Re: [Emc-users] Conversion Suggesions?

[Jon Elson]

On 01/22/2014 08:41 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
> 570 Oz-In is a lot, but of course, that is only at
> standstill.  But, they
> should do fine, especially with a belt reduction.  5 A will
> require the
> "big" Gecko 203 drive.  For that, you might consider Gecko's
> servo
> motors and our PWM servo drives.  The price would be pretty
> close, and the performance will be a lot better.  I can
> advise on
> specific models, encoders, etc.
>
>
Sorry, I screwed that up a LOT.  Gecko does not sell motors, 
of course!
I meant Keling, which is now
http://www.automationtechnologiesinc.com/

they have a very affordable size 23 brushless motor, the
KL23BLS115, good for 180 Oz-In (but that is a RUNNING
rating, not a standstill rating).  $52 without encoder.
You can get a good encoder with index from Digi-Key
for about $38.  I have found this motor to work quite well
with my servo amps and our Universal PWM Controller.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Conversion Suggesions?

[Jon Elson]

On 01/22/2014 05:58 PM, Jeshua Lacock wrote:
>
>
> Hmmm, what machine are you referring to? I just checked and I have full 
> 8x12x3 inches of travel for the mill.
Well, yours seems to have the adjustable head height, ours 
doesn't.
It also sounds like yours may be overall a larger machine 
that ours.
> I have been using it to lathe hardened steel shafts and has been turning like 
> a dream so far. Haven't yet milled anything though.
Yes, it seemed it made a better lathe than a mill for us, too.
But, since I have a Bridgeport mill and now a 3500 Lb. 
Sheldon lathe,
maybe I'm just prejudiced.
> I figured backlash was common to just about all reasonably priced mills, and 
> I was wondering what folks did with them to compensate with CNC.
The X and Y on my 150 Lb minimill was surprisingly low.
See  http://pico-systems.com/minimill.html
   I usually only use it at shows to demo my CNC hardware and
LinuxCNC, so it is lightly used, but backlash is still just 
a couple
thousandths of an inch.
>I just checked the backlash on my Z and with the micro-adjust knob I can 
> not feel any discernible backlash. I certainly can feel backlash on the Z 
> quick feed and on the X and Y leadscrews.
Well, that's where the backlash is, so twiddling the fine 
feed knob
is misleading you.  What you need to do is put a dial test 
indicator
on the quill and push up and down and see how much the indicator
moves.
> Eventually I would like to replace them with anti-backlash ballscrews. I 
> would like to get the machine up and running first if I can expect reasonable 
> results from it. I think I read somewhere a while back someone compensated 
> for the backlash in software and virtually eliminated the problem without 
> having to replace the leadscrews.
No, that is a fantasy.  For X-Y positioning work, ONLY, you 
can sort of
eliminate backlash, but the fact is the screws don't 
constrain the table,
so cutting forces can move it over the range of the 
backlash.  Even
without cutting forces, the motors would have to move at 
infinite speed
to get from one side of the backlash to the other to create 
correct
motion.  So, in my opinion, backlash compensation is a 
fantasy that
doesn't work in actual practice.
> Speaking of anti-backlash ballscrews, have you guys seen this printable:
>
> http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:125529
Threadless?  Then, what gives you predictable movement?  
Nothing,
I gather.  So, you can move left or right, but without a 
measuring
device on the table, you have no idea how much it has moved.
>
>
> Yeah I was planning on going with Gecko. Good to know, thanks Jon!
>
> I guess the biggest uncertainty right now is how much torque I might need on 
> a machine like this. I was guessing something like the first stepper listed 
> here:
>
> http://www.kelinginc.net/NEMA23Motor.html
>
>
>
570 Oz-In is a lot, but of course, that is only at 
standstill.  But, they
should do fine, especially with a belt reduction.  5 A will 
require the
"big" Gecko 203 drive.  For that, you might consider Gecko's 
servo
motors and our PWM servo drives.  The price would be pretty
close, and the performance will be a lot better.  I can 
advise on
specific models, encoders, etc.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Conversion Suggesions?

