Re: [Elecraft] OT: Changes at WWV, WWVB
There's some wrong information being propagated here. Somehow the failure of frequency comparators and/or frequency standards that were based on doing a PLL with the CARRIER of the WWVB signal is being extrapolated to the failure of all Radio Controlled Clocks which do not track the carrier but instead read the time code that is imposed on that carrier. This is completely wrong. The new Phase Modulation signal is imposed on top of the legacy PWM signal that has been broadcast pretty much since the beginning. Radio Controlled Clocks that just read the PWM encoding should not be affected by the phase changes of the PM signal, and will still work as before. The reason that some clocks may only get a lock at night is purely an issue of propagation, and will almost certainly be true for clocks located in the eastern part of the US. In fact, that is the primary reason for adding the PM signal, since it can be decoded at lower signal strengths than the PWM signal can be decoded. However, devices like the HP-117 and Spectracom 8170 performed a PLL on the carrier of the signal, since the carrier frequency itself is very accurate. These are broken by the addition of the PM signal, since it is flipping the phase of the signal by 180 degrees periodically. None of the cheap consumer Atomic Clocks do this (phase lock the carrier). People have developed external circuits that reclock the WWVB signal and allow these type of devices to continue to work. Also, WWVB did shut off the PM part of the signal for a few hours every night during a transition period that ended in May 2013. That is no longer happening, but again this only affects phase locking receivers. Specifically LaCrosse states clearly on their website that their clocks are not affected by the addition of the PM signal. Finally, I don't think there any commercially available clocks, at least at the consumer level, that support the new PM signal at this time. The decoder is patented, and I believe chips that support it are either still in development or only recently released. I'll try to do some more research regarding this. Regards, John AC0ZG On 11/28/2014 1:18 PM, Ken G Kopp wrote: I have a long-time close friend who's retired from the NBS in Boulder and was the project engineer on the NBS #7 cesium standard. After the recent reflector postings about WWV / WWVB I thought I would get first-hand recent information from him. The GPS satellites all carry on-board cesium standards that are synchronized with NTIS, and because of changes (below) to WWVB, cell phones remain the most accurate source of time for most of us. All the HF transmitters at Ft. Collins are the same TMC units that were put in service when the facility was built. The 2.5 and 20 MHz transmitters run at lower power due to propagation considerations. The time and other station-related voice info is sourced on site in Ft. Collins, and the various propagation and weather info comes from various dial in land-line sources. Hence the widely varying quality of these announcements. I forgot to ask about the individual who made the voice recordings ... Here's the most important info as of about a year ago the modulation scheme on WWVB (60 kHz) was changed (phase reversal each minute) and this has rendered most of the end-user equipment inoperative. Most (all ?) tracking receivers like the HP-117's are now useless without extensive modification. Most of the atomic clocks now in use -do not- synch to the current modulation scheme on the 60 kHz signal. This will explain the differences in displayed time on supposedly identical clocks and how some appear to not be getting sufficient enough signal to synchronize. He offered no comment on how to locate consumer clocks that -do- respond to the new modulation scheme. The 60 kHz transmitter is indeed an ex-LORAN C unit, and because of the higher power of the new transmitter the antenna system was rebuilt using material from the LORAN C site. The 20 kHz transmitter was home made by NBS staff at the old Beltsville, MD facility and moved to Ft. Collins. There is no longer an antenna for this transmitter and it will not return to the air. Trivia: The antenna was of such high-Q that a near-by thunderstorm system would often detune the system and cause the overload protection to trip the transmitter off. He suggests that a visit to the NBS website would be informative. 73 Ken Kopp - K0PP __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to jm...@themarvins.org __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help:
Re: [Elecraft] OT: Changes at WWV, WWVB
