Re: [PSES] SELV/PELV power supplies

[John Woodgate]

In message 

, dated Fri, 5 Sep 2014, "Nyffenegger, Dave" 
 writes:


Yes, I meant another standard specific to power supplies, compliance to 
which would without a doubt include SELV rating. -Dave


Well, IEC/EN 61204-7 is a safety standard specific to power supplies but 
what it says about SELV I don't know.

--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
Quid faciamus nisi sit?
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

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Re: [PSES] Battery certification issue

[Boštjan Glavič]

Dear Sudhakar,

So what is the point being member of CB scheme if they do not accept results 
from IECEE CB report? This is in contradiction to CB scheme idea which points 
out "one time testing". US national standard is also UL 60950-1 but they accept 
IECEE report if national differences are applied. I think it is just a politics 
and money collection.

Best regards,
Bostjan

From: sudhakar wasnik [mailto:008dfaa51ca2-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org]
Sent: Friday, September 05, 2014 3:27 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Battery certification issue


India is a CB scheme member, However the " Mandatory (Compulsory) registration 
of ITE and A/V products is a national registration scheme.  As it is the 
national scheme, India insist on in-country testing at BIS( Bureau of Indian 
Standards) certified labs.  The applicable standard is BIS ... and not IEC/EN 
60950-1.

Best,

Sudhakar


On Thursday, September 4, 2014 1:02 PM, John Woodgate 
mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk>> wrote:

In message

, dated Thu, 4 Sep 2014, "Tyra, John"  writes:

>India is a member if the CB scheme yet they will not accept CB
>certifications and reports for the recent mandatory certification
>scheme that was rolled out in that country. They insist they must do
>complete retesting.
>
>There was a recent IECEE vote to suspend their membership in the CB
>Scheme which I read recently failed so they are still a member so I am
>not so sure it is an issue for an NCB to reject another NCB members
>report.

But this is politics at work, not science and engineering.
--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See 
www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
Quid faciamus nisi sit?
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

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Re: [PSES] RF shielding in clothing.

[dward]

Probably from the same people that brought you snake oil and the like.

 

 

​

Dennis Ward

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From: Doug Powell [mailto:doug...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Thursday, September 4, 2014 6:01 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] RF shielding in clothing.

 

‎All,

 

This is probably a curiosity. I ran across this article that claims to shield 
cell phones from hackers at specific operating frequencies. 

 

‎http://www.engadget.com/2014/09/04/1984-anti-surveillance-fashion/?utm_medium=feed&utm_source=Feed_Classic&utm_campaign=Engadget&ncid=rss_semi

 

Has anyone here ‎had experience with this fabric and does it actually work?

 

Thanks, - doug

Douglas Powell
http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01   

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Re: [PSES] SELV/PELV power supplies

[Nyffenegger, Dave]

Yes, I meant another standard specific to power supplies, compliance to which 
would without a doubt include SELV rating.
-Dave

-Original Message-
From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk] 
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2014 9:05 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] SELV/PELV power supplies

In message

, dated Thu, 4 Sep 2014, "Nyffenegger, Dave" 
 writes:

>The main question is  whether the supplies meet the SELV criteria for 
>keeping the output voltage limited under the internal  fault condition 
>if they claim compliance with UL 508 and EN 60950-1 but do not 
>specifically mention anything about meeting SELV.

The supplies must meet the insulation requirements to claim any sort of 
compliance at all. The voltage requirements under single-fault conditions would 
be extra; probably they would be met but it's not certain.
>
>Or to re-phrase the other question,  is there another standard that 
>also specifically meets the requirements for SELV?

You mean another standard for complete power supplies?
>
You could look at standards in the IEC/EN 61204 series. See:

http://www.iec.ch/dyn/www/f?p=103:22:0FSP_ORG_ID:1414

on the public part of the IEC web site.
--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Quid 
faciamus nisi sit?
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

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Re: [PSES] RF shielding in clothing.

[Doug Powell]

Larry,Thanks for your responses. I have seen this sort of thing before. I seem to recall someone selling a type of RF absorbing ointment for your skin, a power cord that cleans the power from your outlet before it gets to your audio system and so on. While there may be some effect, I think this is mostly snake oil.  Thanks, - dougDouglas Powellhttp://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01    From: Larry K. StillingsSent: Thursday, September 4, 2014 8:03 PMTo: Doug Powell; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGSubject: RE: [PSES] RF shielding in clothing.All, And just to comment further on this. If the fabric really did work, then your battery would be dead because it would be in constant high power mode trying to find an available cell tower, which means each time you placed it in this magic fabric you would have to turn your phone off. Now wouldn’t that accomplish the same goal?Larry From: Doug Powell [mailto:doug...@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2014 9:01 PMTo: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGSubject: [PSES] RF shielding in clothing. ‎All, This is probably a curiosity. I ran across this article that claims to shield cell phones from hackers at specific operating frequencies.  ‎http://www.engadget.com/2014/09/04/1984-anti-surveillance-fashion/?utm_medium=feed&utm_source=Feed_Classic&utm_campaign=Engadget&ncid=rss_semi Has anyone here ‎had experience with this fabric and does it actually work? Thanks, - dougDouglas Powellhttp://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01   -This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.htmlAttachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators:Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell  For policy questions, send mail to:Jim Bacher David Heald  
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Re: [PSES] RF shielding in clothing.

[Larry K. Stillings]

All,

 

And just to comment further on this. If the fabric really did work, then your 
battery would be dead because it would be in constant high power mode trying to 
find an available cell tower, which means each time you placed it in this magic 
fabric you would have to turn your phone off. Now wouldn’t that accomplish the 
same goal?

Larry

 

From: Doug Powell [mailto:doug...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2014 9:01 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] RF shielding in clothing.

 

‎All,

 

This is probably a curiosity. I ran across this article that claims to shield 
cell phones from hackers at specific operating frequencies. 

 

‎http://www.engadget.com/2014/09/04/1984-anti-surveillance-fashion/?utm_medium=feed&utm_source=Feed_Classic&utm_campaign=Engadget&ncid=rss_semi

 

Has anyone here ‎had experience with this fabric and does it actually work?

 

Thanks, - doug

Douglas Powell
http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01   

-


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Re: [PSES] RF shielding in clothing.

[Larry K. Stillings]

Doug,

 

Until the article also said it blocked 13.56 MHz (RFID), it was Almost 
believable. But no way does “police grade shielding fabric” whatever that 
nonsense means blocks 13.56 to 2.4 GHz.

 

You’d be better off wrapping your cell phone in aluminum foil, and might as 
well wear a hat made out of aluminum foil, so the authorities can’t scan your 
brain waves.

 

Hurry now prices are sure to go up, who gets paid to write this stuff.

 

Larry 

 

From: Doug Powell [mailto:doug...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2014 9:01 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] RF shielding in clothing.

 

‎All,

 

This is probably a curiosity. I ran across this article that claims to shield 
cell phones from hackers at specific operating frequencies. 

 

‎http://www.engadget.com/2014/09/04/1984-anti-surveillance-fashion/?utm_medium=feed&utm_source=Feed_Classic&utm_campaign=Engadget&ncid=rss_semi

 

Has anyone here ‎had experience with this fabric and does it actually work?

 

Thanks, - doug

Douglas Powell
http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01   

-


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Re: [PSES] Battery certification issue

[sudhakar wasnik]

 

India is a CB scheme member, However the " Mandatory (Compulsory) registration 
of ITE and A/V products is a national registration scheme.  As it is the 
national scheme, India insist on in-country testing at BIS( Bureau of Indian 
Standards) certified labs.  The applicable standard is BIS ... and not IEC/EN 
60950-1.

Best, 

Sudhakar 




On Thursday, September 4, 2014 1:02 PM, John Woodgate  
wrote:
  


In message 

, dated Thu, 4 Sep 2014, "Tyra, John"  writes:

>India is a member if the CB scheme yet they will not accept CB 
>certifications and reports for the recent mandatory certification 
>scheme that was rolled out in that country. They insist they must do 
>complete retesting.
>
>There was a recent IECEE vote to suspend their membership in the CB 
>Scheme which I read recently failed so they are still a member so I am 
>not so sure it is an issue for an NCB to reject another NCB members 
>report.

But this is politics at work, not science and engineering.
-- 
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
Quid faciamus nisi sit?
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

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[PSES] RF shielding in clothing.

[Doug Powell]

 ‎All,This is probably a curiosity. I ran across this article that claims to shield cell phones from hackers at specific operating frequencies. ‎http://www.engadget.com/2014/09/04/1984-anti-surveillance-fashion/?utm_medium=feed&utm_source=Feed_Classic&utm_campaign=Engadget&ncid=rss_semiHas anyone here ‎had experience with this fabric and does it actually work?Thanks, - dougDouglas Powellhttp://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01   
-

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Re: [PSES] FCC EMI Test and Ferrites on Cables - a conundrum

[Ravinder Ajmani]

A generation ago I was involved with EMI testing of computer products.  Most of 
the products our lab tested were PCs (XT, AT), and peripherals (printers, 
monitors, Modems, Display Adapters, etc).  Printer cable was always a key 
issue.  We would always use Belden cables with the printers, as they were 
double shielded with proper shield termination.  If ferrite clamps were 
required to pass then the report would state it, and customer would be advised 
to provide the ferrite clamps with the product.

Regards
Ravinder Ajmani
HGST, a Western Digital company
5601 Great Oaks Pkwy
San Jose, CA 95119-1003
ravinder.ajm...@hgst.com

-Original Message-
From: Gary McInturff [mailto:gary.mcintu...@esterline.com] 
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2014 9:31 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] FCC EMI Test and Ferrites on Cables - a conundrum

Playing the devil advocate here only because I find this interesting and I'm 
not advocating anything. Heck I'm probably just arguing for argument sake. 

