RE: NRTL in the U.S.
Another interpretation of the question may be Where is the NRTL requirement strictly enforced? (which is a much larger list than where it is required.) Where can you get away without a NRTL mark? That depends in part on the product, the market, and the distribution scheme. Which brings this to mind- Is a law a law if it is not enforced? (Many politically controversial issues come to mind here.) I have had many clients who actually want to waive tests based on the argument We've been selling these for years, and have had no complaints yet. It is not uncommon to be able to sell laboratory equipment, with a CE mark only, all over the US. Even some medical equipment (which truly surprised me). Basically, if the client (or reseller) doesn't care, and the electrical inspector doesn't see it, it can be sold and used without a NRTL mark. The same logic can be used in illicit drug trafficking as well. (If I don't get caught, I'm not breaking the law). I am not suggesting that any product to be sold in the US not be NRTL'ed, but just expressing another viewpoint. Besides the fact that my employer makes money when we sell a NRTL job, my risk vs reward mindset tells me the cash saved now (a few $k - not much reward) ain't worth the potential injuries, deaths, and lawsuits (where the risk amount depends on your company's assets). NRTL it, and the question is moot. Sam This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: NRTL in the U.S.
Hello Peter, This is probably true when an electrician is involved in a product installation. However, the majority of products that we are dealing with do not require an electrician to install. They are either installed by the Customer or a representative of the product manufacturer. The acceptance of liability in using a Non-Listed product is no different in accepting the liability of using a Listed one because being NRTL Listed doesn't always mean your product is safe. Just take a look at all the products that are being recalled by the Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) that are NRTL Listed. Best regards, Ron Wellman At 03:06 PM 1/14/2003 -0500, peter.a.manfredo...@us.ul.com wrote: The truth is that an independent licensed electrician will not connect a product that is not Listed. In commercial or industrial environments, there may be a Licensed Professional Engineer on staff, who can approve a product but he takes the personal liability for Non-Listed products. Manfredonia -- For more information about UL, its Marks, and its services for EMC, quality registrations and product certifications for global markets, please access our web sites at http://www.ul.com and http://www.ulc.ca, or contact your local sales representative. -- * Internet E-mail Confidentiality Disclaimer ** This e-mail message may contain privileged or confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, you may not disclose, use, disseminate, distribute, copy or rely upon this message or attachment in any way. If you received this e-mail message in error, please return by forwarding the message and its attachments to the sender. Underwriters Laboratories Inc. and its affiliates do not accept liability for any errors, omissions, corruption or virus in the contents of this message or any attachments that arise as a result of e-mail transmission. * This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: NRTL in the U.S.
Hi Dave: Does this apply to in-house test equipment? That is, equipment that is built in-house and remains on site? In the past I have designed in-house equipment to meet the safety standards but did not send the equipment out for testing and certification. Yes. If you check with your local electrical code inspectors (or, if you have one, your in-house electrician ), you will find that custom-built equipment used in your factory or site must meet the electrical code, which means it must be certified for safety. Many of the certification houses offer on-site investigations of such equipment. UL has a standard (I don't recall the number) for such equipment. Upon successful completion of the investigation, the cert house will put a sticker on the equipment, and the electrical code inspector will accept the equipment. (Such certification also protects your employer against violation of OSHA rules.) Best regards, Rich This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: NRTL in the U.S.
This is a multi-part message in MIME format. Dave's question - Does this apply to in-house test equipment? Hi Dave - Good question (Please see attached). I'm sorry about the file size but I took it from the Department of Labor web site several years ago when this topic first came up. (It repeats about every 6 months if my memory serves) Beware of defining the situation incorrectly. Between RD - Prototyping - Manufacturing - customer site. As you change location the to NRTL or not to NRTL conditions may change - so . FIRST - THINK IT THROUGH VERY CAREFULLY - short term - long term. Document your CONDITIONS of acceptable USE However - the BEST and MOST RELEVANT people to ask are your Corporate Insurers. It would be little good meeting the local code to find that there is small print in your corporate liability insurance leaves you with personal liability for any failure - injury or death!!! NEXT - is it legal? - If 'yes' then. - ASK WHY AM I DOING THIS? If you answer legal requirements then think again. If you answer to reduce liability then think again If the answer is to prevent injury, etc then consider what if things go wrong - what protection do you would have in law. I thought it was OK is not good. I was only doing my job or I'm not paid to do that are worst Will there be any evidence (maybe even years after you have left the company) you made any assessment? Will there be any record of any changes to 'your' design? Even if you can avoid NRTL testing then you need to protect yourself - NOT YOUR COMPANY - (people go to jail - companies don't). You would be most wise to create a UL-Style Product Description AND UL style test Report so that you have some sort of evidence of due diligence AND A CONFIGURATION RECORD OF WHAT YOU TESTED. It have seen too many modifications that have made products d-a-n-g-e-r-o-u-s. Whereas I believe that there is may be no single one right answer to your question there will be, I am sure, plenty of wrong ones. Hopefully