There seems to be a lot of misinformation and misunderstanding about how consumer WWVB consumer clocks and watches sync and what the changes to the format at WWVB mean to them. The following which give the details from the horse's mouth http://www.nist.gov/pml/div688/wwvb-030513.cfm http://www.nist.gov/pml/div688/grp40/wwvb.cfm Consumer clocks and watches that sync to WWVB old and new generally are not affected by the changes to the modulation scheme. The changes do affect frequency standard products that phase locked to the carrier, and some specific clocks that used synchronous AM detection, not your Radio Shack atomic desk clock. The reason WWVB clocks check around midnight is because the reception is generally much better at night and with fewer interference sources switched on there is a better signal to noise available at the receiver. I would venture to say that most clocks that have stopped working as well as they did in the past would be because of an increase in interference levels due to our modern digital lifestyles and poor enforcement of EMC standards, not the change of the WWVB modulation to add PSK which is backwards compatible to the old scheme. 73 David Anderson GM4JJJ On 29 Nov 2014, at 02:16, david Moes dm...@nexicom.net wrote: I recieved a new la Crosse clock about two months ago In the instructions it stated that it would only sync a a specific time at night.And now I know why. David Moes President: Peterborough Amateur Radio Club. dm...@nexicom.net VE3DVY, VE3SD On 11/28/2014 18:40, Hisashi T Fujinaka wrote: On Fri, 28 Nov 2014, Ken G Kopp wrote: ... Here's the most important info as of about a year ago the modulation scheme on WWVB (60 kHz) was changed (phase reversal each minute) and this has rendered most of the end-user equipment inoperative. Most (all ?) tracking receivers like the HP-117's are now useless without extensive modification. Most of the atomic clocks now in use -do not- synch to the current modulation scheme on the 60 kHz signal. This will explain the differences in displayed time on supposedly identical clocks and how some appear to not be getting sufficient enough signal to synchronize. I heard from my time-nerd friends that the modulation scheme changes for a short period at night to allow a chance for older equipment to sync up. I don't know that for sure. Technology Review said there are millions of pieces of equipment that use the older scheme. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to gm4...@yahoo.co.uk __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] OT: Changes at WWV, WWVB
John, Just read your excellent reply after I had pressed the button to send mine which covered the same points, though much less eloquently, many thanks. 73 David Anderson GM4JJJ On 29 Nov 2014, at 08:39, John Marvin jm...@themarvins.org wrote: There's some wrong information being propagated here. Somehow the failure of frequency comparators and/or frequency standards that were based on doing a PLL with the CARRIER of the WWVB signal is being extrapolated to the failure of all Radio Controlled Clocks which do not track the carrier but instead read the time code that is imposed on that carrier. This is completely wrong. The new Phase Modulation signal is imposed on top of the legacy PWM signal that has been broadcast pretty much since the beginning. Radio Controlled Clocks that just read the PWM encoding should not be affected by the phase changes of the PM signal, and will still work as before. The reason that some clocks may only get a lock at night is purely an issue of propagation, and will almost certainly be true for clocks located in the eastern part of the US. In fact, that is the primary reason for adding the PM signal, since it can be decoded at lower signal strengths than the PWM signal can be decoded. However, devices like the HP-117 and Spectracom 8170 performed a PLL on the carrier of the signal, since the carrier frequency itself is very accurate. These are broken by the addition of the PM signal, since it is flipping the phase of the signal by 180 degrees periodically. None of the cheap consumer Atomic Clocks do this (phase lock the carrier). People have developed external circuits that reclock the WWVB signal and allow these type of devices to continue to work. Also, WWVB did shut off the PM part of the signal for a few hours every night during a transition period that ended in May 2013. That is no longer happening, but again this only affects phase locking receivers. Specifically LaCrosse states clearly on their website that their clocks are not affected by the addition of the PM signal. Finally, I don't think there any commercially available clocks, at least at the consumer level, that support the new PM signal at this time. The decoder is patented, and I believe chips that support it are either still in development or only recently released. I'll try to do some more research regarding this. Regards, John AC0ZG On 11/28/2014 1:18 PM, Ken G