Re: [PSES] EMC requirements for developer/evaluation boards
In message caey+zho7p8ud3cpwftnkrbzvembc0fgrfclkaqrcoz4pdh2...@mail.gmail.com, dated Thu, 24 Oct 2013, EMC Guy emc.guy@gmail.com writes: Big chip makers like Texas Instruments and others sell Eval boards to let developers test out a chip before deciding if they want to include it in their design. These boards are usually not encased in a metal box, and are meant to be used naked on a workbench with often many, many cables attached to them. I would like to know the EMC requirements for, let's say the US and Europe (FCC and CE), on this type of equipment not intended for sale to the general public. If these products (they are sold, not given away) are exempt, what is the method to get through customs without any EMC labeling on the device or packaging? I have some new information. For Europe, the EMC Directive (or perhaps the RTTE Directive) does apply. (The LVD might apply to some products as well.) This clarification may be due to the introduction of 'bare board' products like Raspberry Pi and Arduino, which differ from evaluation boards in target market, price and volume shipped, but could be difficult for regulators to distinguish and there might be fears of abuse of any concession. The way to cope with this seems to be to apply the Directive and use the EMC Assessment file to record and justify interpretations of the standards (the Generic EMC standards may be appropriate) necessary when applied to a bare board for use in a laboratory environment. For example, the ESD tests might be applied only to the shells of connectors, not everywhere, and cable lengths might be restricted to 2 metres. These interpretations would need to be notified to users in the product documentation, to ensure as far as possible that they are observed. The ESD issue could be covered by a warning to take normal anti-static precautions. There is no guarantee that this will fully resolve a challenge to the CE marking by a zealous regulator, but without such a comprehensive EMC Assessment file, the exposure is greatly increased. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Nondum ex silvis sumus John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] EMC requirements for developer/evaluation boards
Your philosophy is mine but for one thing: It's not because a product cannot meet requirements as put on the market that it should be excluded .. It could for example be sold in an enclosure, so as to meet ESD requirements. It's not a absolute requirement for these board to be sold as a bare PCB. It has consequences for the prices of course but that is valid for each device, not for development boards only. And it is not because you can touch a chip, that it need to be tested. Standards speak about likely to be touched in normal use. Connector internal pins on my Ipad are accessible too, but most standards do not include them for ESD testing. It may be wise to do so, but that is another story. BTW did anyone obtain a satisfactorily answer from Farnell or any other seller ? Your opinion about the EC in these, in casu their authors, is not mine. EC texts do generally excel in quality, what need not be the same as clear to us, or in line with our needs. Note that they are addressed to the member states and their legal advisors and not to the end users. If unclear on a special subject, than it certainly is the case because the subject is not well enough defined, or it would open a way to avoid requirements by what i call smart naming or smart selling. Regards, Ing. Gert Gremmen, BSc g.grem...@cetest.nl www.cetest.nl Kiotoweg 363 3047 BG Rotterdam T 31(0)104152426 F 31(0)104154953 Before printing, think about the environment. -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: Piotr Galka [mailto:piotr.ga...@micromade.pl] Verzonden: Monday, November 04, 2013 6:23 PM Aan: EMC-PSTC; ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen Onderwerp: Re: [PSES] EMC requirements for developer/evaluation boards Hi Gert, To Piotr: ESD test are normally carried out on enclosure and connector shielding, not to internal circuits. HCP and VCP discharge are designed for this. My logic is: The idea of ESD test is to check possible events which can happen in normal use of device. The possible source of ESD are human fingers. Human fingers touches enclosure and not internal circuits because enclosure is between fingers and internal circuits. So ESD is tested on enclosure and on HCP and VCP = all expected ESD that can happen to and near device. If device has plastic enclosure than in real ESD to something near device has higher probability than to device (which is close to 0%). If there is no enclosure than human fingers can touch directly internal circuits so following the idea of testing all possible ESD events in my opinion ESD should be also tested to internal circuits. I think that for such device the ESD to internal circuits has much higher probability than to something near (HCP and VCP). There is no idea to testing something less probable and not testing something more probable. If the prototype board is to be used only in ESD protected environment than testing ESD to internal circuits can have no sense but testing ESD to HCP and VCP also has no sense. But generally I think that prototype board should be excluded from EMC at all and it should be written in the first EMC directive version long time ago. When I first time read EMC (in 2002 - two years before we (Poland) joined EU) the question about prototype board was my first thought. Being not clear solved in directive that subject makes me to have clear opinion about its authors. Best Regards Piotr Galka - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] EMC requirements for developer/evaluation boards
In message FCA549BE3ECF9D4CB8CB8576837EA48920A300@ZEUS.cetest.local, dated Tue, 5 Nov 2013, ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen g.grem...@cetest.nl writes: Note that they are addressed to the member states and their legal advisors and not to the end users. That has been put forward by the Commission as an excuse for incomprehensible or unrealistic texts. Manufacturers WILL look at the Directives, not even their own national regulations, let alone those of 30 other countries, because, as has been found by experience, many of them do not interpret the relevant Directive correctly or reasonably, and getting that publicly corrected is usually incredibly difficult. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Nondum ex silvis sumus John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] EMC requirements for developer/evaluation boards
I've been reading through all your answers and comments like through a good book. I still have no idea how the story will end! To follow-up on Gert Gremmen's comments, the kind of eval board I am adressing here is the kind with a whole bunch of connectors and test points installed directly on the PCB surface, to monitor clock signals or to inject voltage biases from external sources while the IC under test is being investigated. Of course any eval board could be placed inside an enclosure with shielded connectors for everything, but I've never seen that. And of course, doing so for an item not intended to be a finished product would add a lot of design cost that would lead to an unaffordable price for the eval boards, essentially killing the purpose. The purpose of my enquiry was not to find a way to go around directives and standards to maybe put humans or licensed communications in danger, but was to find out what was the actual regulatory framework that adresses these very specific kits. And from all of your generous comments, the only conclusion I can draw today is: there is none. No authority (in Europe at the least) has ever published specific guidelines on the subject. So do what you think is right, but be prepared (with a strong enough legal department) to defend your decisions. Although I'm really holding on to Brian Kunde's interpretation of apparatus and end-user as described in the Guide for the EMC Directive. I am suprised at the lack of FCC-sided comments. Is this because you think FCC Form 740 option 3. The described equipment is being imported in limited quantities for testing and evaluation for compliance with technical requirements or marketing suitability. The equipment will not be offered for sale or otherwise marketed. is sufficient to go through customs with an untested eval board? John B. On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 9:34 AM, ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen g.grem...@cetest.nl wrote: Your philosophy is mine but for one thing: It's not because a product cannot meet requirements as put on the market that it should be excluded .. It could for example be sold in an enclosure, so as to meet ESD requirements. It's not a absolute requirement for these board to be sold as a bare PCB. It has consequences for the prices of course but that is valid for each device, not for development boards only. And it is not because you can touch a chip, that it need to be tested. Standards speak about likely to be touched in normal use. Connector internal pins on my Ipad are accessible too, but most standards do not include them for ESD testing. It may be wise to do so, but that is another story. BTW did anyone obtain a satisfactorily answer from Farnell or any other seller ? Your opinion about the EC in these, in casu their authors, is not mine. EC texts do generally excel in quality, what need not be the same as clear to us, or in line with our needs. Note that they are addressed to the member states and their legal advisors and not to the end users. If unclear on a special subject, than it certainly is the case because the subject is not well enough defined, or it would open a way to avoid requirements by what i call smart naming or smart selling. Regards, Ing. Gert Gremmen, BSc g.grem...@cetest.nl www.cetest.nl Kiotoweg 363 3047 BG Rotterdam T 31(0)104152426 F 31(0)104154953 Before printing, think about the environment. -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: Piotr Galka [mailto:piotr.ga...@micromade.pl] Verzonden: Monday, November 04, 2013 6:23 PM Aan: EMC-PSTC; ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen Onderwerp: Re: [PSES] EMC requirements for developer/evaluation boards Hi Gert, To Piotr: ESD test are normally carried out on enclosure and connector shielding, not to internal circuits. HCP and VCP discharge are designed for this. My logic is: The idea of ESD test is to check possible events which can happen in normal use of device. The possible source of ESD are human fingers. Human fingers touches enclosure and not internal circuits because enclosure is between fingers and internal circuits. So ESD is tested on enclosure and on HCP and VCP = all expected ESD that can happen to and near device. If device has plastic enclosure than in real ESD to something near device has higher probability than to device (which is close to 0%). If there is no enclosure than human fingers can touch directly internal circuits so following the idea of testing all possible ESD events in my opinion ESD should be also tested to internal circuits. I think that for such device the ESD to internal circuits has much higher probability than to something near (HCP and VCP). There is no idea to testing something less probable and not testing something more probable. If the prototype board is to be used only in ESD protected environment than testing ESD to internal circuits can have no sense but testing ESD to HCP
Re: [PSES] EMC requirements for developer/evaluation boards
Some 'experts' were recruited at some stage as 'advisers', but the selection seems to have been based on criteria other than technical expertise. As always :) or rather As always :( Piotr Galka - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] EMC requirements for developer/evaluation boards
In message caey+zhpwfgbq9ctmf5rn-dp6a6sr0tauarovia5ch3sd6sx...@mail.gmail.com, dated Tue, 5 Nov 2013, EMC Guy emc.guy@gmail.com writes: . Although I'm really holding on to Brian Kunde's interpretation of apparatus and end-user as described in the Guide for the EMC Directive. I wouldn't advise that: Brian's interpretation is not shared by others. The end-user is simply the person who does not pass the product on but uses it. The definition of apparatus is very broad and an evaluation board is undoubtedly apparatus. In view of the fact that thousands of these boards have been supplied and no-one has reported here a problem with the authorities suggest (but does not guarantee) that you will have no problem. The Commission is conducting a strong drive to intensify market surveillance. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Nondum ex silvis sumus John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] EMC requirements for developer/evaluation boards