those will not be posted here!!! STEP OUTSIDE THE BOX Try to think of 'compliance' not as PASS or FAIL; but as a continuum from DEPLORABLE through ACCEPTABLE to the UNATTAINABLE. Whereas there is a basic legal need to reach ACCEPTABLE there is a commercial need (6-sigma - zero-defect - fault-free : call it what you will) that strives for better things. (Which is just as well because the standards have become stricter and will continue to do so.) My company has clients at all points along that continuum and work with them to progress their knowledge and to show them how they can reduce their personal and corporate risks. Before someone shoots COSTS at me - please let me add - we find that the cost (of training and implementation) is more than offset by cost saving that result from the compliance improvement exercise. There are free downloads under the eLearning section of our web site - please help yourself. Best regards Gregg Gregg Kervill DipIM, MIMgt, MIEEE VP Engineering Test4Safety.com Inc PO Box 310, Reedville, VA 22539. USA Phone ( 804) 453-3141 Fax(804) 453-9039 http://www.test4safety.com/ From: drcuthbert [mailto:drcuthb...@micron.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 12:53 PM To: 'Gregg Kervill'; 'Joe P Martin'; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: NRTL in the U.S. Does this apply to in-house test equipment? That is, equipment that is built in-house and remains on site? In the past I have designed in-house equipment to meet the safety standards but did not send the equipment out for testing and certification. Dave From: Gregg Kervill [mailto:gr...@test4safety.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 7:50 AM To: 'Joe P Martin'; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: NRTL in the U.S. Importance: High Joe, You are correct that NRTL LISTING is a specified requirement by some cities and states. You are incorrect in that all products used where OSHA applies are required to be NRTL LISTED. NEC Code makes that same requirement Furthermore most (I have yet to find an exception) cities and states base their code upon NEC There may be local exception but I believe that to make a 'blanket statement that .. NRTL is not required in the US... is I believe at best confusing and at that the worst very dangerous. The following is a statement from the US NOL: All electrical equipment, except those kinds which no NRTL accepts, certifies, lists, labels, or otherwise determines to be safe, must be approved, as that term is defined at 29 CFR 1910.399. Except as indicated in the following this means that a NRTL must accept, certify, label, list, or otherwise determine that equipment is safe for it to be considered approved. The requirement mandating that electrical equipment be approved is set forth at 29 CFR 1910.303(a). Also, OSHA Standard 29 CFR 1910.303(b)(2) requires that approved equipment be used in conformance with its approval. Electrical equipment
RE: NRTL in the U.S.
Rich Nute (I think) wrote and excellent article or e-mail on this not too long ago and should be in the archives. Its pretty concise and clear but goes into some pretty good specifics and the state laws and how they very and you will find it very helpful. Rich if it wasn't you sorry but you better get writing! Gary From: Ronald R. Wellman [mailto:rwell...@wellman.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 8:53 AM To: peter.a.manfredo...@us.ul.com; Joe P Martin Cc: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org; owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: NRTL in the U.S. Hello Peter, Those of us who have had to list products in the United States already know this. What is required by law versus what is a customer requirement are two different things. NRTL listing is a Customer requirement as viewed from a product manufacturer. However, there are some cities, states, and counties, that require NRTL listing by law. To answer Martin's question, I believe it is Cook County, Illinois and just the City (not county) of Los Angeles that require NRTL listing. I also remember that the State of Oregon requires NRTL listing as well as some counties in Florida. Best regards, Ron Wellman At 08:37 AM 1/14/2003 -0500, peter.a.manfredo...@us.ul.com wrote: Local municipalities throughout the U.S. adopt the National Electrical code NFPA 70 as a way to assure consistent administration and enforcement of a standardized electrical code. The Code provides that wiring and installed electrical equipment ...Need not be inspected at the time of installation of the equipment, except to detect alterations or damage, if the equipment has been LISTED by a qualified electrical testing laboratory Manfredonia Joe P Martin MartinJP@appliedbiosys To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org tems.com cc: Sent by: Subject: NRTL in the U.S. owner-emc-pstc@majordom o.ieee.org 01/13/2003 11:22 PM Please respond to Joe P Martin Greetings, As has been discussed in previous threads, NRTL Listing is not a requirement to sell electronic products in the U.S. However, there are cities, counties, etc. within the U.S. that do require NRTL Listing. These include Los Angeles and Chicago. Does anyone have a comprehensive list of all the cities, counties or states that do require NRTL Listing. Any and all comments are appreciated. Regards Joe Martin Applied Biosystems marti...@appliedbiosystems.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list -- For more information about UL, its Marks, and its services for EMC, quality registrations and product certifications for global markets, please access our web sites at http://www.ul.com and http://www.ulc.ca, or contact your local sales representative. -- * Internet E-mail Confidentiality Disclaimer ** This e-mail message may contain privileged or confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, you may not disclose, use, disseminate, distribute, copy or rely upon this message or attachment in any way. If you received this e-mail message in error, please return by forwarding the message and its attachments to the sender. Underwriters Laboratories Inc. and its affiliates do not accept liability for any errors, omissions, corruption or virus in the contents of this message or any attachments that arise as a result of e-mail transmission. * --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to:
RE: NRTL in the U.S.