[jeremy youngs]

i did this with my mill and am truly impressed with its repeatability. i
think you can give up on software compensation for backlash though with
your factory screws . simply make the nuts and go from there it will save
much time and effort


jeremy youngs
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Re: [Emc-users] Conversion Suggesions?

[Jeshua Lacock]

On Jan 22, 2014, at 5:39 PM, Gene Heskett  wrote:

> There is a link for how to make nuts that fit your screws, usually with 
> less than a thou of backlash, using acetal/delrin for the nut material.
> 
>  nuts-the-easy-way>
> 
> These have the advantage of less friction than a std nut under load, very 
> low wear rate and virtually zero backlash when molded around your existing 
> screws.  I don't know as I would try and make a half nut assembly that way, 
> but a full nut on the Z with my ball screw and nut on my lathe has not been 
> a problem as I just use the keyboard to move it.

Nice!


Jeshua Lacock
Founder/Engineer
3DTOPO Incorporated

Phone: 208.462.4171


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Re: [Emc-users] Conversion Suggesions?

[Jeshua Lacock]

On Jan 22, 2014, at 5:39 PM, Gene Heskett  wrote:

> On Wednesday 22 January 2014 19:14:34 Jeshua Lacock did opine:
> 
>> Speaking of anti-backlash ballscrews, have you guys seen this printable:
>> 
>> http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:125529
> 
> That is a cute idea, but you likely have zero real repeatability.  And that 
> IS the name of this game.  The only place that would be usable would be 
> with real servos getting feedback from a linear scale encoder driven by the 
> table you are moving.  That of course adds 300 to 500 USD per axis.

Hi Gene,

Anecdotally so far repeatability seems perfect. You can see the "virtual 
threads" marked (by a little oil on the rod). As far as I can tell unless you 
exceed the pressure and make it slip - it stays perfectly in the "virtual 
threads"...

In any event I am going to do some tests with a dial indicator that I can share 
here if there is any interest. Also, I am going to place a level across a set 
of them, place a laser pointer on the level and mark the point on the wall. 
After moving to and from that point - any angular difference will be greatly 
exaggerated and should be completely obvious.


Cheers,

Jeshua Lacock
Founder/Engineer
3DTOPO Incorporated

Phone: 208.462.4171


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Re: [Emc-users] Conversion Suggesions?

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 22 January 2014 19:14:34 Jeshua Lacock did opine:

> On Jan 22, 2014, at 10:25 AM, Jon Elson  wrote:
> > On 01/21/2014 11:10 PM, Jeshua Lacock wrote:
> >> Greetings,
> >> 
> >> I am the proud new owner of an Bolton Tools AT750 combination lathe
> >> and mill see here:
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> I am super impressed with the machine so far.
> > 
> > Ugh, we have a somewhat similar machine at work, it is
> > pretty awful.
> > I wish you'd asked here before buying it.  there are so many
> > limitations in workspace, etc. it is a real pain to do
> > anything bigger than
> > a thimble in size.
> 
> Hi Jon,
> 
> Hmmm, what machine are you referring to? I just checked and I have full
> 8x12x3 inches of travel for the mill.
> 
> I have been using it to lathe hardened steel shafts and has been turning
> like a dream so far. Haven't yet milled anything though.
> 
> > Will you be using the original leadscrews?  They have a lot of
> > backlash.  If you tighten a vise on the "table" it binds the
> > Y travel.  The Z mechanism is really laughable, backlash between
> > the quill and pinion is probably several mm.  I did a
> > square-column
> > mill some time ago and replaced the Z rack and pinion with an
> > eBay ballscrew.  The X and Y screws on that machine were quite
> > tolerable.
> 
> I figured backlash was common to just about all reasonably priced mills,
> and I was wondering what folks did with them to compensate with CNC.  I
> just checked the backlash on my Z and with the micro-adjust knob I can
> not feel any discernible backlash. I certainly can feel backlash on the
> Z quick feed and on the X and Y leadscrews.
> 
> Eventually I would like to replace them with anti-backlash ballscrews. I
> would like to get the machine up and running first if I can expect
> reasonable results from it. I think I read somewhere a while back
> someone compensated for the backlash in software and virtually
> eliminated the problem without having to replace the leadscrews.
> 
> Speaking of anti-backlash ballscrews, have you guys seen this printable:
> 
> http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:125529

