code that is imposed on that carrier. This is completely wrong.
 
 The new Phase Modulation signal is imposed on top of the legacy PWM signal 
 that has been broadcast pretty much since the beginning. Radio Controlled 
 Clocks that just read the PWM encoding should not be affected by the phase 
 changes of the PM signal, and will still work as before. The reason that some 
 clocks may only get a lock at night is purely an issue of propagation, and 
 will almost certainly be true for clocks located in the eastern part of the 
 US.  In fact, that is the primary reason for adding the PM signal, since it 
 can be decoded at lower signal strengths than the PWM signal can be decoded.
 
 However, devices like the HP-117 and Spectracom 8170 performed a PLL on the 
 carrier of the signal, since the carrier frequency itself is very accurate. 
 These are broken by the addition of the PM signal, since it is flipping the 
 phase of the signal by 180 degrees periodically. None of the cheap consumer 
 Atomic Clocks do this (phase lock the carrier). People have developed 
 external circuits that reclock the WWVB signal and allow these type of 
 devices to continue to work.
 
 Also, WWVB did shut off the PM part of the signal for a few hours every night 
 during a transition period that ended in May 2013. That is no longer 
 happening, but again this only affects phase locking receivers. Specifically 
 LaCrosse states clearly on their website that their clocks are not affected 
 by the addition of the PM signal.
 
 Finally, I don't think there any commercially available clocks, at least at 
 the consumer level, that support the new PM signal at this time. The decoder 
 is patented, and I believe chips that support it are either still in 
 development or only recently released. I'll try to do some more research 
 regarding this.
 
 Regards,
 
 John
 AC0ZG
 
 On 11/28/2014 1:18 PM, Ken G Kopp wrote:
 I have a long-time close friend who's retired from
 the NBS in Boulder and was the project engineer
 on the NBS #7 cesium standard.  After the recent
 reflector postings about  WWV / WWVB I thought
 I would get first-hand recent information from him.
 
 The GPS satellites all carry on-board cesium
 standards that are synchronized with NTIS, and
 because of changes (below) to WWVB, cell phones
 remain the most accurate source of time for most of us.
 
 All the HF transmitters at Ft. Collins are the same TMC
 units that were put in service when the facility was built.
 The 2.5 and 20 MHz transmitters run at lower power due
 to propagation considerations.
 
 The time and other station-related voice info is sourced
 on site in Ft. Collins, and the various propagation and
 weather info comes from various dial in land-line
 sources. Hence the widely varying quality of these
 announcements.  I forgot to ask about the individual
 who made the voice recordings ...
 
 Here's the most important info  as of about a year
 ago the modulation scheme on WWVB (60 kHz) was
 changed (phase reversal each minute) and this has
 rendered most of the end-user equipment inoperative.
 Most (all ?) tracking receivers like the HP-117's are
 now useless without extensive modification.
 
 Most of the atomic clocks now in use -do not- synch
 to the current modulation scheme on the 60 kHz signal.
 This will explain the differences in displayed time on
 supposedly identical clocks and how some appear to
 not be getting sufficient enough signal to synchronize.
 
 He offered no comment on how to locate consumer
 clocks that -do- respond to the new modulation scheme.
 
 The 60 kHz transmitter is indeed an ex-LORAN C unit,
 and because of the higher power of the new transmitter
 the antenna system was rebuilt using material from the
 LORAN C site.
 
 The 20 kHz transmitter was home made by NBS staff
 at the old Beltsville, MD facility and moved to Ft. Collins.
 There is no longer an antenna for this transmitter and it
 will not return to the air.  Trivia:  The antenna was of
 such high-Q that a near-by thunderstorm system would
 often detune the system and cause the overload protection
 to trip the transmitter off.
 
 He suggests that a visit to the NBS website would be
 informative.
 
 73
 
 Ken Kopp - K0PP
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Re: [Elecraft] OT: Changes at WWV, WWVB

2014-11-29 Thread Nate Bargmann
I reset my shack clock to local time, CST, yesterday evening and this
morning it is correct to the second (it was running about 45 seconds
fast).  Now I'll have to see if it stays in sync over the long term.

