RE: definition of manufacturer
*pymail error code parse 0AE Double woot points for Mr Crane - a response with actual code text. You are the engineer/man... Brian From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org]On Behalf Of lauren_cr...@amat.com Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 9:21 AM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: definition of manufacturer A recent Council Decision which is part of the new CE framework triad gives some insight on the latest expectations for distributors. CE Framework Triad = Council Decision 768/2008/EC and regulations 764765/2008/EC Some excerpts. Recital 23 The distributor makes a product available on the market after it has been placed on the market by the manufacturer or the importer and must act with due care to ensure that its handling of the product does not adversely affect the compliance of the product. Both importers and distributors are expected to act with due care in relation to the requirements applicable when placing or making products available on the market. Recital 27 Distributors and importers, being close to the market place, should be involved in market surveillance tasks carried out by national authorities, and should be prepared to participate actively, providing the competent authorities with all necessary information relating to the product concerned. ‘distributor’ shall mean any natural or legal person in the supply chain, other than the manufacturer or the importer, who makes a product available on the market; = Annex I contains model language for future harmonized product legislation == From Article R2 manufacturer obligations When deemed appropriate with regard to the risks presented by a product, manufacturers shall, to protect the health and safety of consumers, carry out sample testing of marketed products, investigate, and, if necessary, keep a register of complaints, of non-conforming products and product recalls, and shall keep distributors informed of any such monitoring. Article R5 Obligations of Distributors 1. When making a product available on the market distributors shall act with due care in relation to the requirements applicable. 2. Before making a product available on the market distributors shall verify that the product bears the required conformity marking or markings, that it is accompanied by the required documents and by instructions and safety information in a language which can be easily understood by consumers and other end-users in the Member State in which the product is to be made available on the market, and that the manufacturer and the importer have complied with the requirements set out in Article [R2(5) and (6)] and Article [R4(3)]. Where a distributor considers or has reason to believe that a product is not in conformity with … [reference to the relevant part of the legislation], he shall not make the product available on the market until it has been brought into conformity. Furthermore, where the product presents a risk, the distributor shall inform the manufacturer or the importer to that effect as well as the market surveillance authorities. 3. Distributors shall ensure that, while a product is under their responsibility, storage or transport conditions do not jeopardise its compliance with the requirements set out in ... [reference to the relevant part of the legislation]. 4. Distributors who consider or have reason to believe that a product which they have made available on the market is not in conformity with the Community harmonisation legislation applicable shall make sure that the corrective measures necessary to bring that product into conformity, to withdraw it or recall it, if appropriate, are taken. Furthermore, where the product presents a risk, distributors shall immediately inform the competent national authorities of the Member States in which they made the product available to that effect, giving details, in particular, of the non-compliance and of any corrective measures taken. 5. Distributors shall, further to a reasoned request from a competent national authority, provide it with all the information and documentation necessary to demonstrate the conformity of a product. They shall cooperate with that authority, at its request, on any action taken to eliminate the risks posed by products which they have made available on the market. Regards, Lauren Crane Applied Materials america - europe - asia Corporate Product EHS - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee
RE: definition of manufacturer
A recent Council Decision which is part of the new CE framework triad gives some insight on the latest expectations for distributors. CE Framework Triad = Council Decision 768/2008/EC and regulations 764765/2008/EC Some excerpts. Recital 23 The distributor makes a product available on the market after it has been placed on the market by the manufacturer or the importer and must act with due care to ensure that its handling of the product does not adversely affect the compliance of the product. Both importers and distributors are expected to act with due care in relation to the requirements applicable when placing or making products available on the market. Recital 27 Distributors and importers, being close to the market place, should be involved in market surveillance tasks carried out by national authorities, and should be prepared to participate actively, providing the competent authorities with all necessary information relating to the product concerned. ‘distributor’ shall mean any natural or legal person in the supply chain, other than the manufacturer or the importer, who makes a product available on the market; = Annex I contains model language for future harmonized product legislation == From Article R2 manufacturer obligations When deemed appropriate with regard to the risks presented by a product, manufacturers shall, to protect the health and safety of consumers, carry out sample testing of marketed products, investigate, and, if necessary, keep a register of complaints, of non-conforming products and product recalls, and shall keep distributors informed of any such monitoring. Article R5 Obligations of Distributors 1. When making a product available on the market distributors shall act with due care in relation to the requirements applicable. 2. Before making a product available on the market distributors shall verify that the product bears the required conformity marking or markings, that it is accompanied by the required documents and by instructions and safety information in a language which can be easily understood by consumers and other end-users in the Member State in which the product is to be made available on the market, and that the manufacturer and the importer have complied with the requirements set out in Article [R2(5) and (6)] and Article [R4(3)]. Where a distributor considers or has reason to believe that a product is not in conformity with … [reference to the relevant part of the legislation], he shall not make the product available on the market until it has been brought into conformity. Furthermore, where the product presents a risk, the distributor shall inform the manufacturer or the importer to that effect as well as the market surveillance authorities. 3. Distributors shall ensure that, while a product is under their responsibility, storage or transport conditions do not jeopardise its compliance with the requirements set out in ... [reference to the relevant part of the legislation]. 4. Distributors who consider or have reason to believe that a product which they have made available on the market is not in conformity with the Community harmonisation legislation applicable shall make sure that the corrective measures necessary to bring that product into conformity, to withdraw it or recall it, if appropriate, are taken. Furthermore, where the product presents a risk, distributors shall immediately inform the competent national authorities of the Member States in which they made the product available to that effect, giving details, in particular, of the non-compliance and of any corrective measures taken. 5. Distributors shall, further to a reasoned request from a competent national authority, provide it with all the information and documentation necessary to demonstrate the conformity of a product. They shall cooperate with that authority, at its request, on any action taken to eliminate the risks posed by products which they have made available on the market. Regards, Lauren Crane Applied Materials america - europe - asia Corporate Product EHS www.amat.com lauren crane (mr.) product regulatory analyst (t) +1.512.272.6540 lauren_cr...@amat.com - external use - Save paper and trees! Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
RE: definition of manufacturer
From the General Information of the EMC DIRECTIVE 2004/108/EC, requirements for placing equipment on the market: ... manufacturer shall mean any natural or legal person who manufactures a product or has a product designed or manufactured, and markets that product under his name or trademark... Best Regards, John McInturff, Gary gary.mcintu...@esterline.com Sent by: emc-p...@ieee.org 04/28/2010 10:29 AM To rehel...@mmm.com, EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG cc Subject RE: [PSES] definition of manufacturer I think John is correct – just the “distributor” providing that the new entity didn’t change the product. The manufacturer is the designer and they should be completely responsible for all of the technical aspects of the product: performance, safety and EMC compliance. They are the only ones to be able to change all of those parameters. The distributor should have a handy trail back to the designer, but shouldn’t have to retest everything to confirm. I have more than once asked for and obtained a copy of the test reports if and when I had a deep concern about something that we were purchasing. (It can take a while to find the folks that have the data inside any company but eventually it is obtainable) A lot of companies sell products to many different distributors I can’t image that any regulatory agency would demand that every distributor of every product repeat all of the tests and incur the time and costs associated with that – especially since the governments don’t make any money, directly, off the tests so they are less “incentivetised” to do so. Before self certification for ITE equipment the US’s FCC had a control number on the product which identified the actual manufacturer regardless of what the shipping box said. It was coded so that you couldn’t immediately tell who it was, but the products we built for HP carried only the HP name, but if there was a problem the FCC could come directly to us. Further we Gary McInturff 208 635 8306 From: Robert Heller [mailto:rehel...@mmm.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 2:47 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] definition of manufacturer Isn't the company that places it on the Market responsible? Bob Heller 3M EMC Laboratory, 76-1-01 St. Paul, MN 55107-1208 Tel: 651- 778-6336 Fax: 651-778-6252 = emc-p...@ieee.org wrote on 04/27/2010 03:38:05 PM: [image removed] Re: definition of manufacturer John M Woodgate to: emc-pstc 04/27/2010 05:35 PM Sent by: emc-p...@ieee.org In message 213049.95688...@web36202.mail.mud.yahoo.com, gdstuyvenb...@yahoo.com gdstuyvenb...@yahoo.com writes Suppose company A manufactures, assembles, tests and CE marks a product for available sale. As a courtesy to customers, Company B makes the product available by giving it a company B part number for the customer to order as an accessory to it's main product line. Company B does not brand label the accessory, but rather leaves all Company A markings intact. Who is responsible for meeting the requirements of the EMCD, company A or B? Company B is just acting as a distributor of a product declared compliant by Company A. Of course, Company B might think it prudent to verify the claim of compliance, but has no legal responsibility UNLESS Company A is outside the EU while Company B is inside it. In that case, Company B bears joint responsibility. -- This is my travelling signature, adding no superfluous mass. John M Woodgate - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@socal.rr.com Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org
Re: definition of manufacturer
John, You said UNLESS Company A is outside the EU while Company B is inside it. In that case, Company B bears joint responsibility. I know there is some vairability among directives and regulations, but the trend seems to be to assign full manufacturer responsibility to importers so Company B has full responsibility. In fact, I think Company B can only be a gray marketer or an AR, they cannot just be a distributor if they are importing, because most legislation equates importing with manufacturing and this would trump any concept of distributor. So either way Company B gets all the pain and they can only pass it on (i.e. share it) to Company A via contract terms. As far as the legislation goes, Company A does not exist because it is not incorporated in the EU. Have I missed something? Regards, Lauren Crane Applied Materials america - europe - asia Corporate Product EHS www.amat.com lauren crane (mr.) product regulatory analyst (t) +1.512.272.6540 lauren_cr...@amat.com The content of this message is Applied Materials Confidential. If you are not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you. Save paper and trees! Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. John M Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk Sent by: emc-p...@ieee.org 04/27/2010 03:38 PM To emc-p...@ieee.org cc Subject Re: definition of manufacturer In message 213049.95688...@web36202.mail.mud.yahoo.com, gdstuyvenb...@yahoo.com gdstuyvenb...@yahoo.com writes Suppose company A manufactures, assembles, tests and CE marks a product for available sale. As a courtesy to customers, Company B makes the product available by giving it a company B part number for the customer to order as an accessory to it's main product line. Company B does not brand label the accessory, but rather leaves all Company A markings intact. Who is responsible for meeting the requirements of the EMCD, company A or B? Company B is just acting as a distributor of a product declared compliant by Company A. Of course, Company B might think it prudent to verify the claim of compliance, but has no legal responsibility UNLESS Company A is outside the EU while Company B is inside it. In that case, Company B bears joint responsibility. -- This is my travelling signature, adding no superfluous mass. John M Woodgate - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@socal.rr.com Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@socal.rr.com Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com
Re: definition of manufacturer
Isn't the company that places it on the Market responsible? Bob Heller 3M EMC Laboratory, 76-1-01 St. Paul, MN 55107-1208 Tel: 651- 778-6336 Fax: 651-778-6252 = emc-p...@ieee.org wrote on 04/27/2010 03:38:05 PM: [image removed] Re: definition of manufacturer John M Woodgate to: emc-pstc 04/27/2010 05:35 PM Sent by: emc-p...@ieee.org In message 213049.95688...@web36202.mail.mud.yahoo.com, gdstuyvenb...@yahoo.com gdstuyvenb...@yahoo.com writes Suppose company A manufactures, assembles, tests and CE marks a product for available sale. As a courtesy to customers, Company B makes the product available by giving it a company B part number for the customer to order as an accessory to it's main product line. Company B does not brand label the accessory, but rather leaves all Company A markings intact. Who is responsible for meeting the requirements of the EMCD, company A or B? Company B is just acting as a distributor of a product declared compliant by Company A. Of course, Company B might think it prudent to verify the claim of compliance, but has no legal responsibility UNLESS Company A is outside the EU while Company B is inside it. In that case, Company B bears joint responsibility. -- This is my travelling signature, adding no superfluous mass. John M Woodgate - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@socal.rr.com Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@socal.rr.com Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com
Re: definition of manufacturer
In message 213049.95688...@web36202.mail.mud.yahoo.com, gdstuyvenb...@yahoo.com gdstuyvenb...@yahoo.com writes Suppose company A manufactures, assembles, tests and CE marks a product for available sale. As a courtesy to customers, Company B makes the product available by giving it a company B part number for the customer to order as an accessory to it's main product line. Company B does not brand label the accessory, but rather leaves all Company A markings intact. Who is responsible for meeting the requirements of the EMCD, company A or B? Company B is just acting as a distributor of a product declared compliant by Company A. Of course, Company B might think it prudent to verify the claim of compliance, but has no legal responsibility UNLESS Company A is outside the EU while Company B is inside it. In that case, Company B bears joint responsibility. -- This is my travelling signature, adding no superfluous mass. John M Woodgate - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@socal.rr.com Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
RE: definition of manufacturer
Who is responsible for meeting the requirements of the EMCD, company A or B? Those who declare compliance with all relevant requirements by issuing an EC Declaration of Conformity. Best Regards, John Brian O'Connell oconne...@tamuracorp.com Sent by: emc-p...@ieee.org 04/27/2010 02:01 PM To emc-p...@ieee.org cc Subject RE: definition of manufacturer My experience with importing components and end products to the EU is BOTH - especially if both are external to the EU and/or if company 'B' has applied the CE mark to its end-use box. And if others say no to the above - give me a good reference that can be inserted in the left nostril of various NBs. Brian From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org]On Behalf Of gdstuyvenb...@yahoo.com Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2010 10:48 AM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: definition of manufacturer Within the scope of the EMCD, ‘manufacturer’ has been defined as any natural or legal person who manufactures a product or has a product designed or manufactured, and markets that product under his name or trademark. Suppose company A manufactures, assembles, tests and CE marks a product for available sale. As a courtesy to customers, Company B makes the product available by giving it a company B part number for the customer to order as an accessory to it's main product line. Company B does not brand label the accessory, but rather leaves all Company A markings intact. Who is responsible for meeting the requirements of the EMCD, company A or B? Gary - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@socal.rr.com Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@socal.rr.com Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com
RE: definition of manufacturer