Sorry I don’t have time to look it up, but the FCC regulations do discuss equipment operation at trade shows and other places while the product is still under the designers control. The principle restriction was labeling that was clearing identified that it wasn’t for sale and that no money could transfer until the unit was approved. Sorry this is really vague and I took a very brief shot at finding it in the rules but don’t have time for a real search. But you should be able to find it at least for the US – obviously the EU doesn’t care about what the FCC would allow. So depending on where this is going the allowance for pre-approved equipment in the us may or may not be pertinent anyway. I can see the labeling in my mind and it even had to be red in color (colour for my EU friends) but just can’t come up with the actual clause just now. Gary From: EMC Guy [mailto:emc.guy@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2013 7:44 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] EMC requirements for developer/evaluation boards I've been reading through all your answers and comments like through a good book. I still have no idea how the story will end! To follow-up on Gert Gremmen's comments, the kind of eval board I am adressing here is the kind with a whole bunch of connectors and test points installed directly on the PCB surface, to monitor clock signals or to inject voltage biases from external sources while the IC under test is being investigated. Of course any eval board could be placed inside an enclosure with shielded connectors for everything, but I've never seen that. And of course, doing so for an item not intended to be a finished product would add a lot of design cost that would lead to an unaffordable price for the eval boards, essentially killing the purpose. The purpose of my enquiry was not to find a way to go around directives and standards to maybe put humans or licensed communications in danger, but was to find out what was the actual regulatory framework that adresses these very specific kits. And from all of your generous comments, the only conclusion I can draw today is: there is none. No authority (in Europe at the least) has ever published specific guidelines on the subject. So do what you think is right, but be prepared (with a strong enough legal department) to defend your decisions. Although I'm really holding on to Brian Kunde's interpretation of apparatus and end-user as described in the Guide for the EMC Directive. I am suprised at the lack of FCC-sided comments. Is this because you think FCC Form 740 option 3. The described equipment is being imported in limited quantities for testing and evaluation for compliance with technical requirements or marketing suitability. The equipment will not be offered for sale or otherwise marketed. is sufficient to go through customs with an untested eval board? John B. On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 9:34 AM, ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen g.grem...@cetest.nlmailto:g.grem...@cetest.nl wrote: Your philosophy is mine but for one thing: It's not because a product cannot meet requirements as put on the market that it should be excluded .. It could for example be sold in an enclosure, so as to meet ESD requirements. It's not a absolute requirement for these board to be sold as a bare PCB. It has consequences for the prices of course but that is valid for each device, not for development boards only. And it is not because you can touch a chip, that it need to be tested. Standards speak about likely to be touched in normal use. Connector internal pins on my Ipad are accessible too, but most standards do not include them for ESD testing. It may be wise to do so, but that is another story. BTW did anyone obtain a satisfactorily answer from Farnell or any other seller ? Your opinion about the EC in these, in casu their authors, is not mine. EC texts do generally excel in quality, what need not be the same as clear to us, or in line with our needs. Note that they are addressed to the member states and their legal advisors and not to the end users. If unclear on a special subject, than it certainly is the case because the subject is not well enough defined, or it would open a way to avoid requirements by what i call smart naming or smart selling. Regards, Ing. Gert Gremmen, BSc g.grem...@cetest.nlmailto:g.grem...@cetest.nl www.cetest.nlhttp://www.cetest.nl Kiotoweg 363 3047 BG Rotterdam T 31(0)104152426 F 31(0)104154953 • Before printing, think about the environment. -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: Piotr Galka [mailto:piotr.ga...@micromade.plmailto:piotr.ga...@micromade.pl] Verzonden: Monday, November 04, 2013 6:23 PM Aan: EMC-PSTC; ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen Onderwerp: Re: [PSES] EMC requirements for developer/evaluation boards Hi Gert, To Piotr: ESD test are normally carried out on enclosure and connector shielding, not to internal circuits. HCP
Re: [PSES] EMC requirements for developer/evaluation boards
Gary, You are referring to FCC CFR47 Part 2.803 (c)(2) --- (ii) A radio frequency device that is in the conceptual, developmental, design or pre-production stage may be offered for sale solely to business, commercial, industrial, scientific or medical users (but not an offer for sale to other parties or to end users located in a residential environment) if the prospective buyer is advised in writing at the time of the offer for sale that the equipment is subject to the FCC rules and that the equipment will comply with the appropriate rules before delivery to the buyer or to centers of distribution. (iii) (A) A radio frequency device may be advertised or displayed, (e.g.,at a trade show or exhibition) if accompanied by a conspicuous notice containing this language: This device has not been authorized as required by the rules of the Federal Communications Commission. This device is not, and may not be, offered for sale or lease, or sold or leased, until authorization is obtained. --- It starts out very promising, but then it says: ...and that the equipment will comply with the appropriate rules before delivery to the buyer The eval board will *never* comply with the appropriate rules, it's the whole point of the board. But I guess the first part of the sentence is essentially the free-pass I was looking for. I had never payed attention to the fact that this statement actually allows the sale of a developmental device. Always thought that no money exhange was allowed under this section. Thank you! John On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 11:12 AM, McInturff, Gary gary.mcintu...@esterline.com wrote: Sorry I don’t have time to look it up, but the FCC regulations do discuss equipment operation at trade shows and other places while the product is still under the designers control. The principle restriction was labeling that was clearing identified that it wasn’t for sale and that no money could transfer until the unit was approved. Sorry this is really vague and I took a very brief shot at finding it in the rules but don’t have time for a real search. But you should be able to find it at least for the US – obviously the EU doesn’t care about what the FCC would allow. So depending on where this is going the allowance for pre-approved equipment in the us may or may not be pertinent anyway. I can see the labeling in my mind and it even had to be red in color (colour for my EU friends) but just can’t come up with the actual clause just now. Gary *From:* EMC Guy [mailto:emc.guy@gmail.com] *Sent:* Tuesday, November 05, 2013 7:44 AM *To:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG *Subject:* Re: [PSES] EMC requirements for developer/evaluation boards I've been reading through all your answers and comments like through a good book. I still have no idea how the story will end! To follow-up on Gert Gremmen's comments, the kind of eval board I am adressing here is the kind with a whole bunch of connectors and test points installed directly on the PCB surface, to monitor clock signals or to inject voltage biases from external sources while the IC under test is being investigated. Of course any eval board could be placed inside an enclosure with shielded connectors for everything, but I've never seen that. And of course, doing so for an item not intended to be a finished product would add a lot of design cost that would lead to an unaffordable price for the eval boards, essentially killing the purpose. The purpose of my enquiry was not to find a way to go around directives and standards to maybe put humans or licensed communications in danger, but was to find out what was the actual regulatory framework that adresses these very specific kits. And from all of your generous comments, the only conclusion I can draw today is: there is none. No authority (in Europe at the least) has ever published specific guidelines on the subject. So do what you think is right, but be prepared (with a strong enough legal department) to defend your decisions. Although I'm really holding on to Brian Kunde's interpretation of apparatus and end-user as described in the Guide for the EMC Directive. I am suprised at the lack of FCC-sided comments. Is this because you think FCC Form 740 option 3. The described equipment is being imported in limited quantities for testing and evaluation for compliance with technical requirements or marketing suitability. The equipment will not be offered for sale or otherwise marketed. is sufficient to go through customs with an untested eval board? John B. On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 9:34 AM, ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen g.grem...@cetest.nl wrote: Your philosophy is mine but for one thing: It's not because a product cannot meet requirements as put on the market that it should be excluded .. It could for example be sold in an enclosure, so as to meet ESD requirements. It's not a absolute requirement for these board to be sold
Re: [PSES] EMC requirements for developer/evaluation boards
Hi Gert, It's not a absolute requirement for these board to be sold as a bare PCB. It has consequences for the prices of course but that is valid for each device, not for development boards only. Not agree. I hardly can imagine not development board sold without enclosure and destined to normal use without enclosure so enclosures are real need in that case (adds something else, not only price). If you can find some such products it will be only few so not it is valid for each device. For development board enclosure is really not needed. Specially for boards with some area to assemble your own circuits working with circuits originally on board. Enclosure would function as just delivery packaging so as device should be tested in configuration as in normal use (it is logical) the device should be tested without such enclosure. And it is not because you can touch a chip, that it need to be tested. Standards speak about likely to be touched in normal use. Connector internal pins on my Ipad are accessible too, but most standards do not include them for ESD testing. It may be wise to do so, but that is another story. Yes, it is another story, but touching of connector internal pins can be (up to some level) understood as not likely, but touching internal circuits on development board is likely. Each time you take such board in your hand you touch some conducting things connected to some elements and probably IC pins on it. Your opinion about the EC in these, in casu their authors, is not mine. EC texts do generally excel in quality, what need not be the same as clear to us, or in line with our needs. Note that they are addressed to the member states and their legal advisors and not to the end users. If unclear on a special subject, than it certainly is the case because the subject is not well enough defined, or it would open a way to avoid requirements by what i call smart naming or smart selling. When I was discovering how directives work I understood (may be wrongly) that directives need to be directly written into member law. It has to be so because if it would not be so than they would not do the main job they are intended to - to make the whole market the one market with the same rules. As I remember I have read long time ago that one member was 1 year late in adopting one directive and (during that year) some firms did something according to the directive and not to the member law and later the firms won in court (it was something about hotels as I remember, but not sure). So in my opinion no other law source should be so clear as directives should be. Any unclear point in them has the effect of many unclear in member laws (and long discussions here :) ). If I during first reading of directive (not reading any other directives before) see some problems in it I don't believe no one noticed it. I think they noticed, and I don't understand why they didn't do anything with it. Regards Piotr Galka - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] EMC requirements for developer/evaluation boards