73, Nate N0NB

-- 

The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this is true.

Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us
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Re: [Elecraft] OT: Changes at WWV, WWVB

2014-11-29 Thread Phil Wheeler


On 11/29/14 12:57 AM, David Anderson wrote:

I would venture to say that most clocks that have stopped working as well as 
they did in the past would be because of an increase in interference levels due 
to our modern digital lifestyles and poor enforcement of EMC standards, not the 
change of the WWVB modulation to add PSK which is backwards compatible to the 
old scheme.
You sure have that right re interference due to 
modern digital lifestyle, David. My 
always-reliable Casio Pathfinder watch updated 
great until I added a Time-Warner converter in my 
bedroom a couple of months ago. It updates fine if 
the converter is unplugged, not at all if it is 
plugged in. OTOH -- other electronics nearby, 
including a Roku and old 9 CRT TV, don't impede 
the update.  So mostly the TW converter is 
unplugged and I use the Roku for watching TV in 
bed at night.


73, Phil W7OX
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Re: [Elecraft] OT: Changes at WWV, WWVB

2014-11-29 Thread Joe Subich, W4TV


Unfortunately the consumer clocks seem to attempt to sync between
0200 and 0400 *local* (display) time regardless of the time zone.
I have a couple that would display UTC but when I set them to do
so they never sync because their window does not seem to include
the optimum propagation window.

73,

  ... Joe, W4TV


On 2014-11-29 8:02 AM, Nate Bargmann wrote:

I reset my shack clock to local time, CST, yesterday evening and this
morning it is correct to the second (it was running about 45 seconds
fast).  Now I'll have to see if it stays in sync over the long term.

73, Nate N0NB


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Re: [Elecraft] OT: Changes at WWV, WWVB

2014-11-29 Thread dave


Another thing to watch out for on these 'atomic clocks' appears to be 
nearby lightning strikes. I have 3 of the clocks here. Two are not 
affected but the other one, after any fairly nearby thunderstorm, 
requires that I remove the battery, let it completely discharge all 
energy held within (this takes a few minutes as they are very low 
power drain and apparently have decent sized caps inside) and restart it.


It will then lock up and stay that way until the next thunderstorm 
rolls through.


But once a storm rolls through, it will unlock and refuse to re-lock 
not matter how many times I press the 'resync' button. Something 
appears to get hosed up in its OS and it declines every attempt to 
resync it.


I can tell when it has lost sync by checking the little 'sync' icon. 
And, of course, the time is off . . .


73 de dave
ab9ca/4



On 11/29/14 11:30 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:


Unfortunately the consumer clocks seem to attempt to sync between
0200 and 0400 *local* (display) time regardless of the time zone.
I have a couple that would display UTC but when I set them to do
so they never sync because their window does not seem to include
the optimum propagation window.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


On 2014-11-29 8:02 AM, Nate Bargmann wrote:

I reset my shack clock to local time, CST, yesterday evening and this
morning it is correct to the second (it was running about 45 seconds
fast).  Now I'll have to see if it stays in sync over the long term.

73, Nate N0NB


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Re: [Elecraft] OT: Changes at WWV, WWVB

2014-11-29 Thread Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT
The battery powered Oregon Scientific clock I tried to sync for about 10 
minutes at a half-dozen different times each day.  The main reason 
appeared to be saving battery power by turning the receiver off.


Mine had an addendum that said they added a check at noon.  If the clock 
was many hours off, the noon check would happen at night and set the 
clock.


73 -- Lynn

On 11/29/2014 9:30 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:


Unfortunately the consumer clocks seem to attempt to sync between
0200 and 0400 *local* (display) time regardless of the time zone.
I have a couple that would display UTC but when I set them to do
so they never sync because their window does not seem to include
the optimum propagation window.

73,

  ... Joe, W4TV

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Re: [Elecraft] OT: Changes at WWV, WWVB

2014-11-28 Thread Tom Blahovici
Hi interesting. It appears all Citizen atomic watches purchased recently use 
the newer protocol. Mine syncs every night even in a drawer and maintains the 
time to 1/4 of a second a day. 
How in the world does such a small antenna work at 60 kHz?