Kopp wrote: I have a long-time close friend who's retired from the NBS in Boulder and was the project engineer on the NBS #7 cesium standard. After the recent reflector postings about WWV / WWVB I thought I would get first-hand recent information from him. The GPS satellites all carry on-board cesium standards that are synchronized with NTIS, and because of changes (below) to WWVB, cell phones remain the most accurate source of time for most of us. All the HF transmitters at Ft. Collins are the same TMC units that were put in service when the facility was built. The 2.5 and 20 MHz transmitters run at lower power due to propagation considerations. The time and other station-related voice info is sourced on site in Ft. Collins, and the various propagation and weather info comes from various dial in land-line sources. Hence the widely varying quality of these announcements. I forgot to ask about the individual who made the voice recordings ... Here's the most important info as of about a year ago the modulation scheme on WWVB (60 kHz) was changed (phase reversal each minute) and this has rendered most of the end-user equipment inoperative. Most (all ?) tracking receivers like the HP-117's are now useless without extensive modification. Most of the atomic clocks now in use -do not- synch to the current modulation scheme on the 60 kHz signal. This will explain the differences in displayed time on supposedly identical clocks and how some appear to not be getting sufficient enough signal to synchronize. He offered no comment on how to locate consumer clocks that -do- respond to the new modulation scheme. The 60 kHz transmitter is indeed an ex-LORAN C unit, and because of the higher power of the new transmitter the antenna system was rebuilt using material from the LORAN C site. The 20 kHz transmitter was home made by NBS staff at the old Beltsville, MD facility and moved to Ft. Collins. There is no longer an antenna for this transmitter and it will not return to the air. Trivia: The antenna was of such high-Q that a near-by thunderstorm system would often detune the system and cause the overload protection to trip the transmitter off. He suggests that a visit to the NBS website would be informative. 73 Ken Kopp - K0PP __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Re: [Elecraft] OT: Changes at WWV, WWVB
I reset my shack clock to local time, CST, yesterday evening and this morning it is correct to the second (it was running about 45 seconds fast). Now I'll have to see if it stays in sync over the long term. 73, Nate N0NB -- The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true. Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] OT: Changes at WWV, WWVB
On 11/29/14 12:57 AM, David Anderson wrote: I would venture to say that most clocks that have stopped working as well as they did in the past would be because of an increase in interference levels due to our modern digital lifestyles and poor enforcement of EMC standards, not the change of the WWVB modulation to add PSK which is backwards compatible to the old scheme. You sure have that right re interference due to modern digital lifestyle, David. My always-reliable Casio Pathfinder watch updated great until I added a Time-Warner converter in my bedroom a couple of months ago. It updates fine if the converter is unplugged, not at all if it is plugged in. OTOH -- other electronics nearby, including a Roku and old 9 CRT TV, don't impede the update. So mostly the TW converter is unplugged and I use the Roku for watching TV in bed at night. 73, Phil W7OX __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] OT: Changes at WWV, WWVB
Unfortunately the consumer clocks seem to attempt to sync between 0200 and 0400 *local* (display) time regardless of the time zone. I have a couple that would display UTC but when I set them to do so they never sync because their window does not seem to include the optimum propagation window. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 2014-11-29 8:02 AM, Nate Bargmann wrote: I reset my shack clock to local time, CST, yesterday evening and this morning it is correct to the second (it was running about 45 seconds fast). Now I'll have to see if it stays in sync over the long term. 73, Nate N0NB __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] OT: Changes at WWV, WWVB
