RE: ESD Gun Verification between calibrations
A 100 MHz oscilloscope and a Pelligrini target would be good for viewing all
but the leading edge. With this one can look for runt pulses, correct current,
correct decay time, and missing pulses. The rise time is 3 ns and the cheapest
100 MHz TEK oscilloscope is around $1300. A 500 MHz oscilloscope is needed to
do it right.
Dave
From: Mike Hopkins [mailto:michael.hopk...@thermo.com]
Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 10:22 AM
To: 'Chris Maxwell'; Brian Epstein; drcuthbert; ian.gor...@bocedwards.com;
kevinharr...@dsc.com
Cc: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: RE: ESD Gun Verification between calibrations
Major waste of time -- been through this a number of times with people
believing it would be a good idea to convert from time domain to frequency
domain when evaluating ESD simulators -- WG14 of the ESD Association did quite
a bit of work in this area and in the end, stick with the time domain for
looking at the event...
Best Regards,
Michael Hopkins
Control Technology Division
Compliance Test Solutions
Thermo Electron Corporation
One Lowell Research Center
Lowell, MA 01852
Tel: +1 978 275 0800 ext. 334
Mobile: +1 603 765 3736
michael.hopk...@thermo.com
One Thermo, committed to integrity, intensity, innovation & involvement
-Original Message-
From: Chris Maxwell [ mailto:chris.maxw...@nettest.com]
Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 9:16 AM
To: Brian Epstein; drcuthb...@micron.com; ian.gor...@bocedwards.com;
kevinharr...@dsc.com
Cc: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: RE: ESD Gun Verification between calibrations
I've often wondered...
Most people who have an ESD gun have a spectrum analyzer.
Most ESD guns have a multiple discharge setting.
What if you made a "coupling strip", such as a 12 inch long x 1 inch
wide piece of copper tape mounted on a board; then used two 970 Ohm
resistors to bond the strip to the ground reference plane (probably
would want to make this connection with some kind of clip so you could
connect/disconnect easily); then set up a jig which would hold a coax
near field probe (the homemade kind with the end cut and the center
conductor protruding a little bit) a fixed distance from this coupling
strip.
It seems that you could take your freshly calibrated ESD gun and
discharge to the strip with your spectrum analyzer set on peak hold and
a span covering 100 to 1000Mhz. You could make a number of discharges,
say 10 or 20.
Then you would have a "spectral signature" of your freshly calibrated
ESD gun.
Couldn't you then repeat the process daily and compare the signature to
the original?
Sorry that I haven't done this myself. I just thought of this idea this
morning.
Can any of the group's gurus see a hole in this idea?
Chris Maxwell
Design Engineer
Nettest
-Original Message-
From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
[ mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org] On Behalf Of Brian Epstein
Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 4:16 PM
To: drcuthb...@micron.com; ian.gor...@bocedwards.com;
kevinharr...@dsc.com
Cc: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: RE: ESD Gun Verification between calibrations
That actually works. Just zap the inside of your arm and measure the
welt.
-Original Message-
From: drcuthb...@micron.com [ mailto:drcuthb...@micron.com]
Sent: Thu 4/22/2004 11:18 AM
To: ian.gor...@bocedwards.com; kevinharr...@dsc.com
Cc: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: RE: ESD Gun Verification between calibrations
I often test 9 volt batteries with my tongue. A similar
technique can be
used to test the ESD gun. Just discharge it to your arm and gage
the
performance by how it feels. Just kidding, sort of.
Dave Cuthbert
-Original Message-
From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
[ mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org] On Behalf Of
Gordon,Ian
Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 1:46 AM
To: Kevin Harris
Cc: EMC-PSTC (emc-p...@ieee.org)
Subject: RE: ESD Gun Verification between calibrations
Kevin
You are only verifying that the equipment is working so there is
no need
to
check absolute levels or waveforms etc, that is the function of
the
calibration.
Our EMC lab has been assessed to ISO 17025 by TUV International
and they
are
satisfied with the following procedure which is extracted from
our EMC
lab
Quality Manual.
In our in-house EMC reports (which TUV are prepared to endorse)
we
record
the latest date of calibration. Following the next calibration
we assess
whether there is a requirement to repeat any work based on the
outcome
of
that calibration i.e. if the device is outside the manufacturers
specification w
RE: ESD Gun Verification between calibrations
Major waste of time -- been through this a number of times with people believing it would be a good idea to convert from time domain to frequency domain when evaluating ESD simulators -- WG14 of the ESD Association did quite a bit of work in this area and in the end, stick with the time domain for looking at the event... Best Regards, Michael Hopkins Control Technology Division Compliance Test Solutions Thermo Electron Corporation One Lowell Research Center Lowell, MA 01852 Tel: +1 978 275 0800 ext. 334 Mobile: +1 603 765 3736 michael.hopk...@thermo.com One Thermo, committed to integrity, intensity, innovation & involvement -Original Message- From: Chris Maxwell [ mailto:chris.maxw...@nettest.com] Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 9:16 AM To: Brian Epstein; drcuthb...@micron.com; ian.gor...@bocedwards.com; kevinharr...@dsc.com Cc: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: ESD Gun Verification between calibrations I've often wondered... Most people who have an ESD gun have a spectrum analyzer. Most ESD guns have a multiple discharge setting. What if you made a "coupling strip", such as a 12 inch long x 1 inch wide piece of copper tape mounted on a board; then used two 970 Ohm resistors to bond the strip to the ground reference plane (probably would want to make this connection with some kind of clip so you could connect/disconnect easily); then set up a jig which would hold a coax near field probe (the homemade kind with the end cut and the center conductor protruding a little bit) a fixed distance from this coupling strip. It seems that you could take your freshly calibrated ESD gun and discharge to the strip with your spectrum analyzer set on peak hold and a span covering 100 to 1000Mhz. You could make a number of discharges, say 10 or 20. Then you would have a "spectral signature" of your freshly calibrated ESD gun. Couldn't you then repeat the process daily and compare the signature to the original? Sorry that I haven't done this myself. I just thought of this idea this morning. Can any of the group's gurus see a hole in this idea? Chris Maxwell Design Engineer Nettest -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [ mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org] On Behalf Of Brian Epstein Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 4:16 PM To: drcuthb...@micron.com; ian.gor...@bocedwards.com; kevinharr...@dsc.com Cc: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: ESD Gun Verification between calibrations That actually works. Just zap the inside of your arm and measure the welt. -Original Message- From: drcuthb...@micron.com [ mailto:drcuthb...@micron.com] Sent: Thu 4/22/2004 11:18 AM To: ian.gor...@bocedwards.com; kevinharr...@dsc.com Cc: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: ESD Gun Verification between calibrations I often test 9 volt batteries with my tongue. A similar technique can be used to test the ESD gun. Just discharge it to your arm and gage the performance by how it feels. Just kidding, sort of. Dave Cuthbert -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [ mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org] On Behalf Of Gordon,Ian Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 1:46 AM To: Kevin Harris Cc: EMC-PSTC (emc-p...@ieee.org) Subject: RE: ESD Gun Verification between calibrations Kevin You are only verifying that the equipment is working so there is no need to check absolute levels or waveforms etc, that is the function of the calibration. Our EMC lab has been assessed to ISO 17025 by TUV International and they are satisfied with the following procedure which is extracted from our EMC lab Quality Manual. In our in-house EMC reports (which TUV are prepared to endorse) we record the latest date of calibration. Following the next calibration we assess whether there is a requirement to repeat any work based on the outcome of that calibration i.e. if the device is outside the manufacturers specification we repeat the work performed in the intervening period. 1. EQUIPMENT USED FOR BS EN 61000-4-2 a)Electro-static discharge gun S/N: 2494 In house equipment No. 9853-22-998 METHOD: 1. Configure item a as per section 6.5 of EMC lab instruction manual. (Details configuration as per manufacturers instructions) 2. Set the ESD gun to 8kV air discharge, single shot. 3. Attempt to discharge the gun to the insulating block (a
RE: ESD Gun Verification between calibrations
I've often wondered...
Most people who have an ESD gun have a spectrum analyzer.
Most ESD guns have a multiple discharge setting.
What if you made a "coupling strip", such as a 12 inch long x 1 inch
wide piece of copper tape mounted on a board; then used two 970 Ohm
resistors to bond the strip to the ground reference plane (probably
would want to make this connection with some kind of clip so you could
connect/disconnect easily); then set up a jig which would hold a coax
near field probe (the homemade kind with the end cut and the center
conductor protruding a little bit) a fixed distance from this coupling
strip.
It seems that you could take your freshly calibrated ESD gun and
discharge to the strip with your spectrum analyzer set on peak hold and
a span covering 100 to 1000Mhz. You could make a number of discharges,
say 10 or 20.
Then you would have a "spectral signature" of your freshly calibrated
ESD gun.
Couldn't you then repeat the process daily and compare the signature to
the original?
Sorry that I haven't done this myself. I just thought of this idea this
morning.
Can any of the group's gurus see a hole in this idea?
Chris Maxwell
Design Engineer
Nettest
From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
[mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org] On Behalf Of Brian Epstein
Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 4:16 PM
To: drcuthb...@micron.com; ian.gor...@bocedwards.com;
kevinharr...@dsc.com
Cc: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: RE: ESD Gun Verification between calibrations
That actually works. Just zap the inside of your arm and measure the
welt.
-Original Message-
From: drcuthb...@micron.com [mailto:drcuthb...@micron.com]
Sent: Thu 4/22/2004 11:18 AM
To: ian.gor...@bocedwards.com; kevinharr...@dsc.com
Cc: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: RE: ESD Gun Verification between calibrations
I often test 9 volt batteries with my tongue. A similar
technique can be
used to test the ESD gun. Just discharge it to your arm and gage
the
performance by how it feels. Just kidding, sort of.