My experience with importing components and end products to the EU is BOTH - especially if both are external to the EU and/or if company 'B' has applied the CE mark to its end-use box. And if others say no to the above - give me a good reference that can be inserted in the left nostril of various NBs. Brian From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org]On Behalf Of gdstuyvenb...@yahoo.com Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2010 10:48 AM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: definition of manufacturer Within the scope of the EMCD, ‘manufacturer’ has been defined as any natural or legal person who manufactures a product or has a product designed or manufactured, and markets that product under his name or trademark. Suppose company A manufactures, assembles, tests and CE marks a product for available sale. As a courtesy to customers, Company B makes the product available by giving it a company B part number for the customer to order as an accessory to it's main product line. Company B does not brand label the accessory, but rather leaves all Company A markings intact. Who is responsible for meeting the requirements of the EMCD, company A or B? Gary - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@socal.rr.com Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
RE: Definition of system integrator
Thank you. Best Regards Charles Grasso Compliance Engineer Echostar Communications Corp. Tel: 303-706-5467 Fax: 303-799-6222 Cell: 303-204-2974 Pager/Short Message: 3032042...@vtext.com Email: charles.gra...@echostar.com From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk] Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 1:14 AM To: Grasso, Charles Cc: emc-p...@ieee.org; monrad.mon...@sun.com Subject: Re: Definition of system integrator In message f38c1e8a75404347a126608a8f48af5508fcc...@mer2-excha2.echostar.com, dated Sun, 13 Jan 2008, Grasso, Charles charles.gra...@echostar.com writes: Thank you John and Monrad. I wonder though how this clinical definition applies in the PC marketplace? Who is the manufacturer when an external USB drive is purchased (by a consumer) and then attached to - say - a laptop BTW in this case we have two CE marked devices! The EMC Directive doesn't apply to collections of equipment set up by a private individual. Any interference that results is controlled, in Europe, by the vestiges of national legislation that preceded the implementation of the Directive, or new legislation with the same effect. How does the manufacturer of the laptop prove that his product complies with the EMC Directive with the plethora of peripherals available to the everyday consumer? He doesn't have to, only with the real or simulated peripherals described in the relevant EMC standards. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk For very important information, please turn over. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: Definition of system integrator
In message f38c1e8a75404347a126608a8f48af5508fcc...@mer2-excha2.echostar.com, dated Sun, 13 Jan 2008, Grasso, Charles charles.gra...@echostar.com writes: Thank you John and Monrad. I wonder though how this clinical definition applies in the PC marketplace? Who is the manufacturer when an external USB drive is purchased (by a consumer) and then attached to - say - a laptop BTW in this case we have two CE marked devices! The EMC Directive doesn't apply to collections of equipment set up by a private individual. Any interference that results is controlled, in Europe, by the vestiges of national legislation that preceded the implementation of the Directive, or new legislation with the same effect. How does the manufacturer of the laptop prove that his product complies with the EMC Directive with the plethora of peripherals available to the everyday consumer? He doesn't have to, only with the real or simulated peripherals described in the relevant EMC standards. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk For very important information, please turn over. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: Definition of system integrator
Hi Chuck, The EMC Directive applies to individually marketed installations, systems, apparati or components, not those coincidentally assembled by the end user. The scenario you've described below should be completely legal since both were likely marketed separately from possibly different manufacturers. Your scenario is no different, except by scale, than a home computer network or a large corporate computer network. And to answer your second question, the manufacturer cannot possibly and logically test every possible combination of peripherals that the laptop might connect to. The manufacturer can only exercise his due diligence by exercising all the laptop ports during EMC testing using a defined set of peripheral devices. Please note that the manufacturer is responsible only for compliance of its own products. If a system integrator markets a configured installation/system/appliance using components that are individually CE marked, then he is responsible for the compliance of that particular marketedinstallation/system/appliance. Comments? Best regards, Ron Pickard RPQ Consulting 7372 West Luke Avenue Glendale, AZ 85303 +623.512-3451 tel, +623.848-9033 fax rpick...@rpqconsulting.com www.rpqconsulting.com http://www.rpqconsulting.com/ _ From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Grasso, Charles Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 4:28 PM To: John Woodgate; emc-p...@ieee.org; monrad.mon...@sun.com Subject: RE: Definition of system integrator Thank you John and Monrad. I wonder though how this clinical definition applies in the PC marketplace? Who is the manufacturer when an external USB drive is purchased (by a consumer) and then attached to - say - a laptop BTW in this case we have two CE marked devices! How does the manufacturer of the laptop prove that his product complies with the EMC Directive with the plethora of peripherals available to the everyday consumer? Chas From: emc-p...@ieee.org on behalf of John Woodgate Sent: Sat 1/12/2008 1:49 AM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Re: Definition of system integrator In message 4787e8ae.6020...@sun.com, dated Fri, 11 Jan 2008, Monrad Monsen monrad.mon...@sun.com writes: The same is true for Europe. The Guide for the EMC Directive 2004/108/EC (22nd March 2007) does not use the term system integrator, but the guide does describe the system integrator role and states that for the purpose of the EMC Directive that entity that combines/designs/puts together the system becomes the manufacturer. As manufacturer, the entity (system integrator) becomes responsible for ensuring that the system complies with the requirements for an apparatus as given in the EMC Directive. The guide states on page 19 in section 1.2.2 the following: - - - - - - 1.2.2 Combination of finished appliances (systems) A combination of several finished appliances which is made commercially available as a single functional unit intended for the end-user is considered to be apparatus. Such a system, within the sense of the EMC Directive, is combined, and/or designed and/or put together by the same person (the manufacturer) and is intended to be placed on the market for distribution as a single functional unit for end-use and to be installed and operated together to perform a specific task. All provisions of the EMC Directive, as defined for apparatus, apply to the combination as a whole. It should be noted that combining two or more CE finished appliances does not automatically produce a compliant system e.g.: a combination of CE marked Programmable Logic Controllers and motor drives may fail to meet the protection requirements. - - - - - - The guide has a footnote that points to the base EMC Directive 2004/108/EC paragraph 2(1)(b) which has the simple apparatus definition: = = = = = (b) 'apparatus' means any finished appliance or combination thereof made commercially available as a single functional unit, intended for the end user and liable to generate electromagnetic disturbance, or the performance of which is liable to be affected by such disturbance. = = = = = Hope this helps. Some unofficial 'interpretation' may assist. The words 'made commercially available as a single functional unit intended for the end-user' can be interpreted as 'invoiced at a single inclusive price'. 'Commercially available' may be interpreted that such a combination is not put together specially for a single customer, but is offered (e.g. in a catalogue or advertisement) to all-comers. The underlying concept is that the 'manufacturer' can assess and, if necessary, test the combination as a whole, while testing is often not economically realistic for a 'one-off' special combination. Such a special combination might be invoiced as separate items so as to emphasise its special nature. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk For very important information, please turn over. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate
RE: Definition of system integrator
Thank you John and Monrad. I wonder though how this clinical definition applies in the PC marketplace? Who is the manufacturer when an external USB drive is purchased (by a consumer) and then attached to - say - a laptop BTW in this case we have two CE marked devices! How does the manufacturer of the laptop prove that his product complies with the EMC Directive with the plethora of peripherals available to the everyday consumer? Chas From: emc-p...@ieee.org on behalf of John Woodgate Sent: Sat 1/12/2008 1:49 AM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Re: Definition of system integrator In message 4787e8ae.6020...@sun.com, dated Fri, 11 Jan 2008, Monrad Monsen monrad.mon...@sun.com writes: The same is true for Europe. The Guide for the EMC Directive 2004/108/EC (22nd March 2007) does not use the term system integrator, but the guide does describe the system integrator role and states that for the purpose of the EMC Directive that entity that combines/designs/puts together the system becomes the manufacturer. As manufacturer, the entity (system integrator) becomes responsible for ensuring that the system complies with the requirements for an apparatus as given in the EMC Directive. The guide states on page 19 in section 1.2.2 the following: - - - - - - 1.2.2 Combination of finished appliances (systems) A combination of several finished appliances which is made commercially available as a single functional unit intended for the end-user is considered to be apparatus. Such a system, within the sense of the EMC Directive, is combined, and/or designed and/or put together by the same person (the manufacturer) and is intended to be placed on the market for distribution as a single functional unit for end-use and to be installed and operated together to perform a specific task. All provisions of the EMC Directive, as defined for apparatus, apply to the combination as a whole. It should be noted that combining two or more CE finished appliances does not automatically produce a compliant system e.g.: a combination of CE marked Programmable Logic Controllers and motor drives may fail to meet the protection requirements. - - - - - - The guide has a footnote that points to the base EMC Directive 2004/108/EC paragraph 2(1)(b) which has the simple apparatus definition: = = = = = (b) 'apparatus' means any finished appliance or combination thereof made commercially available as a single functional unit, intended for the end user and liable to generate electromagnetic disturbance, or the performance of which is liable to be affected by such disturbance. = = = = = Hope this helps. Some unofficial 'interpretation' may assist. The words 'made commercially available as a single functional unit intended for the end-user' can be interpreted as 'invoiced at a single inclusive price'. 'Commercially available' may be interpreted that such a combination is not put together specially for a single customer, but is offered (e.g. in a catalogue or advertisement) to all-comers. The underlying concept is that the 'manufacturer' can assess and, if necessary, test the combination as a whole, while testing is often not economically realistic for a 'one-off' special combination. Such a special combination might be invoiced as separate items so as to emphasise its special nature. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk For very important information, please turn over. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: Definition of system integrator
In message 4787e8ae.6020...@sun.com, dated Fri, 11 Jan 2008, Monrad Monsen monrad.mon...@sun.com writes: The same is true for Europe. The Guide for the EMC Directive 2004/108/EC (22nd March 2007) does not use the term system integrator, but the guide does describe the system integrator role and states that for the purpose of the EMC Directive that entity that combines/designs/puts together the system becomes the manufacturer. As manufacturer, the entity (system integrator) becomes responsible for ensuring that the system complies with the requirements for an apparatus as given in the EMC Directive. The guide states on page 19 in section 1.2.2 the following: - - - - - - 1.2.2 Combination of finished appliances (systems) A combination of several finished appliances which is made commercially available as a single functional unit intended for the end-user is considered to be apparatus. Such a system, within the sense of the EMC Directive, is combined, and/or designed and/or put together by the same person (the manufacturer) and is intended to be placed on the market for distribution as a single functional unit for end-use and to be installed and operated together to perform a specific task. All provisions of the EMC Directive, as defined for apparatus, apply to the combination as a whole. It should be noted that combining two or more CE finished appliances does not automatically produce a compliant system e.g.: a combination of CE marked Programmable Logic Controllers and motor drives may fail to meet the protection requirements. - - - - - - The guide has a footnote that points to the base EMC Directive 2004/108/EC paragraph 2(1)(b) which has the simple apparatus definition: = = = = = (b) 'apparatus' means any finished appliance or combination thereof made commercially available as a single functional unit, intended for the end user and liable to generate electromagnetic disturbance, or the performance of which is liable to be affected by such disturbance. = = = = = Hope this helps. Some unofficial 'interpretation' may assist. The words 'made commercially available as a single functional unit intended for the end-user' can be interpreted as 'invoiced at a single inclusive price'. 'Commercially available' may be interpreted that such a combination is not put together specially for a single customer, but is offered (e.g. in a catalogue or advertisement) to all-comers. The underlying concept is that the 'manufacturer' can assess and, if necessary, test the combination as a whole, while testing is often not economically realistic for a 'one-off' special combination. Such a special combination might be invoiced as separate items so as to emphasise its special nature. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk For very important information, please turn over. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: Definition of system integrator
The same is true for Europe. The Guide for the EMC Directive 2004/108/EC (22nd March 2007) does not use the term system integrator, but the guide does describe the system integrator role and states that for the purpose of the EMC Directive that entity that combines/designs/puts together the system becomes the manufacturer. As manufacturer, the entity (system integrator) becomes responsible for ensuring that the system complies with the requirements for an apparatus as given in the EMC Directive. The guide states on page 19 in section 1.2.2 the following: - - - - - - 1.2.2 Combination of finished appliances (systems) A combination of several finished appliances which is made commercially available as a single functional unit intended for the end-user is considered to be apparatus. Such a system, within the sense of the EMC Directive, is combined, and/or designed and/or put together by the same person (the manufacturer) and is intended to be placed on the market for distribution as a single functional unit for end-use and to be installed and operated together to perform a specific task. All provisions of the EMC Directive, as defined for apparatus, apply to the combination as a whole. It should be noted that combining two or more CE finished appliances does not automatically produce a compliant system e.g.: a combination of CE marked Programmable Logic Controllers and motor drives may fail to meet the protection requirements. - - - - - - The guide has a footnote that points to the base EMC Directive 2004/108/EC paragraph 2(1)(b) which has the simple apparatus definition: = = = = = (b) 'apparatus' means any finished appliance or combination thereof made commercially available as a single functional unit, intended for the end user and liable to generate electromagnetic disturbance, or the performance of which is liable to be affected by such disturbance. = = = = = Hope this helps. Monrad L. Monsen Product Compliance Program Manager Storage Group Sun Microsystems monrad.mon...@sun.com 303.673.2438 Office Ilarina, Alvin wrote: With respect to the FCC the following may be helpful: Title 47 CFR Part 2 Subpart J http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/ ext-idx?c=ecfrsid=7ac501c6545da4aa674d 8e9ce5928a3rgn=div8view=textnode=47:1.0.1.1.3.9.217.6idno=47 § 2.909 Responsible party. If the above hyperlink does not work for you, the site may be accessed directly at the following URL: http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/ Alvin Disclaimer: The contents reflect the opinion of the author and are meant for entertainment purposes only. _ From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Grasso, Charles Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 2:46 PM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Definition of system integrator Hi there, Is there an official (FCC/EU etc) accepted definition of a system integrator in the EMC world.? Best Regards Charles Grasso Compliance Engineer Echostar Communications Corp. Tel: 303-706-5467 Fax: 303-799-6222 Cell: 303-204-2974 Pager/Short Message: 3032042...@vtext.com BLOCKED::mailto:3032042...@vtext.com Email: charles.gra...@echostar.com CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files or previous e-mail messages attached to it, may contain information that is confidential and/or legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, please DO NOT disclose the contents to another person, store or copy the information in any medium, or use any of the information contained in or attached to this transmission for any purpose. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender by reply email or at mailto:priv...@plantronics.com, and destroy the original transmission and its attachments without reading or saving in any manner. For further information about Plantronics - the Company, its products, brands, partners, please visit our website www.plantronics.com. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc- This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list,
RE: Definition of system integrator