Another thing to watch out for on these 'atomic clocks' appears to be nearby lightning strikes. I have 3 of the clocks here. Two are not affected but the other one, after any fairly nearby thunderstorm, requires that I remove the battery, let it completely discharge all energy held within (this takes a few minutes as they are very low power drain and apparently have decent sized caps inside) and restart it. It will then lock up and stay that way until the next thunderstorm rolls through. But once a storm rolls through, it will unlock and refuse to re-lock not matter how many times I press the 'resync' button. Something appears to get hosed up in its OS and it declines every attempt to resync it. I can tell when it has lost sync by checking the little 'sync' icon. And, of course, the time is off . . . 73 de dave ab9ca/4 On 11/29/14 11:30 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote: Unfortunately the consumer clocks seem to attempt to sync between 0200 and 0400 *local* (display) time regardless of the time zone. I have a couple that would display UTC but when I set them to do so they never sync because their window does not seem to include the optimum propagation window. 73, ... Joe, W4TV On 2014-11-29 8:02 AM, Nate Bargmann wrote: I reset my shack clock to local time, CST, yesterday evening and this morning it is correct to the second (it was running about 45 seconds fast). Now I'll have to see if it stays in sync over the long term. 73, Nate N0NB __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to ho13d...@gmail.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] OT: Changes at WWV, WWVB
The battery powered Oregon Scientific clock I tried to sync for about 10 minutes at a half-dozen different times each day. The main reason appeared to be saving battery power by turning the receiver off. Mine had an addendum that said they added a check at noon. If the clock was many hours off, the noon check would happen at night and set the clock. 73 -- Lynn On 11/29/2014 9:30 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote: Unfortunately the consumer clocks seem to attempt to sync between 0200 and 0400 *local* (display) time regardless of the time zone. I have a couple that would display UTC but when I set them to do so they never sync because their window does not seem to include the optimum propagation window. 73, ... Joe, W4TV __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] OT: Changes at WWV, WWVB
Hi interesting. It appears all Citizen atomic watches purchased recently use the newer protocol. Mine syncs every night even in a drawer and maintains the time to 1/4 of a second a day. How in the world does such a small antenna work at 60 kHz? On Nov 28, 2014 3:18 PM, Ken G Kopp kengk...@gmail.com wrote: I have a long-time close friend who's retired from the NBS in Boulder and was the project engineer on the NBS #7 cesium standard. After the recent reflector postings about WWV / WWVB I thought I would get first-hand recent information from him. The GPS satellites all carry on-board cesium standards that are synchronized with NTIS, and because of changes (below) to WWVB, cell phones remain the most accurate source of time for most of us. All the HF transmitters at Ft. Collins are the same TMC units that were put in service when the facility was built. The 2.5 and 20 MHz transmitters run at lower power due to propagation considerations. The time and other station-related voice info is sourced on site in Ft. Collins, and the various propagation and weather info comes from various dial in land-line sources. Hence the widely varying quality of these announcements. I forgot to ask about the individual who made the voice recordings ... Here's the most important info as of about a year ago the modulation scheme on WWVB (60 kHz) was changed (phase reversal each minute) and this has rendered most of the end-user equipment inoperative. Most (all ?) tracking receivers like the HP-117's are now useless without extensive modification. Most of the atomic clocks now in use -do not- synch to the current modulation scheme on the 60 kHz signal. This will explain the differences in displayed time on supposedly identical clocks and how some appear to not be getting sufficient enough signal to synchronize. He offered no comment on how to locate consumer clocks that -do- respond to the new modulation scheme. The 60 kHz transmitter is indeed an ex-LORAN C unit, and because of the higher power of the new transmitter the antenna system was rebuilt using material from the LORAN C site. The 20 kHz transmitter was home made by NBS staff at the old Beltsville, MD facility and moved to Ft. Collins. There is no longer an antenna for this transmitter and it will not return to the air. Trivia: The antenna was of such high-Q that a near-by thunderstorm system would often detune the system and cause the overload protection to trip the transmitter off. He suggests that a visit to the NBS website would be informative. 73 Ken Kopp - K0PP __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to tom...@videotron.ca __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] OT: Changes at WWV, WWVB