Hello Gregg, Martin is correct that NRTL Listing is not a requirement to sell electronic products in the U.S. Product usage is something entirely different and may require compliance under OSHA regulations. Best regards, Ron Wellman At 09:50 AM 1/14/2003 -0500, Gregg Kervill wrote: Joe, You are correct that NRTL LISTING is a specified requirement by some cities and states. You are incorrect in that all products used where OSHA applies are required to be NRTL LISTED. NEC Code makes that same requirement Furthermore most (I have yet to find an exception) cities and states base their code upon NEC There may be local exception but I believe that to make a 'blanket statement that .. NRTL is not required in the US... is I believe at best confusing and at that the worst very dangerous. The following is a statement from the US NOL: All electrical equipment, except those kinds which no NRTL accepts, certifies, lists, labels, or otherwise determines to be safe, must be approved, as that term is defined at 29 CFR 1910.399. Except as indicated in the following this means that a NRTL must accept, certify, label, list, or otherwise determine that equipment is safe for it to be considered approved. The requirement mandating that electrical equipment be approved is set forth at 29 CFR 1910.303(a). Also, OSHA Standard 29 CFR 1910.303(b)(2) requires that approved equipment be used in conformance with its approval. Electrical equipment which no NRTL accepts, certifies, lists, labels, or determines to be safe is acceptable to OSHA under the following if the equipment is inspected or tested by another Federal Agency, or by a State, municipal, or other local authority responsible for enforcing occupational safety provisions of the NEC and found in compliance with the provisions of the NEC as applied to Subpart S of 29 CFR 1910 standards. Custom made equipment which is designed, fabricated for, and intended for use by a particular customer does not have to be approved if it is determined to be safe for its intended use by its manufacturer. The determination must be made on the basis of test data that the employer keeps and makes available to the Assistant Secretary of Labor for OSHA. In summary then if there are ten different models of a particular kind of equipment, but only one of them is accepted, certified, listed, labeled or otherwise determined to be safe by a NRTL only that one would be considered to be approved; unless of course it is custom made equipment. Only those entities that have applied and been approved pursuant to the requirements of 29 CFR 1910.7 are considered to be a NRTL. Recently the Canadian Standards Association was the first foreign laboratory approved as an NRTL. Enclosed find a copy of a directive that discusses NRTLs. Best regards Gregg Kervill Gregg Kervill DipIM, MIMgt, MIEEE VP Engineering Test4Safety.com Inc PO Box 310, Reedville, VA 22539. USA Phone ( 804) 453-3141 Fax(804) 453-9039 http://www.test4safety.com/ -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Joe P Martin Sent: Monday, January 13, 2003 11:22 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: NRTL in the U.S. Greetings, As has been discussed in previous threads, NRTL Listing is not a requirement to sell electronic products in the U.S. However, there are cities, counties, etc. within the U.S. that do require NRTL Listing. These include Los Angeles and Chicago. Does anyone have a comprehensive list of all the cities, counties or states that do require NRTL Listing. Any and all comments are appreciated. Regards Joe Martin Applied Biosystems marti...@appliedbiosystems.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy
Re: Draft RoH Directive
I read in !emc-pstc that richwo...@tycoint.com wrote (in 846BF526A205F8 4BA2B6045BBF7E9A6A04675B13@flbocexu05) about 'Draft RoH Directive' on Tue, 14 Jan 2003: Thus, it appears that, unless the draft Directive is revised or amended, the maximum allowable concentration values of the banned substances are zero parts per million. Am I reading this correctly? I really don't think so. Why don't you suggest zero parts per trillion? Octillion? 'No limit' means *NO* limit, not *zero* limit. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: EU bans certain flame retardants
Update: this ban is via the 24th ammendment to Directive 76/769/EEC. Richard Woods Sensormatic Electronics Tyco International -Original Message- From: WOODS, RICHARD Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 9:13 AM To: 'emc-pstc' Subject: EU bans certain flame retardants I found the following announcement on the Commission's website. European Parliament and EU ministers agree to ban potentially toxic flame retardants Enterprise Europe, Brussels, 18 December 2002 - The European Parliament today unanimously agreed to ban the marketing and use across the EU of the chemical flame retardants penta- and octabromodiphenyl ether (pentaBDE, octaBDE), from 1 July 2004. This decision was taken in a conciliation procedure after a careful risk assessment and in consultation with stakeholders and Member State experts. PentaBDE and octaBDE are used almost exclusively in flexible polyurethane foam furniture and upholstery such as mattresses, sofas and armchairs. PentaBDE and degradation products of octaBDE are bioaccumulating, have been found in human breast milk, and pose risks to the environment. The results of a further risk assessment on decabromodiphenyl ether (decaBDE) should be available by mid of next year. Further decisions to act on its results will take account of new scientific evidence, and the availability of reliable substitutes. I have two questions. 1) What Directive or other legal instrument does this ban fall under? 2) Can anyone state with a reasonable degree of certainty that these substances are not used as fire retardants in wiring insulation and plastics typically found in electronic equipment? Richard Woods Sensormatic Electronics Tyco International This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: Alternatives to Brominated Fire Retardants
I read in !emc-pstc that richwo...@tycoint.com wrote (in 846BF526A205F8 4BA2B6045BBF7E9A6A04675B15@flbocexu05) about 'Alternatives to Brominated Fire Retardants' on Tue, 14 Jan 2003: Does anyone know of web sites or other sources that describe feasible alternatives to bominated fire retardants in plastics? Not bominated but abominated. By no means all brominated flame-retardants are controlled. The ones that are still allowed tend to be more costly. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: Draft RoH Directive
I doubt that it should necessarily be zero. From my wire and cable days, there are test methods to determine the halogen content of zero halogenated materials (bromine is a halogen). Zero concentration is therefore, a relative term - it could be less than 1%. I think the reason that there is no maximum concentration specified yet is that there is no concensus and no harmonised standard test method yet. After all, this is still a draft proposal. Evangeline Cometa CSA International From: richwo...@tycoint.com [mailto:richwo...@tycoint.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 9:26 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Draft RoH Directive The draft of the RoH Directive bans, effective 1 July 2006, certain substances in new electrical and electronic equipment with certain listed exceptions. However, outside the exceptions, no maximum allowable concentration values of the banned substances is listed. Article 5 provides for future amendments to specify such maximum concentration values, but the values do not exist at this time. Thus, it appears that, unless the draft Directive is revised or amended, the maximum allowable concentration values of the banned substances are zero parts per million. Am I reading this correctly? Richard Woods Sensormatic Electronics Tyco International This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --IMPORTANT NOTICE-- This message is intended only for the use of the person or organization to which it is addressed, and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or responsible for delivering the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by email or telephone and delete the original message immediately. Thank you. This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: NRTL in the U.S.