On Nov 28, 2014 3:18 PM, Ken G Kopp kengk...@gmail.com wrote:

 I have a long-time close friend who's retired from 
 the NBS in Boulder and was the project engineer 
 on the NBS #7 cesium standard.  After the recent 
 reflector postings about  WWV / WWVB I thought 
 I would get first-hand recent information from him. 

 The GPS satellites all carry on-board cesium 
 standards that are synchronized with NTIS, and 
 because of changes (below) to WWVB, cell phones 
 remain the most accurate source of time for most of us. 

 All the HF transmitters at Ft. Collins are the same TMC 
 units that were put in service when the facility was built. 
 The 2.5 and 20 MHz transmitters run at lower power due 
 to propagation considerations. 

 The time and other station-related voice info is sourced 
 on site in Ft. Collins, and the various propagation and 
 weather info comes from various dial in land-line 
 sources. Hence the widely varying quality of these 
 announcements.  I forgot to ask about the individual 
 who made the voice recordings ... 

 Here's the most important info  as of about a year 
 ago the modulation scheme on WWVB (60 kHz) was 
 changed (phase reversal each minute) and this has 
 rendered most of the end-user equipment inoperative. 
 Most (all ?) tracking receivers like the HP-117's are 
 now useless without extensive modification. 

 Most of the atomic clocks now in use -do not- synch 
 to the current modulation scheme on the 60 kHz signal. 
 This will explain the differences in displayed time on 
 supposedly identical clocks and how some appear to 
 not be getting sufficient enough signal to synchronize. 

 He offered no comment on how to locate consumer 
 clocks that -do- respond to the new modulation scheme. 

 The 60 kHz transmitter is indeed an ex-LORAN C unit, 
 and because of the higher power of the new transmitter 
 the antenna system was rebuilt using material from the 
 LORAN C site. 

 The 20 kHz transmitter was home made by NBS staff 
 at the old Beltsville, MD facility and moved to Ft. Collins. 
 There is no longer an antenna for this transmitter and it 
 will not return to the air.  Trivia:  The antenna was of 
 such high-Q that a near-by thunderstorm system would 
 often detune the system and cause the overload protection 
 to trip the transmitter off. 

 He suggests that a visit to the NBS website would be 
 informative. 

 73 

 Ken Kopp - K0PP 
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Re: [Elecraft] OT: Changes at WWV, WWVB

2014-11-28 Thread Ken G Kopp
Hi Roger!

Yes, you're not the first to spot my error about ND, and my friend is
trying to confirm where the WWVB
LORAN C transmitter came from

I used to do hamfest talks on antennas for 160M and used several slides of
the George,  WA station.  Last time I was there they had a Bobcat on the
roof clearing ash from the Mt. St. Helens eruption.

Ken - K0PP
On Nov 28, 2014 1:41 PM, Roger D Johnson n...@roadrunner.com wrote:

 Interesting! As a former LORAN C guy I'm happy that at least one
 transmitter
 found a new home. You mentioned earlier that the transmitter came from the
 station in ND. However, the station in Lemoure, ND was an Omega station,
 not LORAN C.

 73, Roger CWO4, USCG (ret)


 On 11/28/2014 3:18 PM, Ken G Kopp wrote:

 I have a long-time close friend who's retired from
 the NBS in Boulder and was the project engineer
 on the NBS #7 cesium standard.  After the recent
 reflector postings about  WWV / WWVB I thought
 I would get first-hand recent information from him.

 The GPS satellites all carry on-board cesium
 standards that are synchronized with NTIS, and
 because of changes (below) to WWVB, cell phones
 remain the most accurate source of time for most of us.

 All the HF transmitters at Ft. Collins are the same TMC
 units that were put in service when the facility was built.
 The 2.5 and 20 MHz transmitters run at lower power due
 to propagation considerations.

 The time and other station-related voice info is sourced
 on site in Ft. Collins, and the various propagation and
 weather info comes from various dial in land-line
 sources. Hence the widely varying quality of these
 announcements.  I forgot to ask about the individual
 who made the voice recordings ...