In message CAEY+ZhP=xo6m36mu3odkkmzxq8ma0cb360wphpzsnatt9vs...@mail.gmail.com, dated Tue, 5 Nov 2013, EMC Guy emc.guy@gmail.com writes: It starts out very promising, but then it says: ...and that the equipment will comply with the appropriate rules before delivery to the buyer The eval board will *never* comply with the appropriate rules, it's the whole point of the board. But I guess the first part of the sentence is essentially the free-pass I was looking for It isn't really, for the reason you cite in your first sentence. The text says the device can be sold on the understanding that it will comply when delivered. This surely is intended to cover custom-made equipment where payment or part-payment is agreed to be made before delivery. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Nondum ex silvis sumus John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] EMC requirements for developer/evaluation boards
Hi there, First, IMHO eval boards are typically end-use apparatus as they are not likely integrated into other equipment or even into enclosures. I wanted to chime in on this to mention that such an allowance may be found in Article 4.3 of the EMC Directive. Although eval boards are not specifically described, there are allowances similar to the FCC Part 2.803 reference, but 2.803 pertains to equipment prior to autorization typically pertaining to intentional radiators. It's not clear to me if the subject eval board is an intentional radiator or not. However, please note the last sentence of the Article 4.3 paragraph, Demonstration may only take place provided that adquate measures are taken to avoid electromagnetic disturbances. This could mean that operation of these devices may be limited to faraday cages, screen rooms, 30 meters away from anything, etc (the text is not at all clear on that point). That doesn't seem practical as most of these eval boards will likely be operated in an engineering lab type of environment being used by engineers. Well, that's my 2 cents (2 pence in EU). Comments are welcome. Best regards, Ron Pickard Sent from my Android phone Original message From: EMC Guy emc.guy@gmail.com Date: 11/05/2013 9:37 AM (GMT-07:00) To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] EMC requirements for developer/evaluation boards Gary, You are referring to FCC CFR47 Part 2.803 (c)(2) --- (ii) A radio frequency device that is in the conceptual, developmental, design or pre-production stage may be offered for sale solely to business, commercial, industrial, scientific or medical users (but not an offer for sale to other parties or to end users located in a residential environment) if the prospective buyer is advised in writing at the time of the offer for sale that the equipment is subject to the FCC rules and that the equipment will comply with the appropriate rules before delivery to the buyer or to centers of distribution. (iii) (A) A radio frequency device may be advertised or displayed, (e.g., at a trade show or exhibition) if accompanied by a conspicuous notice containing this language: This device has not been authorized as required by the rules of the Federal Communications Commission. This device is not, and may not be, offered for sale or lease, or sold or leased, until authorization is obtained. --- It starts out very promising, but then it says: ...and that the equipment will comply with the appropriate rules before delivery to the buyer The eval board will *never* comply with the appropriate rules, it's the whole point of the board. But I guess the first part of the sentence is essentially the free-pass I was looking for. I had never payed attention to the fact that this statement actually allows the sale of a developmental device. Always thought that no money exhange was allowed under this section. Thank you! John On Tue, Nov 5, 2013 at 11:12 AM, McInturff, Gary gary.mcintu...@esterline.com wrote: Sorry I don’t have time to look it up, but the FCC regulations do discuss equipment operation at trade shows and other places while the product is still under the designers control. The principle restriction was labeling that was clearing identified that it wasn’t for sale and that no money could transfer until the unit was approved. Sorry this is really vague and I took a very brief shot at finding it in the rules but don’t have time for a real search. But you should be able to find it at least for the US – obviously the EU doesn’t care about what the FCC would allow. So depending on where this is going the allowance for pre-approved equipment in the us may or may not be pertinent anyway. I can see the labeling in my mind and it even had to be red in color (colour for my EU friends) but just can’t come up with the actual clause just now. Gary From: EMC Guy [mailto:emc.guy@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2013 7:44 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] EMC requirements for developer/evaluation boards I've been reading through all your answers and comments like through a good book. I still have no idea how the story will end! To follow-up on Gert Gremmen's comments, the kind of eval board I am adressing here is the kind with a whole bunch of connectors and test points installed directly on the PCB surface, to monitor clock signals or to inject voltage biases from external sources while the IC under test is being investigated. Of course any eval board could be placed inside an enclosure with shielded connectors for everything, but I've never seen that. And of course, doing so for an item not intended to be a finished product would add a lot of design cost that would lead to an unaffordable price for the eval boards, essentially killing the purpose. The purpose of my enquiry was not to find a way to go around directives and standards
Re: [PSES] EMC requirements for developer/evaluation boards
Yes - delivered is actually two parts - Financial completing and physical transportation. That argument has been used for Beta tests of new equipment. It might be a complete assembly that someone has agreed to be a beta test site - these are NOT production units and user is a part, a final part, or design process. The beta unit is sometimes sold AFTER the completion of the beta test but never before. Physical delivery has occurred but monetary delivery has not. The unit has not been full delivered. Beta customers are often compensated somewhat in the purchase price for their knowingly accepting, testing and report errors and glitches that are likely to occur in this sort of test. Beta test equipment is still under the control of the developing company - as is development equipment. Gary -Original Message- From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk] Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2013 9:20 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] EMC requirements for developer/evaluation boards In message CAEY+ZhP=xo6m36mu3odkkmzxq8ma0cb360wphpzsnatt9vs...@mail.gmail.com, dated Tue, 5 Nov 2013, EMC Guy emc.guy@gmail.com writes: It starts out very promising, but then it says: ...and that the equipment will comply with the appropriate rules before delivery to the buyer The eval board will *never* comply with the appropriate rules, it's the whole point of the board. But I guess the first part of the sentence is essentially the free-pass I was looking for It isn't really, for the reason you cite in your first sentence. The text says the device can be sold on the understanding that it will comply when delivered. This surely is intended to cover custom-made equipment where payment or part-payment is agreed to be made before delivery. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Nondum ex silvis sumus John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] EMC requirements for developer/evaluation boards
In message 7gvlanbec00i8qwsu6b4is3d.1383671852...@email.android.com, dated Tue, 5 Nov 2013, Ron Pickard rpick...@rpqconsulting.com writes: However, please note the last sentence of the Article 4.3 paragraph, Demonstration may only take place provided that adquate measures are taken to avoid electromagnetic disturbances. This could mean that operation of these devices may be limited to faraday cages, screen rooms, 30 meters away from anything, etc (the text is not at all clear on that point). That doesn't seem practical as most of these eval boards will likely be operated in an engineering lab type of environment being used by engineers. The text applies to equipment *demonstrated* (perhaps in exhibitions - this is something that the German industry has a fixation on, due to past experience of Clipboard Man shutting down costly exhibition stands). The test is actually clear, but the clarity is in the BIG word 'adequate'. If cage, screened room, large separation are necessary, then they are required, if not, not. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Nondum ex silvis sumus John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] EMC requirements for developer/evaluation boards
Hi Gert, To Piotr: ESD test are normally carried out on enclosure and connector shielding, not to internal circuits. HCP and VCP discharge are designed for this. My logic is: The idea of ESD test is to check possible events which can happen in normal use of device. The possible source of ESD are human fingers. Human fingers touches enclosure and not internal circuits because enclosure is between fingers and internal circuits. So ESD is tested on enclosure and on HCP and VCP = all expected ESD that can happen to and near device. If device has plastic enclosure than in real ESD to something near device has higher probability than to device (which is close to 0%). If there is no enclosure than human fingers can touch directly internal circuits so following the idea of testing all possible ESD events in my opinion ESD should be also tested to internal circuits. I think that for such device the ESD to internal circuits has much higher probability than to something near (HCP and VCP). There is no idea to testing something less probable and not testing something more probable. If the prototype board is to be used only in ESD protected environment than testing ESD to internal circuits can have no sense but testing ESD to HCP and VCP also has no sense. But generally I think that prototype board should be excluded from EMC at all and it should be written in the first EMC directive version long time ago. When I first time read EMC (in 2002 - two years before we (Poland) joined EU) the question about prototype board was my first thought. Being not clear solved in directive that subject makes me to have clear opinion about its authors. Best Regards Piotr Galka - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] EMC requirements for developer/evaluation boards
In message 0D28C9BA9E9F4B019163BCA9DE6FACE6@MmPc24, dated Mon, 4 Nov 2013, Piotr Galka piotr.ga...@micromade.pl writes: When I first time read EMC (in 2002 - two years before we (Poland) joined EU) the question about prototype board was my first thought. Being not clear solved in directive that subject makes me to have clear opinion about its authors. The responsibility is actually with the senior Commission staff, who entrusted the drafting of the Directive to experts in legal language who were quite unfamiliar with electronics and electronics terminology. The authors would not have known of a 'prototype board' as an article of commerce. Some 'experts' were recruited at some stage as 'advisers', but the selection seems to have been based on criteria other than technical expertise. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Nondum ex silvis sumus John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] EMC requirements for developer/evaluation boards