 If all cables are not equal as Ghery and note and the designer/manufacturer 
has knowledge of that don't the cables then become special accessories in their 
own right? Under 15.27 c) They would not normally be considered special 
accessory items  under the definition because they can be easily purchased at a 
multitude of locations.
15.27 c) Accessory items that can be readily obtained from multiple 
retail outlets are NOT (my emphasis)  considered to be special accessories ...  
But given the knowledge of the designer/manufacturer that cables vary in 
performance and not all cables were tested the only assurance they have that 
the system will perform as intended is buy telling the consumer exactly which 
cable they must use buy name and brand. But if they do that then the cable 
isn't "readily obtained from multiple outlets" and is now by definition a 
special accessory. Paragraph 15.27 says that "The party responsible for the 
equipment, as detailed in §2.909 of this chapter, shall ensure that these 
special accessories are provided with the equipment" So now must the cable be 
provided?


Gmac

-Original Message-
From: Pettit, Ghery [mailto:ghery.pet...@intel.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2014 12:46 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] FCC EMI Test and Ferrites on Cables

You are highly unlikely to find the ferrite prayer beads at Best Buy.  If you 
don't specify which ones to get you have no idea what the result will be.  I 
think you are correct, the beads must be shipped with the product.  The right 
ones, to boot.

Now, how does the designer know that he needs ferrite beads?  My experience has 
been that many (most?) HDMI cables do not have their shields terminated 
properly, if at all.  Once the shields are terminated correctly problems go 
away.  Could this be a better solution?

Ghery S. Pettit

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Re: [PSES] Battery certification issue

[Kevin Robinson]

Hi Brian,

You stated : "Do not understand the statement that components are not
covered by NRTL program, as the standards list does include component
standards: www.osha.gov/dts/otpca/nrtl/list_standards.html"

In short, we know, and we are attempting to clean up that list to remove
standards that should no longer be on there (or ones that never should have
been added to the list that somehow were added).  The first of what will
likely be many Federal Register notices dealing with the list of
appropriate test standards:
http://www.regulations.gov/#!documentDetail;D=OSHA-2013-0012-0004 .  Many
standards that could be considered component only standards do apply in
some instances to end products (ex. motors, transformers etc.).
 Internally, it is a discussion that we have all the time, and we do
receive comments that recommend the addition or deletion of test standards.

Kevin Robinson
Electrical Engineer & Senior Assessor
OSHA NRTL Program
robinson.ke...@dol.gov
202-693-1911


On Thu, Sep 4, 2014 at 4:16 PM, Brian Oconnell 
wrote:

> As previously stated to Mr. Robinson, the industrial compliance
> engineering community very much appreciates his support of our concerns and
> ideas. Good people, this is our chance to provide some relevant industry
> comments. For example, for some product classes the default factory FUS
> audit interval should be no more than twice per year where the site has not
> received any variation notices, and there are no new product classes added
> to production. NRTLs should not be allowed to use the factory audit system
> as a profit center. Many other ideas, so let us write (link in below
> message).
>
> Do not understand the statement that components are not covered by NRTL
> program, as the standards list does include component standards:
> www.osha.gov/dts/otpca/nrtl/list_standards.html
> Perhaps there are differences in implementation. Note that a few AHJs will
> actually look up a component's 'recognition' to see if the scoped standard
> was on the NRTL list.
>
> Brian
>
>
> From: Kevin Robinson [mailto:kevinrobinso...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2014 12:15 PM
> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> Subject: Re: [PSES] Battery certification issue
>
> I do want to chime in here on a few issues to stop any misconceptions
> about the NRTL program.  First a disclaimer, in my former life, I worked
> for an NRTL, I now work for OSHA in the office that oversees the NRTL
> program.
>
> The NRTL Program applies ONLY to end products used in the workplace.  It
> does not apply to component power supplies, plastic materials used to make
> enclosures, transformers, switches etc. that are used to make up end
> products.  OSHA has no authority to regulate components (as they typically
> can't be used in the workplace alone), and as a result, components are not
> covered under the NRTL Program.  It is true that many organizations
> recognized by OSHA as NRTLs do issue certifications on components, however,
> they are doing so outside of their NRTL scope of recognition, and OSHA does
> not oversee the activities that an organization we recognize does with
> respect to components.  A common complaint that I hear is the policies of
> some NRTLs as to the acceptance of component recognitions.  As the NRTL
> program does not cover components, and OSHA has no authority to require one
> NRTL to accept component recognition from another NRTL (that authority lies
> with other Federal agencies !
>  if the policies are determined to be anti-competitive).
>
> With that said, OSHA and the NRTL Program do recognize the importance that
> component recognitions play in product safety certifications, and we do
> allow NRTLs to accept component certifications from another NRTL provided
> they can demonstrate that they have reviewed the component certification
> documents to ensure that the component is being properly used, and that the
> organization that granted the certification had the specific standard in
> their NRTL scope.
>
> As for mutual recognition of one NRTL's certification for an end product,
> again, OSHA does not have the authority to require one NRTL to accept
> certifications from another NRTL.  We do allow this, and we have
> established some guidelines if an NRTL does accept certifications from
> another NRTL, but we can not require an NRTL to do this.  Fortunately, it
> is very rare when an end product certified by NRTL #1 is then submitted to
> NRTL #2.
>
>
> John Tyra was sharing his experiences when working a an NRTL 20 years ago.
>  I can say that times have changed.  20 years ago, the NRTL program was
> only 5 years old, and the assessors were borrowed from other federal
> agencies.  The only guidance that OSHA or NRTLs had was what was written in
> the regulations (29 CFR 1910.7) which provides a very high level approach
> to the program.  The NRTL Program within OSHA is a very small group (we
> currently have a staff of 4 people), 50% of whom are ex-NRTL employees, so
> 

Re: [PSES] Battery certification issue

[Tyra, John]

That may be true John, but from experience I have found NCB's not accepting 
data from another NCB has rarely been related to science and/or engineering 
reasons.

-Original Message-
From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk] 
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2014 4:02 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Battery certification issue

In message

, dated Thu, 4 Sep 2014, "Tyra, John"  writes:

>India is a member if the CB scheme yet they will not accept CB 
>certifications and reports for the recent mandatory certification 
>scheme that was rolled out in that country. They insist they must do 
>complete retesting.
>
>There was a recent IECEE vote to suspend their membership in the CB 
>Scheme which I read recently failed so they are still a member so I am 
>not so sure it is an issue for an NCB to reject another NCB members 
>report.

But this is politics at work, not science and engineering.
--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Quid 
faciamus nisi sit?
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

-

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discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
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formats), large files, etc.

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Mike Cantwell 

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Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

-

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All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

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Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] Battery certification issue

[Brian Oconnell]

As previously stated to Mr. Robinson, the industrial compliance engineering 
community very much appreciates his support of our concerns and ideas. Good 
people, this is our chance to provide some relevant industry comments. For 
example, for some product classes the default factory FUS audit interval should 
be no more than twice per year where the site has not received any variation 
notices, and there are no new product classes added to production. NRTLs should 
not be allowed to use the factory audit system as a profit center. Many other 
ideas, so let us write (link in below message).

Do not understand the statement that components are not covered by NRTL 
program, as the standards list does include component standards: 
www.osha.gov/dts/otpca/nrtl/list_standards.html
Perhaps there are differences in implementation. Note that a few AHJs will 
actually look up a component's 'recognition' to see if the scoped standard was 
on the NRTL list.

Brian


From: Kevin Robinson [mailto:kevinrobinso...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2014 12:15 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Battery certification issue

I do want to chime in here on a few issues to stop any misconceptions about the 
NRTL program.  First a disclaimer, in my former life, I worked for an NRTL, I 
now work for OSHA in the office that oversees the NRTL program.

The NRTL Program applies ONLY to end products used in the workplace.  It does 
not apply to component power supplies, plastic materials used to make 
enclosures, transformers, switches etc. that are used to make up end products.  
OSHA has no authority to regulate components (as they typically can't be used 
in the workplace alone), and as a result, components are not covered under the 
NRTL Program.  It is true that many organizations recognized by OSHA as NRTLs 
do issue certifications on components, however, they are doing so outside of 
their NRTL scope of recognition, and OSHA does not oversee the activities that 
an organization we recognize does with respect to components.  A common 
complaint that I hear is the policies of some NRTLs as to the acceptance of 
component recognitions.  As the NRTL program does not cover components, and 
OSHA has no authority to require one NRTL to accept component recognition from 
another NRTL (that authority lies with other Federal agencies !
 if the policies are determined to be anti-competitive).

With that said, OSHA and the NRTL Program do recognize the importance that 
component recognitions play in product safety certifications, and we do allow 
NRTLs to accept component certifications from another NRTL provided they can 
demonstrate that they have reviewed the component certification documents to 
ensure that the component is being properly used, and that the organization 
that granted the certification had the specific standard in their NRTL scope.

As for mutual recognition of one NRTL's certification for an end product, 
again, OSHA does not have the authority to require one NRTL to accept 
certifications from another NRTL.  We do allow this, and we have established 
some guidelines if an NRTL does accept certifications from another NRTL, but we 
can not require an NRTL to do this.  Fortunately, it is very rare when an end 
product certified by NRTL #1 is then submitted to NRTL #2.