Add Orange County California, City of San Francisco, states of Maryland (consumer products only as I recall), North Carolina and Washington. Richard Woods Sensormatic Electronics Tyco International From: Brian Epstein [mailto:brian.epst...@veeco.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 2:36 PM To: 'Ronald R. Wellman'; peter.a.manfredo...@us.ul.com; Joe P Martin Cc: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org; owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: NRTL in the U.S. Add Santa Clara County and the Commonwealth of Virginia to that list. Brian Epstein Sr Regulatory Compliance Engineer Veeco Instruments From: Ronald R. Wellman [mailto:rwell...@wellman.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 8:53 AM To: peter.a.manfredo...@us.ul.com; Joe P Martin Cc: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org; owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: NRTL in the U.S. Hello Peter, Those of us who have had to list products in the United States already know this. What is required by law versus what is a customer requirement are two different things. NRTL listing is a Customer requirement as viewed from a product manufacturer. However, there are some cities, states, and counties, that require NRTL listing by law. To answer Martin's question, I believe it is Cook County, Illinois and just the City (not county) of Los Angeles that require NRTL listing. I also remember that the State of Oregon requires NRTL listing as well as some counties in Florida. Best regards, Ron Wellman At 08:37 AM 1/14/2003 -0500, peter.a.manfredo...@us.ul.com wrote: Local municipalities throughout the U.S. adopt the National Electrical code NFPA 70 as a way to assure consistent administration and enforcement of a standardized electrical code. The Code provides that wiring and installed electrical equipment ...Need not be inspected at the time of installation of the equipment, except to detect alterations or damage, if the equipment has been LISTED by a qualified electrical testing laboratory Manfredonia Joe P Martin MartinJP@appliedbiosys To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org tems.com cc: Sent by: Subject: NRTL in the U.S. owner-emc-pstc@majordom o.ieee.org 01/13/2003 11:22 PM Please respond to Joe P Martin Greetings, As has been discussed in previous threads, NRTL Listing is not a requirement to sell electronic products in the U.S. However, there are cities, counties, etc. within the U.S. that do require NRTL Listing. These include Los Angeles and Chicago. Does anyone have a comprehensive list of all the cities, counties or states that do require NRTL Listing. Any and all comments are appreciated. Regards Joe Martin Applied Biosystems marti...@appliedbiosystems.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list -- For more information about UL, its Marks, and its services for EMC, quality registrations and product certifications for global markets, please access our web sites at http://www.ul.com and http://www.ulc.ca, or contact your local sales representative. -- * Internet E-mail Confidentiality Disclaimer ** This e-mail message may contain privileged or confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, you may not disclose, use, disseminate, distribute, copy or rely upon this message or attachment in any way. If you received this e-mail message in error, please return by forwarding the message and its attachments to the sender. Underwriters Laboratories Inc. and its affiliates do not accept liability for any errors, omissions, corruption or virus in the contents of this message or any attachments that arise as a result of e-mail transmission. * --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to:
RE: NRTL in the U.S.
The truth is that an independent licensed electrician will not connect a product that is not Listed. In commercial or industrial environments, there may be a Licensed Professional Engineer on staff, who can approve a product but he takes the personal liability for Non-Listed products. Manfredonia -- For more information about UL, its Marks, and its services for EMC, quality registrations and product certifications for global markets, please access our web sites at http://www.ul.com and http://www.ulc.ca, or contact your local sales representative. -- * Internet E-mail Confidentiality Disclaimer ** This e-mail message may contain privileged or confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, you may not disclose, use, disseminate, distribute, copy or rely upon this message or attachment in any way. If you received this e-mail message in error, please return by forwarding the message and its attachments to the sender. Underwriters Laboratories Inc. and its affiliates do not accept liability for any errors, omissions, corruption or virus in the contents of this message or any attachments that arise as a result of e-mail transmission. * This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: NRTL in the U.S.
Hi Joe: As has been discussed in previous threads, NRTL Listing is not a requirement to sell electronic products in the U.S. However, there are cities, counties, etc. within the U.S. that do require NRTL Listing. These include Los Angeles and Chicago. Does anyone have a comprehensive list of all the cities, counties or states that do require NRTL Listing. The list would be very much shorter if the list contained those cities or counties that do NOT require safety certification. (I would venture to say there are none.) You could probably get such a list from UL or CSA or MET or ETL other safety certification house that has applied for and been accepted in those jurisdictions. Just ask for a list of states, counties, and cities where their mark is accepted. Personally, I know of no city, county, or state that does not require safety certification (listing) of electrical products. Your mention of cities, counties, and states implies the local electrical code requirements (usually the NEC). NRTL is a concept of the Occupational Safety and Health Adminstration (OSHA). OSHA is a federal government entity that addresses workplace safety, not local electrical codes. NRTL certification of an electrical product used in the workplace satisfies an employer's requirement (under OSHA) to supply a safe electrical device for use by employees. There is no connection between local electrical codes and NRTL. But, we know what you mean! :-) Best regards, Rich This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: Alternatives to Brominated Fire Retardants
Hi Richard: Does anyone know of web sites or other sources that describe feasible alternatives to bominated fire retardants in plastics? There are a number of alternatives to brominated fire retardants: Phosphorus Mineral Phosphorus is probably the most-used. There are some other up-and-coming fire retardants, one of which, I believe, is sand (or silicon). You might try: www.polymeradditives.com to get an idea of the various fire retardant additives and manufacturers. Or, you can buy a good book on flame-retardants: International Plastics Flammability Handbook by Jurgen Troitzsch Hanser Publishers ISBN 3-446-15156-7 Carl Hanser Verlag, Munich ISBN 0-19-520797-1 Oxford University Press, New York Finally, check out: www.albermarle.com/saytexbrochf.htm This web site discusses some of the hazardous products of combustion from various brominated fire retardants. This web site may not be impartial. Best regards, Rich This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: NRTL in the U.S.
