Re: [Elecraft] Sudden K3 AGC pop-off after adding P3

2011-10-09 Thread ab2tc
Hi,

I think part of the problem is that HRD's author purchased an early K3,
soured rather quickly on it and sold it again before many early firmware
shortcomings in the serial communications area were ironed out. Hopefully
the new owners of HRD will add full support for the current state of the K3
firmware.

AB2TC - Knut



Joe Subich, W4TV-4 wrote:
 
 Why should polling the AGC randomly turn it off on the K3?
 
 Because HRD uses the *K22* mode.  If HRD would use the K3 commands
 and not enable the K2 extended command set, the GT command would
 require an explicit off command.
 
 What appears to happen is a data clash between HRD and the P3 ...
 P3 data or an echo gets appended to the the GT; poll to the K3.
 The the corrupted data is just right AGC is turned off.
 
 Why does HRD use an old command set and why does it poll for AGC
 status *THREE TIMES*?  Polling for the same data three times in
 31 milliseconds is stupid, sloppy, and increases the chance of
 false triggering exponentially.
 
 73,
 
 ... Joe, W4TV
 
 snip
 


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Re: [Elecraft] Sudden K3 AGC pop-off after adding P3

2011-10-09 Thread Stephen Prior
That's a pretty fair analysis Knut I think.  I listened to a lecture by
Simon of HRD fame yesterday morning (at the RSGB Convention) and it's very
clear that Simon, by his own admission, much prefers the computer controlled
big screen route and abhors multifunction buttons on transceivers such as
the K3.  Incidentally, although Simon's lecture was principally concerned
with his work with RFSpace (which was very interesting indeed if you are
into 'pure' SDR), he remains very complimentary about the K3's receive
performance.  It's beginning to look as if the more advanced RFSpace
offerings will give the K3 a good run for its money in receive performance
terms, but from my perspective, I'm afraid it's got to have knobs on!

73 Stephen G4SJP

On 9 October 2011 20:35, ab2tc ab...@arrl.net wrote:

 Hi,

 I think part of the problem is that HRD's author purchased an early K3,
 soured rather quickly on it and sold it again before many early firmware
 shortcomings in the serial communications area were ironed out. Hopefully
 the new owners of HRD will add full support for the current state of the K3
 firmware.

 AB2TC - Knut



 Joe Subich, W4TV-4 wrote:
 
  Why should polling the AGC randomly turn it off on the K3?
 
  Because HRD uses the *K22* mode.  If HRD would use the K3 commands
  and not enable the K2 extended command set, the GT command would
  require an explicit off command.
 
  What appears to happen is a data clash between HRD and the P3 ...
  P3 data or an echo gets appended to the the GT; poll to the K3.
  The the corrupted data is just right AGC is turned off.
 
  Why does HRD use an old command set and why does it poll for AGC
  status *THREE TIMES*?  Polling for the same data three times in
  31 milliseconds is stupid, sloppy, and increases the chance of
  false triggering exponentially.
 
  73,
 
  ... Joe, W4TV
 
  snip
 


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 View this message in context:
 http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/Sudden-K3-AGC-pop-off-after-adding-P3-tp6872073p6875045.html
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Re: [Elecraft] Sudden K3 AGC pop-off after adding P3

2011-10-09 Thread Tony Estep
On Sun, Oct 9, 2011 at 2:45 PM, Stephen Prior eastbrantw...@gmail.comwrote:

  the more advanced RFSpace
 offerings will give the K3 a good run for its money in receive performance
 terms, but from my perspective, I'm afraid it's got to have knobs on!



It's been observed by many on this reflector and elsewhere that the quality
of programming of ham software has not come up to equal  the quality of
hardware design. I think this criticism is pretty valid. Moreover I don't
see why there is any magic to having a PC do demodulation and DSP, tasks
that are really better suited to dedicated CPU and DSP chips inside the
radio. I've tried it both ways and I agree with Stephen about the knobs.
IMHO, the KX3 design makes a heck of a lot more sense than a knobless image
on a computer that you operate with a mouse. The ideal combo would be a
knob-equipped radio that put  out I-Q directly to a PC program that put up a
clickable panadapter, just like the setup you get by using LP-Pan with a K3
except that the LP-Pan function would be brought onboard the radio -- as it
is in the KX3.