 Here's the most important info  as of about a year
 ago the modulation scheme on WWVB (60 kHz) was
 changed (phase reversal each minute) and this has
 rendered most of the end-user equipment inoperative.
 Most (all ?) tracking receivers like the HP-117's are
 now useless without extensive modification.

 Most of the atomic clocks now in use -do not- synch
 to the current modulation scheme on the 60 kHz signal.
 This will explain the differences in displayed time on
 supposedly identical clocks and how some appear to
 not be getting sufficient enough signal to synchronize.

 He offered no comment on how to locate consumer
 clocks that -do- respond to the new modulation scheme.

 The 60 kHz transmitter is indeed an ex-LORAN C unit,
 and because of the higher power of the new transmitter
 the antenna system was rebuilt using material from the
 LORAN C site.

 The 20 kHz transmitter was home made by NBS staff
 at the old Beltsville, MD facility and moved to Ft. Collins.
 There is no longer an antenna for this transmitter and it
 will not return to the air.  Trivia:  The antenna was of
 such high-Q that a near-by thunderstorm system would
 often detune the system and cause the overload protection
 to trip the transmitter off.

 He suggests that a visit to the NBS website would be
 informative.

 73

 Ken Kopp - K0PP
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Re: [Elecraft] OT: Changes at WWV, WWVB

2014-11-28 Thread dave


A minor point . . . but I believe that the GPS satellites carry 
rubidium standards, not cesium. IIRC, the rubidium standards are much 
smaller and lighter and much more suited to satellite use.


At one time I used a cesium standard to troubleshoot a timing issue 
when clocking the phone network. I think it, in its shipping 
container, weighed about 75#. The container probably weighed less than 
15#. A cesium standard is fairly heavy. We had to lug it up to the 3rd 
floor of one central office.


But the rubidium standards in the satellites are synced to the earth 
mounted cesium standards each day. And rubidium standards actually 
have better short term stability than do cesium standards. At least 
that is what I was taught in the various timing classes I attended.


73 de dave
ab9ca/4



On 11/28/14 2:18 PM, Ken G Kopp wrote:

I have a long-time close friend who's retired from
the NBS in Boulder and was the project engineer
on the NBS #7 cesium standard.  After the recent
reflector postings about  WWV / WWVB I thought
I would get first-hand recent information from him.

The GPS satellites all carry on-board cesium
standards that are synchronized with NTIS, and
because of changes (below) to WWVB, cell phones
remain the most accurate source of time for most of us.

All the HF transmitters at Ft. Collins are the same TMC
units that were put in service when the facility was built.
The 2.5 and 20 MHz transmitters run at lower power due
to propagation considerations.

The time and other station-related voice info is sourced
on site in Ft. Collins, and the various propagation and
weather info comes from various dial in land-line
sources. Hence the widely varying quality of these
announcements.  I forgot to ask about the individual
who made the voice recordings ...

Here's the most important info  as of about a year
ago the modulation scheme on WWVB (60 kHz) was
changed (phase reversal each minute) and this has
rendered most of the end-user equipment inoperative.
Most (all ?) tracking receivers like the HP-117's are
now useless without extensive modification.

Most of the atomic clocks now in use -do not- synch
to the current modulation scheme on the 60 kHz signal.
This will explain the differences in displayed time on
supposedly identical clocks and how some appear to
not be getting sufficient enough signal to synchronize.

He offered no comment on how to locate consumer
clocks that -do- respond to the new modulation scheme.

The 60 kHz transmitter is indeed an ex-LORAN C unit,
and because of the higher power of the new transmitter
the antenna system was rebuilt using material from the
LORAN C site.

The 20 kHz transmitter was home made by NBS staff
at the old Beltsville, MD facility and moved to Ft. Collins.
There is no longer an antenna for this transmitter and it
will not return to the air.  Trivia:  The antenna was of
such high-Q that a near-by thunderstorm system would
often detune the system and cause the overload protection
to trip the transmitter off.

He suggests that a visit to the NBS website would be
informative.