Hi Roger! Yes, you're not the first to spot my error about ND, and my friend is trying to confirm where the WWVB LORAN C transmitter came from I used to do hamfest talks on antennas for 160M and used several slides of the George, WA station. Last time I was there they had a Bobcat on the roof clearing ash from the Mt. St. Helens eruption. Ken - K0PP On Nov 28, 2014 1:41 PM, Roger D Johnson n...@roadrunner.com wrote: Interesting! As a former LORAN C guy I'm happy that at least one transmitter found a new home. You mentioned earlier that the transmitter came from the station in ND. However, the station in Lemoure, ND was an Omega station, not LORAN C. 73, Roger CWO4, USCG (ret) On 11/28/2014 3:18 PM, Ken G Kopp wrote: I have a long-time close friend who's retired from the NBS in Boulder and was the project engineer on the NBS #7 cesium standard. After the recent reflector postings about WWV / WWVB I thought I would get first-hand recent information from him. The GPS satellites all carry on-board cesium standards that are synchronized with NTIS, and because of changes (below) to WWVB, cell phones remain the most accurate source of time for most of us. All the HF transmitters at Ft. Collins are the same TMC units that were put in service when the facility was built. The 2.5 and 20 MHz transmitters run at lower power due to propagation considerations. The time and other station-related voice info is sourced on site in Ft. Collins, and the various propagation and weather info comes from various dial in land-line sources. Hence the widely varying quality of these announcements. I forgot to ask about the individual who made the voice recordings ... Here's the most important info as of about a year ago the modulation scheme on WWVB (60 kHz) was changed (phase reversal each minute) and this has rendered most of the end-user equipment inoperative. Most (all ?) tracking receivers like the HP-117's are now useless without extensive modification. Most of the atomic clocks now in use -do not- synch to the current modulation scheme on the 60 kHz signal. This will explain the differences in displayed time on supposedly identical clocks and how some appear to not be getting sufficient enough signal to synchronize. He offered no comment on how to locate consumer clocks that -do- respond to the new modulation scheme. The 60 kHz transmitter is indeed an ex-LORAN C unit, and because of the higher power of the new transmitter the antenna system was rebuilt using material from the LORAN C site. The 20 kHz transmitter was home made by NBS staff at the old Beltsville, MD facility and moved to Ft. Collins. There is no longer an antenna for this transmitter and it will not return to the air. Trivia: The antenna was of such high-Q that a near-by thunderstorm system would often detune the system and cause the overload protection to trip the transmitter off. He suggests that a visit to the NBS website would be informative. 73 Ken Kopp - K0PP __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to n...@roadrunner.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] OT: Changes at WWV, WWVB
A minor point . . . but I believe that the GPS satellites carry rubidium standards, not cesium. IIRC, the rubidium standards are much smaller and lighter and much more suited to satellite use. At one time I used a cesium standard to troubleshoot a timing issue when clocking the phone network. I think it, in its shipping container, weighed about 75#. The container probably weighed less than 15#. A cesium standard is fairly heavy. We had to lug it up to the 3rd floor of one central office. But the rubidium standards in the satellites are synced to the earth mounted cesium standards each day. And rubidium standards actually have better short term stability than do cesium standards. At least that is what I was taught in the various timing classes I attended. 73 de dave ab9ca/4 On 11/28/14 2:18 PM, Ken G Kopp wrote: I have a long-time close friend who's retired from the NBS in Boulder and was the project engineer on the NBS #7 cesium standard. After the recent reflector postings about WWV / WWVB I thought I would get first-hand recent information from him. The GPS satellites all carry on-board cesium standards that are synchronized with NTIS, and because of changes (below) to WWVB, cell phones remain the most accurate source of time for most of us. All the HF transmitters at Ft. Collins are the same TMC units that were put in service when the facility was built. The 2.5 and 20 MHz transmitters run at lower power due to propagation considerations. The time and other station-related voice info is sourced on site in Ft. Collins, and the various propagation and weather info comes from various dial in land-line sources. Hence the widely varying quality of these announcements. I forgot to ask about the individual who made the voice recordings ... Here's the most