RE: Coaxial Switches - use with spectrum analyzer and gear?

[Robert Wilson]

As it is stated, below -20dB, nothing at all comes through the switch.
Then once you reach that level, output signal level suddenly begins
increasing from zero. That obviously makes no sense and is probably only
a result of an engineering spec being lost in translation when Marketing
created the Data Sheet.

Losses are not an offset that must be overcome before any output is
generated, but simply as Ken mentioned, a proportion of input power.

Bob Wilson
TIR Systems Ltd.
Vancouver.

-Original Message-
From: richwo...@tycoint.com [mailto:richwo...@tycoint.com] 
Sent: May 23, 2002 1:37 PM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: RE: Coaxial Switches - use with spectrum analyzer and gear?


That information is from an application document found on the Dow Key
web
site. I can't say that I fully understand it myself.

Richard Woods
Sensormatic Electronics
Tyco International



-Original Message-
From: Ken Javor [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 3:59 PM
To: richwo...@tycoint.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Re: Coaxial Switches - use with spectrum analyzer and gear?


I don't understand the snipped statement below.  Isn't the loss just a 
fraction of the power flowing through the switch?

--
>From: richwo...@tycoint.com
>To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
>Subject: RE: Coaxial Switches - use with spectrum analyzer and gear?
>Date: Thu, May 23, 2002, 12:22 PM
>

> A minimum power of about -20dbm must be used to overcome the
> losses in the switch.

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RE: Coaxial Switches - use with spectrum analyzer and gear?

[Michael Taylor]

I had the same problem in my lab.  I whipped up a switching matrix using a
couple of (used) HP 87606 Test system matrix (terminated)  switches.  I used
a simple lighted push button switch driving a steering diode matrix to set
up the switch path.
Now one button sets up the path for:
1. Radiated emissions
2  Conducted emissions l1
3. Conducted emissions L2
4. Conducted emissions earth port
5. Current probe input
6. Close field diagnostic probe / "other"

I use a Network Analyzer (or spectrum Analyzer w/ tracking gen) to sweep the
entire "path" and use that number in my gain/loss correction.  Simple &
effective.
It was not all that expensive & sure saves time.
for what it's worth.
Regards,
Michael Taylor
Colorado 

-Original Message-
From: Jim Eichner [mailto:jim.eich...@xantrex.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 1:55 PM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: RE: Coaxial Switches - use with spectrum analyzer and gear?



In our pre-compliance lab, we've got a pair of LISN's, a LISN-mate type
thing that I'll call a DMRN (DM rejection network), a transient limiter,
some clamp-on RF current probes, an amplifier, the front end of the
analyzer, and a 50 ohm terminator.  All this gear is connected and
unconnected a hundred times a day when we're deep into trouble-shooting, and
I'm sick of doing up and undoing coax connectors.  I don't trust push-on
coax connectors.

What I envision is a system with a few of these coax switches in it. The
analyzer input would go to a switch that selected either the amp (used only
with the clamp-on probes) or the transient limiter (used with the LISN's).
The limiter input would go to a switch that selected between the output of
the DMRN or the Line LISN or the Neutral LISN.  Etc.  You get the idea.

Is there anything to stop me from using coax switches with suitable CW
power, insertion loss, and frequency spec's? Am I headed for trouble if I
have 2 or 3 of these switches in the signal path, due to cumulative
insertion loss?

Thanks for your feedback,

Regards, 
Jim Eichner, P.Eng. 
Manager, Engineering Services 
Xantrex Technology Inc. 
Mobile Power
web: www.xantrex.com  
Any opinions expressed are those of my invisible friend, who really
exists. Honest.

Confidentiality Notice: This email message, including any attachments,
is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain
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recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all
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-Original Message-
From: richwo...@tycoint.com [mailto:richwo...@tycoint.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2002 7:45 AM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Coaxial Switches



Other than Adilent, what are some other sources for low power (<1W) and high
power (>100W) coaxial switches for frequencies up to 2 GHz?

Richard Woods
Sensormatic Electronics
Tyco International


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Re: Coaxial Switches - use with spectrum analyzer and gear?

[Ken Javor]

I saw that but it makes no sense - there are coax switches in EMI receivers
that take inputs from antennas making EMI measurements, looking at microvolt
inputs.

