[elm-discuss] Content on Ports

[Zachary Kessin]

Hi All

I heard Evan's comment on the Last Elm Town Podcast about we need more
content about how to use Ports and I thought I will try to fill the
void.
(Fill the Nothing?) I have some ideas for videos but I would love to hear
what other people got stuck on so I can cover a bunch of use cases

Zach

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Re: [elm-discuss] What build system do you prefer for Elm?

[Zachary Kessin]

I generally just use GNU Make, I also use it to kick off other builds in
the project so that works well.

Zach
ᐧ

On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 12:53 AM, Dustin Farris 
wrote:

> I’ve been using broccoli for 8 months now and very happy.
>
> Here’s a plugin I made for elm: https://github.com/
> dustinfarris/broccoli-elm-make
>
> If you end up trying it I’d love your feedback!
>
>
> On Oct 31, 2017, at 10:18 AM, 'Rupert Smith' via Elm Discuss <
> elm-discuss@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
> I've been using grunt up until now. Looking into webpack at the moment as
> a few github projects I've been looking at use it.
>
> Anyone got any thoughts on the advantages/disadvantages of the various
> possibility wrt Elm?
>
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[elm-discuss] Elm Case Studies

[Zachary Kessin]

I am working on building a whitepaper on Elm to introduce the concepts to
managers CTOs etc. If you are using Elm in production and would be willing
to have a skype conversation about how it has worked out at your shop I
would love to have a chance to talk to you.

Thanks
Zach

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Re: [elm-discuss] Support for binary data

[Zachary Kessin]

I would really like to have a way to do file uploads in Elm, I needed that
at a project a while back

Zach
ᐧ

On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 8:18 PM, Coury Ditch  wrote:

> Here are a couple relevant repos so far - they are mostly barren at the
> moment, as we're trying to solve some hard API problems before we put too
> much code down.
>
> https://github.com/cmditch/elm-web3
> https://github.com/cmditch/elm-truffle-webpack
>
>
> On Sunday, July 9, 2017 at 9:49:46 AM UTC-6, Berry Groenendijk wrote:
>>
>> Coury,
>>
>> I am very interested in an Elm version of web3.js. For exactly the reason
>> you mentioned. Where can I follow the progress on this project?
>>
>> Berry
>>
>> Op zaterdag 8 juli 2017 21:30:53 UTC+2 schreef Coury Ditch:
>>>
>>> Our use case: Pure elm library for cryptographic functions.
>>>
>>> We are creating a pure Elm web3.js equivalent. We think Ethereum
>>> developers and the blockchain developer community at large would benefit
>>> from the strong guarantees of using Elm.
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> On Monday, January 11, 2016 at 5:32:43 PM UTC-7, Evan wrote:

 I have been drafting Blob and ArrayBuffer APIs, but I wasn't sure who
 needed them.

 What is your particular use case?

 On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 4:55 AM, John Watson 
 wrote:

> Can anyone tell me what the plans are for supporting binary data in
> elm?  I'm thinking of a Byte (and some sort of Byte Array) type and also
> implementing Blob in HTTP responses.
>
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Re: [elm-discuss] any editor supports elm simple whole-buffer reformat?

[Zachary Kessin]

I have found elm and emacs work just fine it just takes some fine tuning

Zach
ᐧ

On Sun, Jul 2, 2017 at 8:53 PM, 'Rupert Smith' via Elm Discuss <
elm-discuss@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> On Saturday, July 1, 2017 at 1:33:04 AM UTC+1, Raoul Duke wrote:
>>
>> Thanks! I did do that. Did sorta get it working in emacs mode! But
>> overall it didn't / doesn't seem to work so well, as I said -- wonky
>> UX. Now hoping for something that really just works out of the box
>> w/out any extra config at all?
>>
>
> I am also a fan of Emacs, but have not had much joy with Emacs and Elm.
> Probably we are in a minority liking both Emacs and Elm.
>
> Try Atom + elmjitsu + elm-format.
>
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Re: [elm-discuss] Unexpected Time.every drift over time

[Zachary Kessin]

Trying to keep a server and clients in time sync is a really hard problem!
Actually, it's more or less an impossible problem in the general case as
time drift between nodes in inevitable and timing accuracy is limited by
relativity. I would look at this article
http://infiniteundo.com/post/25326999628/falsehoods-programmers-believe-about-time
as well as this one http://ferd.ca/beating-the-cap-theorem-checklist.html

Zach
ᐧ

On Mon, Jun 5, 2017 at 10:00 AM, RGBboy  wrote:

> On Safari/node setInterval does indeed exhibit the same issue so this is
> not a bug in Elms core. However Elm does have an opportunity to smooth this
> inconsistency out.
>
> What I have done so far to mitigate this issue is essentially what you
> describe. I have experimented with a couple of different solutions to find
> one that is simple to use. The implementation that I have found most simple
> so far (for the consumer) is an effects manager that uses Time.now and
> Process.sleep instead of setInterval.
>
> As for not relying on fixed interval messages, this is not something that
> my application can do. I am running a deterministic simulation on a server
> and multiple clients. In order for the clients and server to stay in sync
> they must stay close in timestep. It does have tolerance for some drift,
> however as drift increases the servers simulation gets more out of sync
> with the clients.
>
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Re: [elm-discuss] Idris holes - Thoughts for Elm?

[Zachary Kessin]

totally agree, it would also make it easier to have your editor fill in the
code for me

Lets say you have a type like this
type Direction = North|South|East | West
move: Pos -> Direction -> Pos
move pos dir =
  case dir of
 North -> ?rhs
 South -> ?rhs
etc

What I would like is to write "case dir of" and hit <> (or some other
key) in my editor and have the case statement with holes filled in for me.

I think Idris does this already

Zach
ᐧ

On Tue, May 23, 2017 at 2:11 AM, Witold Szczerba 
wrote:

> I think it looks like a good idea. When I am adding new a feature, very
> often I have such a "holes", implementation details, which I do not want to
> code at the time of introduction, because I am not sure the final result of
> my changes. So, in order to make compiler happy, I am improvising with some
> dump implementation just to let me go further and at the end, I have to
> look for them and fix.
>
> Such a "holes" would be great.
>
> On Mon, May 22, 2017 at 8:40 PM, W. Brian Gourlie 
> wrote:
>
>> For the uninitiated, Idris  is a
>> pure functional language with a cutting-edge type system. However, this is
>> not another "We should make Elm's type system more advanced by introducing
>> X." Rather, I ran across a feature in Idris that seems like it would fit
>> nicely into Elm based on the fact that it further empowers the compiler to
>> assist the developer, and empowers the developer to iteratively develop
>> their code. This feature is called holes.
>>
>> *What are holes?*
>>
>> To put it succinctly, a "hole" is a hole in your implementation. Think of
>> it as an expression whose value is inferred based on surrounding context,
>> but does not actually produce a value. Holes allow our code to type-check
>> while freeing the developer from actually having to worry about
>> implementing every part of a function or program as they're writing it.
>>
>> *How does an incomplete program compile?*
>>
>> The short answer is, it doesn't. There would need to be a distinction
>> between a program that satisfies the type-checker, and a program that can
>> be compiled. For example, there may be a hypothetical command `elm-make
>> --check`. Or, perhaps, a special compilation mode that would convert holes
>> into Debug.crash statements.
>>
>> *A practical example*
>>
>> Consider the following code:
>>
>> describeTemp : Int -> String
>> describeTemp temp =
>>   if temp > 100 then
>> "Really hot!"
>>   else if temp < 32 then
>> "Freezing"
>>   else if temp < 0 then
>> ?belowZeroMessage
>>  else
>> ?catchAllMessage
>>
>> In the above example, we declared two holes using the syntax
>> `?holeName`.  The theoretical output of the type checker may be something
>> like:
>>
>> Type Checking Succeeded!
>>
>> You have 2 holes to fill:
>>
>> 8| ?belowZeroMessage
>>^
>> belowZeroMessage : String
>>
>> 10| ?catchAllMessage
>> 
>>
>> catchAllMessage : String
>>
>>
>> The example is simple and contrived, so it's not necessarily
>> representative of a scenario where it would be useful, but for more complex
>> applications where you want to build things iteratively, with
>> type-checking, without resorting to returning dummy values or things like
>> `Debug.crash`, this would be very useful!
>>
>> I'd be curious to know what everyone else thinks.
>>
>> Brian
>>
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Re: [elm-discuss] Re: Collecting use cases for File, ArrayBuffer and TypedArrays/DataViews

[Zachary Kessin]

I had a use in my old job where I had to upload a CSV file to a server for
parsing etc. Pretty simple really, I used some package someone did with
some native code.

Zach
ᐧ

On Fri, May 5, 2017 at 11:13 PM, Kasey Speakman 
wrote:

> *Uploading files to AWS S3*
>
> That's my only use case so far for binary-type APIs of JS. I first call my
> own API to get a signed upload link, then PUT a file at that link. My
> simple way to upload files using Elm's Http module can be found here
> .
>
> I'm also delivering streaming media to the browser, but I'm doing that
> through existing JS libraries in an iframe.
>
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Re: [elm-discuss] Re: Moving on

[Zachary Kessin]

I think if we are working on the basis of a blessed set of modules one of
the requirements should be having several people who can merge a pull
request etc.

Zach
ᐧ

On Thu, Apr 27, 2017 at 1:48 PM, Rehno Lindeque 
wrote:

>
> This grey list would be backed by a clear process of getting things on the
>> list that would include a checklist of mandatory things.
>> This checklist would be like a rule list and breaking any of the rule
>> would have to happen after a serious benefits analysis done under the
>> supervision of that experienced Elm programmers group I mentioned earlier.
>>
>
> If this were the route people decide to take, I get the impression that
> this is the sort of thing elm-community does quite well. Perhaps a
> "greylist" could be simplified to https://github.com/elm-community/*.
>
> Something to keep in mind is that there's likely to be red tape required
> to fork a package on a special list. Not great if you need to fix something
> in a hurry and the author has disappeared. Elm-community provides a little
> bit of peace of mind for people like me who would like to make sure that
> packages they use have at least one active maintainer assigned to it and
> that the code has had some level of peer review.
>
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Re: [elm-discuss] Moving on

[Zachary Kessin]

Yes, please let us know how you failed so that we can try to improve it!

