Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US
I am working with the big W now and they seem to take their compliance seriously. Dave -Original Message- From: Richard Nute [mailto:ri...@ieee.org] Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2016 5:55 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US At least Walmart has a policy regarding the safety of the products it sells: http://corporate.walmart.com/suppliers/minimum-requirements http://cdn.corporate.walmart.com/d1/7e/ee6f5c8942f69ad4183bc0683771/standards-for-suppliers-manual.pdf The manual covers a lot of stuff, and is simply stated. I couldn't find the equivalent for Sears/K-mart. Rich > -Original Message- > From: Ralph McDiarmid > [mailto:Ralph.McDiarmid@SCHNEIDER- > ELECTRIC.COM] > Sent: 02 August 2016 21:17 > To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US > > I wonder how Walmart, K-Mart, Sears and others compare. > > Ralph McDiarmid > Product Compliance > Engineering > Solar Business > Schneider Electric > > > - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald: - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US
At least Walmart has a policy regarding the safety of the products it sells: http://corporate.walmart.com/suppliers/minimum-requirements http://cdn.corporate.walmart.com/d1/7e/ee6f5c8942f69ad4183bc0683771/standards-for-suppliers-manual.pdf The manual covers a lot of stuff, and is simply stated. I couldn't find the equivalent for Sears/K-mart. Rich > -Original Message- > From: Ralph McDiarmid > [mailto:Ralph.McDiarmid@SCHNEIDER- > ELECTRIC.COM] > Sent: 02 August 2016 21:17 > To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US > > I wonder how Walmart, K-Mart, Sears and others > compare. > > Ralph McDiarmid > Product Compliance > Engineering > Solar Business > Schneider Electric > > > - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US
I'm sure others might do also! John E Allen W.London, UK -Original Message- From: Ralph McDiarmid [mailto:ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com] Sent: 02 August 2016 21:17 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US I wonder how Walmart, K-Mart, Sears and others compare. Ralph McDiarmid Product Compliance Engineering Solar Business Schneider Electric -Original Message- From: John Allen [mailto:john_e_al...@blueyonder.co.uk] Sent: Monday, August 01, 2016 8:52 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Afternoon Interesting article on ECMWEB - "OSHA Cites Macy's, The Finish Line for Electrical Shock Hazards" (http://ecmweb.com/shock-electrocution/osha-cites-macys-finish-line-electrical-shock-hazards?NL=ECM-04&Issue=ECM-04_20160801_ECM-04_674&sfvc4enews=42&cl=article_7&utm_rid=CPG0400025478&utm_campaign=9488&utm_medium=email&elq2=5b6bd213b60e495db5acd4a96d11a708) Makes me wonder what their management control of the stuff they buy in to sell to customers is like if this is how they "manage" safety in their own stores! John E Allen W.London, UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald: __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ This message was scanned by Exchange Online Protection Services. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald: - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US
I wonder how Walmart, K-Mart, Sears and others compare. Ralph McDiarmid Product Compliance Engineering Solar Business Schneider Electric -Original Message- From: John Allen [mailto:john_e_al...@blueyonder.co.uk] Sent: Monday, August 01, 2016 8:52 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Afternoon Interesting article on ECMWEB - "OSHA Cites Macy's, The Finish Line for Electrical Shock Hazards" (http://ecmweb.com/shock-electrocution/osha-cites-macys-finish-line-electrical-shock-hazards?NL=ECM-04&Issue=ECM-04_20160801_ECM-04_674&sfvc4enews=42&cl=article_7&utm_rid=CPG0400025478&utm_campaign=9488&utm_medium=email&elq2=5b6bd213b60e495db5acd4a96d11a708) Makes me wonder what their management control of the stuff they buy in to sell to customers is like if this is how they "manage" safety in their own stores! John E Allen W.London, UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald: __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ This message was scanned by Exchange Online Protection Services. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US
Afternoon Interesting article on ECMWEB - "OSHA Cites Macy's, The Finish Line for Electrical Shock Hazards" (http://ecmweb.com/shock-electrocution/osha-cites-macys-finish-line-electrical-shock-hazards?NL=ECM-04&Issue=ECM-04_20160801_ECM-04_674&sfvc4enews=42&cl=article_7&utm_rid=CPG0400025478&utm_campaign=9488&utm_medium=email&elq2=5b6bd213b60e495db5acd4a96d11a708) Makes me wonder what their management control of the stuff they buy in to sell to customers is like if this is how they "manage" safety in their own stores! John E Allen W.London, UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US
What I meant by common denominator would be only those requirements that make sense to all jurisdictions as opposed to the set of all requirements that may be needed in at least one jurisdiction across all 50 states. Therefore earthquake protection for CA requirements would not be common denominator to my point. I agree that compliance to a national minimum common standard plus all the local incremental additional requirements would be quite the challenge to design to as well as enforce. -Dave From: Ed Price [mailto:edpr...@cox.net] Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2016 2:45 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Dave: “Common denominator” thinking would have the people of Ohio paying for a product that would have California earthquake protection capability. Also, I doubt that California customers would be happy with products that would withstand Ohio earthquake standards. A Federal installation code is possible, but then it would take a bureaucracy the size of the IRS to administer it and would likely contain loopholes and customization down to the County and City level (Google tells me that there are 3,144 Counties and 19,354 “incorporated places” in the USA). It certainly would help employment for compliance engineers (both writing and interpreting it). Ed Price WB6WSN Chula Vista, CA USA -Original Message- From: Nyffenegger, Dave [mailto:dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2016 5:59 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Well you know, what may be fine for Ohio may not be so much in earthquake prone California. Perhaps a minimum common denominator would be fine for all 50 states. -Original Message- From: Richard Nute [mailto:ri...@ieee.org] Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2016 3:45 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US > I cannot see a reason not to have a federal installation code for all > 50 states. The hodgepodge of local rules and regulations seems, on > the surface, unnecessarily > complicated. NIH. Rich - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)<http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org>> Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>> David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>> - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US
Dave: “Common denominator” thinking would have the people of Ohio paying for a product that would have California earthquake protection capability. Also, I doubt that California customers would be happy with products that would withstand Ohio earthquake standards. A Federal installation code is possible, but then it would take a bureaucracy the size of the IRS to administer it and would likely contain loopholes and customization down to the County and City level (Google tells me that there are 3,144 Counties and 19,354 “incorporated places” in the USA). It certainly would help employment for compliance engineers (both writing and interpreting it). Ed Price WB6WSN Chula Vista, CA USA -Original Message- From: Nyffenegger, Dave [mailto:dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2016 5:59 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Well you know, what may be fine for Ohio may not be so much in earthquake prone California. Perhaps a minimum common denominator would be fine for all 50 states. -Original Message- From: Richard Nute [ <mailto:ri...@ieee.org> mailto:ri...@ieee.org] Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2016 3:45 PM To: <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US > I cannot see a reason not to have a federal installation code for all > 50 states. The hodgepodge of local rules and regulations seems, on > the surface, unnecessarily > complicated. NIH. Rich - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US
Well you know, what may be fine for Ohio may not be so much in earthquake prone California. Perhaps a minimum common denominator would be fine for all 50 states. -Original Message- From: Richard Nute [mailto:ri...@ieee.org] Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2016 3:45 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US > I cannot see a reason not to have a federal installation code for all > 50 states. The hodgepodge of local rules and regulations seems, on > the surface, unnecessarily > complicated. NIH. Rich - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald: - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US
> I cannot see a reason not to have a federal installation > code for all 50 states. The hodgepodge of local rules > and regulations seems, on the surface, unnecessarily > complicated. NIH. Rich - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US
I cannot see a reason not to have a federal installation code for all 50 states. The hodgepodge of local rules and regulations seems, on the surface, unnecessarily complicated. By the way, Canada suffers a similar problem with the proliferation of localized requirements. Ralph McDiarmid Product Compliance Engineering Solar Business Schneider Electric From: John Allen [mailto:john_e_al...@blueyonder.co.uk] Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2016 3:23 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US What a web of “interconnecting” (and not!) US regulations, standards, codes and regulatory authorities!. But we still sometimes then get US-based questions on the “European Wiring Regs” or similar - seems like a case of “Physician, heal thyself” first. ☺ John E Allen W.London, UK From: Scott Douglas [mailto:sdouglas...@gmail.com] Sent: 26 July 2016 03:59 To: mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US And not to confuse the issue even more, but then there is the N.E.S.C. - National Electrical Safety Code (or nowadays ANSI Standard C2) published by IEEE. Adopted in most states in some fashion, except for California which does its own thing. I think this one is primarily aimed at utilities though. Dates back to 1913. On 7/25/2016 6:34 PM, Brian O'Connell wrote: Correct, National Electric Code is pro forma NFPA70, or at least per administrative laws of each U.S. state. But the reader should understand that there are state and municipal regulations that also specifically and formally refer to NFPA79 and NFPA99 as national building codes. And the NFPA itself refers to 99 as a national 'Code'. The scope of the thread was OSHA per the NEC and associated test standards, where my premise is that 'code' and standards evolve and are contrived via various circular references. And Mr. Nute pointed to the problem of the various NEC versions enacted locally (most, but not all, have adopted 2014) vs the referenced product safety standard that would be used to verify compliance by the AHJ. And the OSHA cannot affect any force for an organizing change as their statue scopes only workplace safety. Brian From: mailto:msherma...@comcast.net mailto:msherma...@comcast.net Sent: Monday, July 25, 2016 6:02 PM To: Brian O'Connell; mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US NEC is specifically NFPA 70, otherwise known as the National Electrical Code. Sent from Xfinity Connect Mobile App -- Original Message -- From: Brian O'Connell To: mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Sent: July 25, 2016 at 7:26 PM Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US By 'NEC", will assume that the reference is something like NFPA70 or 79. There are, as we all know, many other elements of NFPA construction requirements . NFPAs can reference ANSI, IEC, NEMA, ASME, IEEE, and other standards; and many ANSI, NEMA, and IEEE standards reference one or more NFPA elements in the scope statements. So the references are intended to be circular. Brian From: Richard Nute mailto:ri...@ieee.org Sent: Monday, July 25, 2016 2:15:11 PM To: mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US “Each NRTL has a scope of test standards that they are recognized for…” https://www.osha.gov/dts/otpca/nrtl/ https://www.osha.gov/dts/otpca/nrtl/ http://www.osha.gov OSHA's Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory (NRTL) Program. Recognizes private sector organizations to perform certification for certain products to ensure that ... NRTL certification for OSHA purposes is limited to its scope of test standards. Check out your favorite NRTL for its OSHA test standards. We don’t yet know whether the NEC is limited to the OSHA NRTL scope test standards or is open to all test standards the NRTL certifies products to. (Awful English, but understandable.) And, we don’t yet know whether the locally-adopted NEC will be the OSHA NRTL scope test standards or will be open to all test standards the NRTL certifies products to. Rich - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas <mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org> Mike C
Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US
Hi Scott: Regarding local requirements in a state, county or city, how can they buy a product for particular state, county or city? Normally we sell the product to whole country and it sounds strange to me. What is the normal practice to restrict the movement of the imported products from one state to the other? There are no requirements that would restrict state, county, or city distribution of products. (Indeed, there are no certification requirements that would restrict importation of electrical products to the USA.) Local authorities (state, county, or city) inspect electrical installations. In addition to the construction (to NEC requirements), the products that are used in the construction are inspected for the required certification mark. So, equipment that is permanently installed at the time of construction are inspected. If the equipment is not permanently installed (cord-connected) and installed after the construction is completed and inspected (signed off), the equipment is not likely to be inspected. Note that the local law still requires ALL electrical equipment to be certified. However, certification enforcement of cord-connected products is lax or non-existent. Electricians that do the installation are required (by the local law) to be licensed. This means that they can do the work with minimum inspection by the local authorities. In some localities, a licensed electrician must do all the work, and you and I cannot (but this is difficult to enforce, especially since anyone can buy electrical construction materials). A long time ago, a German printing press was red-tagged (could not be connected to the mains supply) because it did not have an accepted certification. Same for a TV film processor. Both were intended for permanent connection to the mains, and therefore subject to inspection. On the other hand, during construction of a TV studio, cord-connected equipment was being installed at the same time, and it was red-tagged for lack of certification. The universally accepted certification mark is UL. Other marks are now being accepted in most jurisdictions. Now, with the advent of the NEC specifying NRTL certification, we can expect any NRTL to be accepted. Hope this helps you understand the USA certification situation. Best regards, Rich - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US