With respect to the FCC the following may be helpful: Title 47 CFR Part 2 Subpart J § http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/tex /text-idx?c=ecfrsid=7ac501c6545da4aa67 d68e9ce5928a3rgn=div8view=textnode=47:1.0.1.1.3.9.217.6idno=47 2.909 Responsible party. If the above hyperlink does not work for you, the site may be accessed directly at the following URL: http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/ Alvin Disclaimer: The contents reflect the opinion of the author and are meant for entertainment purposes only. _ From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Grasso, Charles Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 2:46 PM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Definition of system integrator Hi there, Is there an official (FCC/EU etc) accepted definition of a system integrator in the EMC world.? Best Regards Charles Grasso Compliance Engineer Echostar Communications Corp. Tel: 303-706-5467 Fax: 303-799-6222 Cell: 303-204-2974 Pager/Short Message: 3032042...@vtext.com BLOCKED::mailto:3032042...@vtext.com Email: charles.gra...@echostar.com CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files or previous e-mail messages attached to it, may contain information that is confidential and/or legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, please DO NOT disclose the contents to another person, store or copy the information in any medium, or use any of the information contained in or attached to this transmission for any purpose. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender by reply email or at mailto:priv...@plantronics.com, and destroy the original transmission and its attachments without reading or saving in any manner. For further information about Plantronics - the Company, its products, brands, partners, please visit our website www.plantronics.com. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc- This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: Definition of Residual Current
In message de87437fe365cb458c265ea3d73b6f1d013da...@xbc-mail1.xantrex.com, dated Fri, 3 Feb 2006, Jim Eichner jim.eich...@xantrex.com writes John: Are such words of explanation allowed in an IEC standard, or do the standards have the same limitation applied to them as the IEV has? The same limitation. The IEV is largely derived from definitions in standards. Explanation can be put in a Note below the definition, but long Notes are discouraged. Often, it's better to put explanation elsewhere in the standard, maybe in an Informative Annex if it's extensive. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk 2006 is YMMVI- Your mileage may vary immoderately. John Woodgate - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: Definition of Residual Current
In message de87437fe365cb458c265ea3d73b6f1dd99...@xbc-mail1.xantrex.com, dated Fri, 3 Feb 2006, Ralph McDiarmid ralph.mcdiar...@xantrex.com writes Perhaps resultant current or net RMS current would have been better than vector sum. A vector sum implies to me, drawing the vectors and adding them graphically, or adding their real imag rectangular components. Vector summation takes phase into account, or, what is the same thing, real and imaginary components. If I recall correctly, the RMS (effective) value is also the square-root of the algebraic sum of the squares of the magnitudes of the harmonic terms. Yes, and eliminates phase information. That's why we have to put it back in to calculate: power = VIcos[phi] I understand that these RCCB devices do this sum, presumably by a resultant flux in a magnetic circuit. Now, how would a magnetic circuit calculate RMS values? (I wish it could.) -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk 2006 is YMMVI- Your mileage may vary immoderately. John Woodgate - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: Definition of Residual Current
John: Are such words of explanation allowed in an IEC standard, or do the standards have the same limitation applied to them as the IEV has? Jim Eichner, P.Eng. Compliance Engineering Manager Xantrex Technology Inc. phone: (604) 422-2546 fax: (604) 420-1591 e-mail: jim.eich...@xantrex.com web: www.xantrex.com Confidentiality Notice: This email message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of John Woodgate Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 11:35 AM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Re: Definition of Residual Current In message de87437fe365cb458c265ea3d73b6f1d013da...@xbc-mail1.xantrex.com, dated Fri, 3 Feb 2006, Jim Eichner jim.eich...@xantrex.com writes I am working on a standard for which a definition of Residual Current is needed. I don't own any other standard that defines it, and I don't subscribe to the IEC electrotechnical vocabulary (perhaps I should). At any rate, I could use some help please. 1. Does anyone have an official definition for me? Please state your source. There are several in the IEV, but see below. Some apply only to 3-phase supplies without a neutral conductor. 2. According to the standard for RCCB's, IEC 61008-1, here's the definition (translated from German to English by a colleague, so perhaps not verbatim from the English version of the standard): Residual current: Vector sum of the actual values of the currents flowing in the main circuit of an RCCB That seems like a pretty poor definition to me, as it is circular and a bit vague It's close to the IEV definition 442-05-19: r.m.s. value of the vector sum of the currents flowing through the main circuit of the residual current device But yes, your 'translator' had better not give up the day job. (;-) (I'm guessing main circuit should read mains circuit but still that could be interpreted to include the earth wire in which case it's incorrect). No, 'main circuit' excludes the earth wire. I think the definition does not need to and should not make any reference to an RCCB, because residual current exists whether or not an RCCB is used, and using RCCB in the definition just requires a definition of RCCB, leading back to a need to define what Residual Current is. I think the definition should be something like this: Residual Current: The vector sum of the currents in each phase and neutral (if applicable), OK so far, and similar to another, but less satisfactory, IEV definition, which says 'algebraic' instead of 'vector' and is thus not really correct. which if non-zero indicates that current is returning to the source via a path other than the current-carrying conductors, which therefore indicates a potential shock hazard. Such words of explanation are not permitted in an IEV definition. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk 2006 is YMMVI- Your mileage may vary immoderately. John Woodgate - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: Definition of Residual Current
Perhaps resultant current or net RMS current would have been better than vector sum. A vector sum implies to me, drawing the vectors and adding them graphically, or adding their real imag rectangular components. If I recall correctly, the RMS (effective) value is also the square-root of the algebraic sum of the squares of the magnitudes of the harmonic terms. I understand that these RCCB devices do this sum, presumably by a resultant flux in a magnetic circuit. == Ralph McDiarmid, ASc Compliance Engineering Group Xantrex Technology Inc. From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of John Woodgate Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 11:35 AM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Re: Definition of Residual Current In message de87437fe365cb458c265ea3d73b6f1d013da...@xbc-mail1.xantrex.com, dated Fri, 3 Feb 2006, Jim Eichner jim.eich...@xantrex.com writes I am working on a standard for which a definition of Residual Current is needed. I don't own any other standard that defines it, and I don't subscribe to the IEC electrotechnical vocabulary (perhaps I should). At any rate, I could use some help please. 1. Does anyone have an official definition for me? Please state your source. There are several in the IEV, but see below. Some apply only to 3-phase supplies without a neutral conductor. 2. According to the standard for RCCB's, IEC 61008-1, here's the definition (translated from German to English by a colleague, so perhaps not verbatim from the English version of the standard): Residual current: Vector sum of the actual values of the currents flowing in the main circuit of an RCCB That seems like a pretty poor definition to me, as it is circular and a bit vague It's close to the IEV definition 442-05-19: r.m.s. value of the vector sum of the currents flowing through the main circuit of the residual current device But yes, your 'translator' had better not give up the day job. (;-) (I'm guessing main circuit should read mains circuit but still that could be interpreted to include the earth wire in which case it's incorrect). No, 'main circuit' excludes the earth wire. I think the definition does not need to and should not make any reference to an RCCB, because residual current exists whether or not an RCCB is used, and using RCCB in the definition just requires a definition of RCCB, leading back to a need to define what Residual Current is. I think the definition should be something like this: Residual Current: The vector sum of the currents in each phase and neutral (if applicable), OK so far, and similar to another, but less satisfactory, IEV definition, which says 'algebraic' instead of 'vector' and is thus not really correct. which if non-zero indicates that current is returning to the source via a path other than the current-carrying conductors, which therefore indicates a potential shock hazard. Such words of explanation are not permitted in an IEV definition. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk 2006 is YMMVI- Your mileage may vary immoderately. John Woodgate - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: Definition of Residual Current
In message de87437fe365cb458c265ea3d73b6f1d013da...@xbc-mail1.xantrex.com, dated Fri, 3 Feb 2006, Jim Eichner jim.eich...@xantrex.com writes I am working on a standard for which a definition of Residual Current is needed. I don't own any other standard that defines it, and I don't subscribe to the IEC electrotechnical vocabulary (perhaps I should). At any rate, I could use some help please. 1. Does anyone have an official definition for me? Please state your source. There are several in the IEV, but see below. Some apply only to 3-phase supplies without a neutral conductor. 2. According to the standard for RCCB's, IEC 61008-1, here's the definition (translated from German to English by a colleague, so perhaps not verbatim from the English version of the standard): Residual current: Vector sum of the actual values of the currents flowing in the main circuit of an RCCB That seems like a pretty poor definition to me, as it is circular and a bit vague It's close to the IEV definition 442-05-19: r.m.s. value of the vector sum of the currents flowing through the main circuit of the residual current device But yes, your 'translator' had better not give up the day job. (;-) (I'm guessing main circuit should read mains circuit but still that could be interpreted to include the earth wire in which case it's incorrect). No, 'main circuit' excludes the earth wire. I think the definition does not need to and should not make any reference to an RCCB, because residual current exists whether or not an RCCB is used, and using RCCB in the definition just requires a definition of RCCB, leading back to a need to define what Residual Current is. I think the definition should be something like this: Residual Current: The vector sum of the currents in each phase and neutral (if applicable), OK so far, and similar to another, but less satisfactory, IEV definition, which says 'algebraic' instead of 'vector' and is thus not really correct. which if non-zero indicates that current is returning to the source via a path other than the current-carrying conductors, which therefore indicates a potential shock hazard. Such words of explanation are not permitted in an IEV definition. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk 2006 is YMMVI- Your mileage may vary immoderately. John Woodgate - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: Definition of accessible terminals
In message of3ea122b5.b0157846-on802570fc.002f039c-802570fc.002f7...@servomex.com, dated Fri, 20 Jan 2006, iun...@servomex.com writes Are terminals on the rear of equipment intended to be rack mounted considered to be 'accessible' under electrical safety standards such as EN 61010-1, or its North American equivalents? The problem with 'such as' and 'North American equivalents' is that individual standards vary in detail which may or may not be critical for your product. The best thing to do, if you can, is to put any terminals that may present a shock hazard in a connector meeting relevant safety requirements. You may find IEC 61984 helpful in this context. It establishes safety requirements for all connectors that do not have a specific safety standard of their own. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk 2006 is YMMVI- Your mileage may vary immoderately. John Woodgate - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
Re: Definition of accessible terminals
Ian, You need to consider that there are open racks, ie with covers and doors and closed racks with keylock accessible only by service personnel. Also, even if closed, you need to consider that these terminals may be interconnected to other equipment that is user accessible and out of the control of your equipment design. Best Regards, Peter iun...@servomex.com wrote: Dear Group, Are terminals on the rear of equipment intended to be rack mounted considered to be 'accessible' under electrical safety standards such as EN 61010-1, or its North American equivalents? Many thanks in anticipation of your replies. Ian Unwin Servomex * *Regist! er now at www.servomex.com/zap.html * *for an opportunity to win a great prize * *in our monthly draw. * * This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs SkyScan service. This electronic message contains information from Servomex which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information is prohibited. If you have received this electronic message in error, please notify us immediately. Activity and use of the Servomex E-mail system is monitored to secure its effective operation and for other lawful business purposes. - This message is from the IEEE Pr! oduct Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc _ Yahoo! Autos http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=38381/ ylc=X3oDMTEzcGlrdGY5BF9TAzk3MTA3MDc2BHN YwNtYWlsdGFncwRzbGsDMWF1dG9z/*http://autos.yahoo.com/index.html . Looking for a sweet ride? Get pricing, reviews, more on new and used cars. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: Definition of accessible terminals
Ian, Can the equipment only ever be used in a rack, which can be guaranteed to provide restriction of access or interlocked operation? If the answer to all of that is YES, then the terminals can be considered not accessible. If, however, the equipment could be used on the bench, or could be installed in a rack that doesn't totally exclude access or isn't interlocked, then the answer is clearly that the terminals are accessible and you will need to design accordingly. Do not forget the concept of 'foreseeable misuse'. Unless you retain total control over the equipment, then I think that the second scenario is the more likely. Best regards Neil R. Barker CEng MIEE FSEE MIEEE Manager Compliance Engineering e2v technologies (uk) ltd 106 Waterhouse Lane Chelmsford Essex CM1 2QU UK Tel: (+44) 1245 453616 Fax: (+44) 1245 453410 Mob: (+44) 7801 723735 From: iun...@servomex.com [mailto:iun...@servomex.com] Sent: 20 January 2006 08:38 To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Definition of accessible terminals Dear Group, Are terminals on the rear of equipment intended to be rack mounted considered to be 'accessible' under electrical safety standards such as EN 61010-1, or its North American equivalents? Many thanks in anticipation of your replies. Ian Unwin Servomex - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: Definition of Telecommunication port
Paolo, I agree with you that ethernet port shall be tested for Cond. emission but it is strange to see that the immunity standard CISPR24/EN55024 only requires SURGE testing on telecom ports connected to outdoor cabling while EN301489-1 makes no differences between telecom ports connected to indoor or outdoor cables for SURGE testing. Do you know if Ethernet ports are also excluded from Surge testing if EN301489-1 is applied ? Regards, Kris From: owner-emc-p...@listserv.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@listserv.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Gemma Paolo Sent: woensdag 24 november 2004 14:55 To: am...@westin-emission.no; emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: R: Definition of Telecommunication port The last definition in CISPR 22 is: 3.6 telecommunications/network port point of connection for voice, data and signalling transfers intended to interconnect widelydispersed systems via such means as direct connection to multi-user telecommunications networks (e.g. public switched telecommunications networks (PSTN) integrated services digital networks (ISDN), x-type digital subscriber lines (xDSL), etc.), local area networks (e.g. Ethernet, Token Ring, etc.) and similar networks NOTE A port generally intended for interconnection of components of an ITE system under test (e.g. RS-232, IEEE Standard 1284 (parallel printer), Universal Serial Bus (USB), IEEE Standard 1394 (Fire Wire), etc.) and used in accordance with its functional specifications (e.g. for the maximum length of cable connected to it), is not considered to be a telecommunications/network port under this definition. A ethernet interface is a telecommunication port if the interface is a real ethernet interface in line with IEEE standards, there is no limitation on the lenght of cable. The questions is not on the number of Equipment attacched to the network but on the lenght of the wire/network. Ciao paolo _ Paolo Gemma Siemens Mobile Communications S.p.A. SMC PG MW ST EMC Safety SS Padana sup. KM 158 20060 Cassina de' Pecchi (MI) Italy phone +39 02 9526 6587fax +39 02 9526 6375 mobile +39 348 3690185 e-mail paolo.ge...@siemens.com _ -Messaggio originale- Da: owner-emc-p...@listserv.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@listserv.ieee.org] Per conto di am...@westin-emission.no Inviato: martedì 23 novembre 2004 23.40 A: emc-p...@ieee.org Oggetto: Definition of Telecommunication port In EN55022 / CISPR 22 the definition of a telecommunication port is: Ports which are intended to be connected to telecommunication networks (e.g. public switched telecommunication networks, integrated digital networks), local area networks (e.g. Ethernet, Token Ring) and similar networks. We have an ITE with an Ethernet port to communicate with a PC or many PCs. Do we here talk about an Ethernet LAN and therefore is our Ethernet port classified as a telecommunication port? Intended use for our equipment is for consumer and Small Office, Home Office (SOHO). The reason for asking is that conducted emission and surge apply for telecommunication port under the standard EN 301 489-1. Thanks. Regards Amund Westin, Oslo / Norway This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/listserv/request/user -guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/listserv/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions:
RE: English vs. American - very off topic, but in line with current thread Re: Definition ?