important info as of about a year ago the modulation scheme on WWVB (60 kHz) was changed (phase reversal each minute) and this has rendered most of the end-user equipment inoperative. Most (all ?) tracking receivers like the HP-117's are now useless without extensive modification. Most of the atomic clocks now in use -do not- synch to the current modulation scheme on the 60 kHz signal. This will explain the differences in displayed time on supposedly identical clocks and how some appear to not be getting sufficient enough signal to synchronize. He offered no comment on how to locate consumer clocks that -do- respond to the new modulation scheme. The 60 kHz transmitter is indeed an ex-LORAN C unit, and because of the higher power of the new transmitter the antenna system was rebuilt using material from the LORAN C site. The 20 kHz transmitter was home made by NBS staff at the old Beltsville, MD facility and moved to Ft. Collins. There is no longer an antenna for this transmitter and it will not return to the air. Trivia: The antenna was of such high-Q that a near-by thunderstorm system would often detune the system and cause the overload protection to trip the transmitter off. He suggests that a visit to the NBS website would be informative. 73 Ken Kopp - K0PP __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to ho13d...@gmail.com . __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] OT: Changes at WWV, WWVB
On 11/28/2014 1:25 PM, dave wrote: At one time I used a cesium standard to troubleshoot a timing issue when clocking the phone network. I think it, in its shipping container, weighed about 75#. The container probably weighed less than 15#. A cesium standard is fairly heavy. We had to lug it up to the 3rd floor of one central office. Fifty years ago I was a (junior) project engineer on the US Air Force's first computerized digital message switching system. Each of our switches used rubidium standards made by National Radio (the same folks who made the HRO line of receivers). They took up two full relay racks each, Times have changed! 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane Elecraft K2/100 s/n 5402 From a Clearing in the Silicon Forest Beaverton (Washington County) Oregon __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] OT: Changes at WWV, WWVB
And it's Lamoure not Lemoure (says the ex-North Dakotan). I actually visited that site back when I was attending Science Scool in Wahpeton. Racks and racks of mux's. Myron WVØH Printed on Recycled Data On Nov 28, 2014, at 1:54 PM, Ken G Kopp kengk...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Roger! Yes, you're not the first to spot my error about ND, and my friend is trying to confirm where the WWVB LORAN C transmitter came from I used to do hamfest talks on antennas for 160M and used several slides of the George, WA station. Last time I was there they had a Bobcat on the roof clearing ash from the Mt. St. Helens eruption. Ken - K0PP On Nov 28, 2014 1:41 PM, Roger D Johnson n...@roadrunner.com wrote: Interesting! As a former LORAN C guy I'm happy that at least one transmitter found a new home. You mentioned earlier that the transmitter came from the station in ND. However, the station in Lemoure, ND was an Omega station, not LORAN C. 73, Roger CWO4, USCG (ret) On 11/28/2014 3:18 PM, Ken G Kopp wrote: I have a long-time close friend who's retired from the NBS in Boulder and was the project engineer on the NBS #7 cesium standard. After the recent reflector postings about WWV / WWVB I thought I would get first-hand recent information from him. The GPS satellites all carry on-board cesium standards that are synchronized with NTIS, and because of changes (below) to WWVB, cell phones remain the most accurate source of time for most of us. All the HF transmitters at Ft. Collins are the same TMC units that were put in service when the facility was built. The 2.5 and 20 MHz transmitters run at lower power due to propagation considerations. The time and other station-related voice info is sourced on site in Ft. Collins, and the various propagation and weather info comes from various dial in land-line sources. Hence the widely varying quality of these announcements. I forgot to ask about the individual who made the voice recordings ... Here's the most important info as of about a year ago the modulation scheme on WWVB (60 kHz) was changed (phase reversal each minute) and this has rendered most of the end-user equipment inoperative. Most (all ?) tracking receivers like the HP-117's are now useless without extensive modification. Most of the atomic clocks now in use -do not- synch to the current modulation scheme on the 60 kHz signal. This will explain the differences in displayed time on supposedly identical clocks and how some appear to not be getting