--
>From: richwo...@tycoint.com
>To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
>Subject: RE: Coaxial Switches - use with spectrum analyzer and gear?
>Date: Thu, May 23, 2002, 3:36 PM
>

>
> That information is from an application document found on the Dow Key web
> site. I can't say that I fully understand it myself.
>
> Richard Woods
> Sensormatic Electronics
> Tyco International
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Ken Javor [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com]
> Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 3:59 PM
> To: richwo...@tycoint.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
> Subject: Re: Coaxial Switches - use with spectrum analyzer and gear?
>
>
> I don't understand the snipped statement below.  Isn't the loss just a
> fraction of the power flowing through the switch?
>
> --
>>From: richwo...@tycoint.com
>>To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
>>Subject: RE: Coaxial Switches - use with spectrum analyzer and gear?
>>Date: Thu, May 23, 2002, 12:22 PM
>>
>
>> A minimum power of about -20dbm must be used to overcome the
>> losses in the switch.
>
> ---
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RE: Coaxial Switches - use with spectrum analyzer and gear?

[Jim Eichner]

Actually we use the clamp-on RF probes up to a few hundred MHz (we don't
manufacture anything requiring compliance above 1GHz), but since it's only a
trouble-shooting precompliance setup, I tend to agree that we can stay with
moderate quality and price and parts.  

I love the idea of using an IEEE488 driver and automating the testing, and
certainly the periodic maintenance check is good advice.

Thanks everyone, 


Jim Eichner, P.Eng. 
Manager, Engineering Services 
Xantrex Technology Inc. 
Mobile Power
web: www.xantrex.com  
Any opinions expressed are those of my invisible friend, who really
exists. Honest.



Confidentiality Notice: This email message, including any attachments,
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-Original Message-
From: Ken Javor [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 12:54 PM
To: Price, Ed; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Re: Coaxial Switches - use with spectrum analyzer and gear?



I agree with Ed that there is no problem using switches, but I don't see the
need for 18 GHz, all the measurements you describe stop at 30 MHz.  I don't
see why Mini-Circuits would be out-of-line here, and you can check losses by
using a tracking generator or known signal sources.

--
>From: "Price, Ed" 
>To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
>Subject: RE: Coaxial Switches - use with spectrum analyzer and gear?
>Date: Thu, May 23, 2002, 11:53 AM

>>-Original Message-
>>From: Jim Eichner [mailto:jim.eich...@xantrex.com]
>>Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 12:55 PM
>>To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
>>Subject: RE: Coaxial Switches - use with spectrum analyzer and gear?
>>
>>
>>
>>In our pre-compliance lab, we've got a pair of LISN's, a LISN-mate type
>>thing that I'll call a DMRN (DM rejection network), a
>>transient limiter,
>>some clamp-on RF current probes, an amplifier, the front end of the
>>analyzer, and a 50 ohm terminator.  All this gear is connected and
>>unconnected a hundred times a day when we're deep into
>>trouble-shooting, and
>>I'm sick of doing up and undoing coax connectors.  I don't
>>trust push-on
>>coax connectors.
>>
>>What I envision is a system with a few of these coax switches
>>in it. The
>>analyzer input would go to a switch that selected either the
>>amp (used only
>>with the clamp-on probes) or the transient limiter (used with
>>the LISN's).
>>The limiter input would go to a switch that selected between
>>the output of
>>the DMRN or the Line LISN or the Neutral LISN.  Etc.  You get the idea.
>>
>>Is there anything to stop me from using coax switches with suitable CW
>>power, insertion loss, and frequency spec's? Am I headed for
>>trouble if I
>>have 2 or 3 of these switches in the signal path, due to cumulative
>>insertion loss?
>>
>>Thanks for your feedback,
>>
>>Regards,
>>Jim Eichner, P.Eng.
>>Manager, Engineering Services
>>Xantrex Technology Inc.
>>Mobile Power
>>web: www.xantrex.com 
>>Any opinions expressed are those of my invisible friend, who really
>>exists. Honest.
>>
>
>
> Jim:
>
> There's no reason why you can't implement the switching system you
> described. The only concern is that you use really good parts. (Your
> spectrum analyzer likely has a couple of internal relays in its signal
> path.) Since you likely need to measure up to about 5 GHz, I would use
> components rated for up to 18 GHz. This is not the place to skimp on cost.
> Don't use Dow-Key relays with SO239 UHF connectors; go with something like
> Agilent relays with SMA connectors. Connect the internal paths with
> semi-rigid solid-wall coax, and use a good grade of flexible external coax
> cabling too. If your system is computer-controlled, you can use something
> like an IEEE488 Relay Driver interface to automate the switching
functions.
>
> Your lab procedures should be amended to include some type of periodic
> verification of the loss along all signal paths.
>
> Regards,
>
> Ed
>
> Ed Price
> ed.pr...@cubic.com
> Electromagnetic Compatibility Lab
> Cubic Defense Systems
> San Diego, CA  USA
> 858-505-2780  (Voice)
> 858-505-1583  (Fax)
> Military & Avionics EMC Services Is Our Specialty
> Shake-Bake-Shock - Metrology - Reliability Analysis
>
>

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RE: Coaxial Switches - use with spectrum analyzer and gear?