Zach
ᐧ

On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 5:23 PM, John Orford  wrote:

> More info would be nice - just purely out of curiosity. If you have
> written about this elsewhere, pls pt this out. Thanks.
>
> On Mon, 24 Apr 2017 at 15:58 Juan Ibiapina  wrote:
>
>> Good to know I'm not the only one with this feeling!
>>
>> On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 3:45 PM, Duane Johnson 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> I've decided to move on from Elm. I've only been successful in 1 of 3
>>> projects. I'm now in a role where I need to make an important decision
>>> regarding the transition of a codebase from Angular to something else, and
>>> I don't feel like I can responsibly recommend Elm as the replacement. So I
>>> need to focus my time and effort elsewhere.
>>>
>>> If someone could please remove me as a moderator of elm-discuss it would
>>> be appreciated.
>>>
>>> If anyone is interested in taking the `canadaduane/typed-svg` project
>>> over, I'd be happy to help transition it to willing hands.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Duane Johnson
>>> aka canadaduane
>>>
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
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>>
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Re: [elm-discuss] Elm kernel for Jupyter

[Zachary Kessin]

Very cool, could be quite useful for teaching elm

Zach
ᐧ

On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 11:27 AM, Austin Bingham 
wrote:

> I'm happy to announce that the Elm kernel for Jupyter is ready for use (by
> the adventurous, at least). You can get it here:
>
> https://github.com/abingham/jupyter-elm-kernel
>
> There's still a fair amount of work to do on it, but it's at the point
> where I think it'll benefit greatly from feedback. Ideas, complaints,
> thought, and PRs are definitely encouraged!
>
> Also, I'd like to give special thanks to Noah Hall for helping get the
> project to where it is.
>
> Austin
>
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Re: [elm-discuss] Simple way to screen-share an application written in Elm?

[Zachary Kessin]

No but that would be a really cool idea, I can think of several places that
this could be useful, for example checking that things work the same on all
browsers. Or being able to generate a sequence of events from a quickcheck
type thing and play them in a browser.

Zach
ᐧ

On Thu, Mar 2, 2017 at 5:57 PM, 'Rupert Smith' via Elm Discuss <
elm-discuss@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> Anyone tried something along these lines:
>
> The state of an application in Elm can be re-built by starting from its
> 'init' state, then replaying all messages to a given state. This is called
> event sourcing.
>
> If I am using some application written in Elm, and I want to share what I
> am doing with someone else, all I need is for them to start up the same
> application, the replay my event stream over it. Something like AMQP over
> Web Sockets could provide the transport layer.
>
> There might need to be a way on the slave application to ignore all of the
> local users events, and only update the model from the event source from
> the master. That should be fairly easy to achieve by wrapping the Program
> with one that does this.
>
> For a multi-user application, a simple but perhaps too inefficient way of
> keeping things in sync would be for all user events to be round-tripped
> through a message queue in order to put them in a sequential order that is
> the same for all participants. So local input events would not go straight
> to the update function, but be round tripped over the network. Would
> probably work well enough for a small number of users on the LAN.
>
> Just curious to know if anyone has ever experimented with Elm along these
> lines.
>
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[elm-discuss] Training for Elm

[Zachary Kessin]

Hi Everyone

If you are looking to bring Elm to your company but are a bit worried about
the learning curve then I wanted to let people know that I am developing a
training course that I can bring to your company. It is a 4 day class that
is designed to take a group of developers from having never seen elm before
to ready to run with elm

You can find details here
http://zkessin.github.io/get-finch.com/courses/#elm or email or skype me
for more information.

Thanks

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ᐧ

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Re: [elm-discuss] I wish ELM could just be used in the browser

[Zachary Kessin]

I think there was an effort to build the elm compiler in ghcjs, not sure
how far it got.

Zach
ᐧ

On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 12:05 PM, 'Rupert Smith' via Elm Discuss <
elm-discuss@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> On Sunday, January 29, 2017 at 2:40:09 AM UTC, Wyatt Benno wrote:
>>
>> Thanks all! I still do not see why ELM can never be compiled directly in
>> the browser. A V8 engine compiler for ELM?
>> After all it becomes JavaScript right?
>
>
> Clearly it can be done: http://elm-lang.org/try
>
> Or does that actually have a server side component behind it that does the
> compile?
>
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Re: [elm-discuss] Re: Collecting use cases for File, ArrayBuffer and TypedArrays/DataViews

[Zachary Kessin]

I have an app I am working on that has to upload a file to a server for
server side processing

Zach
ᐧ

On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 10:49 AM, Simon  wrote:

> Hi all,
> thought it might be worth updating this thread on my progress with S3,
> which I have now solved by adding one small hack to the Filereader
>  library (github only because
> of the native code). I have documented this at
> https://simonh1000.github.io/2016/12/elm-s3-uploads/
>
> Meanwhile, I have a new use to register. I was looking at MessagePack
>  and noted that Elm is not included in the long list
> of supported languages. I suspect that it currently could not be because of
> the lack of ArrayBuffer support?
>
> Simon
>
>
> On Wednesday, 24 August 2016 18:06:40 UTC+2, Erik Lott wrote:
>>
>> Our primary application allows photographers to upload hundreds/thousands
>> of images for portfolio display. image delivery, etc. I guess you could say
>> that our app is generally driven by image uploads. I would love to see this
>> functionality provided by Elm, rather than having to use ports...
>>
>> On Thursday, July 28, 2016 at 5:17:51 PM UTC-4, Daniel Bachler wrote:
>>>
>>> I'd love to see support for the File and ArrayBuffer Apis, and maybe
>>> TypedArrays/DataViews as well. IMHO they are an important piece of the Web
>>> Platform that is still missing in Elm.
>>>
>>> Evan suggested collecting concrete use cases to guide the design. I
>>> would like this thread to be the starting point of this effort. I would
>>> like to ask anyone who would also like this feature or who has substantial
>>> experience using either Api to add use cases or comment here so that we can
>>> try to define the user story for both apis. From there, we could decide
>>> what we would like to see supported and what, if anything, we don't need
>>> for now and suggest Elm Apis.
>>>
>>> I have two stories from a side project of mine. It is a slideshow editor
>>> that allows the user to select photos and audio files from the local
>>> system, uploads them to a web service, let's the user arrange and
>>> manipulate photos and music and then share the result with others. For
>>> this, I have two immediate use cases plus some more ideas:
>>>
>>> *Upload local files as binary blob to AWS S3*
>>>
>>> In my current, (hacky) version, I use the FileReader api (via
>>> simonH1000's filereader library) to read the content of a file into an
>>> ArrayBuffer, (represented as Json.Value in Elm) then use a modified version
>>> of elm-http to upload the content of the ArrayBuffer to an S3 storage
>>> bucket.
>>>
>>> *Download mp3 files, decode them and play them back via the AudioApi*
>>>
>>> Currently I do this with my modified http library to download the mp3
>>> file into an arraybuffer, then pass the resulting arraybuffer through a
>>> port to some native javascript that then uses the Audio Api to decode the
>>> mp3 file into a playable audiobuffer.
>>>
>>> *Parsing or otherwise processing local text files. *
>>>
>>> For another project I would be interested in reading and parsing
>>> Swagger/OpenAPI definition files and then providing a UI to compare rest
>>> apis. Since the processing will be done on simple Strings, this would only
>>> require FileReader support (specifically the readAsText method). This would
>>> already work with the FileReader library as is (though that one is not
>>> available on package.elm-lang.org because it contains native code and
>>> is not whitelisted).
>>>
>>> *TypedArrays and DataViews*
>>>
>>> I haven't worked with these yet, but I can anticipate some cases that
>>> would be interesting:
>>>
>>> *Parsing/manipulating of binary data via the ArrayBuffer api.*
>>>
>>> One case I personally would like to do with this, is to parse the Exif
>>> header of the jpeg files the user loaded from the local file system. My
>>> slideshow could then display metadata information without roundtripping to
>>> the server.
>>>
>>> *Create geometry for WebGL in the form of Vertex Buffers*
>>>
>>> *Generating sound/music by writing raw audio samples*
>>>
>>> These could then be played back via the Web audio apis.
>>>
>>>
>>> Please add your own ideas to this thread. Once we have compiled a list
>>> of use cases, we can look at the JS Apis available under the Web Platform
>>> for Files, ArrayBuffers, Typed Arrays etc. and think how these could be
>>> exposed to Elm.
>>>
>> --
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Re: [elm-discuss] A cool idea for the debugger

[Zachary Kessin]

Cool, where is the source/api for the debugger?

Zach
ᐧ

On Thu, Dec 29, 2016 at 12:09 PM, Peter Damoc <pda...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, Dec 29, 2016 at 10:41 AM, Zachary Kessin <zkes...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> It would be great if there was a button on the debugger (or better yet a
>> key combo) where you could say "Reload this page and re-run these events".
>> I find myself working a lot where I do something my code does not do
>> exactly what I want it to do so i go and change my code and do the same
>> things over again. It would be a nice thing if we could have a button that
>> would do that.
>>
>> It might take a browser extention
>>
>
> In theory, the messages are data. They could be saved in local storage.
> One could imagine a Save Messages + Replay Messages set of keyboard
> combos.
>
> no browser extension needed.
>
>
>
> --
> There is NO FATE, we are the creators.
> blog: http://damoc.ro/
>
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[elm-discuss] A cool idea for the debugger

[Zachary Kessin]

It would be great if there was a button on the debugger (or better yet a
key combo) where you could say "Reload this page and re-run these events".
I find myself working a lot where I do something my code does not do
exactly what I want it to do so i go and change my code and do the same
things over again. It would be a nice thing if we could have a button that
would do that.