73

Ken Kopp - K0PP
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Re: [Elecraft] OT: Changes at WWV, WWVB

2014-11-28 Thread Phil Kane
On 11/28/2014 1:25 PM, dave wrote:

 At one time I used a cesium standard to troubleshoot a timing issue when
 clocking the phone network. I think it, in its shipping container,
 weighed about 75#. The container probably weighed less than 15#. A
 cesium standard is fairly heavy. We had to lug it up to the 3rd floor of
 one central office.

Fifty years ago I was a (junior) project engineer on the US Air Force's
first computerized digital message switching system.  Each of our
switches used rubidium standards made by National Radio (the same folks
who made the HRO line of receivers).  They took up two full relay racks
each,   Times have changed!

73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
Elecraft K2/100   s/n 5402

From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest
Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon
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Re: [Elecraft] OT: Changes at WWV, WWVB

2014-11-28 Thread Myron WVØH
And it's Lamoure not Lemoure (says the ex-North Dakotan). I actually visited 
that site back when I was attending Science Scool in Wahpeton. Racks and racks 
of mux's.

Myron WVØH
Printed on Recycled Data

 On Nov 28, 2014, at 1:54 PM, Ken G Kopp kengk...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 Hi Roger!
 
 Yes, you're not the first to spot my error about ND, and my friend is
 trying to confirm where the WWVB
 LORAN C transmitter came from
 
 I used to do hamfest talks on antennas for 160M and used several slides of
 the George,  WA station.  Last time I was there they had a Bobcat on the
 roof clearing ash from the Mt. St. Helens eruption.
 
 Ken - K0PP
 On Nov 28, 2014 1:41 PM, Roger D Johnson n...@roadrunner.com wrote:
 
 Interesting! As a former LORAN C guy I'm happy that at least one
 transmitter
 found a new home. You mentioned earlier that the transmitter came from the
 station in ND. However, the station in Lemoure, ND was an Omega station,
 not LORAN C.
 
 73, Roger CWO4, USCG (ret)
 
 
 On 11/28/2014 3:18 PM, Ken G Kopp wrote:
 
 I have a long-time close friend who's retired from
 the NBS in Boulder and was the project engineer
 on the NBS #7 cesium standard.  After the recent
 reflector postings about  WWV / WWVB I thought
 I would get first-hand recent information from him.
 
 The GPS satellites all carry on-board cesium
 standards that are synchronized with NTIS, and
 because of changes (below) to WWVB, cell phones
 remain the most accurate source of time for most of us.
 
 All the HF transmitters at Ft. Collins are the same TMC
 units that were put in service when the facility was built.
 The 2.5 and 20 MHz transmitters run at lower power due
 to propagation considerations.
 
 The time and other station-related voice info is sourced
 on site in Ft. Collins, and the various propagation and
 weather info comes from various dial in land-line
 sources. Hence the widely varying quality of these
 announcements.  I forgot to ask about the individual
 who made the voice recordings ...
 
 Here's the most important info  as of about a year
 ago the modulation scheme on WWVB (60 kHz) was
 changed (phase reversal each minute) and this has
 rendered most of the end-user equipment inoperative.
 Most (all ?) tracking receivers like the HP-117's are
 now useless without extensive modification.
 
 Most of the atomic clocks now in use -do not- synch
 to the current modulation scheme on the 60 kHz signal.
 This will explain the differences in displayed time on
 supposedly identical clocks and how some appear to
 not be getting sufficient enough signal to synchronize.
 
 He offered no comment on how to locate consumer
 clocks that -do- respond to the new modulation scheme.
 
 The 60 kHz transmitter is indeed an ex-LORAN C unit,
 and because of the higher power of the new transmitter
 the antenna system was rebuilt using material from the
 LORAN C site.
 
 The 20 kHz transmitter was home made by NBS staff
 at the old Beltsville, MD facility and moved to Ft. Collins.
 There is no longer an antenna for this transmitter and it
 will not return to the air.  Trivia:  The antenna was of
 such high-Q that a near-by thunderstorm system would
 often detune the system and cause the overload protection
 to trip the transmitter off.
 
 He suggests that a visit to the NBS website would be
 informative.
 