[richwoods]

That information is from an application document found on the Dow Key web
site. I can't say that I fully understand it myself.

Richard Woods
Sensormatic Electronics
Tyco International



-Original Message-
From: Ken Javor [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 3:59 PM
To: richwo...@tycoint.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Re: Coaxial Switches - use with spectrum analyzer and gear?


I don't understand the snipped statement below.  Isn't the loss just a 
fraction of the power flowing through the switch?

--
>From: richwo...@tycoint.com
>To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
>Subject: RE: Coaxial Switches - use with spectrum analyzer and gear?
>Date: Thu, May 23, 2002, 12:22 PM
>

> A minimum power of about -20dbm must be used to overcome the
> losses in the switch.

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Re: Coaxial Switches - use with spectrum analyzer and gear?

[Ken Javor]

I agree with Ed that there is no problem using switches, but I don't see the
need for 18 GHz, all the measurements you describe stop at 30 MHz.  I don't
see why Mini-Circuits would be out-of-line here, and you can check losses by
using a tracking generator or known signal sources.

--
>From: "Price, Ed" 
>To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
>Subject: RE: Coaxial Switches - use with spectrum analyzer and gear?
>Date: Thu, May 23, 2002, 11:53 AM

>>-Original Message-
>>From: Jim Eichner [mailto:jim.eich...@xantrex.com]
>>Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 12:55 PM
>>To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
>>Subject: RE: Coaxial Switches - use with spectrum analyzer and gear?
>>
>>
>>
>>In our pre-compliance lab, we've got a pair of LISN's, a LISN-mate type
>>thing that I'll call a DMRN (DM rejection network), a
>>transient limiter,
>>some clamp-on RF current probes, an amplifier, the front end of the
>>analyzer, and a 50 ohm terminator.  All this gear is connected and
>>unconnected a hundred times a day when we're deep into
>>trouble-shooting, and
>>I'm sick of doing up and undoing coax connectors.  I don't
>>trust push-on
>>coax connectors.
>>
>>What I envision is a system with a few of these coax switches
>>in it. The
>>analyzer input would go to a switch that selected either the
>>amp (used only
>>with the clamp-on probes) or the transient limiter (used with
>>the LISN's).
>>The limiter input would go to a switch that selected between
>>the output of
>>the DMRN or the Line LISN or the Neutral LISN.  Etc.  You get the idea.
>>
>>Is there anything to stop me from using coax switches with suitable CW
>>power, insertion loss, and frequency spec's? Am I headed for
>>trouble if I
>>have 2 or 3 of these switches in the signal path, due to cumulative
>>insertion loss?
>>
>>Thanks for your feedback,
>>
>>Regards,
>>Jim Eichner, P.Eng.
>>Manager, Engineering Services
>>Xantrex Technology Inc.
>>Mobile Power
>>web: www.xantrex.com 
>>Any opinions expressed are those of my invisible friend, who really
>>exists. Honest.
>>
>
>
> Jim:
>
> There's no reason why you can't implement the switching system you
> described. The only concern is that you use really good parts. (Your
> spectrum analyzer likely has a couple of internal relays in its signal
> path.) Since you likely need to measure up to about 5 GHz, I would use
> components rated for up to 18 GHz. This is not the place to skimp on cost.
> Don't use Dow-Key relays with SO239 UHF connectors; go with something like
> Agilent relays with SMA connectors. Connect the internal paths with
> semi-rigid solid-wall coax, and use a good grade of flexible external coax
> cabling too. If your system is computer-controlled, you can use something
> like an IEEE488 Relay Driver interface to automate the switching functions.
>
> Your lab procedures should be amended to include some type of periodic
> verification of the loss along all signal paths.
>
> Regards,
>
> Ed
>
> Ed Price
> ed.pr...@cubic.com
> Electromagnetic Compatibility Lab
> Cubic Defense Systems
> San Diego, CA  USA
> 858-505-2780  (Voice)
> 858-505-1583  (Fax)
> Military & Avionics EMC Services Is Our Specialty
> Shake-Bake-Shock - Metrology - Reliability Analysis
>
> ---
> This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety
> Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list.
>
> Visit our web site at:  http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/
>
> To cancel your subscription, send mail to:
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>
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/
> Click on "browse" and then "emc-pstc mailing list"
> 

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Re: Coaxial Switches - use with spectrum analyzer and gear?

[Ken Javor]

I don't understand the snipped statement below.  Isn't the loss just a 
fraction of the power flowing through the switch?

--
>From: richwo...@tycoint.com
>To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
>Subject: RE: Coaxial Switches - use with spectrum analyzer and gear?
>Date: Thu, May 23, 2002, 12:22 PM
>

> A minimum power of about -20dbm must be used to overcome the
> losses in the switch.