It might take a browser extention

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Re: [elm-discuss] Elm static source analysis

[Zachary Kessin]

I'm just wondering, what do you expect to find with a static source
analysis tool in elm? I would think that the type checker would find most
issues, and elm-format many of the others

zach

On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 7:24 PM, Noah Hall  wrote:

> I'm working on a linter, but right now, elm-format is your best bet
> for maintaining code format. We use this with the `--validate` flag to
> ensure that all checked in code matches elm-format.
>
> On Fri, Dec 16, 2016 at 5:58 PM, Gian Giacomo Ermacora
>  wrote:
> > Hello everybody,
> >
> > my team and I are working on a complex project using Elm (today it was
> > upgraded to version 0.18).
> > Usually we run static source analysis using SonarQube and I am wondering
> if
> > there is some way or an existing plugin for that tool to support the Elm
> > source code
> >
> > Any suggestions? I can also accept to use another tool for the static
> > analysis, it is not a problem, the required scenario is that Jenkins
> must be
> > able to call this external tool that must do every night its task
> >
> > Thank you everybody in advance for suggestions and for this space.
> >
> > My best regards,
> >
> > Gian.
> >
> > --
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Re: [elm-discuss] Re: Resizeing the events panel in the debugger

[Zachary Kessin]

Thanks

Zach

On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 4:52 PM, Simon <hotbe...@gmail.com> wrote:

> https://github.com/elm-lang/virtual-dom/issues/49
>
>
> On Wednesday, 7 December 2016 13:39:40 UTC+1, Zachary Kessin wrote:
>>
>> Is it possible to resize the events panel (On the left side) of the
>> debugger, I have some events with longer names it would be nice to see a
>> bit more of the names
>>
>> Zach
>>
>> --
>> Zach Kessin
>> SquareTarget <http://squaretarget.rocks?utm_source=email-sig>
>> Twitter: @zkessin <https://twitter.com/zkessin>
>> Skype: zachkessin
>>
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Re: [elm-discuss] looking for a Director of Frontend Engineering

[Zachary Kessin]

Hey, you might want to add where in the world your team is located to your
add. The only hint in your post is that your phone# starts with +49

Zach

On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 8:57 AM, Roland Kuhn 
wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Evan suggested that I describe my predicament here, if someone knows a
> better place then please let me know!
>
> As you might know I have led the Akka  team for several
> years, so I know quite a bit about technology for distributed systems and
> backend. I’m one of the three founders of Actyx : we
> develop and sell software that makes it a lot easier to run small factories
> well—we do that by giving operators and managers the information they need,
> intuitively and when they need it, weaving data acquisition into the
> natural workflows. In other words, we lift manufacturing IT into the 21st
> century, aiming for nothing less than a reinterpretation of “production
> quality software” (pun intended). We are looking for someone matching my
> qualification on the frontend, someone who has created relevant tech and
> has enough experience to know exactly how to set up the frontend part of
> our engineering team (architecture, testing, CI, etc.). What we are
> attempting to do is definitely non-trivial, we are looking into having the
> mobile devices on the shop-floor coordinate in swarm-like fashion (e.g.
> using CRDTs) in order to get around the requirement of having to install
> dedicated server infrastructure in the factory.
>
> The reason I am exploring the Elm angle is that all knowledgeable frontend
> engineers I know have pointed towards Elm as really interesting. Coming
> from Scala I am certainly in favor of using strongly typed languages,
> although my frontend knowledge in general is too shallow to prescribe a
> certain technology stack—that is precisely what we need the Director of
> Frontend Engineering
>  for.
>
> Thanks a lot for reading,
>
> Roland
>
>
>
>
> Dr. Roland Kuhn
> *CTO — Actyx AG*
> rol...@actyx.io
> +49 89 9439 7400-3
>
>
> --
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Re: [elm-discuss] What Elm needs to move forward

[Zachary Kessin]

Some of this makes me a bit twichy. I think one of Elm's great advantages
is that while its type system is good it is also simple. Having tried
haskell and quickly drowned I am in favor of keeping the types as simple as
possible

Zach


On Thu, Nov 24, 2016 at 1:11 PM, John Orford  wrote:

> Totally agree with that also.
>
> I would love a underscore or lo-dash situation where libraries could be
> used as petri dishes for future language features... or just doing cool
> stuff : )
>
> Perhaps, you could add deprecable new features, which could only be
> included in experimental packages or something...
>
> If the libraries or features take make sense, keep them, if not everyone
> is aware of that they can be axed...
>
> On Thu, 24 Nov 2016 at 12:04 Oliver Searle-Barnes 
> wrote:
>
>> Something that I feel isn't acknowledged is that it's ok to have a
>> language with more advanced features for library authors than library
>> consumers. I don't see that it follows that having more advanced features
>> makes the language harder to use for beginners (I'd argue the opposite
>> even). I do see your point though that allowing more powerful abstractions
>> and maintaining ease of use is perhaps something that more powerful FP
>> languages have failed (or not attempted even) to find and careful and
>> patient thought is required.
>>
>>
>> On Thursday, 24 November 2016 11:45:38 UTC+1, John Orford wrote:
>>
>> Oliver,
>>
>> I understand. But... we are swimming in a sea of imperative programmers.
>> A lot of FP is not obviously better for them.
>>
>> From my POV, this is Elm's greatest strength and weakness.
>>
>> It would be so easy to be a PureScript and corner a hardcore niche, where
>> 'power' is everything.
>>
>> Elm has a larger goal - to bring FP to the masses.
>>
>> I am sure abstractions will come in good time, but they will be added
>> carefully with a lot of thought.
>>
>> So... I totally understand, but there's not a lack of 'powerful' FP out
>> there, there's a lack of FP for the masses.
>>
>> This is extremely challenging in all sorts of ways, and an open question
>> of whether it's even possible.
>>
>> But this I believe is what Elm is aiming to do.
>>
>> Who knows whether it will fail or not. No one really knows. I know it's
>> worth a shot though!
>>
>> John
>>
>> On Thu, 24 Nov 2016 at 11:34 Oliver Searle-Barnes 
>> wrote:
>>
>> I'm definitely still in the process of moving my thinking into a
>> functional approach (currently working through Programming Haskell and 
>> Bartosz
>> Milewski 's Category Theory
>> series on youtube, both recommended by other Elmers so thanks!). The lack
>> of abstraction in Elm does seem like a major stumbling point at the moment,
>> the problems I mentioned above are abundantly obvious for anyone that
>> starts to use it (I say this with big love for Elm). I want more people to
>> be able to enjoy Elm but these issues make it very difficult for beginners
>> or even mid-level developers to get going quickly.
>>
>>
>> On Thursday, 24 November 2016 11:00:36 UTC+1, Peter Damoc wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 24, 2016 at 11:17 AM, Oliver Searle-Barnes > > wrote:
>>
>> The fact remains though that I don't feel I can offer a sound
>> justification as to why it's far more complicated to do these things in
>> Elm. Elm strives to be easy for users to understand, in this area it is
>> decidedly more complicated than the existing alternatives.
>>
>>
>> The class of problems you described is precisely the class of problems
>> that Object Oriented Programming solves easily.
>> It is the class of problems where, as a library developer, you provide
>> and API and you allow the client to do multiple implementation of an
>> interface, (e.g. the interface of a web-component or the interface of a
>> debounceable app).
>>
>> Implementing something that solves this issue is non-trivial because it
>> can be a source of chaos (complexity).
>> Approaching the Expression Problem
>>  Elm chose defer
>> solving it for later implementing only a few practical facilities like
>> toString (allows extension of cases without recompilation)
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> There is NO FATE, we are the creators.
>> blog: http://damoc.ro/
>>
>> --
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Re: [elm-discuss] What do people thing about the idea of Elm Remote Conf

[Zachary Kessin]

I forgot about those :)



Zach

On Thu, Nov 24, 2016 at 11:18 AM, Peter Damoc <pda...@gmail.com> wrote:

> How would this be different from the current Elm Remote Meetups?
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 24, 2016 at 10:56 AM, Zachary Kessin <zkes...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I know Charles Max Wood of Ruby Rouges (and other podcasts) has been
>> doing a lot of remote conferences. I was thinking we should approach him to
>> do Elm Remote Conf. Would others be interested?
>>
>> What kind of content would you like to see. I would have 2 goals
>>
>> 1) Get speakers who have never given a conference talk before
>> 2) Get more advanced talk
>>
>> Obviously not every talk would have to check both boxes.
>>
>> --
>> Zach Kessin
>> SquareTarget <http://squaretarget.rocks?utm_source=email-sig>
>> Twitter: @zkessin <https://twitter.com/zkessin>
>> Skype: zachkessin
>>
>> --
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>>
>
>
>
> --
> There is NO FATE, we are the creators.
> blog: http://damoc.ro/
>
> --
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Re: [elm-discuss] What Elm needs to move forward

[Zachary Kessin]

I think we are only differing on the details. We could use talks /
blogposts on all of those things. If you want to write a guest blogpost on
any of the above I would be happy to put it on my blog.