 73
 
 Ken Kopp - K0PP
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Re: [Elecraft] OT: Changes at WWV, WWVB

2014-11-28 Thread Fred Jensen
Interesting thread.  OMEGA was on 10 - 14 or so KHz.  There was a 
LORAN-C station in Gillette WY, maybe WWVB came from there.  I would 
imagine converting a 100 KHz transmitter to 60 KHz is a whole lot easier 
than 10 KHz to 60 KHz.


Near the end of the LORAN-C era, some of the transmitters were replaced 
by Accufix transmitters by MegaPulse Corp.  No oscillator(s) or 
amplifier(s), no tubes, basically harked back to spark ... except they 
used SCR's instead of a spark gap.  They also had a roomful of high-tech 
timing equipment, and produced exact LORAN-C pulses at a megawatt or so. 
 I doubt WWVB is using one of those. :-)


73,

Fred K6DGW
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the 50th Running of the Cal QSO Party 3-4 Oct 2015
- www.cqp.org


On Nov 28, 2014, at 1:54 PM, Ken G Kopp kengk...@gmail.com wrote:

Hi Roger!

Yes, you're not the first to spot my error about ND, and my friend is
trying to confirm where the WWVB
LORAN C transmitter came from


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Re: [Elecraft] OT: Changes at WWV, WWVB

2014-11-28 Thread Hisashi T Fujinaka

On Fri, 28 Nov 2014, Ken G Kopp wrote:

...


Here's the most important info  as of about a year
ago the modulation scheme on WWVB (60 kHz) was
changed (phase reversal each minute) and this has
rendered most of the end-user equipment inoperative.
Most (all ?) tracking receivers like the HP-117's are
now useless without extensive modification.

Most of the atomic clocks now in use -do not- synch
to the current modulation scheme on the 60 kHz signal.
This will explain the differences in displayed time on
supposedly identical clocks and how some appear to
not be getting sufficient enough signal to synchronize.


I heard from my time-nerd friends that the modulation scheme changes for
a short period at night to allow a chance for older equipment to sync
up. I don't know that for sure.

Technology Review said there are millions of pieces of equipment that
use the older scheme.

--
Hisashi T Fujinaka - ht...@twofifty.com
BSEE + BSChem + BAEnglish + MSCS + $2.50 = coffee
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Re: [Elecraft] OT: Changes at WWV, WWVB

2014-11-28 Thread Craig Smith
 I heard from my time-nerd friends that the modulation scheme changes for
 a short period at night to allow a chance for older equipment to sync
 up. I don't know that for sure.
 
 Technology Review said there are millions of pieces of equipment that
 use the older scheme.


This is indeed interesting stuff.   First I've heard of the change.

But I do have several automatically syncing clocks in the house and have 
noticed that he syncing isn't as robust and dependable as it was some years 
ago.   For example, switching from standard to daylight savings time and back 
takes some of them a few days to accomplish, with some of them switching back 
and forth from day to day before finally getting it right.  Don't think that 
signal strength is the problem.

As someone else noted, it sure would be good to know which manufacturers use 
the new standard!


73   Craig   AC0DS



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Re: [Elecraft] OT: Changes at WWV, WWVB

2014-11-28 Thread Nate Bargmann
* On 2014 28 Nov 17:41 -0600, Hisashi T Fujinaka wrote:
 I heard from my time-nerd friends that the modulation scheme changes for
 a short period at night to allow a chance for older equipment to sync
 up. I don't know that for sure.

I have an older LaCrosse LCD clock that is my shack unit and started to
not keep good time around 18 months ago that I noticed at my former QTH.
Two years ago I added an amp and I presumed that I zapped something in
its receiver as when reset it will keep sync for a time and then lose
it.  Right now it is 27 seconds fast and was last set at the beginning
of April.

At work we have a newer LaCrosse LCD clock on the wall and here in the
kitchen I have an analog LaCrosse clock (it was purchased soon after the
shack clock) and both stay in sync.

 Technology Review said there are millions of pieces of equipment that
 use the older scheme.