Dave Cuthbert
-Original Message-
From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
[mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org] On Behalf Of
Gordon,Ian
Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 1:46 AM
To: Kevin Harris
Cc: EMC-PSTC (emc-p...@ieee.org)
Subject: RE: ESD Gun Verification between calibrations
Kevin
You are only verifying that the equipment is working so there is
no need
to
check absolute levels or waveforms etc, that is the function of
the
calibration.
Our EMC lab has been assessed to ISO 17025 by TUV International
and they
are
satisfied with the following procedure which is extracted from
our EMC
lab
Quality Manual.
In our in-house EMC reports (which TUV are prepared to endorse)
we
record
the latest date of calibration. Following the next calibration
we assess
whether there is a requirement to repeat any work based on the
outcome
of
that calibration i.e. if the device is outside the manufacturers
specification we repeat the work performed in the intervening
period.
1. EQUIPMENT USED FOR BS EN 61000-4-2
a)Electro-static discharge gun
S/N: 2494
In house equipment No. 9853-22-998
METHOD:
1. Configure item a as per section 6.5 of EMC lab
instruction
manual.
(Details configuration as per
manufacturers
instructions)
2. Set the ESD gun to 8kV air discharge, single shot.
3. Attempt to discharge the gun to the insulating block (a
block of
wood 100 x 150 x 700mm) on the earth plane.
4. Check that a discharge did not occur by observing no
audible
signal
from the gun and the display of the gun indicates 0.0kV.
5. Attempt to discharge the gun to the earth plane.
6. Check that a discharge did occur by observing an audible
signal
from
the gun and the display of the gun indicates over 6kV.
7. Update the Equipment checklist spreadsheet to show that
these
pieces
of equipment are functioning correctly.
Ian Gordon
-Original Message-
From: Ken Javor [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com]
Sent: 21 April 2004 20:51
To: Kevin Harris; EMC-PSTC (emc-p...@ieee.org)
Subject: Re: ESD Gun Verification between calibrations
Never done this before, so this is shooting from the hip. If
you have a
receiver, as opposed to an analyzer, you could, using sufficient
attenuation, drive the in
RE: ESD Gun Verification between calibrations
You guys have to be all kinds of fun at a party.
Come on over, let me buy you a beer. :)
Mat Aschenberg
Agency Engineer II
EchoStar Technologies Corporation
Tel: 303-706-5064
Fax: 303-723-3901
Cell: 303-906-6224
Email: mat.aschenb...@echostar.com
Email Alternate: mat.aschenb...@ieee.org
From: Brian Epstein [mailto:bepst...@veeco.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 2:16 PM
To: drcuthb...@micron.com; ian.gor...@bocedwards.com; kevinharr...@dsc.com
Cc: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: RE: ESD Gun Verification between calibrations
That actually works. Just zap the inside of your arm and measure the welt.
-Original Message-
From: drcuthb...@micron.com [mailto:drcuthb...@micron.com]
Sent: Thu 4/22/2004 11:18 AM
To: ian.gor...@bocedwards.com; kevinharr...@dsc.com
Cc: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: RE: ESD Gun Verification between calibrations
I often test 9 volt batteries with my tongue. A similar technique
can be
used to test the ESD gun. Just discharge it to your arm and gage the
performance by how it feels. Just kidding, sort of.
Dave Cuthbert
-Original Message-
From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
[mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org] On Behalf Of Gordon,Ian
Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 1:46 AM
To: Kevin Harris
Cc: EMC-PSTC (emc-p...@ieee.org)
Subject: RE: ESD Gun Verification between calibrations
Kevin
You are only verifying that the equipment is working so there is no
need
to
check absolute levels or waveforms etc, that is the function of the
calibration.
Our EMC lab has been assessed to ISO 17025 by TUV International and
they
are
satisfied with the following procedure which is extracted from our
EMC
lab
Quality Manual.
In our in-house EMC reports (which TUV are prepared to endorse) we
record
the latest date of calibration. Following the next calibration we
assess
whether there is a requirement to repeat any work based on the
outcome
of
that calibration i.e. if the device is outside the manufacturers
specification we repeat the work performed in the intervening
period.
1. EQUIPMENT USED FOR BS EN 61000-4-2
a)Electro-static discharge gun
S/N: 2494
In house equipment No. 9853-22-998
METHOD:
1. Configure item a as per section 6.5 of EMC lab instruction
manual.
(Details configuration as per
manufacturers
instructions)
2. Set the ESD gun to 8kV air discharge, single shot.
3. Attempt to discharge the gun to the insulating block (a
block of
wood 100 x 150 x 700mm) on the earth plane.
4. Check that a discharge did not occur by observing no audible
signal
from the gun and the display of the gun indicates 0.0kV.
5. Attempt to discharge the gun to the earth plane.
6. Check that a discharge did occur by observing an audible
signal
from
the gun and the display of the gun indicates over 6kV.
7. Update the Equipment checklist spreadsheet to show that
these
pieces
of equipment are functioning correctly.
Ian Gordon
-Original Message-
From: Ken Javor [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com]
Sent: 21 April 2004 20:51
To: Kevin Harris; EMC-PSTC (emc-p...@ieee.org)
Subject: Re: ESD Gun Verification between calibrations
Never done this before, so this is shooting from the hip. If you
have a
receiver, as opposed to an analyzer, you could, using sufficient
attenuation, drive the input directly or using some transducer to
measure
the spectral signature from dc to daylight right after calibration,
and
run
checks against that for intermediate checks. If you have an
analyzer
with
even rudimentary preselection, you can do the same. Obviously you
would
have to use the max hold function and run multiple shots. I don't
know
how
fast those things recharge - if it takes a long time that would make
this
technique impractical.
From: Kevin Harris
Reply-To: Kevin Harris
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 11:51:04 -0400
To: "EMC-PSTC (emc-p...@ieee.org)"
Subject: ESD Gun Verification between calibrations
Dear Colleagues,
We are in the process of moving some of the ESD testing we currently
do
(as
pre-compliance to formal testing at an agency or test h
RE: ESD Gun Verification between calibrations
That actually works. Just zap the inside of your arm and measure the welt.
-Original Message-
From: drcuthb...@micron.com [mailto:drcuthb...@micron.com]
Sent: Thu 4/22/2004 11:18 AM
To: ian.gor...@bocedwards.com; kevinharr...@dsc.com
Cc: emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: RE: ESD Gun Verification between calibrations
I often test 9 volt batteries with my tongue. A similar technique can be
used to test the ESD gun. Just discharge it to your arm and gage the
performance by how it feels. Just kidding, sort of.
Dave Cuthbert
-Original Message-
From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
[mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org] On Behalf Of Gordon,Ian
Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 1:46 AM
To: Kevin Harris
Cc: EMC-PSTC (emc-p...@ieee.org)
Subject: RE: ESD Gun Verification between calibrations
Kevin
You are only verifying that the equipment is working so there is no need
to
check absolute levels or waveforms etc, that is the function of the
calibration.
Our EMC lab has been assessed to ISO 17025 by TUV International and they
are
satisfied with the following procedure which is extracted from our EMC
lab
Quality Manual.
In our in-house EMC reports (which TUV are prepared to endorse) we
record
the latest date of calibration. Following the next calibration we assess
whether there is a requirement to repeat any work based on the outcome
of
that calibration i.e. if the device is outside the manufacturers
specification we repeat the work performed in the intervening period.
1. EQUIPMENT USED FOR BS EN 61000-4-2
a)Electro-static discharge gun
S/N: 2494
In house equipment No. 9853-22-998
METHOD:
1. Configure item a as per section 6.5 of EMC lab instruction
manual.
(Details configuration as per
manufacturers
instructions)
2. Set the ESD gun to 8kV air discharge, single shot.
3. Attempt to discharge the gun to the insulating block (a block of
wood 100 x 150 x 700mm) on the earth plane.
4. Check that a discharge did not occur by observing no audible
signal
from the gun and the display of the gun indicates 0.0kV.
5. Attempt to discharge the gun to the earth plane.
6. Check that a discharge did occur by observing an audible signal
from
the gun and the display of the gun indicates over 6kV.
7. Update the Equipment checklist spreadsheet to show that these
pieces
of equipment are functioning correctly.
Ian Gordon
-Original Message-
From: Ken Javor [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com]
Sent: 21 April 2004 20:51
To: Kevin Harris; EMC-PSTC (emc-p...@ieee.org)
Subject: Re: ESD Gun Verification between calibrations
Never done this before, so this is shooting from the hip. If you have a
receiver, as opposed to an analyzer, you could, using sufficient
attenuation, drive the input directly or using some transducer to
measure
the spectral signature from dc to daylight right after calibration, and
run
checks against that for intermediate checks. If you have an analyzer
with
even rudimentary preselection, you can do the same. Obviously you would
have to use the max hold function and run multiple shots. I don't know
how
fast those things recharge - if it takes a long time that would make
this
technique impractical.