John Tyra was sharing his experiences when working a an NRTL 20 years ago.  I 
can say that times have changed.  20 years ago, the NRTL program was only 5 
years old, and the assessors were borrowed from other federal agencies.  The 
only guidance that OSHA or NRTLs had was what was written in the regulations 
(29 CFR 1910.7) which provides a very high level approach to the program.  The 
NRTL Program within OSHA is a very small group (we currently have a staff of 4 
people), 50% of whom are ex-NRTL employees, so we now have the expertise to dig 
deeper into the capabilities.  In the late 1990's, OSHA did publish additional 
guidance for the NRTLs, although, there has been only minor updates since that 
time.  I am very happy to say that we will soon (hopefully this week) be 
releasing portions of an updated draft directive (OSHA Policies and procedures) 
for the NRTL program that align our requirements with ISO 17025 & 17065.  On 
October 22, we will be holding a stakeholder mee!
 ting to discuss which direction to take the program in the future, and whether 
those changes will require rule making which can be a lengthy process.  Some of 
the topics presented in this thread will be discussed at this meeting.  While 
registration for the meeting has officially closed, we so still have space 
available for those who are interested in attending as an observer.  Details on 
the meeting are available here: 
http://www.regulations.gov/#!docketDetail;D=OSHA-2013-0028.  If you are 
interested in attending this meeting, please send an e-mail to 
nrtlprog...@dol.gov .  Future updates to the program, including the draft 
directive will be 

Re: [PSES] Battery certification issue

[Tyra, John]

Thanks Kevin,

Appreciate the information as that clear up a lot of misconceptions on the NRTL 
program.

Please be sure I was not trying to criticize the OSHA NRTL program and as you 
said only sharing my experience from 20 years ago.

Sounds like OSHA has made great progress in the audit program to be sure there 
are subject matter experts as auditors who can better assess an applicant’s 
standard knowledge and expertise.

Regards,

John

From: Kevin Robinson [mailto:kevinrobinso...@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2014 3:15 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Battery certification issue

I do want to chime in here on a few issues to stop any misconceptions about the 
NRTL program.  First a disclaimer, in my former life, I worked for an NRTL, I 
now work for OSHA in the office that oversees the NRTL program.

The NRTL Program applies ONLY to end products used in the workplace.  It does 
not apply to component power supplies, plastic materials used to make 
enclosures, transformers, switches etc. that are used to make up end products.  
OSHA has no authority to regulate components (as they typically can't be used 
in the workplace alone), and as a result, components are not covered under the 
NRTL Program.  It is true that many organizations recognized by OSHA as NRTLs 
do issue certifications on components, however, they are doing so outside of 
their NRTL scope of recognition, and OSHA does not oversee the activities that 
an organization we recognize does with respect to components.  A common 
complaint that I hear is the policies of some NRTLs as to the acceptance of 
component recognitions.  As the NRTL program does not cover components, and 
OSHA has no authority to require one NRTL to accept component recognition from 
another NRTL (that authority lies with other Federal agencies if the policies 
are determined to be anti-competitive).

With that said, OSHA and the NRTL Program do recognize the importance that 
component recognitions play in product safety certifications, and we do allow 
NRTLs to accept component certifications from another NRTL provided they can 
demonstrate that they have reviewed the component certification documents to 
ensure that the component is being properly used, and that the organization 
that granted the certification had the specific standard in their NRTL scope.

As for mutual recognition of one NRTL's certification for an end product, 
again, OSHA does not have the authority to require one NRTL to accept 
certifications from another NRTL.  We do allow this, and we have established 
some guidelines if an NRTL does accept certifications from another NRTL, but we 
can not require an NRTL to do this.  Fortunately, it is very rare when an end 
product certified by NRTL #1 is then submitted to NRTL #2.


John Tyra was sharing his experiences when working a an NRTL 20 years ago.  I 
can say that times have changed.  20 years ago, the NRTL program was only 5 
years old, and the assessors were borrowed from other federal agencies.  The 
only guidance that OSHA or NRTLs had was what was written in the regulations 
(29 CFR 1910.7) which provides a very high level approach to the program.  The 
NRTL Program within OSHA is a very small group (we currently have a staff of 4 
people), 50% of whom are ex-NRTL employees, so we now have the expertise to dig 
deeper into the capabilities.  In the late 1990's, OSHA did publish additional 
guidance for the NRTLs, although, there has been only minor updates since that 
time.  I am very happy to say that we will soon (hopefully this week) be 
releasing portions of an updated draft directive (OSHA Policies and procedures) 
for the NRTL program that align our requirements with ISO 17025 & 17065.  On 
October 22, we will be holding a stakeholder meeting to discuss which direction 
to take the program in the future, and whether those changes will require rule 
making which can be a lengthy process.  Some of the topics presented in this 
thread will be discussed at this meeting.  While registration for the meeting 
has officially closed, we so still have space available for those who are 
interested in attending as an observer.  Details on the meeting are available 
here: http://www.regulations.gov/#!docketDetail;D=OSHA-2013-0028.  If you are 
interested in attending this meeting, please send an e-mail to 
nrtlprog...@dol.gov .  Future updates to the 
program, including the draft directive will be posted here: 
https://www.osha.gov/nrtlpi/index.html

If you have any questions, feel free to contact me.

Kevin Robinson
Electrical Engineer & Senior Assessor
OSHA NRTL Program
robinson.ke...@dol.gov
202-693-1911


On Thu, Sep 4, 2014 at 1:15 PM, 
jral...@productsafetyinc.com 
mailto:jral...@productsafetyinc.com>> wrote:
Hi Rich,

Yes, I would agree.  Not sure how or if we'll ever get there, but if an NRTL is 
covered by OSHA for

Re: [PSES] Battery certification issue

[John Woodgate]

In message 


, dated Thu, 4 Sep 2014, "Tyra, John"  writes:

India is a member if the CB scheme yet they will not accept CB 
certifications and reports for the recent mandatory certification 
scheme that was rolled out in that country. They insist they must do 
complete retesting.


There was a recent IECEE vote to suspend their membership in the CB 
Scheme which I read recently failed so they are still a member so I am 
not so sure it is an issue for an NCB to reject another NCB members 
report.


But this is politics at work, not science and engineering.
--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
Quid faciamus nisi sit?
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion 
list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
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formats), large files, etc.

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For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] Battery certification issue

[Tyra, John]

India is a member if the CB scheme yet they will not accept CB certifications 
and reports for the recent mandatory certification scheme that was rolled out 
in that country. They insist they must do complete retesting.

There was a recent IECEE vote to suspend their membership in the CB Scheme 
which I read recently failed so they are still a member so I am not so sure it 
is an issue for an NCB to reject another NCB members report.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CB4QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fnemko.com%2Fno%2Fprintpdf%2F1995&ei=rsMIVKTcDM6BygSLnIKoBw&usg=AFQjCNEzvrstbhagDtDQkLT1HmOlHk3zug

-Original Message-
From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk] 
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2014 2:34 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Battery certification issue

In message <004e01cfc86b$6490a290$2db1e7b0$@pctestlab.com>, dated Thu, 4 Sep 
2014, dward  writes:

>But, if you go to one test house in one country and another test house 
>in that same country, even in Europe, I am sure you will find that they 
>do not all 'accept' each others data.

They would have a difficult job explaining why not.
--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Quid 
faciamus nisi sit?
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
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unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] Battery certification issue

[John Woodgate]

In message 
, 
dated Thu, 4 Sep 2014, Kevin Robinson  
writes:


The NRTL Program applies ONLY to end products used in the workplace. 
 It does not apply to component power supplies, plastic materials used 
to make enclosures, transformers, switches etc. that are used to make 
up end products.  OSHA has no authority to regulate components (as they 
typically can't be used in the workplace alone), and as a result, 
components are not covered under the NRTL Program.


Even I can understand that.(;-) In Europe, most electrical safety 
standards also apply to 'finished goods' only, but to all finished 
goods, not just those used in the workplace but in the home and 
everywhere else. However, there are some standards that can be applied 
to sub-assemblies:


IEC 61204-7:2006 Low-voltage power supplies, d.c. output - Part 7: 
Safety requirements

--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
Quid faciamus nisi sit?
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion 
list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html

For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas 
Mike Cantwell 

For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher:  
David Heald: 

Re: [PSES] Battery certification issue

[Kevin Robinson]

I do want to chime in here on a few issues to stop any misconceptions about
the NRTL program.  First a disclaimer, in my former life, I worked for an
NRTL, I now work for OSHA in the office that oversees the NRTL program.

The NRTL Program applies ONLY to end products used in the workplace.  It
does not apply to component power supplies, plastic materials used to make
enclosures, transformers, switches etc. that are used to make up end
products.  OSHA has no authority to regulate components (as they typically
can't be used in the workplace alone), and as a result, components are not
covered under the NRTL Program.  It is true that many organizations
recognized by OSHA as NRTLs do issue certifications on components, however,
they are doing so outside of their NRTL scope of recognition, and OSHA does
not oversee the activities that an organization we recognize does with
respect to components.  A common complaint that I hear is the policies of
some NRTLs as to the acceptance of component recognitions.  As the NRTL
program does not cover components, and OSHA has no authority to require one
NRTL to accept component recognition from another NRTL (that authority lies
with other Federal agencies if the policies are determined to be
anti-competitive).

With that said, OSHA and the NRTL Program do recognize the importance that
component recognitions play in product safety certifications, and we do
allow NRTLs to accept component certifications from another NRTL provided
they can demonstrate that they have reviewed the component certification
documents to ensure that the component is being properly used, and that the
organization that granted the certification had the specific standard in
their NRTL scope.

As for mutual recognition of one NRTL's certification for an end product,
again, OSHA does not have the authority to require one NRTL to accept
certifications from another NRTL.  We do allow this, and we have
established some guidelines if an NRTL does accept certifications from
another NRTL, but we can not require an NRTL to do this.  Fortunately, it
is very rare when an end product certified by NRTL #1 is then submitted to
NRTL #2.