That is a cute idea, but you likely have zero real repeatability.  And that 
IS the name of this game.  The only place that would be usable would be 
with real servos getting feedback from a linear scale encoder driven by the 
table you are moving.  That of course adds 300 to 500 USD per axis.

There is a link for how to make nuts that fit your screws, usually with 
less than a thou of backlash, using acetal/delrin for the nut material.



These have the advantage of less friction than a std nut under load, very 
low wear rate and virtually zero backlash when molded around your existing 
screws.  I don't know as I would try and make a half nut assembly that way, 
but a full nut on the Z with my ball screw and nut on my lathe has not been 
a problem as I just use the keyboard to move it.

I have the stuff on hand, and will fit at least the X/Y on my small mill 
come warm weather again.  They are pushing 15 yo, and are very close to 
shot.

> I have printed them out - and they work amazing! On a 3/4" shaft it
> takes over 100 pounds of force before it slips - and you can pretty
> much make it tight as you like within reason. NIce thing is it just
> slips too - no damage when overloaded. It is also configureable for
> travel per revolution.
> 
> > The Pico USC will be fine, but depending on the drivers used,
> > may not be necessary.  If you use Gecko drives with the 10 X
> > microstepping, the USC starts to look good due to the required
> > step rate.  The Gecko drivers are VERY good.
> 
> Yeah I was planning on going with Gecko. Good to know, thanks Jon!
> 
> I guess the biggest uncertainty right now is how much torque I might
> need on a machine like this. I was guessing something like the first
> stepper listed here:
> 
> http://www.kelinginc.net/NEMA23Motor.html
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Jeshua Lacock
> Founder/Engineer
> 3DTOPO Incorporated
> 
> Phone: 208.462.4171
> 
> 
> 
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Cheers, Gene
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Genes Web page 

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c

Re: [Emc-users] Machinekit Gui

[Charles Steinkuehler]

On 1/22/2014 5:12 PM, Mark Tucker wrote:
> Is it possible to switch to another Gui in machinekit?
> I have tried altering the Display section in the BeBoPr-Bridge.Ini to 
> Gscreen but no joy.(Just loads of errors).
> I Really have a dislike for the Mouse Driven Axis Gui,Mouse and metal 
> cutting machines don't mix,so i was hoping to Modify Gscreen and add 
> some keyboard stuff in later.

Try running some of the gscreen simulations.  On the BeagleBone one of
the sim configurations failed horribly for me, but the other at least
seemed to launch.  If you can get the simulation examples running, you
should be able to port the gscreen setup to a real machine configuration.

Note that Gscreen is under heavy active development, so if you really
want to use it, I suggest pulling a copy of ubc3 from git and building
from source.  Anything in my pre-built images is going to be pretty
dated.  You should probably grab Michael's branch from github:

https://github.com/mhaberler/linuxcnc/tree/unified-build-candidate-3

You can also use any of the other GUI displays if you want.  I really
would like something more embedded friendly than Axis, but I keep coming
back to it because it generates the fewest problems overall and I'm
trying to work on lower-level stuff.  If you do get a gscreen
configuration working, let me know...I'm interested in trying it out if
it's stable on the 'Bone.

-- 
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char...@steinkuehler.net

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Re: [Emc-users] Conversion Suggesions?