No John, no jail for me. Being/Owning a test house I am officially allowed to put into service non-tested equipment, and even non compliant equipment without any restriction Regards, Ing. Gert Gremmen, BSc g.grem...@cetest.nl www.cetest.nl Kiotoweg 363 3047 BG Rotterdam T 31(0)104152426 F 31(0)104154953 Before printing, think about the environment. -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk] Verzonden: Tuesday, October 29, 2013 2:49 PM Aan: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Onderwerp: Re: [PSES] EMC requirements for developer/evaluation boards In message FCA549BE3ECF9D4CB8CB8576837EA48920A2C6@ZEUS.cetest.local, dated Tue, 29 Oct 2013, ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen g.grem...@cetest.nl writes: I think the real reason for this exception going unnoticed is simply because they are shipped in small quantities (1 at a time). I now and then buy Ebay stuff from the far-east without any ce marking and it arrives always, in spite of clearly not being tested/ce marked or compliant. Go directly to jail. Do not collect 200 Euros.(;-) I have taken steps to try to get the matter properly resolved, by adopting in the EMCD the words from RoHS II quoted here, but I am not in a position to give details. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk If dictionaries were correct, we would only need one, because they would all give the same information. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] EMC requirements for developer/evaluation boards
In message FCA549BE3ECF9D4CB8CB8576837EA48920A2D2@ZEUS.cetest.local, dated Wed, 30 Oct 2013, ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen g.grem...@cetest.nl writes: Being/Owning a test house I am officially allowed to put into service non-tested equipment, and even non compliant equipment without any restriction When I wanted to test some equipment on an OATS, the British regulator restricted me to 1 dB less than the then current emission limits! Things have moved on a bit since then but not far enough. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk If dictionaries were correct, we would only need one, because they would all give the same information. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] EMC requirements for developer/evaluation boards
How about that; our Congress works that way too. Ed Price WB6WSN Chula Vista, CA USA -Original Message- From: ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen [mailto:g.grem...@cetest.nl] Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 8:08 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] EMC requirements for developer/evaluation boards No John, no jail for me. Being/Owning a test house I am officially allowed to put into service non-tested equipment, and even non compliant equipment without any restriction Regards, Ing. Gert Gremmen, BSc mailto:g.grem...@cetest.nl g.grem...@cetest.nl http://www.cetest.nl www.cetest.nl - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] EMC requirements for developer/evaluation boards
The EMC directive is not about hazardous malfunctions, but about functional immunity only. The END-user construction seems to me fully not applicable. If the definition had something to do with engineers capable of handling unwanted emissions, if would haven bee formulated like that, in addition if there is one category of engineers that don't know about EMI then it is a certainly digital designer, the target audience for this kind of device. I think the real reason for this exception going unnoticed is simply because they are shipped in small quantities (1 at a time). I now and then buy Ebay stuff from the far-east without any ce marking and it arrives always, in spite of clearly not being tested/ce marked or compliant. To Piotr: ESD test are normally carried out on enclosure and connector shielding, not to internal circuits. HCP and VCP discharge are designed for this. If a device carries a ce mark, it is supposed to comply with all applicable directives, for a piece of electronics that definitely includes the EMC directive in ALL cases (if not clearly exempted). The Farnell answer will never come, because there is no such answer. It's a see, hear, and shut-up clause. But that works only for Farnell, Intel , Motorola etc. If you have a small company forget it. You will be sued and obliged to withdraw all the stuff until you are broke. The best approach is like the PLT stuff. Start developing a standard with virtual limits based on unsound testing techniques, and convince the EC commission that your product will change the way we live and open new ways of interacting together.(Apple talk) Regards, Ing. Gert Gremmen, BSc g.grem...@cetest.nl www.cetest.nl Kiotoweg 363 3047 BG Rotterdam T 31(0)104152426 F 31(0)104154953 Before printing, think about the environment. -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk] Verzonden: Monday, October 28, 2013 10:38 PM Aan: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Onderwerp: Re: [PSES] EMC requirements for developer/evaluation boards In message caey+zhng2vxxykmy11nygckz5mgxk9jenkahdj2khnewuyn...@mail.gmail.com, dated Mon, 28 Oct 2013, EMC Guy emc.guy@gmail.com writes: I've looked at that Intel webpage disclaimer, and it really looks like something invented by their legal department to get out of EMC-testing their eval boards. It isn't worded in a way I would recommend. I did tell you that getting a straight answer from anyone on this issue seems to be impossible: it's firmly in the 'too difficult' folder. Still not sure what decision to make on this one. Designing a board to pass EMC tests (yes, including ESD!) without a metal enclosure might not be easy or even possible in some cases, so we might just take our chances and do what Intel and others do: mark it CE for RoHS II, and include a big disclaimer that the board is intended for engineers who will use their own judgment to mitigate possible EMC issues You need to be very careful with the wording. If the product is extremely unlikely to produce significant emissions, say so. If it would be best to use shielded cables, put that in the product documents. It's very unlikely that regulatory authorities would be concerned about immunity issues UNLESS the product is something like a motor controller, where a lack of immunity could cause hazardous malfunction. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk If dictionaries were correct, we would only need one, because they would all give the same information. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used
Re: [PSES] EMC requirements for developer/evaluation boards
In message FCA549BE3ECF9D4CB8CB8576837EA48920A2C6@ZEUS.cetest.local, dated Tue, 29 Oct 2013, ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen g.grem...@cetest.nl writes: I think the real reason for this exception going unnoticed is simply because they are shipped in small quantities (1 at a time). I now and then buy Ebay stuff from the far-east without any ce marking and it arrives always, in spite of clearly not being tested/ce marked or compliant. Go directly to jail. Do not collect 200 Euros.(;-) I have taken steps to try to get the matter properly resolved, by adopting in the EMCD the words from RoHS II quoted here, but I am not in a position to give details. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk If dictionaries were correct, we would only need one, because they would all give the same information. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] EMC requirements for developer/evaluation boards
Even if the EMC Directive is not applicable by virtue of the end user definition, the item looks as if it could well be in RoHS scope, RoHS also now being a CE-marking directive. If that is the case, it would at least need CE marking under that directive. John C _ From: EMC Guy [mailto:emc.guy@gmail.com] Sent: 25 October 2013 16:48 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] EMC requirements for developer/evaluation boards Hi Brian, Your summary is exemplary. It points out exactly what I have also read in the Guide, that lead me to believe that a Developer Kit might by excluded from the EMC Directive. Particularly the End User definition. Which brings me to the second part of the problem: entering Europe without any marking or DoC whatsoever. Do you know of an established method to declare the non-applicability of CE-marking related directives, so the customs officials do not deny entry each time one of these boards is shipped to Europe. Something that would resemble FCC Form 740 for example. To John Woodgate: Thanks for the lead on Farnell, I have asked them the question, I'll post their answer if I ever get one. John On Fri, Oct 25, 2013 at 10:25 AM, Kunde, Brian brian_ku...@lecotc.com wrote: The Guide for the EMC Directive may be somewhat helpful. As it is sold, do you feel this type of product is really an Apparatus? It has no function as sold. Don't you have to incorporate it with other Components to make it work? Isn't it really a Component or sub-assembly incorporated with other Components or sub-assemblies to create a Prototype Apparatus not intended to be marketed? Can you classify it as a Component or Sub-Assembly which is NOT Intended for Incorporation into an Apparatus??? Referring to the Guide for the EMC Directive 2004/108/EC (8th February 2010), look at the Flow Charts starting on page 10; then go to Flow-Chart 2 on page 16. A Component or Sub-Assembly NOT Intended for Incorporation into an Apparatus would be Excluded from the EMC Directive. An Apparatus must also be intended for the End User. Though in this case, the End User would be an Engineer with knowledge of Electronics which would most likely include at least some knowledge of EMC. On page 17 of the guide where it describes what an End User is, see the text that says, Generally an end-user is deemed to have no qualifications in the field of electromagnetic compatibility. Products not intended for the End User is Excluded from the EMC Directive. In the scope of the EMC Directive, it says, When compliant with the provisions of the EMC Directive, equipment may be placed on the market and/ or put into service in the Community territory, freely moved and operated as designed and intended in the expected electromagnetic environment. So what is the expected electromagnetic environment for a product like this? It is intended to be used Temporarily in an engineering lab or Research and Development lab. What is the Expected EMC Environment of such an area where prototype electronic devices without any EMC testing is commonly operated for long periods of time? Though I cannot find any text that specifically excludes prototype electronic devices operating in an RD environment, it is kind of a no brainer. Hope this is somewhat helpful. Brian -Original Message- From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk] Sent: Friday, October 25, 2013 6:22 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] EMC requirements for developer/evaluation boards In message caey+zhmv+erfxd--dvutjklyva7wbr1dtjdkjxfqyj6m5lg...@mail.gmail.com mailto:CAEY%2BZhMV%2BErfxd--dvUtjKLYva7wbr1dtjDKjxfQyj6M5LG5kA@mail.gmail.c om , dated Fri, 25 Oct 2013, EMC Guy emc.guy@gmail.com writes: . My literature research did not come up with anything helpful, especially for Europe As I explained, you will not find anything explicit about this issue. Wherever you are, you can ask Farnell, but the answers will be Europe-oriented. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk If dictionaries were correct, we would only need one, because they would all give the same information. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp
Re: [PSES] EMC requirements for developer/evaluation boards
On 10/28/2013 1247, John Cotman wrote: Even if the EMC Directive is not applicable by virtue of the end user definition, the item looks as if it could well be in RoHS scope, RoHS also now being a CE-marking directive. If that is the case, it would at least need CE marking under that directive. John C And then we use lead-bearing solder on it. Sweet! Cortland Richmond - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] EMC requirements for developer/evaluation boards