John Tyra was sharing his experiences when working a an NRTL 20 years ago.
 I can say that times have changed.  20 years ago, the NRTL program was
only 5 years old, and the assessors were borrowed from other federal
agencies.  The only guidance that OSHA or NRTLs had was what was written in
the regulations (29 CFR 1910.7) which provides a very high level approach
to the program.  The NRTL Program within OSHA is a very small group (we
currently have a staff of 4 people), 50% of whom are ex-NRTL employees, so
we now have the expertise to dig deeper into the capabilities.  In the late
1990's, OSHA did publish additional guidance for the NRTLs, although, there
has been only minor updates since that time.  I am very happy to say that
we will soon (hopefully this week) be releasing portions of an updated
draft directive (OSHA Policies and procedures) for the NRTL program that
align our requirements with ISO 17025 & 17065.  On October 22, we will be
holding a stakeholder meeting to discuss which direction to take the
program in the future, and whether those changes will require rule making
which can be a lengthy process.  Some of the topics presented in this
thread will be discussed at this meeting.  While registration for the
meeting has officially closed, we so still have space available for those
who are interested in attending as an observer.  Details on the meeting are
available here: http://www.regulations.gov/#!docketDetail;D=OSHA-2013-0028.
 If you are interested in attending this meeting, please send an e-mail to
nrtlprog...@dol.gov .  Future updates to the program, including the draft
directive will be posted here: https://www.osha.gov/nrtlpi/index.html

If you have any questions, feel free to contact me.

Kevin Robinson
Electrical Engineer & Senior Assessor
OSHA NRTL Program
robinson.ke...@dol.gov
202-693-1911



On Thu, Sep 4, 2014 at 1:15 PM, jral...@productsafetyinc.com <
jral...@productsafetyinc.com> wrote:

> Hi Rich,
>
> Yes, I would agree.  Not sure how or if we'll ever get there, but if an
> NRTL is covered by OSHA for a Standard, all NRTLs should accept their mark
> and not have to repeat any testing.  How do we get there if the Standard
> itself leaves too much room for interpretation??  If all the Standards were
> Hazard Based (I know you'll love this), do we have a chance of getting to
> harmonized interpretations??
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Richard Nute [mailto:ri...@ieee.org]
> Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2014 12:10 PM
> To: jral...@productsafetyinc.com; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> Subject: Re: [PSES] Battery certification issue
>
>
>
> Hi John:
>
>
> On 9/4/2014 8:52 AM, jral...@productsafetyinc.com wrote:
> > Is it that NRTLs don't trust each other's data?  Or is the pink elephant
> in the room revenue and market share??
> The issue is revenue (pr

Re: [PSES] FCC EMI Test and Ferrites on Cables - a conundrum

[John Woodgate]

In message 
<63e38a5b081437478c77651f3d56c64f580a3...@orsmsx102.amr.corp.intel.com>, 
dated Thu, 4 Sep 2014, "Pettit, Ghery"  writes:


The problem with HDMI cables is that the HDMI standards for the cables 
do not specify that the shields be terminated.


Is anyone complaining to HDMI about that? It seems incredible, 
considering the status of the consortium companies that developed the 
interface, that the EMC issue was not treated in depth. Even if 
shielding was deemed optional (why?), at least the termination of 
shielding could have been specified.

--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
Quid faciamus nisi sit?
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

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Re: [PSES] Battery certification issue

[Brian Oconnell]

To continue flogging a dead frog

The PHB/MBA style management that has plagued North American compliance labs is 
where it is because we, the compliance engineering community, have chosen the 
path of least resistance (which is required for reliable bonding...). Mr. Nute 
is correct in the statement that agencies are being driven by bottom line 
concerns. But will also take the side of some of these labs (those that know me 
are probably having seizures), as have personally seen much weirdness in the 
test and certification of power conversion stuff. There is one particular lab, 
even if requested by customer, that my employer will never use: 
incorrect/incomplete reports, no conditions of acceptability, incorrectly 
scoped standards, no evidence of factory surveillance, etc. Under the SCC/OSHA 
systems, the lab takes considerable risk (regardless of the language in your 
General Services agreement with the agencies) under the civil tort process for 
all North American legal jurisdictions.

One questioned if "Is it that NRTLs don't trust each other's data? " Yes. In 
some cases, have had a customer say the marks of X and Y will not fly with Z 
because they also want yada yada. If customer will pay, we re-submit to Z, 
where they have access to all of my most wonderful TRFs, pics of test configs, 
etc; so Z will take my Tech File and use the reports from X and Y as basis for 
use of their mark and add the model to their FUS audits. Agency Z's management 
is happy they made more  with minimal engineering hours, and agency Z's 
assessment engineer can go home, drink an ale, and feel reasonably assured that 
the product is ok.

Another  wondered if this is ok in legal terms. Yes. If the lab adheres to 
29CFR1910, OSHA cannot do anything about a lab's refusal to accept another 
lab's certification, or a lab's internal policy structure.

One commented that their labs typically accept other labs' reports. Have found 
to be true where there are personal relationships and mutual respect among the 
various compliance and assessment engineers. A customer once commented that his 
assessment engineer accepted my employer's box because he knew the people that 
wrote the report. 

Finally, it was said by another august member that "It is extremely unlikely 
that this will change any time in the foreseeable future." As the situation is 
not intractable in technical sense, we should all endeavor to gently persuade 
some amount of change in lab attitudes. And as Mr. Nute noted, just take your 
business elsewhere.

Brian

-Original Message-
From: Richard Nute [mailto:ri...@ieee.org] 
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2014 10:10 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Battery certification issue

Hi John:


On 9/4/2014 8:52 AM, jral...@productsafetyinc.com wrote:
> Is it that NRTLs don't trust each other's data?  Or is the pink elephant in 
> the room revenue and market share??
The issue is revenue (profits).

If the NRTL performs ALL of the tests, the revenue is higher and the profits 
higher.

They use the argument that the NRTL must KNOW that the equipment is safe 
through their own measurements.  They cannot be held responsible for tests that 
are done by another NRTL.

On the other hand, some NRTLs do accept tests and data from other NRTLs.  And, 
some NRTLs have MRAs (to reduce time and costs for a client).

Best regards,
Rich

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Re: [PSES] Battery certification issue

[John Woodgate]

In message <004e01cfc86b$6490a290$2db1e7b0$@pctestlab.com>, dated Thu, 4 
Sep 2014, dward  writes:


But, if you go to one test house in one country and another test house 
in that same country, even in Europe, I am sure you will find that they 
do not all 'accept' each others data.


They would have a difficult job explaining why not.
--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
Quid faciamus nisi sit?
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

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Re: [PSES] Battery certification issue

[dward]

Europe is dealing with separate and sovereign countries, so MRA and the like
between certifiers in all countries are needed.  But, if you go to one test
house in one country and another test house in that same country, even in
Europe, I am sure you will find that they do not all 'accept' each others
data.
The US in one country, not many.  So, while most if not all NRTLs in the US
have their own test labs, there is no need for any MRA between NRTLs within
the US.  And, as they are their own test house and as they also use
registered trademarks and registered certification marks, they also do not
need to accept test data from other test houses.  

It is extremely unlikely that this will change any time in the foreseeable
future.

Thanks 

Dennis Ward
This communication and its attachements contain information from PCTEST
Engineering Laboratory, Inc., and I sintended for the exclusive use of the
recipient(s) named above.  It may contain information that is confidential
and/or legally privileged.  Any unauthorized use that may compromise that
confidentiality via distribution or disclosure is prohibited.  Please notify
the sender immediately if you receive this communication in error, and
delete it from your computer system.  Usage of PCTEST email addresses for
non-business related activities is strictly prohibited.  No warranty is made
that the e-mail or attachments(s) are free from computer virus or other
defect.  Thank you.

-Original Message-
From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk] 
Sent: Thursday, September 4, 2014 9:40 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Battery certification issue

In message
<2CF77CABFB3BC045B2724A8EF4182E7310324D46E0@P3PW5EX1MB13.EX1.SECURESERVER
.NET>, dated Thu, 4 Sep 2014, "jral...@productsafetyinc.com" 
 writes:

>Don't forget we are dealing with Registered Trademarks.  The NRTLs have 
>complete discretion over who is allowed to use their mark.  They also, 
>of course, have complete discretion over what test data they accept.

This is what we had in Europe with each country having its government agency
with trademark. It was decided long ago that it is not the best solution.
--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Quid
faciamus nisi sit?
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

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Re: [PSES] FCC EMI Test and Ferrites on Cables - a conundrum

[Pettit, Ghery]

The problem with HDMI cables is that the HDMI standards for the cables do not 
specify that the shields be terminated.  Thus, cables with improperly 
terminated shields can be labeled as HDMI compliant.  Best of luck in buying 
one off the shelf and having it done right from an EMC perspective.  You can 
specify that the customer buy properly shielded cables, but how is the customer 
going to know, short of taking a cable apart at the store (which I know the 
store won't be too happy about)?

Ghery S. Pettit

-Original Message-
From: Gary McInturff [mailto:gary.mcintu...@esterline.com] 
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2014 9:31 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] FCC EMI Test and Ferrites on Cables - a conundrum

Playing the devil advocate here only because I find this interesting and I'm 
not advocating anything. Heck I'm probably just arguing for argument sake. 

 If all cables are not equal as Ghery and note and the designer/manufacturer 
has knowledge of that don't the cables then become special accessories in their 
own right? Under 15.27 c) They would not normally be considered special 
accessory items  under the definition because they can be easily purchased at a 
multitude of locations.
15.27 c) Accessory items that can be readily obtained from multiple 
retail outlets are NOT (my emphasis)  considered to be special accessories ...  
But given the knowledge of the designer/manufacturer that cables vary in 
performance and not all cables were tested the only assurance they have that 
the system will perform as intended is buy telling the consumer exactly which 
cable they must use buy name and brand. But if they do that then the cable 
isn't "readily obtained from multiple outlets" and is now by definition a 
special accessory. Paragraph 15.27 says that "The party responsible for the 
equipment, as detailed in §2.909 of this chapter, shall ensure that these 
special accessories are provided with the equipment" So now must the cable be 
provided?