[Jeshua Lacock]

On Jan 22, 2014, at 10:25 AM, Jon Elson  wrote:

> On 01/21/2014 11:10 PM, Jeshua Lacock wrote:
>> Greetings,
>> 
>> I am the proud new owner of an Bolton Tools AT750 combination lathe and mill 
>> see here:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> I am super impressed with the machine so far.
>> 
>> 
> Ugh, we have a somewhat similar machine at work, it is 
> pretty awful.
> I wish you'd asked here before buying it.  there are so many
> limitations in workspace, etc. it is a real pain to do 
> anything bigger than
> a thimble in size.

Hi Jon,

Hmmm, what machine are you referring to? I just checked and I have full 8x12x3 
inches of travel for the mill.

I have been using it to lathe hardened steel shafts and has been turning like a 
dream so far. Haven't yet milled anything though.

> Will you be using the original leadscrews?  They have a lot of
> backlash.  If you tighten a vise on the "table" it binds the
> Y travel.  The Z mechanism is really laughable, backlash between
> the quill and pinion is probably several mm.  I did a 
> square-column
> mill some time ago and replaced the Z rack and pinion with an
> eBay ballscrew.  The X and Y screws on that machine were quite
> tolerable.

I figured backlash was common to just about all reasonably priced mills, and I 
was wondering what folks did with them to compensate with CNC.  I just checked 
the backlash on my Z and with the micro-adjust knob I can not feel any 
discernible backlash. I certainly can feel backlash on the Z quick feed and on 
the X and Y leadscrews.

Eventually I would like to replace them with anti-backlash ballscrews. I would 
like to get the machine up and running first if I can expect reasonable results 
from it. I think I read somewhere a while back someone compensated for the 
backlash in software and virtually eliminated the problem without having to 
replace the leadscrews.

Speaking of anti-backlash ballscrews, have you guys seen this printable:

http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:125529

I have printed them out - and they work amazing! On a 3/4" shaft it takes over 
100 pounds of force before it slips - and you can pretty much make it tight as 
you like within reason. NIce thing is it just slips too - no damage when 
overloaded. It is also configureable for travel per revolution.

> The Pico USC will be fine, but depending on the drivers used,
> may not be necessary.  If you use Gecko drives with the 10 X
> microstepping, the USC starts to look good due to the required
> step rate.  The Gecko drivers are VERY good.

Yeah I was planning on going with Gecko. Good to know, thanks Jon!

I guess the biggest uncertainty right now is how much torque I might need on a 
machine like this. I was guessing something like the first stepper listed here:

http://www.kelinginc.net/NEMA23Motor.html


Cheers,

Jeshua Lacock
Founder/Engineer
3DTOPO Incorporated

Phone: 208.462.4171


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Re: [Emc-users] Machinekit Gui

[Chris Radek]

On Wed, Jan 22, 2014 at 11:12:07PM +, Mark Tucker wrote:

> I Really have a dislike for the Mouse Driven Axis Gui,Mouse and metal 
> cutting machines don't mix,so i was hoping to Modify Gscreen and add 
> some keyboard stuff in later.

AXIS is totally controllable by keyboard.  Mouse support is
secondary.  See the help menu for a list of the key shortcuts.


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[Emc-users] Machinekit Gui

[Mark Tucker]

Is it possible to switch to another Gui in machinekit?
I have tried altering the Display section in the BeBoPr-Bridge.Ini to 
Gscreen but no joy.(Just loads of errors).
I Really have a dislike for the Mouse Driven Axis Gui,Mouse and metal 
cutting machines don't mix,so i was hoping to Modify Gscreen and add 
some keyboard stuff in later.



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Re: [Emc-users] LinuxCNC shows new, but runs old ngc program

[Philipp Burch]

Hi Marius!

On 01/22/2014 03:42 PM, Marius Alksnys wrote:
> ...
> 
> 
> BTW, I think I found another or related problem - LinuxCNC freezes for 
> some time (roughly 5-20 seconds) for example, when pressing Shift-Home 
> in axis (touch off). And the time required for the same operation 
> differs abnormally. I spent around 5 hours, trying to find the reason, 
> but I couldn't separate it.. Except for something, related to LinuxCNC 
> CPU load. But the load didn't reach more than 40% when locking occurs.