---
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RE: UL 60950, Section 6.1.2.1

[Georgerian, Richard]

Greetings All,

Thanks to all to those who replied to my questions. I appreciate the time
and effort that was put into the responses.

Richard Georgerian
Compliance Engineer 
Carrier Access Corporation
5395 Pearl Parkway
Boulder, CO 80301
USA
Tele: 303-218-5748  Fax: 303-218-5503
mailto:rgeorger...@carrieraccess.com


*
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RE: Coaxial Switches - use with spectrum analyzer and gear?

[richwoods]

Here is what I have learned about switches this week. There are very low
power rated switches for usual ATE applications, power switches (circa 200W)
and high power switches. For power switches, the insertion loss is in the
order of 0.2 db over a very wide frequency range (DC to many GHz). The power
rating is based upon the power than can be conducted through the switch -
not switched. The power must be turned off before switching or be about
1-10% of the rating while switched to prevent premature failure of the
contacts. A minimum power of about -20dbm must be used to overcome the
losses in the switch. Options include type of connector (e.g., SMA, N,
indicator contacts, latching type, and others. GPIB controllers are
available for controlling switches. My particular application is to add to
our radiated immunity setup. We are adding a 1-2GHz amp and directional
coupler. I have to switch the signal generator between two amps, switch the
antenna to the directional couplers and switch the power meter to the
couplers - 3 relays. I plan to use a simple, manual two position switch to
control the three relays and think about automation later.

You can find a wealth of information at www.dowkey.com.

Richard Woods
Sensormatic Electronics
Tyco International


-Original Message-
From: Jim Eichner [mailto:jim.eich...@xantrex.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 3:55 PM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: RE: Coaxial Switches - use with spectrum analyzer and gear?



In our pre-compliance lab, we've got a pair of LISN's, a LISN-mate type
thing that I'll call a DMRN (DM rejection network), a transient limiter,
some clamp-on RF current probes, an amplifier, the front end of the
analyzer, and a 50 ohm terminator.  All this gear is connected and
unconnected a hundred times a day when we're deep into trouble-shooting, and
I'm sick of doing up and undoing coax connectors.  I don't trust push-on
coax connectors.

What I envision is a system with a few of these coax switches in it. The
analyzer input would go to a switch that selected either the amp (used only
with the clamp-on probes) or the transient limiter (used with the LISN's).
The limiter input would go to a switch that selected between the output of
the DMRN or the Line LISN or the Neutral LISN.  Etc.  You get the idea.

Is there anything to stop me from using coax switches with suitable CW
power, insertion loss, and frequency spec's? Am I headed for trouble if I
have 2 or 3 of these switches in the signal path, due to cumulative
insertion loss?

Thanks for your feedback,

Regards, 
Jim Eichner, P.Eng. 
Manager, Engineering Services 
Xantrex Technology Inc. 
Mobile Power
web: www.xantrex.com  
Any opinions expressed are those of my invisible friend, who really
exists. Honest.

Confidentiality Notice: This email message, including any attachments,
is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain
confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use,
disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended
recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all
copies of the original message.



-Original Message-
From: richwo...@tycoint.com [mailto:richwo...@tycoint.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2002 7:45 AM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Coaxial Switches



Other than Adilent, what are some other sources for low power (<1W) and high
power (>100W) coaxial switches for frequencies up to 2 GHz?

Richard Woods
Sensormatic Electronics
Tyco International


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RE: Accreditation - testing ourselves

[Clement Dave-LDC009]

Michael,

Second and Third party testing is a different issue from what Amund was
asking. Second party accreditation has to address independence within the
organization to ensure results can not be impacted by business pressures of
the organization. Third party accreditation must address confidentiality to
ensure one companies proprietary info is not made known to another.

It is only natural to feel more comfortable with a report from an
independent lab than one from the manufacturers own lab even if both labs
have the same accreditation. From a regulatory standpoint this used to be a
requirement but now with all the self declaration programs appearing it is
less and less mandatory.

Dave Clement
Motorola Inc.
Global Homologation Engineering
20 Cabot Blvd.
Mansfield, MA 02048

P:508-851-8259
F:508-851-8512
C:508-725-9689
mailto:dave.clem...@motorola.com


-Original Message-
From: michael.sundst...@nokia.com [mailto:michael.sundst...@nokia.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 12:00 PM
To: Dave Clement; am...@westin-emission.no; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: RE: Accreditation - testing ourselves


Don't forget the aspect of self testing. Doesn't 17025 have special
provisions / requirements about self testing your own item? I hear third
party testing is always given precedence over self testing data. Is this
true and written in 17025 or just the way the auditors interpret it?