Does this apply to in-house test equipment? That is, equipment that is built in-house and remains on site? In the past I have designed in-house equipment to meet the safety standards but did not send the equipment out for testing and certification. Dave From: Gregg Kervill [mailto:gr...@test4safety.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 7:50 AM To: 'Joe P Martin'; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: NRTL in the U.S. Importance: High Joe, You are correct that NRTL LISTING is a specified requirement by some cities and states. You are incorrect in that all products used where OSHA applies are required to be NRTL LISTED. NEC Code makes that same requirement Furthermore most (I have yet to find an exception) cities and states base their code upon NEC There may be local exception but I believe that to make a 'blanket statement that .. NRTL is not required in the US... is I believe at best confusing and at that the worst very dangerous. The following is a statement from the US NOL: All electrical equipment, except those kinds which no NRTL accepts, certifies, lists, labels, or otherwise determines to be safe, must be approved, as that term is defined at 29 CFR 1910.399. Except as indicated in the following this means that a NRTL must accept, certify, label, list, or otherwise determine that equipment is safe for it to be considered approved. The requirement mandating that electrical equipment be approved is set forth at 29 CFR 1910.303(a). Also, OSHA Standard 29 CFR 1910.303(b)(2) requires that approved equipment be used in conformance with its approval. Electrical equipment which no NRTL accepts, certifies, lists, labels, or determines to be safe is acceptable to OSHA under the following if the equipment is inspected or tested by another Federal Agency, or by a State, municipal, or other local authority responsible for enforcing occupational safety provisions of the NEC and found in compliance with the provisions of the NEC as applied to Subpart S of 29 CFR 1910 standards. Custom made equipment which is designed, fabricated for, and intended for use by a particular customer does not have to be approved if it is determined to be safe for its intended use by its manufacturer. The determination must be made on the basis of test data that the employer keeps and makes available to the Assistant Secretary of Labor for OSHA. In summary then if there are ten different models of a particular kind of equipment, but only one of them is accepted, certified, listed, labeled or otherwise determined to be safe by a NRTL only that one would be considered to be approved; unless of course it is custom made equipment. Only those entities that have applied and been approved pursuant to the requirements of 29 CFR 1910.7 are considered to be a NRTL. Recently the Canadian Standards Association was the first foreign laboratory approved as an NRTL. Enclosed find a copy of a directive that discusses NRTLs. Best regards Gregg Kervill Gregg Kervill DipIM, MIMgt, MIEEE VP Engineering Test4Safety.com Inc PO Box 310, Reedville, VA 22539. USA Phone ( 804) 453-3141 Fax(804) 453-9039 http://www.test4safety.com/ From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Joe P Martin Sent: Monday, January 13, 2003 11:22 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: NRTL in the U.S. Greetings, As has been discussed in previous threads, NRTL Listing is not a requirement to sell electronic products in the U.S. However, there are cities, counties, etc. within the U.S. that do require NRTL Listing. These include Los Angeles and Chicago. Does anyone have a comprehensive list of all the cities, counties or states that do require NRTL Listing. Any and all comments are appreciated. Regards Joe Martin Applied Biosystems marti...@appliedbiosystems.com This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald:
Do spectrum analyzers play a role in EMC and EMCS?
I am a neophyte in this field and wondered whether a spectrum analyzer can be configured to check for those aspects in products? This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: NRTL in the U.S.
Hello Peter, Those of us who have had to list products in the United States already know this. What is required by law versus what is a customer requirement are two different things. NRTL listing is a Customer requirement as viewed from a product manufacturer. However, there are some cities, states, and counties, that require NRTL listing by law. To answer Martin's question, I believe it is Cook County, Illinois and just the City (not county) of Los Angeles that require NRTL listing. I also remember that the State of Oregon requires NRTL listing as well as some counties in Florida. Best regards, Ron Wellman At 08:37 AM 1/14/2003 -0500, peter.a.manfredo...@us.ul.com wrote: Local municipalities throughout the U.S. adopt the National Electrical code NFPA 70 as a way to assure consistent administration and enforcement of a standardized electrical code. The Code provides that wiring and installed electrical equipment ...Need not be inspected at the time of installation of the equipment, except to detect alterations or damage, if the equipment has been LISTED by a qualified electrical testing laboratory Manfredonia Joe P Martin MartinJP@appliedbiosys To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org tems.com cc: Sent by: Subject: NRTL in the U.S. owner-emc-pstc@majordom o.ieee.org 01/13/2003 11:22 PM Please respond to Joe P Martin Greetings, As has been discussed in previous threads, NRTL Listing is not a requirement to sell electronic products in the U.S. However, there are cities, counties, etc. within the U.S. that do require NRTL Listing. These include Los Angeles and Chicago. Does anyone have a comprehensive list of all the cities, counties or states that do require NRTL Listing. Any and all comments are appreciated. Regards Joe Martin Applied Biosystems marti...@appliedbiosystems.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list -- For more information about UL, its Marks, and its services for EMC, quality registrations and product certifications for global markets, please access our web sites at http://www.ul.com and http://www.ulc.ca, or contact your local sales representative. -- * Internet E-mail Confidentiality Disclaimer ** This e-mail message may contain privileged or confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, you may not disclose, use, disseminate, distribute, copy or rely upon this message or attachment in any way. If you received this e-mail message in error, please return by forwarding the message and its attachments to the sender. Underwriters Laboratories Inc. and its affiliates do not accept liability for any errors, omissions, corruption or virus in the contents of this message or any attachments that arise as a result of e-mail transmission. * --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron
RE: EU bans certain flame retardants
1. This ban probably falls under the safety aspects of the Low Voltage Directive which covers not just electrical risks from the use of electrical equipment but also chemical and mechanical. Another risk is the amount of and type of smoke generated in case of fire. 2. The European market has historically taken the leading approach towards discouraging the use of halogenated flame retardants, (FR), such as PVC and brominated substances. European suppliers have also pioneered zero-halogen FRs. Many companies have have it in their specifications requiring their suppliers to declare that their materials are non-brominated. Halogenated FR are still widely used in North America especially for wiring insulation because they are cheaper, can be processed using traditional extrusion methods and more effective as flame retardants. I am afraid you have to ask your supplier if you want to know if a particular component is brominated or not. Evangeline Cometa Assistance to Exporters CSA International From: richwo...@tycoint.com [mailto:richwo...@tycoint.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 9:13 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: EU bans certain flame retardants I found the following announcement on the Commission's website. European Parliament and EU ministers agree to ban potentially toxic flame retardants Enterprise Europe, Brussels, 18 December 2002 - The European Parliament today unanimously agreed to ban the marketing and use across the EU of the chemical flame retardants penta- and octabromodiphenyl ether (pentaBDE, octaBDE), from 1 July 2004. This decision was taken in a conciliation procedure after a careful risk assessment and in consultation with stakeholders and Member State experts. PentaBDE and octaBDE are used almost exclusively in flexible polyurethane foam furniture and upholstery such as mattresses, sofas and armchairs. PentaBDE and degradation products of octaBDE are bioaccumulating, have been found in human breast milk, and pose risks to the environment. The results of a further risk assessment on decabromodiphenyl ether (decaBDE) should be available by mid of next year. Further decisions to act on its results will take account of new scientific evidence, and the availability of reliable substitutes. I have two questions. 1) What Directive or other legal instrument does this ban fall under? 2) Can anyone state with a reasonable degree of certainty that these substances are not used as fire retardants in wiring insulation and plastics typically found in electronic equipment? Richard Woods Sensormatic Electronics Tyco International This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --IMPORTANT NOTICE-- This message is intended only for the use of the person or organization to which it is addressed, and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or responsible for delivering the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by email or telephone and delete the original message immediately. Thank you. This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: EN55024 - Burst / fast transient test
Amund, EN55024:1998 Table 2 2.3 for the EN16000-4-4 Electrical Fast Transient/Burst (EFTB) test refers to note 3, which says Applicable only to cables which according to the manufacturer's specification supports communication cable lengths greater than 3 m. Please note that EN55024:1998 replaces this table as one of the COMMON MODIFICATIONS to IEC CISPR 24:1997. John Barnes KS4GL, PE, NCE, ESDC Eng, SM IEEE dBi Corporation http://www.dbicorporation.com/ This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: Fiber optic cable testing per EN 55022:1998 ?
The Kerr Effect and Faraday rotation are DEFINITELY NOT arguments for interaction between electromagnetic fields and the propagation of light waves. For those interested in the details, read on. The Kerr effect is an interaction between an electric field and a transparent medium. When the medium properties change due to the application of the field, this in turn affects how light is transmitted through the medium - the light itself is not interacting with the electric field. See: http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/KerrEffect.html Similarly for Faraday rotation; the effect is to the medium through which light travels, not the light itself. In particular: More than 150 years ago, Michael Faraday discovered that linearly polarized light traveling through a substance experiences a rotation when a magnetic field is applied to the material. The amount of rotation (R) was found to be proportional to the magnitude of the magnetic field (B) and to the length of the sample (l), R = V B l, where the constant of proportionality (V) is called the Verdet constant. A linearly polarized beam of light, one that has a unique E-vector direction, can be decomposed into two circularly polarized beams of equal intensity. These right- and left-circularly polarized beams propagate simultaneously but are independent of each other (orthogonal). An applied magnetic field causes the material to become optically active. This produces different refractive indices for the two beams, whereby they travel at different phase velocities. Thus when the two beams exit the material they have a different phase relationship, which is manifest in a rotation of the E-vector of the combined beams. From: Faraday Rotation Physics 1555 -- Waves and Optics Lab -- Winter 2002 D. Heiman, Northeastern University, 3/1/02 Ken Javor From: Michael Mertinooke mertino...@skyskan.com To: Ken Javor ken.ja...@emccompliance.com Subject: RE: Fiber optic cable testing per EN 55022:1998 ? Date: Mon, Jan 13, 2003, 9:08 AM Check out the Kerr Effect (aka the quadratic electro-optic effect) , and Faraday Rotation. Light can very definitely be affected by electric and magnetic fields. Mike -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Ken Javor Sent: Friday, January 10, 2003 6:02 PM To: Peter L. Tarver; PSTC Subject: Re: Fiber optic cable testing per EN 55022:1998 ? I had forgotten the terminology, and what Mr. Tarver related about the classes is true, but it is not true that electric or magnetic fields should theoretically be able to interact with a stream of photons. -- From: Peter L. Tarver peter.tar...