You are going to have to forgive Bruce. He is originally from South Africa, transplanted first to western Canada, and now to Eastern Canada. John -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Jason Greenwood Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 11:01 AM To: douglas_beckw...@mitel.com; John Woodgate Cc: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: English vs. American - very off topic, but in line with current thread Re: Definition ? even better Nice toque, Eh? -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of douglas_beckw...@mitel.com Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 10:53 AM To: John Woodgate Cc: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: English vs. American - very off topic, but in line with current thread Re: Definition ? Eh? John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk@majordomo.ieee.org on 10/25/2002 11:01:45 AM Please respond to John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk Sent by: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org cc: Subject: Re: English vs. American - very off topic, but in line with current thread Re: Definition ? I read in !emc-pstc that Jacob Schanker schan...@frontiernet.net wrote (in 001301c27c1f$b550d880$6401a8c0@net1) about 'English vs. American - very off topic, but in line with current thread Re: Definition ?' on Fri, 25 Oct 2002: Back in March 2000, I wrote the following piece for The Rochester Engineer magazine. I think it fits in nicely with the current Definition ? thread contrasting English English with American English. It's 'British English', not 'English English'. Professional translators recognise them as two closely allied but distinct language variants, as are Australian and South African English. It is important to translate from, say, German, into the right one for the client. US barbecue, British barbecue, Aus barbie, SA braai, for example. I am not a professional translator, but I work in technical writing and standards writing with people from both sides of the Pond, so I tend to be able to switch from one to the other. Many of my US colleagues can also do that. We NEVER know which terms to use when addressing Canadians, and one Canadian colleague confirmed that each Canadian citizen picks his or her own selection from the two variants. (;-) There are also a few Canadian English words. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: English vs. American - very off topic, but in line with curre nt thread Re: Definition ?
We'll have to make you an honorary Canuck Peter.don't forget ...it's pronounced Zed not Zee. Cheers and regards, Kaz -Original Message- From: Peter L. Tarver [mailto:peter.tar...@sanmina-sci.com] Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 3:33 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: English vs. American - very off topic, but in line with curre nt thread Re: Definition ? They've been listening to too much Max Webster, Eh. I think they need a little Moosehead and a beaver tail. Peter L. Tarver peter.tar...@sanmina-sci.com -Original Message- From: kazimier_gawrzy...@dell.com What's that all aboot? --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: English vs. American - very off topic, but in line with curre nt thread Re: Definition ?
They've been listening to too much Max Webster, Eh. I think they need a little Moosehead and a beaver tail. Peter L. Tarver peter.tar...@sanmina-sci.com -Original Message- From: kazimier_gawrzy...@dell.com What's that all aboot? --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: English vs. American - very off topic, but in line with curre nt thread Re: Definition ?
I heard tell of a bloke who came to visit his friend and his friend's wife on this side of the pond. On the way to the hotel from the airport, his friend said that he had to work the next day, but he should come over and go for a drive with his wife. The bloke's reply was, Okay, Sara, I'll knock you up around 10. What he meant by knock you up was knock on your door. She kept silent until she indignantly confronted her husband later in the evening after they got home. Best regards, Brian Epstein Sr Regulatory Compliance Engineer Veeco Instruments 112 Robin Hill Rd Santa Barbara CA 93117 805-967-2700 x2315 brian.epst...@veeco.com mailto:brian.epst...@veeco.com -Original Message- From: Jacob Schanker [mailto:schan...@frontiernet.net] Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 5:12 AM To: EMC-PSTC Subject: English vs. American - very off topic, but in line with current thread Re: Definition ? Back in March 2000, I wrote the following piece for The Rochester Engineer magazine. I think it fits in nicely with the current Definition ? thread contrasting English English with American English. Regards, Jacob Z. Schanker, P.E. 65 Crandon Way Rochester, NY 14618 Tel: 585 442 3909 Fax: 585 442 2182 j.schan...@ieee.org English I'm preparing this column in a hotel room in Basingstoke, Hampshire in the United Kingdom. The United Kingdom, by the way is increasingly a disunited kingdom with the devolution of Scotland and Wales, and, of course, Ireland. Devolution is sort of what we did in America in 1776, but without guns. Every time I am in England, which has been a lot, I am struck by the language differences. Churchill supposedly put it as: Two great nations separated by a common language. When a colleague prepares for their first trip to the UK, I prepare them by giving them an American-English Dictionary I found on the Web (as a text file called amlish.txt, look for it, or send me an email and I will send it to you). I also give the dictionary to English colleagues when they visit the U.S. After all, confusion goes both ways. There is an excellent web site, containing upwards of a thousand translations, with humorous commentary. Check out www.effingpot.com . Mike Etherington runs the web site. He just published a book, The Best of British - The American's guide to speaking British, based on the content of the web site. I ran across it the other day and bought it. Even after all my exposure to the British language, I found myself laughing out loud at his explanations. In case you are interested, it is ISBN 0-9536968-0-4. By this time, I'm quite fluent in English, but American words often slip out, with sometimes amusing results. The funniest was the time I had forgotten my rubbers, which is a no-no given the damp and rainy climate over here. I asked someone where I could get rubbers. The stare I received set the wheels in my head turning (yes, I still have a mechanical brain). I realized that they thought I meant condoms. I should have asked for galoshes or overshoes. In fact, many of the pitfalls in language center on differences in terms of a sexual or anatomical nature, best not discussed here. Differences in the names of articles of clothing also have a potential for amusement. Walking through the Marks Spencer's department store, I found signs for Men's slips, and Men's jumpers (translation: briefs and sweater vests). If you need to hold your pants up, don't ask for suspenders. And, don't play golf in knickers. Some of our familiar engineering terms used to have English counterparts, but increasingly, the English are adopting U.S. terminology along with the rest of the World. Accumulators are now batteries, but earth is still earth, not ground, although I hear ground being used in technical conversation. I suppose vacuum tubes are still valves, but then you don't see much of them anymore. Shields used to be screens; maybe they still are, after all, a windshield is still a windscreen here. Fortunately, the English are exceedingly polite, and forgive the occasional gaffes or misunderstandings. Their constant exposure to the best and worst of American television shows has trained them in the American language to the point where many are now bilingual. Now, if I ask where I can get a Big Mac, I'll be directed to the nearest McDonalds, not to a men's clothing store carrying large size outerwear. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All
English vs. American - very off topic, but in line with curre nt thread Re: Definition ?
I read in !emc-pstc that Pettit, Ghery ghery.pet...@intel.com wrote
(in d9223eb959a5d511a98f00508b68c20c12515...@orsmsx108.jf.intel.com)
about 'English vs. American - very off topic, but in line with curre nt
thread Re: Definition ?' on Fri, 25 Oct 2002:
Not to mention the lack of agreement on how to spell certain words that are
used on both sides. Color vs. colour, for example. What's with these extra
letters, anyway? Got an uncle in the ink business? ;-)
No, that was a phenomenon of the 12th to 15th centuries, when scribes
were paid by the letter. That's how we got some of those English place
names with unlikely pronunciations:
Happisburgh ('Hazebury')
Trottiscliffe ('Trosley')
There are some personal names, too, which may have been affected in the
same way.
The 'color/colour' business is partly chance, AIUI, and partly various
proposals for US spelling reform, e.g. those by Noah Webster, whose more
outré proposals didn't catch on, but simpler ones did.
When I was a small boy, the Dewey classification index, the biggest book
on display in the public library, used Dewey's proposed spellings, and a
footnote on every page said 'Topics in bold type **ar** subdivided.'
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to
http://www.isce.org.uk
PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL!
---
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RE: Definition ?
I have heard these things referred to as a buttinski (butt-in--ski) on this side of the pond. Don Borowski Schweitzer Engineering Labs Pullman, Washington Juhasz, John (IndSys, GE Interlogix) john.juh...@ge.com on 10/25/2002 09:52:41 AM Please respond to Juhasz, John (IndSys, GE Interlogix) john.juh...@ge.com To: robert.s...@flextronics.com, chris.col...@tagmclaren.com, emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org cc:(bcc: Don Borowski/SEL) Subject: RE: Definition ? For those telecom folks out there, how about the word 'butt' - the British term for test-set. The first time I heard it, a colleague from the UK office was helping me with a telephone interface problem. He asked me, Did you put 48V across your butt? I said, Excuse me? John A. Juhasz GE Interlogix Fiber Options Div. Bohemia, NY -Original Message- From: robert.s...@flextronics.com [mailto:robert.s...@flextronics.com] Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 10:59 AM To: chris.col...@tagmclaren.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Definition ? I once read a British technical manual on engines. While discussing a paraffin carburetor, it mentioned that in order to start the engine it must be strangled severely. Robert -Original Message- From: Colgan, Chris [mailto:chris.col...@tagmclaren.com] Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 4:21 AM To: 'EMC-PSTC List' Subject: RE: Definition ? One that I especially like is the name for that little butterfly valve in a carburetor; we call it a choke, but the British call it a strangler. In nearly 30 years of fiddling around with motorbikes engines, racing cars and more recently learning about aircraft piston engines for my private pilots licence I've never heard the term strangler used insted of choke here in England. Throttle maybe but not strangler. Either someone's had you on or your having us on :) Regards Chris Colgan Compliance Engineer TAG McLaren Audio Ltd The Summit, Latham Road Huntingdon, Cambs, PE29 6ZU *Tel: +44 (0)1480 415 627 *Fax: +44 (0)1480 52159 * Mailto:chris.col...@tagmclaren.com * http://www.tagmclaren.com This e-mail may contain SEL confidential information. The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of SEL. Any unauthorized disclosure, distribution or other use is prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender, permanently delete it, and destroy any printout. Thank you. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: English vs. American - very off topic, but in line with curre nt thread Re: Definition ?
What's that all aboot? -Original Message- From: Jason Greenwood [mailto:jagre...@cisco.com] Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 1:01 PM To: douglas_beckw...@mitel.com; John Woodgate Cc: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: English vs. American - very off topic, but in line with current thread Re: Definition ? even better Nice toque, Eh? -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of douglas_beckw...@mitel.com Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 10:53 AM To: John Woodgate Cc: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: English vs. American - very off topic, but in line with current thread Re: Definition ? Eh? John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk@majordomo.ieee.org on 10/25/2002 11:01:45 AM Please respond to John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk Sent by: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org cc: Subject: Re: English vs. American - very off topic, but in line with current thread Re: Definition ? I read in !emc-pstc that Jacob Schanker schan...@frontiernet.net wrote (in 001301c27c1f$b550d880$6401a8c0@net1) about 'English vs. American - very off topic, but in line with current thread Re: Definition ?' on Fri, 25 Oct 2002: Back in March 2000, I wrote the following piece for The Rochester Engineer magazine. I think it fits in nicely with the current Definition ? thread contrasting English English with American English. It's 'British English', not 'English English'. Professional translators recognise them as two closely allied but distinct language variants, as are Australian and South African English. It is important to translate from, say, German, into the right one for the client. US barbecue, British barbecue, Aus barbie, SA braai, for example. I am not a professional translator, but I work in technical writing and standards writing with people from both sides of the Pond, so I tend to be able to switch from one to the other. Many of my US colleagues can also do that. We NEVER know which terms to use when addressing Canadians, and one Canadian colleague confirmed that each Canadian citizen picks his or her own selection from the two variants. (;-) There are also a few Canadian English words. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc
Re: English vs. American - very off topic, but in line with current thread Re: Definition ?
Eh? John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk@majordomo.ieee.org on 10/25/2002 11:01:45 AM Please respond to John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk Sent by: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org cc: Subject: Re: English vs. American - very off topic, but in line with current thread Re: Definition ? I read in !emc-pstc that Jacob Schanker schan...@frontiernet.net wrote (in 001301c27c1f$b550d880$6401a8c0@net1) about 'English vs. American - very off topic, but in line with current thread Re: Definition ?' on Fri, 25 Oct 2002: Back in March 2000, I wrote the following piece for The Rochester Engineer magazine. I think it fits in nicely with the current Definition ? thread contrasting English English with American English. It's 'British English', not 'English English'. Professional translators recognise them as two closely allied but distinct language variants, as are Australian and South African English. It is important to translate from, say, German, into the right one for the client. US barbecue, British barbecue, Aus barbie, SA braai, for example. I am not a professional translator, but I work in technical writing and standards writing with people from both sides of the Pond, so I tend to be able to switch from one to the other. Many of my US colleagues can also do that. We NEVER know which terms to use when addressing Canadians, and one Canadian colleague confirmed that each Canadian citizen picks his or her own selection from the two variants. (;-) There are also a few Canadian English words. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: Definition ? Brit response from USA.
Ted, I think that what you meant to say was Strangler than Diction! G - VA -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Ted Rook Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 11:15 AM To: Subject: Re: Definition ? Brit response from USA. Agree, in another lifetime of car tinkering never heard of a strangler under the bonnet !. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: Definition ?
For those telecom folks out there, how about the word 'butt' - the British term for test-set. The first time I heard it, a colleague from the UK office was helping me with a telephone interface problem. He asked me, Did you put 48V across your butt? I said, Excuse me? John A. Juhasz GE Interlogix Fiber Options Div. Bohemia, NY -Original Message- From: robert.s...@flextronics.com [mailto:robert.s...@flextronics.com] Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 10:59 AM To: chris.col...@tagmclaren.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Definition ? I once read a British technical manual on engines. While discussing a paraffin carburetor, it mentioned that in order to start the engine it must be strangled severely. Robert -Original Message- From: Colgan, Chris [mailto:chris.col...@tagmclaren.com] Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 4:21 AM To: 'EMC-PSTC List' Subject:RE: Definition ? One that I especially like is the name for that little butterfly valve in a carburetor; we call it a choke, but the British call it a strangler. In nearly 30 years of fiddling around with motorbikes engines, racing cars and more recently learning about aircraft piston engines for my private pilots licence I've never heard the term strangler used insted of choke here in England. Throttle maybe but not strangler. Either someone's had you on or your having us on :) Regards Chris Colgan Compliance Engineer TAG McLaren Audio Ltd The Summit, Latham Road Huntingdon, Cambs, PE29 6ZU *Tel: +44 (0)1480 415 627 *Fax: +44 (0)1480 52159 * Mailto:chris.col...@tagmclaren.com * http://www.tagmclaren.com ** Please visit us at www.tagmclaren.com ** The contents of this E-mail are confidential and for the exclusive use of the intended recipient. If you receive this E-mail in error, please delete it from your system immediately and notify us either by E-mail, telephone or fax. You should not copy, forward or otherwise disclose the content of the E-mail. Important Note: Any typographical, clerical or other error in this communication is subject to correction without any liability on the part of TAG McLaren Audio Limited. Any orders placed shall be subject to acceptance by TAG McLaren Audio Limited on its standard terms and conditions of sale which shall govern the contract for the sale and purchase of the products ordered to the exclusion of any other terms and conditions. TAG McLaren Audio Ltd The Summit, 11 Latham Road Huntingdon, Cambs, PE29 6ZU Telephone : 01480 415600 (+44 1480 415600) Facsimile : 01480 52159 (+44 1480 52159) ** Please visit us at www.tagmclaren.com ** --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim
RE: English vs. American - very off topic, but in line with curre nt thread Re: Definition ?