Zach

On Thu, Nov 24, 2016 at 9:31 AM, Peter Damoc <pda...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I beg to differ.
> There are a lot of intro talks to Elm syntax and some of them touch a
> little bit on some libraries but we are doing very poorly in addressing
> important concerns like styling, persistence or deployment.
> Of course, one might argue that this falls outside of Elm concerns but
> should it be outside of Elm's concerns?
> Are we trying to build reliable webapps or are we trying to reliably
> generate html?
>
> The domain covered by CSS is virtually unexplored in Elm. It is taken as a
> given that people will solve this on their own using previous knowledge or
> by learning CSS somewhere else.
> There are a few libraries that attempt to address this but most of them
> are bindings to CSS with a little bit of type safety thrown in and do a
> very poor job at documenting use-cases.
>
> The topic of reusable components is still in limbo.
> If someone asks me how would they do a dropdown in Elm I still don't know
> what to say (other than implement it from scratch).
> Have the sortable-table solution and the auto-complete examples been
> imitated? Do we have a large pool of reusable UI elements?
>
> The topic of build tools and end-to-end development, again... it rests on
> people reusing outside knowledge.
> There is very little documentation on producing a deliverable.
>
> Were do we want to be in 3 years time?
> How would we want Elm to have changed the webapp domain?
> What would be the less than desirable future that we might risk ending up
> in?
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 24, 2016 at 8:30 AM, Zachary Kessin <zkes...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Glad you liked the blog post.
>>
>> I thinkw e are doing well on the intro talks and case studies part of the
>> Elm story. But there are other stories to tell around elm that might appeal
>> to the developer who has been doing elm already for 6 months.
>>
>>
>> Zach
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 24, 2016 at 8:04 AM, Peter Damoc <pda...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I've seen a short blogpost by Zach
>>> http://get-finch.com/2016/11/23/what_elm_needs_to_to_move_forward.html
>>> and it got me curious.
>>>
>>> What do the rest of you think Elm needs to move forward faster?
>>> (it is already moving forward and will continue to do so but... maybe
>>> some things can accelerate the process.)
>>>
>>> I've seen also this comment:
>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/elm/comments/5dox3b/reddit_uses_elm
>>> _for_internal_apps/da6cyu9/?st=ivvxoob1=4476d8ec
>>> and I think the point made there is relevant.
>>>
>>> I think Elm needs a common story around some kind of web-framework.
>>>
>>> With one framework that multiple entities use and improve it is easier
>>> to build shared ground and shared knowledge and this gives the impression
>>> of stability and predictability. In theory, it would be easier to find
>>> multiple developers with the same subset of know-how.
>>>
>>> Attempting to implement such a framework would also make salient the
>>> issues that still remain (CSS) and will stress the tools (elm-format,
>>> elm-test) enough to push them forward faster.
>>>
>>> Constrains liberate.
>>>
>>> What do you think?
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> There is NO FATE, we are the creators.
>>> blog: http://damoc.ro/
>>>
>>> --
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>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Zach Kessin
>> SquareTarget <http://squaretarget.rocks?utm_source=email-sig>
>> Twitter: @zkessin <https://twitter.com/zkessin>
>> Skype: zachkessin
>>
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>>
>
>
>
> --
> There is NO FATE, we are the creators.
> blog: htt

Re: [elm-discuss] Unpublishing a package

[Zachary Kessin]

> What about a way to hide packages during search (unless you ask for
them), but still be available to download?
>

I like this solution

Zach
ᐧ

On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 4:35 AM, Max Goldstein 
wrote:

> What about a way to hide packages during search (unless you ask for them),
> but still be available to download?
>
> --
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Re: [elm-discuss] Re: RSS Feed for Elm Packages

[Zachary Kessin]

The RSS to twitter bot could be put toether in about an hour on Zapier, I
would be happy to do it, I was thinking about starting a feature on my blog
http://get-finch.com called "Elm package of the week"

Zach
ᐧ

On Wed, Oct 26, 2016 at 6:50 PM, <gil...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I think that's a great idea. Currently I think a few different people on
> Twitter are sort of doing this manually. Speaking of which, if the feed
> happens, an RSS -> Twitter bot might be good too.
>
> On Wednesday, October 26, 2016 at 4:52:55 AM UTC-6, Zachary Kessin wrote:
>>
>> Just a random thought, might it be interesting to have a RSS Feed from
>> the elm package library. Something to show new packages and updates etc. I
>> figure it would be nice to have a way to know what is new and interesting
>> in the community
>>
>> Zach
>>
>> --
>> Zach Kessin
>> SquareTarget <http://squaretarget.rocks?utm_source=email-sig>
>> Twitter: @zkessin <https://twitter.com/zkessin>
>> Skype: zachkessin
>> ᐧ
>>
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[elm-discuss] RSS Feed for Elm Packages

[Zachary Kessin]

Just a random thought, might it be interesting to have a RSS Feed from the
elm package library. Something to show new packages and updates etc. I
figure it would be nice to have a way to know what is new and interesting
in the community

Zach

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ᐧ

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Re: [elm-discuss] Elm Test building custom generators

[Zachary Kessin]

Yes I did

Zach
ᐧ

On Mon, Oct 17, 2016 at 2:31 AM, Max Goldstein 
wrote:

> Fuzz.map4, which I think was only added in 2.1.0 so that's why Zachary
> didn't see it in August.
>
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Re: [elm-discuss] Re: No Runtime Exceptions - Still not computing

[Zachary Kessin]

Putting on my  Erlang Developer hat (Moto: Let it Crash) I look at it this
way there are two kinds .of errors, normal errors an exceptional errors.
Lets say you want to go to the store to buy a dozen eggs. There are a few
possible outcomes here

1) You get the eggs
2) You can't buy the eggs (Store is out of stock/ no money etc)
3) You can't get to the store because of some kind of Force Major. (IE The
store burned down, the police have blocked the street due to an abandoned
bag etc)

The elm type system with a Maybe / Result will handle cases #1 and #2. As
for case 3, that is a little harder but can still be handled.

Or to take your examples


   - Invalid function args
   - Malformed JSON
   - Server down

The first one will be handled by the type system. If you try to pass an
invalid argument to a function the code will not compile. Obviously there
are ways to take run time data and test for validity. You can imagine a
function like "parseRomanNumeral : String -> Maybe Int" which takes a
string and attempts to treat it as a roman numeral. But the Maybe is there
for the case where its not.

As for the Malformed JSON then you have enforced error handling code.

In the case of a server down. (As Joe Armstrong said "The best type system
will not prevent your server from being struck by lightning" ). Then you
get a timeout error which you can handle in some useful way




ᐧ

On Sat, Oct 8, 2016 at 5:03 PM, Martin Janiczek  wrote:

> Dave, how do you think about JavaScript Promises? Where you code for the
> happy path (the chain of Promise.resolve().then().then().then()), any of
> which can throw, and have a .catch() handler that catches whatever the
> thrown value was and does something about it.
> The Elm Result type is very similar to this.
>
> Promise.resolve(myValue) ~= Ok myValue
> Promise.reject(myErrorData) ~= Err myErrorData
> promise.then(fn) ~= myResult.andThen(fn) or myResult.map(fn)
> promise.catch(fn) ~= case myResult of Err x -> fn x
>
>
> Again, a specific example would help. Elm programs are not written the way
> C, C#, Java programs are written. Clojure is closer but because of Java
> interop reasons hasn't adopted much of the Maybe / Result / ... goodness
> and instead has nils like Java has. In Elm the erorrs are explicit (like
> you say, part of the return type). Read: http://blog.jenkster.
> com/2016/06/how-elm-slays-a-ui-antipattern.html for how Elm solves the
> Server Down error you mentioned.
>
> Malformed JSON is also reported not with exceptions but with Result.
> Either you get your value in Ok, or helpful error message in Err. You have
> to handle both cases, it doesn't propagate up, it doesn't throw a runtime
> exception, the user sees what you decided to show him in that scenario.
> Essentially the Elm compiler tells you "This could blow up - you told me
> what to do if the JSON is OK, but what if it is not?"
>
> On Friday, October 7, 2016 at 10:05:50 PM UTC+2, Dave Ford wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 7, 2016 at 11:33 AM, Kasey Speakman 
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Then at the edge of the application, I can deal with the errors
>>>
>> Yes. This is what I am trying to figure out. How to deal with that class
>> of errors at the "edge".
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> --
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Re: [elm-discuss] Functional programming, or why should I use Elm instead of vanilla javaScript?

[Zachary Kessin]

*And all this stuff about immutability, can be easily achieved in plain
javaScript. Eventually is Elm code will be converted to plain javaScript
and not vice versa, so that's mean you can do all that stuff in javaScript
but for sure there are some features in javaScript which you can't do in
Elm. And using Elm you are limited with one pattern. And what if it's not
enough or it's not best solution in some case, what than? For example right
now I'm working on new CMS for one of my projects, on React/GraphQL/Nodejs
and hybrid storage MongoDb with mySQL. I would like to use this pattern in
some cases but I just can't use it everywhere, so that's mean I shouldn't
use Elm?*

This is true, there are some things you can do in JavaScript that you can't
do in Elm, but this is the key point, that is a good thing! By definition
anything you can do in elm you can do in Javascript. But the benefits of
elm is that it will not let you do things that are likely to cause
problems. I have been a web developer for 20+ years now and I can say that
if someone can find a way to do something stupid in development then they
will!

Good coding in raw javascript requires a large amount of developer
discipline, you must be careful all the time. Languages like elm take that
job from the human and put it in the computer!


ᐧ

On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 10:27 PM, Duane Johnson 
wrote:

>
> On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 11:43 AM, Sarkis Arutiunian 
> wrote:
>
>> For example right now I'm working on new CMS for one of my projects, on
>> React/GraphQL/Nodejs and hybrid storage MongoDb with mySQL. I would like to
>> use this pattern in some cases but I just can't use it everywhere, so
>> that's mean I shouldn't use Elm?
>
>
> What are you hoping to do in Elm that you currently can't? Is it the
> server side portion?
>
> There was a post earlier today by Charles Scalfani that piqued my
> interest. He is using an Effect Manager to implement a postgresql database
> access library for server-side Elm: https://github.com/
> panosoft?utf8=%E2%9C%93=elm
>
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Re: [elm-discuss] Re: meaning of ![] ?

[Zachary Kessin]

The Bang `!` operator takes a list of commands to run. So if you don't want
to run a command, pass an empty list.