Gmac

-Original Message-
From: Pettit, Ghery [mailto:ghery.pet...@intel.com] 
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2014 12:46 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] FCC EMI Test and Ferrites on Cables

You are highly unlikely to find the ferrite prayer beads at Best Buy.  If you 
don't specify which ones to get you have no idea what the result will be.  I 
think you are correct, the beads must be shipped with the product.  The right 
ones, to boot.

Now, how does the designer know that he needs ferrite beads?  My experience has 
been that many (most?) HDMI cables do not have their shields terminated 
properly, if at all.  Once the shields are terminated correctly problems go 
away.  Could this be a better solution?

Ghery S. Pettit

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Re: [PSES] Battery certification issue

[jral...@productsafetyinc.com]

Hi Rich,

Yes, I would agree.  Not sure how or if we'll ever get there, but if an NRTL is 
covered by OSHA for a Standard, all NRTLs should accept their mark and not have 
to repeat any testing.  How do we get there if the Standard itself leaves too 
much room for interpretation??  If all the Standards were Hazard Based (I know 
you'll love this), do we have a chance of getting to harmonized 
interpretations??

-Original Message-
From: Richard Nute [mailto:ri...@ieee.org] 
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2014 12:10 PM
To: jral...@productsafetyinc.com; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Battery certification issue



Hi John:


On 9/4/2014 8:52 AM, jral...@productsafetyinc.com wrote:
> Is it that NRTLs don't trust each other's data?  Or is the pink elephant in 
> the room revenue and market share??
The issue is revenue (profits).

If the NRTL performs ALL of the tests, the revenue is higher and the profits 
higher.

They use the argument that the NRTL must KNOW that the equipment is safe 
through their own measurements.  They cannot be held responsible for tests that 
are done by another NRTL.

On the other hand, some NRTLs do accept tests and data from other NRTLs.  And, 
some NRTLs have MRAs (to reduce time and costs for a client).


Best regards,
Rich

-

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Re: [PSES] Battery certification issue

[Richard Nute]

Hi John:


On 9/4/2014 8:52 AM, jral...@productsafetyinc.com wrote:

Is it that NRTLs don't trust each other's data?  Or is the pink elephant in the 
room revenue and market share??

The issue is revenue (profits).

If the NRTL performs ALL of the tests, the revenue is
higher and the profits higher.

They use the argument that the NRTL must KNOW that the
equipment is safe through their own measurements.  They
cannot be held responsible for tests that are done by
another NRTL.

On the other hand, some NRTLs do accept tests and data
from other NRTLs.  And, some NRTLs have MRAs (to reduce
time and costs for a client).


Best regards,
Rich

-

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Re: [PSES] Battery certification issue

[John Woodgate]

In message 
<2CF77CABFB3BC045B2724A8EF4182E7310324D46E0@P3PW5EX1MB13.EX1.SECURESERVER
.NET>, dated Thu, 4 Sep 2014, "jral...@productsafetyinc.com" 
 writes:


Don't forget we are dealing with Registered Trademarks.  The NRTLs have 
complete discretion over who is allowed to use their mark.  They also, 
of course, have complete discretion over what test data they accept.


This is what we had in Europe with each country having its government 
agency with trademark. It was decided long ago that it is not the best 
solution.

--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
Quid faciamus nisi sit?
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

-

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Re: [PSES] Vertical SAR Phantom?

[Gary McInturff]

NWEMC in Portland Oregon
Northwest EMC, Inc.
22975 NW Evergreen Parkway
Suite 400
Hillsboro, Oregon 97124
Bus: (503) 943-3124
Bus Fax: (503) 844-3826
E-mail: kvall...@nwemc.com

www.NWEMC.com/testing-capabilities/wireless/sar-testing



Gmac

From: FW Miller [mailto:012cd6de8c7b-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org]
Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2014 6:01 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Vertical SAR Phantom?

My consultant suggested a vertical SAR phantom, such as the one depicted on 
page 3 at:
http://www.indexsar.com/pdf/SARAC-1108.pdf

Do any of the esteemed recipients of PSTC know of a test house that has one in 
the United States, or something similar? Northern California, Bay Area, would 
be wonderful.

Many thanks for your response,

FW Miller

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Re: [PSES] FCC EMI Test and Ferrites on Cables - a conundrum

[Gary McInturff]

Playing the devil advocate here only because I find this interesting and I'm 
not advocating anything. Heck I'm probably just arguing for argument sake. 

 If all cables are not equal as Ghery and note and the designer/manufacturer 
has knowledge of that don't the cables then become special accessories in their 
own right? Under 15.27 c) They would not normally be considered special 
accessory items  under the definition because they can be easily purchased at a 
multitude of locations.
15.27 c) Accessory items that can be readily obtained from multiple 
retail outlets are NOT (my emphasis)  considered to be special accessories ...  
But given the knowledge of the designer/manufacturer that cables vary in 
performance and not all cables were tested the only assurance they have that 
the system will perform as intended is buy telling the consumer exactly which 
cable they must use buy name and brand. But if they do that then the cable 
isn't "readily obtained from multiple outlets" and is now by definition a 
special accessory. Paragraph 15.27 says that "The party responsible for the 
equipment, as detailed in §2.909 of this chapter, shall ensure that these 
special accessories are provided with the equipment" So now must the cable be 
provided?


Gmac

-Original Message-
From: Pettit, Ghery [mailto:ghery.pet...@intel.com] 
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2014 12:46 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] FCC EMI Test and Ferrites on Cables

You are highly unlikely to find the ferrite prayer beads at Best Buy.  If you 
don't specify which ones to get you have no idea what the result will be.  I 
think you are correct, the beads must be shipped with the product.  The right 
ones, to boot.

Now, how does the designer know that he needs ferrite beads?  My experience has 
been that many (most?) HDMI cables do not have their shields terminated 
properly, if at all.  Once the shields are terminated correctly problems go 
away.  Could this be a better solution?

Ghery S. Pettit

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Re: [PSES] FCC EMI Test and Ferrites on Cables

[Bill Stumpf]

Tom,
You are correct.  Refer to Part 15.27 for the answer.  Special accessories 
needed for compliance must be supplied with the product, or must ensure that 
the accessories are provided in another way at no cost to the end user.


Bill Stumpf
D.L.S. Electronic Systems, Inc.
166 South Carter Street
Genoa City WI 53128
Ph: 262-279-0210




-Original Message-
From: T.Sato [mailto:vef00...@nifty.ne.jp] 
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2014 7:17 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] FCC EMI Test and Ferrites on Cables

On Wed, 3 Sep 2014 23:31:27 -0700,
  Scott Douglas  wrote:

> Now, my old brain thinks the above is not acceptable and that the FCC 
> says that anything special needed to pass FCC testing must be provided 
> with the product. And I am thinking that ferrites are special as you 
> can't get them at Walmart or Radio Shack or Ace Hardware. And not all 
> ferrites are the same.
> 
> Can anyone confirm my memory and maybe give a pointer to the part of 
> the FCC Rules that clarify this? Or have the rules changed over the 
> years and I just missed that part?

47 CFR 15.27 (Special accessories) ?
http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=960d31aad1bb305a1b56abf757c3bb2c&node=pt47.1.15&rgn=div5#se47.1.15_127

Regards,
Tom

--
Tomonori Sato  
URL: http://homepage3.nifty.com/tsato/

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Re: [PSES] FCC EMI Test and Ferrites on Cables

[dward]

The designer is flat wrong.
15.27 makes it clear that if such a 'special accessory' is required for
compliance of a device the they either must be provided with the device or
they must ensure a method such that the special accessory is provided to the
user of the device without additional charge and at the time of purchase.
And, while these special accessories must either be provided or made
available at the time of purchase at no additional charge, the manual must
give adequate instructions on how to install and use the special accessory.
A statement that ferrites is needed does not meet this requirement as it
would incur additional expense on the part of the user as ferrited cables
cost more.

The actual wording from 15.27 is as follows: 
"(a) Equipment marketed to a consumer must be capable of complying with the
necessary regulations in the configuration in which the equipment is
marketed. Where special accessories, such as shielded cables and/or special
connectors, are required to enable an unintentional or intentional radiator
to comply with the emission limits in this part, the equipment must be
marketed with, i.e., shipped and sold with, those special accessories.
However, in lieu of shipping or packaging the special accessories with the
unintentional or intentional radiator, the responsible party may employ
other methods of ensuring that the special accessories are provided to the
consumer, without additional charge, at the time of purchase. Information
detailing any alternative method used to supply the special accessories
shall be included in the application for a grant of equipment authorization
or retained in the verification records, as appropriate. The party
responsible for the equipment, as detailed in §2.909 of this chapter, shall
ensure that these special accessories are provided with the equipment. The
instruction manual for such devices shall include appropriate instructions
on the first page of the text concerned with the installation of the device
that these special accessories must be used with the device. It is the
responsibility of the user to use the needed special accessories supplied
with the equipment. In cases where the manual is provided only in a form
other than paper, such as on a computer disk or over the Internet, the
information required by this section may be included in the manual in that
alternative form, provided the user can reasonably be expected to have the
capability to access information in that form.

Thanks 

Dennis Ward
This communication and its attachements contain information from PCTEST
Engineering Laboratory, Inc., and I sintended for the exclusive use of the
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-Original Message-
From: Rudd, Adam [mailto:adam.r...@ncr.com] 
Sent: Thursday, September 4, 2014 5:03 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] FCC EMI Test and Ferrites on Cables

It's all in Part 15, spread about.

47CFR15.27

47CFR15.31(j)


-Original Message-
From: Scott Douglas [mailto:sdouglas...@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2014 2:31 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@listserv.ieee.org
Subject: [PSES] FCC EMI Test and Ferrites on Cables

Fellow List persons...