Not to mention the lack of agreement on how to spell certain words that are used on both sides. Color vs. colour, for example. What's with these extra letters, anyway? Got an uncle in the ink business? ;-) -Original Message- From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk] Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 8:02 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: English vs. American - very off topic, but in line with current thread Re: Definition ? I read in !emc-pstc that Jacob Schanker schan...@frontiernet.net wrote (in 001301c27c1f$b550d880$6401a8c0@net1) about 'English vs. American - very off topic, but in line with current thread Re: Definition ?' on Fri, 25 Oct 2002: Back in March 2000, I wrote the following piece for The Rochester Engineer magazine. I think it fits in nicely with the current Definition ? thread contrasting English English with American English. It's 'British English', not 'English English'. Professional translators recognise them as two closely allied but distinct language variants, as are Australian and South African English. It is important to translate from, say, German, into the right one for the client. US barbecue, British barbecue, Aus barbie, SA braai, for example. I am not a professional translator, but I work in technical writing and standards writing with people from both sides of the Pond, so I tend to be able to switch from one to the other. Many of my US colleagues can also do that. We NEVER know which terms to use when addressing Canadians, and one Canadian colleague confirmed that each Canadian citizen picks his or her own selection from the two variants. (;-) There are also a few Canadian English words. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: Definition ?
And keep the blue side up in normal operations! -Original Message- From: jestuckey [mailto:jestuc...@micron.com] Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 11:04 AM To: 'Chris Maxwell'; 'emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org' Subject: RE: Definition ? And above the undercarriage of the kite.. as long as one is not inverted, but when you settle the pipper center the ball, check the deflection and have a go at the bloce. -Original Message- From: Chris Maxwell [mailto:chris.maxw...@nettest.com] Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 10:42 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Definition ? The windscreen? Isn't that right behind the bonnet? Chris -Original Message- From: Ken Javor [SMTP:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com] Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 10:48 AM To: lisa_cef...@mksinst.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: Definition ? Screen is the Queen's English for what Americans call shield. As in Brit usage windscreen for American windshield. -- From: lisa_cef...@mksinst.com To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Definition ? Date: Thu, Oct 24, 2002, 8:15 AM Hi all, Could anyone explain the definition of a screened cable as it is applied in EN61000-4-6 (and perhaps elsewhere) Thank-you in advance Regards, Lisa --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute
Re: Definition ? Brit response from USA.
Agree, in another lifetime of car tinkering never heard of a strangler under the bonnet !. John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk 25-Oct-02 9:01:29 AM I read in !emc-pstc that Colgan, Chris chris.col...@tagmclaren.com wrote (in AE0F4BD08FEAD211895900805FE67B1F01425AAD@CAT) about 'Definition ?' on Fri, 25 Oct 2002: In nearly 30 years of fiddling around with motorbikes engines, racing cars and more recently learning about aircraft piston engines for my private pilots licence I've never heard the term strangler used insted of choke here in England. Throttle No, that's worked by the accelerator (gas) pedal. maybe but not strangler. Either someone's had you on or your having us on :) I've seen the term 'strangler' used for 'choke' but it was in a specific context (I thought it was motorcycle carburettors (carburators), but now I suppose not) and it is certainly not the normal term. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: English vs. American - very off topic, but in line with current thread Re: Definition ?
I read in !emc-pstc that Jacob Schanker schan...@frontiernet.net wrote (in 001301c27c1f$b550d880$6401a8c0@net1) about 'English vs. American - very off topic, but in line with current thread Re: Definition ?' on Fri, 25 Oct 2002: Back in March 2000, I wrote the following piece for The Rochester Engineer magazine. I think it fits in nicely with the current Definition ? thread contrasting English English with American English. It's 'British English', not 'English English'. Professional translators recognise them as two closely allied but distinct language variants, as are Australian and South African English. It is important to translate from, say, German, into the right one for the client. US barbecue, British barbecue, Aus barbie, SA braai, for example. I am not a professional translator, but I work in technical writing and standards writing with people from both sides of the Pond, so I tend to be able to switch from one to the other. Many of my US colleagues can also do that. We NEVER know which terms to use when addressing Canadians, and one Canadian colleague confirmed that each Canadian citizen picks his or her own selection from the two variants. (;-) There are also a few Canadian English words. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
English vs. American - very off topic, but in line with current thread Re: Definition ?
from a Brit in response to Jacob Schanker: A good, read :D My family always knew waterproof rubber footwear as Wellington Boots. The English vernacular being Where are my Wellies?. This variety extends to just below the knee and are the standard footwear for outdoor workers. This contrasts with a baffling line in the Grateful Dead Song Trucking which refers to Willys the well known American all terrain vehicle or 'GP'. In the past six years of residence in the US numerous mysteries in the popular songs of the sixties have been cleared up, a lifetime later. Best Regards Ted Rook, Console Engineering, ext 4659 Please note our new location and phone numbers: Crest Audio Inc, 16-00 Pollitt Drive Fair Lawn, NJ 07410 USA 201 475 4600 telephone receptionist, 8.30 - 5 pm EST. 201 475 4659 direct line w/voice mail, 24 hrs. 201 475 4677 fax, 24 hrs. Jacob Schanker schan...@frontiernet.net 25-Oct-02 8:11:54 AM Back in March 2000, I wrote the following piece for The Rochester Engineer magazine. I think it fits in nicely with the current Definition ? thread contrasting English English with American English. Regards, Jacob Z. Schanker, P.E. 65 Crandon Way Rochester, NY 14618 Tel: 585 442 3909 Fax: 585 442 2182 j.schan...@ieee.org English I'm preparing this column in a hotel room in Basingstoke, Hampshire in the United Kingdom. The United Kingdom, by the way is increasingly a disunited kingdom with the devolution of Scotland and Wales, and, of course, Ireland. Devolution is sort of what we did in America in 1776, but without guns. Every time I am in England, which has been a lot, I am struck by the language differences. Churchill supposedly put it as: Two great nations separated by a common language. When a colleague prepares for their first trip to the UK, I prepare them by giving them an American-English Dictionary I found on the Web (as a text file called amlish.txt, look for it, or send me an email and I will send it to you). I also give the dictionary to English colleagues when they visit the U.S. After all, confusion goes both ways. There is an excellent web site, containing upwards of a thousand translations, with humorous commentary. Check out www.effingpot.com . Mike Etherington runs the web site. He just published a book, The Best of British - The American's guide to speaking British, based on the content of the web site. I ran across it the other day and bought it. Even after all my exposure to the British language, I found myself laughing out loud at his explanations. In case you are interested, it is ISBN 0-9536968-0-4. By this time, I'm quite fluent in English, but American words often slip out, with sometimes amusing results. The funniest was the time I had forgotten my rubbers, which is a no-no given the damp and rainy climate over here. I asked someone where I could get rubbers. The stare I received set the wheels in my head turning (yes, I still have a mechanical brain). I realized that they thought I meant condoms. I should have asked for galoshes or overshoes. In fact, many of the pitfalls in language center on differences in terms of a sexual or anatomical nature, best not discussed here. Differences in the names of articles of clothing also have a potential for amusement. Walking through the Marks Spencer's department store, I found signs for Men's slips, and Men's jumpers (translation: briefs and sweater vests). If you need to hold your pants up, don't ask for suspenders. And, don't play golf in knickers. Some of our familiar engineering terms used to have English counterparts, but increasingly, the English are adopting U.S. terminology along with the rest of the World. Accumulators are now batteries, but earth is still earth, not ground, although I hear ground being used in technical conversation. I suppose vacuum tubes are still valves, but then you don't see much of them anymore. Shields used to be screens; maybe they still are, after all, a windshield is still a windscreen here. Fortunately, the English are exceedingly polite, and forgive the occasional gaffes or misunderstandings. Their constant exposure to the best and worst of American television shows has trained them in the American language to the point where many are now bilingual. Now, if I ask where I can get a Big Mac, I'll be directed to the nearest McDonalds, not to a men's clothing store carrying large size outerwear. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher:
RE: Definition ?
I once read a British technical manual on engines. While discussing a paraffin carburetor, it mentioned that in order to start the engine it must be strangled severely. Robert -Original Message- From: Colgan, Chris [mailto:chris.col...@tagmclaren.com] Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 4:21 AM To: 'EMC-PSTC List' Subject:RE: Definition ? One that I especially like is the name for that little butterfly valve in a carburetor; we call it a choke, but the British call it a strangler. In nearly 30 years of fiddling around with motorbikes engines, racing cars and more recently learning about aircraft piston engines for my private pilots licence I've never heard the term strangler used insted of choke here in England. Throttle maybe but not strangler. Either someone's had you on or your having us on :) Regards Chris Colgan Compliance Engineer TAG McLaren Audio Ltd The Summit, Latham Road Huntingdon, Cambs, PE29 6ZU *Tel: +44 (0)1480 415 627 *Fax: +44 (0)1480 52159 * Mailto:chris.col...@tagmclaren.com * http://www.tagmclaren.com ** Please visit us at www.tagmclaren.com ** The contents of this E-mail are confidential and for the exclusive use of the intended recipient. If you receive this E-mail in error, please delete it from your system immediately and notify us either by E-mail, telephone or fax. You should not copy, forward or otherwise disclose the content of the E-mail. Important Note: Any typographical, clerical or other error in this communication is subject to correction without any liability on the part of TAG McLaren Audio Limited. Any orders placed shall be subject to acceptance by TAG McLaren Audio Limited on its standard terms and conditions of sale which shall govern the contract for the sale and purchase of the products ordered to the exclusion of any other terms and conditions. TAG McLaren Audio Ltd The Summit, 11 Latham Road Huntingdon, Cambs, PE29 6ZU Telephone : 01480 415600 (+44 1480 415600) Facsimile : 01480 52159 (+44 1480 52159) ** Please visit us at www.tagmclaren.com ** --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: Definition ?
Interesting question. Perhaps it arises from the settlement of America beginning in the sixteenth century followed by parallel but independent language evolution ? We have numerous everyday examples of languages evolving very fast in response to new situations, unless you are a French intellectual ;-) Ed ed.pr...@cubic.com 24-Oct-02 8:34:06 PM There seems to be more than a few instances of odd differences in British and American technical terms. One that I especially like is the name for that little butterfly valve in a carburetor; we call it a choke, but the British call it a strangler. The odd thing is that the American preference for words like hood and choke implies a preference for Old English or Germanic roots. The British preference for bonnet and strangler implies a preference for Middle French and Latin. I wonder if they means anything? Regards, Ed (Eduoard or Eadvard?) Ed Price ed.pr...@cubic.com Electromagnetic Compatibility Lab Cubic Defense Systems San Diego, CA USA 858-505-2780 (Voice) 858-505-1583 (Fax) Military Avionics EMC Is Our Specialty Shake-Bake-Shock - Metrology - Reliability Analysis -Original Message- From:Ken Javor [SMTP:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com] Sent:Thursday, October 24, 2002 10:48 AM To: lisa_cef...@mksinst.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: Definition ? Screen is the Queen's English for what Americans call shield. As in Brit usage windscreen for American windshield. -- From: lisa_cef...@mksinst.com To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Definition ? Date: Thu, Oct 24, 2002, 8:15 AM Hi all, Could anyone explain the definition of a screened cable as it is applied in EN61000-4-6 (and perhaps elsewhere) Thank-you in advance Regards, Lisa --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: Definition ?
This is an interesting Friday morning diversion. On the bottom of most US auto down draft carburetors is a throttle plate, that has a throttle shaft run transversely through it with a butterfly valve for each barrel. The term butterfly has also been applied to the choke leaf. A side draft carburetor simply rotates the nomenclature 90º (or, if you prefer, 270º). Regards, Peter L. Tarver, PE Product Safety Manager Sanmina-SCI Homologation Services San Jose, CA peter.tar...@sanmina-sci.com -Original Message- From: Colgan, Chris I've never heard the term strangler used insted of choke here in England. Throttle maybe but not strangler. Either someone's had you on or your having us on :) Regards Chris Colgan --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: Definition ?
I read in !emc-pstc that Colgan, Chris chris.col...@tagmclaren.com wrote (in AE0F4BD08FEAD211895900805FE67B1F01425AAD@CAT) about 'Definition ?' on Fri, 25 Oct 2002: In nearly 30 years of fiddling around with motorbikes engines, racing cars and more recently learning about aircraft piston engines for my private pilots licence I've never heard the term strangler used insted of choke here in England. Throttle No, that's worked by the accelerator (gas) pedal. maybe but not strangler. Either someone's had you on or your having us on :) I've seen the term 'strangler' used for 'choke' but it was in a specific context (I thought it was motorcycle carburettors (carburators), but now I suppose not) and it is certainly not the normal term. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
English vs. American - very off topic, but in line with current thread Re: Definition ?