Zach
ᐧ

On Mon, Oct 3, 2016 at 1:50 PM, Magnus Rundberget  wrote:

> http://faq.elm-community.org/17.html#what-is-this---construct-in-the-code
>
> + when using it with an empty list it would return (model, Cmd.none).
>
> -magnus
>
>
>
> On Monday, 3 October 2016 12:43:41 UTC+2, António Ramos wrote:
>>
>> hello
>> sorry my simple question
>> NoOp ->
>> model ! []
>>
>> what does ![] mean in the above code?
>>
>> regards
>>
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Re: [elm-discuss] Re: What languages do you write your back-ends in?

[Zachary Kessin]

I don't know much about the MLFE project, beyond that it exists

Zach
ᐧ

On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 5:03 PM, OvermindDL1 <overmind...@gmail.com> wrote:

> There is an mlfe (ML on the BEAM) project too, could much more easily have
> elm build to that as a more easily done intermediate step?
>
>
> On Wednesday, September 14, 2016 at 5:08:00 AM UTC-6, Zachary Kessin wrote:
>>
>> If you want something way out there on the beam there is also "erlog"
>> which is a prolog that runs in an erlang process. It is by Robert Virding
>> who also wrote lfe and erllua as well as was one of the creators of erlang
>>
>> If we ever want to do an elm -> beam compiler I would say we would want
>> him on the project
>>
>> Zach
>> ᐧ
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 6:57 PM, OvermindDL1 <overm...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm using Elixir as well currently, and no, its type system kind of
>>> sucks, however you can enforce both types and even values within on
>>> function calls via matchspecs and 'when' clauses (which are very simple and
>>> succinct).
>>>
>>> However, Elixir is an immutable functional language and its matchspecs
>>> (and dialyzer with typespecs) do make up for a lot of its type issues.
>>>
>>> Another however, Elixir is just a normal BEAM language and
>>> inter-operates with any other BEAM language, of which there are others:
>>> * Erlang:  The original BEAM language, very prolog'y, untyped too
>>> * lfe:  Lisp-Flavoured Erlang, basically just Lisp, macro's and all, but
>>> immutably on the BEAM.
>>> * mlfe:  A brand new BEAM language, basically ML, but on the BEAM, very
>>> strongly typed like OCaml is and such.  Due to the way the BEAM operates it
>>> is hard to tell what types messages should be but they are still working on
>>> it.  I have hope for this.
>>> * And a few minor others like Erlang2 and such
>>>
>>> So Elixir for now, but I expect to likely be using mlfe in the future
>>> (with Elixir).
>>>
>>> BEAM/EVM is just too nice to not use, regardless of the language (I've
>>> used Erlang for almost ten years, prolog syntax is... interesting, but
>>> understandable).
>>>
>>> Elixir just makes the BEAM/EVM significantly nicer to use
>>> (python'ish/ruby'ish in its ease of use, but without ruby's warts, or speed
>>> hit).
>>>
>>>
>>> On Saturday, September 10, 2016 at 1:41:22 AM UTC-6, Mario Sangiorgio
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hello,
>>>>
>>>> I was wondering what programming language you use to implement the
>>>> back-end for your Elm single page web app.
>>>>
>>>> Reading around I see that the Elm/Elixir combo is popular but for how
>>>> much I think BEAM is an awesome VM I'm a bit sceptical due to Elixir being
>>>> a dynamic language. How much do you miss the compiler when you write Elixir
>>>> code?
>>>>
>>>> If you're not using Elixir, to what do you use? I played a bit with F#
>>>> (using Suave.io) and I think it's quite nice.
>>>>
>>>> Now I'm in the mood of learning something new so I'd like to know what
>>>> you use and maybe get an idea of what to look at next.
>>>>
>>>> Mario
>>>>
>>> --
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>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Zach Kessin
>> SquareTarget <http://squaretarget.rocks?utm_source=email-sig>
>> Twitter: @zkessin <https://twitter.com/zkessin>
>> Skype: zachkessin
>>
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Re: [elm-discuss] Re: What languages do you write your back-ends in?

[Zachary Kessin]

If you want something way out there on the beam there is also "erlog" which
is a prolog that runs in an erlang process. It is by Robert Virding who
also wrote lfe and erllua as well as was one of the creators of erlang

If we ever want to do an elm -> beam compiler I would say we would want him
on the project

Zach
ᐧ

On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 6:57 PM, OvermindDL1  wrote:

> I'm using Elixir as well currently, and no, its type system kind of sucks,
> however you can enforce both types and even values within on function calls
> via matchspecs and 'when' clauses (which are very simple and succinct).
>
> However, Elixir is an immutable functional language and its matchspecs
> (and dialyzer with typespecs) do make up for a lot of its type issues.
>
> Another however, Elixir is just a normal BEAM language and inter-operates
> with any other BEAM language, of which there are others:
> * Erlang:  The original BEAM language, very prolog'y, untyped too
> * lfe:  Lisp-Flavoured Erlang, basically just Lisp, macro's and all, but
> immutably on the BEAM.
> * mlfe:  A brand new BEAM language, basically ML, but on the BEAM, very
> strongly typed like OCaml is and such.  Due to the way the BEAM operates it
> is hard to tell what types messages should be but they are still working on
> it.  I have hope for this.
> * And a few minor others like Erlang2 and such
>
> So Elixir for now, but I expect to likely be using mlfe in the future
> (with Elixir).
>
> BEAM/EVM is just too nice to not use, regardless of the language (I've
> used Erlang for almost ten years, prolog syntax is... interesting, but
> understandable).
>
> Elixir just makes the BEAM/EVM significantly nicer to use
> (python'ish/ruby'ish in its ease of use, but without ruby's warts, or speed
> hit).
>
>
> On Saturday, September 10, 2016 at 1:41:22 AM UTC-6, Mario Sangiorgio
> wrote:
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> I was wondering what programming language you use to implement the
>> back-end for your Elm single page web app.
>>
>> Reading around I see that the Elm/Elixir combo is popular but for how
>> much I think BEAM is an awesome VM I'm a bit sceptical due to Elixir being
>> a dynamic language. How much do you miss the compiler when you write Elixir
>> code?
>>
>> If you're not using Elixir, to what do you use? I played a bit with F#
>> (using Suave.io) and I think it's quite nice.
>>
>> Now I'm in the mood of learning something new so I'd like to know what
>> you use and maybe get an idea of what to look at next.
>>
>> Mario
>>
> --
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[elm-discuss] Charting library for Elm

[Zachary Kessin]

HI

We are looking to do some more robust charting (D3 style with elm) are
there any good packages out there. Most of the ones out there only seem to
do line and pie charts. Is there something more advanced out there?

Zach

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ᐧ

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Re: [elm-discuss] Building a UI component library: the Elm compiler

[Zachary Kessin]

I may do that

--Zach
ᐧ

On Thu, Sep 1, 2016 at 11:17 PM, OvermindDL1 <overmind...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Well get to PR'ing into `elm-mdl`, or make a new one based on `elm-parts`
> (which is what `elm-mdl` is built off of)?  ^.^
>
>
> On Thursday, September 1, 2016 at 12:22:31 PM UTC-6, Zachary Kessin wrote:
>>
>> I for one would love to see a really nice nestable component library
>> somewhat similar to the good parts of ExtJS in elm. The problem is that I
>> think how to do that with a great API and in a type safe way is probably
>> not as obvious as I think it is. I think it would need to have someone put
>> 12-18 months of work into it to get it going.
>>
>> I at least can not do that even if Ihad the skills
>>
>> Zach
>> ᐧ
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 1, 2016 at 8:06 PM, Peter Damoc <pda...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I'll venture a personal opinion regarding your 4 questions:
>>>
>>> 1. Elm compiles to something like ECMAScript3 so... no modules in the
>>> output. Also, the JS output is designed to me more like an assembly kind of
>>> thing and it is planned to maybe someday move beyond JS. I don't think that
>>> Elm output was designed to be used as a library from JS.
>>>
>>> 2. This is an issue for the minimizer. You can import your icons module,
>>> use the 3 you need and the minimizer should remove the ones you are not
>>> using. In other words, currently, Elm will include everything but it will
>>> do it in such a way that tools like Closure compiler can remove the unused
>>> stuff.
>>>
>>> 3. Hot reloading / Hot swapping used to work in the old elm-reactor and
>>> will make a comeback RealSoonNow™.
>>>
>>> 4. Elm favors doing things the right way and CSS is a very complex topic
>>> so I guess it got on the back-burner. I have tried to start discussions on
>>> this subject before and there was simply not enough interest. There is a
>>> huge opportunity to do something interesting in that domain but that would
>>> involve designing a very large scale API and I've lost hope that we will
>>> see this in a foreseeable future. There is however an opportunity here: you
>>> can start a discussion about an approach that you might find
>>> intriguing/useful.
>>>
>>> Now, considering the title you picked for this topic, I want to point
>>> something else out.
>>> Elm doesn't have an official approach to building something like an UI
>>> toolkit (frequently used components library).
>>> This in itself is a very complex topic with a lot of moving parts that
>>> might have also ended up on the back-burner.
>>>
>>> The topic of components keeps resurfacing quite frequently and what I've
>>> seen so far is mostly a downplay of the issue.
>>>
>>> People who want to implement webapps with simple, CSS only,
>>> components/widgets can use an external CSS and classes in elm-lang/html.
>>> People who want more sophisticated components/widgets are out of luck.
>>> Either they need to use a hack like elm-parts that uses techniques
>>> actively discouraged by Evan or they submit to a world of boilerplate.
>>> I even went so far as to create an example of this boilerplate:
>>> https://github.com/pdamoc/elm-boilerplate-example
>>> It generated a small discussion on Slack but... no other effect.
>>>
>>> I guess people are using Elm to implement either CSS only kind of
>>> webapps with dynamic content served by Elm OR they have figured out how to
>>> integrate sliders, date pickers, light-boxes, dropdowns and other amenities
>>> available in the JS driven toolkits (I could not figure that out as I don't
>>> have a JS background).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Sep 1, 2016 at 6:49 PM, suttlecommakevin <suttleco...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> *Forgive me if I have missed something or am asking about something
>>>> that's been reposted frequently.*
>>>>
>>>> Let's use a simple example: a custom set of SVG icons, for use in
>>>> Buttons.
>>>> Here are my rookie questions:
>>>>
>>>> *Is the Elm compiler: *
>>>>
>>>>1. aware of ES6 modules?
>>>>- asking this because I'm not sure how one would consume these in
>>>>   an otherwise Elm-unaware env.
>>>>   2. able to do code splitting?
>>>>   - The use case here being: I don't want a user to have to
&

Re: [elm-discuss] Building a UI component library: the Elm compiler

[Zachary Kessin]

I for one would love to see a really nice nestable component library
somewhat similar to the good parts of ExtJS in elm. The problem is that I
think how to do that with a great API and in a type safe way is probably
not as obvious as I think it is. I think it would need to have someone put
12-18 months of work into it to get it going.