Please help refresh a tired brain. A designer of a product tells us that he
passes FCC emissions testing if he puts ferrite sleeves (beads?) on the four
HDMI cables connected at the rear panel of the product.

He tells us that all he needs to do is add a statement in the user manual to
the effect that the HDMI output cables must have ferrite sleeves (beads?) on
them.

He says he does not need to specify manufacturer name and part number of the
ferrites.

He says he does not need to provide the ferrites with the product.

He also does not plan to include the HDMI output cables with the product
because every installation will have different length HDMI cables needed.

Now, my old brain thinks the above is not acceptable and that the FCC says
that anything special needed to pass FCC testing must be provided with the
product. And I am thinking that ferrites are special as you can't get them
at Walmart or Radio Shack or Ace Hardware. And not all ferrites are the
same.

Can anyone confirm my memory and maybe give a pointer to the part of the FCC
Rules that clarify this? Or have the rules changed over the years and I just
missed that part?

Thank you in advance for any and all comments, on list or off.

Best regards,
Scott

-

T

Re: [PSES] Battery certification issue

[jral...@productsafetyinc.com]

Don't forget we are dealing with Registered Trademarks.  The NRTLs have 
complete discretion over who is allowed to use their mark.  They also, of 
course, have complete discretion over what test data they accept.  We have 
found some NRTLs accept other NRTLs data only when a complete test report is 
provided.  Complete = list of equipment, method, results, signatures, etc. that 
complies with ISO17025.  Providing just a lists of tests conducted has not 
gotten us very far.  Unfortunately some NRTLs no longer provide complete test 
reports and/or don't allow you to copy and send to anyone.

Is it that NRTLs don't trust each other's data?  Or is the pink elephant in the 
room revenue and market share??  I completely understand this, but can't 
competitors separate themselves based on price and service?  Wouldn't it be 
nice if we can all just get along and get out of the way of mfg'rs so they can 
get products to market faster?  Doesn't this ultimately improve all of our 
economies?? - getting more done in less time.

I believe this discussion has been going on for years and will likely continue 
for many more.

-Original Message-
From: Tyra, John [mailto:john_t...@bose.com] 
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2014 8:01 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Battery certification issue

NRTL's are like doctors. Just because someone has a medical degree does not 
mean they are good doctors. Same with NRTL's in my experience. Just because 
they are accredited does not mean they are good test labs. There are ones that 
do excellent jobs and others not so much.

When I was at TUV we went through the OSHA accreditation process and became an 
NRTL, for a small scope of standards at the time, and there is only so much 
they can check in a two day accreditation audit. They are also not experts in 
the standards they are accrediting a lab for. In our audit they checked for 
laboratory quality procedures, made sure we had the equipment to do the tests, 
and had us run a few tests to make sure we could do them but the auditors did 
not know the details of the standards they were auditing. Now maybe this has 
changed, as my experience is from 20+ years ago, but that is how it was back 
then.

Unfortunately NRTL's can impose additional requirements they feel are justified 
and  I doubt OSHA hears about these issues and I am not sure they could or 
would intervene in any case as IMHO the NRTL personnel generally know more 
about the requirements then OSHA does.

Personally I found the CB Scheme audits to be much more thorough as back 20+ 
years ago when I participated in one  the auditors were Engineers who were 
expert in the safety standards and did test us on our standard expertise. But 
even for the CB scheme audits are not all encompassing as I have found that 
NCB/CBTL expertise varies greatly depending on which lab you choose.



-Original Message-
From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk]
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2014 2:25 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Battery certification issue

In message
<49b036a46b7543609a62f14804058...@bn1pr08mb059.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>
, dated Wed, 3 Sep 2014, "Nyffenegger, Dave" 
 writes:

>But the NRTLs are accredited and regularly reviewed/inspected by their 
>accreditation bodies in order to  stay on OSHAs NRTL list as I am 
>repeatedly reminded by the NRTLs otherwise their mark becomes worthless.

So the accreditation bodies tolerate arbitrary and unreasoning decisions by the 
NRTLs? Or do they just never get to hear about them?
--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Quid 
faciamus nisi sit?
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

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Re: [PSES] Caution to those who live outside of California and got there on business!!! (Don't)

[John Shinn]

From: Doug Powell 
Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2014 3:40 AM
To: jmsh...@pacbell.net ; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG 
Subject: Re: [PSES] Caution to those who live outside of California and got 
there on business!!! (Don't)

Just for clarification, may I get concise answers to each of these questions?1) 
‎If a non-resident consultant travels to CA to do on-site work for a client 
company and this consultant is paid by the company at a later time at an hourly 
rate, which party is responsible for paying income taxes in CA?
Note that there are three ways to get paid.  First is the normal W-2 employee, 
the second is the 1099-MISC employee, and 
the third is cash (we won’t discuss that one).
If you are a W2 employee, Federal and State income tax, along with Social 
Security and Medicare will be withheld.
If you are a 1099-MISC employee (Self Employed, etc.), the PAYER should 
withhold 7% backup withholding IF they are 
required to withhold backup withholding and remit to the IRS.  (See Form 587 
Instructions).

Most likely, you will receive a Form 1099-MISC from who ever paid you.  When 
you do your Federal Income Tax return, 
you would normally file your state tax return also.  However, income derived 
form “out of state” such as CA, you would
file a CA Non-resident return to include the income sourced in CA.  This income 
would be subtracted from the income 
reported in your state (assuming you have to pay a state income tax).  If the 
funds were withheld by the Payer, then you 
probably will already have some funds prepaid, otherwise you may have to pay 
some CA income tax.

Note also that backup withholding begins at above $1500.  

 2) If a non-resident consultant does remote work for a client based in CA, is 
there then no concern for CA taxes for the consultant?
This should not be a concern.  Let’s assume that a CA firm sends you a product 
to test in your lab outside of CA.  This would be income 
derived in your state and NOT CA.  The same would be if you are simply 
telecommuting and not located in CA.

3) If such taxes are paid in CA, by one party or the other, is it true that 
this income should not be taxed in other states? 
Yes.  See above
‎4) If this has been in effect for several years, is it possible these client 
companies have paid this tax all along without the knowledge of the consultant?
Probably not.  You would normally receive a statement (1099-MISC) indicating 
funds paid to you and any funds withheld.
5) How is this monitored or enforced and can it be retroactive?
Like most taxes, it is part of an Honorary system.  However, sometimes a paper 
trail exists such as a W2 or Form 1099.  
The Franchise Tax Board (FTB) then may contact you for back taxes (typically up 
to 3 years).   
When a paper train does not exist, you may want to talk to your tax advisor.

6) Is this also true of other locations in the USA? 
Some state may, or may not, have and backup withholding requirements, but those 
that do have state income tax 
with have provisions for Non-Resident income taxes.

If I understand correctly, this would seem to run afoul of most consulting 
agreements.   Nearly always, there is a section on taxes, stating the client 
company is not responsible. 

Not really.  In any case, you are responsible for paying the applicable taxes.  
Whether the Payer withholds the taxes is irrelevant.

I hope this clears up some the this confusing issue.  Generally, I would not 
expect this to be of great concern. 
More information can be found at www.ftb.ca.gov and search for backup 
withholding.

John






Thanks, - doug

Douglas Powell
http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01   
  From: John Shinn
  Sent: Wednesday, September 3, 2014 12:07 AM
  To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
  Reply To: John Shinn
  Subject: Re: [PSES] Caution to those who live outside of California and 
got there on business!!! (Don't) 


This issue has been in effect since Jan. 1, 2010.  
See:  https://www.ftb.ca.gov/forms/2013/13_587.pdf
or:  https://www.ftb.ca.gov/forms/2014/14_587.pdf

If you are a consultant (i.e. – Self Employed), the company you performed 
the services for is required to send you a Form 1099-MISC if your income 
exceeds $600.  CA requires them to to withhold 7% (certain exceptions apply).
This basically means that CA wants their share of the state taxes from income 
sourced in CA.  

I can understand your frustration with the situation.  It is not all that 
uncommon.  

See my other comments later.

FYI, in addition to my own Engineering & Management consulting, I am also 
a Registered Tax Professional with both the IRS and CA.  

I hope that sheds some light on the situation.

Regards, 

John Shinn, Ph.D., P.E.


-Original Message- 
From: Ken Javor 
Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2014 7:27 PM 
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG 
Subject: Re: [PSES] Caution to those who live outside of California and got 
there on business!!! (Don't) 

Unless you're in show business. There's no business like s

Re: [PSES] Battery certification issue

[Tyra, John]

NRTL's are like doctors. Just because someone has a medical degree does not 
mean they are good doctors. Same with NRTL's in my experience. Just because 
they are accredited does not mean they are good test labs. There are ones that 
do excellent jobs and others not so much.

When I was at TUV we went through the OSHA accreditation process and became an 
NRTL, for a small scope of standards at the time, and there is only so much 
they can check in a two day accreditation audit. They are also not experts in 
the standards they are accrediting a lab for. In our audit they checked for 
laboratory quality procedures, made sure we had the equipment to do the tests, 
and had us run a few tests to make sure we could do them but the auditors did 
not know the details of the standards they were auditing. Now maybe this has 
changed, as my experience is from 20+ years ago, but that is how it was back 
then.

Unfortunately NRTL's can impose additional requirements they feel are justified 
and  I doubt OSHA hears about these issues and I am not sure they could or 
would intervene in any case as IMHO the NRTL personnel generally know more 
about the requirements then OSHA does.

Personally I found the CB Scheme audits to be much more thorough as back 20+ 
years ago when I participated in one  the auditors were Engineers who were 
expert in the safety standards and did test us on our standard expertise. But 
even for the CB scheme audits are not all encompassing as I have found that 
NCB/CBTL expertise varies greatly depending on which lab you choose.