Michael Sundstrom
 NOKIA 
  TCC Dallas / EMC
   ofc: (972) 374-1462
cell: (817) 917-5021
 amateur call: KB5UKT


-Original Message-
From: ext Clement Dave-LDC009 [mailto:dave.clem...@motorola.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 9:14 AM
To: 'am...@westin-emission.no'; 'emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org'
Subject: RE: Accreditation - testing ourselves

From: am...@westin-emission.no [mailto:am...@westin-emission.no]
Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 8:25 AM

>An EMC test lab is accredited according to ISO/IEC 17025. They are also
>accredited for many tests as the IEC61000-4-series, EN55022 and many other.
>We have previously done some EMC pre-testing in this lab and we have
>operated the test equipment ourselves. Now, they won't let us do that with
>reference to their accreditation status. The test lab personnel have to
>operate the test equipment. Does it make sense, is there any restriction in
>the accreditation ?

There is nothing in ISO 17025 that would prevent a lab from allowing someone
from coming in and using the equipment. However, if they had not made
provisions in their QA manual for use by non lab personnel they would be in
violation of there own procedures and subject to audit findings by the lab
accrediting body.

Specifically they would need to address; how they were going to ensure that
testing done by non lab personnel would not be represented as lab performed
testing and that test equipment was still in calibration after use by non
lab personnel.

They may be hiding behind the accreditation as a graceful way of stopping a
practice they no longer want to be involved in.


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RE: Coaxial Switches - use with spectrum analyzer and gear?

[Price, Ed]

>-Original Message-
>From: Jim Eichner [mailto:jim.eich...@xantrex.com]
>Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 12:55 PM
>To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
>Subject: RE: Coaxial Switches - use with spectrum analyzer and gear?
>
>
>
>In our pre-compliance lab, we've got a pair of LISN's, a LISN-mate type
>thing that I'll call a DMRN (DM rejection network), a 
>transient limiter,
>some clamp-on RF current probes, an amplifier, the front end of the
>analyzer, and a 50 ohm terminator.  All this gear is connected and
>unconnected a hundred times a day when we're deep into 
>trouble-shooting, and
>I'm sick of doing up and undoing coax connectors.  I don't 
>trust push-on
>coax connectors.
>
>What I envision is a system with a few of these coax switches 
>in it. The
>analyzer input would go to a switch that selected either the 
>amp (used only
>with the clamp-on probes) or the transient limiter (used with 
>the LISN's).
>The limiter input would go to a switch that selected between 
>the output of
>the DMRN or the Line LISN or the Neutral LISN.  Etc.  You get the idea.
>
>Is there anything to stop me from using coax switches with suitable CW
>power, insertion loss, and frequency spec's? Am I headed for 
>trouble if I
>have 2 or 3 of these switches in the signal path, due to cumulative
>insertion loss?
>
>Thanks for your feedback,
>
>Regards, 
>Jim Eichner, P.Eng. 
>Manager, Engineering Services 
>Xantrex Technology Inc. 
>Mobile Power
>web: www.xantrex.com  
>Any opinions expressed are those of my invisible friend, who really
>exists. Honest.
>


Jim:

There's no reason why you can't implement the switching system you
described. The only concern is that you use really good parts. (Your
spectrum analyzer likely has a couple of internal relays in its signal
path.) Since you likely need to measure up to about 5 GHz, I would use
components rated for up to 18 GHz. This is not the place to skimp on cost.
Don't use Dow-Key relays with SO239 UHF connectors; go with something like
Agilent relays with SMA connectors. Connect the internal paths with
semi-rigid solid-wall coax, and use a good grade of flexible external coax
cabling too. If your system is computer-controlled, you can use something
like an IEEE488 Relay Driver interface to automate the switching functions.

Your lab procedures should be amended to include some type of periodic
verification of the loss along all signal paths.

Regards,

Ed

Ed Price
ed.pr...@cubic.com
Electromagnetic Compatibility Lab
Cubic Defense Systems
San Diego, CA  USA
858-505-2780  (Voice)
858-505-1583  (Fax)
Military & Avionics EMC Services Is Our Specialty
Shake-Bake-Shock - Metrology - Reliability Analysis

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RE: UL 1244

[Ned Devine]

Hi,

I pulled the bulleting for UL 1244.  The phase out dates are.

ESTABLISHED EFFECTIVE DATES

Implementation will be in accordance with the following schedule:

Now until December 31, 2002-
Manufacturers may submit to either UL 1244 or UL 3111-1 requirements.
Equipment that is
evaluated to UL 3111-1 will also be evaluated to any applicable Particular
Standards.

January 1,2003 to December 31, 2007 -
Manufacturers of new equipment must submit to UL 3111-1 plus applicable
Particular Standards;
however, equipment previously manufactured and evaluated under UL 1244 will
continue to be
Listed (or Recognized) until December 31,2007 unless changes are made to the
equipment
in which case the equipment must be evaluated to UL 3111-1.