I at least can not do that even if Ihad the skills

Zach
ᐧ

On Thu, Sep 1, 2016 at 8:06 PM, Peter Damoc  wrote:

> I'll venture a personal opinion regarding your 4 questions:
>
> 1. Elm compiles to something like ECMAScript3 so... no modules in the
> output. Also, the JS output is designed to me more like an assembly kind of
> thing and it is planned to maybe someday move beyond JS. I don't think that
> Elm output was designed to be used as a library from JS.
>
> 2. This is an issue for the minimizer. You can import your icons module,
> use the 3 you need and the minimizer should remove the ones you are not
> using. In other words, currently, Elm will include everything but it will
> do it in such a way that tools like Closure compiler can remove the unused
> stuff.
>
> 3. Hot reloading / Hot swapping used to work in the old elm-reactor and
> will make a comeback RealSoonNow™.
>
> 4. Elm favors doing things the right way and CSS is a very complex topic
> so I guess it got on the back-burner. I have tried to start discussions on
> this subject before and there was simply not enough interest. There is a
> huge opportunity to do something interesting in that domain but that would
> involve designing a very large scale API and I've lost hope that we will
> see this in a foreseeable future. There is however an opportunity here: you
> can start a discussion about an approach that you might find
> intriguing/useful.
>
> Now, considering the title you picked for this topic, I want to point
> something else out.
> Elm doesn't have an official approach to building something like an UI
> toolkit (frequently used components library).
> This in itself is a very complex topic with a lot of moving parts that
> might have also ended up on the back-burner.
>
> The topic of components keeps resurfacing quite frequently and what I've
> seen so far is mostly a downplay of the issue.
>
> People who want to implement webapps with simple, CSS only,
> components/widgets can use an external CSS and classes in elm-lang/html.
> People who want more sophisticated components/widgets are out of luck.
> Either they need to use a hack like elm-parts that uses techniques
> actively discouraged by Evan or they submit to a world of boilerplate.
> I even went so far as to create an example of this boilerplate:
> https://github.com/pdamoc/elm-boilerplate-example
> It generated a small discussion on Slack but... no other effect.
>
> I guess people are using Elm to implement either CSS only kind of webapps
> with dynamic content served by Elm OR they have figured out how to
> integrate sliders, date pickers, light-boxes, dropdowns and other amenities
> available in the JS driven toolkits (I could not figure that out as I don't
> have a JS background).
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 1, 2016 at 6:49 PM, suttlecommakevin <
> suttlecommake...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> *Forgive me if I have missed something or am asking about something
>> that's been reposted frequently.*
>>
>> Let's use a simple example: a custom set of SVG icons, for use in Buttons.
>> Here are my rookie questions:
>>
>> *Is the Elm compiler: *
>>
>>1. aware of ES6 modules?
>>- asking this because I'm not sure how one would consume these in an
>>   otherwise Elm-unaware env.
>>   2. able to do code splitting?
>>   - The use case here being: I don't want a user to have to download
>>   100 SVG icons in one JS file if there are only 3 being used on a page.
>>3. able to do hot reloading?
>>   - Just curious here
>>4. ready to start supporting CSS as a 1st class-citizen?
>>   - Seems like if Elm is the front-end language of the future, it
>>   can't be missing 1/3 of the stack.
>>   - I am aware of Richard and others' efforts, and am willing to help
>>   .
>>
>>
>> Let's just leave it at that for now. Curious what the responses will be.
>> Thanks.
>>
>> --
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>
>
>
> --
> There is NO FATE, we are the creators.
> blog: http://damoc.ro/
>
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Re: [elm-discuss] Elm shell aliases

[Zachary Kessin]

I just have all my normal commands in a makefile. That makefile also builds
some Erlang and a few other things

Zach
ᐧ

On Sat, Aug 27, 2016 at 3:58 AM, suttlecommakevin <
suttlecommake...@gmail.com> wrote:

> What would it do? I know it accepts all the default input params for
> things like `npm init`. Would it do the same?
>
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[elm-discuss] Elm Training class Berlin Sept 19-21

[Zachary Kessin]

Hi Everyone!

I wanted to let people know that I am going to be teaching a 3 day training
class on Elm in Berlin on September 19-21. So for folks in and around
Berlin who may have wanted to introduce elm at your company, this might be
a great way to get everyone up to speed.

You can find details At Elm Training Berlin


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[elm-discuss] Experienced Elm & Erlang dev looking for work

[Zachary Kessin]

Hi All

I have been doing elm development since last November and have been doing
web development for 20 years. I am looking for a contract building apps in
Elm. I have also been using Erlang for about 5 years and doing web
development for about 20

Zach


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Re: [elm-discuss] Re: elm first impressions (and frustrations)

[Zachary Kessin]

That would be amazing.

I would settle for having a way to export all the ajax calls from a program
(and ports) with what kind of data they expect. So you could say
that there can be a post to /path/to/resource with a json of this shape.

That alone would let me write a test on the server side (or
quickcheck property)  to validate that invariant.

Zach

ᐧ

On Mon, Aug 1, 2016 at 10:57 AM, Peter Damoc <pda...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Zach,
>
> Of course being backend agnostic is an amazing thing.
> That being said, I would love to have a backend that could be implemented
> in Elm and one full-stack solution that has perfect impedance match.
> This way, the data models can be shared between the backend and the
> front-end and with a little bit of convention, the whole Json encoding and
> decoding could disappear (it could be handled automatically by some
> library).
> Just imagine a workflow where you change one model working in the front
> end and the compiler throws and error that the back-end does not implement
> what you need.
> A user learning Elm for the front-end could also leverage his/her
> knowledge to move from front-end to full-stack.
> This could be huge for freelance lone developers.
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 1, 2016 at 10:32 AM, Zachary Kessin <zkes...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I think that being backend agnostic was / is a good choice. When I
>> started SquareTarget http://squaretarget.rocks I was able to reach for
>> Erlang/OTP and WebMachine on the backend, which is a stack that I know well
>> and I know how it performs under stress etc. Others have used Ruby, Elixir
>> or Haskell. While getting the benefits of Elm on the frontend.
>>
>> As for having to context switch between erlang and elm. That is an issue,
>> on the plus side, the Elm Architecture and an Erlang gen_server are pretty
>> similar in how they do things. But the two languages are quite frankly very
>> different, in that they were both built to solve a problem, but two very
>> different problems. Elm wants to catch all errors in the type system.
>> Erlang was built on the assuption that there are some errors that can only
>> be caught in real time and in an external process such as a server hardware
>> failure.
>>
>> Honestly, I think the actual problems being solved by frontend code and
>> backend code make the idea of a whole stack language not a really good one.
>>
>> Zach
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ᐧ
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 1, 2016 at 9:06 AM, Peter Damoc <pda...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Neil,
>>>
>>> Few comments on the issues you've raised:
>>>
>>> 1. Elm plans to go to the server side too. There are already
>>> proof-of-concept that allows one to use Elm server-side and with the advent
>>> of 0.18 (next version) we might see official support for that. Also, one
>>> could use something like Horizon and bypass the server-side completely.
>>> 2. Actually, people who had success introducing Elm into production
>>> started within a very small corner of the app and gradually implemented
>>> more and more in Elm. You can read the latest blog post
>>> <http://elm-lang.org/blog/how-to-use-elm-at-work> that talks more about
>>> this.
>>> 3. What would qualify as a moderately complex example? To me, ToDoMVC is
>>> moderately complex. Also, you could find more moderately complex stuff   on
>>> builtwithelm.co
>>> 4. Interop from JS to Elm is beautifully simple through the mechanism of
>>> ports. Basically you can push messages into the Elm app. Of course, Elm
>>> does not allow direct state mutation of its program because that would
>>> defeat some of its purpose.
>>> 5. There was a proof of concept for a native version of Elm via
>>> react-native but you are right, there is no native-app framework in Elm
>>> yet.
>>> 6. redux was inspired by Elm Architecture so... if you use that, you are
>>> already getting closer to Elm.
>>>
>>> Elm is not ready for the early-majority yet, I'm not sure it is really
>>> in the realm of the early adopter either. Most of us here might be
>>> innovators and there are a set of advantages that come with that but also
>>> disadvantages. :)
>>>
>>> So, if you're looking for a full-stack battle proven solution, you have
>>> come to the wrong place.
>>> If you are looking for something to take some of the pain of web
>>> development away, you might be in the right place.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Aug 1, 

Re: [elm-discuss] "I know what I'm doing"-syntax and helpful error messages for string interpolation

[Zachary Kessin]

I dislike the idea of any syntax that will let me do something dumb and let
me "Fix it later" because that generally never happens

Zach
ᐧ

On Sun, Jul 31, 2016 at 11:15 PM, Filip Haglund 
wrote:

> Keeping with the helpfullness of the compiler, having warnings when doing
> scetchy things with string interpolation (issue #905 on Github
> ) could be useful.
> This could be warnings about building urls's from variables that might be
> user input. It could also be about building SQL queries, or HTML.
>
> I suggest having some basic checks in the compiler for these areas where
> special care should be taken. This would generate warnings, assuming it is
> a mistake until proven otherwise.
>
> `"http://example.com/profile/{{userdata}}/"` would generate a warning.
> `"http://example.com/profile/{{[url] userdata }}/"`would not.
>
> `"My name is {{[url] userdata}}."`would generate a warning.
> `"My name is {{userdata}}."`would not.
>
> `"Check out my blog."` would
> generate a warning.
> `"Check out my blog."` would
> generate a warning.
> `"Check out my blog."`
> would not.
>
> `"Select * from users where username = '{{userdata}}'"` would generate a
> warning.
> `"Select * from users where username = '{{[html, url] userdata}}'"`
> would generate a warning.
> `"Select * from users where username = '{{[sql] userdata}}'"` would not.
>
> Exact syntax is not important right now. I want to know what the community
> thinks about the idea of "I know what I'm doing"-annotated string
> interpolation.
>
> --
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Re: [elm-discuss] Re: elm first impressions (and frustrations)

[Zachary Kessin]

I think that being backend agnostic was / is a good choice. When I started
SquareTarget http://squaretarget.rocks I was able to reach for Erlang/OTP
and WebMachine on the backend, which is a stack that I know well and I know
how it performs under stress etc. Others have used Ruby, Elixir or Haskell.
While getting the benefits of Elm on the frontend.

As for having to context switch between erlang and elm. That is an issue,
on the plus side, the Elm Architecture and an Erlang gen_server are pretty
similar in how they do things. But the two languages are quite frankly very
different, in that they were both built to solve a problem, but two very
different problems. Elm wants to catch all errors in the type system.
Erlang was built on the assuption that there are some errors that can only
be caught in real time and in an external process such as a server hardware
failure.

Honestly, I think the actual problems being solved by frontend code and
backend code make the idea of a whole stack language not a really good one.

Zach






ᐧ

On Mon, Aug 1, 2016 at 9:06 AM, Peter Damoc  wrote:

> Hi Neil,
>
> Few comments on the issues you've raised:
>
> 1. Elm plans to go to the server side too. There are already
> proof-of-concept that allows one to use Elm server-side and with the advent
> of 0.18 (next version) we might see official support for that. Also, one
> could use something like Horizon and bypass the server-side completely.
> 2. Actually, people who had success introducing Elm into production
> started within a very small corner of the app and gradually implemented
> more and more in Elm. You can read the latest blog post
>  that talks more about
> this.
> 3. What would qualify as a moderately complex example? To me, ToDoMVC is
> moderately complex. Also, you could find more moderately complex stuff   on
> builtwithelm.co
> 4. Interop from JS to Elm is beautifully simple through the mechanism of
> ports. Basically you can push messages into the Elm app. Of course, Elm
> does not allow direct state mutation of its program because that would
> defeat some of its purpose.
> 5. There was a proof of concept for a native version of Elm via
> react-native but you are right, there is no native-app framework in Elm
> yet.
> 6. redux was inspired by Elm Architecture so... if you use that, you are
> already getting closer to Elm.
>
> Elm is not ready for the early-majority yet, I'm not sure it is really in
> the realm of the early adopter either. Most of us here might be innovators
> and there are a set of advantages that come with that but also
> disadvantages. :)
>
> So, if you're looking for a full-stack battle proven solution, you have
> come to the wrong place.
> If you are looking for something to take some of the pain of web
> development away, you might be in the right place.
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 1, 2016 at 8:25 AM, nrser  wrote:
>
>> thanks dude.
>>
>> i read a considerable amount more before going sleep last night...
>> checked out the compiler repo (which has a much more clear description of
>> elm - "Elm is a type inferred, functional reactive language that compiles
>> to HTML, CSS, and JavaScript.") and played around with trying to compile
>> something i could use from js (didn't seem possible).
>>
>> i think the conceptual architecture is fantastic. i've been down the road
>> you talk about... managed large products with javascript / actionscript UI
>> front ends... the state management was a disaster. constant source of bugs,
>> which at the scale we were operating translated into very serious amounts
>> of lost time and money.
>>
>> the canonical source of truth and well-defined states and transitions is 
>> *fucking
>> awesome*. revolutionary. and i really like the idea of using a
>> functional, type-safe language.
>>
>> but...
>>
>>1. too narrow of a scope. unless you already know Haskell (and most
>>people don't) you're learning an unfamiliar language that can only be used
>>in exactly one part of the stack and will need to constantly context 
>> switch
>>in and out of it. in my opinion, the major advantage to universal
>>javascript is despite js being such a POS language (thought babel has
>>significantly eased this pain) cutting out this context switch. seems like
>>logic would also need to be duplicated in elm and the back-end language as
>>well, which has been a source of bugs in my experience.
>>2. seem all-or-nothing - my front-end is either in Elm or it's not?
>>i'm not sure i can ease it in slowly and partially. if you have a rails 
>> app
>>or other traditional "fat-server" app this is probably not that big of a
>>deal because you can keep the server portion, serve api end points, and
>>re-write the client stuff in elm (though that alone is a huge amount of
>>effort and risk), but everything i'm dealing with is already js on both
>>sides.
>>3. 

[elm-discuss] Exporting an event stream

[Zachary Kessin]

I know the idea of having an event stream that can be exported and replayed
has been kicked around a bit for a while. Has anyone ever done anything
with this?

Ideally I would like to be able to generate a sequence of events with a
QuickCheck type tool (either in elm or erlang)

Zach

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[elm-discuss] Looking for a contract doing Elm (possibly with Erlang or Elixir)

[Zachary Kessin]

Hi  All
I have been developing on elm for about 8 months and have been doing Erlang
since about 2011. I was wondering if anyone needs a developer for a project?

Zach

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[elm-discuss] Port Error

[Zachary Kessin]

I am having a strange problem with ports, I am trying to send a list of
data through the port (see gist) and I it is giving me a runtime error.

Actually it seems to have nothing to do with the data, as I am trying to
send a string through a different port in the same file and getting the
same error.

Some ports in other files work ok

https://gist.github.com/zkessin/e5b61e80f2d280e5496f60a8e42f0c79

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[elm-discuss] Strnage compiler error

[Zachary Kessin]

I am trying to compile this code
https://gist.github.com/zkessin/e19640130ba33099a9c209b98b012815

when I am getting this error

(line 1, column 31): unexpected "." expecting space, "&" or escape code

7| re = regex "\b[A-Z0-9._%+-]+@[A-Z0-9.-]+\.[A-Z]{2,}\b"
 ^
Maybe  can help you figure it out.


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Re: [elm-discuss] Re: Set.fromList crashing

[Zachary Kessin]

I reworked the code into a dict, not a great solution but it worked and
everyhting is now good

Zach
ᐧ

On Thu, Jul 14, 2016 at 1:49 PM, William Bailey 
wrote:

> PS: I code in GO aka GOLANG a lot too and this has been an active area for
>> them for the last year.  They call it "vendoring".
>
>
>  I suppose that ideally there would be a way to auto-update to the latest
> bug-fix releases but major release updates (eg the move to 0.17 from 0.16)
> would need to be done consciously by hand.
>
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[elm-discuss] Set.fromList crashing

[Zachary Kessin]

When I try to do Set.fromList on this list I am getting elm to crash with
this error I think its a sorting error. I have not had a chance to reduce
it down to a smaller case yet

TypeError: _p0 is undefined

if (_p0.ctor === 'RBEmpty_elm_builtin') {

[elm-discuss] Runtime Error with a port...

[Zachary Kessin]

I am getting an actual runtime error with Elm, I am trying to send a string
out a port to javascript and I am getting this in firebug. In is saying
subs[i](value) is not a function. This is on a port with type "port
setSheet: String -> Cmd msg".

i logged out the sheet id and it was fine (its the 1ID-... line) but for
some reason when I try to call the action it is blowing up. This i in elm
0.17


Sheet Id : "1lD-Z4VtqU4pJm1DfVAJZiFarTficwkkj5MYKgxiVvZU"
elm-dashboard.js (line 835)
TypeError: subs[i] is not a function

subs[i](value);




elm-dashboard.js (line 2104, col 5)





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Re: [elm-discuss] Re: How to convince your boss to start using Elm in the company

[Zachary Kessin]

Thankfully I work for myself, so I only had to convince myself.

I found the upgrades from 0.15 -> 0.16 -> 0.17 were a pain, but less of a
pain then the bugs that I would have had to track down with something like
angular or ExtJS

This opinion is probably worth what you paid for it :)
Zach
ᐧ

On Wed, Jun 22, 2016 at 6:01 AM, Charlie Koster  wrote:

> I think it's worth pointing out that even though Elm will be here
> tomorrow, Elm is still evolving. Take as an example the latest release. If
> you had sold your boss on Elm 0.16 six months ago and then 0.17 comes out
> with very large changes, what are you going to recommend? Do you recommend
> that you stick with 0.16 long term? Or do you rip the band-aid, ask for
> more schedule and money, and convert your Elm 0.16 app to Elm 0.17?
>
> When talking about making a decision from a business perspective we are
> talking about personnel resources, schedule, and money. Are you able to
> justify the less-than-1.0 nature of Elm from a business perspective? Are
> you able to point at the benefits of Elm as outweighing any future risks?
>
> I'm not trying to sway you one way or another. But speaking from my
> personal work situation I have considered this question and as the on-site
> Elm expert I don't consider Elm to be Production ready for the specific
> work that my company does yet. But that doesn't mean it's not ready for the
> type of work your company does.
>
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Re: [elm-discuss] Docs need update to 0.17 for HTML Attribute

[Zachary Kessin]

Ok, so which is the correct doc?