From: Kevin Harris
Reply-To: Kevin Harris
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 11:51:04 -0400
To: "EMC-PSTC (emc-p...@ieee.org)"
Subject: ESD Gun Verification between calibrations
Dear Colleagues,
We are in the process of moving some of the ESD testing we currently do
(as
pre-compliance to formal testing at an agency or test house) to formal
testing under a laboratory accreditation program. In that regard, the
issue
of verification of the ESD gun's performance has come up between
calibration
cycles. Short of spending a lot of coin on a scope with a very fast one
shot
capture and running the formal calibration test as a method of periodic
verification, does anyone have some suggestions for alternative methods
that
aren't so expensive but would still satisfy
RE: ESD Gun Verification between calibrations
I often test 9 volt batteries with my tongue. A similar technique can be used to test the ESD gun. Just discharge it to your arm and gage the performance by how it feels. Just kidding, sort of. Dave Cuthbert From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org] On Behalf Of Gordon,Ian Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 1:46 AM To: Kevin Harris Cc: EMC-PSTC (emc-p...@ieee.org) Subject: RE: ESD Gun Verification between calibrations Kevin You are only verifying that the equipment is working so there is no need to check absolute levels or waveforms etc, that is the function of the calibration. Our EMC lab has been assessed to ISO 17025 by TUV International and they are satisfied with the following procedure which is extracted from our EMC lab Quality Manual. In our in-house EMC reports (which TUV are prepared to endorse) we record the latest date of calibration. Following the next calibration we assess whether there is a requirement to repeat any work based on the outcome of that calibration i.e. if the device is outside the manufacturers specification we repeat the work performed in the intervening period. 1. EQUIPMENT USED FOR BS EN 61000-4-2 a)Electro-static discharge gun S/N: 2494 In house equipment No. 9853-22-998 METHOD: 1. Configure item a as per section 6.5 of EMC lab instruction manual. (Details configuration as per manufacturers instructions) 2. Set the ESD gun to 8kV air discharge, single shot. 3. Attempt to discharge the gun to the insulating block (a block of wood 100 x 150 x 700mm) on the earth plane. 4. Check that a discharge did not occur by observing no audible signal >from the gun and the display of the gun indicates 0.0kV. 5. Attempt to discharge the gun to the earth plane. 6. Check that a discharge did occur by observing an audible signal from the gun and the display of the gun indicates over 6kV. 7. Update the Equipment checklist spreadsheet to show that these pieces of equipment are functioning correctly. Ian Gordon From: Ken Javor [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com] Sent: 21 April 2004 20:51 To: Kevin Harris; EMC-PSTC (emc-p...@ieee.org) Subject: Re: ESD Gun Verification between calibrations Never done this before, so this is shooting from the hip. If you have a receiver, as opposed to an analyzer, you could, using sufficient attenuation, drive the input directly or using some transducer to measure the spectral signature from dc to daylight right after calibration, and run checks against that for intermediate checks. If you have an analyzer with even rudimentary preselection, you can do the same. Obviously you would have to use the max hold function and run multiple shots. I don't know how fast those things recharge - if it takes a long time that would make this technique impractical. From: Kevin Harris Reply-To: Kevin Harris List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 11:51:04 -0400 To: "EMC-PSTC (emc-p...@ieee.org)" Subject: ESD Gun Verification between calibrations Dear Colleagues, We are in the process of moving some of the ESD testing we currently do (as pre-compliance to formal testing at an agency or test house) to formal testing under a laboratory accreditation program. In that regard, the issue of verification of the ESD gun's performance has come up between calibration cycles. Short of spending a lot of coin on a scope with a very fast one shot capture and running the formal calibration test as a method of periodic verification, does anyone have some suggestions for alternative methods that aren't so expensive but would still satisfy an accreditor as being a reasonable approach. Thanks Kind Regards, Kevin Harris Manager, Approvals Group Digital Security Controls 3301 Langstaff Road Concord, Ontario CANADA L4K 4L2 Tel: +1 905 760 3000 Ext. 2378 Fax +1 905 760 3020 Email: kevinharr...@dsc.com _ This e-mail has been scanned for viruses by MCI's Internet Managed Scanning Services - powered by MessageLabs. For further information visit http://www.mci.com *** This email is confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the BOC Group plc or any of its affiliates. If you are not the intended recipient, be advised that you have received this email in error and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this email is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error please return the message to the sender by replying to it and then delete the message from your computer. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been checked by anti-virus soft
Re: ESD Gun Verification between calibrations
In a message dated 4/22/2004 11:07:57 AM Central Daylight Time, kurt.fisc...@hyperinterop.com writes: Kevin, You actually have 2 seperate issues: 1. The verification (or calibration) of the ESD simulator which must be performed per the 61000-4-2 standard (either internally or externally). 2. The quality assurance checks per 17025 of the ESD Simulator and ESD setup. This could be the same as #1 if your organization has the internal capabilities to perform the verification. Different ESD simulators have different failure modes so you may wish to consult with the ESD Simulator manufacturer or check the User's manual to determine what is appropriate. Good Luck! Kurt Fischer From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Kevin Harris Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 8:51 AM To: EMC-PSTC (emc-p...@ieee.org) Subject: ESD Gun Verification between calibrations Dear Colleagues, We are in the process of moving some of the ESD testing we currently do (as pre-compliance to formal testing at an agency or test house) to formal testing under a laboratory accreditation program. In that regard, the issue of verification of the ESD gun's performance has come up between calibration cycles. Short of spending a lot of coin on a scope with a very fast one shot capture and running the formal calibration test as a method of periodic verification, does anyone have some suggestions for alternative methods that aren't so expensive but would still satisfy an accreditor as being a reasonable approach. Thanks Kind Regards, Kevin Harris Manager, Approvals Group Digital Security Controls 3301 Langstaff Road Concord, Ontario CANADA L4K 4L2 Tel: +1 905 760 3000 Ext. 2378 Fax +1 905 760 3020 Email: kevinharr...@dsc.com Hi, Kurt indicates a big flaw in this whole thing. In the USA, Calibration = Validation They should NOT be the same. Validation should be a quick check, not a calibration. Why on earth would equipment be sent for cal in the first place, if the lab had to do it again periodically between calibrations. Dumb, but until the definition is changed, we are stuck with it. If a lab is being able to call a quick check validation by their accrediting body, this needs to be passed on to me: the one I am familiar with does not. Help me provide "objective evidence" so I can help drive consistent assessments. Cheers, Derek N. Walton Owner, L F Research EMI Design and Test Facility Poplar Grove, IL 61065
RE: ESD Gun Verification between calibrations
Kevin, You actually have 2 seperate issues: 1. The verification (or calibration) of the ESD simulator which must be performed per the 61000-4-2 standard (either internally or externally). 2. The quality assurance checks per 17025 of the ESD Simulator and ESD setup. This could be the same as #1 if your organization has the internal capabilities to perform the verification. Different ESD simulators have different failure modes so you may wish to consult with the ESD Simulator manufacturer or check the User's manual to determine what is appropriate. Good Luck! Kurt Fischer From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Kevin Harris Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 8:51 AM To: EMC-PSTC (emc-p...@ieee.org) Subject: ESD Gun Verification between calibrations Dear Colleagues, We are in the process of moving some of the ESD testing we currently do (as pre-compliance to formal testing at an agency or test house) to formal testing under a laboratory accreditation program. In that regard, the issue of verification of the ESD gun's performance has come up between calibration cycles. Short of spending a lot of coin on a scope with a very fast one shot capture and running the formal calibration test as a method of periodic verification, does anyone have some suggestions for alternative methods that aren't so expensive but would still satisfy an accreditor as being a reasonable approach. Thanks Kind Regards, Kevin Harris Manager, Approvals Group Digital Security Controls 3301 Langstaff Road Concord, Ontario CANADA L4K 4L2 Tel: +1 905 760 3000 Ext. 2378 Fax +1 905 760 3020 Email: kevinharr...@dsc.com
Re: ESD Gun Verification between calibrations
Kevin: There is a presentation regarding ESD on the RAFT website, it may be of some help as it does talk about calibration. It is titled "ESD Today" www.raft-global.org Regards: Kevin Keegan Senior Associate KES & Associates 1 Stonecroft Terrace Kanata, Ontario Canada K2K 2V1 Tel: 613-592-0820 Email: kkee...@kesandassociates.com Web: http://www.kesandassociates.com Regulatory Approval Forum Chairperson www.raft-global.org IMPORTANT NOTICE: This email is intended only for the individual or entity to which it is specifically addressed and should not be read by, or delivered to, any other person. Such material may contain privileged or confidential information, the disclosure or other use of which by other than the intended recipient may result in the breach of certain laws or the infringement of rights of third parties. If you have received this email in error, please delete it immediately and notify the sender. I thank you in advance for your co- operation and assistance. This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: ESD Gun Verification between calibrations
Kevin You are only verifying that the equipment is working so there is no need to check absolute levels or waveforms etc, that is the function of the calibration. Our EMC lab has been assessed to ISO 17025 by TUV International and they are satisfied with the following procedure which is extracted from our EMC lab Quality Manual. In our in-house EMC reports (which TUV are prepared to endorse) we record the latest date of calibration. Following the next calibration we assess whether there is a requirement to repeat any work based on the outcome of that calibration i.e. if the device is outside the manufacturers specification we repeat the work performed in the intervening period. 1. EQUIPMENT USED FOR BS EN 61000-4-2 a)Electro-static discharge gun S/N: 2494 In house equipment No. 9853-22-998 METHOD: 1. Configure item a as per section 6.5 of EMC lab instruction manual. (Details configuration as per manufacturers instructions) 2. Set the ESD gun to 8kV air discharge, single shot. 3. Attempt to discharge the gun to the insulating block (a block of wood 100 x 150 x 700mm) on the earth plane. 4. Check that a discharge did not occur by observing no audible signal >from the gun and the display of the gun indicates 0.0kV. 5. Attempt to discharge the gun to the earth plane. 6. Check that a discharge did occur by observing an audible signal from the gun and the display of the gun indicates over 6kV. 7. Update the Equipment checklist spreadsheet to show that these pieces of equipment are functioning correctly. Ian Gordon From: Ken Javor [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com] Sent: 21 April 2004 20:51 To: Kevin Harris; EMC-PSTC (emc-p...@ieee.org) Subject: Re: ESD Gun Verification between calibrations Never done this before, so this is shooting from the hip. If you have a receiver, as opposed to an analyzer, you could, using sufficient attenuation, drive the input directly or using some transducer to measure the spectral signature from dc to daylight right after calibration, and run checks against that for intermediate checks. If you have an analyzer with even rudimentary preselection, you can do the same. Obviously you would have to use the max hold function and run multiple shots. I don't know how fast those things recharge - if it takes a long time that would make this technique impractical. From: Kevin Harris Reply-To: Kevin Harris List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 11:51:04 -0400 To: "EMC-PSTC (emc-p...@ieee.org)" Subject: ESD Gun Verification between calibrations Dear Colleagues, We are in the process of moving some of the ESD testing we currently do (as pre-compliance to formal testing at an agency or test house) to formal testing under a laboratory accreditation program. In that regard, the issue of verification of the ESD gun's performance has come up between calibration cycles. Short of spending a lot of coin on a scope with a very fast one shot capture and running the formal calibration test as a method of periodic verification, does anyone have some suggestions for alternative methods that aren't so expensive but would still satisfy an accreditor as being a reasonable approach. Thanks Kind Regards, Kevin Harris Manager, Approvals Group Digital Security Controls 3301 Langstaff Road Concord, Ontario CANADA L4K 4L2 Tel: +1 905 760 3000 Ext. 2378 Fax +1 905 760 3020 Email: kevinharr...@dsc.com _ This e-mail has been scanned for viruses by MCI's Internet Managed Scanning Services - powered by MessageLabs. For further information visit http://www.mci.com *** This email is confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the BOC Group plc or any of its affiliates. If you are not the intended recipient, be advised that you have received this email in error and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this email is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error please return the message to the sender by replying to it and then delete the message from your computer. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been checked by anti-virus software for the presence of computer viruses. However, the BOC Group plc or any of its affiliates accepts no responsibility for any virus or defect that might arise from opening this e-mail or attachments. This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc
ESD Gun Verification presentation available!