Power supplies intended to be built in are subject to regulations that would scope the end-use equipment. Battery charger and EPS efficiency standards and test methods and regulations are developed by the DoE/EPA and/or the CEC. Both embedded chargers and external chargers are covered. USB C multi-mode chargers and 'adaptive' EPS are not directly covered, but test conditions may be inferred from 10CFR430. Brian From: Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2016 10:44 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Hi Scott Douglas, Thanks for reminder! Does DoE regulate External Power Suppliers only, not built-in suppliers? What about battery chargers? It may act as charging and power supply. Regards, Scott From: Scott Douglas Reply-To: Scott Douglas Date: Wednesday, 27 July 2016 at 3:47 AM To: Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US And, by the way, don't forget the Department of Energy regulates External Power Supplies. The whole Level VI thing. On Jul 26, 2016 10:38 AM, "Ted Eckert" <07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org> wrote: Hello Scott, The CPSC list you provided a link to covers mandatory national requirements for products covered by the CPSC. The key words are “national” and “mandatory”. There is no mandatory national safety requirement for televisions, refrigerators or many other consumer electrical products. OSHA has requirements for products used in the workplace, but OSHA has no authority over non-work use of these products. As numerous other people have noted, local electrical inspectors may have requirements for what is used in the home, but that depends on what code has been adopted locally. NFPA 70, the National Electrical Code, is fairly commonly adopted, but it is not a national law. It may be adopted by a state, county or city and they may adopt it with their own modifications. Even then, the local inspectors aren’t going to go to stores to check approvals on plug-connected products. They typically only do inspections on new construction and remodeling where a building permit is required. Ted Eckert Microsoft Corporation The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my employer. From: Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2016 10:09 AM To: Ted Eckert ; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Hi Ted, Appreciate your detailed explanation that is very useful for me! OSHA requirements are primarily on the use of equipment at work. For consumer or household products, they are governed by CPSC. I visited CPSC website and tried to find the same thing there. I found the mandatory requirements, ie. Consumer product safety act under below link http://www.cpsc.gov/en/Regulations-Laws--Standards/Regulations-Mandatory-Standards-Bans/ I only found very few products related to above category such as Hair Dryers. No TVs, audios, MWOs, refrigerators, PCs, etc. in the list. I hard to believe they are not regulated. Did I locate incorrect place or the regulation system is different? Tks, Scott From: Ted Eckert <07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org> Reply-To: Ted Eckert Date: Tuesday, 26 July 2016 at 1:55 AM To: Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Hello Scott, OSHA runs the NRTL program. It includes a list of Nationally Recognized Test Laboratories. Click on any one of the labs and it will show the testing standards that lab is recognized for. A product is NRTL Listed if it has been approved by an NRTL under one of their OSHA approved standards and has been included in that lab’s list of approved products. A2LA laboratories have demonstrated that they follow specific procedures for repeatability and proper testing of products with a fairly broad scope of what they can do. NRTL only covers safety standards for a few laboratories and is much narrower in scope than A2LA. Ted Eckert Microsoft Corporation The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my employer, OSHA or A2LA. Your mileage may vary. From: Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, July 25, 2016 9:42 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Hi John, What is exact meaning of NRTL approved? Is it a sample for type examination against applicable safety standard without production audits? What are the differences between A2LA and NRTL? From: "Tyra, John" Reply-To: "Tyra, John" Date: Monday, 25 July 2016 at 10:14 PM To: Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Some states have legal requirements for electrical products to be NRTL approved From: Richard Nute [mailto:ri...@ieee.org] Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2016 8:26 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Hi Scott: For consumer and
Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US
Hello Scott, This is another interesting area of law in the United States. It may be perfectly legal to sell a product in a state while it would be illegal to install and use the product in the same state. Generally, the requirements are only verified in construction where a building permit is required. In those cases, it is up to the installer to know the local code so that they procure equipment in compliance with the local code. Requirements are typically not enforced for plug connected equipment. A consumer who buys a product in a store or on line would likely never have that product checked by an inspector. The laws of the United States generally prohibit restricting the free movement of goods from one state to another. It is up to the purchaser to know if their product meets local laws. Generally, there are few issues. However, there can be. California has stricter automobile emission standards than most other states. If you buy a car in Kentucky and then move to California, you may find that your car can’t be registered in California. Such issues are less likely with consumer electronics. Ted Eckert Microsoft Corporation The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my employer. From: Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2016 10:41 AM To: Ted Eckert ; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Hi Ted, Regarding local requirements in a state, county or city, how can they buy a product for particular state, county or city? Normally we sell the product to whole country and it sounds strange to me. What is the normal practice to restrict the movement of the imported products from one state to the other? Regards, Scott From: Ted Eckert mailto:ted.eck...@microsoft.com>> Date: Wednesday, 27 July 2016 at 1:22 AM To: Raymond Li mailto:scott...@gmail.com>>, "EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>" mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>> Subject: RE: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Hello Scott, The CPSC list you provided a link to covers mandatory national requirements for products covered by the CPSC. The key words are “national” and “mandatory”. There is no mandatory national safety requirement for televisions, refrigerators or many other consumer electrical products. OSHA has requirements for products used in the workplace, but OSHA has no authority over non-work use of these products. As numerous other people have noted, local electrical inspectors may have requirements for what is used in the home, but that depends on what code has been adopted locally. NFPA 70, the National Electrical Code, is fairly commonly adopted, but it is not a national law. It may be adopted by a state, county or city and they may adopt it with their own modifications. Even then, the local inspectors aren’t going to go to stores to check approvals on plug-connected products. They typically only do inspections on new construction and remodeling where a building permit is required. Ted Eckert Microsoft Corporation The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my employer. From: Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2016 10:09 AM To: Ted Eckert mailto:ted.eck...@microsoft.com>>; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Hi Ted, Appreciate your detailed explanation that is very useful for me! OSHA requirements are primarily on the use of equipment at work. For consumer or household products, they are governed by CPSC. I visited CPSC website and tried to find the same thing there. I found the mandatory requirements, ie. Consumer product safety act under below link http://www.cpsc.gov/en/Regulations-Laws--Standards/Regulations-Mandatory-Standards-Bans/ I only found very few products related to above category such as Hair Dryers. No TVs, audios, MWOs, refrigerators, PCs, etc. in the list. I hard to believe they are not regulated. Did I locate incorrect place or the regulation system is different? Tks, Scott From: Ted Eckert <07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org<mailto:07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org>> Reply-To: Ted Eckert mailto:ted.eck...@microsoft.com>> Date: Tuesday, 26 July 2016 at 1:55 AM To: mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>> Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Hello Scott, OSHA runs the NRTL program<https://www.osha.gov/dts/otpca/nrtl/>. It includes a list of Nationally Recognized Test Laboratories<https://www.osha.gov/dts/otpca/nrtl/nrtllist.html>. Click on any one of the labs and it will show the testing standards that lab is recognized for. A product is NRTL Listed if it has been approved by an NRTL under one of their OSHA approved standards and has been included in that lab’s list of approved products. A2LA laborato
Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US
Hi Scott, Keep in mind the NEC is an installation standard, not a product standard. Installations are by nature local so the requirements can vary without too many problems. The equipment approvals required by the NEC also don't vary too much from one edition of the NEC to another, and tend to be satisfied by some type of NRTL Listing if anything at all is required. On Wed, Jul 27, 2016 at 10:40 AM, Scott Xe wrote: > Hi Ted, > > > > Regarding local requirements in a state, county or city, how can they buy > a product for particular state, county or city? Normally we sell the > product to whole country and it sounds strange to me. What is the normal > practice to restrict the movement of the imported products from one state > to the other? > > > > Regards, > > > > Scott > > > > > > > > > > *From: *Ted Eckert > *Date: *Wednesday, 27 July 2016 at 1:22 AM > *To: *Raymond Li , "EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG" < > EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> > *Subject: *RE: [PSES] Safety requirements in US > > > > Hello Scott, > > > > The CPSC list you provided a link to covers mandatory national > requirements for products covered by the CPSC. The key words are “national” > and “mandatory”. There is no mandatory national safety requirement for > televisions, refrigerators or many other consumer electrical products. OSHA > has requirements for products used in the workplace, but OSHA has no > authority over non-work use of these products. > > > > As numerous other people have noted, local electrical inspectors may have > requirements for what is used in the home, but that depends on what code > has been adopted locally. NFPA 70, the National Electrical Code, is fairly > commonly adopted, but it is not a national law. It may be adopted by a > state, county or city and they may adopt it with their own modifications. > Even then, the local inspectors aren’t going to go to stores to check > approvals on plug-connected products. They typically only do inspections on > new construction and remodeling where a building permit is required. > > > > Ted Eckert > > Microsoft Corporation > > > > The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of > my employer. > > > > *From:* Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com] > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 26, 2016 10:09 AM > *To:* Ted Eckert ; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > *Subject:* Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US > > > > Hi Ted, > > > > Appreciate your detailed explanation that is very useful for me! OSHA > requirements are primarily on the use of equipment at work. > > > > For consumer or household products, they are governed by CPSC. I visited > CPSC website and tried to find the same thing there. I found the mandatory > requirements, ie. Consumer product safety act under below link > > > > > http://www.cpsc.gov/en/Regulations-Laws--Standards/Regulations-Mandatory-Standards-Bans/ > > > > I only found very few products related to above category such as Hair > Dryers. No TVs, audios, MWOs, refrigerators, PCs, etc. in the list. I > hard to believe they are not regulated. Did I locate incorrect place or > the regulation system is different? > > > > Tks, > > > > Scott > > > > > > *From: *Ted Eckert <07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org> > *Reply-To: *Ted Eckert > *Date: *Tuesday, 26 July 2016 at 1:55 AM > *To: * > *Subject: *Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US > > > > Hello Scott, > > > > OSHA runs the NRTL program <https://www.osha.gov/dts/otpca/nrtl/>. It > includes a list of Nationally Recognized Test Laboratories > <https://www.osha.gov/dts/otpca/nrtl/nrtllist.html>. Click on any one of > the labs and it will show the testing standards that lab is recognized for. > > > > A product is NRTL Listed if it has been approved by an NRTL under one of > their OSHA approved standards and has been included in that lab’s list of > approved products. > > > > A2LA laboratories have demonstrated that they follow specific procedures > for repeatability and proper testing of products with a fairly broad scope > of what they can do. NRTL only covers safety standards for a few > laboratories and is much narrower in scope than A2LA. > > > > Ted Eckert > > Microsoft Corporation > > > > The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of > my employer, OSHA or A2LA. Your mileage may vary. > > > > *From:* Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com ] > *Sent:* Monday, July 25, 2016 9:42 AM > *To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > *Subject:* Re: [PSES] Safety requirement
Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US
Hi Scott Douglas, Thanks for reminder! Does DoE regulate External Power Suppliers only, not built-in suppliers? What about battery chargers? It may act as charging and power supply. Regards, Scott From: Scott Douglas Reply-To: Scott Douglas Date: Wednesday, 27 July 2016 at 3:47 AM To: Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US And, by the way, don't forget the Department of Energy regulates External Power Supplies. The whole Level VI thing. On Jul 26, 2016 10:38 AM, "Ted Eckert" <07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org> wrote: Hello Scott, The CPSC list you provided a link to covers mandatory national requirements for products covered by the CPSC. The key words are “national” and “mandatory”. There is no mandatory national safety requirement for televisions, refrigerators or many other consumer electrical products. OSHA has requirements for products used in the workplace, but OSHA has no authority over non-work use of these products. As numerous other people have noted, local electrical inspectors may have requirements for what is used in the home, but that depends on what code has been adopted locally. NFPA 70, the National Electrical Code, is fairly commonly adopted, but it is not a national law. It may be adopted by a state, county or city and they may adopt it with their own modifications. Even then, the local inspectors aren’t going to go to stores to check approvals on plug-connected products. They typically only do inspections on new construction and remodeling where a building permit is required. Ted Eckert Microsoft Corporation The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my employer. From: Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2016 10:09 AM To: Ted Eckert ; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Hi Ted, Appreciate your detailed explanation that is very useful for me! OSHA requirements are primarily on the use of equipment at work. For consumer or household products, they are governed by CPSC. I visited CPSC website and tried to find the same thing there. I found the mandatory requirements, ie. Consumer product safety act under below link http://www.cpsc.gov/en/Regulations-Laws--Standards/Regulations-Mandatory-Standards-Bans/ I only found very few products related to above category such as Hair Dryers. No TVs, audios, MWOs, refrigerators, PCs, etc. in the list. I hard to believe they are not regulated. Did I locate incorrect place or the regulation system is different? Tks, Scott From: Ted Eckert <07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org> Reply-To: Ted Eckert Date: Tuesday, 26 July 2016 at 1:55 AM To: Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Hello Scott, OSHA runs the NRTL program. It includes a list of Nationally Recognized Test Laboratories. Click on any one of the labs and it will show the testing standards that lab is recognized for. A product is NRTL Listed if it has been approved by an NRTL under one of their OSHA approved standards and has been included in that lab’s list of approved products. A2LA laboratories have demonstrated that they follow specific procedures for repeatability and proper testing of products with a fairly broad scope of what they can do. NRTL only covers safety standards for a few laboratories and is much narrower in scope than A2LA. Ted Eckert Microsoft Corporation The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my employer, OSHA or A2LA. Your mileage may vary. From: Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, July 25, 2016 9:42 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Hi John, What is exact meaning of NRTL approved? Is it a sample for type examination against applicable safety standard without production audits? What are the differences between A2LA and NRTL? From: "Tyra, John" Reply-To: "Tyra, John" Date: Monday, 25 July 2016 at 10:14 PM To: Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Some states have legal requirements for electrical products to be NRTL approved From: Richard Nute [mailto:ri...@ieee.org] Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2016 8:26 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Hi Scott: For consumer and household products, compliance with CPSC requirements is required. No. Only products considered “substantial product hazards” such as hair dryers need comply with CPSC requirements. However, any consumer product that injures someone is subject to CPSC recall order. What about OSHA? Electrical products that are used by employees are required to be NRTL certified. Best regards, Rich - This message is from the I
Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US