After January 1, 2008
All equipment must be evaluated to UL 3111-1 and any applicable Particular
Standards which
apply to the specific type of equipment.


Ned Devine
Program Manager
Entela, Inc.
3033 Madison Ave. SE
Grand Rapids, MI  49548
1 616 248 9671 Phone
1 616 574 9752 Fax
ndev...@entela.com e-mail

Entela, Inc. A Certified Woman Owned Business
www.entela.com 





-Original Message-
From: Brooks, Barbara [mailto:bbro...@hnt.wylelabs.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 9:19 AM
To: EMC Post
Subject: UL 1244



Members,

I have been told that UL 1244 will be withdrawn in the near future.  Does
anyone have the date this standard will be withdrawn?

Thank you for your assistance.

Barbara Brooks
Wyle Laboratories
7800 Highway 20 West
Huntsville, AL 35807-
(256) 837-4411 ext 595
(253) 721-0144 Fax
bbro...@hnt.wylelabs.com


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RE: Accreditation - testing ourselves

[John Shinn]

Yes, it does make sense.  I am speaking from the position of an Accredited
Laboratory.
When a lab is accredited, it will receive a certificate of accreditation
which states that
it is accredited to ISO 17025 (and the accrediting body) and a "Scope of
Accreditation".
The Scope of Accreditation will list those acitivites (or standards) that
the lab is may
perform under the accreditation.

During the accreditation process, the lab personnel are evaluated in their
knowledge
and ability to perform those tests.  The Accredited lab is responsible for
ascertaining
that the test were performed correctly and according to the documented
procedure.
Thus, in order to assure that the test was performed correctly, the lab will
require that
the lab personnel perform the test.

However, the lab may perform other tests outside of their scope.  In doing
so, they are
not allowed to use the logo of the accrediting body, or indicate that the
test report is
generated by an accredcited laboratory.

If you want to do an Engineering Evaluation and want data only, then it
would probably
be ok if you ran the test, but that would depend upon the policy of the Lab.
There is
no requirement that they have to allow you to use their equipment for
performing the
test.

If you want a Final Test Report with all of the applicable accreditations,
then you would
want the lab's personnel to perform the test.  The result would be a test
report that
would be recognized by many regulatory agencies, depending upon the lab's
accreditation
and MRA status.

John Shinn, P.E.
Manager, Lab Operations
Sanmina-SCI Homologation Services



-Original Message-
From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
[mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of
am...@westin-emission.no
Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 5:25 AM
To: "EMC-PSTC (E-mail)" <
Subject: Accreditation - testing ourselves



Hi all,

An EMC test lab is accredited according to ISO/IEC 17025. They are also
accredited for many tests as the IEC61000-4-series, EN55022 and many other.
We have previously done some EMC pre-testing in this lab and we have
operated the test equipment ourselves. Now, they won't let us do that with
reference to their accreditation status. The test lab personnel have to
operate the test equipment. Does it make sense, is there any restriction in
the accreditation ?

We have always made a clear cut between pre-testing and accredited testing.

Best regards
Amund Westin



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RE: Accreditation - testing ourselves and a new question.

[Gary McInturff]

Amund
I'm  not quite sure I understand this. Are you saying that for 
pre-qualification only, that you want to run the gear? If that's the case I 
don't believe that their accreditation speaks to that in any fashion, but their 
business insurance etc might have something to say about it. If my main income 
was coming from the continued operation and calibration of some very expensive 
equipment, it would have to be a very special case before I let others operate 
it and potentially put it at risk.
In fact the test lab I use has a branch near me. The measuring 
equipment, ground plane and structures were all purchased by me for a third 
company some years ago when I ran the EMI lab and I physically operated it for 
many years. Obviously, I am intimately familiar with it, but I keep my hands 
off of it, unless they ask me to make a quick check or something.
If it is for accreditation then I think the hang-up is going to be in 
the quality manuals and documents that are part of the lab's accreditation. 
There is a section on the test personnel and their past and future training 
etc. You are not an employee of the lab so wouldn't fall under their quality 
guidelines, or necessarily adhere to their processes. To insure that they would 
have to sit there and oversee you, even if they were to allow. So they are 
going to charge you for the lab personnel anyway.
As long as we are talking about procedural changes I would like to ask 
how test labs are treating the various input voltages available in most 
equipment. This would be for radiated emissions not conducted. Conducted 
emissions tests at different voltages are pretty clear in my mind, but not 
radiated emissions.
Until just recently all of the labs I am aware of, and I used three or 
four, all used the same process for radiated emissions. Under the assumption 
that the logic operated at the same 5, 3.3 or 2.2 volts not matter what the 
input power range was. The radiated emissions was performed at generally 120 
Vac, in the US. One lab always ran it at 230, as CISPR 22 made reference to the 
input voltage, while the US largely left it unaddressed other than noting that 
they accept the CISPR 22 limits and procedures as long as they are used both in 
amplitude and frequency range.
I once saw a reference, may be Taiwan, that specified testing at 
multiple voltages, but even then only for Class B equipment.
My primary lab has started, a prescan at each voltage under 
consideration, 120 and 230, and then selected a test voltage. It has now 
advanced to doing a much more intense scan at 100, 120 , 230 volts and then 
selecting a voltage (variances are often more equipment temperature related 
than voltage related, in my opinion  and are in the noise floor - less than 1 
dB). Only then does the test begin. The last time I was there the "pre-scan" 
took three hours. Then we could look for a full range of suspects, and finals. 
What used to be about a 4 hour process has become an 8 hour process, doubling 
my test expenses.
Other than their desire for accuracy, which is a bit difficult to argue 
against, I can't find justification in the standards that demand it and it is 
eroding my budget. So basically I need to have a sanity check and either quit 
complaining at the test house or force the issue. In all other respects they do 
a great job and I enjoy working with them. 
This is ITE equipment with an auto ranging switch mode power supply. 
Gary