73, Tony KT0NY

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Re: [Elecraft] Sudden K3 AGC pop-off after adding P3

2011-10-08 Thread David Honey
Dan,

This is a known issue with HRD used with the K3. It happens with me a 
few times a week with my K3+P3. Reducing the polling rate of the K3 in 
HRD may reduce the frequency of this issue, but it won't eliminate it. 
The choice seems to be either put up it, or stop using HRD. Simon Brown 
has handed over the reins of HRD development, so perhaps the new team 
can devote some time to investigating and fixing this.

vy 73 de David M0DHO
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Re: [Elecraft] Sudden K3 AGC pop-off after adding P3

2011-10-08 Thread Don Wilhelm
Dan,

As David indicated, this is caused by HRD.  Nothing wrong in the K3 or 
P3 at all.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 10/8/2011 4:51 AM, Dan Sherwood wrote:
 All,

 After building and installing a new P3 pan adapter on a relatively new K3, I
 notice the AGC fast or slow setting would suddenly shut off, accompanied by
 a loud, distorted blast of signal audio.  Normal AGC function is
 re-established by holding the AGC button, then tapping to select fast or
 slow.  That would happen after a random period of time after power up and
 sitting on a frequency, (several minutes to an hour).


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Re: [Elecraft] Sudden K3 AGC pop-off after adding P3

2011-10-08 Thread Joe Subich, W4TV

 At the time, the P3 was also connected to a PC running HRD v5.0. No
 specific commands issued to HRD at the times of the AGC pop-off. I
 was not transmitting at the time it occurred either, (RF not an
 issue).

As indicated by others, this is an issue with overpolling by HRD.  HRD
enables the *K2* extended response mode and then polls for AGC status
*three times in succession* with no lag between the response to one
poll and the next poll regardless of the Refresh Interval set in the
HRD Options.

It appears that the slight delay in data through the P3 and the poor
programming in HRD combine, perhaps with noise, to generate a false
AGC OFF command.  One known work around (although with side effects
of its own) is to use LP-Bridge as a buffer between HRD and the K3.
LP-Bridge answers many of HRDs polls from its own cache and reduces
the excessive of the K3/P3.

Note - GT; is not the only duplicated poll issued by HRD.  In
addition to polling for AGC three times, HRD polls for both VFOs
(FA;/FB;) twice, selected transmit VFO (FT;) twice, Bandwidth (FW;)
*five* times,  Antenna selection (AN;) twice, and Power level (PC;)
twice!

73,

... Joe, W4TV


On 10/8/2011 4:51 AM, Dan Sherwood wrote:
 All,

 After building and installing a new P3 pan adapter on a relatively new K3, I
 notice the AGC fast or slow setting would suddenly shut off, accompanied by
 a loud, distorted blast of signal audio.  Normal AGC function is
 re-established by holding the AGC button, then tapping to select fast or
 slow.  That would happen after a random period of time after power up and
 sitting on a frequency, (several minutes to an hour).

 I did not notice this issue before the P3 was plugged into the rig.  I¹ve
 run the K3 over a week, including through the CQP contest and never noticed
 this issue before.  Not sure if this is a software glitch or what.  With a
 Heil Pro Set on, it is painful since it is unexpected, resulting in my
 rapidly and forcibly removing the Heil Pro Set from my head!

 At the time, the P3 was also connected to a PC running HRD v5.0.  No
 specific commands issued to HRD at the times of the AGC pop-off.  I was not
 transmitting at the time it occurred either, (RF not an issue).

 I have the P3 right up against the right side of the K3 with only a few mm
 separation afforded by the rubber feet on the K3.  I notice the K3 case is
 hotter there, as the voltage regulators are attached internally to the case.
 Should I allow some space for cooling there?

 Any ideas?

 73,

 Dan Sherwood
 WA6PZK

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Re: [Elecraft] Sudden K3 AGC pop-off after adding P3

2011-10-08 Thread Dan Sherwood
Joe,

That's certainly a plausible explanation.  We ran MM logger all last weekend
during the CQP without problems, (P3 not built yet).  I had no issue with
HRD earlier yesterday, until later at night when I switched to 40 and 80
meters looking for few signals through heavy static crashes.  With all the
AGC pumping going on is when I had these problems.  Have the K3/P3 running
all morning w/o HRD.  No problems.

I'm looking at the LP bridge website now.  Thanks for the suggestion.

73,

Dan
WA6PZK



On 10/8/11 6:29 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV li...@subich.com wrote:

 
 At the time, the P3 was also connected to a PC running HRD v5.0. No
 specific commands issued to HRD at the times of the AGC pop-off. I
 was not transmitting at the time it occurred either, (RF not an
 issue).
 
 As indicated by others, this is an issue with overpolling by HRD.  HRD
 enables the *K2* extended response mode and then polls for AGC status
 *three times in succession* with no lag between the response to one
 poll and the next poll regardless of the Refresh Interval set in the
 HRD Options.
 