Hi Ted, Regarding local requirements in a state, county or city, how can they buy a product for particular state, county or city? Normally we sell the product to whole country and it sounds strange to me. What is the normal practice to restrict the movement of the imported products from one state to the other? Regards, Scott From: Ted Eckert Date: Wednesday, 27 July 2016 at 1:22 AM To: Raymond Li , "EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG" Subject: RE: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Hello Scott, The CPSC list you provided a link to covers mandatory national requirements for products covered by the CPSC. The key words are “national” and “mandatory”. There is no mandatory national safety requirement for televisions, refrigerators or many other consumer electrical products. OSHA has requirements for products used in the workplace, but OSHA has no authority over non-work use of these products. As numerous other people have noted, local electrical inspectors may have requirements for what is used in the home, but that depends on what code has been adopted locally. NFPA 70, the National Electrical Code, is fairly commonly adopted, but it is not a national law. It may be adopted by a state, county or city and they may adopt it with their own modifications. Even then, the local inspectors aren’t going to go to stores to check approvals on plug-connected products. They typically only do inspections on new construction and remodeling where a building permit is required. Ted Eckert Microsoft Corporation The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my employer. From: Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2016 10:09 AM To: Ted Eckert ; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Hi Ted, Appreciate your detailed explanation that is very useful for me! OSHA requirements are primarily on the use of equipment at work. For consumer or household products, they are governed by CPSC. I visited CPSC website and tried to find the same thing there. I found the mandatory requirements, ie. Consumer product safety act under below link http://www.cpsc.gov/en/Regulations-Laws--Standards/Regulations-Mandatory-Standards-Bans/ I only found very few products related to above category such as Hair Dryers. No TVs, audios, MWOs, refrigerators, PCs, etc. in the list. I hard to believe they are not regulated. Did I locate incorrect place or the regulation system is different? Tks, Scott From: Ted Eckert <07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org> Reply-To: Ted Eckert Date: Tuesday, 26 July 2016 at 1:55 AM To: Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Hello Scott, OSHA runs the NRTL program. It includes a list of Nationally Recognized Test Laboratories. Click on any one of the labs and it will show the testing standards that lab is recognized for. A product is NRTL Listed if it has been approved by an NRTL under one of their OSHA approved standards and has been included in that lab’s list of approved products. A2LA laboratories have demonstrated that they follow specific procedures for repeatability and proper testing of products with a fairly broad scope of what they can do. NRTL only covers safety standards for a few laboratories and is much narrower in scope than A2LA. Ted Eckert Microsoft Corporation The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my employer, OSHA or A2LA. Your mileage may vary. From: Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, July 25, 2016 9:42 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Hi John, What is exact meaning of NRTL approved? Is it a sample for type examination against applicable safety standard without production audits? What are the differences between A2LA and NRTL? From: "Tyra, John" Reply-To: "Tyra, John" Date: Monday, 25 July 2016 at 10:14 PM To: Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Some states have legal requirements for electrical products to be NRTL approved From: Richard Nute [mailto:ri...@ieee.org] Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2016 8:26 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Hi Scott: For consumer and household products, compliance with CPSC requirements is required. No. Only products considered “substantial product hazards” such as hair dryers need comply with CPSC requirements. However, any consumer product that injures someone is subject to CPSC recall order. What about OSHA? Electrical products that are used by employees are required to be NRTL certified. Best regards, Rich - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To pos
Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US
And, by the way, don't forget the Department of Energy regulates External Power Supplies. The whole Level VI thing. On Jul 26, 2016 10:38 AM, "Ted Eckert" < 07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org> wrote: > Hello Scott, > > > > The CPSC list you provided a link to covers mandatory national > requirements for products covered by the CPSC. The key words are “national” > and “mandatory”. There is no mandatory national safety requirement for > televisions, refrigerators or many other consumer electrical products. OSHA > has requirements for products used in the workplace, but OSHA has no > authority over non-work use of these products. > > > > As numerous other people have noted, local electrical inspectors may have > requirements for what is used in the home, but that depends on what code > has been adopted locally. NFPA 70, the National Electrical Code, is fairly > commonly adopted, but it is not a national law. It may be adopted by a > state, county or city and they may adopt it with their own modifications. > Even then, the local inspectors aren’t going to go to stores to check > approvals on plug-connected products. They typically only do inspections on > new construction and remodeling where a building permit is required. > > > > Ted Eckert > > Microsoft Corporation > > > > The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of > my employer. > > > > *From:* Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com] > *Sent:* Tuesday, July 26, 2016 10:09 AM > *To:* Ted Eckert ; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > *Subject:* Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US > > > > Hi Ted, > > > > Appreciate your detailed explanation that is very useful for me! OSHA > requirements are primarily on the use of equipment at work. > > > > For consumer or household products, they are governed by CPSC. I visited > CPSC website and tried to find the same thing there. I found the mandatory > requirements, ie. Consumer product safety act under below link > > > > > http://www.cpsc.gov/en/Regulations-Laws--Standards/Regulations-Mandatory-Standards-Bans/ > > > > I only found very few products related to above category such as Hair > Dryers. No TVs, audios, MWOs, refrigerators, PCs, etc. in the list. I > hard to believe they are not regulated. Did I locate incorrect place or > the regulation system is different? > > > > Tks, > > > > Scott > > > > > > *From: *Ted Eckert <07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org> > *Reply-To: *Ted Eckert > *Date: *Tuesday, 26 July 2016 at 1:55 AM > *To: * > *Subject: *Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US > > > > Hello Scott, > > > > OSHA runs the NRTL program <https://www.osha.gov/dts/otpca/nrtl/>. It > includes a list of Nationally Recognized Test Laboratories > <https://www.osha.gov/dts/otpca/nrtl/nrtllist.html>. Click on any one of > the labs and it will show the testing standards that lab is recognized for. > > > > A product is NRTL Listed if it has been approved by an NRTL under one of > their OSHA approved standards and has been included in that lab’s list of > approved products. > > > > A2LA laboratories have demonstrated that they follow specific procedures > for repeatability and proper testing of products with a fairly broad scope > of what they can do. NRTL only covers safety standards for a few > laboratories and is much narrower in scope than A2LA. > > > > Ted Eckert > > Microsoft Corporation > > > > The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of > my employer, OSHA or A2LA. Your mileage may vary. > > > > *From:* Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com ] > *Sent:* Monday, July 25, 2016 9:42 AM > *To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > *Subject:* Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US > > > > Hi John, > > > > What is exact meaning of NRTL approved? Is it a sample for type > examination against applicable safety standard without production audits? > > > > What are the differences between A2LA and NRTL? > > > > *From: *"Tyra, John" > *Reply-To: *"Tyra, John" > *Date: *Monday, 25 July 2016 at 10:14 PM > *To: * > *Subject: *Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US > > > > Some states have legal requirements for electrical products to be NRTL > approved > > > > *From:* Richard Nute [mailto:ri...@ieee.org ] > *Sent:* Sunday, July 24, 2016 8:26 PM > *To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > *Subject:* Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US > > > > > > Hi Scott: > > > > For consumer and household products, compliance with CPSC require
Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US
Hello Scott, The CPSC list you provided a link to covers mandatory national requirements for products covered by the CPSC. The key words are “national” and “mandatory”. There is no mandatory national safety requirement for televisions, refrigerators or many other consumer electrical products. OSHA has requirements for products used in the workplace, but OSHA has no authority over non-work use of these products. As numerous other people have noted, local electrical inspectors may have requirements for what is used in the home, but that depends on what code has been adopted locally. NFPA 70, the National Electrical Code, is fairly commonly adopted, but it is not a national law. It may be adopted by a state, county or city and they may adopt it with their own modifications. Even then, the local inspectors aren’t going to go to stores to check approvals on plug-connected products. They typically only do inspections on new construction and remodeling where a building permit is required. Ted Eckert Microsoft Corporation The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my employer. From: Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2016 10:09 AM To: Ted Eckert ; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Hi Ted, Appreciate your detailed explanation that is very useful for me! OSHA requirements are primarily on the use of equipment at work. For consumer or household products, they are governed by CPSC. I visited CPSC website and tried to find the same thing there. I found the mandatory requirements, ie. Consumer product safety act under below link http://www.cpsc.gov/en/Regulations-Laws--Standards/Regulations-Mandatory-Standards-Bans/ I only found very few products related to above category such as Hair Dryers. No TVs, audios, MWOs, refrigerators, PCs, etc. in the list. I hard to believe they are not regulated. Did I locate incorrect place or the regulation system is different? Tks, Scott From: Ted Eckert <07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org<mailto:07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org>> Reply-To: Ted Eckert mailto:ted.eck...@microsoft.com>> Date: Tuesday, 26 July 2016 at 1:55 AM To: mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>> Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Hello Scott, OSHA runs the NRTL program<https://www.osha.gov/dts/otpca/nrtl/>. It includes a list of Nationally Recognized Test Laboratories<https://www.osha.gov/dts/otpca/nrtl/nrtllist.html>. Click on any one of the labs and it will show the testing standards that lab is recognized for. A product is NRTL Listed if it has been approved by an NRTL under one of their OSHA approved standards and has been included in that lab’s list of approved products. A2LA laboratories have demonstrated that they follow specific procedures for repeatability and proper testing of products with a fairly broad scope of what they can do. NRTL only covers safety standards for a few laboratories and is much narrower in scope than A2LA. Ted Eckert Microsoft Corporation The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my employer, OSHA or A2LA. Your mileage may vary. From: Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, July 25, 2016 9:42 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Hi John, What is exact meaning of NRTL approved? Is it a sample for type examination against applicable safety standard without production audits? What are the differences between A2LA and NRTL? From: "Tyra, John" mailto:john_t...@bose.com>> Reply-To: "Tyra, John" mailto:john_t...@bose.com>> Date: Monday, 25 July 2016 at 10:14 PM To: mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>> Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Some states have legal requirements for electrical products to be NRTL approved From: Richard Nute [mailto:ri...@ieee.org] Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2016 8:26 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Hi Scott: For consumer and household products, compliance with CPSC requirements is required. No. Only products considered “substantial product hazards” such as hair dryers need comply with CPSC requirements. However, any consumer product that injures someone is subject to CPSC recall order. What about OSHA? Electrical products that are used by employees are required to be NRTL certified. Best regards, Rich - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but
Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US
Hi Ted, Appreciate your detailed explanation that is very useful for me! OSHA requirements are primarily on the use of equipment at work. For consumer or household products, they are governed by CPSC. I visited CPSC website and tried to find the same thing there. I found the mandatory requirements, ie. Consumer product safety act under below link http://www.cpsc.gov/en/Regulations-Laws--Standards/Regulations-Mandatory-Standards-Bans/ I only found very few products related to above category such as Hair Dryers. No TVs, audios, MWOs, refrigerators, PCs, etc. in the list. I hard to believe they are not regulated. Did I locate incorrect place or the regulation system is different? Tks, Scott From: Ted Eckert <07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org> Reply-To: Ted Eckert Date: Tuesday, 26 July 2016 at 1:55 AM To: Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Hello Scott, OSHA runs the NRTL program. It includes a list of Nationally Recognized Test Laboratories. Click on any one of the labs and it will show the testing standards that lab is recognized for. A product is NRTL Listed if it has been approved by an NRTL under one of their OSHA approved standards and has been included in that lab’s list of approved products. A2LA laboratories have demonstrated that they follow specific procedures for repeatability and proper testing of products with a fairly broad scope of what they can do. NRTL only covers safety standards for a few laboratories and is much narrower in scope than A2LA. Ted Eckert Microsoft Corporation The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my employer, OSHA or A2LA. Your mileage may vary. From: Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, July 25, 2016 9:42 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Hi John, What is exact meaning of NRTL approved? Is it a sample for type examination against applicable safety standard without production audits? What are the differences between A2LA and NRTL? From: "Tyra, John" Reply-To: "Tyra, John" Date: Monday, 25 July 2016 at 10:14 PM To: Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Some states have legal requirements for electrical products to be NRTL approved From: Richard Nute [mailto:ri...@ieee.org] Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2016 8:26 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Hi Scott: For consumer and household products, compliance with CPSC requirements is required. No. Only products considered “substantial product hazards” such as hair dryers need comply with CPSC requirements. However, any consumer product that injures someone is subject to CPSC recall order. What about OSHA? Electrical products that are used by employees are required to be NRTL certified. Best regards, Rich - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher David Heald - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher David Heald - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communiti
Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US
NESC and NETA {2013} are both ANSI standards and are both pretty much aimed at
the utility-distribution crowd: aka, 4 kV and above. Colorado Brian Gregory
720-450-4933
-- Original Message --
From: John Allen
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2016 11:23:00 +0100
What a web of “interconnecting” (and not!) US regulations,
standards, codes and regulatory authorities!. But we still sometimes then get
US-based questions on the “European Wiring Regs” or similar - seems
like a case of “Physician, heal thyself” first. J
John E Allen
W.London, UK
From: Scott Douglas [mailto:sdouglas...@gmail.com]
Sent: 26 July 2016 03:59
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US
And not to confuse the issue even more, but then there is the N.E.S.C. -
National Electrical Safety Code (or nowadays ANSI Standard C2) published by
IEEE. Adopted in most states in some fashion, except for California which does
its own thing. I think this one is primarily aimed at utilities though. Dates
back to 1913.