-Original Message-
From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk] 
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2014 2:25 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Battery certification issue

In message
<49b036a46b7543609a62f14804058...@bn1pr08mb059.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>
, dated Wed, 3 Sep 2014, "Nyffenegger, Dave" 
 writes:

>But the NRTLs are accredited and regularly reviewed/inspected by their 
>accreditation bodies in order to  stay on OSHAs NRTL list as I am 
>repeatedly reminded by the NRTLs otherwise their mark becomes worthless.

So the accreditation bodies tolerate arbitrary and unreasoning decisions by the 
NRTLs? Or do they just never get to hear about them?
--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Quid 
faciamus nisi sit?
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

-

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Re: [PSES] Battery certification issue

[John Woodgate]

In message 
<92dfdeb9614f468a9db0cb3301143...@bn1pr08mb202.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>

, dated Thu, 4 Sep 2014, "Tyra, John"  writes:

Brian is 100% correct in that NRTL's are within their right to reject 
certifications and or test reports from other NRTL labs.


There is an NRTL here in the U.S. that has strict requirements about 
accepting component approvals from other NRTL's. They may accept other 
NRTL approvals but they have their own criteria on what is required in 
this case.


I understand, but it seems to create an anomaly in accreditation. Either 
the more liberal NRTLs are not strict enough or the strict NRTL is 
gold-plating the requirements. European assessors are charged with 
disallowing both. (It is not *quite* true that they are charged with 
disallowing everything.)

--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
Quid faciamus nisi sit?
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

-

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list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 

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Re: [PSES] Battery certification issue

[Nyffenegger, Dave]

The NRTLs I work with don't seem to have any issue with mutual recognition with 
other NRTLs.  Only issue they have is with CE mark which of course is 
self-certified so can be rightly questioned.

-Dave

-Original Message-
From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk] 
Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2014 5:27 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Battery certification issue

In message

, dated Wed, 3 Sep 2014, Brian Oconnell 
writes:

> There is no mutual recognition requirement among NRTLs,

That seems to be a recipe for chaos. Mutual recognition is a very strong 
requirement in Europe.
--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Quid 
faciamus nisi sit?
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

-

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discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
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Re: [PSES] Battery certification issue

[Nyffenegger, Dave]

>From what I'm told, just the opposite.  The NRTLs need to be able to justify 
>all their decisions to the accreditation body  if questioned, or so I'm told.
Of course if something slips through and is not questioned by the body during 
review then...
-Dave


-Original Message-
From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk] 
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2014 2:25 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Battery certification issue

In message
<49b036a46b7543609a62f14804058...@bn1pr08mb059.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>
, dated Wed, 3 Sep 2014, "Nyffenegger, Dave" 
 writes:

>But the NRTLs are accredited and regularly reviewed/inspected by their 
>accreditation bodies in order to  stay on OSHAs NRTL list as I am 
>repeatedly reminded by the NRTLs otherwise their mark becomes worthless.

So the accreditation bodies tolerate arbitrary and unreasoning decisions by the 
NRTLs? Or do they just never get to hear about them?
--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Quid 
faciamus nisi sit?
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

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Re: [PSES] Battery certification issue

[Tyra, John]

Brian is 100% correct in that NRTL's are within their right to reject 
certifications and or test reports from other NRTL labs.

There is an NRTL here in the U.S. that has strict requirements about accepting 
component approvals from other NRTL's. They may accept other NRTL approvals but 
they have their own criteria on what is required in this case.

-Original Message-
From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk] 
Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2014 5:27 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Battery certification issue

In message

, dated Wed, 3 Sep 2014, Brian Oconnell 
writes:

> There is no mutual recognition requirement among NRTLs,

That seems to be a recipe for chaos. Mutual recognition is a very strong 
requirement in Europe.
--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Quid 
faciamus nisi sit?
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

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Re: [PSES] SELV/PELV power supplies

[John Woodgate]

In message 

, dated Thu, 4 Sep 2014, "Nyffenegger, Dave" 
 writes:


The main question is  whether the supplies meet the SELV criteria for 
keeping the output voltage limited under the internal  fault condition 
if they claim compliance with UL 508 and EN 60950-1 but do not 
specifically mention anything about meeting SELV.


The supplies must meet the insulation requirements to claim any sort of 
compliance at all. The voltage requirements under single-fault 
conditions would be extra; probably they would be met but it's not 
certain.


Or to re-phrase the other question,  is there another standard that 
also specifically meets the requirements for SELV?


You mean another standard for complete power supplies?



You could look at standards in the IEC/EN 61204 series. See:

http://www.iec.ch/dyn/www/f?p=103:22:0FSP_ORG_ID:1414

on the public part of the IEC web site.
--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
Quid faciamus nisi sit?
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

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Re: [PSES] SELV/PELV power supplies

[Nyffenegger, Dave]

Right, typically the output supply bonding would be done outside the supply to 
make it PELV.   The main question is  whether the supplies meet the SELV 
criteria for keeping the output voltage limited under the internal  fault 
condition if they claim compliance with UL 508 and EN 60950-1 but do not 
specifically mention anything about meeting SELV.

Or to re-phrase the other question,  is there another standard that also 
specifically meets the requirements for SELV?

Now you have me thinking, I should check the supply I have which does claim 
PELV and measure the impedance between the output and the PE terminal.

-Dave

-Original Message-
From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk] 
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2014 2:35 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] SELV/PELV power supplies

In message
<46b74057309b4f7e943f58221fd6d...@bn1pr08mb059.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>
, dated Thu, 4 Sep 2014, "Nyffenegger, Dave" 
 writes:

>With regards to electronic power supplies most data sheets I have seen 
>state compliance to UL 508 and EN 60950-1 but do not specifically 
>mention anything about meeting SELV or PELV requirements.  Some do. The 
>question is it can somehow be assumed that an electronic power supply 
>compliant with UL 508 and/or EN 60950-1 and/or UL listed does in fact 
>meet requirements for SELV?

The power supply as a whole cannot claim that unless ALL its outputs meet the 
SELV requirements. But it does meet the requirements for safety isolation, so 
those outputs that meet the voltage requirements are SELV.

>  Or is there another standard that also specifically meets the 
>requirements for PELV?

I don't think so. It's up to you to convert an SELV output to PELV by 
connecting one side to the PE conductor.

>Or does this need to be specifically confirmed with the manufacturer 
>beyond the basic UL 508 and/or EN 60950-1 if the data sheets do not 
>specifically claim a PELV rating?

I doubt that you will find many power supplies that have PELV outputs (i.e. 
with one side connected internally to the PE).
--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Quid 
faciamus nisi sit?
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

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Re: [PSES] FCC EMI Test and Ferrites on Cables

[Rudd, Adam]

It's all in Part 15, spread about.

47CFR15.27

47CFR15.31(j)


-Original Message-
From: Scott Douglas [mailto:sdouglas...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2014 2:31 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@listserv.ieee.org
Subject: [PSES] FCC EMI Test and Ferrites on Cables

Fellow List persons...

Please help refresh a tired brain. A designer of a product tells us that he 
passes FCC emissions testing if he puts ferrite sleeves (beads?) on the four 
HDMI cables connected at the rear panel of the product.

He tells us that all he needs to do is add a statement in the user manual to 
the effect that the HDMI output cables must have ferrite sleeves (beads?) on 
them.

He says he does not need to specify manufacturer name and part number of the 
ferrites.

He says he does not need to provide the ferrites with the product.

He also does not plan to include the HDMI output cables with the product 
because every installation will have different length HDMI cables needed.

Now, my old brain thinks the above is not acceptable and that the FCC says that 
anything special needed to pass FCC testing must be provided with the product. 
And I am thinking that ferrites are special as you can't get them at Walmart or 
Radio Shack or Ace Hardware. And not all ferrites are the same.

Can anyone confirm my memory and maybe give a pointer to the part of the FCC 
Rules that clarify this? Or have the rules changed over the years and I just 
missed that part?

Thank you in advance for any and all comments, on list or off.

Best regards,
Scott

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Re: [PSES] FCC EMI Test and Ferrites on Cables

[Sykes, Bob]

Scott,

See FCC Part 15 - § 15.27 Special accessories

-Bob Sykes


-Original Message-
From: Scott Douglas [mailto:sdouglas...@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2014 2:31 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] FCC EMI Test and Ferrites on Cables

Fellow List persons...

Please help refresh a tired brain. A designer of a product tells us that he 
passes FCC emissions testing if he puts ferrite sleeves (beads?) on the four 
HDMI cables connected at the rear panel of the product.

He tells us that all he needs to do is add a statement in the user manual to 
the effect that the HDMI output cables must have ferrite sleeves (beads?) on 
them.

He says he does not need to specify manufacturer name and part number of the 
ferrites.

He says he does not need to provide the ferrites with the product.

He also does not plan to include the HDMI output cables with the product 
because every installation will have different length HDMI cables needed.

Now, my old brain thinks the above is not acceptable and that the FCC says that 
anything special needed to pass FCC testing must be provided with the product. 
And I am thinking that ferrites are special as you can't get them at Walmart or 
Radio Shack or Ace Hardware. And not all ferrites are the same.

Can anyone confirm my memory and maybe give a pointer to the part of the FCC 
Rules that clarify this? Or have the rules changed over the years and I just 
missed that part?

Thank you in advance for any and all comments, on list or off.

Best regards,
Scott

-

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Re: [PSES] FCC EMI Test and Ferrites on Cables

[T.Sato]

On Wed, 3 Sep 2014 23:31:27 -0700,
  Scott Douglas  wrote:

> Now, my old brain thinks the above is not acceptable and that the FCC
> says that anything special needed to pass FCC testing must be provided
> with the product. And I am thinking that ferrites are special as you
> can't get them at Walmart or Radio Shack or Ace Hardware. And not all
> ferrites are the same.
> 
> Can anyone confirm my memory and maybe give a pointer to the part of
> the FCC Rules that clarify this? Or have the rules changed over the
> years and I just missed that part?