@sanmina-sci.com To: PSTC emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Fiber optic cable testing per EN 55022:1998 ? Date: Fri, Jan 10, 2003, 3:53 PM You're partially correct, Ken. However, the photon (in quantum mechanics) is the particle that mediates the electromagnetic force; photon also the name given to the particle that is a quantum of electromagnetic energy. Thus, photons are involved as the particle analog to an electromagnetic wave. Also, an electron beam is not identical to an electromagnetic wave in the sense you are trying to characterize them. The primary difference between bosons (photons are bosons) and fermions (which leptons are classified as; electrons are leptons) is boson have integer spins, while fermions have fractional spins (spin is a classification of intrinsic angular momentum) and bosons are not constrained by the Pauli Exclusion Principle, whereas fermions are. This does not address why an electromagnetic wave of longer wavelength may be redirected by the presence of an external magnetic or electric field, while light is less affected. More properly, it is not an electron that creates an electromagnetic wave, it's charge; electrons just happen to possess a quantum of electric charge. An electric charge at rest radiates an electric field. An electric charge in motion creates a magnetic field, irrespective of acceleration. Theoretically, it should be possible to magnetically or electrically redirect light. By definition, light is visible and exists only between the wavelengths of 700 nm-400 nm. Light and optical radiation has been extended to other wavelengths (ir and uv) in the common vernacular mostly because of lasers being used at those wavelengths. Regards, Peter L. Tarver, PE Product Safety Manager Sanmina-SCI Homologation Services peter.tar...@sanmina-sci.com From: Ken Javor Sent: Friday, January 10, 2003 9:24 AM The answer is independent of frequency, it is the nature of the particle (electron vs. photon) that is key. I have forgotten the terminology, but one type of particle is called a boson, and per my (quite possibly faulty) recollection, bosons do not interact with electromagnetic
Alternatives to Brominated Fire Retardants
Does anyone know of web sites or other sources that describe feasible alternatives to bominated fire retardants in plastics? Richard Woods Sensormatic Electronics Tyco International This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: EN55024 - Burst / fast transient test
Amund, CISPR24, Clause 4.2.2 Electrical fast transients - interface ports, which are intended by the mftr to be connected to data cables not longer than 3 meter, shall not be tested. Regards, Kris From: Amund Westin [mailto:am...@westin-emission.no] Sent: dinsdag 14 januari 2003 13:25 To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: EN55024 - Burst / fast transient test Does Burst testing apply for I/O cables with length less than 3 meters according to EN55024? I recall that some EN standards have a statement that Burst in does not apply on I/O cables less than 3 meters. Yes, I will buy the standard so we can follow it in detail. Amund This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Draft RoH Directive
The draft of the RoH Directive bans, effective 1 July 2006, certain substances in new electrical and electronic equipment with certain listed exceptions. However, outside the exceptions, no maximum allowable concentration values of the banned substances is listed. Article 5 provides for future amendments to specify such maximum concentration values, but the values do not exist at this time. Thus, it appears that, unless the draft Directive is revised or amended, the maximum allowable concentration values of the banned substances are zero parts per million. Am I reading this correctly? Richard Woods Sensormatic Electronics Tyco International This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: NRTL in the U.S.
Joe, You are correct that NRTL LISTING is a specified requirement by some cities and states. You are incorrect in that all products used where OSHA applies are required to be NRTL LISTED. NEC Code makes that same requirement Furthermore most (I have yet to find an exception) cities and states base their code upon NEC There may be local exception but I believe that to make a 'blanket statement that .. NRTL is not required in the US... is I believe at best confusing and at that the worst very dangerous. The following is a statement from the US NOL: All electrical equipment, except those kinds which no NRTL accepts, certifies, lists, labels, or otherwise determines to be safe, must be approved, as that term is defined at 29 CFR 1910.399. Except as indicated in the following this means that a NRTL must accept, certify, label, list, or otherwise determine that equipment is safe for it to be considered approved. The requirement mandating that electrical equipment be approved is set forth at 29 CFR 1910.303(a). Also, OSHA Standard 29 CFR 1910.303(b)(2) requires that approved equipment be used in conformance with its approval. Electrical equipment which no NRTL accepts, certifies, lists, labels, or determines to be safe is acceptable to OSHA under the following if the equipment is inspected or tested by another Federal Agency, or by a State, municipal, or other local authority responsible for enforcing occupational safety provisions of the NEC and found in compliance with the provisions of the NEC as applied to Subpart S of 29 CFR 1910 standards. Custom made equipment which is designed, fabricated for, and intended for use by a particular customer does not have to be approved if it is determined to be safe for its intended use by its manufacturer. The determination must be made on the basis of test data that the employer keeps and makes available to the Assistant Secretary of Labor for OSHA. In summary then if there are ten different models of a particular kind of equipment, but only one of them is accepted, certified, listed, labeled or otherwise determined to be safe by a NRTL only that one would be considered to be approved; unless of course it is custom made equipment. Only those entities that have applied and been approved pursuant to the requirements of 29 CFR 1910.7 are considered to be a NRTL. Recently the Canadian Standards Association was the first foreign laboratory approved as an NRTL. Enclosed find a copy of a directive that discusses NRTLs. Best regards Gregg Kervill Gregg Kervill DipIM, MIMgt, MIEEE VP Engineering Test4Safety.com Inc PO Box 310, Reedville, VA 22539. USA Phone ( 804) 453-3141 Fax(804) 453-9039 http://www.test4safety.com/ From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Joe P Martin Sent: Monday, January 13, 2003 11:22 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: NRTL in the U.S. Greetings, As has been discussed in previous threads, NRTL Listing is not a requirement to sell electronic products in the U.S. However, there are cities, counties, etc. within the U.S. that do require NRTL Listing. These include Los Angeles and Chicago. Does anyone have a comprehensive list of all the cities, counties or states that do require NRTL Listing. Any and all comments are appreciated. Regards Joe Martin Applied Biosystems marti...@appliedbiosystems.com This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: Notification required?