Back in March 2000, I wrote the following piece for The Rochester Engineer magazine. I think it fits in nicely with the current Definition ? thread contrasting English English with American English. Regards, Jacob Z. Schanker, P.E. 65 Crandon Way Rochester, NY 14618 Tel: 585 442 3909 Fax: 585 442 2182 j.schan...@ieee.org English I'm preparing this column in a hotel room in Basingstoke, Hampshire in the United Kingdom. The United Kingdom, by the way is increasingly a disunited kingdom with the devolution of Scotland and Wales, and, of course, Ireland. Devolution is sort of what we did in America in 1776, but without guns. Every time I am in England, which has been a lot, I am struck by the language differences. Churchill supposedly put it as: Two great nations separated by a common language. When a colleague prepares for their first trip to the UK, I prepare them by giving them an American-English Dictionary I found on the Web (as a text file called amlish.txt, look for it, or send me an email and I will send it to you). I also give the dictionary to English colleagues when they visit the U.S. After all, confusion goes both ways. There is an excellent web site, containing upwards of a thousand translations, with humorous commentary. Check out www.effingpot.com . Mike Etherington runs the web site. He just published a book, The Best of British - The American's guide to speaking British, based on the content of the web site. I ran across it the other day and bought it. Even after all my exposure to the British language, I found myself laughing out loud at his explanations. In case you are interested, it is ISBN 0-9536968-0-4. By this time, I'm quite fluent in English, but American words often slip out, with sometimes amusing results. The funniest was the time I had forgotten my rubbers, which is a no-no given the damp and rainy climate over here. I asked someone where I could get rubbers. The stare I received set the wheels in my head turning (yes, I still have a mechanical brain). I realized that they thought I meant condoms. I should have asked for galoshes or overshoes. In fact, many of the pitfalls in language center on differences in terms of a sexual or anatomical nature, best not discussed here. Differences in the names of articles of clothing also have a potential for amusement. Walking through the Marks Spencer's department store, I found signs for Men's slips, and Men's jumpers (translation: briefs and sweater vests). If you need to hold your pants up, don't ask for suspenders. And, don't play golf in knickers. Some of our familiar engineering terms used to have English counterparts, but increasingly, the English are adopting U.S. terminology along with the rest of the World. Accumulators are now batteries, but earth is still earth, not ground, although I hear ground being used in technical conversation. I suppose vacuum tubes are still valves, but then you don't see much of them anymore. Shields used to be screens; maybe they still are, after all, a windshield is still a windscreen here. Fortunately, the English are exceedingly polite, and forgive the occasional gaffes or misunderstandings. Their constant exposure to the best and worst of American television shows has trained them in the American language to the point where many are now bilingual. Now, if I ask where I can get a Big Mac, I'll be directed to the nearest McDonalds, not to a men's clothing store carrying large size outerwear. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: Definition ?
One that I especially like is the name for that little butterfly valve in a carburetor; we call it a choke, but the British call it a strangler. In nearly 30 years of fiddling around with motorbikes engines, racing cars and more recently learning about aircraft piston engines for my private pilots licence I've never heard the term strangler used insted of choke here in England. Throttle maybe but not strangler. Either someone's had you on or your having us on :) Regards Chris Colgan Compliance Engineer TAG McLaren Audio Ltd The Summit, Latham Road Huntingdon, Cambs, PE29 6ZU *Tel: +44 (0)1480 415 627 *Fax: +44 (0)1480 52159 * Mailto:chris.col...@tagmclaren.com * http://www.tagmclaren.com ** Please visit us at www.tagmclaren.com ** The contents of this E-mail are confidential and for the exclusive use of the intended recipient. If you receive this E-mail in error, please delete it from your system immediately and notify us either by E-mail, telephone or fax. You should not copy, forward or otherwise disclose the content of the E-mail. Important Note: Any typographical, clerical or other error in this communication is subject to correction without any liability on the part of TAG McLaren Audio Limited. Any orders placed shall be subject to acceptance by TAG McLaren Audio Limited on its standard terms and conditions of sale which shall govern the contract for the sale and purchase of the products ordered to the exclusion of any other terms and conditions. TAG McLaren Audio Ltd The Summit, 11 Latham Road Huntingdon, Cambs, PE29 6ZU Telephone : 01480 415600 (+44 1480 415600) Facsimile : 01480 52159 (+44 1480 52159) ** Please visit us at www.tagmclaren.com ** --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: Definition ?
I read in !emc-pstc that Price, Ed ed.pr...@cubic.com wrote (in b78135310217d511907c0090273f5190d0b...@curly.ds.cubic.com) about 'Definition ?' on Thu, 24 Oct 2002: There seems to be more than a few instances of odd differences in British and American technical terms. One that I especially like is the name for that little butterfly valve in a carburetor; we call it a choke, but the British call it a strangler. No, we don't. I thought 'strangler' was US! The odd thing is that the American preference for words like hood and choke implies a preference for Old English or Germanic roots. The British preference for bonnet and strangler implies a preference for Middle French and Latin. I wonder if they means anything? Yes, probably. US English has tended to keep older words and forms (probably due to being more rural: it also applies to rural areas in Britain), while 'standard' British English has accepted more Romance influence since, say, 1600. British English terms for cars were strongly influenced by French - consider even 'garage' and 'chauffeur'. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: Definition ?
I read in !emc-pstc that Grasso, Charles charles.gra...@echostar.com wrote (in 70B321FEC75C704A846DEE3D856ACB1108418437@riv- exch2.echostar.com) about 'Definition ?' on Thu, 24 Oct 2002: And don't forget to put on your plimsols Now archaic. when you want to jog, take a bumbershoot Now archaic. in case it rains and wrap your thanks giving What is 'Thanksgiving'?(;-) turkey in aluminium... -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: Definition ?
There seems to be more than a few instances of odd differences in British and American technical terms. One that I especially like is the name for that little butterfly valve in a carburetor; we call it a choke, but the British call it a strangler. The odd thing is that the American preference for words like hood and choke implies a preference for Old English or Germanic roots. The British preference for bonnet and strangler implies a preference for Middle French and Latin. I wonder if they means anything? Regards, Ed (Eduoard or Eadvard?) Ed Price ed.pr...@cubic.com Electromagnetic Compatibility Lab Cubic Defense Systems San Diego, CA USA 858-505-2780 (Voice) 858-505-1583 (Fax) Military Avionics EMC Is Our Specialty Shake-Bake-Shock - Metrology - Reliability Analysis -Original Message- From:Ken Javor [SMTP:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com] Sent:Thursday, October 24, 2002 10:48 AM To: lisa_cef...@mksinst.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: Definition ? Screen is the Queen's English for what Americans call shield. As in Brit usage windscreen for American windshield. -- From: lisa_cef...@mksinst.com To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Definition ? Date: Thu, Oct 24, 2002, 8:15 AM Hi all, Could anyone explain the definition of a screened cable as it is applied in EN61000-4-6 (and perhaps elsewhere) Thank-you in advance Regards, Lisa --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: Definition ?
And don't forget to put on your plimsols when you want to jog, take a bumbershoot in case it rains and wrap your thanks giving turkey in aluminium... Best Regards Charles Grasso Senior Compliance Engineer Echostar Communications Corp. Tel: 303-706-5467 Fax: 303-799-6222 Cell: 303-204-2974 Email: charles.gra...@echostar.com; Email Alternate: chasgra...@ieee.org -Original Message- From: Ted Rook [mailto:t...@crestaudio.com] Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 3:04 PM To: Subject: RE: Definition ? Yep, and that's in front of the boot. The gearstick and accelerator are in between :D Chris Maxwell chris.maxw...@nettest.com 24-Oct-02 12:41:52 PM The windscreen? Isn't that right behind the bonnet? Chris -Original Message- From: Ken Javor [SMTP:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com] Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 10:48 AM To: lisa_cef...@mksinst.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: Definition ? Screen is the Queen's English for what Americans call shield. As in Brit usage windscreen for American windshield. -- From: lisa_cef...@mksinst.com To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Definition ? Date: Thu, Oct 24, 2002, 8:15 AM Hi all, Could anyone explain the definition of a screened cable as it is applied in EN61000-4-6 (and perhaps elsewhere) Thank-you in advance Regards, Lisa --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald
Re: Definition ?
I read in !emc-pstc that Ted Rook t...@crestaudio.com wrote (in sdb8192b@peavey.com) about 'Definition ?' on Thu, 24 Oct 2002: gearstick gearlever -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: Definition ?
Yep, and that's in front of the boot. The gearstick and accelerator are in between :D Chris Maxwell chris.maxw...@nettest.com 24-Oct-02 12:41:52 PM The windscreen? Isn't that right behind the bonnet? Chris -Original Message- From: Ken Javor [SMTP:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com] Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 10:48 AM To: lisa_cef...@mksinst.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: Definition ? Screen is the Queen's English for what Americans call shield. As in Brit usage windscreen for American windshield. -- From: lisa_cef...@mksinst.com To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Definition ? Date: Thu, Oct 24, 2002, 8:15 AM Hi all, Could anyone explain the definition of a screened cable as it is applied in EN61000-4-6 (and perhaps elsewhere) Thank-you in advance Regards, Lisa --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: Definition ?
And above the undercarriage of the kite.. as long as one is not inverted, but when you settle the pipper center the ball, check the deflection and have a go at the bloce. -Original Message- From: Chris Maxwell [mailto:chris.maxw...@nettest.com] Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 10:42 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Definition ? The windscreen? Isn't that right behind the bonnet? Chris -Original Message- From: Ken Javor [SMTP:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com] Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 10:48 AM To: lisa_cef...@mksinst.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: Definition ? Screen is the Queen's English for what Americans call shield. As in Brit usage windscreen for American windshield. -- From: lisa_cef...@mksinst.com To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Definition ? Date: Thu, Oct 24, 2002, 8:15 AM Hi all, Could anyone explain the definition of a screened cable as it is applied in EN61000-4-6 (and perhaps elsewhere) Thank-you in advance Regards, Lisa --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: Definition ?
Yeah and in front of the boot... Best Regards Charles Grasso Senior Compliance Engineer Echostar Communications Corp. Tel: 303-706-5467 Fax: 303-799-6222 Cell: 303-204-2974 Email: charles.gra...@echostar.com; Email Alternate: chasgra...@ieee.org -Original Message- From: Chris Maxwell [mailto:chris.maxw...@nettest.com] Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 10:42 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Definition ? The windscreen? Isn't that right behind the bonnet? Chris -Original Message- From: Ken Javor [SMTP:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com] Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 10:48 AM To: lisa_cef...@mksinst.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: Definition ? Screen is the Queen's English for what Americans call shield. As in Brit usage windscreen for American windshield. -- From: lisa_cef...@mksinst.com To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Definition ? Date: Thu, Oct 24, 2002, 8:15 AM Hi all, Could anyone explain the definition of a screened cable as it is applied in EN61000-4-6 (and perhaps elsewhere) Thank-you in advance Regards, Lisa --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: Definition ?
And significantly ahead of the boot. Ghery -Original Message- From: Chris Maxwell [mailto:chris.maxw...@nettest.com] Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 9:42 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Definition ? The windscreen? Isn't that right behind the bonnet? Chris -Original Message- From: Ken Javor [SMTP:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com] Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 10:48 AM To: lisa_cef...@mksinst.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: Definition ? Screen is the Queen's English for what Americans call shield. As in Brit usage windscreen for American windshield. -- From: lisa_cef...@mksinst.com To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Definition ? Date: Thu, Oct 24, 2002, 8:15 AM Hi all, Could anyone explain the definition of a screened cable as it is applied in EN61000-4-6 (and perhaps elsewhere) Thank-you in advance Regards, Lisa --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: Definition ?
The windscreen? Isn't that right behind the bonnet? Chris -Original Message- From: Ken Javor [SMTP:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com] Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 10:48 AM To: lisa_cef...@mksinst.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: Definition ? Screen is the Queen's English for what Americans call shield. As in Brit usage windscreen for American windshield. -- From: lisa_cef...@mksinst.com To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Definition ? Date: Thu, Oct 24, 2002, 8:15 AM Hi all, Could anyone explain the definition of a screened cable as it is applied in EN61000-4-6 (and perhaps elsewhere) Thank-you in advance Regards, Lisa --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: Definition ?
Hi Lisa, I believe a screened cable would be a shielded cable. Bill Fleury -Original Message- From: lisa_cef...@mksinst.com [mailto:lisa_cef...@mksinst.com] Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 8:15 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Definition ? Hi all, Could anyone explain the definition of a screened cable as it is applied in EN61000-4-6 (and perhaps elsewhere) Thank-you in advance Regards, Lisa --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: Definition ?
Thank you all for the response to screened / sheilded cable.. I think I got it now ; - } --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: Definition ?
Screen is the Queen's English for what Americans call shield. As in Brit usage windscreen for American windshield. -- From: lisa_cef...@mksinst.com To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Definition ? Date: Thu, Oct 24, 2002, 8:15 AM Hi all, Could anyone explain the definition of a screened cable as it is applied in EN61000-4-6 (and perhaps elsewhere) Thank-you in advance Regards, Lisa --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: Definition ?
What the Brits call a screened cable, we 'Merkins call a shielded cable. lisa_cef...@mksinst.com on 10/24/2002 06:15:18 AM Please respond to lisa_cef...@mksinst.com To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org cc:(bcc: Don Borowski/SEL) Subject: Definition ? Hi all, Could anyone explain the definition of a screened cable as it is applied in EN61000-4-6 (and perhaps elsewhere) Thank-you in advance Regards, Lisa --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list This e-mail may contain SEL confidential information. The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of SEL. Any unauthorized disclosure, distribution or other use is prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender, permanently delete it, and destroy any printout. Thank you. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: Definition ?