sufficient enough signal to synchronize. He offered no comment on how to locate consumer clocks that -do- respond to the new modulation scheme. The 60 kHz transmitter is indeed an ex-LORAN C unit, and because of the higher power of the new transmitter the antenna system was rebuilt using material from the LORAN C site. The 20 kHz transmitter was home made by NBS staff at the old Beltsville, MD facility and moved to Ft. Collins. There is no longer an antenna for this transmitter and it will not return to the air. Trivia: The antenna was of such high-Q that a near-by thunderstorm system would often detune the system and cause the overload protection to trip the transmitter off. He suggests that a visit to the NBS website would be informative. 73 Ken Kopp - K0PP __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to n...@roadrunner.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to myronschaf...@gmail.com __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] OT: Changes at WWV, WWVB
Interesting thread. OMEGA was on 10 - 14 or so KHz. There was a LORAN-C station in Gillette WY, maybe WWVB came from there. I would imagine converting a 100 KHz transmitter to 60 KHz is a whole lot easier than 10 KHz to 60 KHz. Near the end of the LORAN-C era, some of the transmitters were replaced by Accufix transmitters by MegaPulse Corp. No oscillator(s) or amplifier(s), no tubes, basically harked back to spark ... except they used SCR's instead of a spark gap. They also had a roomful of high-tech timing equipment, and produced exact LORAN-C pulses at a megawatt or so. I doubt WWVB is using one of those. :-) 73, Fred K6DGW - Northern California Contest Club - CU in the 50th Running of the Cal QSO Party 3-4 Oct 2015 - www.cqp.org On Nov 28, 2014, at 1:54 PM, Ken G Kopp kengk...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Roger! Yes, you're not the first to spot my error about ND, and my friend is trying to confirm where the WWVB LORAN C transmitter came from __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] OT: Changes at WWV, WWVB
On Fri, 28 Nov 2014, Ken G Kopp wrote: ... Here's the most important info as of about a year ago the modulation scheme on WWVB (60 kHz) was changed (phase reversal each minute) and this has rendered most of the end-user equipment inoperative. Most (all ?) tracking receivers like the HP-117's are now useless without extensive modification. Most of the atomic clocks now in use -do not- synch to the current modulation scheme on the 60 kHz signal. This will explain the differences in displayed time on supposedly identical clocks and how some appear to not be getting sufficient enough signal to synchronize. I heard from my time-nerd friends that the modulation scheme changes for a short period at night to allow a chance for older equipment to sync up. I don't know that for sure. Technology Review said there are millions of pieces of equipment that use the older scheme. -- Hisashi T Fujinaka - ht...@twofifty.com BSEE + BSChem + BAEnglish + MSCS + $2.50 = coffee __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] OT: Changes at WWV, WWVB
I heard from my time-nerd friends that the modulation scheme changes for a short period at night to allow a chance for older equipment to sync up. I don't know that for sure. Technology Review said there are millions of pieces of equipment that use the older scheme. This is indeed interesting stuff. First I've heard of the change. But I do have several automatically syncing clocks in the house and have noticed that he syncing isn't as robust and dependable as it was some years ago. For example, switching from standard to daylight savings time and back takes some of them a few days to accomplish, with some of them switching back and forth from day to day before finally getting it right. Don't think that signal strength is the problem. As someone else noted, it sure would be good to know which manufacturers use the new standard! 73 Craig AC0DS __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] OT: Changes at WWV, WWVB
* On 2014 28 Nov 17:41 -0600, Hisashi T Fujinaka wrote: I heard from my time-nerd friends that the modulation scheme changes for a short period at night to allow a chance for older equipment to sync up. I don't know that for sure. I have an older LaCrosse LCD clock that is my shack unit and started to not keep good time around 18 months ago that I noticed at my former QTH. Two years ago I added an amp and I presumed that I zapped something in its receiver as when reset it will keep sync for a time and then lose it. Right now it is 27 seconds fast and was last set at the beginning of April. At work we have a newer LaCrosse LCD clock on the wall and here in the kitchen I have an analog LaCrosse clock (it was purchased soon after the shack clock) and both stay in sync. Technology Review said there are millions of pieces of equipment that use the older scheme. It's possible that the shack clock is a victim of this change but the other two were purchased around the same time. One difference is that the shack clock is set to GMT and the others are set to local time. As I recall the clocks sync around midnight so the shack clock could be trying to sync five to six hours before the other two. If WWVB is set to account for this and runs the old protocol at midnight EST (10 PM MST) through midnight PST (1 AM MST), then that would make sense to me. I can try setting the shack clock to CST and see if it stays in sync, I suppose. 