(You might want to put a pointer to the correct doc)

Zach

ᐧ

On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 9:42 AM, Janis Voigtländer <
janis.voigtlaen...@gmail.com> wrote:

> That's a version of the library that will never be used with 0.17. So no,
> it does not need a doc update.
>
> 2016-06-21 8:39 GMT+02:00 Zachary Kessin <zkes...@gmail.com>:
>
>> this page
>> http://package.elm-lang.org/packages/evancz/elm-html/4.0.2/Html-Events
>> still had references to Signal.Address
>>
>> --
>> Zach Kessin
>> Twitter: @zkessin <https://twitter.com/zkessin>
>> Skype: zachkessin
>> ᐧ
>>
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[elm-discuss] Docs need update to 0.17 for HTML Attribute

[Zachary Kessin]

this page
http://package.elm-lang.org/packages/evancz/elm-html/4.0.2/Html-Events
still had references to Signal.Address

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[elm-discuss] Select box works different in Firefox vs Chrome

[Zachary Kessin]

I have this code  that generates the lines of an option box. When I run it
in firefox it works correctly and the event gets sent. But when I run it in
chrome nothing happens. Obviously this is kind of an issue. how can I fix
this?

Zach


  option[
  onClick <| event menuItem.latitude menuItem.longitude
 ][text menuItem.name]


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[elm-discuss] Exporting Elm Type Defs

[Zachary Kessin]

Is there an easy way to parse out elm types and export them to some form of
AST?

I know that NoRedInk did it here... http://noredink.github.io/json-to-elm/
but having a way to define a type in elm then somehow convert that to
erlang code would be really helpful.

Zach

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[elm-discuss] Google Map inside elm

[Zachary Kessin]

Hi All

I am building an application in Elm that requires some maping tools. As
such I would like to use Google maps to visualize the map for my users. I
had looked at the elm-google-maps repo, but it seems to be doing things by
not doing a fullscreen elm app and putting the google map outside of the
main elm rendering area. Is there a way to still have elm be fullscreen and
show a map inside it?


https://github.com/simonh1000/elm-google-maps/blob/quickDirty/index.html
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Re: [elm-discuss] Static Tzpe Checking in Elm vs Java

[Zachary Kessin]

I have thought about the idea of building a next gen elm with idris style
dependent types. To be called "Pine" of course ;)

Mind you I have neither the skills nor the time to do such a thing. But its
a cool idea

Zach
ᐧ

On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 9:56 AM, John Orford <john.orf...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Thanks for the answers guys,
>
> Summing up, because the language is more restricted (doesn't have a lot of
> the Java kitchen sink semantics for example) the type system can more
> precisely describe what's going on in the program...
>
> Meaning that when you are type checking, it is a much more precise test of
> the program's internal consistency, leading to more robustness.
>
> i have been reading the Idris book, would be interested whether anyone has
> any comparisons on using coding dependently typed languages vs Elm or
> whatever.
>
> It must become overkill eventually! But I like how Idris feels so far,
> and I like the extra inference features you get from the extra type
> precision too...
>
> Zachary Kessin <zkes...@gmail.com> schrieb am Mi., 25. Mai 2016 04:13:
>
>> A major issue is the "Maybe". In Java a type can be null so you always
>> have to check for that. WHile in Elm there is difference between "Maybe
>> User" and "User". So the type system will prevent any form of null pointer
>> exception.
>>
>> Zach
>> ᐧ
>>
>> On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 10:06 PM, Joey Eremondi <joey.eremo...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Are you interested in the actual type checking algorithms, or just the
>>> type systems?
>>>
>>> Big differences of the type systems:
>>>
>>> * Elm has tagged union types, meaning that you can make a value that
>>> many have one of many types, and pattern match on its possible variants.
>>>
>>> * Elm has type inference, Java does not. When you declare a variable in
>>> Java, you need to know what type it is. There's no such need in Elm.
>>>
>>> * Elm has first-class functions, so variables can have type a -> b, and
>>> you can build arbitrarily complicated types using function types, put them
>>> in tuples, etc.
>>>
>>> * Java has classes, subtyping, inheritance, etc. Elm doesn't have that,
>>> because subtyping gets in the way of inference, and because it's not nearly
>>> as necessary when you don't have mutable data.
>>>
>>> There are many other differences between the languages, but they're not
>>> necessarily differences in the type system. For example, Java has mutable
>>> variables and Elm does not, but there are strongly typed functional
>>> languages, like ML, which have mutable variables.
>>>
>>> As for the actual typechecking algorithms, Elm uses something like Algorithm
>>> W
>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindley%E2%80%93Milner_type_system#Algorithm_W>,
>>> but a more advanced, constraint-based version which helps with speed and
>>> can actually accept a few more programs.
>>>  Typechecking is based on unification.
>>> I can't speak too much about Java, but I imagine they're using something
>>> like abstract interpretation to typecheck.
>>>
>>> On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 10:49 AM, John Orford <john.orf...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Can someone /wittily/ sum up the experience of type checking in Java vs
>>>> something pure like Elm?
>>>>
>>>> I feel purity, preciseness and descriptiveness is the main difference
>>>> somehow...
>>>>
>>>> Java is too long in the distant past for me, but it's something I love
>>>> about Elm and never really cared for in languages like Java etc.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>>> Groups "Elm Discuss" group.
>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>>> an email to elm-discuss+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>> Groups "Elm Discuss" group.
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>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Zach Kessin
>> Your C

[elm-discuss] Elm Training in Israel & Europe

[Zachary Kessin]

Hi All

I am putting together a 3 or 4 day Elm training class for companies which
are thinking about adopting elm. I will be happy to bring this to your
company in Israel or Europe.

Topics to be covered

   - Introduction to Elm
   - Understanding the type system
   - The Elm Architecture
   - Integrating with ports
   - Using Ajax Requests
   - Testing with Elm-test and Elm Check
   - Lots of exercises

Email me for more details
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Skype: zachkessin
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[elm-discuss] New App running Elm

[Zachary Kessin]

Hi All

I just wanted to let you know about my new App that runs on Elm
SquareTarget! http://squaretarget.rocks

The signup on the main page, as well as several internal pages are in Elm.
I have to say of all the years I have been doing JavaScript development
this is the first time I have managed to get something in production
without debugging something making me want to cry :)

The backend is Erlang and WebMachine just FYI.

Zach
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Re: [elm-discuss] Static Tzpe Checking in Elm vs Java

[Zachary Kessin]

A major issue is the "Maybe". In Java a type can be null so you always have
to check for that. WHile in Elm there is difference between "Maybe User"
and "User". So the type system will prevent any form of null pointer
exception.

Zach
ᐧ

On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 10:06 PM, Joey Eremondi 
wrote:

> Are you interested in the actual type checking algorithms, or just the
> type systems?
>
> Big differences of the type systems:
>
> * Elm has tagged union types, meaning that you can make a value that many
> have one of many types, and pattern match on its possible variants.
>
> * Elm has type inference, Java does not. When you declare a variable in
> Java, you need to know what type it is. There's no such need in Elm.
>
> * Elm has first-class functions, so variables can have type a -> b, and
> you can build arbitrarily complicated types using function types, put them
> in tuples, etc.
>
> * Java has classes, subtyping, inheritance, etc. Elm doesn't have that,
> because subtyping gets in the way of inference, and because it's not nearly
> as necessary when you don't have mutable data.
>
> There are many other differences between the languages, but they're not
> necessarily differences in the type system. For example, Java has mutable
> variables and Elm does not, but there are strongly typed functional
> languages, like ML, which have mutable variables.
>
> As for the actual typechecking algorithms, Elm uses something like Algorithm
> W
> ,
> but a more advanced, constraint-based version which helps with speed and
> can actually accept a few more programs.
>  Typechecking is based on unification.
> I can't speak too much about Java, but I imagine they're using something
> like abstract interpretation to typecheck.
>
> On Tue, May 24, 2016 at 10:49 AM, John Orford 
> wrote:
>
>> Can someone /wittily/ sum up the experience of type checking in Java vs
>> something pure like Elm?
>>
>> I feel purity, preciseness and descriptiveness is the main difference
>> somehow...
>>
>> Java is too long in the distant past for me, but it's something I love
>> about Elm and never really cared for in languages like Java etc.
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "Elm Discuss" group.
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>> email to elm-discuss+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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>>
>
> --
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> "Elm Discuss" group.
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> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>



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Skype: zachkessin

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[elm-discuss] Embed external HTML into elm

[Zachary Kessin]

What I want to do is have a chunk of HTML that is not controlled by elm
inside an elm full page application. Specifically, I want to use Vega to
create graphs in a div on my site.
But when I tried to do that with a port if flickered and generally was
unusable. I think some of the issue was that the update action sent the
commands out to vega, but that the div was not refreshed yet due to the
view code not having been run.


What is the suggested way to do this?

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Skype: zachkessin
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[elm-discuss] Problem with Subscriptions in 0.17

[Zachary Kessin]

The final part of moving my code base over to 0.17...

I have a port/subscription which is used to authenticate from an OAuth btn
and it is getting the wrong type.

In main i have this   *subscriptions = Instagram.subscriptions*

and in the Instagram module I have this code

*port instagramAuth  : ( Maybe String -> msg) -> Sub msg*

*subscriptions model =*
*  instagramAuth SetInstagramOAuth*

And I am getting this error


197|App.programWithFlags
198|>{
199|>  init  = init
200|>, update= update
201|>, view  = view
202|>, subscriptions = Instagram.subscriptions
203|>}

Function `programWithFlags` is expecting the argument to be:

{ ..., subscriptions : Model -> Sub Msg }

But it is:

{ ..., subscriptions : Model -> Sub Instagram.Msg }

Detected errors in 1 module.

I think I need to do some kind of Map but I am not 100% sure what it should
look like and everything I have tried has failed
Zach
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