This is interesting. I've faced a similar problem when invoking some
operations using the LinuxCNC python interface:
http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/common/python-interface.html

My gladevcp panels performs a lot of movements using MDI commands, so I
do something like this:

import linuxcnc
lcmd = linuxcnc.command()

#...

lcmd.mode(linuxcnc.MODE_MDI)
lcmd.wait_complete()
lcmd.mdi('G0 X10 Y3.5')
lcmd.wait_complete()

Under certain circumstances (I haven't identified a real pattern), the
mode switch also takes looong. As you say, some 5 to 20 seconds. It
happens, that the mode switch itself (lcmd.mode(...)) takes long and
then lcmd.wait_complete() immediately returns, but sometimes the waiting
takes a few seconds as well. This is very annoying, so I later switched
to send my commands to AXIS using the Tk bindings as found in the
axis-remote script. This clutters the MDI console, but I haven't noticed
such bad delays, so it's worth it.

Maybe this information is useful for someone.

Cheers,
Philipp

> 
> On 2014.01.13 06:33, Chris Radek wrote:
>> On Sun, Jan 12, 2014 at 06:45:33PM -0800, jrmitchellj . wrote:
>>> Yes, 2.5.3.
>>> I duplicated the issue again today.
>> Can you describe a step-by-step procedure that someone else can
>> follow, that will show the problem occurring?
>>
> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Conversion Suggesions?

[Jon Elson]

On 01/21/2014 11:10 PM, Jeshua Lacock wrote:
> Greetings,
>
> I am the proud new owner of an Bolton Tools AT750 combination lathe and mill 
> see here:
>
> 
>
> I am super impressed with the machine so far.
>
>
Ugh, we have a somewhat similar machine at work, it is 
pretty awful.
I wish you'd asked here before buying it.  there are so many
limitations in workspace, etc. it is a real pain to do 
anything bigger than
a thimble in size.

Will you be using the original leadscrews?  They have a lot of
backlash.  If you tighten a vise on the "table" it binds the
Y travel.  The Z mechanism is really laughable, backlash between
the quill and pinion is probably several mm.  I did a 
square-column
mill some time ago and replaced the Z rack and pinion with an
eBay ballscrew.  The X and Y screws on that machine were quite
tolerable.

The Pico USC will be fine, but depending on the drivers used,
may not be necessary.  If you use Gecko drives with the 10 X
microstepping, the USC starts to look good due to the required
step rate.  The Gecko drivers are VERY good.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] LinuxCNC shows new, but runs old ngc program

[Marius Alksnys]

I reproduced this issue on a fresh latest stable and updated LinuxCNC 
installation with config (attached to next post) without additional 
hardware.
I had to install linuxcnc-dev, glade (if I remember correctly), compile 
all .comp files and xhc... .cc file for USB wireless pendant (make and 
make install), you can follow these instructions also:
http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Using_A_XHC-HB04_Wireless_MPG_Pendant

Then run LinuxCNC, home all axes, open 3D_Chips.ngc and run it. You 
should see the machine writing "LinuxCNC".


BTW, I think I found another or related problem - LinuxCNC freezes for 
some time (roughly 5-20 seconds) for example, when pressing Shift-Home 
in axis (touch off). And the time required for the same operation 
differs abnormally. I spent around 5 hours, trying to find the reason, 
but I couldn't separate it.. Except for something, related to LinuxCNC 
CPU load. But the load didn't reach more than 40% when locking occurs.

On 2014.01.13 06:33, Chris Radek wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 12, 2014 at 06:45:33PM -0800, jrmitchellj . wrote:
>> Yes, 2.5.3.
>> I duplicated the issue again today.
> Can you describe a step-by-step procedure that someone else can
> follow, that will show the problem occurring?
>


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