-Original Message-
From: am...@westin-emission.no [mailto:am...@westin-emission.no]
Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 5:25 AM
To: "EMC-PSTC (E-mail)" <
Subject: Accreditation - testing ourselves



Hi all,

An EMC test lab is accredited according to ISO/IEC 17025. They are also
accredited for many tests as the IEC61000-4-series, EN55022 and many other.
We have previously done some EMC pre-testing in this lab and we have
operated the test equipment ourselves. Now, they won't let us do that with
reference to their accreditation status. The test lab personnel have to
operate the test equipment. Does it make sense, is there any restriction in
the accreditation ?

We have always made a clear cut between pre-testing and accredited testing.

Best regards
Amund Westin



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RE: Accreditation - testing ourselves

[Michael.Sundstrom]

Don't forget the aspect of self testing. Doesn't 17025 have special provisions 
/ requirements about self testing your own item? I hear third party testing is 
always given precedence over self testing data. Is this true and written in 
17025 or just the way the auditors interpret it?

Michael Sundstrom
 NOKIA 
  TCC Dallas / EMC
   ofc: (972) 374-1462
cell: (817) 917-5021
 amateur call: KB5UKT


-Original Message-
From: ext Clement Dave-LDC009 [mailto:dave.clem...@motorola.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 9:14 AM
To: 'am...@westin-emission.no'; 'emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org'
Subject: RE: Accreditation - testing ourselves



From: am...@westin-emission.no [mailto:am...@westin-emission.no]
Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 8:25 AM

>An EMC test lab is accredited according to ISO/IEC 17025. They are also
>accredited for many tests as the IEC61000-4-series, EN55022 and many other.
>We have previously done some EMC pre-testing in this lab and we have
>operated the test equipment ourselves. Now, they won't let us do that with
>reference to their accreditation status. The test lab personnel have to
>operate the test equipment. Does it make sense, is there any restriction in
>the accreditation ?

There is nothing in ISO 17025 that would prevent a lab from allowing someone
from coming in and using the equipment. However, if they had not made
provisions in their QA manual for use by non lab personnel they would be in
violation of there own procedures and subject to audit findings by the lab
accrediting body.

Specifically they would need to address; how they were going to ensure that
testing done by non lab personnel would not be represented as lab performed
testing and that test equipment was still in calibration after use by non
lab personnel.

They may be hiding behind the accreditation as a graceful way of stopping a
practice they no longer want to be involved in.

Dave Clement
Motorola Inc.
Global Homologation Engineering
20 Cabot Blvd.
Mansfield, MA 02048

P:508-851-8259
F:508-851-8512
C:508-725-9689
mailto:dave.clem...@motorola.com

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RE: Coaxial Switches - use with spectrum analyzer and gear?

[Jim Eichner]

In our pre-compliance lab, we've got a pair of LISN's, a LISN-mate type
thing that I'll call a DMRN (DM rejection network), a transient limiter,
some clamp-on RF current probes, an amplifier, the front end of the
analyzer, and a 50 ohm terminator.  All this gear is connected and
unconnected a hundred times a day when we're deep into trouble-shooting, and
I'm sick of doing up and undoing coax connectors.  I don't trust push-on
coax connectors.

What I envision is a system with a few of these coax switches in it. The
analyzer input would go to a switch that selected either the amp (used only
with the clamp-on probes) or the transient limiter (used with the LISN's).
The limiter input would go to a switch that selected between the output of
the DMRN or the Line LISN or the Neutral LISN.  Etc.  You get the idea.