Thanks to all for the reminder on the RoHS II part of the CE-marking. It is still not burned in my head that they are now combined. I've looked at that Intel webpage disclaimer, and it really looks like something invented by their legal department to get out of EMC-testing their eval boards. Still not sure what decision to make on this one. Designing a board to pass EMC tests (yes, including ESD!) without a metal enclosure might not be easy or even possible in some cases, so we might just take our chances and do what Intel and others do: mark it CE for RoHS II, and include a big disclaimer that the board is intended for engineers who will use their own judgment to mitigate possible EMC issues. With my background, I'm not proud of that choice, but it's starting to look like the only realistic approach. Thanks for your help with this one, it is really appreciated. John B. On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 1:07 PM, CR k...@earthlink.net wrote: On 10/28/2013 1247, John Cotman wrote: Even if the EMC Directive is not applicable by virtue of the “end user” definition, the item looks as if it could well be in RoHS scope, RoHS also now being a CE-marking directive. If that is the case, it would at least need CE marking under that directive. ** ** John C And then we use lead-bearing solder on it. Sweet! Cortland Richmond - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to LT; emc-p...@ieee.orgGT; All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas LT;emcp...@radiusnorth.netGT; Mike Cantwell LT;mcantw...@ieee.orgGT; For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher LT;j.bac...@ieee.orgGT; David Heald LT;dhe...@gmail.comGT; - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] EMC requirements for developer/evaluation boards
RoHS II (2011/65/EC) Article 2, Section 4 (j) specifically exempts equipment specifically designed solely for the purposes of research and development only made available on a business-to-business basis. Anything fitting within this exemption would then not fall under the RoHS Directive and would not likely need CE marking for RoHS purposes. Intel's development kit would appear to fit this clause. I wish the other Directives has exemptions that were as clear as the RoHS exemption. Ted Eckert Compliance Engineer Microsoft Corporation ted.eck...@microsoft.commailto:ted.eck...@microsoft.com The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my employer. From: EMC Guy [mailto:emc.guy@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, October 28, 2013 2:20 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] EMC requirements for developer/evaluation boards Thanks to all for the reminder on the RoHS II part of the CE-marking. It is still not burned in my head that they are now combined. I've looked at that Intel webpage disclaimer, and it really looks like something invented by their legal department to get out of EMC-testing their eval boards. Still not sure what decision to make on this one. Designing a board to pass EMC tests (yes, including ESD!) without a metal enclosure might not be easy or even possible in some cases, so we might just take our chances and do what Intel and others do: mark it CE for RoHS II, and include a big disclaimer that the board is intended for engineers who will use their own judgment to mitigate possible EMC issues. With my background, I'm not proud of that choice, but it's starting to look like the only realistic approach. Thanks for your help with this one, it is really appreciated. John B. On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 1:07 PM, CR k...@earthlink.netmailto:k...@earthlink.net wrote: On 10/28/2013 1247, John Cotman wrote: Even if the EMC Directive is not applicable by virtue of the end user definition, the item looks as if it could well be in RoHS scope, RoHS also now being a CE-marking directive. If that is the case, it would at least need CE marking under that directive. John C And then we use lead-bearing solder on it. Sweet! Cortland Richmond - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to LT;emc-p...@ieee.orgmailto:emc-p...@ieee.orgGT; All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas LT;emcp...@radiusnorth.netmailto:emcp...@radiusnorth.netGT; Mike Cantwell LT;mcantw...@ieee.orgmailto:mcantw...@ieee.orgGT; For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher LT;j.bac...@ieee.orgmailto:j.bac...@ieee.orgGT; David Heald LT;dhe...@gmail.commailto:dhe...@gmail.comGT; - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.orgmailto:emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe)http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.netmailto:emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.orgmailto:mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.orgmailto:j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.commailto:dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org
Re: [PSES] EMC requirements for developer/evaluation boards
In message caey+zhng2vxxykmy11nygckz5mgxk9jenkahdj2khnewuyn...@mail.gmail.com, dated Mon, 28 Oct 2013, EMC Guy emc.guy@gmail.com writes: I've looked at that Intel webpage disclaimer, and it really looks like something invented by their legal department to get out of EMC-testing their eval boards. It isn't worded in a way I would recommend. I did tell you that getting a straight answer from anyone on this issue seems to be impossible: it's firmly in the 'too difficult' folder. Still not sure what decision to make on this one. Designing a board to pass EMC tests (yes, including ESD!) without a metal enclosure might not be easy or even possible in some cases, so we might just take our chances and do what Intel and others do: mark it CE for RoHS II, and include a big disclaimer that the board is intended for engineers who will use their own judgment to mitigate possible EMC issues You need to be very careful with the wording. If the product is extremely unlikely to produce significant emissions, say so. If it would be best to use shielded cables, put that in the product documents. It's very unlikely that regulatory authorities would be concerned about immunity issues UNLESS the product is something like a motor controller, where a lack of immunity could cause hazardous malfunction. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk If dictionaries were correct, we would only need one, because they would all give the same information. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] EMC requirements for developer/evaluation boards
In message bce6e11441ea4a8bb0660c8fb12d6...@blupr03mb034.namprd03.prod.outlook.com , dated Mon, 28 Oct 2013, Ted Eckert ted.eck...@microsoft.com writes: RoHS II (2011/65/EC) Article 2, Section 4 (j) specifically exempts ?equipment specifically designed solely for the purposes of research and development only made available on a business-to-business basis.? Anything fitting within this exemption would then not fall under the RoHS Directive and would not likely need CE marking for RoHS purposes. Intel?s development kit would appear to fit this clause. I wish the other Directives has exemptions that were as clear as the RoHS exemption. Indeed. It is possible that those words will be included in the next but one revision of the EMC Directive, but that could be 10 years away. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk If dictionaries were correct, we would only need one, because they would all give the same information. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] EMC requirements for developer/evaluation boards
Hi John, If prototype board can't get CE mark because of EMC may be it can get CE mark because of other directive. I'm not on time (probably wrong English) (I have speed a year developing new devices and now I will spend next year on CE bureaucracy - I dream to times when developing/bureaucracy was 90%/10%). I have heard that during I was busy ROHS become CE. If the prototype board are not excluded from ROHS you have the way to put CE on it and avoid entering Europe without any marking or DoC. Many prototype boards use some RF communication - than may be RTTE will help you to make DoC and put CE on it. Best Regards Piotr Galka - Original Message - From: EMC Guy To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Sent: Friday, October 25, 2013 5:47 PM Subject: Re: [PSES] EMC requirements for developer/evaluation boards Hi Brian, Your summary is exemplary. It points out exactly what I have also read in the Guide, that lead me to believe that a Developer Kit might by excluded from the EMC Directive. Particularly the End User definition. Which brings me to the second part of the problem: entering Europe without any marking or DoC whatsoever. Do you know of an established method to declare the non-applicability of CE-marking related directives, so the customs officials do not deny entry each time one of these boards is shipped to Europe. Something that would resemble FCC Form 740 for example. To John Woodgate: Thanks for the lead on Farnell, I have asked them the question, I'll post their answer if I ever get one. John On Fri, Oct 25, 2013 at 10:25 AM, Kunde, Brian brian_ku...@lecotc.com wrote: The Guide for the EMC Directive may be somewhat helpful. As it is sold, do you feel this type of product is really an Apparatus? It has no function as sold. Don't you have to incorporate it with other Components to make it work? Isn't it really a Component or sub-assembly incorporated with other Components or sub-assemblies to create a Prototype Apparatus not intended to be marketed? Can you classify it as a Component or Sub-Assembly which is NOT Intended for Incorporation into an Apparatus??? Referring to the Guide for the EMC Directive 2004/108/EC (8th February 2010), look at the Flow Charts starting on page 10; then go to Flow-Chart 2 on page 16. A Component or Sub-Assembly NOT Intended for Incorporation into an Apparatus would be Excluded from the EMC Directive. An Apparatus must also be intended for the End User. Though in this case, the End User would be an Engineer with knowledge of Electronics which would most likely include at least some knowledge of EMC. On page 17 of the guide where it describes what an End User is, see the text that says, Generally an end-user is deemed to have no qualifications in the field of electromagnetic compatibility. Products not intended for the End User is Excluded from the EMC Directive. In the scope of the EMC Directive, it says, When compliant with the provisions of the EMC Directive, equipment may be placed on the market and/ or put into service in the Community territory, freely moved and operated as designed and intended in the expected electromagnetic environment. So what is the expected electromagnetic environment for a product like this? It is intended to be used Temporarily in an engineering lab or Research and Development lab. What is the Expected EMC Environment of such an area where prototype electronic devices without any EMC testing is commonly operated for long periods of time? Though I cannot find any text that specifically excludes prototype electronic devices operating in an RD environment, it is kind of a no brainer. Hope this is somewhat helpful. Brian -Original Message- From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk] Sent: Friday, October 25, 2013 6:22 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] EMC requirements for developer/evaluation boards In message caey+zhmv+erfxd--dvutjklyva7wbr1dtjdkjxfqyj6m5lg...@mail.gmail.com, dated Fri, 25 Oct 2013, EMC Guy emc.guy@gmail.com writes: . My literature research did not come up with anything helpful, especially for Europe As I explained, you will not find anything explicit about this issue. Wherever you are, you can ask Farnell, but the answers will be Europe-oriented. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk If dictionaries were correct, we would only need one, because they would all give the same information. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web
Re: [PSES] EMC requirements for developer/evaluation boards
Hi Gert, The boards you mention are supposed to comply with the requirements. and probably are. How do you expect them to pass ESD test ? The rationale (in my opinion) is to select any point where (during normal use) ESD can probably happen and have any effect. If the board has not case, but is intended to be installed in some case (like PC extension boards) then during normal use ESD can attack only the case and such board should be tested installed. If the board is expected to be used without the case then ESD can attack any point accessible for human fingers. Best Regards Piotr Galka - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] EMC requirements for developer/evaluation boards