 It appears that the slight delay in data through the P3 and the poor
 programming in HRD combine, perhaps with noise, to generate a false
 AGC OFF command.  One known work around (although with side effects
 of its own) is to use LP-Bridge as a buffer between HRD and the K3.
 LP-Bridge answers many of HRDs polls from its own cache and reduces
 the excessive of the K3/P3.
 
 Note - GT; is not the only duplicated poll issued by HRD.  In
 addition to polling for AGC three times, HRD polls for both VFOs
 (FA;/FB;) twice, selected transmit VFO (FT;) twice, Bandwidth (FW;)
 *five* times,  Antenna selection (AN;) twice, and Power level (PC;)
 twice!
 
 73,
 
 ... Joe, W4TV
 
 
 On 10/8/2011 4:51 AM, Dan Sherwood wrote:
 All,
 
 After building and installing a new P3 pan adapter on a relatively new K3, I
 notice the AGC fast or slow setting would suddenly shut off, accompanied by
 a loud, distorted blast of signal audio.  Normal AGC function is
 re-established by holding the AGC button, then tapping to select fast or
 slow.  That would happen after a random period of time after power up and
 sitting on a frequency, (several minutes to an hour).
 
 I did not notice this issue before the P3 was plugged into the rig.  I¹ve
 run the K3 over a week, including through the CQP contest and never noticed
 this issue before.  Not sure if this is a software glitch or what.  With a
 Heil Pro Set on, it is painful since it is unexpected, resulting in my
 rapidly and forcibly removing the Heil Pro Set from my head!
 
 At the time, the P3 was also connected to a PC running HRD v5.0.  No
 specific commands issued to HRD at the times of the AGC pop-off.  I was not
 transmitting at the time it occurred either, (RF not an issue).
 
 I have the P3 right up against the right side of the K3 with only a few mm
 separation afforded by the rubber feet on the K3.  I notice the K3 case is
 hotter there, as the voltage regulators are attached internally to the case.
 Should I allow some space for cooling there?
 
 Any ideas?
 
 73,
 
 Dan Sherwood
 WA6PZK
 
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Re: [Elecraft] Sudden K3 AGC pop-off after adding P3

2011-10-08 Thread Alan Sewell N5NA
This is a problem not only for HRD but any software in which the AGC 
status is polled continuously.  I frequently use CQ/X by NO5W and had 
the same problem.  Chuck turned off the AGC polling in CQ/X and the 
problem no longer occurs.  Of course, now the AGC status can't be shown 
in his remote interface.

I sent Wayne, N6KR, a couple of log files from portmon back in July 
showing what was happening but so far I haven't seen any updates on this.

73,  Alan  N5NA

 --

 Message: 39
 Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2011 10:11:21 +0100
 From: David Honeyda...@honeyfamily.org.uk
 Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Sudden K3 AGC pop-off after adding P3
 To:elecraft@mailman.qth.net
 Message-ID:4e9013b9.6000...@honeyfamily.org.uk
 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

 Dan,

 This is a known issue with HRD used with the K3. It happens with me a
 few times a week with my K3+P3. Reducing the polling rate of the K3 in
 HRD may reduce the frequency of this issue, but it won't eliminate it.
 The choice seems to be either put up it, or stop using HRD. Simon Brown
 has handed over the reins of HRD development, so perhaps the new team
 can devote some time to investigating and fixing this.

 vy 73 de David M0DHO


 --

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Re: [Elecraft] Sudden K3 AGC pop-off after adding P3

2011-10-08 Thread Guy Olinger K2AV
The real deal would be why the over-polling is necessary in the first place.
 I'd guess it's done to service ALL the different rig types (not just
Elecraft and K3) with a single strip of code, instead of pushing those
constants at program startup based on the target or configured hardware.

If it's not cheep code, then it's certainly not state of the art, nor at all
close.  One always should have a constants library which carries the array
of values necessary to drive any hardware timing sensitive code.

Where I worked at my last TWO places of employment, going back to an ATT
school in 1976 (!), embedding target-variable constants in program code and
using code switches would get your code summarily rejected by a reviewer or
auditor, subject one to an auditor approved redesign and recode (with prior
effort flushed down the turlet), and have an effect on one's pay grade.
There was a brutal standards are just that attitude.  Putting in the table
driven code costs some in the beginning, but saves huge in maintenance, and
a maze of switches eventually means recoding in its entirety.

That's probably what we're really fighting with the HRD code. Otherwise it's
a simple table change that gets done in seconds, and then recompiled.

73, Guy.