Is there anything to stop me from using coax switches with suitable CW
power, insertion loss, and frequency spec's? Am I headed for trouble if I
have 2 or 3 of these switches in the signal path, due to cumulative
insertion loss?

Thanks for your feedback,

Regards, 
Jim Eichner, P.Eng. 
Manager, Engineering Services 
Xantrex Technology Inc. 
Mobile Power
web: www.xantrex.com  
Any opinions expressed are those of my invisible friend, who really
exists. Honest.

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-Original Message-
From: richwo...@tycoint.com [mailto:richwo...@tycoint.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2002 7:45 AM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Coaxial Switches



Other than Adilent, what are some other sources for low power (<1W) and high
power (>100W) coaxial switches for frequencies up to 2 GHz?

Richard Woods
Sensormatic Electronics
Tyco International


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Re: Accreditation - testing ourselves

[reheller]

As long as the data you gather is not used in a test report to show
compliance, it is between you
and the lab (and their lawyers) as to what you can and cannot do. It has
nothing to do with accreditation.

Bob Heller
3M Product Safety, 76-1-01
St. Paul, MN 55107-1208
Tel:  651- 778-6336
Fax:  651-778-6252
=



 
  amund@westin-emiss
 
  ion.no   To:   "\"EMC-PSTC 
\(E-mail\)\" <" 
   cc:   (bcc: Robert E. 
Heller/US-Corporate/3M/US)  
  05/23/2002 07:25 Subject:  Accreditation - 
testing ourselves   
  AM
 
  Please respond to 
 
  amund 
 

 

 






Hi all,

An EMC test lab is accredited according to ISO/IEC 17025. They are also
accredited for many tests as the IEC61000-4-series, EN55022 and many other.
We have previously done some EMC pre-testing in this lab and we have
operated the test equipment ourselves. Now, they won't let us do that with
reference to their accreditation status. The test lab personnel have to
operate the test equipment. Does it make sense, is there any restriction in
the accreditation ?

We have always made a clear cut between pre-testing and accredited testing.

Best regards
Amund Westin



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RE: Accreditation - testing ourselves

[Clement Dave-LDC009]

From: am...@westin-emission.no [mailto:am...@westin-emission.no]
Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 8:25 AM

>An EMC test lab is accredited according to ISO/IEC 17025. They are also
>accredited for many tests as the IEC61000-4-series, EN55022 and many other.
>We have previously done some EMC pre-testing in this lab and we have
>operated the test equipment ourselves. Now, they won't let us do that with
>reference to their accreditation status. The test lab personnel have to
>operate the test equipment. Does it make sense, is there any restriction in
>the accreditation ?

There is nothing in ISO 17025 that would prevent a lab from allowing someone
from coming in and using the equipment. However, if they had not made
provisions in their QA manual for use by non lab personnel they would be in
violation of there own procedures and subject to audit findings by the lab
accrediting body.

Specifically they would need to address; how they were going to ensure that
testing done by non lab personnel would not be represented as lab performed
testing and that test equipment was still in calibration after use by non
lab personnel.

They may be hiding behind the accreditation as a graceful way of stopping a
practice they no longer want to be involved in.

Dave Clement
Motorola Inc.
Global Homologation Engineering
20 Cabot Blvd.
Mansfield, MA 02048

P:508-851-8259
F:508-851-8512
C:508-725-9689
mailto:dave.clem...@motorola.com

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UL 1244

[Brooks, Barbara]

Members,

I have been told that UL 1244 will be withdrawn in the near future.  Does 
anyone have the date this standard will be withdrawn?

Thank you for your assistance.

Barbara Brooks
Wyle Laboratories
7800 Highway 20 West
Huntsville, AL 35807-
(256) 837-4411 ext 595
(253) 721-0144 Fax
bbro...@hnt.wylelabs.com


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Accreditation - testing ourselves

[amund]

Hi all,

An EMC test lab is accredited according to ISO/IEC 17025. They are also
accredited for many tests as the IEC61000-4-series, EN55022 and many other.
We have previously done some EMC pre-testing in this lab and we have
operated the test equipment ourselves. Now, they won't let us do that with
reference to their accreditation status. The test lab personnel have to
operate the test equipment. Does it make sense, is there any restriction in
the accreditation ?

We have always made a clear cut between pre-testing and accredited testing.

Best regards
Amund Westin



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Taiwan Requirements for Laboratory Equipment

[Peter Merguerian]

Dear All,

What are the Taiwanese erquirements for laboratory equipment?

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PETER S. MERGUERIAN
Technical Director
I.T.L. (Product Testing) Ltd.
26 Hacharoshet St., POB 211
Or Yehuda 60251, Israel
Tel: + 972-(0)3-5339022  Fax: + 972-(0)3-5339019
Mobile: + 972-(0)54-838175
http://www.itl.co.il
http://www.i-spec.com





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