There are two issues here. First, how does one know for a legal fact that frequency band has been harmonized? That is not clear to me unless it get published in the OJ. Second, if a band is harmonized, there is no legal way a member country can force you into Notification since the RTTE Directive says you don't have to. Regards, Richard Woods Sensormatic Electronics Tyco International From: has...@a-pex.co.jp [mailto:has...@a-pex.co.jp] Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 3:51 AM To: Hans Mellberg Cc: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: Notification required? Dear Hans, I think you should notify several EU countries in spite of harmonization. Because I have inquired to each authorities about this issue along http://europa.eu.int/comm/enterprise/rtte/listeq.htm, Luxembourg, Spain, Sweden, UK, Portugal and Greece still require notification. Best regards, Tetsuya Hashimoto A-PEX International Co.,Ltd. 2003/01/14 7:14:38、Hans Mellbergさんは「Notification required?」で書きまし た For a 2.4GHz SRD, I believe that this is now harmonized. Are individual country notifications still required? Thanks in advance Hans Mellberg This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
EU bans certain flame retardants
I found the following announcement on the Commission's website. European Parliament and EU ministers agree to ban potentially toxic flame retardants Enterprise Europe, Brussels, 18 December 2002 - The European Parliament today unanimously agreed to ban the marketing and use across the EU of the chemical flame retardants penta- and octabromodiphenyl ether (pentaBDE, octaBDE), from 1 July 2004. This decision was taken in a conciliation procedure after a careful risk assessment and in consultation with stakeholders and Member State experts. PentaBDE and octaBDE are used almost exclusively in flexible polyurethane foam furniture and upholstery such as mattresses, sofas and armchairs. PentaBDE and degradation products of octaBDE are bioaccumulating, have been found in human breast milk, and pose risks to the environment. The results of a further risk assessment on decabromodiphenyl ether (decaBDE) should be available by mid of next year. Further decisions to act on its results will take account of new scientific evidence, and the availability of reliable substitutes. I have two questions. 1) What Directive or other legal instrument does this ban fall under? 2) Can anyone state with a reasonable degree of certainty that these substances are not used as fire retardants in wiring insulation and plastics typically found in electronic equipment? Richard Woods Sensormatic Electronics Tyco International This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: NRTL in the U.S.
Local municipalities throughout the U.S. adopt the National Electrical code NFPA 70 as a way to assure consistent administration and enforcement of a standardized electrical code. The Code provides that wiring and installed electrical equipment ...Need not be inspected at the time of installation of the equipment, except to detect alterations or damage, if the equipment has been LISTED by a qualified electrical testing laboratory Manfredonia Joe P Martin MartinJP@appliedbiosys To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org tems.com cc: Sent by: Subject: NRTL in the U.S. owner-emc-pstc@majordom o.ieee.org 01/13/2003 11:22 PM Please respond to Joe P Martin Greetings, As has been discussed in previous threads, NRTL Listing is not a requirement to sell electronic products in the U.S. However, there are cities, counties, etc. within the U.S. that do require NRTL Listing. These include Los Angeles and Chicago. Does anyone have a comprehensive list of all the cities, counties or states that do require NRTL Listing. Any and all comments are appreciated. Regards Joe Martin Applied Biosystems marti...@appliedbiosystems.com This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list -- For more information about UL, its Marks, and its services for EMC, quality registrations and product certifications for global markets, please access our web sites at http://www.ul.com and http://www.ulc.ca, or contact your local sales representative. -- * Internet E-mail Confidentiality Disclaimer ** This e-mail message may contain privileged or confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, you may not disclose, use, disseminate, distribute, copy or rely upon this message or attachment in any way. If you received this e-mail message in error, please return by forwarding the message and its attachments to the sender. Underwriters Laboratories Inc. and its affiliates do not accept liability for any errors, omissions, corruption or virus in the contents of this message or any attachments that arise as a result of e-mail transmission. * This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are
EN55024 - Burst / fast transient test
Does Burst testing apply for I/O cables with length less than 3 meters according to EN55024? I recall that some EN standards have a statement that Burst in does not apply on I/O cables less than 3 meters. Yes, I will buy the standard so we can follow it in detail. Amund This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: Notification required?
Dear Hans, I think you should notify several EU countries in spite of harmonization. Because I have inquired to each authorities about this issue along http://europa.eu.int/comm/enterprise/rtte/listeq.htm, Luxembourg, Spain, Sweden, UK, Portugal and Greece still require notification. Best regards, Tetsuya Hashimoto A-PEX International Co.,Ltd. 2003/01/14 7:14:38、Hans Mellbergさんは「Notification required?」で書きまし た For a 2.4GHz SRD, I believe that this is now harmonized. Are individual country notifications still required? Thanks in advance Hans Mellberg This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
NRTL in the U.S.
Greetings, As has been discussed in previous threads, NRTL Listing is not a requirement to sell electronic products in the U.S. However, there are cities, counties, etc. within the U.S. that do require NRTL Listing. These include Los Angeles and Chicago. Does anyone have a comprehensive list of all the cities, counties or states that do require NRTL Listing. Any and all comments are appreciated. Regards Joe Martin Applied Biosystems marti...@appliedbiosystems.com This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