On Sat, Oct 8, 2011 at 12:31 PM, Alan Sewell N5NA alan.n...@gmail.comwrote:

 This is a problem not only for HRD but any software in which the AGC
 status is polled continuously.  I frequently use CQ/X by NO5W and had
 the same problem.  Chuck turned off the AGC polling in CQ/X and the
 problem no longer occurs.  Of course, now the AGC status can't be shown
 in his remote interface.

 I sent Wayne, N6KR, a couple of log files from portmon back in July
 showing what was happening but so far I haven't seen any updates on this.

 73,  Alan  N5NA

  --
 
  Message: 39
  Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2011 10:11:21 +0100
  From: David Honeyda...@honeyfamily.org.uk
  Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Sudden K3 AGC pop-off after adding P3
  To:elecraft@mailman.qth.net
  Message-ID:4e9013b9.6000...@honeyfamily.org.uk
  Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
 
  Dan,
 
  This is a known issue with HRD used with the K3. It happens with me a
  few times a week with my K3+P3. Reducing the polling rate of the K3 in
  HRD may reduce the frequency of this issue, but it won't eliminate it.
  The choice seems to be either put up it, or stop using HRD. Simon Brown
  has handed over the reins of HRD development, so perhaps the new team
  can devote some time to investigating and fixing this.
 
  vy 73 de David M0DHO
 
 
  --

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Re: [Elecraft] Sudden K3 AGC pop-off after adding P3

2011-10-08 Thread n5ge

Spot on Guy.

I ran into that mentality when working for a well known defense contractor on
the 80's and 90's.  They passed me two years in a row when raise time came
because I was doing it.  My bossett had no understanding of look up tables or
even struct's in C language.

73,
Tom
Amateur Radio Operator N5GE
ARRL Lifetime Member
QCWA Lifetime Member


On Sat, 8 Oct 2011 13:29:56 -0400, Guy Olinger K2AV olin...@bellsouth.net
wrote:

The real deal would be why the over-polling is necessary in the first place.
 I'd guess it's done to service ALL the different rig types (not just
Elecraft and K3) with a single strip of code, instead of pushing those
constants at program startup based on the target or configured hardware.

If it's not cheep code, then it's certainly not state of the art, nor at all
close.  One always should have a constants library which carries the array
of values necessary to drive any hardware timing sensitive code.

Where I worked at my last TWO places of employment, going back to an ATT
school in 1976 (!), embedding target-variable constants in program code and
using code switches would get your code summarily rejected by a reviewer or
auditor, subject one to an auditor approved redesign and recode (with prior
effort flushed down the turlet), and have an effect on one's pay grade.
There was a brutal standards are just that attitude.  Putting in the table
driven code costs some in the beginning, but saves huge in maintenance, and
a maze of switches eventually means recoding in its entirety.

That's probably what we're really fighting with the HRD code. Otherwise it's
a simple table change that gets done in seconds, and then recompiled.

73, Guy.

On Sat, Oct 8, 2011 at 12:31 PM, Alan Sewell N5NA alan.n...@gmail.comwrote:

 This is a problem not only for HRD but any software in which the AGC
 status is polled continuously.  I frequently use CQ/X by NO5W and had
 the same problem.  Chuck turned off the AGC polling in CQ/X and the
 problem no longer occurs.  Of course, now the AGC status can't be shown
 in his remote interface.

 I sent Wayne, N6KR, a couple of log files from portmon back in July
 showing what was happening but so far I haven't seen any updates on this.

 73,  Alan  N5NA

  --
 
  Message: 39
  Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2011 10:11:21 +0100
  From: David Honeyda...@honeyfamily.org.uk
  Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Sudden K3 AGC pop-off after adding P3
  To:elecraft@mailman.qth.net
  Message-ID:4e9013b9.6000...@honeyfamily.org.uk
  Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
 
  Dan,
 
  This is a known issue with HRD used with the K3. It happens with me a
  few times a week with my K3+P3. Reducing the polling rate of the K3 in
  HRD may reduce the frequency of this issue, but it won't eliminate it.
  The choice seems to be either put up it, or stop using HRD. Simon Brown
  has handed over the reins of HRD development, so perhaps the new team
  can devote some time to investigating and fixing this.
 
  vy 73 de David M0DHO
 
 
  --

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Re: [Elecraft] Sudden K3 AGC pop-off after adding P3

2011-10-08 Thread Alan Sewell N5NA
I'm not a programmer nor do I play one on TV.  I'm just an observer.

Why should polling the AGC randomly turn it off on the K3?  None of the 
other parameters that are polled at the same frequency are adversely 
affected, only the AGC.

AGC should be able to be polled without it turning off.