Greetings: The presentation downloads from the Denver Section IEEE Conference is available on our website at http://www.ieee.org/rmcemc One of the presentations is on ESD gun verification by Ken Wyatt from Agilent. Enjoy! Charles Grasso RMCEMC Chair From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Ken Javor Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 12:51 PM To: Kevin Harris; EMC-PSTC (emc-p...@ieee.org) Subject: Re: ESD Gun Verification between calibrations Never done this before, so this is shooting from the hip. If you have a receiver, as opposed to an analyzer, you could, using sufficient attenuation, drive the input directly or using some transducer to measure the spectral signature from dc to daylight right after calibration, and run checks against that for intermediate checks. If you have an analyzer with even rudimentary preselection, you can do the same. Obviously you would have to use the max hold function and run multiple shots. I don't know how fast those things recharge - if it takes a long time that would make this technique impractical. From: Kevin Harris Reply-To: Kevin Harris List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 11:51:04 -0400 To: "EMC-PSTC (emc-p...@ieee.org)" Subject: ESD Gun Verification between calibrations Dear Colleagues, We are in the process of moving some of the ESD testing we currently do (as pre-compliance to formal testing at an agency or test house) to formal testing under a laboratory accreditation program. In that regard, the issue of verification of the ESD gun's performance has come up between calibration cycles. Short of spending a lot of coin on a scope with a very fast one shot capture and running the formal calibration test as a method of periodic verification, does anyone have some suggestions for alternative methods that aren't so expensive but would still satisfy an accreditor as being a reasonable approach. Thanks Kind Regards, Kevin Harris Manager, Approvals Group Digital Security Controls 3301 Langstaff Road Concord, Ontario CANADA L4K 4L2 Tel: +1 905 760 3000 Ext. 2378 Fax +1 905 760 3020 Email: kevinharr...@dsc.com
Re: ESD Gun Verification between calibrations
Never done this before, so this is shooting from the hip. If you have a receiver, as opposed to an analyzer, you could, using sufficient attenuation, drive the input directly or using some transducer to measure the spectral signature from dc to daylight right after calibration, and run checks against that for intermediate checks. If you have an analyzer with even rudimentary preselection, you can do the same. Obviously you would have to use the max hold function and run multiple shots. I don't know how fast those things recharge - if it takes a long time that would make this technique impractical. From: Kevin Harris Reply-To: Kevin Harris List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 11:51:04 -0400 To: "EMC-PSTC (emc-p...@ieee.org)" Subject: ESD Gun Verification between calibrations Dear Colleagues, We are in the process of moving some of the ESD testing we currently do (as pre-compliance to formal testing at an agency or test house) to formal testing under a laboratory accreditation program. In that regard, the issue of verification of the ESD gun's performance has come up between calibration cycles. Short of spending a lot of coin on a scope with a very fast one shot capture and running the formal calibration test as a method of periodic verification, does anyone have some suggestions for alternative methods that aren't so expensive but would still satisfy an accreditor as being a reasonable approach. Thanks Kind Regards, Kevin Harris Manager, Approvals Group Digital Security Controls 3301 Langstaff Road Concord, Ontario CANADA L4K 4L2 Tel: +1 905 760 3000 Ext. 2378 Fax +1 905 760 3020 Email: kevinharr...@dsc.com
Re: ESD Gun Verification between calibrations
I have read this paper and it is excellent, the problem still persists that for accreditation purposes the ISO TR10605 method is the only once accepted. Rob Kado EMC Engineer VWS - Auburn Hills, USA Tel: 248-340-3828 / Fax: 248-340-3316 Internal Location 3M2 Camille Good To: Kevin Harris , "EMC-PSTC (emc-p...@ieee.org)" Sent by: owner-emc-pstc@majordomo.icc: eee.org Subject: Re: ESD Gun Verification between calibrations 04/21/2004 01:48 PM Please respond to Camille Good Varuzhan Kocharyan and Dave Tolman at Northwest EMC in Hillsboro, Oregon, developed a method that might be what you are looking for. The paper can be found at http://www.nwemc.com/1136.pdf. Varuzhan gave a talk based on this paper at our local IEEE EMC Chapter sometime in the last year or so and if I remember correctly, I think the paper was also presented at the most recent IEEE EMC Symposium, I think it was held in Toronto(???). Abstract: "The management of ESD simulators and standardized ESD test stations to assure quality test results continues to be a major concern for test houses. Early detection of malfunctioning ESD equipment is possible if a day-by-day check is performed. The standard system for verification of ESD simulators is large, expensive and not practical for an everyday check . This paper describes the express diagnostic method aimed to locate the problems with ei-ther the ESD simulator or the test station. A 100MHz?.500MHz bandwidth oscilloscope can be used to measure the quasi-electrostatic field of the horizontal coupling plane after the package of discharges has been applied. The malfunction of an ESD simulator and/or test station is discovered as a deviation from the baseline measurements, which are taken immediately after calibration. This method exposes any changes of the indicated discharge voltage or the horizontal coupling plane bleeder resistor impedance as well as changes in the discharge networks of ESD simulators. The oscillograms and the statistical analysis of data are presented in this paper, which support the claims that this method can assist in detection of potential problems of ESD equipment." Camille Good, Portland, Oregon --- Kevin Harris wrote: > Dear Colleagues, > > We are in the process of moving some of the ESD > testing we currently do (as > pre-compliance to formal testing at an agency or > test house) to formal > testing under a laboratory accreditation program. In > that regard, the issue > of verification of the ESD gun's performance has > come up between calibration > cycles. Short of spending a lot of coin on a scope > with a very fast one shot > capture and running the formal calibration test as a > method of periodic > verification, does anyone have some suggestions for > alternative methods that > aren't so expensive but would still satisfy an > accreditor as being a > reasonable approach. > > Thanks > > Kind Regards, > > Kevin Harris > Manager, Approvals Group > Digital Security Controls > 3301 Langstaff Road > Concord, Ontario > CANADA > L4K 4L2 > Tel: +1 905 760 3000 Ext. 2378 > Fax +1 905 760 3020 > Email: kevinharr...@dsc.com > > > __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25¢ http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical C
Re: ESD Gun Verification between calibrations
Varuzhan Kocharyan and Dave Tolman at Northwest EMC in Hillsboro, Oregon, developed a method that might be what you are looking for. The paper can be found at http://www.nwemc.com/1136.pdf. Varuzhan gave a talk based on this paper at our local IEEE EMC Chapter sometime in the last year or so and if I remember correctly, I think the paper was also presented at the most recent IEEE EMC Symposium, I think it was held in Toronto(???). Abstract: "The management of ESD simulators and standardized ESD test stations to assure quality test results continues to be a major concern for test houses. Early detection of malfunctioning ESD equipment is possible if a day-by-day check is performed. The standard system for verification of ESD simulators is large, expensive and not practical for an everyday check . This paper describes the express diagnostic method aimed to locate the problems with ei-ther the ESD simulator or the test station. A 100MHz….500MHz bandwidth oscilloscope can be used to measure the quasi-electrostatic field of the horizontal coupling plane after the package of discharges has been applied. The malfunction of an ESD simulator and/or test station is discovered as a deviation from the baseline measurements, which are taken immediately after calibration. This method exposes any changes of the indicated discharge voltage or the horizontal coupling plane bleeder resistor impedance as well as changes in the discharge networks of ESD simulators. The oscillograms and the statistical analysis of data are presented in this paper, which support the claims that this method can assist in detection of potential problems of ESD equipment." Camille Good, Portland, Oregon --- Kevin Harris wrote: > Dear Colleagues, > > We are in the process of moving some of the ESD > testing we currently do (as > pre-compliance to formal testing at an agency or > test house) to formal > testing under a laboratory accreditation program. In > that regard, the issue > of verification of the ESD gun's performance has > come up between calibration > cycles. Short of spending a lot of coin on a scope > with a very fast one shot > capture and running the formal calibration test as a > method of periodic > verification, does anyone have some suggestions for > alternative methods that > aren't so expensive but would still satisfy an > accreditor as being a > reasonable approach. > > Thanks > > Kind Regards, > > Kevin Harris > Manager, Approvals Group > Digital Security Controls > 3301 Langstaff Road > Concord, Ontario > CANADA > L4K 4L2 > Tel: +1 905 760 3000 Ext. 2378 > Fax +1 905 760 3020 > Email: kevinharr...@dsc.com > > > __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25¢ http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
ESD Gun Verification between calibrations
Dear Colleagues, We are in the process of moving some of the ESD testing we currently do (as pre-compliance to formal testing at an agency or test house) to formal testing under a laboratory accreditation program. In that regard, the issue of verification of the ESD gun's performance has come up between calibration cycles. Short of spending a lot of coin on a scope with a very fast one shot capture and running the formal calibration test as a method of periodic verification, does anyone have some suggestions for alternative methods that aren't so expensive but would still satisfy an accreditor as being a reasonable approach. Thanks Kind Regards, Kevin Harris Manager, Approvals Group Digital Security Controls 3301 Langstaff Road Concord, Ontario CANADA L4K 4L2 Tel: +1 905 760 3000 Ext. 2378 Fax +1 905 760 3020 Email: kevinharr...@dsc.com