Shielded. John A. Juhasz GE Interlogix Fiber Options Div. Bohemia, NY -Original Message- From: lisa_cef...@mksinst.com [mailto:lisa_cef...@mksinst.com] Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 9:15 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Definition ? Hi all, Could anyone explain the definition of a screened cable as it is applied in EN61000-4-6 (and perhaps elsewhere) Thank-you in advance Regards, Lisa --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
Re: definition of off
UL and TUV will accept an amplifer mute and display turn off as an off condition as long as it is done without human intervention at the time of switching, no input power requirement. CSA will not, and has stated that the product should either be disconnected from the mains or the secondary circuitry shall be disconnected and the input power in the off state shall be less than 15W. Ed From: "Lou Aiken" <ai...@gulftel.com> Reply-To: "Lou Aiken" <ai...@gulftel.com> To: "Colgan, Chris" <chris.col...@tagmclaren.com>, "'Emc-Pstc' (E-mail)" <emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org> Subject: Re: definition of "off" Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 12:37:23 -0600 According to my understanding of 950, which is much better than 65, I believe a product must be safe, "within the meaning of the standard" during unattended operation and also when unattended in so-called "off" mode. Consequently, the status of the product when in the off mode, should be determined by the manufacturer, and the safety authorities should show little interest. Regards, Lou Lou Aiken 27109 Palmetto Drive Orange Beach, AL 36561 USA tel +1 251 981 6786 fax +1 251 981 3054 mobile +1 251 979 4648 - Original Message - From: Colgan, Chris To: 'Emc-Pstc' (E-mail) Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2001 8:20 AM Subject: definition of "off" What is clear from IEC60065 is that if a product is capable of being switched on or off or both by a timer or a data link, a front panel mechanically operated switch is not required. What is not clear is the definition of off. Has anyone been given a definition, preferably by a CTL member or the like? Cheers Chris Colgan Compliance Engineer TAG McLaren Audio Ltd The Summit, Latham Road Huntingdon, Cambs, PE29 6ZU *Tel: +44 (0)1480 415 627 *Fax: +44 (0)1480 52159 * Mailto:chris.col...@tagmclaren.com * http://www.tagmclaren.com ** Please visit us at www.tagmclaren.com ** The contents of this E-mail are confidential and for the exclusive use of the intended recipient. If you receive this E-mail in error, please delete it from your system immediately and notify us either by E-mail, telephone or fax. You should not copy, forward or otherwise disclose the content of the E-mail. TAG McLaren Audio Ltd The Summit, 11 Latham Road Huntingdon, Cambs, PE29 6ZU Telephone : 01480 415600 (+44 1480 415600) Facsimile : 01480 52159 (+44 1480 52159) ** Please visit us at www.tagmclaren.com ** --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson: pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Heald davehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Re: definition of off
According to my understanding of 950, which is much better than 65, I believe a product must be safe, within the meaning of the standard during unattended operation and also when unattended in so-called off mode. Consequently, the status of the product when in the off mode, should be determined by the manufacturer, and the safety authorities should show little interest. Regards, Lou Lou Aiken 27109 Palmetto Drive Orange Beach, AL 36561 USA tel +1 251 981 6786 fax +1 251 981 3054 mobile +1 251 979 4648 - Original Message - From: Colgan, Chris To: 'Emc-Pstc' (E-mail) Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2001 8:20 AM Subject: definition of off What is clear from IEC60065 is that if a product is capable of being switched on or off or both by a timer or a data link, a front panel mechanically operated switch is not required. What is not clear is the definition of off. Has anyone been given a definition, preferably by a CTL member or the like? Cheers Chris Colgan Compliance Engineer TAG McLaren Audio Ltd The Summit, Latham Road Huntingdon, Cambs, PE29 6ZU *Tel: +44 (0)1480 415 627 *Fax: +44 (0)1480 52159 * Mailto:chris.col...@tagmclaren.com * http://www.tagmclaren.com ** Please visit us at www.tagmclaren.com ** The contents of this E-mail are confidential and for the exclusive use of the intended recipient. If you receive this E-mail in error, please delete it from your system immediately and notify us either by E-mail, telephone or fax. You should not copy, forward or otherwise disclose the content of the E-mail. TAG McLaren Audio Ltd The Summit, 11 Latham Road Huntingdon, Cambs, PE29 6ZU Telephone : 01480 415600 (+44 1480 415600) Facsimile : 01480 52159 (+44 1480 52159) ** Please visit us at www.tagmclaren.com ** --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
RE: Definition for Safety Critical Component
Dear Colleagues, One year ago I put together some information regarding this subject; (I have as well the Bibliography for it). In my opinion, all the participants at this discussion, made very useful observations. Respectfully yours, Constantin Constantin Bolintineanu P.Eng. DIGITAL SECURITY CONTROLS LTD. 3301 LANGSTAFF Road, L4K 4L2 CONCORD, ONTARIO, CANADA e-mail: bolin...@dscltd.com telephone: 905 760 3000 ext 2568 Visit our web site at www.dscgrp.com -Original Message- From: lcr...@tuvam.com [mailto:lcr...@tuvam.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 12:27 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Definition for Safety Critical Component All, Does anyone have a concise definition of Safety Critical Component? I understand that the definition of this term is highly dependent on context, so let me frame it a bit I am interested in the components that may be in high-tech industrial equipment such as those used in the semiconductor manufacturing industry. And as for regulatory space I am considering the typical application of electrical design standards such as EN 60204, NFPA 79, ULK 508, EN 61010 as well as similar standards that may address the design of pneumatic, mechanical and process chemical delivery systems. I am also considering three potential populations. Operators - who interact with the tool only to get it to perform its intended function (this group can also include 'passers by' Maintenance personnel - who work with the tool to perform prescribed, well document procedures intended to keep the tool in good working order. Service personnel - who do anything necessary to get a broken tool back into operating condition. Thanks for any ideas. -Lauren Crane TUV America / TUV Product Service CRITICAL COMPONENTS_DEFEX.doc Description: MS-Word document
Re: Definition for Safety Critical Component
From: Douglas Beckwith@MITEL on 10/31/2001 12:00 PM I agree with everthing that has been said so far. The trouble comes with what the agency deems to be critical. My experience with approvals agencies has been that their definition of Safety Critical is somewhat unscientific. I have often found that they tend to arbitrarily define a component as safety critical because they don't understand the function of circuit and what the component does in the application. The application of the compnent is best understood by the designer, not the approvals agency. I have spent many hours arguing with a well known Canadian safety agency on this question. I spent a number of years in the defence industry doing fault tree analysis and failure modes, effects and criticality analysis of components and circuits, and this to me seems like a more scientific way to approach the definition of what components ae safety critical. I tend to follow this process in definining the critical components, by looking at their failure modes and contribution to the overall flammability of the circuit, and I do not allow the safety approval agency to define them, primarily for the reason above. In fairness to the agencies, most of the time I come up with the same list as they come up with, but at least I have a technical reason behind the decision. I also only specify the critical parameters in the safety report, e.g. rating only, not manufacturer where it is not critical. Doug Beckwith geor...@lexmark.com on 10/31/2001 08:40:17 AM Please respond to geor...@lexmark.com To: emc-p...@ieee.org cc:(bcc: Douglas Beckwith/Kan/Mitel) Subject: Re: Definition for Safety Critical Component There are at least two possible definitions of this term. Under the 60950 standards, these would be the components listed by an approving agency deemed to be safety critical. The other is any part, listed or not, that contributes to the overall safety of the device. For example, a metal housing will not show up on a critical parts list, but can have sharp edges. As pointed out earlier, even a caution label could be considered such a part. Based on the single fault theory on which the standards are based, the failure of a single safety critical component should NOT introduce a hazard. For example, if the insulation between primary and exposed metal parts fails in a Class I design, the fault current will go to ground via the earthing path, and blow the fuse. At no time should the exposed metal carry hazardous voltages. The failure of two safety critical components can result in a hazard. If in the example given the ground path does not exist (a second fault), the bare metal may bear hazardous voltages. George Alspaugh --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
RE: Definition for Safety Critical Component
George friends As I actually said in one of my earlier messages, the metal enclosure/housing CAN be a safety critical part AND can also be a compliance critical part, so I think it SHOULD show up on the critical parts list. John Allen -Original Message- From: geor...@lexmark.com [mailto:geor...@lexmark.com] Sent: 31 October 2001 13:40 To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Re: Definition for Safety Critical Component There are at least two possible definitions of this term. Under the 60950 standards, these would be the components listed by an approving agency deemed to be safety critical. The other is any part, listed or not, that contributes to the overall safety of the device. For example, a metal housing will not show up on a critical parts list, but can have sharp edges. As pointed out earlier, even a caution label could be considered such a part. Based on the single fault theory on which the standards are based, the failure of a single safety critical component should NOT introduce a hazard. For example, if the insulation between primary and exposed metal parts fails in a Class I design, the fault current will go to ground via the earthing path, and blow the fuse. At no time should the exposed metal carry hazardous voltages. The failure of two safety critical components can result in a hazard. If in the example given the ground path does not exist (a second fault), the bare metal may bear hazardous voltages. George Alspaugh --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
RE: Definition for Safety Critical Component
Hi Folks I agree strongly with Oscar's comments and previous approach - Compliance critical is a far better term. It also means that you can have EN60950 compliance critical, EMC compliance critical etc, as you like without confusion. However the widespread existing use of safety critical component among the test and certification authorities, will still result in confusion for a long time - maybe we need an education programme for everybody? How about it: UL/VDE/BSI/etc., etc? Regards John Allen Thales Defence Communications Division Bracknell, UK -Original Message- From: oover...@lexmark.com [mailto:oover...@lexmark.com] Sent: 31 October 2001 12:43 To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Definition for Safety Critical Component Gregg brings up a good point. I haven't followed all of this thread and I hope I'm not repeating someone else; but, just in case: Some of the things necessary to comply with the standards have less to do with safety than they do with compliance to the standard. Or in some cases the safety implications are less obvious. At a previous place of employment, in these cases we called them Compliance Critical Components. Unfortunately this was often easier to get through the management gauntlet that a Safety Critical Component. If management could not see the safety implications (or didn't buy into the rationale) they would not buy into the term Safety Critical. When we told them that third party approval would not be obtained unless this requirement was met, they basically had to acquiesce and accept it. It was from this understanding that we coined the term Compliance Critical Component It was a cop-out but it got the job done. You just have to be careful and not overuse the term. Oscar Please note that this case in not representative of my current employer/management. These opinions are mine and are in no way to be construed to represent those of my employer. Gregg Kervill gkervill%eu-link@interlock.lexmark.com on 10/30/2001 11:25:48 PM Please respond to Gregg Kervill gkervill%eu-link@interlock.lexmark.com To: 'Doug McKean' dmckean%corp.auspex@interlock.lexmark.com, emc-pstc%majordomo.ieee@interlock.lexmark.com cc:(bcc: Oscar Overton/Lex/Lexmark) Subject: RE: Definition for Safety Critical Component Sorry the change to HTML was necessary to format the table. Critical Components will including Paint (colour of the product), Labels and Instructions. There can be no definitive answer - hazards are in the eye of the beholder. The following is a good starting point - use the similarity rule to identify pneumatic and other products that store or control energy - electrical connectors - securing clips for hoses REMEMBER that safety devices that OPEN pneumatic pressure can create worse hazards that they prevent. G IEC or European Component Standard UL94 Flammability Standard Component Possible Operator-Service warning 94-V2 Air Filter Y Mains Capacitors Stored Charge Y CRT's Stored Charge Y Circuit Breakers Y Conductive Coatings Y Connectors Y Transformers and PSU Y UL Recognised Fans above 30 V UL Recognised low power fans 94 VW1 Fibre optic cable Eye Damage Y Fuses and Fuse holders Replacement Y Safety Switches Y Line filters Lithium Batteries Replacement - disposal instructions Y Mains connectors UL94-various ALL Plastic Parts Y Power cords and Mains Cables Y Mains voltage motors UL94-V1 Printed Circuit boards Y Relays in safety applications or switching hazardous voltages Y Products using primary power Y Switches in safety applications or switching hazardous voltages Isolate before removing cover Y Transient voltage surge suppressers Y Thermal controls Min - Maximum Y External cables UL94-VW1 Internal equipment wiring Eurolink Ltd. -One Link-199 Countries P.O. Box 310 Reedville, Virginia 22539 Phone: (804) 453-3141 Fax: (804) 453-9039 Web:www.eu-link.com -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Doug McKean Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 6:43 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: Definition for Safety Critical Component Definition for Safety Critical ComponentI'll add to Richard's definition by saying a Safety Critical Component is a component necessary for the safety approval of the product. It's a component that prevents a person (end user or service person) from being exposed to a hazardous condition either during normal operation or from a fault. - Doug McKean
Re: Definition for Safety Critical Component
There are at least two possible definitions of this term. Under the 60950 standards, these would be the components listed by an approving agency deemed to be safety critical. The other is any part, listed or not, that contributes to the overall safety of the device. For example, a metal housing will not show up on a critical parts list, but can have sharp edges. As pointed out earlier, even a caution label could be considered such a part. Based on the single fault theory on which the standards are based, the failure of a single safety critical component should NOT introduce a hazard. For example, if the insulation between primary and exposed metal parts fails in a Class I design, the fault current will go to ground via the earthing path, and blow the fuse. At no time should the exposed metal carry hazardous voltages. The failure of two safety critical components can result in a hazard. If in the example given the ground path does not exist (a second fault), the bare metal may bear hazardous voltages. George Alspaugh --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
RE: Definition for Safety Critical Component
Gregg brings up a good point. I haven't followed all of this thread and I hope I'm not repeating someone else; but, just in case: Some of the things necessary to comply with the standards have less to do with safety than they do with compliance to the standard. Or in some cases the safety implications are less obvious. At a previous place of employment, in these cases we called them Compliance Critical Components. Unfortunately this was often easier to get through the management gauntlet that a Safety Critical Component. If management could not see the safety implications (or didn't buy into the rationale) they would not buy into the term Safety Critical. When we told them that third party approval would not be obtained unless this requirement was met, they basically had to acquiesce and accept it. It was from this understanding that we coined the term Compliance Critical Component It was a cop-out but it got the job done. You just have to be careful and not overuse the term. Oscar Please note that this case in not representative of my current employer/management. These opinions are mine and are in no way to be construed to represent those of my employer. Gregg Kervill gkervill%eu-link@interlock.lexmark.com on 10/30/2001 11:25:48 PM Please respond to Gregg Kervill gkervill%eu-link@interlock.lexmark.com To: 'Doug McKean' dmckean%corp.auspex@interlock.lexmark.com, emc-pstc%majordomo.ieee@interlock.lexmark.com cc:(bcc: Oscar Overton/Lex/Lexmark) Subject: RE: Definition for Safety Critical Component Sorry the change to HTML was necessary to format the table. Critical Components will including Paint (colour of the product), Labels and Instructions. There can be no definitive answer - hazards are in the eye of the beholder. The following is a good starting point - use the similarity rule to identify pneumatic and other products that store or control energy - electrical connectors - securing clips for hoses REMEMBER that safety devices that OPEN pneumatic pressure can create worse hazards that they prevent. G IEC or European Component Standard UL94 Flammability Standard Component Possible Operator-Service warning 94-V2 Air Filter Y Mains Capacitors Stored Charge Y CRT's Stored Charge Y Circuit Breakers Y Conductive Coatings Y Connectors Y Transformers and PSU Y UL Recognised Fans above 30 V UL Recognised low power fans 94 VW1 Fibre optic cable Eye Damage Y Fuses and Fuse holders Replacement Y Safety Switches Y Line filters Lithium Batteries Replacement - disposal instructions Y Mains connectors UL94-various ALL Plastic Parts Y Power cords and Mains Cables Y Mains voltage motors UL94-V1 Printed Circuit boards Y Relays in safety applications or switching hazardous voltages Y Products using primary power Y Switches in safety applications or switching hazardous voltages Isolate before removing cover Y Transient voltage surge suppressers Y Thermal controls Min - Maximum Y External cables UL94-VW1 Internal equipment wiring Eurolink Ltd. -One Link-199 Countries P.O. Box 310 Reedville, Virginia 22539 Phone: (804) 453-3141 Fax: (804) 453-9039 Web:www.eu-link.com -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Doug McKean Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 6:43 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: Definition for Safety Critical Component Definition for Safety Critical ComponentI'll add to Richard's definition by saying a Safety Critical Component is a component necessary for the safety approval of the product. It's a component that prevents a person (end user or service person) from being exposed to a hazardous condition either during normal operation or from a fault. - Doug McKean --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported
RE: Definition for Safety Critical Component - Safety Critical Fe atures
Hi Folks This is sent separately to my reply regarding IEC 61508 etc., as it addresses an entirely different issue. The decision as to what should be classified as a safety critical component (SCC) in the context of 60950 (etc.) should take into account the overall construction and use of the equipment, and so we always devise another list - that of the safety critical features (SCF). The attached file gives examples of the features I would consider critical for a large cabinet (for example). This cabinet has to comply with EN60950, and also with the requirements of its specific intended application (which means that it has to be transported from time to time). However, for your own equipments and applications you might to delete some features and add other. Then, AFTER you have defined the SCF list, you can begin to list out the list of safety critical components - which are the components which are critical to ensuring compliance with the SCF list. When you look at the latter you may have a few surprises - for example, how many people realise the components forming the equipment enclosure are safety critical components? They most definitely are, and not just for flammability etc. - the enclosure openings and fixings can also be critical. The combination of the SCF and SCC lists then provides a valuable aid-memoire to the equipment designer at the time of product certification and then - later - when SOMEONE ELSE is detailed to review, modify or update that equipment, to avoid the latter operations taking the equipment out of compliance with the appropriate safety standard(s) and related requirements Regards John Allen Thales Defence Communications Division. -Original Message- From: lcr...@tuvam.com [mailto:lcr...@tuvam.com] Sent: 30 October 2001 17:27 To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Definition for Safety Critical Component All, Does anyone have a concise definition of Safety Critical Component? I understand that the definition of this term is highly dependent on context, so let me frame it a bit I am interested in the components that may be in high-tech industrial equipment such as those used in the semiconductor manufacturing industry. And as for regulatory space I am considering the typical application of electrical design standards such as EN 60204, NFPA 79, ULK 508, EN 61010 as well as similar standards that may address the design of pneumatic, mechanical and process chemical delivery systems. I am also considering three potential populations. Operators - who interact with the tool only to get it to perform its intended function (this group can also include 'passers by' Maintenance personnel - who work with the tool to perform prescribed, well document procedures intended to keep the tool in good working order. Service personnel - who do anything necessary to get a broken tool back into operating condition. Thanks for any ideas. -Lauren Crane TUV America / TUV Product Service SAFETY FEATURES LIST.doc Description: MS-Word document
RE: Definition for Safety Critical Component
Hi Folks A few words of warning on the context of the above Most of the definitions or descriptions for safety critical component given so far are reasonably accurate and straightforward in the context of strict compliance with IEC/EN/UL EQUIPMENT safety standards such as 60335, 60950 61010 etc. HOWEVER, the term takes on an entirely different meaning in the context of RISK ASSESSMENT standards such are IEC 61508 and DEF Stan 00-56. Under these standards, a safety critical component may be a small component in an equipment which may affect the overall safety of the system, in which that equipment is incorporated - nevertheless the failure of that component may not result in a fire/shock/mechanical hazard in the the context of 60950! In other words, the equipment might fail safe but the system could fail to an overall dangerous condition. This won't affect most of you but you should be aware that you might meet the term in this context - and that may become common as more large projects are subject to formal risk assessments to 61508, DEF 00-56 or MIL STD 882. Regards John Allen Thales Defence Communications Division Bracknell UK -Original Message- From: lcr...@tuvam.com [mailto:lcr...@tuvam.com] Sent: 30 October 2001 17:27 To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Definition for Safety Critical Component All, Does anyone have a concise definition of Safety Critical Component? I understand that the definition of this term is highly dependent on context, so let me frame it a bit I am interested in the components that may be in high-tech industrial equipment such as those used in the semiconductor manufacturing industry. And as for regulatory space I am considering the typical application of electrical design standards such as EN 60204, NFPA 79, ULK 508, EN 61010 as well as similar standards that may address the design of pneumatic, mechanical and process chemical delivery systems. I am also considering three potential populations. Operators - who interact with the tool only to get it to perform its intended function (this group can also include 'passers by' Maintenance personnel - who work with the tool to perform prescribed, well document procedures intended to keep the tool in good working order. Service personnel - who do anything necessary to get a broken tool back into operating condition. Thanks for any ideas. -Lauren Crane TUV America / TUV Product Service --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
Re: Definition for Safety Critical Component
Definition for Safety Critical ComponentI'll add to Richard's definition by saying a Safety Critical Component is a component necessary for the safety approval of the product. It's a component that prevents a person (end user or service person) from being exposed to a hazardous condition either during normal operation or from a fault. - Doug McKean --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
RE: Definition for Safety Critical Component
A safety critical component is a component were the failure during normal use, forseeable misuse and fault conditions is likely to result in a hazardous condition for the operator and/or service person (includes maintenance). Richard Woods Sensormatic Electronics -Original Message- From: lcr...@tuvam.com [mailto:lcr...@tuvam.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 12:27 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Definition for Safety Critical Component All, Does anyone have a concise definition of Safety Critical Component? I understand that the definition of this term is highly dependent on context, so let me frame it a bit I am interested in the components that may be in high-tech industrial equipment such as those used in the semiconductor manufacturing industry. And as for regulatory space I am considering the typical application of electrical design standards such as EN 60204, NFPA 79, ULK 508, EN 61010 as well as similar standards that may address the design of pneumatic, mechanical and process chemical delivery systems. I am also considering three potential populations. Operators - who interact with the tool only to get it to perform its intended function (this group can also include 'passers by' Maintenance personnel - who work with the tool to perform prescribed, well document procedures intended to keep the tool in good working order. Service personnel - who do anything necessary to get a broken tool back into operating condition. Thanks for any ideas. -Lauren Crane TUV America / TUV Product Service
Re: definition of type certification
Susan, Simply put, a type certification is a 100% test by an independent certification agency against the applicable standard, of a single sample unit representative of future production units. The key words are single sample. Typically, forthcoming production units are tested during manufature only to a few key standard items, e.g. hi-pot and earthing resistance for ITE. This is NOT type testing. George Beard, Susan (TRANS, GEHH) susan.beard%gehh.ge@interlock.lexmark.com on 05/02/2001 03:13:09 PM Please respond to Beard, Susan (TRANS, GEHH) susan.beard%gehh.ge@interlock.lexmark.com To: 'emc-p...@ieee.org' emc-pstc%ieee@interlock.lexmark.com cc:(bcc: George Alspaugh/Lex/Lexmark) Subject: definition of type certification Forgive me if this is a naive question (given my background of compliance to MIL-STDs), but I keep hearing references to type certification which seems to be relative to generic FCC, ACA, etc. type compliance testing of comm devices. I am more familiar with references to specific FCC Part 15 or other ... are these references synonymous? Susan H. Beard 321-435-7762 Fax 321-435-7957 susan.be...@gehh.ge.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall, --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.rcic.com/ click on Virtual Conference Hall,
RE: Definition of Residential location
Another slant on this issue is the price of the product. The FCC looks at the function, price and marketing of an ITE product. The maker can claim it is intended for commercial enterprises, and should be Class A. However, if it is affordable for the typical consumer PC workstation, OR is marketing in retail channels, the FCC will require conformity to Class B requirements. In other words, there are two ways for electrical devices to be within 10m of people in their homes watching TV. Either nearby (but outside) the property, or inside the dwelling itself. In the late 70's some consumers were experimenting with electronic ping pong games, Ataris, and Commodores, all of which might use the sole family TV set for the display. Who could have predicted that 20 years later, consumers would have one or more PC workstations in their homes consisting of PCs, monitors, keyboards, mice, laser printers, scanners, and/or fax machines? MORAL: Be careful what you claim is Class A. George Alspaugh Lexmark International Inc. -- Forwarded by George Alspaugh/Lex/Lexmark on 11/17/99 08:27 AM --- roger.viles%wwgsolutions@interlock.lexmark.com on 11/17/99 07:48:55 AM Please respond to roger.viles%wwgsolutions@interlock.lexmark.com To: jack.cook%cax.usa.xerox@interlock.lexmark.com cc: emc-pstc%majordomo.ieee@interlock.lexmark.com, woods%sensormatic@interlock.lexmark.com (bcc: George Alspaugh/Lex/Lexmark) Subject: RE: Definition of Residential location There is a further issue because the generic emissions standard EN 50081-1 covers the Residential, Commercial and Light Industrial environment, i.e. the only one it does not cover is the real industrial (EN 50081-2). This means that all normal commercial applications require EN 50081-1 which specifically calls up Class B of EN 55022. The referred standard EN 55022 has classes A and B with a different split: The tougher Class B is mandated only for the residential environment. Normal professional ITE products for commercial office use (not residential) are allowed to meet Class A. As well as the 10m distance from broadcast receivers there is also an expectation that Class A products do not use the same low voltage mains power supply system as residential premises. This is an issue in Europe where apartments and offices are often in the same building or block. This is spelt out in some EN documents, including EN 61326-1 section 3.4 which defines Class A equipment as follows: Equipment suitable for use in establishments other than domestic, and those directly connected to a low voltage power supply network which supplies buildings used for domestic purposes [CISPR 11]. This means that Class A legal compliance is often not adequate for some markets. Not that domestic here means residential and not US only. Roger - This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc (without the quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, jim_bac...@monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators).
RE: Definition of Residential location
There is a further issue because the generic emissions standard EN 50081-1 covers the Residential, Commercial and Light Industrial environment, i.e. the only one it does not cover is the real industrial (EN 50081-2). This means that all normal commercial applications require EN 50081-1 which specifically calls up Class B of EN 55022. The referred standard EN 55022 has classes A and B with a different split: The tougher Class B is mandated only for the residential environment. Normal professional ITE products for commercial office use (not residential) are allowed to meet Class A. As well as the 10m distance from broadcast receivers there is also an expectation that Class A products do not use the same low voltage mains power supply system as residential premises. This is an issue in Europe where apartments and offices are often in the same building or block. This is spelt out in some EN documents, including EN 61326-1 section 3.4 which defines Class A equipment as follows: Equipment suitable for use in establishments other than domestic, and those directly connected to a low voltage power supply network which supplies buildings used for domestic purposes [CISPR 11]. This means that Class A legal compliance is often not adequate for some markets. Not that domestic here means residential and not US only. Roger - This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc (without the quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, jim_bac...@monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators).
RE: Definition of Residential location
Richard, There's a note in EN55022 after paragraph 4.1 which reads as follows: NOTE - The domestic environment is an environment where the use of broadcast radio and television receivers may be expected within a distance of 10 m of the apparatus concerned. Jack Cook Xerox Corp. --- woods%sensormatic@interlock.lexmark.com on 11/16/99 01:53:28 PM Please respond to woods%sensormatic@interlock.lexmark.com To: emc-pstc%majordomo.ieee@interlock.lexmark.com cc:(bcc: George Alspaugh/Lex/Lexmark) Subject: Definition of Residental location What is the official definition of a residential location as it is used in the EN emission standards (e.g., EN50081-1)? Richard Woods - - This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc (without the quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, jim_bac...@monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators).
Re: Definition of hold-up time
Hello, From Keith Billings Switchmode Power Supply Handbook: One of the major advantages of switchmod supplies is their ability to maintain the output voltages constant for a short period after line failure. This holdup time is typically 20ms minimum, but depends on the part of the input cycle where the power supply failure occurs and the loading and the supply voltage before the line failure. ... most specifications define holdup time from nominal input voltage and loading. Holdup times may be considerably less if the supply voltage is close to its minimum value immediately prior to failure. From Power-One Technical reference Guide- It is important to specify the conditions under which the holdup time is measured. Since the AC input may fail at any point during a cycle, it is convenient to use the last AC peak as the reference point for measuring holdup. ... Longer holdup time is difficult to achieve without tradeoffs, the primary one being cost. ... I suggest you determine what is needed for your specific design and come to agreement amoung your team. Are you designing or specifying? either way, the application is key since some chip families require a certain holdup time to prevent latching. If this is what you are trying to avoid, consult the chip manufacturer for their definition of holdup. John Loiselle Product safety engineer 3Com Corporation - This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.com with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc (without the quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or roger.volgst...@compaq.co (the list administrators).
RE: Definition of hold-up time
Dan, In my experience the hold-up time is that period of time where during a power outage the product continues to operate within specified limits. Of course the specified limits are determined as a part of the contractual agreement between the supplier and the user. Some people like to specify this as number of lost cycles on the line or as a period of time beginning at one of 4 points on the sine. 0, 90, 180 and 270 degrees. Also there is always the question, do you compound the issue by adding requirements for 50 Hz and low line operation?. Other questions that may be asked are how long does the product operate (hold-up) during a 80 or 50% power line sag. If you check with the IEEE, I believe the power quality people have white papers on this sort of thing. But beware, most of the time when you implement solutions for power line sag you are adding bulk capacitance on the input section of a power converter. This can backfire with extremely poor power factor ratings and extremely long bus discharge times both of which affect regulatory compliance, the first for line harmonics and the other for safety. Doug Powell, Compliance Engineer Advanced Energy Industries, Inc. Fort Collins, Colorado USA - This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.com with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc (without the quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or roger.volgst...@compaq.co (the list administrators).
Re: Definition of hold-up time
I wasn't sure about this, but went on the web to check. Power One's on-line glossary uses within regulation as their criteria. See: http://www.power-one.com/tech/glossary.html Regards, Doug On Fri, 28 Aug 1998, Dan Mitchell wrote: I have a collegue that would like a definition of Hold-up time as it pertains to a power supply. It is agreed that the time should be measured at 120VAC input and full load on the output. Time starts when the AC input shuts off (preferably at the + or - peak). Here is where the question comes in. Should the hold-up time stop when the output voltage drops out of regulation, or when the output voltage drops to 75% of the regulated output? Personally, I would use 90% of regulated, but 2 of our engineers are disagreeing and both are very adament that they are correct. I hope one of our subscribers may have a verifiable answer. Thanks in advance.\ Daniel W. Mitchell Product Safety EOS Corp. - This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.com with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc (without the quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or roger.volgst...@compaq.co (the list administrators). - This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.com with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc (without the quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or roger.volgst...@compaq.co (the list administrators).