Alan


On 10/8/2011 12:29 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:
 The real deal would be why the over-polling is necessary in the first 
 place.  I'd guess it's done to service ALL the different rig types 
 (not just Elecraft and K3) with a single strip of code, instead of 
 pushing those constants at program startup based on the target or 
 configured hardware.

 If it's not cheep code, then it's certainly not state of the art, nor 
 at all close.  One always should have a constants library which 
 carries the array of values necessary to drive any hardware timing 
 sensitive code.

 Where I worked at my last TWO places of employment, going back to an 
 ATT school in 1976 (!), embedding target-variable constants in 
 program code and using code switches would get your code summarily 
 rejected by a reviewer or auditor, subject one to an auditor approved 
 redesign and recode (with prior effort flushed down the turlet), and 
 have an effect on one's pay grade. There was a brutal standards are 
 just that attitude.  Putting in the table driven code costs some in 
 the beginning, but saves huge in maintenance, and a maze of switches 
 eventually means recoding in its entirety.

 That's probably what we're really fighting with the HRD code. 
 Otherwise it's a simple table change that gets done in seconds, and 
 then recompiled.

 73, Guy.

 On Sat, Oct 8, 2011 at 12:31 PM, Alan Sewell N5NA alan.n...@gmail.com 
 mailto:alan.n...@gmail.com wrote:

 This is a problem not only for HRD but any software in which the AGC
 status is polled continuously.  I frequently use CQ/X by NO5W and had
 the same problem.  Chuck turned off the AGC polling in CQ/X and the
 problem no longer occurs.  Of course, now the AGC status can't be
 shown
 in his remote interface.

 I sent Wayne, N6KR, a couple of log files from portmon back in July
 showing what was happening but so far I haven't seen any updates
 on this.

 73,  Alan  N5NA

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Re: [Elecraft] Sudden K3 AGC pop-off after adding P3

2011-10-08 Thread Joe Subich, W4TV

  Why should polling the AGC randomly turn it off on the K3?

Because HRD uses the *K22* mode.  If HRD would use the K3 commands
and not enable the K2 extended command set, the GT command would
require an explicit off command.

What appears to happen is a data clash between HRD and the P3 ...
P3 data or an echo gets appended to the the GT; poll to the K3.
The the corrupted data is just right AGC is turned off.

Why does HRD use an old command set and why does it poll for AGC
status *THREE TIMES*?  Polling for the same data three times in
31 milliseconds is stupid, sloppy, and increases the chance of
false triggering exponentially.

73,

... Joe, W4TV


On 10/8/2011 2:54 PM, Alan Sewell N5NA wrote:
 I'm not a programmer nor do I play one on TV.  I'm just an observer.

 Why should polling the AGC randomly turn it off on the K3?  None of the
 other parameters that are polled at the same frequency are adversely
 affected, only the AGC.

 AGC should be able to be polled without it turning off.

 Alan


 On 10/8/2011 12:29 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:
 The real deal would be why the over-polling is necessary in the first
 place.  I'd guess it's done to service ALL the different rig types
 (not just Elecraft and K3) with a single strip of code, instead of
 pushing those constants at program startup based on the target or
 configured hardware.

 If it's not cheep code, then it's certainly not state of the art, nor
 at all close.  One always should have a constants library which
 carries the array of values necessary to drive any hardware timing
 sensitive code.

 Where I worked at my last TWO places of employment, going back to an
 ATT school in 1976 (!), embedding target-variable constants in
 program code and using code switches would get your code summarily
 rejected by a reviewer or auditor, subject one to an auditor approved
 redesign and recode (with prior effort flushed down the turlet), and
 have an effect on one's pay grade. There was a brutal standards are
 just that attitude.  Putting in the table driven code costs some in
 the beginning, but saves huge in maintenance, and a maze of switches
 eventually means recoding in its entirety.

 That's probably what we're really fighting with the HRD code.
 Otherwise it's a simple table change that gets done in seconds, and
 then recompiled.

 73, Guy.

 On Sat, Oct 8, 2011 at 12:31 PM, Alan Sewell N5NAalan.n...@gmail.com
 mailto:alan.n...@gmail.com  wrote:

  This is a problem not only for HRD but any software in which the AGC
  status is polled continuously.  I frequently use CQ/X by NO5W and had
  the same problem.  Chuck turned off the AGC polling in CQ/X and the
  problem no longer occurs.  Of course, now the AGC status can't be
  shown
  in his remote interface.

  I sent Wayne, N6KR, a couple of log files from portmon back in July
  showing what was happening but so far I haven't seen any updates
  on this.

  73,  Alan  N5NA

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