Re: ESD gun verification
Most spectrum analyzers don't do very well with a "single" event. The repetitive waveform needs to be there to be operated upon. - Robert - Robert A. Macy, PEm...@california.com 408 286 3985 fx 408 297 9121 AJM International Electronics Consultants 101 E San Fernando, Suite 402 San Jose, CA 95112 On Fri, 9 May 2003 08:28:11 -0400 "Chris Maxwell" wrote: > > One question that struck me is: Why isn't a spectrum > analyzer used to verify the waveform? Most labs don't > have a 4Ghz oscilloscope; but they almost all have a > 10Ghz spectrum analyzer. It seems that the spectrum of > the waveform should be just as traceable and repeatable > as the waveform itself. > > >From my own experience, I use this method to quickly > verify our EFT generator in our own lab (although I'm > just a manufacturer, not a third party lab). We have the > EFT generator calibrated yearly; and whenever I use it, I > turn on the spectrum analyzer and read the spectrum just > to make sure that it's working. > > Chris Maxwell | Design Engineer - Optical Division > email chris.maxw...@nettest.com | dir +1 315 266 5128 | > fax +1 315 797 8024 > > NetTest | 6 Rhoads Drive, Utica, NY 13502 | USA > web www.nettest.com | tel +1 315 797 4449 | > > > This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: ESD gun verification
Dear Chris, Why not a Spectrum Analyzer? For none-traceble verification it is a very good tool. For tracable measurements there are the following problems: - The amplitude uncertainty is about +/- 1.5 dB =about 15 % - The pulse is repeated let's say 20 times a second, but the pulse is only 100 ns wide. So the requirements for the linearity of the mixer is very high. David Pommerenke From: Chris Maxwell [mailto:chris.maxw...@nettest.com] Sent: Friday, May 09, 2003 7:28 AM To: Pommerenke, David; John Woodgate; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: ESD gun verification One question that struck me is: Why isn't a spectrum analyzer used to verify the waveform? Most labs don't have a 4Ghz oscilloscope; but they almost all have a 10Ghz spectrum analyzer. It seems that the spectrum of the waveform should be just as traceable and repeatable as the waveform itself. >From my own experience, I use this method to quickly verify our EFT generator in our own lab (although I'm just a manufacturer, not a third party lab). We have the EFT generator calibrated yearly; and whenever I use it, I turn on the spectrum analyzer and read the spectrum just to make sure that it's working. Chris Maxwell | Design Engineer - Optical Division email chris.maxw...@nettest.com | dir +1 315 266 5128 | fax +1 315 797 8024 NetTest | 6 Rhoads Drive, Utica, NY 13502 | USA web www.nettest.com | tel +1 315 797 4449 | > -Original Message- > From: Pommerenke, David [SMTP:davi...@umr.edu] > Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2003 5:46 PM > To: John Woodgate; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org > Subject: RE: ESD gun verification > > > John, > > The IEC TC77b WG-9 made clarification for what was intended to be > understood as "verification" and what was intended to be a > "calibration". Different words are used now, but the new version of he > standard 77b/378/CDV tries to eliminate the misunderstanding by some > metrologists. They think that the present standard requires a traceble > calibration as a daily or weekly test, not only a yearly calibration. > > David Pommerenke > > > > > -Original Message- > From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk] > Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2003 1:25 PM > To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org > Subject: Re: ESD gun verification > > > I read in !emc-pstc that Pommerenke, David wrote (in > ) about 'ESD > gun verification' on Wed, 7 May 2003: > > >Brain, > > Spelling! > > > >I like to repeat: For "verification" you do not need calibrated > >equipment or full bandwidth. The "verification" is just a method to > >increase trust in the calibration. If you use some homemade current > >target and a 500 MHz scope, you will get a pretty good picture of the > >waveform and detect most changes in an ESD generator. > > > >A comb-generator run on an OATS is not a NSA calibration, still it > >establishes trust in the antennas, cables and the spectrum analyzer. > > Quite right and sensible, but tell that to a UK metrologist! If it's not > 200% accurate, it's not believable.(;-) > -- > Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. > http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk > Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go > to > http://www.isce.org.uk > PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! > > --- > This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety > Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. > > Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ > > To cancel your subscription, send mail to: > majord...@ieee.org > with the single line: > unsubscribe emc-pstc > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com > Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org > Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org > > Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc > > > --- > This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety > Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. > > Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ > > To cancel your subscription, send mail to: > majord...@ieee.org > with the single line:> > unsubscribe emc-pstc > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hype
RE: ESD gun verification
One question that struck me is: Why isn't a spectrum analyzer used to verify the waveform? Most labs don't have a 4Ghz oscilloscope; but they almost all have a 10Ghz spectrum analyzer. It seems that the spectrum of the waveform should be just as traceable and repeatable as the waveform itself. >From my own experience, I use this method to quickly verify our EFT generator in our own lab (although I'm just a manufacturer, not a third party lab). We have the EFT generator calibrated yearly; and whenever I use it, I turn on the spectrum analyzer and read the spectrum just to make sure that it's working. Chris Maxwell | Design Engineer - Optical Division email chris.maxw...@nettest.com | dir +1 315 266 5128 | fax +1 315 797 8024 NetTest | 6 Rhoads Drive, Utica, NY 13502 | USA web www.nettest.com | tel +1 315 797 4449 | > -Original Message- > From: Pommerenke, David [SMTP:davi...@umr.edu] > Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2003 5:46 PM > To: John Woodgate; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org > Subject: RE: ESD gun verification > > > John, > > The IEC TC77b WG-9 made clarification for what was intended to be > understood as "verification" and what was intended to be a > "calibration". Different words are used now, but the new version of he > standard 77b/378/CDV tries to eliminate the misunderstanding by some > metrologists. They think that the present standard requires a traceble > calibration as a daily or weekly test, not only a yearly calibration. > > David Pommerenke > > > > > -Original Message- > From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk] > Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2003 1:25 PM > To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org > Subject: Re: ESD gun verification > > > I read in !emc-pstc that Pommerenke, David wrote (in > ) about 'ESD > gun verification' on Wed, 7 May 2003: > > >Brain, > > Spelling! > > > >I like to repeat: For "verification" you do not need calibrated > >equipment or full bandwidth. The "verification" is just a method to > >increase trust in the calibration. If you use some homemade current > >target and a 500 MHz scope, you will get a pretty good picture of the > >waveform and detect most changes in an ESD generator. > > > >A comb-generator run on an OATS is not a NSA calibration, still it > >establishes trust in the antennas, cables and the spectrum analyzer. > > Quite right and sensible, but tell that to a UK metrologist! If it's not > 200% accurate, it's not believable.(;-) > -- > Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. > http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk > Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go > to > http://www.isce.org.uk > PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! > > --- > This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety > Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. > > Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ > > To cancel your subscription, send mail to: > majord...@ieee.org > with the single line: > unsubscribe emc-pstc > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com > Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org > Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org > > Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc > > > --- > This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety > Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. > > Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ > > To cancel your subscription, send mail to: > majord...@ieee.org > with the single line:> > unsubscribe emc-pstc > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com > Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org > Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org > > Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send
RE: ESD gun verification