On 7/25/2016 6:34 PM, Brian O'Connell wrote:
Correct, National Electric Code is pro forma NFPA70, or at least per
administrative laws of each U.S. state.
But the reader should understand that there are state and municipal regulations
that also specifically and formally refer to NFPA79 and NFPA99 as national
building codes.
And the NFPA itself refers to 99 as a national 'Code'.
The scope of the thread was OSHA per the NEC and associated test standards,
where my premise is that 'code' and standards evolve and are contrived via
various circular references.
And Mr. Nute pointed to the problem of the various NEC versions enacted locally
(most, but not all, have adopted 2014) vs the referenced product safety
standard that would be used to verify compliance by the AHJ. And the OSHA
cannot affect any force for an organizing change as their statue scopes only
workplace safety.
Brian
From: msherma...@comcast.net
Sent: Monday, July 25, 2016 6:02 PM
To: Brian O'Connell; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US
NEC is specifically NFPA 70, otherwise known as the National Electrical Code.
Sent from Xfinity Connect Mobile App
-- Original Message --
From: Brian O'Connell
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Sent: July 25, 2016 at 7:26 PM
Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US
By 'NEC", will assume that the reference is something like NFPA70 or 79. There
are, as we all know, many other elements of NFPA construction requirements .
NFPAs can reference ANSI, IEC, NEMA, ASME, IEEE, and other standards; and many
ANSI, NEMA, and IEEE standards reference one or more NFPA elements in the scope
statements. So the references are intended to be circular.
Brian
From: Richard Nute
Sent: Monday, July 25, 2016 2:15:11 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US
“Each NRTL has a scope of test standards that they are recognized
for…”
https://www.osha.gov/dts/otpca/nrtl/
Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratories (NRTLs)
www.osha.gov
OSHA's Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory (NRTL) Program. Recognizes
private sector organizations to perform certification for certain products to
ensure that ...
NRTL certification for OSHA purposes is limited to its scope of test standards.
Check out your favorite NRTL for its OSHA test standards.
We don’t yet know whether the NEC is limited to the OSHA NRTL scope test
standards or is open to all test standards the NRTL certifies products to.
(Awful English, but understandable.)
And, we don’t yet know whether the locally-adopted NEC will be the OSHA
NRTL scope test standards or will be open to all test standards the NRTL
certifies products to.
Rich
-
This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to
All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used
formats), large files, etc.
Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas
Mike Cantwell
For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher
David Heald
-
This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to
All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US
What a web of "interconnecting" (and not!) US regulations, standards, codes and regulatory authorities!. But we still sometimes then get US-based questions on the "European Wiring Regs" or similar - seems like a case of "Physician, heal thyself" first. J John E Allen W.London, UK From: Scott Douglas [mailto:sdouglas...@gmail.com] Sent: 26 July 2016 03:59 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US And not to confuse the issue even more, but then there is the N.E.S.C. - National Electrical Safety Code (or nowadays ANSI Standard C2) published by IEEE. Adopted in most states in some fashion, except for California which does its own thing. I think this one is primarily aimed at utilities though. Dates back to 1913. On 7/25/2016 6:34 PM, Brian O'Connell wrote: Correct, National Electric Code is pro forma NFPA70, or at least per administrative laws of each U.S. state. But the reader should understand that there are state and municipal regulations that also specifically and formally refer to NFPA79 and NFPA99 as national building codes. And the NFPA itself refers to 99 as a national 'Code'. The scope of the thread was OSHA per the NEC and associated test standards, where my premise is that 'code' and standards evolve and are contrived via various circular references. And Mr. Nute pointed to the problem of the various NEC versions enacted locally (most, but not all, have adopted 2014) vs the referenced product safety standard that would be used to verify compliance by the AHJ. And the OSHA cannot affect any force for an organizing change as their statue scopes only workplace safety. Brian _ From: msherma...@comcast.net <mailto:msherma...@comcast.net> Sent: Monday, July 25, 2016 6:02 PM To: Brian O'Connell; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US NEC is specifically NFPA 70, otherwise known as the National Electrical Code. Sent from Xfinity Connect Mobile App -- Original Message -- From: Brian O'Connell To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Sent: July 25, 2016 at 7:26 PM Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US By 'NEC", will assume that the reference is something like NFPA70 or 79. There are, as we all know, many other elements of NFPA construction requirements . NFPAs can reference ANSI, IEC, NEMA, ASME, IEEE, and other standards; and many ANSI, NEMA, and IEEE standards reference one or more NFPA elements in the scope statements. So the references are intended to be circular. Brian _ From: Richard Nute <mailto:ri...@ieee.org> Sent: Monday, July 25, 2016 2:15:11 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US "Each NRTL has a scope of test standards that they are recognized for." https://www.osha.gov/dts/otpca/nrtl/ <https://www.osha.gov/dts/otpca/nrtl/> Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratories (NRTLs) www.osha.gov OSHA's Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory (NRTL) Program. Recognizes private sector organizations to perform certification for certain products to ensure that ... NRTL certification for OSHA purposes is limited to its scope of test standards. Check out your favorite NRTL for its OSHA test standards. We don't yet know whether the NEC is limited to the OSHA NRTL scope test standards or is open to all test standards the NRTL certifies products to. (Awful English, but understandable.) And, we don't yet know whether the locally-adopted NEC will be the OSHA NRTL scope test standards or will be open to all test standards the NRTL certifies products to. Rich - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher David Heald - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE P
Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US
You are correct. The NESC is analogous to the NEC, where the NESC is for everything "behind the meter". Utility operators use this as well as NERC requirements. Best, Doug From: Scott DouglasSent: Monday, July 25, 2016 8:59 PMTo: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGReply To: Scott DouglasSubject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US
And not to confuse the issue even more, but then there is the
N.E.S.C. - National Electrical Safety Code (or nowadays ANSI
Standard C2) published by IEEE. Adopted in most states in some
fashion, except for California which does its own thing. I think
this one is primarily aimed at utilities though. Dates back to
1913.
On 7/25/2016 6:34 PM, Brian O'Connell
wrote:
Correct, National Electric Code is pro forma NFPA70, or at
least per administrative laws of each U.S. state.
But the reader should understand that there are state and
municipal regulations that also specifically and formally
refer to NFPA79 and NFPA99 as national building codes.
And the NFPA itself refers to 99 as a national 'Code'.
The scope of the thread was OSHA per the NEC and associated
test standards, where my premise is that 'code' and standards
evolve and are contrived via various circular references.
And Mr. Nute pointed to the problem of the various NEC
versions enacted locally (most, but not all, have adopted
2014) vs the referenced product safety standard that would be
used to verify compliance by the AHJ. And the OSHA cannot
affect any force for an organizing change as their statue
scopes only workplace safety.
Brian
From:
msherma...@comcast.net
Sent: Monday, July 25, 2016 6:02 PM
To: Brian O'Connell; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US
NEC is specifically NFPA 70,
otherwise known as the National Electrical Code.
Sent from Xfinity Connect Mobile App
-- Original Message --
From: Brian O'Connell
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Sent: July 25, 2016 at 7:26 PM
Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US
By 'NEC", will assume that the reference is
something like NFPA70 or 79. There are, as we all
know, many other elements of NFPA construction
requirements . NFPAs can reference ANSI, IEC, NEMA,
ASME, IEEE, and other standards; and many ANSI,
NEMA, and IEEE standards reference one or more NFPA
elements in the scope statements. So the references
are intended to be circular.
Brian
From: Richard Nute
Sent: Monday, July 25, 2016 2:15:11 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US
“Each NRTL has a
scope of test standards that they are recognized
for…�
https://www.osha.gov/dts/otpca/nrtl/
Nationally
Recognized Testing Laboratories
(NRTLs)
www.osha.gov
OSHA's Nationally Recognized Testing
Laboratory (NRTL) Program. Recognizes
Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US
And not to confuse the issue even more, but then there is the N.E.S.C. -
National Electrical Safety Code (or nowadays ANSI Standard C2) published
by IEEE. Adopted in most states in some fashion, except for California
which does its own thing. I think this one is primarily aimed at
utilities though. Dates back to 1913.
On 7/25/2016 6:34 PM, Brian O'Connell wrote:
Correct, National Electric Code is pro forma NFPA70, or at least per
administrative laws of each U.S. state.
But the reader should understand that there are state and municipal
regulations that also specifically and formally refer to NFPA79 and
NFPA99 as national building codes.
And the NFPA itself refers to 99 as a national 'Code'.
The scope of the thread was OSHA per the NEC and associated test
standards, where my premise is that 'code' and standards evolve and
are contrived via various circular references.
And Mr. Nute pointed to the problem of the various NEC versions
enacted locally (most, but not all, have adopted 2014) vs the
referenced product safety standard that would be used to verify
compliance by the AHJ. And the OSHA cannot affect any force for an
organizing change as their statue scopes only workplace safety.
Brian
*From:* msherma...@comcast.net
*Sent:* Monday, July 25, 2016 6:02 PM
*To:* Brian O'Connell; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
*Subject:* Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US
NEC is specifically NFPA 70, otherwise known as the National
Electrical Code.
Sent from Xfinity Connect Mobile App
-- Original Message --
*From: *Brian O'Connell
*To: *EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
*Sent: *July 25, 2016 at 7:26 PM
*Subject: *Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US
By 'NEC", will assume that the reference is something like NFPA70
or 79. There are, as we all know, many other elements of NFPA
construction requirements . NFPAs can reference ANSI, IEC, NEMA,
ASME, IEEE, and other standards; and many ANSI, NEMA, and IEEE
standards reference one or more NFPA elements in the scope
statements. So the references are intended to be circular.
Brian
*From:* Richard Nute
*Sent:* Monday, July 25, 2016 2:15:11 PM
*To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
*Subject:* Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US
“Each NRTL has a scope of test standards that they are recognized
for…”
https://www.osha.gov/dts/otpca/nrtl/
Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratories (NRTLs)
<https://www.osha.gov/dts/otpca/nrtl/>
www.osha.gov
OSHA's Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory (NRTL) Program.
Recognizes private sector organizations to perform certification
for certain products to ensure that ...
NRTL certification for OSHA purposes is limited to its scope of
test standards. Check out your favorite NRTL for its OSHA test
standards.
We don’t yet know whether the NEC is limited to the OSHA NRTL
scope test standards or is open to all test standards the NRTL
certifies products to. (Awful English, but understandable.)
And, we don’t yet know whether the locally-adopted NEC will be the
OSHA NRTL scope test standards or will be open to all test
standards the NRTL certifies products to.