It's possible that the shack clock is a victim of this change but the
other two were purchased around the same time.  One difference is that
the shack clock is set to GMT and the others are set to local time.  As
I recall the clocks sync around midnight so the shack clock could be
trying to sync five to six hours before the other two.  If WWVB is set
to account for this and runs the old protocol at midnight EST (10 PM
MST) through midnight PST (1 AM MST), then that would make sense to me.
I can try setting the shack clock to CST and see if it stays in sync, I
suppose.

73, Nate, N0NB

-- 

The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this is true.

Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us
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Re: [Elecraft] OT: Changes at WWV, WWVB

2014-11-28 Thread david Moes
I recieved a new la Crosse clock about two months ago  In the 
instructions it stated that it would only sync a a specific time at 
night.And now I know why.


David Moes
President: Peterborough Amateur Radio Club.
dm...@nexicom.net
VE3DVY,  VE3SD

On 11/28/2014 18:40, Hisashi T Fujinaka wrote:

On Fri, 28 Nov 2014, Ken G Kopp wrote:

...


Here's the most important info  as of about a year
ago the modulation scheme on WWVB (60 kHz) was
changed (phase reversal each minute) and this has
rendered most of the end-user equipment inoperative.
Most (all ?) tracking receivers like the HP-117's are
now useless without extensive modification.

Most of the atomic clocks now in use -do not- synch
to the current modulation scheme on the 60 kHz signal.
This will explain the differences in displayed time on
supposedly identical clocks and how some appear to
not be getting sufficient enough signal to synchronize.


I heard from my time-nerd friends that the modulation scheme changes for
a short period at night to allow a chance for older equipment to sync
up. I don't know that for sure.

Technology Review said there are millions of pieces of equipment that
use the older scheme.



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Re: [Elecraft] OT: Changes at WWV, WWVB

2014-11-28 Thread Wes (N7WS)

On 11/28/2014 1:18 PM, Ken G Kopp wrote:

I have a long-time close friend who's retired from
the NBS in Boulder and was the project engineer
on the NBS #7 cesium standard.  After the recent
reflector postings about  WWV / WWVB I thought
I would get first-hand recent information from him.

...

[snip]

A number of years ago my late wife and I were touring the western states and 
went to Ft. Collins.  I've looked at several big antenna sites during my travels 
(NAA, KVLY, VLA, Owens Valley, Guaymas Apollo Station, etc) and thought I'd try 
to see the WWV complex.  So I called them up on the telephone and asked the guy 
who answered whether I could get a tour of the facility.  He was somewhat 
incredulous and told me in no uncertain terms that they didn't give tours.


I said, What a pity, I've visited other fun sites and gotten tours, I'm an 
engineer in the defense biz, a ham, yada yada.


He said, Sorry.  Then after an, Ah shucks from me, he said, Well, I'll tell 
you what, there's a contractor doing some work here and the gate is unlocked.  
Drive in and take a look around, but stay in your car please.


Wes  N7WS
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Re: [Elecraft] OT: Changes at WWV, WWVB

2014-11-28 Thread mcduffie
On Fri, 28 Nov 2014 19:19:31 -0600, Nate Bargmann wrote:

 It's possible that the shack clock is a victim of this change but the
 other two were purchased around the same time.  One difference is that
 the shack clock is set to GMT and the others are set to local time.  As
 I recall the clocks sync around midnight so the shack clock could be
 trying to sync five to six hours before the other two.  If WWVB is set
 to account for this and runs the old protocol at midnight EST (10 PM
 MST) through midnight PST (1 AM MST), then that would make sense to me.
 I can try setting the shack clock to CST and see if it stays in sync, I
 suppose.

I don't know this for a fact, but I would assume that they all run at UTC and
then run a correction, based on your timezone setting, that shifts it the proper
amount for the timezone you set.

Ken - Thanks for that info.  It helps me understand why my shack clock quit
working a long time ago.  I moved it all over the place, including in place of
another one in another part of the house that worked right, and it would never
correct.  It was minutes off when I finally tossed it and bought a couple of new
ones.  They all work fine now.  Because of this, I really doubt that they switch
back once a day to bring the old equipment up to speed and then switch back.  It
never corrected itself in over a year.

Gary - AG0N
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