John, The IEC TC77b WG-9 made clarification for what was intended to be understood as "verification" and what was intended to be a "calibration". Different words are used now, but the new version of he standard 77b/378/CDV tries to eliminate the misunderstanding by some metrologists. They think that the present standard requires a traceble calibration as a daily or weekly test, not only a yearly calibration. David Pommerenke From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk] Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2003 1:25 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: ESD gun verification I read in !emc-pstc that Pommerenke, David wrote (in ) about 'ESD gun verification' on Wed, 7 May 2003: >Brain, Spelling! > >I like to repeat: For "verification" you do not need calibrated >equipment or full bandwidth. The "verification" is just a method to >increase trust in the calibration. If you use some homemade current >target and a 500 MHz scope, you will get a pretty good picture of the >waveform and detect most changes in an ESD generator. > >A comb-generator run on an OATS is not a NSA calibration, still it >establishes trust in the antennas, cables and the spectrum analyzer. Quite right and sensible, but tell that to a UK metrologist! If it's not 200% accurate, it's not believable.(;-) -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: ESD gun verification
I read in !emc-pstc that Pommerenke, David wrote (in ) about 'ESD gun verification' on Wed, 7 May 2003: >Brain, Spelling! > >I like to repeat: For "verification" you do not need calibrated >equipment or full bandwidth. The "verification" is just a method to >increase trust in the calibration. If you use some homemade current >target and a 500 MHz scope, you will get a pretty good picture of the >waveform and detect most changes in an ESD generator. > >A comb-generator run on an OATS is not a NSA calibration, still it >establishes trust in the antennas, cables and the spectrum analyzer. Quite right and sensible, but tell that to a UK metrologist! If it's not 200% accurate, it's not believable.(;-) -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: ESD gun verification
Brain, I like to repeat: For "verification" you do not need calibrated equipment or full bandwidth. The "verification" is just a method to increase trust in the calibration. If you use some homemade current target and a 500 MHz scope, you will get a pretty good picture of the waveform and detect most changes in an ESD generator. A comb-generator run on an OATS is not a NSA calibration, still it establishes trust in the antennas, cables and the spectrum analyzer. David Pommerenke University Missouri Rolla From: brian_ku...@leco.com [mailto:brian_ku...@leco.com] Sent: Monday, May 05, 2003 1:04 PM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Re:ESD gun verification John, First I would like to say how impressed I am with Jim for building his own target. Reading through his detailed description of all he went through made me think the $2000 is well worth it. I wish I had the skill and resources to do stuff like that. Years ago we used to just air discharge our ESD gun to make sure it was working ok. We never performed a "verification" test. This we thought was covered by the annual calibration and assumed that the ESD gun was designed solid enough to not have to worry about it. It wasn't until some of these Laboratory Accreditation organizations got popular that daily "verification" of your ESD gun required the verification of the current waveform. This makes a fairly inexpensive test very expensive for most labs. In addition to the $5000-$8000 for the ESD gun, now you have to have the equipment to do "verification". For us this was a $2000 target, a faraday cage, and a $20,000 1Ghz bandwidth digital storage scope. If you are testing everyday your very expensive scope is for the most part dedicated for this purpose. You can use cheaper scopes, but it has to have a high bandwidth and storage capabilities. A huge investment no doubt if you want to do it right. BTW, don't you also have to verify your scope is working correctly? Hmmm. The other issue is with the time involved with performing the verification test. To look at all the details of the current waveform for just a few voltages both positive and negative polarity plus the time to document and keep records of it takes time many customers don't want to pay for. Somehow you have to work in the cost because time is money and someone has to pay for it. To test every voltage level and polarity can take more time than the ESD test itself. So a happy reasonable medium has to be found. In a perfect world someone would invent a little box I can discharge my ESD gun into and a little green light would come on to tell me it is operating OK. If someone could invent such a box and keep it inexpensive, I would buy one. Of course it would probably cost a fortune to get the box calibrated and how do I verify the box is working correctly? Hmmm. Brian ____________Reply Separator Subject:ESD gun verification Author: jde...@nas.com List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org Date: 5/05/03 12:02 PM John: I faced the same problem about six years ago. I needed to do "verification" in between the expensive annual "calibrations". I first explored the option of buying a Pelligrini Target. As I recall, the quotes I received were around $2000. That seemed outrageous, so I decided to build one myself. I'll bet it took me at least 3 days to make sense of those goofy mechanical drawings in 61000-4-2. If only they had included a photograph or good cross-section in the Standard! Anyway, I finally figured it out, translated the drawings into something understandable by a U.S. machine shop, and got all the brass parts fabricated locally. It took several in-process consulting sessions with the machinist, but I finally got all the brass parts done for around $300. Then, I purchased a $25 silver electroplating kit. It was like Science Fair time in my workshop! Some hours of painstaking soldering later, the target was completed. I mounted it over a specially-drilled hole in the brass wall panel of our anechoic chamber (you need a Faraday Cage of some sort, and this seemed the easiest). I did a quick check using our Tektronix 1 GHz analog oscilloscope ... and the risetimes and overall waveforms measured within spec! Then, I sent the target to Haefely-Trench for a "calibration" (against their standard Pelligrini target). The results were very, very close. Having performed many verifications at this point, my advice (if you want fairly accurate and repeatable results): 1.Make (or buy) something resembling the 61000-4-2 target. 2.Use a Faraday Cage. 3.Be aware how important the POSITION of the ESD Gun Grounding Strap is to these measurements ... especially to risetime measurements. I always take a photograp
Re: ESD Gun "verification"
I can probably shed some light into this subject as I am the original
designer of the "Pelligrini" target.In 1978/1979 I designed the coaxial
target for waveform verification as our client, Dave Reynolds of Digital
Equipment Corp., insisted on certain waveform adherence from our company
(Experimental Physics Corp.) The original target used a BNC connector and it
was designed to have better frequency response than the one DEC was using
consisting of two parallel PC boards with the resistors between them
(nick-named the "ski-sled"). DEC was working with the IEC committee on 801-2
which got ahold of the target provided to DEC. Even Mr. Pelligrini does not
know why it was named after him! The target design transfered to
Electro-Metrics when Experimental Physics solds its ESD product line to
Electro-Metrics which conitnued to market the target for a few more years.
The basic design evolved into the "N" connector and SMA connector variants.
University of Berlin along with Dr. David Pommerenke extended the design
with surface mount resistors to beyong the original design's 1 GHz limit.
The new generation targets perform above 4 Ghz with special versions
operating at near 10 GHz.
Many other target designs have been made such as the tapered line target by
Jon Barth, the NiCr film target by the late Hugh Hyatt (my former partner at
Experimental Physics), the Transmission line target by Hugh Calvin etc.
Hans Mellberg
Engineering Manager
BACL
230 Commercial Street
Sunnyvale CA 94085 USA
408-732-9162 x38
408-732-9164 fax
- Original Message -
From: "Jim Ericson"
To: "emcpost"
Cc: "drcuthbert"
Sent: Saturday, May 03, 2003 4:09 PM
Subject: Re: ESD Gun "verification"
>
> Dave:
>
> Yes. The current-sensing transducer that I built ("Pelligrini Target") is
> per the Annex B drawings in EN 61000-4-2:1995 + A1:1998 +A2:2001. It has
> five paralleled 240 Ohm resistors arranged radially around the
oscilloscope
> side to give 48 Ohms. On the ESD Gun side are twenty-five radially spaced
> 50 Ohm resistors to give 2 Ohms. Transconductance is 1 Amp/1 Volt into 50
> Ohms.
>
> The present Standard requires a minimum 1 GHz bandwidth oscilloscope.
>
> I use a Pasternak Model PE7002-30 (DC to 2 GHz) 1 Watt Attenuator between
> the Pelligrini Target and the scope (voltage ratio of 32). The
oscilloscope
> is a Tektronix 7104 with 7B10 time base, and a 7A26 dual-trace amplifier.
>
> I'll email a couple of photos to you (offline), and copy Mr. Pommerenke
and
> Mr. Kinney.
>
> Regards,
> Jim Ericson
> Acme Testing Company
> j...@acmetesting.com
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "drcuthbert"
> To: "'Jim Ericson'"
> Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 8:07 AM
> Subject: RE: ESD Gun "verification"
>
>
> > Jim,
> >
> > I simulated this. I am assuming the circuit is a 2 ohm resistor to GND.
If
> so, the series inductance must be <0.1 nH for the 2 ohm resistor. Does
this
> sound right? I can do this with 25 paralleled 49.9 ohm resistors arranged
> radially around the input (discharge) point.
> >
> >Dave Cuthbert
> >Micron Technology
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Jim Ericson [mailto:jde...@nas.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 11:50 PM
> > To: emcpost
> > Subject: ESD Gun "verification"
> >
> >
> >
> > John:
> >
> > I faced the same problem about six years ago. I needed to do
> "verification"
> > in between the expensive annual "calibrations". I first explored the
> option
> > of buying a Pelligrini Target. As I recall, the quotes I received were
> > around $2000. That seemed outrageous, so I decided to build one myself.
> > I'll bet it took me at least 3 days to make sense of those goofy
> mechanical
> > drawings in 61000-4-2. If only they had included a photograph or good
> > cross-section in the Standard!
> >
> > Anyway, I finally figured it out, translated the drawings into something
> > understandable by a U.S. machine shop, and got all the brass parts
> > fabricated locally. It took several in-process consulting sessions with
> the
> > machinist, but I finally got all the brass parts done for around $300.