Rich
-
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Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US
Correct, National Electric Code is pro forma NFPA70, or at least per administrative laws of each U.S. state. But the reader should understand that there are state and municipal regulations that also specifically and formally refer to NFPA79 and NFPA99 as national building codes. And the NFPA itself refers to 99 as a national 'Code'. The scope of the thread was OSHA per the NEC and associated test standards, where my premise is that 'code' and standards evolve and are contrived via various circular references. And Mr. Nute pointed to the problem of the various NEC versions enacted locally (most, but not all, have adopted 2014) vs the referenced product safety standard that would be used to verify compliance by the AHJ. And the OSHA cannot affect any force for an organizing change as their statue scopes only workplace safety. Brian From: msherma...@comcast.net Sent: Monday, July 25, 2016 6:02 PM To: Brian O'Connell; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US NEC is specifically NFPA 70, otherwise known as the National Electrical Code. Sent from Xfinity Connect Mobile App -- Original Message -- From: Brian O'Connell To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Sent: July 25, 2016 at 7:26 PM Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US By 'NEC", will assume that the reference is something like NFPA70 or 79. There are, as we all know, many other elements of NFPA construction requirements . NFPAs can reference ANSI, IEC, NEMA, ASME, IEEE, and other standards; and many ANSI, NEMA, and IEEE standards reference one or more NFPA elements in the scope statements. So the references are intended to be circular. Brian From: Richard Nute Sent: Monday, July 25, 2016 2:15:11 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US "Each NRTL has a scope of test standards that they are recognized for..." https://www.osha.gov/dts/otpca/nrtl/ Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratories (NRTLs)<https://www.osha.gov/dts/otpca/nrtl/> www.osha.gov OSHA's Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory (NRTL) Program. Recognizes private sector organizations to perform certification for certain products to ensure that ... NRTL certification for OSHA purposes is limited to its scope of test standards. Check out your favorite NRTL for its OSHA test standards. We don't yet know whether the NEC is limited to the OSHA NRTL scope test standards or is open to all test standards the NRTL certifies products to. (Awful English, but understandable.) And, we don't yet know whether the locally-adopted NEC will be the OSHA NRTL scope test standards or will be open to all test standards the NRTL certifies products to. Rich - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US
NEC is specifically NFPA 70, otherwise known as the National Electrical Code. Sent from Xfinity Connect Mobile App-- Original Message --From: Brian O'ConnellTo: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGSent: July 25, 2016 at 7:26 PMSubject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US By 'NEC", will assume that the reference is something like NFPA70 or 79. There are, as we all know, many other elements of NFPA construction requirements . NFPAs can reference ANSI, IEC, NEMA, ASME, IEEE, and other standards; and many ANSI, NEMA, and IEEE standards reference one or more NFPA elements in the scope statements. So the references are intended to be circular. Brian From: Richard Nute Sent: Monday, July 25, 2016 2:15:11 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US “Each NRTL has a scope of test standards that they are recognized for…” https://www.osha.gov/dts/otpca/nrtl/ Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratories (NRTLs) www.osha.gov OSHA's Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory (NRTL) Program. Recognizes private sector organizations to perform certification for certain products to ensure that ... NRTL certification for OSHA purposes is limited to its scope of test standards. Check out your favorite NRTL for its OSHA test standards. We don’t yet know whether the NEC is limited to the OSHA NRTL scope test standards or is open to all test standards the NRTL certifies products to. (Awful English, but understandable.) And, we don’t yet know whether the locally-adopted NEC will be the OSHA NRTL scope test standards or will be open to all test standards the NRTL certifies products to. Rich - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <emc-p...@ieee.org> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org> Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher <j.bac...@ieee.org> David Heald <dhe...@gmail.com> - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <emc-p...@ieee.org> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org> Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher <j.bac...@ieee.org> David Heald <dhe...@gmail.com>
Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US
By 'NEC", will assume that the reference is something like NFPA70 or 79. There are, as we all know, many other elements of NFPA construction requirements . NFPAs can reference ANSI, IEC, NEMA, ASME, IEEE, and other standards; and many ANSI, NEMA, and IEEE standards reference one or more NFPA elements in the scope statements. So the references are intended to be circular. Brian From: Richard Nute Sent: Monday, July 25, 2016 2:15:11 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US "Each NRTL has a scope of test standards that they are recognized for..." https://www.osha.gov/dts/otpca/nrtl/ Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratories (NRTLs)<https://www.osha.gov/dts/otpca/nrtl/> www.osha.gov OSHA's Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory (NRTL) Program. Recognizes private sector organizations to perform certification for certain products to ensure that ... NRTL certification for OSHA purposes is limited to its scope of test standards. Check out your favorite NRTL for its OSHA test standards. We don't yet know whether the NEC is limited to the OSHA NRTL scope test standards or is open to all test standards the NRTL certifies products to. (Awful English, but understandable.) And, we don't yet know whether the locally-adopted NEC will be the OSHA NRTL scope test standards or will be open to all test standards the NRTL certifies products to. Rich - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US
And a predecessor company to Intertek (Electrical Testing Laboratories) was founded by Thomas Edison in 1896. -Dave From: Pete Perkins [mailto:0061f3f32d0c-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org] Sent: Monday, July 25, 2016 6:52 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Scott, et al, I believe that someone else in this group could write a better history of UL but I’ll provide a condensed version… With the introduction of electricity in the latter part of the 1800’s in the US there were no ‘rules of engagement’ in application. Scott is correct, after the electrification of the Chicago World’s Fair and the ensuing fires the Insurance Underwriters panicked and looked for someone who would inspect all electrical installation in buildings (starting in Chicago, obviously) and give a good report before fire insurance would be issued for the facility. Henry Merrill saw the opportunity and accepted that job and began inspecting installations and, in the end, giving an OK to the insurance companies when it was done ‘right’. He quickly saw that he was looking at the same wire and components over and over again so approached the manufacturers with the proposition that if they would work with him to provide adequate components and wiring it would simplify the inspection work on-site and make approval easier. insurance companies agreed with the concept thus the Underwriter’s Laboratories were born. UL celebrated its 100th anniversary before the turn of the 21st century so they have been around for a while. I’m sure that the situation was similar in many developed countries at that time and similar organizations sprung up to meet the need to provide adequate protection for users. The IEC had its initial meeting in St Louis, MO, USA in 1904 and has been moving forward since. (Hm… not too bad for an amateur) Ok, history buffs, chime in too… (Maybe this should be a Friday discussion) :>) br, Pete Peter E Perkins, PE Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant PO Box 23427 Tigard, ORe 97281-3427 503/452-1201 p.perk...@ieee.org<mailto:p.perk...@ieee.org> From: Scott [mailto:0182a58d8335-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org] Sent: Monday, July 25, 2016 1:40 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Hello all, I believe labeling/ listing first came into place as a response from insurance companies needing concise requirements defining fire hazards. Underwriters Laboratory did not come from a group of VC's that thought it was a cool name. Scott, the other- other Scott Sent from my iPhone On Jul 25, 2016, at 4:32 PM, Ted Eckert <07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org<mailto:07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org>> wrote: OK, now I’m going completely off topic, but here is my opinion. This is only my opinion and it does not necessarily reflect the opinion of my company or anybody else. I completely agree with Pete that consolidation is unlikely. Congressional leaders reward members of their caucus by giving them committee positions, and those committees become minor fiefdoms that congress members defend jealously. Different organizations fall under the oversight of different congressional committees. No one committee appears willing to give up the authority or budget for their area to another committee. Consolidation can happen, but only in extreme circumstances. Even then, it doesn’t necessarily solve the problem. The Department of Homeland Security (DHS) was created after the September 11, 2001 attacks. It consolidated a number of organizations that fell under numerous oversight committees. The result ended up having multiple committees reviewing DHS and approving the budget. I welcome comments from anybody who feels that organizations centralized under DHS have improved significantly due to the new structure. (Intelligence sharing may be an example, but intelligence sharing was banned 40 years ago because of domestic spying abuses. Will it work better this time? One common example of committees protecting their areas of interest is food safety. Let’s say you want to buy lunch at Taco Bell. (I wouldn’t recommend it, but it works for this example.) You order a beef burrito and it is covered under the food safety regulations of the USDA. Your friend orders a bean burrito and their lunch is covered by the FDA. It gets even stranger if somebody orders fish. Which department covers fish depends on the species of fish. An electrical device could fall under CPSC, OSHA, MSHA, the FAA, the FDA, the DoD or any one of a number of organizations for safety depending on its intended use. As much as I hate to say it, my job exist partly due to inefficiency in the regulatory environment. O.K., I’ve vented enough for now. I’ll close my eyes, count to ten slowly an
Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US
Scott, et al, I believe that someone else in this group could write a better history of UL but I’ll provide a condensed version… With the introduction of electricity in the latter part of the 1800’s in the US there were no ‘rules of engagement’ in application. Scott is correct, after the electrification of the Chicago World’s Fair and the ensuing fires the Insurance Underwriters panicked and looked for someone who would inspect all electrical installation in buildings (starting in Chicago, obviously) and give a good report before fire insurance would be issued for the facility. Henry Merrill saw the opportunity and accepted that job and began inspecting installations and, in the end, giving an OK to the insurance companies when it was done ‘right’. He quickly saw that he was looking at the same wire and components over and over again so approached the manufacturers with the proposition that if they would work with him to provide adequate components and wiring it would simplify the inspection work on-site and make approval easier. insurance companies agreed with the concept thus the Underwriter’s Laboratories were born. UL celebrated its 100th anniversary before the turn of the 21st century so they have been around for a while. I’m sure that the situation was similar in many developed countries at that time and similar organizations sprung up to meet the need to provide adequate protection for users. The IEC had its initial meeting in St Louis, MO, USA in 1904 and has been moving forward since. (Hm… not too bad for an amateur) Ok, history buffs, chime in too… (Maybe this should be a Friday discussion) :>) br, Pete Peter E Perkins, PE Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant PO Box 23427 Tigard, ORe 97281-3427 503/452-1201 <mailto:p.perk...@ieee.org> p.perk...@ieee.org From: Scott [mailto:0182a58d8335-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org] Sent: Monday, July 25, 2016 1:40 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Hello all, I believe labeling/ listing first came into place as a response from insurance companies needing concise requirements defining fire hazards. Underwriters Laboratory did not come from a group of VC's that thought it was a cool name. Scott, the other- other Scott Sent from my iPhone On Jul 25, 2016, at 4:32 PM, Ted Eckert <07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org <mailto:07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org> > wrote: OK, now I’m going completely off topic, but here is my opinion. This is only my opinion and it does not necessarily reflect the opinion of my company or anybody else. I completely agree with Pete that consolidation is unlikely. Congressional leaders reward members of their caucus by giving them committee positions, and those committees become minor fiefdoms that congress members defend jealously. Different organizations fall under the oversight of different congressional committees. No one committee appears willing to give up the authority or budget for their area to another committee. Consolidation can happen, but only in extreme circumstances. Even then, it doesn’t necessarily solve the problem. The Department of Homeland Security (DHS) was created after the September 11, 2001 attacks. It consolidated a number of organizations that fell under numerous oversight committees. The result ended up having multiple committees reviewing DHS and approving the budget. I welcome comments from anybody who feels that organizations centralized under DHS have improved significantly due to the new structure. (Intelligence sharing may be an example, but intelligence sharing was banned 40 years ago because of domestic spying abuses. Will it work better this time? One common example of committees protecting their areas of interest is food safety. Let’s say you want to buy lunch at Taco Bell. (I wouldn’t recommend it, but it works for this example.) You order a beef burrito and it is covered under the food safety regulations of the USDA. Your friend orders a bean burrito and their lunch is covered by the FDA. It gets even stranger if somebody orders fish. Which department covers fish depends on the species of fish. An electrical device could fall under CPSC, OSHA, MSHA, the FAA, the FDA, the DoD or any one of a number of organizations for safety depending on its intended use. As much as I hate to say it, my job exist partly due to inefficiency in the regulatory environment. O.K., I’ve vented enough for now. I’ll close my eyes, count to ten slowly and then get back to work. Ted Eckert Microsoft Corporation The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my employer. From: Pete Perkins [mailto:0061f3f32d0c-dmarc-requ...@ie
Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US
Hello Scott, OSHA runs the NRTL program<https://www.osha.gov/dts/otpca/nrtl/>. It includes a list of Nationally Recognized Test Laboratories<https://www.osha.gov/dts/otpca/nrtl/nrtllist.html>. Click on any one of the labs and it will show the testing standards that lab is recognized for. A product is NRTL Listed if it has been approved by an NRTL under one of their OSHA approved standards and has been included in that lab’s list of approved products. A2LA laboratories have demonstrated that they follow specific procedures for repeatability and proper testing of products with a fairly broad scope of what they can do. NRTL only covers safety standards for a few laboratories and is much narrower in scope than A2LA. Ted Eckert Microsoft Corporation The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my employer, OSHA or A2LA. Your mileage may vary. From: Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, July 25, 2016 9:42 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Hi John, What is exact meaning of NRTL approved? Is it a sample for type examination against applicable safety standard without production audits? What are the differences between A2LA and NRTL? From: "Tyra, John" mailto:john_t...@bose.com>> Reply-To: "Tyra, John" mailto:john_t...@bose.com>> Date: Monday, 25 July 2016 at 10:14 PM To: mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>> Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Some states have legal requirements for electrical products to be NRTL approved From: Richard Nute [mailto:ri...@ieee.org] Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2016 8:26 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Hi Scott: For consumer and household products, compliance with CPSC requirements is required. No. Only products considered “substantial product hazards” such as hair dryers need comply with CPSC requirements. However, any consumer product that injures someone is subject to CPSC recall order. What about OSHA? Electrical products that are used by employees are required to be NRTL certified. Best regards, Rich - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)<http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org>> Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>> David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>> - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)<http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org>> Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>> David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>> - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)<http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list
Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US
“Each NRTL has a scope of test standards that they are recognized for…” https://www.osha.gov/dts/otpca/nrtl/ NRTL certification for OSHA purposes is limited to its scope of test standards. Check out your favorite NRTL for its OSHA test standards. We don’t yet know whether the NEC is limited to the OSHA NRTL scope test standards or is open to all test standards the NRTL certifies products to. (Awful English, but understandable.) And, we don’t yet know whether the locally-adopted NEC will be the OSHA NRTL scope test standards or will be open to all test standards the NRTL certifies products to. Rich - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US