Hi John, They are not exempt. The EMC directive in the EC is valid, for each and every single device put on the market, or put into service. General public has nothing to do with that. The boards you mention are supposed to comply with the requirements. and probably are. Someone else will possible explain the US position. BTW: telling a bit more about your engagement with EMC would give you better answers. Regards, Ing. Gert Gremmen, BSc g.grem...@cetest.nl mailto:g.grem...@cetest.nl www.cetest.nl Kiotoweg 363 3047 BG Rotterdam T 31(0)104152426 F 31(0)104154953 Before printing, think about the environment. Van: EMC Guy [mailto:emc.guy@gmail.com] Verzonden: Thursday, October 24, 2013 10:22 PM Aan: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Onderwerp: [PSES] EMC requirements for developer/evaluation boards Dear Group, Big chip makers like Texas Instruments and others sell Eval boards to let developers test out a chip before deciding if they want to include it in their design. These boards are usually not encased in a metal box, and are meant to be used naked on a workbench with often many, many cables attached to them. I would like to know the EMC requirements for, let's say the US and Europe (FCC and CE), on this type of equipment not intended for sale to the general public. If these products (they are sold, not given away) are exempt, what is the method to get through customs without any EMC labeling on the device or packaging? Thanks for your comments and ideas. John - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] EMC requirements for developer/evaluation boards
In message caey+zho7p8ud3cpwftnkrbzvembc0fgrfclkaqrcoz4pdh2...@mail.gmail.com, dated Thu, 24 Oct 2013, EMC Guy emc.guy@gmail.com writes: I would like to know the EMC requirements for, let's say the US and Europe (FCC and CE), on this type of equipment not intended for sale to the general public. If these products (they are sold, not given away) are exempt, what is the method to get through customs without any EMC labeling on the device or packaging? As far as I know, this question was posed to the European authorities a long time ago but never answered fully. If you are in Europe, I recommend seeking advice from the distributor Farnell, which will not sell anything that does not conform, but does sell evaluation boards with no CE mark and no DoC. In practice, the number of these sold is very small, they are used in a technical environment where there are many other sources of emission and, because they are low power, the chance of a strong emission is very small. The Guide to the EMC Directive includes: Commercial equipment which is modified by and for the use of radio amateurs and kits of components to be assembled by radio amateurs are not regarded as commercially available, and are therefore outside the scope of both the EMC and RTTE Directives. It seems unreasonable to exempt that sort of stuff but not the same sort of stuff used by professionals (which may also be radio amateurs) in what is very likely an environment under better EMC control. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk If dictionaries were correct, we would only need one, because they would all give the same information. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] EMC requirements for developer/evaluation boards
Hello again Group, To those who asked more details about me, let's just say that I've been involved with real product testing to CE, FCC, VCCI, ACMA, KCC (MSIP) and others for more than 15 years. I am located neither in the US, neither in Europe. After having seeing quite a lot of those eval boards and eval kits being sold without any marking whatsoever, I had the opportunity to run some of them in a test chamber and found most of them to be failing like crazy (although one of them passed class B limits using apparent magic with all the cables that were attached). Now, I may have to deal with the export of a new eval board in the near future, and want to be sure to be doing the right thing. My literature research did not come up with anything helpful, especially for Europe. I do not want to tint this conversation with my own opinion, so it's why I am not saying much yet. Again, your comments and input are greatly appreciated. John On Fri, Oct 25, 2013 at 4:21 AM, ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen g.grem...@cetest.nl wrote: Hi John, ** ** They are not exempt. The EMC directive in the EC is valid, for each and every single device put on the market, or put into service. General public has nothing to do with that. The boards you mention are supposed to comply with the requirements. and probably are. ** ** ** ** Someone else will possible explain the US position. ** ** BTW: telling a bit more about your engagement with EMC would give you better answers. ** ** Regards, Ing. Gert Gremmen, BSc ** ** ** ** ** ** *g.grem...@cetest.nl* *www.cetest.nl* *Kiotoweg 363*** *3047 BG Rotterdam* *T 31(0)104152426 F 31(0)104154953* * * * **Before printing, think about the environment.* ** ** ** ** *Van:* EMC Guy [mailto:emc.guy@gmail.com] *Verzonden:* Thursday, October 24, 2013 10:22 PM *Aan:* EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG *Onderwerp:* [PSES] EMC requirements for developer/evaluation boards ** ** Dear Group, Big chip makers like Texas Instruments and others sell Eval boards to let developers test out a chip before deciding if they want to include it in their design. These boards are usually not encased in a metal box, and are meant to be used naked on a workbench with often many, many cables attached to them. I would like to know the EMC requirements for, let's say the US and Europe (FCC and CE), on this type of equipment not intended for sale to the general public. If these products (they are sold, not given away) are exempt, what is the method to get through customs without any EMC labeling on the device or packaging? Thanks for your comments and ideas. John - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] EMC requirements for developer/evaluation boards
In message caey+zhmv+erfxd--dvutjklyva7wbr1dtjdkjxfqyj6m5lg...@mail.gmail.com, dated Fri, 25 Oct 2013, EMC Guy emc.guy@gmail.com writes: . My literature research did not come up with anything helpful, especially for Europe As I explained, you will not find anything explicit about this issue. Wherever you are, you can ask Farnell, but the answers will be Europe-oriented. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk If dictionaries were correct, we would only need one, because they would all give the same information. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] EMC requirements for developer/evaluation boards
The Guide for the EMC Directive may be somewhat helpful. As it is sold, do you feel this type of product is really an Apparatus? It has no function as sold. Don't you have to incorporate it with other Components to make it work? Isn't it really a Component or sub-assembly incorporated with other Components or sub-assemblies to create a Prototype Apparatus not intended to be marketed? Can you classify it as a Component or Sub-Assembly which is NOT Intended for Incorporation into an Apparatus??? Referring to the Guide for the EMC Directive 2004/108/EC (8th February 2010), look at the Flow Charts starting on page 10; then go to Flow-Chart 2 on page 16. A Component or Sub-Assembly NOT Intended for Incorporation into an Apparatus would be Excluded from the EMC Directive. An Apparatus must also be intended for the End User. Though in this case, the End User would be an Engineer with knowledge of Electronics which would most likely include at least some knowledge of EMC. On page 17 of the guide where it describes what an End User is, see the text that says, Generally an end-user is deemed to have no qualifications in the field of electromagnetic compatibility. Products not intended for the End User is Excluded from the EMC Directive. In the scope of the EMC Directive, it says, When compliant with the provisions of the EMC Directive, equipment may be placed on the market and/ or put into service in the Community territory, freely moved and operated as designed and intended in the expected electromagnetic environment. So what is the expected electromagnetic environment for a product like this? It is intended to be used Temporarily in an engineering lab or Research and Development lab. What is the Expected EMC Environment of such an area where prototype electronic devices without any EMC testing is commonly operated for long periods of time? Though I cannot find any text that specifically excludes prototype electronic devices operating in an RD environment, it is kind of a no brainer. Hope this is somewhat helpful. Brian -Original Message- From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk] Sent: Friday, October 25, 2013 6:22 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] EMC requirements for developer/evaluation boards In message caey+zhmv+erfxd--dvutjklyva7wbr1dtjdkjxfqyj6m5lg...@mail.gmail.com, dated Fri, 25 Oct 2013, EMC Guy emc.guy@gmail.com writes: . My literature research did not come up with anything helpful, especially for Europe As I explained, you will not find anything explicit about this issue. Wherever you are, you can ask Farnell, but the answers will be Europe-oriented. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk If dictionaries were correct, we would only need one, because they would all give the same information. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] EMC requirements for developer/evaluation boards
Hi Brian, Your summary is exemplary. It points out exactly what I have also read in the Guide, that lead me to believe that a Developer Kit might by excluded from the EMC Directive. Particularly the End User definition. Which brings me to the second part of the problem: entering Europe without any marking or DoC whatsoever. Do you know of an established method to declare the non-applicability of CE-marking related directives, so the customs officials do not deny entry each time one of these boards is shipped to Europe. Something that would resemble FCC Form 740 for example. To John Woodgate: Thanks for the lead on Farnell, I have asked them the question, I'll post their answer if I ever get one. John On Fri, Oct 25, 2013 at 10:25 AM, Kunde, Brian brian_ku...@lecotc.comwrote: The Guide for the EMC Directive may be somewhat helpful. As it is sold, do you feel this type of product is really an Apparatus? It has no function as sold. Don't you have to incorporate it with other Components to make it work? Isn't it really a Component or sub-assembly incorporated with other Components or sub-assemblies to create a Prototype Apparatus not intended to be marketed? Can you classify it as a Component or Sub-Assembly which is NOT Intended for Incorporation into an Apparatus??? Referring to the Guide for the EMC Directive 2004/108/EC (8th February 2010), look at the Flow Charts starting on page 10; then go to Flow-Chart 2 on page 16. A Component or Sub-Assembly NOT Intended for Incorporation into an Apparatus would be Excluded from the EMC Directive. An Apparatus must also be intended for the End User. Though in this case, the End User would be an Engineer with knowledge of Electronics which would most likely include at least some knowledge of EMC. On page 17 of the guide where it describes what an End User is, see the text that says, Generally an end-user is deemed to have no qualifications in the field of electromagnetic compatibility. Products not intended for the End User is Excluded from the EMC Directive. In the scope of the EMC Directive, it says, When compliant with the provisions of the EMC Directive, equipment may be placed on the market and/ or put into service in the Community territory, freely moved and operated as designed and intended in the expected electromagnetic environment. So what is the expected electromagnetic environment for a product like this? It is intended to be used Temporarily in an engineering lab or Research and Development lab. What is the Expected EMC Environment of such an area where prototype electronic devices without any EMC testing is commonly operated for long periods of time? Though I cannot find any text that specifically excludes prototype electronic devices operating in an RD environment, it is kind of a no brainer. Hope this is somewhat helpful. Brian -Original Message- From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk] Sent: Friday, October 25, 2013 6:22 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] EMC requirements for developer/evaluation boards In message caey+zhmv+erfxd--dvutjklyva7wbr1dtjdkjxfqyj6m5lg...@mail.gmail.com, dated Fri, 25 Oct 2013, EMC Guy emc.guy@gmail.com writes: . My literature research did not come up with anything helpful, especially for Europe As I explained, you will not find anything explicit about this issue. Wherever you are, you can ask Farnell, but the answers will be Europe-oriented. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk If dictionaries were correct, we would only need one, because they would all give the same information. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you