> > Then, I purchased a $25 silver electroplating kit. It was like Science
> Fair
> > time in my workshop! Some hours of painstaking soldering later, the
> target
> > was completed. I mounted it over a specially-drilled hole in the brass
> wall
> > panel of our anechoic chamber (you need a Faraday Cage of some sort, and
> > this seemed the easiest). I did a quick check using our Tektronix 1
ESD gun verification
John: I faced the same problem about six years ago. I needed to do "verification" in between the expensive annual "calibrations". I first explored the option of buying a Pelligrini Target. As I recall, the quotes I received were around $2000. That seemed outrageous, so I decided to build one myself. I'll bet it took me at least 3 days to make sense of those goofy mechanical drawings in 61000-4-2. If only they had included a photograph or good cross-section in the Standard! Anyway, I finally figured it out, translated the drawings into something understandable by a U.S. machine shop, and got all the brass parts fabricated locally. It took several in-process consulting sessions with the machinist, but I finally got all the brass parts done for around $300. Then, I purchased a $25 silver electroplating kit. It was like Science Fair time in my workshop! Some hours of painstaking soldering later, the target was completed. I mounted it over a specially-drilled hole in the brass wall panel of our anechoic chamber (you need a Faraday Cage of some sort, and this seemed the easiest). I did a quick check using our Tektronix 1 GHz analog oscilloscope ... and the risetimes and overall waveforms measured within spec! Then, I sent the target to Haefely-Trench for a "calibration" (against their standard Pelligrini target). The results were very, very close. Having performed many verifications at this point, my advice (if you want fairly accurate and repeatable results): 1.Make (or buy) something resembling the 61000-4-2 target. 2.Use a Faraday Cage. 3.Be aware how important the POSITION of the ESD Gun Grounding Strap is to these measurements ... especially to risetime measurements. I always take a photograph of the setup, including the "shape" of the Grounding Strap and where it is attached. If you don't do this, you'll get pretty wild variability between verifications. 4.Even a 500 MHz oscilloscope would probably be OK for "verification". Just make certain that all setup parameters (including Ground Strap placement) are EXACTLY the same each time. That way, if the GUN happens to change, you'll at least know what to do next. Give me a call if you'd like a photo. Good luck! Jim Ericson Quality System Manager/Sr. EMC Engineer Acme Testing Company Acme, WA. 888-226-3837 j...@acmetesting.com - Original Message - From: "John Harrington" To: Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 11:45 AM Subject: ESD gun verification > > Hello All > > Does any one have a quick and dirty (and hopefully cheap) way to verify the > performance of an ESD gun. > > Please, no one suggest building the current sensing system described in the > back of IEC 61000-4-2. I don't understand the drawings let alone have the > workshop or materials to consider it. Although, I may pay someone to build > it for me... > > I am desperate enough to consider buying something off the shelf (if I could > find said shelf). > > All help appreciated > > John Harrington > EMC Technical Manager > F-Squared Laboratories > > --- > This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety > Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. > > Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ > > To cancel your subscription, send mail to: > majord...@ieee.org > with the single line: > unsubscribe emc-pstc > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com > Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org > Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org > > Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc > This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: ESD gun verification
I read in !emc-pstc that Jim Ericson wrote (in <004001c31052$499e9c40$83663fce@pavilion>) about 'ESD gun verification' on Thu, 1 May 2003: >Be aware how important the POSITION of the ESD Gun Grounding Strap is >to these measurements ... especially to risetime measurements. I always >take a photograph of the setup, including the "shape" of the Grounding Strap >and where it is attached. If you don't do this, you'll get pretty wild >variability between verifications. I strongly endorse that. It's not a 'ground strap', it's an open-wire transmission line in most cases. There is one product that has a more technically-defensible arrangement. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: ESD gun verification
I read in !emc-pstc that John Harrington wrote (in <5777c7d14a69d411be4200a0cc746898493...@exchange.f2labs.com>) about 'ESD gun verification' on Thu, 1 May 2003: >Does any one have a quick and dirty (and hopefully cheap) way to verify the >performance of an ESD gun. It's a major bugbear with that standard (and any ESD standard, I think). Any Q&D method will only give you very dirty answers. You might just as well not bother. No-one, AFAIK, really knows how the discharge current gets back to the gun. Even for an 'electrostatic' discharge, there must be a closed current path. Now think about those nanosecond pulses travelling along a metre or more of return cable. Inductance? What's that? (;-) > >Please, no one suggest building the current sensing system described in the >back of IEC 61000-4-2. I don't understand the drawings let alone have the >workshop or materials to consider it. Although, I may pay someone to build >it for me... Don't. The amount of black magic you need even to make the official method work is immense, and you certainly can't qualify the current- sensing system without a lot of VERY costly test equipment. > >I am desperate enough to consider buying something off the shelf (if I could >find said shelf). I'm not sure that you can even do that at a sensible cost, but I understand that there are a few specialist companies who will verify your gun for you. I don't have any names or URLs, though. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
ESD Gun "verification"
John: I faced the same problem about six years ago. I needed to do "verification" in between the expensive annual "calibrations". I first explored the option of buying a Pelligrini Target. As I recall, the quotes I received were around $2000. That seemed outrageous, so I decided to build one myself. I'll bet it took me at least 3 days to make sense of those goofy mechanical drawings in 61000-4-2. If only they had included a photograph or good cross-section in the Standard! Anyway, I finally figured it out, translated the drawings into something understandable by a U.S. machine shop, and got all the brass parts fabricated locally. It took several in-process consulting sessions with the machinist, but I finally got all the brass parts done for around $300. Then, I purchased a $25 silver electroplating kit. It was like Science Fair time in my workshop! Some hours of painstaking soldering later, the target was completed. I mounted it over a specially-drilled hole in the brass wall panel of our anechoic chamber (you need a Faraday Cage of some sort, and this seemed the easiest). I did a quick check using our Tektronix 1 GHz analog oscilloscope ... and the risetimes and overall waveforms measured within spec! Then, I sent the target to Haefely-Trench for a "calibration" (against their standard Pelligrini target). The results were very, very close. Having performed many verifications at this point, my advice (if you want fairly accurate and repeatable results): 1.Make (or buy) something resembling the 61000-4-2 target. 2.Use a Faraday Cage. 3.Be aware how important the POSITION of the ESD Gun Grounding Strap is to these measurements ... especially to risetime measurements. I always take a photograph of the setup, including the "shape" of the Grounding Strap and where it is attached. If you don't do this, you'll get pretty wild variability between verifications. 4.Even a 500 MHz oscilloscope would probably be OK for "verification". Just make certain that all setup parameters (including Ground Strap placement) are EXACTLY the same each time. That way, if the GUN happens to change, you'll at least know what to do next. Give me a call if you'd like a photo. Good luck! Jim Ericson Quality System Manager/Sr. EMC Engineer Acme Testing Company Acme, WA. 888-226-3837 j...@acmetesting.com - Original Message - From: "John Harrington" To: Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 11:45 AM Subject: ESD gun verification > > Hello All > > Does any one have a quick and dirty (and hopefully cheap) way to verify the > performance of an ESD gun. > > Please, no one suggest building the current sensing system described in the > back of IEC 61000-4-2. I don't understand the drawings let alone have the > workshop or materials to consider it. Although, I may pay someone to build > it for me... > > I am desperate enough to consider buying something off the shelf (if I could > find said shelf). > > All help appreciated > > John Harrington > EMC Technical Manager > F-Squared Laboratories > > --- > This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety > Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. > > Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ > > To cancel your subscription, send mail to: > majord...@ieee.org > with the single line: > unsubscribe emc-pstc > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com > Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org > Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org > > Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc > This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: ESD Gun "verification"
Dave:
Yes. The current-sensing transducer that I built ("Pelligrini Target") is
per the Annex B drawings in EN 61000-4-2:1995 + A1:1998 +A2:2001. It has
five paralleled 240 Ohm resistors arranged radially around the oscilloscope
side to give 48 Ohms. On the ESD Gun side are twenty-five radially spaced
50 Ohm resistors to give 2 Ohms. Transconductance is 1 Amp/1 Volt into 50
Ohms.
The present Standard requires a minimum 1 GHz bandwidth oscilloscope.
I use a Pasternak Model PE7002-30 (DC to 2 GHz) 1 Watt Attenuator between
the Pelligrini Target and the scope (voltage ratio of 32). The oscilloscope
is a Tektronix 7104 with 7B10 time base, and a 7A26 dual-trace amplifier.
I'll email a couple of photos to you (offline), and copy Mr. Pommerenke and
Mr. Kinney.
Regards,
Jim Ericson
Acme Testing Company
j...@acmetesting.com
- Original Message -
From: "drcuthbert"
To: "'Jim Ericson'"
Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 8:07 AM
Subject: RE: ESD Gun "verification"
> Jim,
>
> I simulated this. I am assuming the circuit is a 2 ohm resistor to GND. If
so, the series inductance must be <0.1 nH for the 2 ohm resistor. Does this
sound right? I can do this with 25 paralleled 49.9 ohm resistors arranged
radially around the input (discharge) point.
>
>Dave Cuthbert
>Micron Technology
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Jim Ericson [mailto:jde...@nas.com]
> Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 11:50 PM
> To: emcpost
> Subject: ESD Gun "verification"
>
>
>
> John:
>
> I faced the same problem about six years ago. I needed to do
"verification"
> in between the expensive annual "calibrations". I first explored the
option
> of buying a Pelligrini Target. As I recall, the quotes I received were
> around $2000. That seemed outrageous, so I decided to build one myself.
> I'll bet it took me at least 3 days to make sense of those goofy
mechanical
> drawings in 61000-4-2. If only they had included a photograph or good
> cross-section in the Standard!
>
> Anyway, I finally figured it out, translated the drawings into something
> understandable by a U.S. machine shop, and got all the brass parts
> fabricated locally. It took several in-process consulting sessions with
the
> machinist, but I finally got all the brass parts done for around $300.
> Then, I purchased a $25 silver electroplating kit. It was like Science
Fair
> time in my workshop! Some hours of painstaking soldering later, the
target
> was completed. I mounted it over a specially-drilled hole in the brass
wall
> panel of our anechoic chamber (you need a Faraday Cage of some sort, and
> this seemed the easiest). I did a quick check using our Tektronix 1 GHz
> analog oscilloscope ... and the risetimes and overall waveforms measured
> within spec! Then, I sent the target to Haefely-Trench for a
"calibration"
> (against their standard Pelligrini target). The results were very, very
> close.
>
> Having performed many verifications at this point, my advice (if you want
> fairly accurate and repeatable results):
>
> 1.Make (or buy) something resembling the 61000-4-2 target.
> 2.Use a Faraday Cage.