Hello all, I believe labeling/ listing first came into place as a response from insurance companies needing concise requirements defining fire hazards. Underwriters Laboratory did not come from a group of VC's that thought it was a cool name. Scott, the other- other Scott Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 25, 2016, at 4:32 PM, Ted Eckert > <07cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org> wrote: > > OK, now I’m going completely off topic, but here is my opinion. This is only > my opinion and it does not necessarily reflect the opinion of my company or > anybody else. > > I completely agree with Pete that consolidation is unlikely. Congressional > leaders reward members of their caucus by giving them committee positions, > and those committees become minor fiefdoms that congress members defend > jealously. Different organizations fall under the oversight of different > congressional committees. No one committee appears willing to give up the > authority or budget for their area to another committee. > > Consolidation can happen, but only in extreme circumstances. Even then, it > doesn’t necessarily solve the problem. The Department of Homeland Security > (DHS) was created after the September 11, 2001 attacks. It consolidated a > number of organizations that fell under numerous oversight committees. The > result ended up having multiple committees reviewing DHS and approving the > budget. I welcome comments from anybody who feels that organizations > centralized under DHS have improved significantly due to the new structure. > (Intelligence sharing may be an example, but intelligence sharing was banned > 40 years ago because of domestic spying abuses. Will it work better this time? > > One common example of committees protecting their areas of interest is food > safety. Let’s say you want to buy lunch at Taco Bell. (I wouldn’t recommend > it, but it works for this example.) You order a beef burrito and it is > covered under the food safety regulations of the USDA. Your friend orders a > bean burrito and their lunch is covered by the FDA. It gets even stranger if > somebody orders fish. Which department covers fish depends on the species of > fish. > > An electrical device could fall under CPSC, OSHA, MSHA, the FAA, the FDA, the > DoD or any one of a number of organizations for safety depending on its > intended use. As much as I hate to say it, my job exist partly due to > inefficiency in the regulatory environment. > > O.K., I’ve vented enough for now. I’ll close my eyes, count to ten slowly and > then get back to work. > > Ted Eckert > Microsoft Corporation > > The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my > employer. > > From: Pete Perkins [mailto:00000061f3f32d0c-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org] > Sent: Monday, July 25, 2016 1:03 PM > To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US > > John, et al, > >The WEB definition of NRTL is quite narrow. As we explained > earlier, Labeling/Listing by a NRTL approved lab is an NEC concept which is > administered by OSHA. > > The placement of this responsibility came upon OSHA not by legislation but by > litigation when a test lab challenged the premise that, altho > Labeling/Listing was required, there was no way for additional test labs to > get on the list. The battle went all the way to the US Supreme Court and > OSHA lost and, subsequently, were forced to develop the NRTL acceptance > program which they run today. > > Apparently the 2017 NEC will now require NRTL Labeling of products which will > continue to be honored by all 10k US Jurisdictions and enforced by the AHJs > in each. > > I personally don’t see any effort to simplify or consolidate the US system > any time soon. Especially in the climate of Brexit and other forces presently > at work. > > :>) br, Pete > > Peter E Perkins, PE > Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant > PO Box 23427 > Tigard, ORe 97281-3427 > > 503/452-1201 > > p.perk...@ieee.org > > From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com] > Sent: Monday, July 25, 2016 11:53 AM > To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US > > From the WEB: NRTL Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratories, or NRTLs, are > third party organizations recognized by the Occupational Safety and Health > Administration (OSHA) under Federal code 29 CFR 1910.7 to provide product > safety testing and certification services for products used in the US > workplace. > > With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only > www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M W
Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US
OK, now I’m going completely off topic, but here is my opinion. This is only my opinion and it does not necessarily reflect the opinion of my company or anybody else. I completely agree with Pete that consolidation is unlikely. Congressional leaders reward members of their caucus by giving them committee positions, and those committees become minor fiefdoms that congress members defend jealously. Different organizations fall under the oversight of different congressional committees. No one committee appears willing to give up the authority or budget for their area to another committee. Consolidation can happen, but only in extreme circumstances. Even then, it doesn’t necessarily solve the problem. The Department of Homeland Security (DHS) was created after the September 11, 2001 attacks. It consolidated a number of organizations that fell under numerous oversight committees. The result ended up having multiple committees reviewing DHS and approving the budget. I welcome comments from anybody who feels that organizations centralized under DHS have improved significantly due to the new structure. (Intelligence sharing may be an example, but intelligence sharing was banned 40 years ago because of domestic spying abuses. Will it work better this time? One common example of committees protecting their areas of interest is food safety. Let’s say you want to buy lunch at Taco Bell. (I wouldn’t recommend it, but it works for this example.) You order a beef burrito and it is covered under the food safety regulations of the USDA. Your friend orders a bean burrito and their lunch is covered by the FDA. It gets even stranger if somebody orders fish. Which department covers fish depends on the species of fish. An electrical device could fall under CPSC, OSHA, MSHA, the FAA, the FDA, the DoD or any one of a number of organizations for safety depending on its intended use. As much as I hate to say it, my job exist partly due to inefficiency in the regulatory environment. O.K., I’ve vented enough for now. I’ll close my eyes, count to ten slowly and then get back to work. Ted Eckert Microsoft Corporation The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my employer. From: Pete Perkins [mailto:0061f3f32d0c-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org] Sent: Monday, July 25, 2016 1:03 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US John, et al, The WEB definition of NRTL is quite narrow. As we explained earlier, Labeling/Listing by a NRTL approved lab is an NEC concept which is administered by OSHA. The placement of this responsibility came upon OSHA not by legislation but by litigation when a test lab challenged the premise that, altho Labeling/Listing was required, there was no way for additional test labs to get on the list. The battle went all the way to the US Supreme Court and OSHA lost and, subsequently, were forced to develop the NRTL acceptance program which they run today. Apparently the 2017 NEC will now require NRTL Labeling of products which will continue to be honored by all 10k US Jurisdictions and enforced by the AHJs in each. I personally don’t see any effort to simplify or consolidate the US system any time soon. Especially in the climate of Brexit and other forces presently at work. :>) br, Pete Peter E Perkins, PE Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant PO Box 23427 Tigard, ORe 97281-3427 503/452-1201 p.perk...@ieee.org<mailto:p.perk...@ieee.org> From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com] Sent: Monday, July 25, 2016 11:53 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US From the WEB: NRTL Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratories, or NRTLs, are third party organizations recognized by the Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) under Federal code 29 CFR 1910.7 to provide product safety testing and certification services for products used in the US workplace. With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only www.jmwa.demon.co.uk<http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk/> J M Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England Sylvae in aeternum manent. From: Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, July 25, 2016 5:42 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG<mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Hi John, What is exact meaning of NRTL approved? Is it a sample for type examination against applicable safety standard without production audits? What are the differences between A2LA and NRTL? From: "Tyra, John" mailto:john_t...@bose.com>> Reply-To: "Tyra, John" mailto:john_t...@bose.com>> Date: Monday, 25 July 2016 at 10:14 PM To: mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>> Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Some states have legal requirements for electrical products to be N
Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US
John, et al, The WEB definition of NRTL is quite narrow. As we explained earlier, Labeling/Listing by a NRTL approved lab is an NEC concept which is administered by OSHA. The placement of this responsibility came upon OSHA not by legislation but by litigation when a test lab challenged the premise that, altho Labeling/Listing was required, there was no way for additional test labs to get on the list. The battle went all the way to the US Supreme Court and OSHA lost and, subsequently, were forced to develop the NRTL acceptance program which they run today. Apparently the 2017 NEC will now require NRTL Labeling of products which will continue to be honored by all 10k US Jurisdictions and enforced by the AHJs in each. I personally don’t see any effort to simplify or consolidate the US system any time soon. Especially in the climate of Brexit and other forces presently at work. :>) br, Pete Peter E Perkins, PE Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant PO Box 23427 Tigard, ORe 97281-3427 503/452-1201 <mailto:p.perk...@ieee.org> p.perk...@ieee.org From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com] Sent: Monday, July 25, 2016 11:53 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US >From the WEB: NRTL Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratories, or NRTLs, are >third party organizations recognized by the Occupational Safety and Health >Administration (OSHA) under Federal code 29 CFR 1910.7 to provide product >safety testing and certification services for products used in the US >workplace. With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only <http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk/> www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England Sylvae in aeternum manent. From: Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, July 25, 2016 5:42 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Hi John, What is exact meaning of NRTL approved? Is it a sample for type examination against applicable safety standard without production audits? What are the differences between A2LA and NRTL? From: "Tyra, John" mailto:john_t...@bose.com> > Reply-To: "Tyra, John" mailto:john_t...@bose.com> > Date: Monday, 25 July 2016 at 10:14 PM To: mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> > Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Some states have legal requirements for electrical products to be NRTL approved From: Richard Nute [mailto:ri...@ieee.org] Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2016 8:26 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Hi Scott: For consumer and household products, compliance with CPSC requirements is required. No. Only products considered “substantial product hazards” such as hair dryers need comply with CPSC requirements. However, any consumer product that injures someone is subject to CPSC recall order. What about OSHA? Electrical products that are used by employees are required to be NRTL certified. Best regards, Rich - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org> > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org> > Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org> > For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org> > David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com> > - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org> > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee
Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US
Nice explanation Pete! Scott, et al - great questions! These and many other basic questions get answered at the Symposium in the Compliance 101 Track. Be sure to keep an eye out for announcements. For those who have knowledge to share, the call for papers for the 2017 Symposium is already out - http://ewh.ieee.org/soc/pses/symposium/index.html. Be Safe! John From: Pete Perkins <0061f3f32d0c-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org> Sent: Monday, July 25, 2016 12:47 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Scott, As a newcomer, you are quite perceptive at asking food questions. There has been some discussion of how the responsibilities are divided between jurisdictions in the US but there is one common thread in all of this. The US NEC (National Electric Code) has always provided guidance in this. The wording and explanation have changed with time but the intent seems the same. The NEC applies to Utilization Equipment: Equipment that utilizes electrical energy for electronic, electromechanical, chemical., heating, lighting or similar purposes. And Approved: Acceptable to the AHJ (Authority Having Jurisdiction). And Labeled: Equipment or materials to which has been attached a label, symbol, or other identifying mark of an organization that is acceptable to the AHJ and concerned with product evaluation, that maintains periodic inspection of production of labeled equipment or materials, aby by whose labeling the manufacturer indicated compliance with appropriate standards or performance in a specified manner. Organization acceptable to the AHJ has come to mean NRTL certifying laboratory. The NRTL lab certification program is organized by OSHA but applies more broadly than the OSHA requirements themselves. There are more than a handful off NRTL approved labs (all qualified for specific types of equipment); you can see the list on the OSHA website along with the details as to their product class certifications. In the US, UL is the 800 lb gorilla in this business but there is vigorous competition. All of these NRTL labs, I believe, work with manufacturers on a worldwide basis; their certification label shown proof of compliance with the NEC. The US safety requirements for products are from ANSI standards. For the products that I most commonly work with UL is important in developing the standards and closely works with the US committees as well as the corresponding IEC committee, too, as the US is working to harmonize technical safety requirements on a worldwide basis for many product groups (e.g. ITE 62368, Test/Measurement/Process Control 61010, etc.). So, I think that your basic understanding is correct. The products have to be certified to a US standard by a NRTL cert lab which does an examination/testing of a sample product and, upon successful completion of the evaluation, issues a certification (Listing in many cases) then does ongoing factory inspections on a regular basis to ensure that the labeled product continues to be manufactured in the same way as the product evaluated. I hope that this long-winded explanation is helpful to you. :>) br, Pete Peter E Perkins, PE Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant PO Box 23427 Tigard, ORe 97281-3427 503/452-1201 p.perk...@ieee.org<mailto:p.perk...@ieee.org> From: Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, July 25, 2016 9:52 AM To: Pete Perkins ; 'Scott Xe' ; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Hi Peter, Yes, I have got that feeling. It is difficult to ask a manufacturer designing a product meeting US requirements. It sounds no certain places to provide such information. What is the exact meaning of NRTL certification? Is NRTL accredited laboratory in the US? What can they certify a sample or production? Understand UL listed certifies both sample and production. Sorry for my silly questions as you know I am just a new comer in this area. From: Pete Perkins mailto:peperkin...@cs.com>> Date: Monday, 25 July 2016 at 11:55 PM To: Raymond Li mailto:scott...@gmail.com>>, mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>> Subject: RE: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Scott, There has been quite a bit of discussion here on US requirements. As you can tell there is no ‘overall’ single US requirement that covers everything. The final say is locally for most instances; the local AHJ inspectors have local control. Local inspectors have access to all construction – both new construction and substantial remodeling – and must approve the final construction, including the electrical installation. They can
Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US
>From the WEB: NRTL Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratories, or NRTLs, are >third party organizations recognized by the Occupational Safety and Health >Administration (OSHA) under Federal code 29 CFR 1910.7 to provide product >safety testing and certification services for products used in the US >workplace. With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only <http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk/> www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England Sylvae in aeternum manent. From: Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, July 25, 2016 5:42 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Hi John, What is exact meaning of NRTL approved? Is it a sample for type examination against applicable safety standard without production audits? What are the differences between A2LA and NRTL? From: "Tyra, John" mailto:john_t...@bose.com> > Reply-To: "Tyra, John" mailto:john_t...@bose.com> > Date: Monday, 25 July 2016 at 10:14 PM To: mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> > Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Some states have legal requirements for electrical products to be NRTL approved From: Richard Nute [mailto:ri...@ieee.org] Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2016 8:26 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Hi Scott: For consumer and household products, compliance with CPSC requirements is required. No. Only products considered “substantial product hazards” such as hair dryers need comply with CPSC requirements. However, any consumer product that injures someone is subject to CPSC recall order. What about OSHA? Electrical products that are used by employees are required to be NRTL certified. Best regards, Rich - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org> > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org> > Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org> > For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org> > David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com> > - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org> > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org> > Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org> > For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org> > David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com> > - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org> > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org> > Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org> > For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org> > David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com> > - This message is from the IEEE Product S
Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US
Scott, As a newcomer, you are quite perceptive at asking food questions. There has been some discussion of how the responsibilities are divided between jurisdictions in the US but there is one common thread in all of this. The US NEC (National Electric Code) has always provided guidance in this. The wording and explanation have changed with time but the intent seems the same. The NEC applies to Utilization Equipment: Equipment that utilizes electrical energy for electronic, electromechanical, chemical., heating, lighting or similar purposes. And Approved: Acceptable to the AHJ (Authority Having Jurisdiction). And Labeled: Equipment or materials to which has been attached a label, symbol, or other identifying mark of an organization that is acceptable to the AHJ and concerned with product evaluation, that maintains periodic inspection of production of labeled equipment or materials, aby by whose labeling the manufacturer indicated compliance with appropriate standards or performance in a specified manner. Organization acceptable to the AHJ has come to mean NRTL certifying laboratory. The NRTL lab certification program is organized by OSHA but applies more broadly than the OSHA requirements themselves. There are more than a handful off NRTL approved labs (all qualified for specific types of equipment); you can see the list on the OSHA website along with the details as to their product class certifications. In the US, UL is the 800 lb gorilla in this business but there is vigorous competition. All of these NRTL labs, I believe, work with manufacturers on a worldwide basis; their certification label shown proof of compliance with the NEC. The US safety requirements for products are from ANSI standards. For the products that I most commonly work with UL is important in developing the standards and closely works with the US committees as well as the corresponding IEC committee, too, as the US is working to harmonize technical safety requirements on a worldwide basis for many product groups (e.g. ITE 62368, Test/Measurement/Process Control 61010, etc.). So, I think that your basic understanding is correct. The products have to be certified to a US standard by a NRTL cert lab which does an examination/testing of a sample product and, upon successful completion of the evaluation, issues a certification (Listing in many cases) then does ongoing factory inspections on a regular basis to ensure that the labeled product continues to be manufactured in the same way as the product evaluated. I hope that this long-winded explanation is helpful to you. :>) br, Pete Peter E Perkins, PE Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant PO Box 23427 Tigard, ORe 97281-3427 503/452-1201 <mailto:p.perk...@ieee.org> p.perk...@ieee.org From: Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, July 25, 2016 9:52 AM To: Pete Perkins ; 'Scott Xe' ; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Hi Peter, Yes, I have got that feeling. It is difficult to ask a manufacturer designing a product meeting US requirements. It sounds no certain places to provide such information. What is the exact meaning of NRTL certification? Is NRTL accredited laboratory in the US? What can they certify a sample or production? Understand UL listed certifies both sample and production. Sorry for my silly questions as you know I am just a new comer in this area. From: Pete Perkins mailto:peperkin...@cs.com> > Date: Monday, 25 July 2016 at 11:55 PM To: Raymond Li mailto:scott...@gmail.com> >, mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> > Subject: RE: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Scott, There has been quite a bit of discussion here on US requirements. As you can tell there is no ‘overall’ single US requirement that covers everything. The final say is locally for most instances; the local AHJ inspectors have local control. Local inspectors have access to all construction – both new construction and substantial remodeling – and must approve the final construction, including the electrical installation. They can refuse to accept any unit for attachment to the grid power based upon their local laws, rules and understanding, s we have commented previously. There are more than 10k jurisdictions in the USA. This is confusing to outsiders who are looking for a simple solution such as the EU has developed. Since you have asked; the best response of manufacturers is to provide NRTL certification for their product when it is sold in the USA. This is additional effort and, possibly, additio
Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US
Hi Peter, Yes, I have got that feeling. It is difficult to ask a manufacturer designing a product meeting US requirements. It sounds no certain places to provide such information. What is the exact meaning of NRTL certification? Is NRTL accredited laboratory in the US? What can they certify a sample or production? Understand UL listed certifies both sample and production. Sorry for my silly questions as you know I am just a new comer in this area. From: Pete Perkins Date: Monday, 25 July 2016 at 11:55 PM To: Raymond Li , Subject: RE: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Scott, There has been quite a bit of discussion here on US requirements. As you can tell there is no ‘overall’ single US requirement that covers everything. The final say is locally for most instances; the local AHJ inspectors have local control. Local inspectors have access to all construction – both new construction and substantial remodeling – and must approve the final construction, including the electrical installation. They can refuse to accept any unit for attachment to the grid power based upon their local laws, rules and understanding, s we have commented previously. There are more than 10k jurisdictions in the USA. This is confusing to outsiders who are looking for a simple solution such as the EU has developed. Since you have asked; the best response of manufacturers is to provide NRTL certification for their product when it is sold in the USA. This is additional effort and, possibly, additional cost since there is a finite list of NRTL labs. Since most NRTLs will also issue a CB Report where the requirements are harmonized, I have advised manufacturers to obtain both evaluations and reports at the same time for a savings in effort and cost. :>) br, Pete Peter E Perkins, PE Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant PO Box 23427 Tigard, ORe 97281-3427 503/452-1201 p.perk...@ieee.org From: Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2016 10:31 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Thanks for all your responses! What is the best practice for the suppliers/importers to demonstrate the compliance with relevant requirements? Scott From: Ron Wellman Reply-To: Ron Wellman Date: Sunday, 24 July 2016 at 12:14 AM To: Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US United States laws are codified in the United States Code (USC). The Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) is the implementation of the laws in the USC. Ron From: Doug Powell [mailto:doug...@gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2016 7:38 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Actually, I think FDA, FCC, FTA, USDA, CDC, Homeland Security, etc. all report up to the CFR. Doug From: Nyffenegger, Dave Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2016 8:32 AM To: Doug Powell; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: RE: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Anything with a laser in it is also governed by FDA regs. I think the objective is to make it so confusing that no-one can figure it out completely and the lawyers will always have something to do. -Dave From: Doug Powell [mailto:doug...@gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2016 10:08 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Ultimately, everything goes up to the Code of Federal Regulations, CFR. These are the law of the land. You can find the regulations that both OSHA and CPSC follow there. In turn, each state has their own set of laws, for example in my home state are the Colorado Revised Statutes, CRS. Usually all these can be found online at no charge. All the best, Doug From: Kevin Robinson Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2016 2:47 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Reply To: Kevin Robinson Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Scott, In the US, the regulations rounds on the type of product and where it will be used. For example: If the product will be used in the workplace then Osha NRTL regs apply. If the product will be used in the home or around schools, then CPSC regs apply. If the product is a medical device then FDA regs apply Most products fall under multiple regulators as for example, a hospital is both a medical space as well as a workplace. Thankfully, most us regulations reference voluntary consensus standards so one round of testing will often satisfy all safety regulators. Kevin Robinson Get Outlook for iOS _ From: Scott Xe Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2016 1:30 AM Subject: [PSES] Safety requirements in US To: Within EU, most of electrical products are covered by LVD and GPSD. In US, which body, law and standards are responsible for the similar reg
Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US
Hi John, What is exact meaning of NRTL approved? Is it a sample for type examination against applicable safety standard without production audits? What are the differences between A2LA and NRTL? From: "Tyra, John" Reply-To: "Tyra, John" Date: Monday, 25 July 2016 at 10:14 PM To: Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Some states have legal requirements for electrical products to be NRTL approved From: Richard Nute [mailto:ri...@ieee.org] Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2016 8:26 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Hi Scott: For consumer and household products, compliance with CPSC requirements is required. No. Only products considered “substantial product hazards” such as hair dryers need comply with CPSC requirements. However, any consumer product that injures someone is subject to CPSC recall order. What about OSHA? Electrical products that are used by employees are required to be NRTL certified. Best regards, Rich - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher David Heald - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher David Heald - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US
Scott, There has been quite a bit of discussion here on US requirements. As you can tell there is no ‘overall’ single US requirement that covers everything. The final say is locally for most instances; the local AHJ inspectors have local control. Local inspectors have access to all construction – both new construction and substantial remodeling – and must approve the final construction, including the electrical installation. They can refuse to accept any unit for attachment to the grid power based upon their local laws, rules and understanding, s we have commented previously. There are more than 10k jurisdictions in the USA. This is confusing to outsiders who are looking for a simple solution such as the EU has developed. Since you have asked; the best response of manufacturers is to provide NRTL certification for their product when it is sold in the USA. This is additional effort and, possibly, additional cost since there is a finite list of NRTL labs. Since most NRTLs will also issue a CB Report where the requirements are harmonized, I have advised manufacturers to obtain both evaluations and reports at the same time for a savings in effort and cost. :>) br, Pete Peter E Perkins, PE Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant PO Box 23427 Tigard, ORe 97281-3427 503/452-1201 <mailto:p.perk...@ieee.org> p.perk...@ieee.org From: Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2016 10:31 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Thanks for all your responses! What is the best practice for the suppliers/importers to demonstrate the compliance with relevant requirements? Scott From: Ron Wellman mailto:rwell...@wellman.com> > Reply-To: Ron Wellman mailto:rwell...@wellman.com> > Date: Sunday, 24 July 2016 at 12:14 AM To: mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> > Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US United States laws are codified in the United States Code (USC). The Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) is the implementation of the laws in the USC. Ron From: Doug Powell [mailto:doug...@gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2016 7:38 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Actually, I think FDA, FCC, FTA, USDA, CDC, Homeland Security, etc. all report up to the CFR. Doug From: Nyffenegger, Dave Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2016 8:32 AM To: Doug Powell; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> Subject: RE: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Anything with a laser in it is also governed by FDA regs. I think the objective is to make it so confusing that no-one can figure it out completely and the lawyers will always have something to do. -Dave From: Doug Powell [mailto:doug...@gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2016 10:08 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Ultimately, everything goes up to the Code of Federal Regulations, CFR. These are the law of the land. You can find the regulations that both OSHA and CPSC follow there. In turn, each state has their own set of laws, for example in my home state are the Colorado Revised Statutes, CRS. Usually all these can be found online at no charge. All the best, Doug From: Kevin Robinson Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2016 2:47 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> Reply To: Kevin Robinson Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Scott, In the US, the regulations rounds on the type of product and where it will be used. For example: If the product will be used in the workplace then Osha NRTL regs apply. If the product will be used in the home or around schools, then CPSC regs apply. If the product is a medical device then FDA regs apply Most products fall under multiple regulators as for example, a hospital is both a medical space as well as a workplace. Thankfully, most us regulations reference voluntary consensus standards so one round of testing will often satisfy all safety regulators. Kevin Robinson Get Outlook for iOS <https://aka.ms/o0ukef> _ From: Scott Xe mailto:scott...@gmail.com> > Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2016 1:30 AM Subject: [PSES] Safety requirements in US To: mailto:emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org> > Within EU, most of electrical products are covered by LVD and GPSD. In US, which body, law and standards are responsible for the similar regulatory? - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to
Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US
Some states have legal requirements for electrical products to be NRTL approved From: Richard Nute [mailto:ri...@ieee.org] Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2016 8:26 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Hi Scott: For consumer and household products, compliance with CPSC requirements is required. No. Only products considered “substantial product hazards” such as hair dryers need comply with CPSC requirements. However, any consumer product that injures someone is subject to CPSC recall order. What about OSHA? Electrical products that are used by employees are required to be NRTL certified. Best regards, Rich - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)<http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org>> Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>> David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>> - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US
OSHA has an exception for custom machinery that is self-certified by the manufacturer. -Dave From: Kevin Robinson [mailto:kevinrobinso...@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2016 9:16 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Scott, >>> What about OSHA? Is it applicable too or to certain product categories only? OSHA NRTL approval requirements apply to ALL electrical equipment as well as some non electrical equipment https://www.osha.gov/dts/otpca/nrtl/prodcatg.html Most local AHJs, and most retailers also want NRTL approval even though legally NRTL approval may not be required. Kevin Robinson On Sun, Jul 24, 2016 at 1:18 AM, Scott Xe mailto:scott...@gmail.com>> wrote: Hi Rich, Thanks for your advice! For consumer and household products, compliance with CPSC requirements is required. What about OSHA? Is it applicable too or to certain product categories only? Scott From: Richard Nute mailto:ri...@ieee.org>> Reply-To: mailto:ri...@ieee.org>> Date: Sunday, 24 July 2016 at 4:02 AM To: Raymond Li mailto:scott...@gmail.com>>, mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG>> Subject: RE: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Within EU, most of electrical products are covered by LVD and GPSD. In US, which body, law and standards are responsible for the similar regulatory? In the USA, we have a number of entities that oversee electrical safety: AHJ, enforcing the local (state, county, or city) electrical code (certification and construction) for all local installations. OSHA (federal), which governs workplace safety by requiring electrical equipment to be NRTL. CPSC (federal), which maintains a list of substantial product hazards which must comply with a safety standard, and which orders recalls of “dangerous” products (after incidents). FDA (federal), which governs medical electrical equipment. There may be others. Rich - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <emc-p...@ieee.org<mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)<http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org<mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org>> Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org<mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher <j.bac...@ieee.org<mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>> David Heald <dhe...@gmail.com<mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>> - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)<http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org>> Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>> David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>> - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US
What is the best practice for the suppliers/importers to demonstrate the compliance with relevant requirements? NRTL certified. Rich - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US
Hi Scott: For consumer and household products, compliance with CPSC requirements is required. No. Only products considered “substantial product hazards” such as hair dryers need comply with CPSC requirements. However, any consumer product that injures someone is subject to CPSC recall order. What about OSHA? Electrical products that are used by employees are required to be NRTL certified. Best regards, Rich - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US