47 CFR 15.27 (Special accessories) ?
http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=960d31aad1bb305a1b56abf757c3bb2c&node=pt47.1.15&rgn=div5#se47.1.15_127

Regards,
Tom

-- 
Tomonori Sato  
URL: http://homepage3.nifty.com/tsato/

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Re: [PSES] FCC EMI Test and Ferrites on Cables

[Adam Dixon]

I third this sentiment.  I've seen wide variation in cable construction
with respect to shell grounding and raw cable shield construction (foil
types, braid % coverage).

HDMI cables with ferrite cores are available at places like Monoprice, but
they are definitely in the minority.  A web search similar to "HDMI cables
with ferrite" yields some interesting and at times humorous A/V forum
discussions.  Also, if you search on 'ferrite' alone on the HDMI site,
there's a vintage press release about a patented shielding can design which
removes the need for ferrites and if you find the associated company's
site, the technology (shell/can design) shows up on page one of their
catalog.

It seems as though the HDMI and DisplayPort interfaces have gone through
change such that early cables more commonly had ferrites and later ones do
not, perhaps due to what has been learned along the way about the
transmitter and receiver PCBA/module designs.


Cheers,
Adam



On Thu, Sep 4, 2014 at 4:51 AM, Pawson, James 
wrote:

> I'm with Ghery on this one.
>
> All HDMI cables are not created equal.
> Screening of the backshell and connection of the cable shield is critical.
>
> James
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Pettit, Ghery [mailto:ghery.pet...@intel.com]
> Sent: 04 September 2014 08:46
> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> Subject: Re: [PSES] FCC EMI Test and Ferrites on Cables
>
> You are highly unlikely to find the ferrite prayer beads at Best Buy.  If
> you don't specify which ones to get you have no idea what the result will
> be.  I think you are correct, the beads must be shipped with the product.
> The right ones, to boot.
>
> Now, how does the designer know that he needs ferrite beads?  My
> experience has been that many (most?) HDMI cables do not have their shields
> terminated properly, if at all.  Once the shields are terminated correctly
> problems go away.  Could this be a better solution?
>
> Ghery S. Pettit
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Scott Douglas [mailto:sdouglas...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2014 11:31 PM
> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
> Subject: [PSES] FCC EMI Test and Ferrites on Cables
>
> Fellow List persons...
>
> Please help refresh a tired brain. A designer of a product tells us that
> he passes FCC emissions testing if he puts ferrite sleeves (beads?) on the
> four HDMI cables connected at the rear panel of the product.
>
> He tells us that all he needs to do is add a statement in the user manual
> to the effect that the HDMI output cables must have ferrite sleeves
> (beads?) on them.
>
> He says he does not need to specify manufacturer name and part number of
> the ferrites.
>
> He says he does not need to provide the ferrites with the product.
>
> He also does not plan to include the HDMI output cables with the product
> because every installation will have different length HDMI cables needed.
>
> Now, my old brain thinks the above is not acceptable and that the FCC says
> that anything special needed to pass FCC testing must be provided with the
> product. And I am thinking that ferrites are special as you can't get them
> at Walmart or Radio Shack or Ace Hardware. And not all ferrites are the
> same.
>
> Can anyone confirm my memory and maybe give a pointer to the part of the
> FCC Rules that clarify this? Or have the rules changed over the years and I
> just missed that part?
>
> Thank you in advance for any and all comments, on list or off.
>
> Best regards,
> Scott
>
> -
> 
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <
> emc-p...@ieee.org>
>
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
>
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
> well-used formats), large files, etc.
>
> Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
> Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to
> unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
>
> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
> Scott Douglas 
> Mike Cantwell 
>
> For policy questions, send mail to:
> Jim Bacher:  
> David Heald: 
>
> -
> 
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <
> emc-p...@ieee.org>
>
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
>
> Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
> http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
> well-used formats), large files, etc.
>
> Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
> Instructions:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including

Re: [PSES] FCC EMI Test and Ferrites on Cables

[Pawson, James]

I'm with Ghery on this one.

All HDMI cables are not created equal.
Screening of the backshell and connection of the cable shield is critical.

James

-Original Message-
From: Pettit, Ghery [mailto:ghery.pet...@intel.com] 
Sent: 04 September 2014 08:46
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] FCC EMI Test and Ferrites on Cables

You are highly unlikely to find the ferrite prayer beads at Best Buy.  If you 
don't specify which ones to get you have no idea what the result will be.  I 
think you are correct, the beads must be shipped with the product.  The right 
ones, to boot.

Now, how does the designer know that he needs ferrite beads?  My experience has 
been that many (most?) HDMI cables do not have their shields terminated 
properly, if at all.  Once the shields are terminated correctly problems go 
away.  Could this be a better solution?

Ghery S. Pettit

-Original Message-
From: Scott Douglas [mailto:sdouglas...@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2014 11:31 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] FCC EMI Test and Ferrites on Cables

Fellow List persons...

Please help refresh a tired brain. A designer of a product tells us that he 
passes FCC emissions testing if he puts ferrite sleeves (beads?) on the four 
HDMI cables connected at the rear panel of the product.

He tells us that all he needs to do is add a statement in the user manual to 
the effect that the HDMI output cables must have ferrite sleeves (beads?) on 
them.

He says he does not need to specify manufacturer name and part number of the 
ferrites.

He says he does not need to provide the ferrites with the product.

He also does not plan to include the HDMI output cables with the product 
because every installation will have different length HDMI cables needed.

Now, my old brain thinks the above is not acceptable and that the FCC says that 
anything special needed to pass FCC testing must be provided with the product. 
And I am thinking that ferrites are special as you can't get them at Walmart or 
Radio Shack or Ace Hardware. And not all ferrites are the same.

Can anyone confirm my memory and maybe give a pointer to the part of the FCC 
Rules that clarify this? Or have the rules changed over the years and I just 
missed that part?

Thank you in advance for any and all comments, on list or off.

Best regards,
Scott

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This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
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This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
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This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
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Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
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Re: [PSES] ISO 7637-2

[Anthony Thomson]

Hi David,

 

I think you'll need a solid state switch/relay switched using a bounce/transient free logic type signal.

 

Regards,

Tony

 

Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2014 at 4:49 PM
From: David <00fdec74198b-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org>
To: EMC-PSTC@listserv.ieee.org
Subject: [PSES] ISO 7637-2



All,

 

I'm trying to do a transient emissions test using the ISO 7637-2 test method(2004). I'm having trouble finding a switch or relay to do this. We have some around the lab, but my test results seem to be just switch bounce or noise - not much coming from the EUT.

 

Anyone have a suggestion for a switch?

 

Thanks,

 

Dan

 

 

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This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html

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This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 

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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc.


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Re: [PSES] FCC EMI Test and Ferrites on Cables

[Pettit, Ghery]

You are highly unlikely to find the ferrite prayer beads at Best Buy.  If you 
don't specify which ones to get you have no idea what the result will be.  I 
think you are correct, the beads must be shipped with the product.  The right 
ones, to boot.

Now, how does the designer know that he needs ferrite beads?  My experience has 
been that many (most?) HDMI cables do not have their shields terminated 
properly, if at all.  Once the shields are terminated correctly problems go 
away.  Could this be a better solution?

Ghery S. Pettit

-Original Message-
From: Scott Douglas [mailto:sdouglas...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2014 11:31 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] FCC EMI Test and Ferrites on Cables

Fellow List persons...

Please help refresh a tired brain. A designer of a product tells us that 
he passes FCC emissions testing if he puts ferrite sleeves (beads?) on 
the four HDMI cables connected at the rear panel of the product.

He tells us that all he needs to do is add a statement in the user 
manual to the effect that the HDMI output cables must have ferrite 
sleeves (beads?) on them.

He says he does not need to specify manufacturer name and part number of 
the ferrites.

He says he does not need to provide the ferrites with the product.

He also does not plan to include the HDMI output cables with the product 
because every installation will have different length HDMI cables needed.

Now, my old brain thinks the above is not acceptable and that the FCC 
says that anything special needed to pass FCC testing must be provided 
with the product. And I am thinking that ferrites are special as you 
can't get them at Walmart or Radio Shack or Ace Hardware. And not all 
ferrites are the same.

Can anyone confirm my memory and maybe give a pointer to the part of the 
FCC Rules that clarify this? Or have the rules changed over the years 
and I just missed that part?

Thank you in advance for any and all comments, on list or off.

Best regards,
Scott

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This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


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This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
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formats), large files, etc.

Website:  http://www.ieee-pses.org/
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Re: [PSES] FCC EMI Test and Ferrites on Cables

[John Woodgate]

In message <5408073f.6050...@gmail.com>, dated Wed, 3 Sep 2014, Scott 
Douglas  writes:


He tells us that all he needs to do is add a statement in the user 
manual to the effect that the HDMI output cables must have ferrite 
sleeves (beads?) on them.


While you didn't ask, in Europe he would have to do that.


He says he does not need to specify manufacturer name and part number 
of the ferrites.


In Europe, he would either have to do that or...


He says he does not need to provide the ferrites with the product.


...provide the ferrites with the product.


He also does not plan to include the HDMI output cables with the 
product because every installation will have different length HDMI 
cables needed.


That is also recognized as impracticable in Europe. But the cable needs 
to be specified (more particularly any screened cable): people have not, 
as far as I know, been in trouble for specifying 'Mycable Inc. type 999 
or equivalent'.

--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
Quid faciamus nisi sit?
John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK

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This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion 
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