> 3.Be aware how important the POSITION of the ESD Gun Grounding Strap
is
> to these measurements ... especially to risetime measurements. I always
> take a photograph of the setup, including the "shape" of the Grounding
Strap
> and where it is attached. If you don't do this, you'll get pretty wild
> variability between verifications.
> 4.Even a 500 MHz oscilloscope would probably be OK for "verification".
> Just make certain that all setup parameters (including Ground Strap
> placement) are EXACTLY the same each time. That way, if the GUN happens
to
> change, you'll at least know what to do next.
>
> Give me a call if you'd like a photo.
>
> Good luck!
>
> Jim Ericson
> Quality System Manager/Sr. EMC Engineer
> Acme Testing Company
> Acme, WA.
> 888-226-3837
> j...@acmetesting.com
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "John Harrington"
> To:
> Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 11:45 AM
> Subject: ESD gun verification
>
>
> >
> > Hello All
> >
> > Does any one have a quick and dirty (and hopefully cheap) way to verify
> the
> > performance of an ESD gun.
> >
> > Please, no one suggest building the current sensing system described in
> the
> > back of IEC 61000-4-2. I don't understand the drawings let alone have
the
> > workshop or materials to consider it. Although, I may pay someone to
> build
> > it for me...
> >
> > I am desperate enough to consider buying something off the shelf (if I
RE: ESD gun verification
Some time back there was a fellow in Belgium offering a rather clever ESD Verification device in the $4800 range. It tracked the rise time and current against the 61000-4-2 Spec. Less than 25% of the cost of a 6 Ghz bandwidth scope. I seem to remember his name was Hendrix from Heavox Company or something like that. (Perhaps other PST members can remember his name - I lost all my archived email when I was forced to "upgrade" my PC to Win-disaster 2000 - sorry) We looked into buying one but rejected it in the end due to the annual calibration costs being almost equal to the original cost and 4-6 weeks turnaround time.Still, it seemed a clever approach to the problem. It may be worth your time to investigate this approach as a lower cost alternate to a wideband scope. Regards, Michael Taylor Colorado -Original Message- From: John Harrington [ mailto:jharring...@f2labs.com] Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 12:46 PM To: 'emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org' Subject: ESD gun verification Hello All Does any one have a quick and dirty (and hopefully cheap) way to verify the performance of an ESD gun. Please, no one suggest building the current sensing system described in the back of IEC 61000-4-2. I don't understand the drawings let alone have the workshop or materials to consider it. Although, I may pay someone to build it for me... I am desperate enough to consider buying something off the shelf (if I could find said shelf). All help appreciated John Harrington EMC Technical Manager F-Squared Laboratories --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: ESD gun verification
Because you're dealing with a relatively high frequency event, you really do need a good target and measurement system to verify that the waveform is in compliance That said, there are a number of ways to verify that the gun is working and is probably okay without going to any extremes. One way that is used by some is to make a simple resitive target (non-high frequency) that will allow you to look at the current waveform and get something that is repeateable. After the gun is calibrated and you are confident that the waveform is really correct - get waveforms --, you can then record the waveform you get with your homemade target. By comparing the waveform from the homemade target to what you got after calibration, you should be able to tell if there is a change in the gun -- it isn't likely there will be minor waveform variations that will cause the gun to go out of calibration -- more likely you'll see peaks that are not correct, no current, or peaks that are no longer controlled by adjusting the voltage level. By the way, we're trying to get a statement into the next revision of 61000-4-2 to make it clear that it is not the users responsibility to calibrate the waveform before each test -- any simple method that allows you to determine that the gun is still working properly AND a valid calibration sticker, will be good enough for VERIFICATION! Good luck. (Of course, you can always send it in for calibration -- you should do so yearly anyway.) Hope this helps, Best Regards, Michael Hopkins Thermo Electron michael.hopk...@thermo.com From: John Harrington [mailto:jharring...@f2labs.com] Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 2:46 PM To: 'emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org' Subject: ESD gun verification Hello All Does any one have a quick and dirty (and hopefully cheap) way to verify the performance of an ESD gun. Please, no one suggest building the current sensing system described in the back of IEC 61000-4-2. I don't understand the drawings let alone have the workshop or materials to consider it. Although, I may pay someone to build it for me... I am desperate enough to consider buying something off the shelf (if I could find said shelf). All help appreciated John Harrington EMC Technical Manager F-Squared Laboratories This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: ESD gun verification
Dear John, It depends on what you want. But at first we need to discuss one issue of definition of "verificaiton", "calibration" or all kinds of similar words. I define a "calibration" as a traceble measurement and a "verification" as a measurement that helps to establish confidence that some instrument is still OK. A "verification" by this definition is not traceble. In EMC, using a comb-generator daily to check you emissions equipment (antenna + amp + cable + SA) is a verification. 1) If you are going to do a formal calibration, you have to follow the standard and have to have a bandwidth of at least 1 GHz. 2) If you are just doing a verification, you can build your own current target, even if it only works so and so. Then you take some oscilloscope, e.g., 500 MHz bandwidth and do a reference measurement after the ESD generator has been "calibrated" (see above for definition). From that day on, you dischare the generator into your self-made structure and compare to the reference. Now you need to derive some useful criteria to handle diviations. But in general, your aim is just to establish more confidence in the ESD generator's calibration status. So your measurement do not need to capture all parameters in good fidelity. Of course, you have to do your traceble calibration, e.g., every year or so. The present ESD standard is not very clear in the use of "verification" and "calibration". But the definitions above are the ones that TC77b-WG-9 intended. The new version of the standard, that is in a CDV stage, clarifies this better. David Pommerenke University Missouri Rolla From: John Harrington [mailto:jharring...@f2labs.com] Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 1:46 PM To: 'emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org' Subject: ESD gun verification Hello All Does any one have a quick and dirty (and hopefully cheap) way to verify the performance of an ESD gun. Please, no one suggest building the current sensing system described in the back of IEC 61000-4-2. I don't understand the drawings let alone have the workshop or materials to consider it. Although, I may pay someone to build it for me... I am desperate enough to consider buying something off the shelf (if I could find said shelf). All help appreciated John Harrington EMC Technical Manager F-Squared Laboratories This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: ESD gun verification
I read in !emc-pstc that drcuthb...@micron.com wrote (in ) about 'ESD gun verification' on Thu, 1 May 2003: >to verify the waveform and charge you will need a Tektronix CT-1 current >transformer, a 500 MHz digital oscilloscope, and a 500 ohm high voltage >resistor. A 1/4 watt or larger carbon comp will work. Be aware that it has a >voltage coefficient. > >This will allow you to view the rise time, the decay time, and calculate the >total charge in coulombs (amps X seconds). I have been working on this subject >myself for the past couple of days. I have been view actual human discharges, an >ESD gun, and have built my own miniature ESD generator. The generator and SPICE >model are amazingly close when using component models that incorporate the >parasitics. If that is true, I wonder why the people who investigated the previous version of the calibrator found a need for a 6 GHz scope among other exotica. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: ESD gun verification
Hello John, A couple of years back at the IEEE EMC symposium a test house in Belgium gave a talk on a go no go tester that I believe you still can get. They also make a Pelligrini Target with a wider bandwidth than what you get if you build it as per those drawings in the standard. For more detailed info go to http://www.hevrox.be/ and click on the "Products" button Best Regards, Kevin Harris Manager, Approvals and CAD Services Digital Security Controls 3301 Langstaff Road Concord, Ontario CANADA L4K 4L2 Tel: +1 905 760 3000 Ext. 2378 Fax +1 905 760 3020 Email: kevinharr...@dsc.com From: John Harrington [mailto:jharring...@f2labs.com] Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 2:46 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: ESD gun verification Hello All Does any one have a quick and dirty (and hopefully cheap) way to verify the performance of an ESD gun. Please, no one suggest building the current sensing system described in the back of IEC 61000-4-2. I don't understand the drawings let alone have the workshop or materials to consider it. Although, I may pay someone to build it for me... I am desperate enough to consider buying something off the shelf (if I could find said shelf). All help appreciated John Harrington EMC Technical Manager F-Squared Laboratories This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: ESD gun verification
John, to verify the waveform and charge you will need a Tektronix CT-1 current transformer, a 500 MHz digital oscilloscope, and a 500 ohm high voltage resistor. A 1/4 watt or larger carbon comp will work. Be aware that it has a voltage coefficient. This will allow you to view the rise time, the decay time, and calculate the total charge in coulombs (amps X seconds). I have been working on this subject myself for the past couple of days. I have been view actual human discharges, an ESD gun, and have built my own miniature ESD generator. The generator and SPICE model are amazingly close when using component models that incorporate the parasitics. Dave Cuthbert Micron Technology From: John Harrington [mailto:jharring...@f2labs.com] Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 12:46 PM To: 'emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org' Subject: ESD gun verification Hello All Does any one have a quick and dirty (and hopefully cheap) way to verify the performance of an ESD gun. Please, no one suggest building the current sensing system described in the back of IEC 61000-4-2. I don't understand the drawings let alone have the workshop or materials to consider it. Although, I may pay someone to build it for me... I am desperate enough to consider buying something off the shelf (if I could find said shelf). All help appreciated John Harrington EMC Technical Manager F-Squared Laboratories This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
ESD gun verification
Hello All Does any one have a quick and dirty (and hopefully cheap) way to verify the performance of an ESD gun. Please, no one suggest building the current sensing system described in the back of IEC 61000-4-2. I don't understand the drawings let alone have the workshop or materials to consider it. Although, I may pay someone to build it for me... I am desperate enough to consider buying something off the shelf (if I could find said shelf). All help appreciated John Harrington EMC Technical Manager F-Squared Laboratories This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