Scott, >>> What about OSHA? Is it applicable too or to certain product categories only? OSHA NRTL approval requirements apply to ALL electrical equipment as well as some non electrical equipment https://www.osha.gov/dts/otpca/nrtl/prodcatg.html Most local AHJs, and most retailers also want NRTL approval even though legally NRTL approval may not be required. Kevin Robinson On Sun, Jul 24, 2016 at 1:18 AM, Scott Xe wrote: > Hi Rich, > > > > Thanks for your advice! For consumer and household products, compliance > with CPSC requirements is required. What about OSHA? Is it applicable too > or to certain product categories only? > > > > Scott > > > > > > > > > > *From: *Richard Nute > *Reply-To: * > *Date: *Sunday, 24 July 2016 at 4:02 AM > *To: *Raymond Li , > *Subject: *RE: [PSES] Safety requirements in US > > > > > > Within EU, most of electrical products are covered by LVD and GPSD. In > US, which body, law and standards are responsible for the similar > regulatory? > > > > In the USA, we have a number of entities that oversee electrical safety: > > > > AHJ, enforcing the local (state, county, or city) electrical code > (certification and construction) for all local installations. > > OSHA (federal), which governs workplace safety by requiring electrical > equipment to be NRTL. > > CPSC (federal), which maintains a list of substantial product hazards > which must comply with a safety standard, and which orders recalls of > “dangerous” products (after incidents). > > FDA (federal), which governs medical electrical equipment. > > > > There may be others. > > > > > > Rich > > > > > > > - > > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to < > emc-p...@ieee.org> > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at > http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in > well-used formats), large files, etc. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org> > Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher <j.bac...@ieee.org> > David Heald <dhe...@gmail.com> > - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US
Thanks for all your responses! What is the best practice for the suppliers/importers to demonstrate the compliance with relevant requirements? Scott From: Ron Wellman Reply-To: Ron Wellman Date: Sunday, 24 July 2016 at 12:14 AM To: Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US United States laws are codified in the United States Code (USC). The Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) is the implementation of the laws in the USC. Ron From: Doug Powell [mailto:doug...@gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2016 7:38 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Actually, I think FDA, FCC, FTA, USDA, CDC, Homeland Security, etc. all report up to the CFR. Doug From: Nyffenegger, Dave Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2016 8:32 AM To: Doug Powell; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: RE: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Anything with a laser in it is also governed by FDA regs. I think the objective is to make it so confusing that no-one can figure it out completely and the lawyers will always have something to do. -Dave From: Doug Powell [mailto:doug...@gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2016 10:08 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Ultimately, everything goes up to the Code of Federal Regulations, CFR. These are the law of the land. You can find the regulations that both OSHA and CPSC follow there. In turn, each state has their own set of laws, for example in my home state are the Colorado Revised Statutes, CRS. Usually all these can be found online at no charge. All the best, Doug From: Kevin Robinson Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2016 2:47 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Reply To: Kevin Robinson Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Scott, In the US, the regulations rounds on the type of product and where it will be used. For example: If the product will be used in the workplace then Osha NRTL regs apply. If the product will be used in the home or around schools, then CPSC regs apply. If the product is a medical device then FDA regs apply Most products fall under multiple regulators as for example, a hospital is both a medical space as well as a workplace. Thankfully, most us regulations reference voluntary consensus standards so one round of testing will often satisfy all safety regulators. Kevin Robinson Get Outlook for iOS _ From: Scott Xe Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2016 1:30 AM Subject: [PSES] Safety requirements in US To: Within EU, most of electrical products are covered by LVD and GPSD. In US, which body, law and standards are responsible for the similar regulatory? - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher David Heald - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher David Heald - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to
Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US
Hi Rich, Thanks for your advice! For consumer and household products, compliance with CPSC requirements is required. What about OSHA? Is it applicable too or to certain product categories only? Scott From: Richard Nute Reply-To: Date: Sunday, 24 July 2016 at 4:02 AM To: Raymond Li , Subject: RE: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Within EU, most of electrical products are covered by LVD and GPSD. In US, which body, law and standards are responsible for the similar regulatory? In the USA, we have a number of entities that oversee electrical safety: AHJ, enforcing the local (state, county, or city) electrical code (certification and construction) for all local installations. OSHA (federal), which governs workplace safety by requiring electrical equipment to be NRTL. CPSC (federal), which maintains a list of substantial product hazards which must comply with a safety standard, and which orders recalls of “dangerous” products (after incidents). FDA (federal), which governs medical electrical equipment. There may be others. Rich - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US
Within EU, most of electrical products are covered by LVD and GPSD. In US, which body, law and standards are responsible for the similar regulatory? In the USA, we have a number of entities that oversee electrical safety: AHJ, enforcing the local (state, county, or city) electrical code (certification and construction) for all local installations. OSHA (federal), which governs workplace safety by requiring electrical equipment to be NRTL. CPSC (federal), which maintains a list of substantial product hazards which must comply with a safety standard, and which orders recalls of “dangerous” products (after incidents). FDA (federal), which governs medical electrical equipment. There may be others. Rich - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US
Anything with a laser in it is also governed by FDA regs. I think the objective is to make it so confusing that no-one can figure it out completely and the lawyers will always have something to do. -Dave From: Doug Powell [mailto:doug...@gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2016 10:08 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Ultimately, everything goes up to the Code of Federal Regulations, CFR. These are the law of the land. You can find the regulations that both OSHA and CPSC follow there. In turn, each state has their own set of laws, for example in my home state are the Colorado Revised Statutes, CRS. Usually all these can be found online at no charge. All the best, Doug From: Kevin Robinson Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2016 2:47 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Reply To: Kevin Robinson Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Scott, In the US, the regulations rounds on the type of product and where it will be used. For example: If the product will be used in the workplace then Osha NRTL regs apply. If the product will be used in the home or around schools, then CPSC regs apply. If the product is a medical device then FDA regs apply Most products fall under multiple regulators as for example, a hospital is both a medical space as well as a workplace. Thankfully, most us regulations reference voluntary consensus standards so one round of testing will often satisfy all safety regulators. Kevin Robinson Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef> _ From: Scott Xe mailto:scott...@gmail.com>> Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2016 1:30 AM Subject: [PSES] Safety requirements in US To: mailto:emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org>> Within EU, most of electrical products are covered by LVD and GPSD. In US, which body, law and standards are responsible for the similar regulatory? - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)<http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org>> Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>> David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>> - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)<http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org>> Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>> David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>> - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org>> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)<http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org>> Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org>> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org>> David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com>> - --
Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US
United States laws are codified in the United States Code (USC). The Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) is the implementation of the laws in the USC. Ron From: Doug Powell [mailto:doug...@gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2016 7:38 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Actually, I think FDA, FCC, FTA, USDA, CDC, Homeland Security, etc. all report up to the CFR. Doug From: Nyffenegger, Dave Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2016 8:32 AM To: Doug Powell; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> Subject: RE: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Anything with a laser in it is also governed by FDA regs. I think the objective is to make it so confusing that no-one can figure it out completely and the lawyers will always have something to do. -Dave From: Doug Powell [mailto:doug...@gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2016 10:08 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Ultimately, everything goes up to the Code of Federal Regulations, CFR. These are the law of the land. You can find the regulations that both OSHA and CPSC follow there. In turn, each state has their own set of laws, for example in my home state are the Colorado Revised Statutes, CRS. Usually all these can be found online at no charge. All the best, Doug From: Kevin Robinson Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2016 2:47 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG <mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG> Reply To: Kevin Robinson Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Scott, In the US, the regulations rounds on the type of product and where it will be used. For example: If the product will be used in the workplace then Osha NRTL regs apply. If the product will be used in the home or around schools, then CPSC regs apply. If the product is a medical device then FDA regs apply Most products fall under multiple regulators as for example, a hospital is both a medical space as well as a workplace. Thankfully, most us regulations reference voluntary consensus standards so one round of testing will often satisfy all safety regulators. Kevin Robinson Get Outlook for iOS <https://aka.ms/o0ukef> _ From: Scott Xe mailto:scott...@gmail.com> > Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2016 1:30 AM Subject: [PSES] Safety requirements in US To: mailto:emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org> > Within EU, most of electrical products are covered by LVD and GPSD. In US, which body, law and standards are responsible for the similar regulatory? - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org> > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org> > Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org> > For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org> > David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com> > - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org> > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) <http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org> > Mike Cantwell mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org> > For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org> > David Heald mailto:dhe...@gmail.com> > - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org&
Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US
Actually, I think FDA, FCC, FTA, USDA, CDC, Homeland Security, etc. all report up to the CFR.DougFrom: Nyffenegger, DaveSent: Saturday, July 23, 2016 8:32 AMTo: Doug Powell; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGSubject: RE: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Anything with a laser in it is also governed by FDA regs. I think the objective is to make it so confusing that no-one can figure it out completely and the lawyers will always have something to do. -Dave From: Doug Powell [mailto:doug...@gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2016 10:08 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Ultimately, everything goes up to the Code of Federal Regulations, CFR. These are the law of the land. You can find the regulations that both OSHA and CPSC follow there. In turn, each state has their own set of laws, for example in my home state are the Colorado Revised Statutes, CRS. Usually all these can be found online at no charge. All the best, Doug From: Kevin Robinson Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2016 2:47 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Reply To: Kevin Robinson Subject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Scott, In the US, the regulations rounds on the type of product and where it will be used. For example: If the product will be used in the workplace then Osha NRTL regs apply. If the product will be used in the home or around schools, then CPSC regs apply. If the product is a medical device then FDA regs apply Most products fall under multiple regulators as for example, a hospital is both a medical space as well as a workplace. Thankfully, most us regulations reference voluntary consensus standards so one round of testing will often satisfy all safety regulators. Kevin Robinson Get Outlook for iOS _ From: Scott Xe <scott...@gmail.com> Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2016 1:30 AM Subject: [PSES] Safety requirements in US To: <emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org> Within EU, most of electrical products are covered by LVD and GPSD. In US, which body, law and standards are responsible for the similar regulatory? - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <emc-p...@ieee.org> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org> Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher <j.bac...@ieee.org> David Heald <dhe...@gmail.com> - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <emc-p...@ieee.org> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org> Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher <j.bac...@ieee.org> David Heald <dhe...@gmail.com> - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <emc-p...@ieee.org> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: htt
Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US
Ultimately, everything goes up to the Code of Federal Regulations, CFR. These are the law of the land. You can find the regulations that both OSHA and CPSC follow there. In turn, each state has their own set of laws, for example in my home state are the Colorado Revised Statutes, CRS.Usually all these can be found online at no charge. All the best, DougFrom: Kevin RobinsonSent: Saturday, July 23, 2016 2:47 AMTo: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORGReply To: Kevin RobinsonSubject: Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US Scott, In the US, the regulations rounds on the type of product and where it will be used. For example:If the product will be used in the workplace then Osha NRTL regs apply. If the product will be used in the home or around schools, then CPSC regs apply. If the product is a medical device then FDA regs applyMost products fall under multiple regulators as for example, a hospital is both a medical space as well as a workplace. Thankfully, most us regulations reference voluntary consensus standards so one round of testing will often satisfy all safety regulators. Kevin RobinsonGet Outlook for iOS _From: Scott Xe <scott...@gmail.com>Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2016 1:30 AMSubject: [PSES] Safety requirements in USTo: <emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org>Within EU, most of electrical products are covered by LVD and GPSD. In US, which body, law and standards are responsible for the similar regulatory?-This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <emc-p...@ieee.org>All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.htmlAttachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.htmlFor help, send mail to the list administrators:Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org>Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org>For policy questions, send mail to:Jim Bacher <j.bac...@ieee.org>David Heald <dhe...@gmail.com> - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <emc-p...@ieee.org> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org> Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher <j.bac...@ieee.org> David Heald <dhe...@gmail.com> - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <emc-p...@ieee.org> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org> Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher <j.bac...@ieee.org> David Heald <dhe...@gmail.com>
Re: [PSES] Safety requirements in US
Scott, In the US, the regulations rounds on the type of product and where it will be used. For example: If the product will be used in the workplace then Osha NRTL regs apply. If the product will be used in the home or around schools, then CPSC regs apply. If the product is a medical device then FDA regs apply Most products fall under multiple regulators as for example, a hospital is both a medical space as well as a workplace. Thankfully, most us regulations reference voluntary consensus standards so one round of testing will often satisfy all safety regulators. Kevin Robinson Get Outlook for iOS _ From: Scott Xe Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2016 1:30 AM Subject: [PSES] Safety requirements in US To: Within EU, most of electrical products are covered by LVD and GPSD. In US, which body, law and standards are responsible for the similar regulatory?- This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher David Heald - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
[PSES] Safety requirements in US
Within EU, most of electrical products are covered by LVD and GPSD. In US, which body, law and standards are responsible for the similar regulatory? - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