73, Nate, N0NB -- The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true. Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] OT: Changes at WWV, WWVB
I recieved a new la Crosse clock about two months ago In the instructions it stated that it would only sync a a specific time at night.And now I know why. David Moes President: Peterborough Amateur Radio Club. dm...@nexicom.net VE3DVY, VE3SD On 11/28/2014 18:40, Hisashi T Fujinaka wrote: On Fri, 28 Nov 2014, Ken G Kopp wrote: ... Here's the most important info as of about a year ago the modulation scheme on WWVB (60 kHz) was changed (phase reversal each minute) and this has rendered most of the end-user equipment inoperative. Most (all ?) tracking receivers like the HP-117's are now useless without extensive modification. Most of the atomic clocks now in use -do not- synch to the current modulation scheme on the 60 kHz signal. This will explain the differences in displayed time on supposedly identical clocks and how some appear to not be getting sufficient enough signal to synchronize. I heard from my time-nerd friends that the modulation scheme changes for a short period at night to allow a chance for older equipment to sync up. I don't know that for sure. Technology Review said there are millions of pieces of equipment that use the older scheme. __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] OT: Changes at WWV, WWVB
On 11/28/2014 1:18 PM, Ken G Kopp wrote: I have a long-time close friend who's retired from the NBS in Boulder and was the project engineer on the NBS #7 cesium standard. After the recent reflector postings about WWV / WWVB I thought I would get first-hand recent information from him. ... [snip] A number of years ago my late wife and I were touring the western states and went to Ft. Collins. I've looked at several big antenna sites during my travels (NAA, KVLY, VLA, Owens Valley, Guaymas Apollo Station, etc) and thought I'd try to see the WWV complex. So I called them up on the telephone and asked the guy who answered whether I could get a tour of the facility. He was somewhat incredulous and told me in no uncertain terms that they didn't give tours. I said, What a pity, I've visited other fun sites and gotten tours, I'm an engineer in the defense biz, a ham, yada yada. He said, Sorry. Then after an, Ah shucks from me, he said, Well, I'll tell you what, there's a contractor doing some work here and the gate is unlocked. Drive in and take a look around, but stay in your car please. Wes N7WS __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: [Elecraft] OT: Changes at WWV, WWVB
On Fri, 28 Nov 2014 19:19:31 -0600, Nate Bargmann wrote: It's possible that the shack clock is a victim of this change but the other two were purchased around the same time. One difference is that the shack clock is set to GMT and the others are set to local time. As I recall the clocks sync around midnight so the shack clock could be trying to sync five to six hours before the other two. If WWVB is set to account for this and runs the old protocol at midnight EST (10 PM MST) through midnight PST (1 AM MST), then that would make sense to me. I can try setting the shack clock to CST and see if it stays in sync, I suppose. I don't know this for a fact, but I would assume that they all run at UTC and then run a correction, based on your timezone setting, that shifts it the proper amount for the timezone you set. Ken - Thanks for that info. It helps me understand why my shack clock quit working a long time ago. I moved it all over the place, including in place of another one in another part of the house that worked right, and it would never correct. It was minutes off when I finally tossed it and bought a couple of new ones. They all work fine now. Because of this, I really doubt that they switch back once a day to bring the old equipment up to speed and then switch back. It never corrected itself in over a year. Gary - AG0N __ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:Elecraft@mailman.qth.net This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to arch...@mail-archive.com