Re: [PSES] EMC requirements for developer/evaluation boards
Read the statement at the very bottom of the linked web page. http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/intelligent-systems/evaluation-platforms/core-i7-4700eq-development-kit.html This is one approach that has been apparently successful. I believe Intel ships their eval boards all over the world. Chris -Original Message- From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com] Sent: Friday, October 25, 2013 8:25 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] EMC requirements for developer/evaluation boards The Guide for the EMC Directive may be somewhat helpful. As it is sold, do you feel this type of product is really an Apparatus? It has no function as sold. Don't you have to incorporate it with other Components to make it work? Isn't it really a Component or sub-assembly incorporated with other Components or sub-assemblies to create a Prototype Apparatus not intended to be marketed? Can you classify it as a Component or Sub-Assembly which is NOT Intended for Incorporation into an Apparatus??? Referring to the Guide for the EMC Directive 2004/108/EC (8th February 2010), look at the Flow Charts starting on page 10; then go to Flow-Chart 2 on page 16. A Component or Sub-Assembly NOT Intended for Incorporation into an Apparatus would be Excluded from the EMC Directive. An Apparatus must also be intended for the End User. Though in this case, the End User would be an Engineer with knowledge of Electronics which would most likely include at least some knowledge of EMC. On page 17 of the guide where it describes what an End User is, see the text that says, Generally an end-user is deemed to have no qualifications in the field of electromagnetic compatibility. Products not intended for the End User is Excluded from the EMC Directive. In the scope of the EMC Directive, it says, When compliant with the provisions of the EMC Directive, equipment may be placed on the market and/ or put into service in the Community territory, freely moved and operated as designed and intended in the expected electromagnetic environment. So what is the expected electromagnetic environment for a product like this? It is intended to be used Temporarily in an engineering lab or Research and Development lab. What is the Expected EMC Environment of such an area where prototype electronic devices without any EMC testing is commonly operated for long periods of time? Though I cannot find any text that specifically excludes prototype electronic devices operating in an RD environment, it is kind of a no brainer. Hope this is somewhat helpful. Brian -Original Message- From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk] Sent: Friday, October 25, 2013 6:22 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] EMC requirements for developer/evaluation boards In message caey+zhmv+erfxd--dvutjklyva7wbr1dtjdkjxfqyj6m5lg...@mail.gmail.com, dated Fri, 25 Oct 2013, EMC Guy emc.guy@gmail.com writes: . My literature research did not come up with anything helpful, especially for Europe As I explained, you will not find anything explicit about this issue. Wherever you are, you can ask Farnell, but the answers will be Europe-oriented. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk If dictionaries were correct, we would only need one, because they would all give the same information. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online
[PSES] EMC requirements for developer/evaluation boards
Dear Group, Big chip makers like Texas Instruments and others sell Eval boards to let developers test out a chip before deciding if they want to include it in their design. These boards are usually not encased in a metal box, and are meant to be used naked on a workbench with often many, many cables attached to them. I would like to know the EMC requirements for, let's say the US and Europe (FCC and CE), on this type of equipment not intended for sale to the general public. If these products (they are sold, not given away) are exempt, what is the method to get through customs without any EMC labeling on the device or packaging? Thanks for your comments and ideas. John - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
RE: CE mark on development/evaluation boards ?
I don't want to self-certify and so a competent body looks like the way to go. Dave, As I understand the EMCD, the manufacturer is the only person responsible for the conformity of the apparatus, so he (or his authorized representative in the EEA) has to issues a written EC Declaration of Conformity (and affix the CE marking). Competent bodies are to help complete the conformity assessment. John Radomski Schneider Electric This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: CE mark on development/evaluation boards ?
We are currently going through a similar process with a board designed for in-house use. We are planning to go for CE certification. We designed it to EN61010 and it passed our own safety testing and radiated/immunity and ESD. But it seems to be a gray area as to having it certified or not. I don't want to self-certify and so a competent body looks like the way to go. Dave Cuthbert Micron Technology From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk] Sent: Friday, March 07, 2003 2:24 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: CE mark on development/evaluation boards ? I read in !emc-pstc that Peter L. Tarver peter.tar...@sanmina-sci.com wrote (in nebbkemlgllmjofmoplememaeeaa.peter.tar...@sanmina-sci.com) about 'CE mark on development/evaluation boards ?' on Fri, 7 Mar 2003: I also have a current need for this information and would appreciate being copied on anything off the list. Why off-list? It seems to me that a lot of people would be interested in answers, especially if one came from one of the suppliers mentioned. [sigsnip] -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Anthony Moulds Sent: Friday, March 07, 2003 9:30 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: CE mark on development/evaluation boards ? I didn't get this message, so apologies to PT for hi-jacking his response. Hi, It's unclear (to me anyway!) if development/evaluation test board products should be tested for compliance with the EU EMC directive. I often see boards supplied without the CE mark, e.g. Xilinx, TI, Altera development boards. Are these type of products exempt from the European directive ? Well, are they shipped as functioning units? If you just get a pile of parts, and the supplier has no *detailed* idea how you are going to build them up, nor what software and peripherals you will add, the supplier CAN'T carry out any meaningful EMC tests, let alone safety, so the only **sensible** solution is to regard them as outside the scopes of the Directives. However, having 'sensible' and 'Directives' in the same sentence is something of an oxymoron, so if anyone who has a definitive answer would post, it would be very helpful. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: CE mark on development/evaluation boards ?
From: John Woodgate Sent: Friday, March 07, 2003 1:24 PM Peter L. Tarver peter.tar...@sanmina-sci.com wrote: I also have a current need for this information and would appreciate being copied on anything off the list. Why off-list? It seems to me that a lot of people would be interested in answers Many people reply off the list, directly to a poster rather than to the list as a whole. Their reasons are there own, but I wanted to be certain I received as many responses to Anthony's question as possible, since I coincidentally need the same information. Regards, Peter L. Tarver, PE Product Safety Manager Sanmina-SCI Homologation Services 2000 Ringwood Ave. San Jose, CA 95131-1749 V: 408-904-2081 F: 408-904-2095 M: 408-234-3529 peter.tar...@sanmina-sci.com This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: CE mark on development/evaluation boards ?
I also have a current need for this information and would appreciate being copied on anything off the list. Regards, Peter L. Tarver, PE Product Safety Manager Sanmina-SCI Homologation Services San Jose, CA peter.tar...@sanmina-sci.com -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Anthony Moulds Sent: Friday, March 07, 2003 9:30 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: CE mark on development/evaluation boards ? Hi, It's unclear (to me anyway!) if development/evaluation test board products should be tested for compliance with the EU EMC directive. I often see boards supplied without the CE mark, e.g. Xilinx, TI, Altera development boards. Are these type of products exempt from the European directive ? If anyone is in a position to throw light on this I would appreciate an email. Thanks. Anthony. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: CE mark on development/evaluation boards ?
I read in !emc-pstc that Peter L. Tarver peter.tar...@sanmina-sci.com wrote (in nebbkemlgllmjofmoplememaeeaa.peter.tar...@sanmina-sci.com) about 'CE mark on development/evaluation boards ?' on Fri, 7 Mar 2003: I also have a current need for this information and would appreciate being copied on anything off the list. Why off-list? It seems to me that a lot of people would be interested in answers, especially if one came from one of the suppliers mentioned. [sigsnip] -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Anthony Moulds Sent: Friday, March 07, 2003 9:30 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: CE mark on development/evaluation boards ? I didn't get this message, so apologies to PT for hi-jacking his response. Hi, It's unclear (to me anyway!) if development/evaluation test board products should be tested for compliance with the EU EMC directive. I often see boards supplied without the CE mark, e.g. Xilinx, TI, Altera development boards. Are these type of products exempt from the European directive ? Well, are they shipped as functioning units? If you just get a pile of parts, and the supplier has no *detailed* idea how you are going to build them up, nor what software and peripherals you will add, the supplier CAN'T carry out any meaningful EMC tests, let alone safety, so the only **sensible** solution is to regard them as outside the scopes of the Directives. However, having 'sensible' and 'Directives' in the same sentence is something of an oxymoron, so if anyone who has a definitive answer would post, it would be very helpful. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: CE mark on development/evaluation boards ?
Hello Anthony, I have experience of such a product (7 years ago). Compliance to the EMC Directive was achieved through the Technical Construction File route with guidance from a Competent Body. Emission testing was performed with scope probes and logic analyser looms attached as well as any interfacing cables, but no immunity testing as far as I can remember. The general approach was to assess the measured emissions, and there were some howlers too, taking account of the where and how the product was used. Nothing was done to suppress the high emissions( 60dB at 10 metres). The risk was considered acceptable based on the discrete frequency, likelihood of interference and that the emission would not be on continually (!!). It was also necessary to inform the customer that the product: should only be operated in an industrial test and development area; that it could be susceptible to ESD, mobile phones etc; if it was to cause interference then, use ferrites, move/reorientate it or the victim; etc etc. Hope this helps Vic Gibling Compliance Engineer Internet: www.e2vtechnologies.com This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
CE mark on development/evaluation boards ?
Hi, It's unclear (to me anyway!) if development/evaluation test board products should be tested for compliance with the EU EMC directive. I often see boards supplied without the CE mark, e.g. Xilinx, TI, Altera development boards. Are these type of products exempt from the European directive ? If anyone is in a position to throw light on this I would appreciate an email. Thanks. Anthony. This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: Evaluation Boards - again
Eval boards must comply with FCC requirements. Legally this does not mean they must meet Class A/B emissions levels. It is your call whether to meet Class A/B or mark the evaluation boards with the disclaimer of Section 2.803, see (e)(1)(v) under paragraph 2.803. From a customer's perspective your decision should be based on how much assistance is needed. - do you know the final mechanical design (shielding)? - will the circuitry end up in a PC? - are you sharing PWBA layout files with the customer? - does the circuitry contain a chip that cannot easily be EMI-tamed? - would customers be upset if the eval board has an FCC disclaimer? David __ Reply Separator _ Subject: Evaluation Boards - again Author: Vic Gibling SMTP:v...@virata.com at ADEMCONET List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org Date:6/14/2000 4:04 AM Hi, Thank you for your previous comments regarding Evaluation Boards. Could I raise one issue for further comment. It has been stated that Evaluation Boards must comply with FCC emc requirements CFR 47 Part 15. Another view is that Evaluation Cards are exempt as defined by section 15.103 (c) which states; -- A digital device used exclusively as industrial, commercial, or medical test equipment. -- In Europe I know one Evaluation Board manufacturer gained CE compliance through the Technical Construction File route. The product exceeded recognised industrial emc emission levels but was 'passed' by a Competent Body on the proviso that it's use was restricted to industrial development premises. Unfortunately I don't now how he dealt with this for the US. Knowing how these boards are often used - external cables to logic analysers, additional circuitry connected to expansion ports - the EU approach is reasonable Has anyone any comments to offer or suggested sources of information. Vic v...@virata.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
Evaluation Boards - again
Hi, Thank you for your previous comments regarding Evaluation Boards. Could I raise one issue for further comment. It has been stated that Evaluation Boards must comply with FCC emc requirements CFR 47 Part 15. Another view is that Evaluation Cards are exempt as defined by section 15.103 (c) which states; -- A digital device used exclusively as industrial, commercial, or medical test equipment. -- In Europe I know one Evaluation Board manufacturer gained CE compliance through the Technical Construction File route. The product exceeded recognised industrial emc emission levels but was 'passed' by a Competent Body on the proviso that it's use was restricted to industrial development premises. Unfortunately I don't now how he dealt with this for the US. Knowing how these boards are often used - external cables to logic analysers, additional circuitry connected to expansion ports - the EU approach is reasonable Has anyone any comments to offer or suggested sources of information. Vic v...@virata.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
RE: Evaluation Boards
John, For developmental boards the pertinent paragraphs of CFR47 immediately follow the text you transcribed. FCC clearly exempts boards used for development at a customer facility under paragraphs (v) and (2), however the marking requirement applies. (iv) Evaluation of product performance and determination of customer acceptability, provided such operation takes place at the manufacturer's facilities during developmental, design, or pre-production states; or (v) Evaluation of product performance and determination of customer acceptability where customer acceptability of a radio frequency device cannot be determined at the manufacturer's facilities because of size or unique capability of the device, provided the device is operated at a business commercial, industrial, scientific, or medical user's site, but not at a residential site, during the development, design or pre-production stages. A product operated under this provision shall be labeled, in a conspicuous location with the notice in paragraph (c) of this section. (2) For the purpose of paragraphs (e)(1)(v) of this section, the term 'manufacturer's facilities' includes the facilities of the party responsible for compliance with the regulations and the manufacturer's premises, as well as the facilities of other entities working under the authorization of the responsible party in connection with the development and manufacture, but not marketing, of the equipment. 'Marketing' is subject to interpretation; many companies have technical marketing departments with their own development labs. My interpretation: to demonstrate ~ in front of customers, the marketing paragraphs apply. David __ Reply Separator _ Subject: RE: Evaluation Boards Author: jestuckey SMTP:jestuc...@micron.com at ADEMCONET List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org Date:5/23/2000 10:56 AM I had forwarded this to Vic upon receiving his request last week, but viewing some on the responses that I have seen, I feel it would be appropriate to put it out for general viewing. Look at 47 CFR 2.803 Marketing of radio frequency devices prior to equipment authorization. (a) Except as provided elsewhere in this section, no person shall sell or lease, or offer for sale or lease (including advertising for sale or lease), or import, ship, or distribute for the purpose of selling or leasing or offering for sale or lease, any radio frequency device unless: (1) In the case of a device subject to certification, such device has been authorized by the Commission in accordance with the rules in this chapter and is properly identified and labeled as required by 2.925 and other relevant sections in this chapter; or (2) In the case of a device that is not required to have a grant of equipment authorization issued by the Commission, but which must comply with the specified technical standards prior to use, such device also complies with all applicable administrative (including verification of the equipment or authorization under a Declaration of Conformity, where required), technical, labeling and identification requirements specified in this chapter. (b) The provisions of paragraph (a) of this section do not prohibit conditional sales contracts between manufacturers and wholesalers or retailers where de-livery is contingent upon compliance with the applicable equipment authorization and technical requirements, nor do they prohibit agreements between such parties to produce new products, manufactured in accordance with designated specifications. (c) Notwithstanding the provisions of paragraphs (a), (b), (d) and (f) of this section, a radio frequency device may be advertised or displayed, e.g., at a trade show or exhibition, prior to equipment authorization or, for devices not subject to the equipment authorization requirements, prior to a determination of compliance with the applicable technical requirements provided that the advertising contains, and the display is accompanied by, a conspicuous notice worded as follows: This device has not been authorized as required by the rules of the Federal Communications Commission. This device is not, and may not be, offered for sale or lease, or sold or leased, until authorization is obtained. (1) If the product being displayed is a prototype of a product that has been properly authorized and the prototype, itself, is not authorized due to differences between the prototype and the authorized product, the following disclaimer notice may be used in lieu of the notice stated in paragraph (c) introductory text of this section: Prototype. Not for sale. (2) Except as provided elsewhere in this chapter, devices displayed under the provisions of paragraphs (c) introductory
RE: Evaluation Boards
jestuc...@micron.com -Original Message- From: Vic Gibling [mailto:v...@virata.com] Sent: Monday, May 22, 2000 09:35 To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Evaluation Boards Hi All As a chip manufacturer we provide Evaluation Boards to licencees for product development. I would appreciate any advice, guidance or comments regarding safety and emc issues with regard to these boards. Thank you. Vic Gibling v...@virata.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
RE: Evaluation Boards
Vic, There is no US legal obligation for EMC/safety on development boards so long as they are offered for sale. If a system containing the board is offered for sale, then the system must pass EMI requirements any market-imposed safety requirements (e.g. UL1950). If the customer usually incorporates the development board circuitry into a larger PWBA, app. notes will prevent frantic calls at the end of the development cycle about not passing EMC and safety. EMC If the development board fails applicable requirements, you should provide an app. note explaining how to meet the requirements. SAFETY Any special markings, warnings, telco restrictions, etc. should be explained in an app. note. David __ Reply Separator _ Subject: Evaluation Boards Author: Vic Gibling SMTP:v...@virata.com at ADEMCONET List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org Date:5/22/2000 11:34 AM Hi All As a chip manufacturer we provide Evaluation Boards to licencees for product development. I would appreciate any advice, guidance or comments regarding safety and emc issues with regard to these boards. Thank you. Vic Gibling v...@virata.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
RE: Evaluation Boards
Vic, I am not sure whether you are providing a product or a service. Agencies control products;-- I am not aware that they are controlling services in the ITE product category. However, assuming that you want to perform due diligence with respect to what you are providing to your customers, I believe the question should be asked,-- how are your customers using these Evaluation Boards ?Are these boards just a convenient place to mount your chips?Is there any circuitry on these boards that enables your customers to run some tests? And if there is such circuitry, what would be the test platform? Assuming that the test platform is either a PC or some test and measurement equipment, and your circuitry is designed for that specific platform, and you want to encourage your customers to buy your chips rather than someone else's because they are so good and, most important, they meet the applicable EMC limits and safety requirements, then- * you test your Evaluation Boards in that platform to the appropriate standards. However, I am not sure that legally you are required to do all of the above. I hope that someone else can shed some better wisdom on this very interesting subject. Tania Grant, tgr...@lucent.com mailto:tgr...@lucent.com Lucent Technologies, Intelligent Network Unit Messaging Solutions Group -- From: Vic Gibling [SMTP:v...@virata.com] Sent: Monday, May 22, 2000 8:35 AM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Evaluation Boards Hi All As a chip manufacturer we provide Evaluation Boards to licencees for product development. I would appreciate any advice, guidance or comments regarding safety and emc issues with regard to these boards. Thank you. Vic Gibling v...@virata.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
Evaluation Boards
Hi All As a chip manufacturer we provide Evaluation Boards to licencees for product development. I would appreciate any advice, guidance or comments regarding safety and emc issues with regard to these boards. Thank you. Vic Gibling v...@virata.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Jim Bacher: jim_bac...@mail.monarch.com Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org
